EDWINA'S STORY - 1988 Q This is an interview with Edwina Ristano on 22nd March, 1988. Hi, Edwina. E Hi. Q Well, I understand you've had some problems with Scientology. E Yes. Q O.K. I'm interested to hear what happened last night. E I had a few friends go down to the Church to ask for my money and they were surrounded by security guards with guns in holsters who would not answer their Questions; nobody knew anything about what they wanted and all they did was write down every little thing said, threaten them for walking on their sidewalk, said they were trespassing and followed them continuously all the way out to Vermont and to the other streets where my friends' cars were parked. Q You were down at Sunset and Vermont where the Scientology complex is? E No, they went in to the Scientology complex buildings and ... Q To ask for your money ... E To ask for my money which they had promised me and which I had been asking unsuccessfully for since January Q I see. Well, why did you want your money back? E I had put the money down for services and I am not allowed to have those services Q You're not allowed ... E I'm not allowed - I'm what they call an illegal P.C. I'm what they call a resistive case, and I was considered connected to a suppressive person who is my father. I refused to give up my relationship with my father who was an important medical doctor and ... Q I see. But why did they - one thing at a time here ... E ... the doctors ... Q They just wanted you to stop communicating with your father because ... E They ordered me out of the house - they ordered me to sue him. Q Had he ever said anything or done anything to them? E No. But he was a doctor and they hate the AMA. They hate anything that is in the practice of healing mentally or physically, or spiritually. I mean every other religion is looked down on. These people are ... Q That's not what they say. E That's not what they say, but they're considered wogs. Q Who is considered wogs - one thing at a time here ... E The non-Scientologists. Q What is a wog? E It's a disdainful expression - for instance, people in the G.O. would say, if they were being held up in traffic, "Run him over, he's just a wog." Q And they would run somebody over? E Oh, no. But is was just that kind of crackpot attitude of ... Q I see, and you E There are menial wogs, no different than a worm, a rock or ... Q Okay. Now I know there are doctors who are Scientologists, so why did they go after your father? E My father was president of the New Jersey ... He was New Jersey State Medical Examiner and he was president of the Board of Medical Examiners. He was invited by Reagan to go on the China trip. He was called ... he's been called in my home by one of the Kennedys. Q Very prominent. E Yes. Q But he never spoke against Scientology? E Not in the beginning. Now they ordered me to sue him and to move out of the house - said he was a suppressive person. And I did move out of the house - or I could not continue with Scientology - Q I see. E And then I had to sue him because he ... Q You sued your father? E Well, I withdrew the suit. What I was doing was ... my mother had given me stocks and my father did, and they were in trust for me from the time I was a child, so that actually at the age of 21 they were mine. My father every year, or quarterly would give me the dividends, and I never minded. I never needed anything. I never questioned value or anything else. Q Right. E Well, they had an accountant get all kinds of data on this. They called the lawyer ... I didn't even call the lawyer, they called the lawyer, set up the appointment ... Q Who is they? E Darby Simpson. Q Oh, you are talking about Scientologists? E Yes. I was advised by the executive director Q In Scientology? E Yes, at the organization where I was. Q In New Jersey? E In New York. And the Ethics Officer was involved, and what they call the D.E.D. Q The what? E Ethics Officer. Q An ethics officer? I'd like to hear more about that, but go on. E Oh, he was unreal. Q Okay. Let's ... E He, by the way, is no longer a Scientologist. I found that out since. He is also disgusted. Q Maybe he got some "ethics." E Who knows. Q Now you say that the Scientologists arranged for a lawyer for you to sue your father? E This particular Scientology organization sat me down and told me they had already made an appointment with the lawyer, that one of their staff had already been to see him, and that the executive director herself had been communicating with him over the phone and in writing and they had this thing all set up ... that I was going to get my money back (from father?) so I could put it on the Bridge. Q Your money back from whom? E The money that my father was holding from me which should have been mine from my mother, and therefore.....And that was more proof that he was a suppressive person. Q You didn't explain ... your father was ... when your mother died, your father didn't give you your inheritance because of Scientology. Is that what you're saying? E No. My mother had bought - or my father and mother had bought stock - some in her name, some in his name, some in my name and some in my brother's name. There was about $150,000 worth of stocks. I wasn't even aware of how much until this staff member, who had been an accountant, went down to ... I forget the name ... but to a very big Wall Street company they and I knew because I had to sign the dividends every quarter. So I knew there was money there. I didn't know how much, nor did I care because I didn't have any need to know. I was happy. I had everything I wanted, and I lived very well ... so it didn't bother me any until they (Scientology) needed the money for the auditing. So they went about their business to find out all this data. And this staff member announced to me again exactly how much I was worth, including the house I lived in, the jewelry I owned, the stocks and bonds. Q Why did you decide you should sue your father? E Well, because I was to ask him nicely for the stocks ... and he said "no." Then I was to demand them, and if he said "no" I was not to communicate with him in any way. Q You were getting counselling at the time? E I was getting counselling, and I would have been doing very well with it, but what happened was I kept getting upset and crying and actually became physically ill over the upset going on with my father. There had never been any of this between him and me. I was his little girl and he was my father, and he did what daddies do. You know. And he was an excellent provider. So anyway, one word led to another, and I had misunderstood something. This is the basis of -why they thought he was a raving lunatic - what they call a suppressive person. When I was a teenager, my mother went into a coma and stayed in a coma till she died 10 years later. She was legally deaf, dumb, and paralyzed, and he had appointed a legal guardian for my mother and several executors of the will to handle things for my brother and me in the case of my father's death so that my mother, my brother and I would be well taken care of. Well, they (Scientology) misinterpreted the whole thing - that I had had a legal guardian and had been declared legally insane, incompetent in the court, so I not knowing what they thought, and they thinking what they thought, went after my father. When I realized what it was, when someone called me and asked, "Were you or were you not in a court of law on this matter?", I said "No." He said, "Were you or were you not declared legally insane?" I said, "No, I was not." He said, "I do not believe what I'm hearing." He said, "What happened?" So I gave him the story about my mother, and again he said, "I do not believe what I'm hearing." "He should have done exactly that - you two were minors, and all he was doing was protecting his sick wife and two minor children-" Q Okay. So they told you that you would get shock treatment? E I said that I was going to call Sam, my father's friend who was going to handle this thing nicely between my father and me. He was involved with me all of my life - he's known me since my birth - and could arrange this thing. And they said, "No", I could not use Sam or any other Jersey lawyer, that my father was too powerful and influential and that once he found out that I was involved with Scientology he was going to have me committed to an institution and given shock treatments. And they went on and on about my father and his relationship to psychiatry (which was all in their imagination) because it's all a part of their technology. Q Did you believe that your father would have you committed? E Well, at this point, when they sat down and physically described what was going to happen to me, I was so shaken up I was not about to ever enter New Jersey again. I was so scared. I thought, "Oh, my God, I must have been pretty naive - all of my life I didn't know who I had been living with - here's this man who is insane and a crazy person ... Q They turned you against your father? E Yes. Q And you sued him. E Well, I sued him reluctantly because T wanted to have Sam handle this. So they had, without my knowing it, set up everything with another lawyer whom the Executive Director knew personally. Later an ... Q They paid the lawyer? E No, no, I paid the lawyer for all their calls and visits before I even knew about all of this - out of monies they assumed I was going to get with this lawsuit. Q So you filed a suit, and then you withdrew it ... meanwhile you alienated yourself from your father. E Yes, I had to move out of the house - it was a 28-acre estate with a reconverted barn, which was now a guest house, a pool. It was magnificent ... it's worth many millions of dollars - just the land alone today ... and I was ordered out. And only in this way could I stand up to a man who was so diabolical and so dangerous to this planet. Q As you thought your father was? E Well, as the technology said he was, and as they explained, various things I didn't know, okay, through their various means which I still don't know all of because these things are shrouded in confidentiality - they have policies which the average Scientologist doesn't know about - they have ways of dealing and manipulating that none of the average Scientologist know about. But as the Executive Director said, what was in the tech was that a coup is okay so long as it turns out allright. Q So the ends justify the means? E Absolutely. And besides that, her ( E.D.) next-in-charge had just had a few, what you would call transgressions against the Church. He had left their main organization at Flag - he was one of the 12 most highly trained individuals in the world, and he had so many amends to make to the church via Ethics, their ethics system, that this 'was going to be a terrific bonus for them. Q I see. Okay. So you ended up getting money from your father? I withdrew the suit. I went to the organization which was senior to this one. I confided in one of the staff members. Q Who was a minister? E Yes, he was my course supervisor. I went and I was crying to him - I had just spent many thousands on auditing. Q I know ... they call it counselling. E Yes. But because of my upsets with my father I was spending what they call intensives - 12 1/2 hours at so many thousands of dollars. Q How long does it take to do? E They had me scheduled at least two or sometimes up to five times a week to do what they call intensive counselling ... so that I could not be interrupted by upsets in life such as this. Anyway, I told him how I felt about it and he said, "Keep your mouth shut - I am going to the G.O." The G.O. is, or was at that time, the Guardians Office. They were the No. 1. in control. They have their own policies that supersede any policies there to help people (?). They are there to guard and protect Scientology at any cost. Q I understand they don't exist any more. E No. I'm sure my complaints were ... I mean I had horror stories and there were other horror stories equal to mine. Now this organization was disbanded (the G.O.), but it has been replaced by another one called OSA. Office of Special Affairs. And they are very special - and they have the same exact departments - the legal department the P.R. department - the ethics department, etc. Q The same staff? E Almost entirely when it was first started ... it was the same staff. Q I see. E The policy is even more solid than it was in the first place - or even more separate than they were as the Guardian's Office. They are even more intent in what they are doing - they have more ammunition because the policy has been so-called safeguarded even more so because of the G.O. mistakes, and this time they are seeing to it that those doors are never opened. They remain in the condition they call 'fabian.' They cannot be known - they cannot be found - they will not even sign their names on memos going from one department to another - they simply sign "Love" and no name, because if they're investigated then no one can prove who sent what to whom or who did what to whom. Q Okay. Well, E And if they're caught at it even by ministers (their Scientology counselor in a session?) for some of their devious things - some very illegal things - it's allowable so long as they can prove it was for the greatest good of the greatest number of people and for the planet, which simply means anyone can be knocked down for the sake of their purposes. Q Okay. We are going to get back later to your statement about illegal things because I want to give you the opportunity to support your allegations. E Okay. Q What I'd like to know now is how did you get the money from your father. E We spoke back and forth on the phone and at this one point - he was very broken-hearted - he said he was sorry he had said "No". I had taken him aback - he was surprised that I'd come to his office and asked him this and there were staff there and he had just never dealt with me on a monetary basis. We had never spoken in these terms. He agreed that the monies were mine and he was going to meet me and give them to me, but I was forbidden to see him until after he mailed me the money. Q You mean Scientology forbade you to meet your father to get the money they wanted? E Right. Q Why would they do that? E Because he was in a condition of treason to the planet - he was the enemy of the planet. Q You mean they really believed this ... ? E At best he was really considered a suppressive person which is an intentionally vicious person who must do you in before you can do him in. In other words, they really believed it? E Oh, absolutely. And believe me, they had me quite convinced. Well, that's not true because all I did was cry because I couldn't relate what I felt about my father to what I was trying to believe about my father, and they came on with such authority and such knowingness and conviction that you couldn't doubt them. I know that if I had ever been called to take a stand, I probably would have defended them against him because at certain points I was already convinced. Q They really had taken your mind and your feelings over. E Not my feelings because I was still upset, and the man (father?) was crying, he was crying and begging me, and in the last conversation I had he refused. He said, "Allright, you will never hear from me again," and hung up the phone. And he was ill. Q Did you ever hear from him again? I had family begging me, I had friends begging me, saying. "What are you doing, what are you doing?" I kept crying, going to ethics, spending intensive after intensive, thousands and thousands, in fact, tens of thousands of dollars on this issue alone. Q And they got what they wanted? E Oh yes, they got $150,000 from me plus many years of free services as amends for all the misdeeds of my past. The fact that I was this man's daughter - the fact that I had joined another organization which they call a squirrel group, an organization called EST. Q Oh, you were in EST? E Yes. Q For a long time? E Two years. And I had worked for them for 6 weeks, and I had to pay for those 6 weeks. I worked 6 months free. Q You worked 6 months free for Scientology ... ? E In Celebrity Centre. Q To make up for the fact that you had worked 6 weeks in EST? E Yes. EST is a derivative of Scientology - in part - it takes from various isms. And I had to work a year and a half in the G.O. and do certain special projects for them to make up also or I would not be allowed to have my upper levels. Q Okay. So when you were working for Scientology free to make up for your past misdeeds, what were you living on? E I was living on $10,000 - the money I was asking for, my father had turned into a trust. Q I see. E He would not at this point ... he felt I was so influenced by them he couldn't trust me with it anymore, but he didn't want to take it from me. He had it made into an irrevocable trust, and after that was done they said it's nothing because I could borrow off the base. But it was set up in such a way that I couldn't even borrow. So then after my father died, I got certain monies up front as the beneficiary of certain life insurance policies, nowhere near the amount that I had at one time thought I was going to be getting. One came in at around $30,000 and another around $5,000, and another one we weren't sure if it was mine or not was for $25,000. And I went down there (where ?) after I got my money and put a couple of hundred down on vl)at they call the IAS - the International Association of Scientologists. Q You wanted to give them a couple of hundred. E Yes, for a donation because, per policy, you can't receive any other services unless you are a member of the IAS. Q I read somewhere they have 24,000 members today. E I don't have any idea what they have. I could take a guestimate of numbers on the list that I have seen. Anyway, I went in and they convinced me - they do what's called a gang-bang and a gang-bang is when several of the staff members get together and cry on your shoulder and tell you all the reasons why you must contribute huge sums of money, and if that doesn't work then they tell you why you better do it if you want the rest of the services. Q Did they use the term "gang bang" to you? E It wasn't used at the time. It was used later on when a staff member who worked on me got my money. He called and wanted me to join in a "gang bang" on another Scientologist who was my friend and who was in a position to give tens of thousands also, and who had not. And my answer to the staff member was, "I didn't like it when you did it to me; I don't believe in those tactics and I refuse to do it." Q Okay. So how late did they keep you up with the gang bang? E Well, the gang bangs went on till 3:00 in the morning or later ... Q You mean there was more than one? E Oh yes, many more than one. Q Consecutive nights? E Some were on consecutive nights. Q You did not get much sleep then. E No. Q And were you working at the time? E Yes. Q You were a school teacher? E Yes. Q Every morning you would get up ... E I had to be up at 5;30. Well, they finally talked me into paying for my lifetime, which was several thousand dollars. Q Your lifetime? E Lifetime membership. What I wanted to do was ... I had not yet gotten the money from the insurance policies and so I wanted to pay them a few hundred and then in a few months when this thing was settled, I would pay them the rest for the lifetime membership. While one staff member was being very nice to me cutting my hair and inviting me to a party, they went into another room and called a very wealthy Scientologist and arranged (they have habits of doing this when you don't know about it) for him to loan me $15,000 because my inheritance money hadn't gotten to me yet so I didn't have it to give them. Q So did you know this other wealthy Scientologist? E No, I never knew him until after the situation. Q I see. E So they arranged for him to charge it to his charge card. I had just gotten a Master Charge the month before and had never used it. This was in October, and I did not understand how to handle these things. They sat down again and calculated out the insurance policies, how much I would have from the jewelry my mother left me, and which my father left me when he died, which he had been keeping until that time. They convinced me I would have assets in this amount. So I said that I simply did not know that, and until I got it I did not want to give them the money, so I left. A staff member came up the following day, as I was getting ready to go out, with a plant and some eggnog and said that the IAS had figured out a way for me to have all the money and to be able to buy my "Ls" at Flag. What are "Ls"? E They cost over $75,000 and are counselling procedures. They were waiting for me and were going to tell me all about this, and in the meantime the other staff member had kept calling her asking what was keeping her so long - this going on with two phone calls - at my house. I explained that I was getting ready and so she was going to wait for me. Meanwhile he had called and said there were many things be had not told me about, and that there was a tape he wanted me to see (a video) and other tapes on what the IAS stands for and what they are fighting, etc. I went down and I was kept there until there was no way I could leave and still feel like a decent human being. Q Were they physically restraining you? E No. But they were crying. They were getting loud speaker things (?) about how the churches in Italy were going down because the Italian government was invading the churches, taking over the churches, getting hold of P.C. folders (those are the folders of people who are getting counselling) and literally wrecking all of Scientology in Italy, and these people were in tears and were looking at me like "You are the only one who can save them - please help us." And though I felt bad, and I was willing to give them a little more, then they came down with it, but good, and told me point blank, "There is no way you will ever have the O.T. levels" which I had paid for in 1979. O.T. levels are advanced levels where ..... this is going to be very difficult to explain ... Q You mean they are upper levels of enlightenment? E Yes. I had paid for them by selling my oriental rugs, sterling silver tea set ... Q You paid for them in 1979 and you still hadn't gotten them by 1986? E Yes, December 1986. They were holding around $20,000 on account and told me I could not use it. Q They told you you still could not use it? E Yes - if I was not going to become a sponsor and a patron. One status was $20,000 and the other was $40,000. They said they might let me get through O.T. III - that's the 3rd level of advanced stages but they knew I would never be allowed to do IV, V, VI and VII until I was a full patron for $40,000. So they got their $20,000 from me. Now back to the arrangement they had made with this man who had used, not a Mastercard which they had explained to me at this point thoroughly, but had used an American Express credit card. So I thought that I had a full month before they billed me, and then another month before I'd have to start to pay it off. Now I find out, and so I had invested my money through another Scientologist who was Vice President of a very well-known stock brokerage firm, who advised me to get into options - puts and calls - and he had worked out a way through Solo Nots that I would have to win, and he was going to use this (method) for all Scientologists. Solo Nots? E It's the most advanced state in Scientology at this point. Q So he used advanced Scientology data to win on the stock market? E Exactly. Q Did you win? E No. I lost a lot of money, over $8,000, on this infallible method. Q So it wasn't the church that did this? E No. I think his intentions were good. He is a true believer, and I was naive. I, too was a true believer, and I would have done anything at that point to salvage Italy. I really felt that ... Q You were going to save the whole country of Italy. You've never been there, have you? E Yes, I have been to Italy, as a matter of fact, and I could see visions of all these little faces looking at me with tears Q Here's a kleenex. Let's take a little break here. All right, how are you doing now? E I'm feeling better. Now where were we? Q Italian faces looking at you, saying "Save Italy." E And the church. And mankind. And this entire sector of the universe. Q The universe? E Yeah. The universe on my back. Q For $40,000 that you were going to give them today. E Well, I could only give them $20,000. That's all I was certain of at that point. Q If you had the money E I did not have the money, so they arranged to have this man (sniff) ... Q ... arrange to lend you the money. Meanwhile you got the money from the insurance company, but instead of paying the man back ... E I didn't get enough of it. I now had to be paying out monies and charging the Mastercard all the rest, and paying off interest on that money, and then, meanwhile, all the other people were demanding their money back. Now the IAS told me that I'd have till February 15th before I had to pay a dime. So we had invested, the stock broker and I, in the options and the stock broker cleared it with them. He asked them, "Are you certain now, because once the money is paid in, it can't be taken out without a loss." And they were absolutely positive. They came up another night, in the middle of the night, didn't even get there till about 11:00, stayed till nearly 5 a.m. and demanded that I pay back the persons involved who were now having a committee of evidence on these various church members, which is where the church steps in and adjudicates who is right and who is wrong, and who has to make amends for a situation. Q So who is in trouble? E The staff members who had arranged it were now in trouble, because the man did not yet have his money back, I did not yet have all the money, and they said that per my original agreement with them I was to pay, and that was that. Then one of them said, "If you have to take a loss, we will not pay for any money you would have made (the options were to have made a guaranteed profit, but the money had to be left in for a certain time). But it's only a month of investment, and if you have to take a loss, I guarantee you that difference. Q I see. E I pulled the money out. Oh, in the meantime, the stock broker and my FSM (everyone has an FSM who helps them get through these levels) had gotten together and were really upset that I was putting this kind of money in when I didn't even have my own security handled at this point. I was upset for the same reason. And they wanted me to sell these limited editions of Battlefield Earth to handle it. They put in writing what they were going to do, which was to handle the sale of some of my mother's jewelry and the sale of the Battlefield Earths, and that would raise the money to help save Italy. But they backed out of that. These items were supposed to be worth over $20,000. Q You had collector's editions ... very special books signed by Ron? E Yes. They were limited editions, very special books signed by Ron Hubbard, the founder, gold embossed, and in their own slip cases, and in wooden cases, and what have you. But then they reneged on all of that and left me out on a limb. They then demanded that I pay this man, and they would pay me for the losses. Well, since then, no one remembers anything about that. Ken had ... the only reason Ken released the money was that I convinced him that they had promised to make up the losses, which I at the time thought would be a couple of hundred dollars. After it was over, it turned out I lost over $450 in that transaction. Q That's quite a bit. E Yes, and that "Quite a bit" is probably why they lost their recall on it. They don't remember the promise. Q Didn't you say that you did on your own sell those Battlefield Earths to that same man? E I sold one to that same man who refused to pay any more than $2000. He tried to get it for $1500. Q How much had you paid for it? E I paid $2500 for it. Q So he actually paid less. That was all you could get, eh? E That was all I could get, all he would give me for it. Q And this was supposed to be an investment. They had sold you the book as an investment. E: Oh, he knew he could get more for it. But you need time and you need the right contacts. The same man who promised to make up for the losses of these two individuals, one of them came to school where I taught. He was one of the ones involved in the gang bang and had come to my house, but it was his actual partner who had made the promise (of making up the $4500 loss), and he nodded in agreement. He didn't actually make the promise, but he was the one who wrote (I have that) that he was going to do various other things to get me more money, help me with the sale of the jewelry and also the Battlefield Earths. He actually came to school on several occasions, He walked into my room. I couldn't believe how he found the room or how he knew where I was.. He asked for me in the office, and they let him come up. I was trying to teach a lesson, and he's talking to me in the corner. I couldn't believe it. And this went on quite a few times. Q He went to your classroom and tried to talk you out of money while you were trying to teach a room full of children? E Yes. Yep. It's really unreal. Q I guess it was a lot of pressure. E They had terrific pressure, you see, because they didn't want this committee of evidence on their heads because it would have meant all kinds of amends. Q Oh, because their boss was investigating them E Exactly. For mishandling the other man's money. Q Because he was rich and he didn't like what was happening. E He's a very wealthy, well-known business man in this area. He's got his magnificent place on Wilshire Boulevard. Q Well, we had to take a break and now we are in a different place. We've left the restaurant and we're in a beautiful garden, so we are going to continue, Edwina. E Okay. Q You lost how much money on that? E The original amount was $20,010 and then some $4500. Q The $4500 was the penalty for taking that money out a couple weeks early. E Yes. Q And did you ever get that reimbursed? E No. I have gotten, since I requested it recently, I have gotten a phone call and two messages where they say they're confused, and they don't know what this is all about, and I had to write to them to state that there was no reason to be confused, that the issue was clearly stated. I see. So now you mentioned to me earlier about having to destroy psychiatry? E Well, once the word got out that I was declared illegal ... Q We haven't gotten to that yet. E Well, I was declared illegal, and I'll get into that later. Then I got phone calls from various different parts of their organization demanding that I put up many thousands of dollars to get rid of psychiatry, and until that group is disbanded there would be no hope of me getting any further than the advanced level III. Right now one can have advanced levels up through VII, and shortly there will be available advanced level VIII. You had paid through VII? Yes, I had paid through VII in 1979. Q And they were telling you now you could only get through III. E Yes. They said there would be no way I was going to get any further than III, and even III would be questionable, and until I saw to it that psychiatry was disbanded (and this would be the kind of help they wanted, financial help) ... Q They wouldn't let you use the money you had already paid, but you had paid $20,000. E That's right. Q They said that if you donated the $20,000 you could get the advanced levels, but now they bad changed their mind? E Yes. And the very fact that they took the money for the advanced levels in the first place is so unethical, to hold that money when I could at least have made interest in my credit union over those years. They've had that money since 1979. Q So when were you declared illegal? What does that mean? E Well, okay. There was a question as to whether or not I was legal in the very first place. Before I was allowed any of their counselling in 1976, the executive director wrote to the G.O. explaining who my father was and that I had had what they call a psych. background. I had seen psychiatrists. And he somehow managed to get this thing waived and allow me auditing or counselling. And then again in 1978 or 1979, 1 was declared an illegal P.C., and I had to write up these very intricate forms. Q What is an illegal P.C.? E It is someone who is not allowed counselling. Q What's a P.C.? E When you are audited or counselled you get to a state of clear. Anyone who has not reached the state of clear is called a preclear. It is also a term used even if you are a clear or beyond the state of clear such as what they call O.T. - they will still call you a P.C. because that's the term they have adopted for someone receiving counselling. Q So any parishioner who gets counselling they call a P.C.? E Yes. Q And you were an illegal P.C. because your father was a doctor and because you had been to see a psychiatrist? E Not just because my father was a doctor, but because of who my father 'was'. Q I see. But you had already disconnected and separated from your father? E I did not speak to him for a year while I fought the whole thing. Until I had fought it successfully and got the O.K., then I immediately ... Q So you paid this money in February, or March? E The $20,000? Q Yes. E No. I paid that in December ... Q And when were you declared illegal? E That May. Q May? So between December and May did you get any auditing? E Nothing. Q Did you try to get auditing? E Well, I had been trying since I got here. I was sent here. Q Then you were trying? E Since 1982, but they lost my folders. They lost my ethics folders, too. They lost all the records and they couldn't give you auditing without the records? E No. But then they wanted me to pay for that. Pay for reconstructing my folders, and I refused because per their policy, the one who loses the folders is responsible for paying. It went from one organization to another till it vent up to the highest group which is called RTC, and the man from RTC said it was ridiculous, and how could they ask you to pay for reconstructing something when it's not there to reconstruct. Q I see. E And he said, "What are you supposed to do, go without auditing forever if they can't find these folders?" I said, "those are the Questions I've been asking all along." Q So what happened? Did you then get your auditing? E I still did not get my auditing. And I've wasted 6 years in California, 6 years of my life waiting for something that never happened. Q So then someone sent down an order that you were an illegal P.C., and that meant you could never get any auditing? E That's right. So they wanted me to use all of my money on various training and various donations to get rid of various groups they don't want, particularly psychiatry. And now we are talking again in many thousands of dollars and when I was firm about saying "No", I even hung up on the guy and lie would call back. He said, "Well, can't you at least give $2000?" I said, "No, I cannot give $2000, I will not give $2000, and it's final." And then he was threatening to call the ethics officer, he was threatening to call the chaplain, he was threatening to call everybody in town over the whole matter because I was clearly not interested in disbanding psychiatrists at this point. It seemed that I was responsible for disbanding anything in this world they didn't like before I could use the money already paid, and that I had received nothing for since 1979. Q Okay. That was in May. When did you finally decide [tape runs out on side one] ... E the worst that could happen to me would be that I would die right then and there, but if I didn't die, I would become so violently ill that I would wish I were dead, and I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. She [?] wasn't making sense to me. I thought, "What the hell is this? They've been keeping my money all these years for me to find out about body thetans. Q Body thetans? E Body thetans. Incredible, insane thing, and clusters. A thetan is something that is not in the physical universe. it has no mass, it cannot be grabbed. You can't see it or feel it or touch it. Q So what's a body thetan? E It's a thetan which attaches itself to your body ... Q Like possession? E Well, it's ... don't ask me how it's supposed to be done. I know Ron Hubbard had a terrific imagination and was a great science fiction writer, and I think he had a terrific imagination when it comes to body thetans. It can't be done. He's claiming that something that has no physical properties is attaching itself to something else that has no physical properties. So anyway, these "creatures", thousands of these creatures are attached to your body. Q You mean that's the secret of Scientology E Yes, and they follow you when you leave your body at death, and they follow you about from body to body ... and in between lives. You have no mass, it has no mass, but somehow it's attached to you. As if it had nothing better to do for all eternity than to follow you about. So therefore, if you do anything wrong or are feeling strange sensations, it's the body thetans. Now I mean, I can't begin to tell you that after spending $150,000 I find out this. I mean, I was so shaken up for a couple of weeks, and one of my very dearest friends from Scientology walked by, and I see her from a pizza parlor and I ran out of the pizza parlor and I grabbed her and I'm crying and I'm crying that I've got this material and what am I going to do. (And, oh, by the way, they come in clusters, too, and they attach themselves to any part of your body, including personal parts, and you have to audit this out in counselling). I tell you, I can't believe it. At any rate, I'm crying, "What am I going to do?", and she looked at me and smiled sweetly and said, "Well, you're still standing, aren't you?" And I thought to myself, "Gee, I am, I'm not dead." So apparently they must think that my awareness is so low ... See, that was the other thing. If you get this material before you're ready, you'll either pass it off as a joke or as something not real, and only when you're ready can you accept the truth of this. You see, that was part of my being declared illegal. I was clearly not ready for this. They are right on that, see, because I will never be ready for this, you know. And now, I am not trying to make fun of a religious belief, but I'm sorry, I can't abide by it. It's not real to me. I think they are deluding themselves, honest-to-god really think they are making up this. I mean, part of being clear is making things up - what they call mocking up a bank, a reactive mind, and I really think they are mocking up body thetans right, left and center. That is my opinion. I have a right to say it, that's the way I sec it. Q Okay. Thank you. Now would it be allright if we go back in and talk about some of the things that happened in your personal life? E Fine. Q I understand that at one time you were engaged to be married to a fellow? E Yes. Q And he was in the Sea Organization - is that correct? E Now wait. There were two men. One I was actually about to marry, and he died. They forced him ... Q Tell me the story from beginning to end. E Well, I met him at a play. He came in with some friends and we all ... well, I was escorted in, but he wanted to sit next to me, and I felt ... he just wanted to sit next to me too much. And before the night was over, we all left and went out to a place and ate. And he paid for the thing, and lie was kind of showing off, and he very quietly said, "Gee, I had a nice time. Would it be allright if I called you sometime?" And I really realized that this guy was nice, so I really wanted him to call me. A few days went by, and lie didn't call. So I was calling my friend and saying, "Where is he, why hasn't he called me yet? He can't care about me very much if he hasn't called me yet." Anyway, one thing led to another, and we had planned on being married. His family had taken me out to celebrate, and my family loved this guy. It was perfect. Our relationship was so close - it was just incredible. And he was living with me at the time, and one night he was ordered out of my apartment. I woke up the next morning and he was gone. Q Who ordered him out? E The Guardian's Office. Q Why would they want him out of your apartment? E You tell me and then we'll both know. Q What was their interest in him? E He had not been in Scientology for some time and was coming back in. Q Out or just inactive. E Inactive. I don't know the whole story. The whole thing was shrouded in mystery as are so many things that go on. He had various amends projects to do because of, I guess, this absenteeism - you know, whatever. They considered him very keyed into his, what they call his NOTs case (another advanced level), and he had to clean that up before ... well, all I know is that I was called down by the chaplain, Carl Brezino, and a representative from the Guardian's Office, and they told me I was not to communicate with him. And he had been told not to communicate with me, not even by phone. Was there any warning - anything said to you before he left? E Nothing. Oh, yes, there was. Well, they had him tell me certain things about himself that he didn't want to tell me. I heard it and I thought, "The hell with it. It's done and it's over with." Then ... I guess what they were trying to say to me was "This person is a bad person." And I didn't feel he was a bad person. We got so close to the wedding that we even had his brother and his brother's wife who was going to stand up for me. Everything was set. Did they call you down and tell you to leave him? E I, uh, went to his house - I went to his house to see what in the hell was going on. I was hysterical. And be ... [sigh] ... Anyway, there was very little said between us. Q Did he say he loved you? E Well, that's the next thing. He said ... in various other conversations I told him I wanted him to return my keys - he had left with my keys - he had his things in my apartment - "What the hell is going on?" - and I had an inkling that this could happen, and he did say, "One thing I will do is if I'm forced to leave, I will leave my things there to let you know that I'm not really gone." Ah. E And I get a call from the lobby (I lived in an apartment hotel), and he said, "It's Jim, I have your keys. Do you want me to leave them at the desk or do you want me to come up?" I said, "Come up." He came up and we decided that he was going to do whatever he had to do and then we would take up where we left off, and we kissed goodbye and agreed to contact each other by phone every day despite what we were told. As far as a marriage date or anything else, that was the end of that one. We were supposed to be married at the end of September. In the meantime, I suspected strongly that he had been on lines all along and involved in a mission. What do you mean mission?" E Well, the Guardian's Office and certain other individuals are on missions and usually that is riot discussed in anyway. Q What kind of things do they do? E Whatever they do. There are missions where - the big one where they - that big episode where they went into one of the government buildings and hid and took documents - that would be a mission. Q You mean intelligence missions? E Their intelligence missions, sure. And I suspected it and I couldn't prove it, and he couldn't say anything. Illegal things. I don't think he was the type to do anything illegal, but I know it has been done. That I know because I went with a person in the G.O. some years before that, and I got information that most people don't get. Q Right. In the meantime I got a phone call from a man that I knew very well through Jim (they had gone to grammar school together), and Frank said, "Have you seen Jim?" I said, "Not since last week-" And he said, "Well, I have bad news for you." Well, they had found a body in Queens, and Jim's brother was going over to look at the body now, but he had to leave his home to do this which was way down on the Island, and be said, "It may be Jim's body.,, I said, "Please call me as soon as you know." And I went directly to the MAA (ethics officer) screaming ... MAA is the Master at Arms, which is the Sea Org ethics officer who only handles certain personnel, and I knew he was seeing him and Jeannie Bovgazird whose husband was the Continental Captain. Q I see. So you went screaming in there? E Like a raving maniac. I wanted to know where he was, what they bad done. I wanted to know this and I wanted to know that, etc., etc., and the guy claimed to know nothing, which is not unusual, and he made a few phone calls. All we knew was there was a body and no one knew whose. And he had someone take me out for, what they call a locational assist, to get my attention out of it. A help-type action. And I went home, and it was confirmed that it was Jim. Q Wow. How did he die? E A fall. Q A fall in Queens? Off of what? E Well, he had, like, holes in his nose and part of his face from trying to grasp on to a screen in this manner - if you could only see it. He apparently had fallen and was grabbing on to a screen. Q A fall out of a building? E Yes. He was trying to get in his father's office. He did a lot of work in his father's offices. His father was a lawyer. That was part of what they didn't like about him. You see, my father was a doctor and his father was a lawyer. Q Did you ever find out what he was doing outside the window? E Well, I know he was a climber. I had been told he had forgotten keys many times, and he would climb in and out of things like this. Q So you think it was an accident? E Yes. But I wasn't there so I don't know what happened. I know they said it was instantaneous, and when you viewed the body in the casket you couldn't see anything. It was covered by hair. The only thing you could see was the screen marks where he had tried to grasp the screen. Q Okay. Allright. Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to hear about your next fiance. E Well, this was before Jim. Q Oh, before Jim there was Paul. E Yes. Paul lived with me as a room renter. He rented a room in my apartment. I had had many roommates on and off over the years, which helped me pay bills. And he was going with someone at the time who was working, not as a member of the Guardian's Office, but as what they called a "GAS", a Guardian's assistant. And she came to the apartment for a couple of weeks to work with Paul, or whatever, and then she went back to California. Q Where was this? E In New York. And the next thing I was overhearing over the phone - it was him having conversations with her, and at one point I realized (after all, he's talking and I'm walking round my apartment, so I could hear) that they bad broken up. At some point after that he sat me down in my room on my bed and said, "There's something I need to discuss with you. It's important." He said, "I know your position in the Church, you know mine, but I want to have a permanent relationship with you. I don't know how Here going to go about doing it, but I'm going to petition." Q Why would you have to petition to have a relationship with a man? I don't understand. E Because of my position in the Church. He was in the Guardian's Office and had access to confidential data, and he was called a Missionaire Victorious. Q Oh. E He was posted there to handle Mary Sue Hubbard's case personally. Q Her legal case. E Yes, so someone who knew all that confidential data to be dating me whose father was so high in the AMA, so it just couldn't be. Forget it. It was hands off. There was nothing that could be done, but be didn't care, he was going to petition. And then the petition was denied, and he was told to cease his relationship or he would be removed from the Guardian's Office, etc., etc., etc. So after a great deal of crying and upset, we stayed together for one more week, and then one more week, this kind of thing ... and well, he moved back into his separate room which is what he promised them he would do. So we remained friends, and then after a period of time we started all over again. Now, this time he decided to petition Ron Hubbard himself. He was getting furious at this point because, well, you know, you want to be with whom you want to be with, and not have to plead for this right. It was like the Montagues and the Capulets, and so, he petitioned Ron and then, of course, the answer came back, "Policy is Policy, and that's it." So now he had to move out of the apartment totally. He couldn't be trusted in my apartment, and you know, you do learn the inner mechanisms. I had missionaires in and out of there, and you are awakened at 3:00 in the morning because someone's running here and someone's running there, and emergency phone calls to L.A., so you get to hear all these legal terms, and things like this. So you know things before they hit the public, and you hear it a little differently than they announce to the public. You know, the way they P.R. a situation may not be the entire truth. They say what they care to say and omit what they care to omit. So I guess I was exposed to things that I shouldn't have been exposed to from their viewpoint. So this time he got back the answer, "Policy is Policy", and he showed me Ron's answer along with his petition which I had not seen before. I had seen his first petition, and the second petition was very weird. He was petitioning to be able to have a relationship with anyone he wanted, me as one of those. And I strongly suspected that he showed me the petition -which was irrational - he would not petition Ron to have a relationship with me and whoever else you wanted it with, and I felt that the petition had been altered and that they had him show it to me so that I could see that it was an insane petition doomed to be denied. Q Then it was out of character E Yes. Here was a man who wanted to have sex 'with me and others,' and he had no history of doing anything but being totally loyal. It's not sane. You don't do this. And then I saw certain friends of his prepping him on him to attract other girls. Like "Now you have to get out there and meet the right person." You see, I was not the right person. I was fine. I was a Scientologist, but I was different. So now it was Me and Them. It's not we and us. So now he had to find someone who met their standard. Q Why didn't you leave Scientology then? E Because I wanted eternal freedom. I wanted freedom from overwhelm. I wanted these higher states of awareness that I thought were there. And you will go through whatever you have to go through to have such a reward as that in the end. They said their technology was going to show us this eternal freedom. So no matter what it cost in money and personal losses (and those hurts were deep), you did what you had to do. Q Yes. Thank you. Edwina, you have brought me a pile (about two feet high) of paper work which all seems to be things that you have written to Scientology. Petitions? E Yes. Q Why would a petition be an inch thick? E Because of the data they require. Q Now, the first time you petitioned, what were you petitioning for? E Well, the first petition was done by the man at Celebrity Center that I had told you about. he was second in charge, what they call the D. E.D. Deputy Executive Director. I was petitioning just to get auditing. What year was this? E 1976. Q And what did you have to put in this petition? E My history in Scientology thus far and what was going on, and basically was to let them know that all upsets were fine and okay with me. It was, no matter what awful things occurred, it was always okay with me. Q Well, I see something here about "living love center and EST" E It was organizations that they call "S Quirrel Groups" that I had belonged to. Q And names of everybody you knew in these organizations? E Yes, I had to name them and give my relationship with each. Q My god, there are pages and pages - must have been everybody YOU knew. E And then, later on, for various different reasons - one which was just to proceed with auditing - I was again declared illegal - and on another occasion when I wanted to join staff, you have to do these life histories which are very, very detailed questions about everything you've ever done. Every organization you've belonged to, every hobby, every club, every job, every relationship that you've had with a man. it just goes on and on and on. Q What did you have to say about your relationships with men? E Who the person was. What 'was the relationship? flow long did it last? Things like that. Did sex occur, did it not occur? How frequently? Very, very detailed questions. Who your mother is, who your father is, the jobs they had, who they are, what they did. It just goes on, and on and on Q I see. I've got a copy here entitled "Life History Writeup.11 "Write a complete writeup of your history, your lovelife, any perversions, any homosexual relationship you have been involved in. Please be as complete as possible - all data received is confidential." E Data received is not confidential because during my expulsion, my auditor not only wrote up things I said in session, she then altered them, exaggerated and distorted them to a point where it was unbelievable. Q What? She revealed confidential data you gave in session? E Well, that's why the expulsion order got cancelled, and it says in the cancellation that the expulsion was due to false reports. Q I see, but not because she divulged confidential information? E It didn't say she divulged confidential information, it said it was due to false reports. Q And here's something else. "Do you have a criminal history of any kind?" "Do you know anyone who works for the Government?" "Who are they and what kind of relationship do you have with them?" "Do you know anyone who works for a newspaper?" "Where did you meet him or what kind of a relationship did you have?" "Have you ever attempted or thought of suicide?" "When and how many times?" ''Have you ever been part of a squirrel group?", etc. "Details, please." Those are just some of the questions. Now your life history form here is 12 pages long, typewritten, legal size. Is that the usual size? E Oh, this was just one life history form. There was an even more detailed one for joining the Sea Org. Q Oh, then what was this one for? E This one was just to be able to proceed with auditing. Q Oh, then this is just the light one. E Yes. And then there was the petition for Paul. He actually had to do the petition in this case (I could not), but we were hoping that we would get through my petition cycle in enough time so that then I could marry him once I got through whatever projects they put me through, and then I would be considered supposedly eligible to now marry him. I would now be good enough. I would have racked up enough good points on the good side of the board to balance all the bad. Q I see, so he was petitioning to have a relationship with you and you were petitioning to be an acceptable Scientologist? E Right. Q There must be hundreds, maybe thousands of pages here. "Continuous and Chronological History.'' Good God. E Well, that one really got cuckoo because I decided to adopt what they called a "valence", and I accused them of all kinds of insanities in the same manner I thought they were accusing me, and I thought, "Now go stick that in your hat." Q Wow, this one here is 93 pages long. E Right, and that was before I even met Jim and got into that mess. And with all the mess of coming to Los Angeles - they all said I had to come to L.A. because the reason for Jim's death and the reason for all the upset was my O.T. III case. They said my O.T. III case was sitting on my head. So I came running to L.A., gave up my apartment, stuck everything in storage to go have these levels. And what happened, they lose my folders. And at this point I don't know if they even lost them. I think they may have sent them, someone suggested, several have suggested, that they sent them up lines for security purposes because in my folders was data that they did not want out. From Paul? E From Paul and others. And data I knew they did not want out because it would be very, very bad publicity, so I think those folders are in a spot where they can be kept. They do something with them. They cull, they delete certain things, and the way they explain it is, let's say you were auditing Ron Hubbard, and in that session he said, "In New York ... blab, blab in the Bronx.'' Well, then they remove that so no one would know where Ron was. So they have certain purposes for removing things that they don't want anyone knowing. So I firmly believe my folders were never lost. Then they lost my ethics folders. And you know, with each one of these, I bad to reconstruct all of this data. The chaplain told me when I was declared illegal that all of this that you see in front of you Yes. And all that stuff in the ethics folders, all had to be re-copied because they lost it, and you know at whose expense? Do you know how, many dollars worth of xeroxing that would be? And then did you petition again once you were declared illegal last May (1987)? E No. I just couldn't bring myself to go through that whole routine again, and I didn't care to spend the money and the time. I started to go about the business of getting ready to do it, but I just could not deal with it again. It looked like an utter refusal. Oh, this one is when I requested ... Q Handwritten notes? E Yes, because there are millions more questions that were asked by the woman who was to become a very good friend of mine, who lived in the apartment opposite me at the time. In England she was the Assistant to the Guardian World Wide. (The Guardian WW was Jane Kember). Then after I went through writing all that garbage, they disbanded the Guardian's Office, and I had to re-write the whole damn thing to The Executive Director International, who then was removed, and I had to keep re-petitioning new people in the position of E.D. International. Q And this was to get permission to use the money ... E That I had already paid them. Q Is there anything else you had to do besides write petitions? E Well, there were several things you had to do. You had to do what they called a "TIP", and that's 'where they tell you what courses you need to take to become eligible to get the kind of awarenesses you need. The word "TIP" stands for Tech Individual Program. And so they give you a whole list of courses you need, and then you have certain programs you have to do of good works Q Hospitals? E No, no, no. As I told you I had worked for Celebrity Center for six months. Which Celebrity Center? E The one in Manhattan. I then worked for the Guardian's Office for a year and a half in many different positions. In P.R. In legal. In social coordinations, etc. I then had to do a raffle project for which I was highly commended. I worked at the Advanced Org (AOLA) in what they called the ARC Break team for several months. They were going to pay me; then they decided they couldn't pay me, so they gave me a training award instead. In my first petition they gave me a program which was to do certain courses, and then when the new people took over and whom I had to petition again, these new people totally ignored the first petition recommendation for courses, and now I had to do another program altogether. And for each of these courses it cost many thousands of dollars, even tens of thousands of dollars. Q Couldn't you use the money you'd already paid? E Yes. I could have used it on courses, but then it would have broken up the O.T. package, and I would have had to pay two or three times that for another O.T. package because the prices had gone up so much since 1979. Q How many years were you in Scientology? E From 1976 to 1987 or actually 1988. Q About 12 years. Now, looking back on those 12 years, how would you evaluate them? E Being put through a personal hell by a bunch of toy gods who bad the right to give or refuse to give you eternity. They had the right to condemn you to eternal damnation for whatever arbitrary reasons they had, according to their technology, and their way of looking at it. They had a case of tunnel vision. They could see things their way and no other way. Q Do you now think that there was something wrong with you that you got into Scientology in the first place? E Ah ... I think what it was was that I did have certain awareness, and I knew that I wanted to expand those abilities, into the spiritual awareness type things, and spiritual ability type things, and they promised you these abilities and awarenesses, and the O.T.s (who had done O.T. levels) spoke in such assuring ways that what was promised would occur, and there was such agreement there that you never doubted, you just knew it had to be there. You had found at last what you had been seeking. So rather than saying there was something wrong with me, it was only a desire to expand myself. Q What would you say to somebody who is looking at Scientology, who is perhaps interested in receiving what some of the ads promise? E I've already said it. I have a few friends in the park who walk with me. One had read Dianetics and wanted to go clear, and they've been trying to get her on staff, and she's heard my story and she doesn't want anything to do with it. Unless you are willing to have someone exert total control over your life, then don't go in it. They promise freedom, and then they try to enslave you. And the enslavement gets worse and worse to the point where they will have a husband disconnect from a wife or parents disconnect from a child. It does riot matter to them. Q They claim they don't do that anymore. E Well, I've news for you. I've seen it. I've seen letters of disconnection. And if you want physical possessions or things of aesthetic beauty, then you'd better be sure you are going to give it to them. They praise people, write stories of people who give away their antiques, who sell, undersell, to buy the bridge as I did. I sold oriental rugs, jewelry, crystal, china, sterling silver, actually undersold because you had to get the money in by a certain time, there was so much pressure. I've donated gorgeous works of art that they stuck in all kinds of weird places, signed limited editions, just beautiful things. I donated planters worth $40-$60 each, and I found them using them as paint containers. They were dumping paint in them and painting walls with these gorgeous planters. I became friendly with one of the ethics officers later on, and I found one of the planters I had donated to the church in her house. They gave it to her. If their ethics system was to rule the world, I would be really afraid because of the control they have on you and on your relationships. They can totally ostracize anyone, and refuse to speak to you or allow you to walk into their buildings. They have the idea that they are God and have the right to suspend any other law in favor of their "senior" law. They do believe that the end justifies the means, and if they've made a mistake then (I'm quoting Ron Hubbard) they "exhume the body." That's what they did to me after several episodes. Q Do you feel free from the threat now that you've left? E Yes. I think a lot of it is in their imagination. I feel relieved. I have come to my own philosophy about the whole thing, even about various awarenesses, and what it's all about. Q How do you look forward to the rest of your life? E In peace. I intend to have a wonderful life, even though this episode was there. Hopefully it can all be forgotten. One tries not to retain rotten memories, and it was a really rotten memory. I'm moving back to the home that I should never have left. (I left it for Scientology and got nothing.) I've wasted 6 years in Manhattan and 6 in California. I'm going back to where I belong. Fortunately, I have kept my relationships with my roots, and I and my family are looking forward to me being back. I have made some friends here and hopefully I'll keep them. It took a gouge out of those earlier years which they can never give me back, but I'm going to start from here. Q Thank you. Thank you very much. E You're welcome.