Edwina Ristano's story

22 March 1988

EDWINA'S STORY - 1988          

Q       This is an interview with Edwina Ristano on 22nd March, 1988. 
Hi, Edwina.         
E       Hi.         

Q       Well, I understand you've had some problems with Scientology.         
E       Yes.         

Q       O.K. I'm interested to hear what happened last night.         

E       I had a few friends go down to the Church to ask for my money and they
were surrounded by security guards with guns in holsters who would not answer
their Questions; nobody knew anything about what they wanted and all they did
was write down every little thing said, threaten them for walking on their
sidewalk, said they were trespassing and followed them continuously all the
way out to Vermont and to the other streets where my friends' cars were

Q        You were down at Sunset and Vermont where the Scientology complex

E       No, they went in to the Scientology complex buildings and ...         

Q       To ask for your money ...         

E       To ask for my money which they had promised me and which I had been
asking unsuccessfully for since January           

Q     I see. Well, why did you want your money back?           

E     I had put the money down for services and I am not allowed to have those

Q     You're not allowed ... 

E     I'm not allowed - I'm what they call an illegal P.C. I'm what they
call a resistive case, and I was considered connected to a suppressive
person who is
my father.  I refused to give up my relationship with my father who was an
important medical doctor and ...           

Q     I see. But why did they - one thing at a time here ... 

E     ... the doctors ...           

Q     They just wanted you to stop communicating with your father because ... 

E     They ordered me out of the house - they ordered me to sue him.

Q     Had he ever said anything or done anything to them?           

E     No. But he was a doctor and they hate the AMA. They hate anything
that is in the practice of healing mentally or physically, or spiritually.
I mean
every other religion is looked down on.  These people are ...            

Q     That's not what they say.           

E     That's not what they say, but they're considered wogs.           

Q     Who is considered wogs - one thing at a time here ...           

E     The non-Scientologists.           

Q     What is a wog?           

E    It's a disdainful expression - for instance, people in the G.O. would
say, if they were being held up in traffic, "Run him over, he's just a

Q     And they would run somebody over?           

E     Oh, no. But is was just that kind of crackpot attitude of ...

Q     I see, and you

E     There are menial wogs, no different than a worm, a rock or ...

Q     Okay. Now I know there are doctors who are Scientologists, so why did
they go after your father?           

E     My father was president of the New Jersey ... He was New Jersey State
Medical Examiner and he was president of the Board of Medical Examiners.  He

was invited by Reagan to go on the China trip.  He was called ... he's been
called in my home by one of the Kennedys.           

Q     Very prominent.           

E     Yes.           

Q     But he never spoke against Scientology?           

E     Not in the beginning. Now they ordered me to sue him and to move out of
the house - said he was a suppressive person.  And I did move out of the house
- or I could not continue with Scientology -          

Q     I see.           

E     And then I had to sue him because he ...           

Q     You sued your father?           

E     Well, I withdrew the suit. What I was doing was ... my mother had given
me stocks and my father did, and they were in trust for me from the time I was
a child, so that actually at the age of 21 they were mine.  My father every
year, or quarterly would give me the dividends, and I never minded.  I never
needed anything.  I never questioned value or anything else.          

Q     Right.          

E     Well, they had an accountant get all kinds of data on this. They called
the lawyer ... I didn't even call the lawyer, they called the lawyer, set up
the appointment  ...          

Q     Who is they?          

E     Darby Simpson.          

Q     Oh, you are talking about Scientologists?          

E     Yes. I was advised by the executive director          

Q     In Scientology?          

E     Yes, at the organization where I was.          

Q     In New Jersey?          

E     In New York. And the Ethics Officer was involved, and what they call the

Q     The what?          

E     Ethics Officer.          

Q     An ethics officer? I'd like to hear more about that, but go on.

E     Oh, he was unreal.          

Q     Okay. Let's ...          

E     He, by the way, is no longer a Scientologist. I found that out since.
He is also disgusted.          

Q     Maybe he got some "ethics."          

E     Who knows.          

Q     Now you say that the Scientologists arranged for a lawyer for you to sue
your father?          

E     This particular Scientology organization sat me down and told me they
had already made an appointment with the lawyer, that one of their staff had
already been to see him, and that the executive director herself had been
communicating with him over the phone and in writing and they had this thing
all set up ... that I was going to get my money back (from father?) so I could
put it on the Bridge.          

Q     Your money back from whom?          

E    The money that my father was holding from me which should have been mine
from my mother, and therefore.....And that was more proof that he was a
suppressive person.          

Q     You didn't explain ... your father was ... when your mother died, your
father didn't give you your inheritance because of Scientology.  Is that what
you're saying?          

E     No. My mother had bought - or my father and mother had bought stock -
some in her name, some in his name, some in my name and some in my brother's
name.  There was about $150,000 worth of stocks.  I wasn't even aware of how
much until this staff member, who had been an accountant, went down to ...   I

forget the name ... but to a very big Wall Street company they and I knew
because I had to sign the dividends every quarter.  So I knew there was
money there.  I didn't know how much, nor did I care because I didn't have
any need to know.  I was happy.  I had everything I wanted, and I lived
very well ... so it didn't bother me any until they
(Scientology) needed the money for the auditing.  So they went about their
business to find out all this data.  And this staff member announced to me
again exactly how much I was worth, including the house I lived in, the
jewelry I owned, the stocks and bonds.         

Q      Why did you decide you should sue your father?         

E      Well, because I was to ask him nicely for the stocks ... and he said
"no." Then I was to demand them, and if he said "no" I was not to communicate
with him in any way.         

Q      You were getting counselling at the time?         

E    I was getting counselling, and I would have been doing very well with it,
but what happened was I kept getting upset and crying and actually became
physically ill over the upset going on with my father.  There had never been
any of this between him and me.  I was his little girl and he was my father,
and he did what daddies do.  You know.  And he was an excellent provider.  So
anyway, one word led to another, and I had misunderstood something.  This is
the basis of -why they thought he was a raving lunatic - what they call a
suppressive person. When I was a teenager, my mother went into a coma and
stayed in a coma till she died 10 years later.  She was legally deaf, dumb,
and paralyzed, and he had appointed a legal guardian for my mother and several
executors of the will to handle things for my brother and me in the case of my
father's death so that my mother, my brother and I would be well taken care
Well, they (Scientology) misinterpreted the whole thing - that I had had a
legal guardian and had been declared legally insane, incompetent in the court,
so I not knowing what they thought, and they thinking what they thought, went
after my father.  When I realized what it was, when someone called me and
asked, "Were you or were you not in a court of law on this matter?", I said
"No." He said, "Were you or were you not declared legally insane?" I said,
I was not." He said, "I do not believe what I'm hearing." He said, "What
happened?" So I gave him the story about my mother, and again he said, "I do
not believe what I'm hearing." "He should have done exactly that - you two
minors, and all he was doing was protecting his sick wife and two minor

Q    Okay. So they told you that you would get shock treatment?            

E    I said that I was going to call Sam, my father's friend who was going to
handle this thing nicely between my father and me. He was involved with me all
of my life - he's known me since my birth - and could arrange this thing.  And
they said, "No", I could not use Sam or any other Jersey lawyer, that my
father was too powerful and influential and that once he found out that I was
involved with Scientology he was going to have me committed to an
institution and given

shock treatments. And they went on and on about my father and his
to psychiatry (which was all in their imagination) because it's all a part of
their technology.           

Q     Did you believe that your father would have you committed?           

E     Well, at this point, when they sat down and physically described what
was going to happen to me, I was so shaken up I was not about to ever enter
Jersey again.  I was so scared.  I thought, "Oh, my God, I must have been
pretty naive - all of my life I didn't know who I had been living with -
here's this man who is insane and a crazy person ... 
Q    They turned you against your father?           

E     Yes.           

Q     And you sued him.           

E     Well, I sued him reluctantly because T wanted to have Sam
handle this.  So they had, without my knowing it, set up everything with
another lawyer whom the Executive Director knew personally.  Later an
Q     They paid the lawyer?           

E     No, no, I paid the lawyer for all their calls and visits before I even
knew about all of this - out of monies they assumed I was going to get with
this lawsuit.           

Q     So you filed a suit, and then you withdrew it ... meanwhile you
alienated yourself from your father.           

E     Yes, I had to move out of the house - it was a 28-acre estate with a
reconverted barn, which was now a guest house, a pool. It was magnificent ...
it's worth many millions of dollars - just the land alone today ... and I was
ordered out.  And only in this way could I stand up to a man who was so
diabolical and so dangerous to this planet.           

Q     As you thought your father was?           

E     Well, as the technology said he was, and as they explained, various
things I didn't know, okay, through their various means which I still don't
know all of because these things are shrouded in confidentiality - they have
policies which the average Scientologist doesn't know about - they have
ways of
dealing and manipulating that none of the average Scientologist know about. 
But as the Executive Director said, what was in the tech was that a coup is
okay so long as it turns out allright.           

Q     So the ends justify the means?           

E     Absolutely. And besides that, her (
E.D.) next-in-charge had just had a few, what you would call transgressions
against the Church.  He had left their main organization at Flag - he was one
of the 12 most highly trained individuals in the world, and he had so many
amends to make to the church via Ethics, their ethics system, that this 'was
going to be a terrific bonus for them.
Q      I see. Okay. So you ended up getting money from your father? I withdrew
the suit.  I went to the organization which was senior to this one.  I
in one of the staff members.          

Q      Who was a minister?          

E      Yes, he was my course supervisor. I went and I was crying to him - I
just spent many thousands on auditing.          

Q      I know ... they call it counselling.          

E      Yes. But because of my upsets with my father I was spending what they
call intensives - 12 1/2 hours at so many thousands of dollars.          
Q      How long does it take to do?          

E      They had me scheduled at least two or sometimes up to five times a week
to do what they call intensive counselling ... so that I could not be
interrupted by upsets in life such as this. Anyway, I told him how I felt
about it and he said, "Keep your mouth shut - I am going to the G.O." The G.O.
is, or was at that time, the Guardians Office.  They were the No. 1. in
They have their own policies that supersede any policies there to help
people (?). 
They are there to guard and protect 
Scientology at any cost.            

Q    I understand they don't exist any more.            

E    No. I'm sure my complaints were ...   I mean I had horror stories 
and there were other horror stories equal to mine. Now this organization was
disbanded (the G.O.), but it has been replaced by another one called OSA. 
Office of Special Affairs.  And they are very special - and they have the same
exact departments - the legal department    the P.R. department - the ethics
department, etc.            

Q    The same staff?            

E    Almost entirely when it was first started ... it was the same

Q    I see.            

E    The policy is even more solid than it was in the first place - or even
more separate than they were as the Guardian's Office. They are even more
intent in what they are doing - they have more ammunition because the policy
has been so-called safeguarded even more so because of the G.O. mistakes, and
this time they are seeing to it that those doors are never opened.  They
remain in the condition they call 'fabian.' They cannot be known - they
cannot be
found - they will not even sign their names on memos going from one department
to another - they simply sign "Love" and no name, because if they're
investigated then no one can prove who sent what to whom or who did what to

Q    Okay. Well,            

E    And if they're caught at it even by ministers (their Scientology
counselor in a session?) for some of their devious things - some very
illegal things -
it's allowable so long as they can prove it was for the greatest good of the
greatest number of people and for the planet, which simply means anyone can be
knocked down for the sake of their purposes.            

Q    Okay. We are going to get back later to your statement about illegal
things because I want to give you the opportunity to support your

E    Okay.            

Q    What I'd like to know now is how did you get the money from your

E    We spoke back and forth on the phone and at this one point - he was very
broken-hearted - he said he was sorry he had said "No".  I had taken him aback
- he was surprised that I'd come to his office and asked him this and there
were staff there and he had just never dealt with me on a monetary basis.  We
had never spoken in these terms.  He agreed that the monies were mine and he
was going to meet me and give them to me, but I was forbidden to see him until

after he mailed me the money.            

Q    You mean Scientology forbade you to meet your father to get the money

E    Right.            

Q    Why would they do that?            

E    Because he was in a condition of treason to the planet - he was the enemy
of the planet.            

Q    You mean they really believed this ... ?            

E    At best he was really considered a suppressive person which is an
intentionally vicious person who must do you in before you can do him in. In
other words, they really believed it?            

E     Oh, absolutely. And believe me, they had me quite convinced. Well,
that's not true because all I did was cry because I couldn't relate what I
felt about
my father to what I was trying to believe about my father, and they came on
with such authority and such knowingness and conviction that you couldn't
doubt them.  I know that if I had ever been called to take a stand, I
probably would
have defended them against him because at certain points I was already

Q     They really had taken your mind and your feelings over.           

E    Not my feelings because I was still upset, and the man (father?) was 
crying, he was crying and begging me, and in the last conversation I had he
refused.  He said, "Allright, you will never hear from me again," and hung up
the phone.  And he was ill.         

Q      Did you ever hear from him again? I had family begging me, I had
begging me, saying. "What are you doing, what are you doing?" I kept crying,
going to ethics, spending intensive after intensive, thousands and thousands,
in fact, tens of thousands of dollars on this issue alone.         

Q      And they got what they wanted?         

E      Oh yes, they got $150,000 from me plus many years of free services as
amends for all the misdeeds of my past.  The fact that I was this man's
daughter - the fact that I had joined another organization which they call a
squirrel group, an organization called EST.         

Q      Oh, you were in EST?         

E      Yes. 

Q      For a long time? 

E      Two years.  And I had worked for them for 6 weeks, and I had to pay for
those 6 weeks.  I worked 6 months free.         

Q      You worked 6 months free for Scientology ... ?         

E     In Celebrity Centre.         

Q      To make up for the fact that you had worked 6 weeks in EST?
E      Yes. EST is a derivative of Scientology - in part - it takes from
various isms.  And I had to work a year and a half in the G.O. and do certain
special projects for them to make up also or I would not be allowed to have my
upper levels.            

Q    Okay. So when you were working for Scientology free to make up for your
past misdeeds, what were you living on?           

E    I was living on $10,000 - the money I was asking for, my father had
into a trust.           

Q    I see.           

E    He would not at this point ... he felt I was so influenced by them he
couldn't trust me with it anymore, but he didn't want to take it from me.  He
had it made into an irrevocable trust, and after that was done they said it's

nothing because I could borrow off the base.  But it was set up in such a way
that I couldn't even borrow. So then after my father died, I got certain
monies up front as the beneficiary of certain life insurance policies,
nowhere near
the amount that I had at one time thought I was going to be getting.  One came
in at around $30,000 and another around $5,000, and another one we weren't
sure if it was mine or not was for $25,000.  And I went down there (where ?)
after I got my money and put a couple of hundred down on vl)at they call
the IAS - the
International Association of Scientologists.            

Q    You wanted to give them a couple of hundred.           

E    Yes, for a donation because, per policy, you can't receive any other
services unless you are a member of the IAS.            

Q    I read somewhere they have 24,000 members today.           

E    I don't have any idea what they have. I could take a guestimate of
numbers on the list that I have seen.  Anyway, I went in and they convinced
me - they
do what's called a gang-bang and a gang-bang is when several of the staff
members get together and cry on your shoulder and tell you all the reasons why
you must contribute huge sums of money, and if that doesn't work then they
tell you why you better do it if you want the rest of the services.           

Q    Did they use the term "gang bang" to you?           
E    It wasn't used at the time. It was used later on when a staff 
member who worked on me got my money.  He called and wanted me
join in a "gang bang" on another Scientologist who was my friend
and who was in a position to give tens of thousands also, and
who had not.  And my answer to the staff member was, "I didn't like
it when you did it to me; I don't believe in those tactics and I
refuse to do it."          

Q    Okay. So how late did they keep you up with the gang bang?          

E    Well, the gang bangs went on till 3:00 in the morning or              
later ...          

Q    You mean there was more than one?          

E    Oh yes, many more than one.          

Q    Consecutive nights?          

E    Some were on consecutive nights.          

Q    You did not get much sleep then.          

E    No.          

Q    And were you working at the time?          

E    Yes.          

Q    You were a school teacher?          

E    Yes.          

Q    Every morning you would get up ...          

E    I had to be up at 5;30. Well, they finally talked me into paying for my
lifetime, which was several thousand dollars.          

Q    Your lifetime?          

E    Lifetime membership. What I wanted to do was    ... I had
not yet gotten the money from the insurance policies and so
I  wanted to pay them a few hundred and then in a few months
when this thing was settled, I would pay them the rest for
the lifetime membership.  While one staff member was being
very nice to me cutting my hair and inviting me to a party,
they went into another room and called a very wealthy
Scientologist  and arranged (they have habits of doing this when
you don't know about it) for him to loan me $15,000 because
my inheritance money hadn't gotten to me yet so I didn't have

it to give them.               
Q     So did you know this other wealthy Scientologist?          

E   No, I never knew him until after the situation. 
Q     I see.          

E     So they arranged for him to charge it to his charge card. I had just
gotten a Master Charge the month before and had never used it.  This was in
October, and I did not understand how to handle these things.  They sat down
again and calculated out the insurance policies, how much I would have from
the jewelry my mother left me, and which my father left me when he died,
which he
had been keeping until that time.  They convinced me I would have assets in
this amount.  So I said that I simply did not know that, and until I got it I
did not want to give them the money, so I left. A staff member came up the
following day, as I was getting ready to go out, with a plant and some eggnog
and said that the IAS had figured out a way for me to have all the money
and to be able to buy my "Ls" at Flag. What are "Ls"?          

E     They cost over $75,000 and are counselling procedures. They were waiting
for me and were going to tell me all about this, and in the meantime the other
staff member had kept calling her asking what was keeping her so long - this
going on with two phone calls - at my house.  I explained that I was getting
ready and so she was going to wait for me. Meanwhile he had called and said
there were many things be had not told me about, and that there was a tape he
wanted me to see (a video) and other tapes on what the IAS stands for and what
they are fighting, etc.  I went down and I was kept there until there was no
way I could leave and still feel like a decent human being.          

Q      Were they physically restraining you?          

E    No. But they were crying. They were getting loud speaker things (?) about
how the churches in Italy were going down because the Italian government was
invading the churches, taking over the churches, getting hold of P.C. folders
(those are the folders of people who are getting counselling) and literally
wrecking all of Scientology in Italy, and these people were in tears and were
looking at me like "You are the only one who can save them - please help us."
And though I felt bad, and I was willing to give them a little more, then
they came down
with it, but good, and told me point blank, "There is no way you will ever
have the O.T. levels" which I had paid for in 1979.  O.T. levels are advanced
levels where ..... this is going to be very difficult to explain ...

Q    You mean they are upper levels of enlightenment?           

E    Yes.  I had paid for them by selling my oriental rugs, sterling silver
tea set ...           

Q    You paid for them in 1979 and you still hadn't gotten them by

E    Yes, December 1986.  They were holding around $20,000 on account and told
me I could not use it.           

Q    They told you you still could not use it?           

E     Yes - if I was not going to become a sponsor and a patron. One status
was $20,000 and the other was $40,000.  They said they might let me get
O.T. III - that's the 3rd level of advanced stages but they knew I would never

be allowed to do IV, V, VI and VII until I was a full patron for $40,000. So
they got their $20,000 from me.  Now back to the arrangement they had made
with this man who had used, not a Mastercard which they had explained to me
at this
point thoroughly, but had used an American Express credit card.  So I thought
that I had a full month before they billed me, and then another month before
I'd have to start to pay it off. Now I find out, and so I had invested my
money through another Scientologist who was Vice President of a very
stock brokerage firm, who advised me to get into options - puts and calls -
and he
had worked out a way through Solo Nots that I would have to win, and he was
going to use this (method) for all Scientologists. Solo Nots?         

E      It's the most advanced state in Scientology at this point.         

Q      So he used advanced Scientology data to win on the stock market?

E      Exactly.         

Q      Did you win?         

E      No. I lost a lot of money, over $8,000, on this infallible

Q    So it wasn't the church that did this?            

E    No. I think his intentions were good. He is a true believer, and I was
naive.  I, too was a true believer, and I would have done anything at that
point to salvage Italy.  I really felt that ...            

Q    You were going to save the whole country of Italy. You've never been
there, have you?            

E    Yes, I have been to Italy, as a matter of fact, and I could see
visions of all these little faces looking at me with tears            

Q    Here's a kleenex. Let's take a little break here. All right, how are you
doing now?            

E    I'm feeling better. Now where were we?            

Q    Italian faces looking at you, saying "Save Italy." 

E    And the church.  And mankind.  And this entire sector of the

Q    The universe?            

E    Yeah. The universe on my back.            

Q    For $40,000 that you were going to give them today.            

E    Well, I could only give them $20,000. That's all I was certain of at that

Q    If you had the money            

E    I did not have the money, so they arranged to have this man     (sniff)

Q    ... arrange to lend you the money. Meanwhile you got the money from the
insurance company, but instead of paying the man back ...            

E    I didn't get enough of it. I now had to be paying out monies and charging
the Mastercard all the rest, and paying off interest on that money, and then,
meanwhile, all the other people were demanding their money back. Now the IAS
told me that I'd have till February  15th before I had to pay a dime. So we
had invested, the stock broker and I, in the options and the stock broker
it with them.  He asked them, "Are you certain now, because once the money is
paid in, it can't be taken out without a loss." And they were absolutely
positive.  They came up another night, in the middle of the night, didn't even
get there till about 11:00, stayed till nearly 5 a.m. and demanded that I pay
back the persons involved who were now having a committee of evidence on these

various church members, which is where the church steps in and adjudicates
is right and who is wrong, and who has to make amends for a

Q     So who is in trouble?           

E     The staff members who had arranged it were now in trouble, because the
man did not yet have his money back, I did not yet have all the money, and
they said that per my original agreement with them I was to pay, and that
was that.
Then one of them said, "If you have to take a loss, we will not pay for any
money you would have made (the options were to have made a guaranteed profit,
but the money had to be left in for a certain time).  But it's only a month of
investment, and if you have to take a loss, I guarantee you that

Q     I see.           

E     I pulled the money out. Oh, in the meantime, the stock broker and my FSM
(everyone has an FSM who helps them get through these levels) had gotten
together and were really upset that I was putting this kind of money in when I
didn't even have my own security handled at this point.  I was upset for the
same reason.  And they wanted me to sell these limited editions of Battlefield
Earth to handle it.  They put in writing what they were going to do, which was
to handle the sale of some of my mother's jewelry and the sale of the
Battlefield Earths, and that would raise the money to help save Italy.  But
they backed out of that.  These items were supposed to be worth over

Q     You had collector's editions ... very special books signed by        

E     Yes. They were limited editions, very special books signed by Ron
Hubbard, the founder, gold embossed, and in their own slip cases, and in
wooden cases, and what have you.  But then they reneged on all of that and
left me
out on a limb.  They then demanded that I pay this man, and they would pay
me for
the losses. Well,  since then, no one remembers anything about that.  Ken had
... the only reason Ken released the money was that I convinced him that they
had promised to make up the losses, which I at the time thought would be  a
couple of hundred dollars.  After it was over, it turned out I lost over $450
in that transaction.         

Q      That's quite a bit.         

E      Yes, and that "Quite a bit" is probably why they lost their recall on
it.  They don't remember the promise.         

Q      Didn't you say that you did on your own sell those Battlefield
Earths to that same man?         
E      I sold one to that same man who refused to pay
any more than $2000.  He tried to get it for $1500.         

Q      How much had you paid for it?         

E     I paid $2500 for it.         

Q     So he actually paid less. That was all you could get, eh?         

E     That was all I could get, all he would give me for it.         

Q      And this was supposed to be an investment.  They had sold you the book
as an investment.         

E:     Oh, he knew he could get more for it. But you need time and you need
right contacts. The same man who promised to make up for the losses of these
two individuals, one of them came to school where I taught. He was one of the

ones involved in the gang bang and had come to my house, but it was his

partner who had made the promise (of making up the $4500 loss), and he nodded
in agreement.  He didn't actually make the promise, but he was the one who
wrote (I have that) that he was going to do various other things to get me
more money, help me with the sale of the jewelry and also the Battlefield
He actually came to school on several occasions, He walked into my room.  I
couldn't believe how he found the room or how he knew where I was.. He asked
for me in the office, and they let him come up.  I was trying to teach a
lesson, and he's talking to me in the corner.  I couldn't believe it.  And
this went on quite a few times.         

Q      He went to your classroom and tried to talk you out of money while you
were trying to teach a room full of children?         

E      Yes. Yep. It's really unreal.         

Q      I guess it was a lot of pressure.            

E     They had terrific pressure, you see, because they didn't want this
committee of evidence on their heads because it would have meant all kinds of

Q     Oh, because their boss was investigating them           

E     Exactly. For mishandling the other man's money.           

Q     Because he was rich and he didn't like what was happening.           

E     He's a very wealthy, well-known business man in this area. He's got his
magnificent place on Wilshire Boulevard.           

Q     Well, we had to take a break and now we are in a different place.  We've
left the restaurant and we're in a beautiful garden, so we are going to
continue, Edwina.           

E     Okay.           

Q     You lost how much money on that?           

E     The original amount was $20,010 and then some $4500.           

Q     The $4500 was the penalty for taking that money out a couple weeks

E     Yes.           

Q     And did you ever get that reimbursed?           

E     No. I have gotten, since I requested it recently, I have gotten a
phone call and two messages where they say they're confused, and they don't
know what this is all about, and I had to write to them to state that there
was no reason to be confused, that the issue
was clearly stated. I see.  So now you mentioned to me earlier about having to
destroy psychiatry?           

E     Well, once the word got out that I was declared illegal ...           

Q     We haven't gotten to that yet.           

E     Well, I was declared illegal, and I'll get into that later. Then I got
phone calls from various different parts of their organization demanding
that I put up many thousands of dollars to get rid of psychiatry, and until
group is disbanded there would be no hope of me getting any further than the
advanced level III.  Right now one can have advanced levels up through VII,
and shortly
there will be available advanced level VIII. You had paid through VII? Yes, I
had paid through VII in 1979.            

Q     And they were telling you now you could only get through III.           

E    Yes. They said there would be no way I was going to get any further than
III, and even III would be questionable, and until I saw to it that psychiatry
was disbanded (and this would be the kind of help they wanted, financial help)

Q     They wouldn't let you use the money you had already paid, but you had
paid $20,000.           

E     That's right.           

Q     They said that if you donated the $20,000 you could get the advanced
levels, but now they bad changed their mind?           

E     Yes. And the very fact that they took the money for the advanced levels
in the first place is so unethical, to hold that money when I could at least
have made interest in my credit union over those years.  They've had that
money since 1979.           

Q     So when were you declared illegal? What does that mean?           

E     Well, okay. There was a question as to whether or not I was legal in the
very first place.  Before I was allowed any of their counselling in 1976, the
executive director wrote to the G.O. explaining who my father was and that I
had had what they call a psych. background.  I had seen psychiatrists.  And he
somehow managed to get this thing waived and allow me auditing or
counselling.  And then again in 1978 or 1979, 1 was declared an illegal
P.C., and I had to
write up these very intricate forms.            

Q    What is an illegal P.C.?            

E    It is someone who is not allowed counselling.            

Q    What's a P.C.?            

E    When you are audited or counselled you get to a state of clear.  Anyone
who has not reached the state of clear is called a preclear.  It is also a
term used even if you are a clear or beyond the state of clear such as what
call O.T. - they will still call you a P.C. because that's the term they have
adopted for someone receiving counselling.            

Q    So any parishioner who gets counselling they call a P.C.?            

E    Yes.            

Q    And you were an illegal P.C. because your father was a doctor and because
you had been to see a psychiatrist? 

E    Not just because my father was a doctor, but because of who my father

Q    I see.  But you had already disconnected and separated from your

E    I did not speak to him for a year while I fought the whole thing.
Until I had fought it successfully and got the O.K., then I immediately 

Q    So you paid this money in February, or March?           

E     The $20,000?           

Q     Yes.           

E    No. I paid that in December ...           

Q   And when were you declared illegal?           

E    That May. 
Q    May? So between December and May did you get any

E     Nothing.           

Q    Did you try to get auditing?           

E     Well, I had been trying since I got here.  I was sent here.           

Q     Then you were trying?           

E    Since 1982, but they lost my folders. They lost my ethics folders, too.
They lost all the records and they couldn't give you auditing without the

E    No. But then they wanted me to pay for that. Pay for reconstructing my
folders, and I refused because per their policy, the one who loses the folders
is responsible for paying.  It went from one organization to another till it
vent up to the highest group which is called RTC, and the man from RTC said it
was ridiculous, and how could they ask you to pay for reconstructing something
when it's not there to reconstruct.           

Q    I see.           

E    And he said, "What are you supposed to do, go without auditing forever if
they can't find these folders?" I said, "those are the 
Questions I've been asking all along."            

Q    So what happened? Did you then get your auditing?            

E    I still did not get my auditing. And I've wasted 6 years in California, 6
years of my life waiting for something that never happened.           

Q    So then someone sent down an order that you were an illegal P.C., and
meant you could never get any auditing?           

E    That's right. So they wanted me to use all of my money on various
training and various donations to get rid of various groups they don't want,
particularly psychiatry.  And now we are talking again in many thousands of
dollars and when I was firm about saying "No", I even hung up on the guy and
lie would call back.  He said, "Well, can't you at least give $2000?" I said,
"No, I cannot give $2000, I will not give $2000, and it's final." And then he
was threatening to call the ethics officer, he was threatening to call the
chaplain, he was threatening to call everybody in town over the whole matter
because I was clearly not interested in disbanding psychiatrists at this
point.  It seemed that I was responsible for disbanding anything in this world
they didn't like before I could use the money already paid, and that I had
received nothing for since 1979.           

Q    Okay. That was in May. When did you finally decide [tape runs out on side
one]  ...           

E        the worst that could happen to me would be that I would die right
then and there, but if I didn't die, I would become so violently ill that I
wish I were dead, and I couldn't believe it.  I couldn't believe it.  She [?]
wasn't making sense to me.  I thought, "What the hell is this?  They've been
keeping my money all these years for me to find out about body

Q    Body thetans?           

E    Body thetans. Incredible, insane thing, and clusters. A thetan is
something that is not in the physical universe. it has no mass, it cannot 
be grabbed.  You can't see it or feel it or touch it.           

Q    So what's a body thetan?           

E    It's a thetan which attaches itself to your body ...           

Q    Like possession?           

E    Well, it's ... don't ask me how it's supposed to be done. I know Ron
Hubbard had a terrific imagination and was a great science fiction writer, and
I think he had a terrific imagination when it comes to body thetans.  It can't
be done. He's claiming that something that has no physical properties is
attaching itself to something else that has no physical properties.  So

anyway, these "creatures", thousands of these creatures are attached to your

Q       You mean that's the secret of Scientology         

E      Yes, and they follow you when you leave your body at death, and they
follow you about from body to body ... and in between lives.  You have no
mass, it has no mass, but somehow it's attached to you.  As if it had
nothing better
to do for all eternity than to follow you about.  So therefore, if you do
anything wrong or are feeling strange sensations, it's the body thetans.
Now I mean, I can't begin to tell you that after spending $150,000 I find
out this. 
I mean, I was so shaken up for a couple of weeks, and one of my very dearest
friends from Scientology walked by, and I see her from a pizza parlor and I
ran out of the pizza parlor and I grabbed her and I'm crying and I'm crying
I've got this material and what am I going to do. (And, oh, by the way, they
come in clusters, too, and they attach themselves to any part of your body,
including personal parts, and you have to audit this out in counselling).  I
tell you, I can't believe it.  At any rate, I'm crying, "What am I going to
do?", and she looked at me and smiled sweetly and said, "Well, you're still
standing, aren't you?" And I thought to myself, "Gee, I am, I'm not dead." So
apparently they must think that my awareness is so low ... See, that was the
other thing.  If you get this material before you're ready, you'll either pass
it off as a joke or as something not real, and only when you're ready can you
accept the truth of this.  You see, that was part of my being declared
illegal.  I was clearly not ready for this.  They are right on that, see,
because I will never be ready for this, you know.  And now, I am not trying to
make fun of a religious belief, but I'm sorry, I can't abide by it.  It's not
real to me. I think they are deluding themselves, honest-to-god really think
they are making up this.  I mean, part of being clear is making things up -
what they call mocking up a bank, a reactive mind, and I really think they are
mocking up body thetans right, left and center.  That is my opinion.  I have a
right to say it, that's the way I sec it.           

Q     Okay. Thank you. Now would it be allright if we go back in and talk
about some of the things that happened in your personal life?           

E     Fine.           

Q     I understand that at one time you were engaged to be married to a

E     Yes.           

Q     And he was in the Sea Organization - is that correct?           

E     Now wait. There were two men. One I was actually about to marry, and he
died.  They forced him ...           

Q     Tell me the story from beginning to end.           

E     Well, I met him at a play. He came in with some friends and we all ...
well, I was escorted in, but he wanted to sit next to me, and I felt ... he
just wanted to sit next to me too much.  And before the night was over, we all
left and went out to a place and ate.  And he paid for the thing, and lie was
kind of showing off, and he very quietly said, "Gee, I had a nice time.
Would it be allright if I called you sometime?" And I really realized that
this guy was nice, so I really wanted
him to call me.  A few days went by, and lie didn't call.  So I was calling my

friend and saying, "Where is he, why hasn't he called me yet?  He can't care
about me very much if he hasn't called me yet." Anyway, one thing led to
another, and we had planned on being married.  His family had taken me out to
celebrate, and my family loved this guy.  It was perfect.  Our relationship
was so close - it was just incredible.  And he was living with me at the
time, and
one night he was ordered out of my apartment. I woke up the next morning
and he was gone.           

Q     Who ordered him out?           

E     The Guardian's Office.           

Q     Why would they want him out of your apartment?
E     You tell me and then we'll both know.           

Q     What was their interest in him?           

E     He had not been in Scientology for some time and was coming back

Q     Out or just inactive.           

E     Inactive. I don't know the whole story. The whole thing was shrouded in
mystery as are so many things that go on.  He had various amends projects
to do because of, I guess, this absenteeism - you know, whatever.  They
him very keyed into his, what they call his NOTs case (another advanced
level), and he had to clean that up before ... well, all I know is that I
was called
down by the chaplain, Carl Brezino, and a representative from the Guardian's
Office, and they told me I was not to communicate with him.  And he had been
told not to communicate with me, not even by phone. Was there any warning -
anything said to you before he left?           

E     Nothing. Oh, yes, there was. Well, they had him tell me certain things
about himself that he didn't want to tell me. I heard it and I thought, "The
hell with it.  It's done and it's over with." Then ...     I guess what they
were trying to say to me was "This person is a bad person." And I didn't feel
he was a bad person.  We got so close to the wedding that we even had his
brother and his brother's wife who was going to stand up for me.  Everything
was set. Did they call you down and tell you to leave him?           

E     I, uh, went to his house - I went to his house to see what in the hell
was going on. I was hysterical. And be ...          [sigh] ...  Anyway, there
was very little said between us. 

Q     Did he say he loved you?           

E     Well, that's the next thing. He said ...      in various other
conversations I told him I wanted him to return my keys - he had left with my
keys - he had his things in my apartment - "What the hell is going on?" -
and I had an inkling that this could happen, and he did say, "One thing I
will do is
if I'm forced to leave, I will leave my things there to let you know that I'm
not really gone." Ah.          

E     And I get a call from the lobby (I lived in an apartment hotel), and he
said, "It's Jim,  I have your keys. Do you want me to leave them at the
desk or do you want me to come up?" I said, "Come up." He came up and we
decided that
he was going to do whatever he had to do and then we would take up where we
left off, and we kissed goodbye and agreed to contact each other by phone
every day despite what we were told.  As far as a marriage date or anything

that was the end of that one.  We were supposed to be married at the end of
September. In the meantime, I suspected strongly that he had been on lines all
along and involved in a mission. What do you mean mission?"          

E    Well, the Guardian's Office and certain other individuals are on missions
and usually that is riot discussed in anyway. 
Q     What kind of things do they do?          

E    Whatever they do. There are missions where - the big one where they -
that big episode where they went into one of the government buildings and
hid and
took documents - that would be a mission. 
Q     You mean intelligence missions?          
E    Their intelligence missions, sure. And I suspected it and I couldn't
prove it, and he couldn't say anything. Illegal things. I don't think he
was the
type to do anything illegal, but I know it has been done.  That I know
because I
went with a person in the G.O. some years before that, and I got information
that most people don't get.          

Q     Right. In the meantime I got a phone call from a man that I knew very
well through Jim (they had gone to grammar school together), and Frank said,
"Have you seen Jim?" I said, "Not since last week-" And he said, "Well, I have
bad news for you." Well, they had found a body in Queens, and Jim's brother
was going over to look at the body now, but he had to leave his home to do
this which was way down on the Island, and be said, "It may be Jim's
body.,, I said, "Please call me as soon as you know." And I went directly
to the MAA (ethics officer) screaming ... MAA is the Master at Arms,
which is the Sea Org ethics officer who only handles certain personnel, and I
knew he was seeing him and Jeannie Bovgazird whose husband was the Continental

Q    I see. So you went screaming in there?            

E    Like a raving maniac. I wanted to know where he was, what they bad done. 
I wanted to know this and I wanted to know that, etc., etc., and the guy
claimed to know nothing, which is not unusual, and he made a few phone calls. 
All we knew was there was a body and no one knew whose.  And he had someone
take me out for, what they call a locational assist, to get my attention
out of it.  A help-type action.  And I went home, and it was confirmed that
it was

Q    Wow. How did he die?            

E    A fall.            

Q    A fall in Queens? Off of what?            

E    Well, he had, like, holes in his nose and part of his face from trying to
grasp on to a screen in this manner - if you could only see it.  He apparently
had fallen and was grabbing on to a screen.            

Q    A fall out of a building?            

E    Yes. He was trying to get in his father's office. He did a lot of work in
his father's offices.   His father was a lawyer.  That was part of what they
didn't like about him. You see, my father was a doctor and his father was a

Q    Did you ever find out what he was doing outside the window?            

E    Well, I know he was a climber. I had been told he had forgotten keys many
times, and he would climb in and out of things like this.            

Q    So you think it was an accident?            

E    Yes. But I wasn't there so I don't know what happened. I know they
said it was instantaneous, and when  you viewed the body in the casket you
see anything.   It was covered by hair.  The only thing you could see was the
screen marks where he had tried to grasp the screen.            

Q    Okay. Allright. Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about your next

E     Well, this was before Jim.          

Q     Oh, before Jim there was Paul.          

E     Yes. Paul lived with me as a room renter. He rented a room in my
apartment.  I had had many roommates on and off over the years, which
helped me pay bills.  And he was going with someone at the time who was
working, not
as a member of the Guardian's Office, but as what they called a "GAS", a
assistant.  And she came to the apartment for a couple of weeks to work with
Paul, or whatever, and then she went back to California.          

Q     Where was this?          

E     In New York. And the next thing I was overhearing over the phone - it
was him having conversations with her, and at one point I realized (after all,
he's talking and I'm walking round my apartment, so I could hear) that they
broken up. At some point after that he sat me down in my room on my bed and
said, "There's something I need to discuss with you.  It's important." He
said, "I know your position in the Church, you know mine, but I want to have a
permanent relationship with you.  I don't know how Here going to go about
doing it, but I'm going to petition."          

Q     Why would you have to petition to have a relationship with a man?  I
don't understand.          

E     Because of my position in the Church. He was in the Guardian's Office
and had access to confidential data, and he was called a Missionaire

Q     Oh.          

E     He was posted there to handle Mary Sue Hubbard's case

Q     Her legal case.          

E     Yes, so someone who knew all that confidential data to be dating me
whose father was so high in the AMA, so it just couldn't be.  Forget it.
It was
hands off.  There was nothing that could be done, but be didn't care, he was
going to petition. And then the petition was denied, and he was told to cease
his relationship or he would be removed from the Guardian's Office, etc.,
etc., etc.  So after a great deal of crying and upset, we stayed together
for one
more week, and then one more week, this kind of thing ... and well, he moved
back into his separate room which is what he promised them he would do.  So we
remained friends, and then after a period of time we started all over
Now, this time he decided to petition Ron Hubbard himself. He was getting
furious at this point because, well, you know, you want to be with whom you
want to be with, and not have to plead for this right. It was like the
Montagues and the Capulets, and so, he petitioned Ron and then, of course, the
answer came back, "Policy is Policy, and that's it." So now he had to move out
of the apartment totally.  He couldn't be trusted in my apartment, and you

know, you do learn the inner mechanisms.  I had missionaires in and out of
there, and you are awakened at 3:00 in the morning because someone's running
here and someone's running there, and emergency phone calls to L.A., so you
get to hear all these legal terms, and things like this.  So you know things
before they hit the public, and you hear it a little differently than they
announce to the public.  You know, the way they P.R. a situation may not be
the entire
truth.  They say what they care to say and omit what they care to omit. So I
guess I was exposed to things that I shouldn't have been exposed to from their
viewpoint. So this time he got back the answer, "Policy is Policy", and he
showed me Ron's answer along with his petition which I had not seen before.  I
had seen his first petition, and the second petition was very weird.  He was
petitioning to be able to have a relationship with anyone he wanted, me as one
of those.  And I strongly suspected that he showed me the petition -which was
irrational - he would not petition Ron to have a relationship with me and
whoever else you wanted it with, and I felt that the petition had been altered
and that they had him show it to me so that I could see that it was an insane
petition doomed to be denied. 

Q     Then it was out of character
E     Yes. Here was a man who wanted to have sex 'with me and others,' and he
had no history of doing anything but being totally loyal.  It's not sane.  You
don't do this.  And then I saw certain friends of his prepping him on him to
attract other girls.  Like "Now you have to get out there and meet the right
person." You see, I was not the right person.  I was fine.  I was a
Scientologist, but I was different.  So now it was Me and Them.  It's not we
and us.  So now he had to find someone who met their standard.           

Q     Why didn't you leave Scientology then?           

E     Because I wanted eternal freedom. I wanted freedom from overwhelm.  I
wanted these higher states of awareness that I thought were there.  And you
will go through whatever you have to go through to have such a reward as that
in the end. They said their technology was going to show us this eternal
freedom.  So no matter what it cost in money and personal losses (and those
hurts were deep), you did what you had to do.           

Q     Yes. Thank you. Edwina, you have brought me a pile (about two feet high)
of paper work which all seems to be things that you have written to
Scientology.  Petitions?           

E     Yes.           

Q     Why would a petition be an inch thick?           

E     Because of the data they require.           

Q     Now, the first time you petitioned, what were you petitioning

E     Well, the first petition was done by the man at Celebrity Center that I
had told you about. he was second in charge, what they call the D.
E.D. Deputy Executive Director.  I was petitioning just to get auditing. What
year was this?           

E     1976.           

Q     And what did you have to put in this petition?           

E     My history in Scientology thus far and what was going on, and basically
was to let them know that all upsets were fine and okay with me.  It was, no
matter what awful things occurred, it was always okay with me.          

Q     Well, I see something here about "living love center and EST"          

E     It was organizations that they call "S
Quirrel Groups" that I had belonged to.          

Q     And names of everybody you knew in these organizations?          

E     Yes, I had to name them and give my relationship with each.          

Q     My god, there are pages and pages - must have been everybody YOU

E     And then, later on, for various different reasons - one which was
just to proceed with auditing - I was again declared illegal - and on
another occasion
when I wanted to join staff, you have to do these life histories which are
very, very detailed questions about everything you've ever done.  Every
organization you've
belonged to, every hobby, every club, every job, every relationship that
you've had with a man. it just goes on and on and on.          

Q     What did you have to say about your relationships with men?          

E     Who the person was. What 'was the relationship? flow long did it last? 
Things like that.  Did sex occur, did it not occur? How frequently?  Very,
very detailed questions.  Who your mother is, who your father is, the jobs
had, who they are, what they did.  It just goes on, and on and on          

Q     I see. I've got a copy here entitled "Life History Writeup.11 "Write a
complete writeup of your history, your lovelife, any perversions, any
homosexual relationship you have been involved in.  Please be as complete as
possible - all data received is confidential."          

E     Data received is not confidential because during my expulsion, my
auditor not only wrote up things I said in session, she then altered them,
and distorted them to a point where it was unbelievable.          

Q     What? She revealed confidential data you gave in session?          

E     Well, that's why the expulsion order got cancelled, and it says in the
cancellation that the expulsion was due to false reports.          

Q     I see, but not because she divulged confidential information?          

E     It didn't say she divulged confidential information, it said it was due
to false reports. 
Q     And here's something else.  "Do you have a criminal history of any
kind?" "Do you know anyone who works for the Government?" "Who are they and
what kind
of relationship do you have with them?" "Do you know anyone who works for a
newspaper?" "Where did you meet him or what kind of a relationship did you
have?" "Have you ever attempted or thought of suicide?" "When and how many
times?" ''Have you ever been part of a squirrel group?", etc.  "Details,
please." Those are just some of the  questions.  Now your life history form
here is 12 pages long, typewritten,
legal size.  Is that the usual size?           

E     Oh, this was just one life history form. There was an even more detailed
one for joining the Sea Org.           

Q     Oh, then what was this one for?           

E     This one was just to be able to proceed with auditing.           

Q     Oh, then this is just the light one.           

E     Yes. And then there was the petition for Paul. He actually had to do the
petition in this case (I could not), but we were hoping that we would get
through my petition cycle in enough time so that then I could marry him once I
got through whatever projects they put me through, and then I would be
considered supposedly eligible to now marry him.  I would now be good enough. 
I would have racked up enough good points on the good side of the board to
balance all the bad.           

Q     I see, so he was petitioning to have a relationship with you and you
were petitioning to be an acceptable Scientologist?           

E     Right.           

Q     There must be hundreds, maybe thousands of pages here. "Continuous and
Chronological History.'' Good God.           

E     Well, that one really got cuckoo because I decided to adopt what they
called a "valence", and I accused them of all kinds of insanities in the same
manner I thought they were accusing me, and I thought, "Now go stick that in
your hat."            

Q     Wow, this one here is 93 pages long.           

E     Right, and that was before I even met Jim and got into that mess.  And
with all the mess of coming to Los Angeles - they all said I had to come to
L.A. because the reason for Jim's death and the reason for all the upset
was my O.T. III case. They said my O.T. III case was sitting on my head.
So I came
running to L.A., gave up my apartment, stuck everything in storage to go have
these levels.  And what happened, they lose my folders.  And at this point I
don't know if they even lost them.  I think they may have sent them, someone
suggested, several have suggested, that they sent them up lines for security
purposes because in my folders was data that they did not want out. From

E     From Paul and others. And data I knew they did not want out because it
would be very, very bad publicity, so I think those folders are in a spot
where they can be kept.  They do something with them.  They cull, they delete
certain things, and the way they explain it is, let's say you were auditing
Hubbard, and in that session he said, "In New York ... blab, blab in the
Bronx.'' Well, then they remove that so no one would know where Ron was.  So
they have certain purposes for removing things that they don't want anyone
knowing.  So I firmly believe my folders were never lost.  Then they lost my
ethics folders.  And you know, with each one of these, I bad to reconstruct
all of this data.  The chaplain told me when I was declared illegal that
all of
this that you see in front of you Yes. And all that stuff in the ethics
folders, all had to be re-copied because they lost it, and you know at whose
expense? Do you know how, many dollars worth of xeroxing that would be? And
then did you petition again once you were declared illegal last May

E    No. I just couldn't bring myself to go through that whole routine again,
and I didn't care to spend the money and the time.  I started to go about the

business of getting ready to do it, but I just could not deal with it again. 
It looked like an utter refusal. Oh, this one is when I requested ...
Q     Handwritten notes? 

E              Yes, because there are millions more questions that were asked
by the woman who was to become a very good friend of mine, who lived in the
apartment opposite me at the time.  In England she was the Assistant to the
Guardian World Wide. (The Guardian WW was Jane Kember).  Then after I went
through writing all that garbage, they disbanded the Guardian's Office, and I
had to re-write the whole damn thing to The Executive Director International,
who then was removed, and I had to keep re-petitioning new people in the
position of  E.D. International.          

Q     And this was to get permission to use the money ...          

E     That I had already paid them.          

Q     Is there anything else you had to do besides write petitions?          

E     Well, there were several things you had to do. You had to do what they
called a "TIP", and that's 'where they tell you what courses you need to take
to become eligible to get the kind of awarenesses you need.  The word "TIP"
stands for Tech Individual Program.  And so they give you a whole list of
courses you need, and then you have certain programs you have to do of good

Q     Hospitals?          

E     No, no, no. As I told you I had worked for Celebrity Center for six
months. Which Celebrity Center?          

E     The one in Manhattan. I then worked for the Guardian's Office for a year
and a half in many different positions.  In P.R. In legal.  In social
coordinations, etc.  I then had to do a raffle project for which I was highly
commended.  I worked at the Advanced Org (AOLA) in what they called the ARC
Break team for several months.  They were going to pay me; then they decided
they couldn't pay me, so they gave me a training award instead.  In my first
petition they gave me a program which was to do certain courses, and then when
the new people took over and whom I had to petition again, these new people
totally ignored the first petition recommendation for courses, and now I
had to do another program altogether.  And for each of these courses it
cost many
thousands of dollars, even tens of thousands of dollars.
Q     Couldn't you use the money you'd already paid?           

E     Yes. I could have used it on courses, but then it would have broken up
the O.T. package, and I would have had to pay two or three times that for
another O.T. package because the prices had gone up so much since

Q     How many years were you in Scientology?           

E     From 1976 to 1987 or actually 1988.           

Q     About 12 years. Now, looking back on those 12 years, how would you
evaluate them?           

E     Being put through a personal hell by a bunch of toy gods who bad the
right to give or refuse to give you eternity.  They had the right to condemn
you to eternal damnation for whatever arbitrary reasons they had, according to
their technology, and their way of looking at it.  They had a case of tunnel
vision. They could see things their way and no other way.           

Q     Do you now think that there was something wrong with you that you got
into Scientology in the first place?           

E     Ah ... I think what it was was that I did have certain awareness, and I
knew that I wanted to expand those abilities, into the spiritual awareness
type things, and spiritual ability type things, and they promised you these
abilities and awarenesses, and the O.T.s (who had done O.T. levels) spoke in
such assuring ways that what was promised would occur, and there was such
agreement there that you never doubted, you just knew it had to be there.  You
had found at last what you had been seeking.  So rather than saying there was
something wrong with me, it was only a desire to expand myself.           

Q     What would you say to somebody who is looking at Scientology, who is
perhaps interested in receiving what some of the ads promise?           

E     I've already said it. I have a few friends in the park who walk with
me.  One had read Dianetics and wanted to go clear, and they've been trying
to get
her on staff, and she's heard my story and she doesn't want anything to do
with it.  Unless you are willing to have someone exert total control over your
life, then don't go in it.  They promise freedom, and then they try to
enslave you. 
And the enslavement gets worse and worse to the point where they will have a
husband disconnect from a wife or parents disconnect from a child.  It does
riot matter to them.          

Q     They claim they don't do that anymore.          

E     Well, I've news for you. I've seen it. I've seen letters of
disconnection.  And if you want physical possessions or things of aesthetic
beauty, then you'd better be sure you are going to give it to them.  They
praise people, write stories of people who give away their antiques, who sell,
undersell, to buy the bridge as I did.  I sold oriental rugs, jewelry,
crystal, china, sterling silver, actually undersold because you had to get
the money in
by a certain time, there was so much pressure.  I've donated gorgeous works of
art that they stuck in all kinds of weird places, signed limited editions,
just beautiful things.  I donated planters worth $40-$60 each, and I found
using them as paint containers.  They were dumping paint in them and painting
walls with these gorgeous planters.  I became friendly with one of the ethics
officers later on, and I found one of the planters I had donated to the church
in her house.  They gave it to her.  If their ethics system was to rule the
world, I would be really afraid because of the control they have on you and on
your relationships. They can totally ostracize anyone, and refuse to speak to
you or allow you to walk into their buildings.  They have the idea that they
are God and have the right to suspend any other law in favor of their "senior"
law.  They do believe that the end justifies the means, and if they've made a
mistake then (I'm quoting Ron Hubbard) they "exhume the body." That's what
they did to me after several episodes.          

Q     Do you feel free from the threat now that you've left?          

E     Yes. I think a lot of it is in their imagination. I feel relieved.  I
have come to my own philosophy about the whole thing, even about 
various awarenesses, and what it's all about.          

Q     How do you look forward to the rest of your life?          

E     In peace. I intend to have a wonderful life, even though this episode
was there.  Hopefully it can all be forgotten.  One tries not to retain
rotten memories, and it was a really rotten memory. I'm moving back to the
home that I should never have left. 
(I left it for Scientology and got nothing.) I've wasted 6 years in
Manhattan and 6 in
California.  I'm going back to where I belong.  Fortunately, I have kept my
relationships with my roots, and I and my family are looking forward to me
being back.  I have made some friends here and hopefully I'll keep them.  It
took a gouge out of those earlier years which they can never give me back, but
I'm going to start from here.           

Q     Thank you. Thank you very much.            

E    You're welcome.  

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