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1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 1 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, afternoon session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 0002
1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 0003
1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0004
1 2 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 3 PAGE LINE 4 STACY BROOKS 12 12 DIRECT DIRECT 12 15 5 EXAMINATION The Court 21 21 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 24 4 6 EXAMINATION The Court 35 13 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 36 14 7 EXAMINATION The Court 52 21 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 61 17 8 EXAMINATION The Court 62 8 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 64 11 9 EXAMINATION The Court 65 21 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 67 18 10 EXAMINATION The Court 71 1 Recess 74 4 11 EXAMINATION The Court 79 16 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 80 17 12 EXAMINATION The Court 82 13 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 83 13 13 EXAMINATION The Court 85 16 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 89 20 14 EXAMINATION The Court 90 8 EXAMINATION The Court 100 6 15 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 103 6 Defendant's 73 Letter 118 23 16 EXAMINATION The Court 120 11 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 121 12 17 EXAMINATION The Court 121 17 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 124 9 18 EXAMINATION The Court 134 6 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 136 2 19 Recess 143 11 20 21 22 23 24 25 0005
1 THE COURT: Well, my telephone call just ended 2 so I didn't have a chance to read a thing, so -- it 3 was a long call and it was an important call. And 4 for whatever it's worth, the Sixth Circuit has got a 5 new judge to be elected by this January. So that 6 was just one of a lot of things. So any of you all 7 want to be a judge, I wouldn't advise it, but if you 8 do, there's an opportunity for you. 9 MR. FUGATE: I think from what I've seen the 10 answer would be no. 11 As I understand it you want us to open now with 12 our evidence as it relates to the motion that we 13 filed, omnibus motion for sanctions. And we will do 14 that by calling Ms. Stacy Brooks. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. FUGATE: And I think she's here -- may I be 17 excused? 18 (Witness sworn.) 19 THE COURT: Not open, but continue with the -- 20 with the hearing that we've already started in front 21 of Judge Baird, continuing here. 22 MR. LIROT: That's -- that's our question, 23 Judge. 24 I'm curious as to where we are procedurally. 25 It was my understanding that this afternoon would be 0006
1 a continuation of the hearing in front of Judge 2 Baird. 3 THE COURT: Yes. That is my understanding too. 4 I think when he said open, he -- he meant that he 5 would be continuing. In other words, what I 6 indicated to the two of you all was that I wanted 7 the plaintiff in Clearwater defendant -- since it 8 started up there as the plaintiff and it's the 9 defendant's motion here, to finish whatever it is 10 they wanted to finish. Because I had noticed you 11 kind of wanted to make an argument on the law at the 12 conclusion of their case, and I said you can't 13 really do that until they conclude their case. 14 MR. LIROT: And correct. And that's in the 15 what we'll call the breach of contract action. 16 MR. FUGATE: Then I go back to what I said 17 before. I thought -- 18 THE COURT: That is not true. I have no idea 19 what Judge Baird is going to do, whether he's going 20 to accept the procedure that I have allowed or not. 21 What I have allowed here is that so that Mr. Minton 22 and Mr. Dandar don't have to just repeat everything 23 that's happened, to basically allow their -- 24 pursuant to agreement, their testimony in that 25 hearing to be introduced as part of this hearing. 0007
1 MR. LIROT: Correct. 2 THE COURT: So we are not in that case at all. 3 I don't know what Judge Baird will do; whether he'll 4 accept any of this testimony or not. But in this 5 hearing we've agreed to accept the testimony thus 6 far, I believe -- we've had three witnesses, 7 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton and Ms. Liebreich. 8 MR. LIROT: Correct. 9 THE COURT: They have testified, and I am 10 accepting that testimony. And I think Lee and the 11 church has adopted that testimony as part of the 12 testimony in this case and they're continuing. And 13 when they're done with their testimony in this case, 14 then I'm going to hear you as to the motion filed in 15 this case. If Judge Baird says, "I don't -- I'm not 16 interested in taking any of that testimony down 17 there in my case, I want it all put on again," you 18 continue up there. Is that what you understood? 19 MR. FUGATE: Well, yes and no. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. FUGATE: And now I go back to what I 22 suggested just before we went to lunch. 23 I misunderstood that point with your Honor, and 24 if he wants to complete the testimony of Mr. Dandar 25 in that case and expand it into this case, then what 0008
1 Ms. Brooks was going to be called for is our motion 2 and our hearing as it relates to the motion that's 3 before your Honor in this case. And it's my 4 understanding that she's available Monday or Tuesday 5 if he wants to complete that. That's what I thought 6 I was saying at lunchtime. 7 THE COURT: There's no point. What I did was 8 agreed to fill up the time this morning because 9 Ms. Brooks I didn't think was here and we had time 10 to go. And so I said rather than just calling 11 Mr. Dandar for whatever cross, why don't you just 12 start with the whole thing. 13 Now we're ready to continue on your case. So 14 it's almost as if he never started, you're 15 continuing. And then when you're done, he'll make 16 his legal argument; if he doesn't prevail, the first 17 witness he's going to call is Mr. Dandar, or doesn't 18 have to be the first, but second, third, fourth, 19 whatever. 20 MR. FUGATE: All right. 21 MR. LIROT: That's exactly my understanding, 22 your Honor. 23 THE COURT: And what -- where are you and I not 24 either seeing eye to eye, which is okay, or where 25 are we miscommunicating? 0009
1 MR. FUGATE: Well, where we're miscommunicating 2 is I actually thought we were going to start our 3 case. Because it's my understanding that in the 4 breach case, that Ms. Brooks was not going to be 5 called as a witness, and I didn't intend to call her 6 and certainly am not in -- you know, calling her in 7 that case. I would be calling her and I'd be 8 calling Mr. Minton, as I told your Honor, with 9 counsel on the conference call, as witnesses in -- 10 if the court conducts an evidentiary hearing -- 11 THE COURT: Which I'm doing. 12 MR. FUGATE: -- in this matter on our motion 13 that's before your Honor in this case. 14 THE COURT: That's fine. 15 MR. FUGATE: And if that's what I'm starting to 16 call her for, I'm ready to call her. If you want to 17 finish with Mr. Dandar, I'm ready to let you do 18 that. You tell me. 19 THE COURT: I want you to put on your case. 20 And when you're done with your case, I want you to 21 say, "That's all we've got." 22 MR. FUGATE: Got you. 23 THE COURT: And when that time comes, I want to 24 listen to legal argument. And if we go past the 25 legal argument, he's going to put on his case in 0010
1 opposition to your motion. 2 Now, if you want to introduce -- which I 3 thought we'd already done -- the testimony that had 4 already occurred so all that doesn't have to be 5 repeated, that's your business. 6 MR. FUGATE: It's in. 7 THE COURT: And it's in. So this would be in 8 essence your -- I believe Ms. Liebreich was called 9 up there as a plaintiff's witness, was she not? 10 MR. WEINBERG: No. In that case, they're not 11 the plaintiffs in that case. 12 THE COURT: Well, I understand. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- 14 THE COURT: You are and the church called her. 15 MR. WEINBERG: She was called by us. 16 THE COURT: The church has called thus far as a 17 witness in front of Judge Baird, Mr. Minton 18 Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich. 19 MR. WEINBERG: That is true. 20 THE COURT: And I've allowed if you want those 21 witness's testimony from up there to be considered 22 to be admitted in this case. And so -- 23 MR. FUGATE: And that's where I still think I'm 24 confused. Ms. Brooks would not be called in that 25 case, and Mr. Minton, what I had understood and what 0011
1 I had anticipated was, as it relates to our 2 motion -- when I say our motion, the motion in the 3 case before your Honor, the wrongful death case -- 4 that if we put affidavits in front of you -- I've 5 known you for a lot of years, and I think in 6 fairness, with the type of allegations that are 7 made, that you would want to see Ms. Brooks and you 8 would want to see Mr. Minton. 9 THE COURT: Very true. 10 MR. FUGATE: And I'm calling them in that case. 11 If he's not finished with whatever he wants to do 12 with Mr. Dandar, which is what I thought he was 13 saying before lunch, then I don't have any problem 14 with him finishing that. She's going to be called 15 in the other -- in the wrongful death case. Am I 16 missing something? 17 THE COURT: We are not at odds. 18 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 19 THE COURT: Pretend Mr. Dandar never took the 20 stand. 21 MR. FUGATE: You got it. And I'll start. 22 THE COURT: Pretend it never happened. 23 MR. FUGATE: Did you swear -- 24 THE COURT: I swore her. 25 And if you did not want to call her up there, 0012
1 then whatever -- whenever this is over, if Judge 2 Baird says, "Well, gee, maybe I can consider some of 3 this," you need to say, "Not the testimony of 4 Ms. Brooks because she was not going to be called in 5 this case." Meaning his case. 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think I'm confused enough. 7 I'll just start asking questions, Judge. 8 THE COURT: I'm not confused, but -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, you know I'm always 10 confused. 11 ________________________________________ 12 STACY BROOKS, 13 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 14 and testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Would you state your name for the record, please, 18 Ms. Brooks? 19 A Stacy Brooks. 20 Q And we have had some testimony prior to your 21 taking the stand and there's been a reference to a Stacy 22 Young. Are you Stacy -- or were you Stacy Young at one 23 time? 24 A Yes, I was. 25 Q So for the court's purposes, Stacy Brooks, Stacy 0013
1 Young, is you, and the same person at different points in 2 your life. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, you have -- you have executed two affidavits 5 which have been filed in the record in this case, as I 6 understand it. And do you have those before you there? 7 A Yes. 8 Q There's first a notice of filing, a short 9 affidavit and a notice of filing a longer affidavit. Do you 10 have those there? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 THE COURT: I may only have the one. I may 13 have them both, but the one that I have, that I know 14 I have, is one that is dated the 30th of April of 15 2002 and it's 16 pages. I'm sorry. It's 17 pages. 16 MR. FUGATE: That's the one that we will be 17 talking about as Exhibit 71 to our memorandum of 18 fact and law. 19 THE COURT: Okay. If there is another 20 affidavit, I'm not sure that I have it. I'm not 21 saying I don't, because I've gotten a lot of stuff. 22 I remember this one and I remember reading this one. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I think it's 72 and not 71, just 24 for the record. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0014
1 MR. FUGATE: Well, let's make sure we're right 2 on that. 3 MR. MOXON: It looks like there may be an 4 error. At some places in the paper it's referred to 5 as 71, but the copy we have, it's listed and 6 attached as 72 -- 7 THE COURT: Let's put it this way: In my book 8 which you all provided to me -- which really isn't 9 that important. We need to know where it is in the 10 record. But in my book it's tabbed 72. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, then let's refer to it as 12 72, Judge, and I apologize. 13 THE COURT: We'll all know what it is. It's 14 Stacy Young -- is it Stacy Young now? Stacy Brooks' 15 affidavit that is dated April 30th, and it's 17 16 pages long. 17 MR. FUGATE: It's actually, Judge, filed on the 18 30th. It appears on the back to be signed on the 19 29th of April. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Is that -- are we talking about the same 23 affidavit? 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: Is that the same one that you have 0015
1 in front of you that I have, ma'am? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Now we're all on the same 4 page. 5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Ms. Brooks, the affidavit, the 17-page affidavit 8 that we now have, I think, identified for the record, which 9 is entitled "Second Affidavit of Stacy Brooks," did you in 10 fact -- is that the affidavit that you executed and your 11 attorney, Mr. McGowan, filed -- McGowan filed in this 12 record? 13 A Yes, it is. 14 Q And is it -- is it true and correct to the best of 15 your knowledge and belief? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Now, the judge has read it and I'm going to ask 18 you some questions about it. I'm not going to try to go 19 through it; I'm not going to try to repeat anything, Judge. 20 But I will, if I may, ask you, Ms. Brooks, can you 21 tell us how it is that you came to execute this affidavit; 22 how it is that you came to be testifying in this matter, if 23 you will? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that's the subject 25 of my entire affidavit, your Honor. 0016
1 THE COURT: You can go on ahead on a narrative. 2 I mean, that's a fairly open-ended question. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: So you can -- you can just go until 5 somebody objects, and we'll see where it leads. 6 Okay? 7 THE WITNESS: All right. 8 A Well, I guess I'll start a little bit more 9 recently and go back -- go backwards in time. 10 In March of this year, I found myself and Bob 11 Minton in a situation in which we were both in extreme 12 danger of being found guilty of perjury. And particularly, 13 Mr. Minton was extremely -- extremely worried, distraught, 14 frightened about going to jail, either by Judge Schaeffer or 15 by Judge Baird. Judge Baird had already threatened to put 16 him in jail in October. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q October of -- 19 A In October of 2001. 20 And -- 21 Q Let me interrupt here because I think everybody 22 understands, but for the sake of the record, Mr. Minton, 23 Mr. Bob, or Robert, Minton, was he the individual who was 24 the original president, CEO, if you will, of the Lisa 25 McPherson Trust -- 0017
1 A Yes. 2 Q -- that's referenced in your affidavit? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And were you the same Stacy Brooks or are you the 5 same Stacy Brooks that took over that position when 6 Mr. Minton removed himself? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And were you the same or are you the same Stacy 9 Brooks that had worked with Mr. Dandar in, quote/unquote, 10 the trial team in the litigation in this case, which is the 11 estate of Lisa McPherson, with Dell Liebreich as the 12 personal representative versus the Church of Scientology 13 Flag Service Organization and other defendants? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. So with that stage set, there were legal 16 proceedings, if I understand what you're saying, that were 17 ongoing, that were beginning to cause concern. And I'm not 18 putting words in your mouth. You tell this judge what 19 happened and what caused you to be where you are today. 20 A There were many legal proceedings, both in this 21 case, in the wrongful death case and in the breach of 22 contract case. There was about to be another case, which 23 was the counterclaim case. And in all of these cases, both 24 Mr. Minton and I were being ordered into deposition on a 25 fairly regular basis. I was aware for some months that 0018
1 Mr. Minton was testifying falsely. 2 THE COURT: Let me check with my bailiff. Is 3 that water fresh? 4 THE BAILIFF: Fresh, yes. 5 THE COURT: Take your time, ma'am. 6 MR. FUGATE: Too late now. 7 THE COURT: Well, I worried about it 'cause 8 I've been known to take this and realize that it 9 wasn't. 10 THE WITNESS: It tastes okay to me. 11 THE COURT: I knew the bailiff had made mine 12 fresh and I wanted to be sure yours was too. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 A I was extremely concerned about the fact that he 16 was doing this. Mr. Dandar knew he was doing this, was -- 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Knew Mr. Minton was doing what? 19 A Was testifying falsely. 20 Q And when we say Mr. Dandar, is he here in the 21 courtroom? 22 THE COURT: Oh, come on, Counsel, we don't 23 need -- this record can be real clear -- 24 Mr. Kennan Dandar, right? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 0019
1 MR. FUGATE: Apologize, your Honor. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q And I will shut up. 4 A I had had many, many very heated discussions with 5 Mr. Dandar about the danger that he was putting Mr. Minton 6 in by continuing to have him fund this case -- 7 THE COURT: Let me just stop you for one 8 minute. I'm going to assume that every time you say 9 Mr. Dandar that you're talking about Mr. Kennan 10 Dandar. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: You do know he has a brother. 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. But I didn't work with 14 Tom. I worked with Ken. 15 THE COURT: So anytime if you're referring to 16 anyone other than Kennan Dandar, his brother, you 17 let me know. Otherwise I'll assume anytime you say 18 Mr. Dandar, it's Ken Dandar. 19 THE WITNESS: That's right. 20 THE COURT: Fair enough? Okay. 21 A My relationship with Mr. Dandar had degenerated 22 really badly because of this situation, and I was urging and 23 begging Mr. Minton to stop his involvement in this case. 24 Mr. Minton had a lot of faith in Mr. Dandar. He felt that 25 he should continue to fund it. 0020
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Fund what? 3 A The wrongful death case. 4 And he felt that he had a commitment to the estate 5 of Lisa McPherson because he felt that the estate of Lisa 6 McPherson had made a commitment to him with regard to the 7 proceeds of the case. And he wanted to hold up to his end 8 of that deal. 9 And I told him repeatedly that Mr. Dandar didn't 10 really care how much money he took from him and he really 11 didn't care about what was going to happen to Bob Minton as 12 a result of what he was doing. And so finally -- finally 13 what happened was there were two orders to show cause for 14 criminal contempt brought against Bob Minton. One was in 15 Judge Schaeffer's courtroom and one was in Judge Baird's 16 courtroom. One was scheduled for Friday, April 4th, and one 17 was scheduled for Tuesday, April 9th -- Friday, April 5th? 18 In any case, right together -- 19 Q April of this year -- 20 A Right together. And, you know, Mr. Minton was in 21 terrible shape about this. I was, you know, continuing to 22 beg him to not fund. He had just given Mr. Dandar another 23 check in February -- or in early March, right before these 24 orders to show cause hearings. 25 Q Of what year, so we can keep fresh? 0021
1 A Right now. Of 2002. 2 Q Of 2002. 3 A You know, I told him that he was, you know, 4 getting himself into terrible trouble. And at that point he 5 said, "You know, I'm in so deep in this now it doesn't 6 really matter." 7 And I got in touch with his attorney, Bruce Howie, 8 in -- I think probably as early as January -- 9 Q Of this year? 10 A And -- of this year, of 2002. And told Bruce that 11 I wanted to have him approach Scientology for a settlement 12 with Bob Minton, and asked him for his opinion about that, 13 or whatever. We had several conversations about it. 14 And after talking to Bruce, then I approached Bob 15 Minton and I told him that I wanted him to authorize me to 16 have Bruce Howie to approach Wally Pope -- 17 Q Okay. 18 A -- for settlement. 19 And, you know, at first Mr. Minton said, you 20 know -- 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q I'm sorry, and I -- I don't mean to stop you 24 either, but when I hear settlement, I don't know what that 25 means. Settlement of what? What's going on? 0022
1 A Well -- well, there were -- you know, Mr. Minton 2 was getting drawn into a lot of different legal -- or 3 litigation with Scientology. It was -- in the wrongful 4 death case, in the breach of contract case, he was about to 5 be named as a party in the counterclaim. And you know, it 6 seemed to me that he was being -- you know, he was going 7 down a road that was going to destroy him. 8 Q So when you say settlement with Scientology, 9 settle against -- this is again my question -- settle what? 10 A Well -- 11 Q Settle out as a defendant? Settle -- I mean, 12 settle what? 13 A Well, it was going to start out with Bruce Howie 14 asking Wally Pope for the possibility of settlement in 15 the -- in the counterclaim. But my -- what I had in my mind 16 was that I knew that Scientology would never just be willing 17 to settle one little case with Bob Minton, because I knew 18 that their point of view was that he was responsible for 19 pretty much all the litigation problems that they were 20 having in the United States. 21 And so I knew that, you know, even -- even though 22 Bruce might -- Mr. Howie might call Wally Pope and ask for a 23 settlement of that one particular case -- 24 Q That being I think you mentioned counterclaim -- 25 that being the breach of contract case? 0023
1 A Breach of contract -- yeah, I think maybe it was 2 the breach of contract. I can't remember -- 3 Q Okay. 4 A But, you know, one particular case that Mr. Howie 5 was working on. I think it was the breach of contract case. 6 And -- and I knew that when Mr. Howie approached 7 Wally Pope to settle that case, that what he would get back 8 from Wally Pope was going to be, "We're not interested in 9 settling one case, we want a global settlement with 10 Mr. Minton." Well, global settlement with Mr. Minton 11 didn't -- I mean, my understanding was, not that it would 12 just be all the litigation, but it would be that he got out 13 of the anti-Scientology litigation business altogether. 14 That he stop funding any litigation; that he stopped his 15 anti-Scientology litigation activities. 16 So -- 17 Q So that's what you perceived -- 18 A That was what I meant. 19 Q Okay. 20 A So -- so Bruce Howie did call Wally Pope. Wally 21 Pope did come back with the answer that I expected he would; 22 that Scientology was not willing to settle one case, they 23 wanted a global settlement. And so I encouraged and urged 24 Mr. Minton to go forward with talks for a global settlement, 25 because it was my feeling that it was the only possibility 0024
1 he had to save himself from a nightmare of sanctions, 2 criminal charges, perjury charges, legal nightmares for the 3 rest of his life. 4 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q You mentioned perjury charges or you mentioned the 7 fact that there had been testimony, in your judgment, that 8 had been given that was not correct or not true; that you 9 wanted to address. Can you explain that to the court? And 10 I guess in two counts. If it applies for Mr. Minton, and if 11 you would identify what you understood applied to 12 Mr. Minton; and if it applies to yourself, if you would 13 identify what would apply to you. 14 THE COURT: Or both, if it applies to both. 15 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 16 THE COURT: That's fine. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Or both. 19 A Well, both of us had lied in deposition about 20 there not being a -- an agreement with the estate to -- for 21 the proceeds of the judgment to go to the LMT. Bob had lied 22 about that and so had I. Bob had lied about it more 23 extensively and more often than I had. This had been at 24 Mr. Dandar's urging. That was one. 25 Another was that Bob Minton had lied about how 0025
1 much money he had given the estate or loaned the estate, I 2 should say, because he had left out some of the money that 3 he had loaned to the estate at Mr. Dandar's urging. 4 Q Can you explain that to the court? 5 THE COURT: And first of all, I guess she needs 6 to -- she needs to say whether or not she was 7 present for this discussion or whether this is 8 something she just learned from Mr. Minton. We need 9 to at least know that. 10 MR. FUGATE: Let me -- let me back up a minute 11 then and try to ask some questions. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Was there -- can you tell us how the LMT, the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust, came into being? 15 A Some of it happened before I was involved in it, 16 so it'll just be my understanding. 17 Q If you'd give us your understanding. 18 A Mr. Minton began to give the estate loans for the 19 litigation starting in, I believe, the fall of '97. And 20 from what he's told me, in early '98, I believe, he 21 suggested to Mr. Dandar and/or the estate that in order to 22 sort of defuse, I guess, the accusations that Scientology 23 was making about his -- the way they were characterizing his 24 relationship with the estate, they were characterizing his 25 relationship as a -- basically a business deal; that he had 0026
1 invested in the lawsuit and that he was therefore expecting 2 to make a lot of money from the lawsuit. And he -- he 3 suggested that -- 4 Q Let me stop you there. Was that fact at the time 5 that was happening, to your knowledge, true? 6 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Go ahead. 10 A So he suggested that they make an agreement that 11 the bulk of the proceeds of the estate would go to an 12 organization that would be established in Lisa McPherson's 13 memory. And so that agreement had been made. And then -- 14 well, excuse me, I -- that wasn't the case at that moment. 15 At that moment when they first made the agreement, 16 Bob Minton was part of another organization called FACTNet. 17 And so the agreement originally was that the money would go 18 to that organization. But shortly thereafter, I began 19 working with Mr. Minton in the late winter/early spring of 20 1998, and he asked me to go on the board of FACTNet with 21 him, and then we were both on the board for some months 22 until -- I'm sorry -- I'm just trying to make sure my dates 23 are right here. 24 THE COURT: We understand this has been over a 25 long period of time and so -- 0027
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 2 THE COURT: -- just do the best you can. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 A Until, I believe, March of '99, if I'm not 5 mistaken, we left -- we settled -- Mr. Minton and I were 6 involved in settling the FACTNet lawsuit that Scientology 7 had brought against FACTNet, and we successfully settled 8 that lawsuit. And then we resigned from the board of 9 FactNet and Mr. Minton began to make plans to establish a 10 new organization that would be specifically in Lisa 11 McPherson's memory. 12 And at that time it was my understanding that the 13 agreement about the bulk of the proceeds shifted from going 14 to FACTNet to going to the new organization. Because the 15 whole point of the agreement was that it was going to be in 16 return for what Bob Minton was doing to enable the case to 17 go forward. 18 So -- 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q All right. Now, let's back up a second because I 21 think it would be helpful, from reading your affidavit, 22 to -- to give the court a little background on your 23 involvement in anti-Scientology or as a Scientology critic, 24 litigation. Could you just tell us when that began and how 25 that began? 0028
1 A Well, my husband and I left Scientology in 1989 -- 2 Q And your husband would be at that time? 3 A That was Vaughn Young. 4 Q Okay. 5 A We left together. And we didn't have anything to 6 do with Scientology or anti-Scientology for several years. 7 We were just trying to get started with a new life 8 basically. 9 In 1993, we had occasion to meet a woman who was 10 part of an organization that was in litigation with 11 Scientology at that time, and she asked us if we would be 12 willing to speak to her attorney, who was fighting -- who 13 was litigating against Scientology. 14 And so -- that was sort of a big step for us at 15 the time, to actually cross a treshold and start working 16 against Scientology. I'd been in for 15 years so -- and my 17 husband had been in for 20 years, so you know, it was a 18 fairly major shift for us to do this. 19 And we finally decided, you know, to meet with 20 this attorney and see what it was that he wanted us to do or 21 what he wanted to know from us or whatever. 22 You're going to have to fill this up. 23 Q That water's okay? 24 A Yeah. It's okay. 25 So a meeting was set up with us, and -- and that 0029
1 attorney and another attorney also came to that first 2 meeting. 3 Q And who were they, for the sake of continuity, and 4 where we are? 5 A Their names were Dan Leipold and Graham Berry. 6 They were both -- this was in Los Angeles. They were both 7 litigating cases, or I should say, defending their clients 8 in litigation against Scientology. In other words, 9 Scientology had brought the lawsuits against their clients. 10 Q And did you and/or your -- your then-husband, 11 Vaughn Young, begin to participate in that litigation? 12 A Yes. We had a lengthy interview with these two 13 attorneys in which they asked us about our experiences; you 14 know, what our positions had been in Scientology. Both of 15 us had, at various times in our careers in Scientology, held 16 high management positions. And so both of these attorneys 17 said that our experience would be really valuable and that 18 they would like to hire us as expert witnesses -- 19 Q And did that happen? 20 A -- in their cases. 21 Q Did that happen? Were you hired as expert 22 witnesses? 23 A So yes, it did. 24 Q And did that expert witness experience extend over 25 a period of time? 0030
1 MR. FUGATE: And I'll get it wrapped up, Judge, 2 to where we are here. 3 A Yeah. We started doing this in '93 and basically 4 continued to do this work through -- well, my husband, I 5 think, continued to do it through '98. I continued to do it 6 in one form or another until -- well, I'm hesitating 7 'cause -- 8 THE COURT: Before or after he -- 9 THE WITNESS: After. 10 THE COURT: Okay. So -- 11 THE WITNESS: I mean, I was going to say until 12 about a month ago, but in fact I -- I haven't been 13 really doing the litigation work for some months. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Well, let me ask you this question. You say in 16 the affidavit that -- that you -- your role as an expert and 17 as a consultant was your primary source of income. Is that 18 accurate? 19 A Yeah. My husband and I had had a pretty difficult 20 time getting going after we got out of Scientology, and we 21 were, you know, having a pretty difficult time financially 22 when we met with these two attorneys. And so financially it 23 was a really good job for us at the time. 24 Q And did that then -- that relationship as an 25 expert witness/consultant, did that then become essentially 0031
1 your sole source of income up till the present time? 2 A Well, it was certainly our primary source of 3 income and was my primary source of income until I began to 4 be paid directly by Mr. Minton. 5 Q Now, in that earlier litigation, you indicated -- 6 MR. FUGATE: And I'm not going to go through, 7 Judge, the -- the affidavit -- 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q But you indicate that you were a consultant on how 10 to drive settlements up or how to cause Scientology to want 11 to settle litigation. Can you explain that to us? 12 A Well, as I said, these two attorneys that I worked 13 with initially were both defending their clients against 14 Scientology, and one of the cases involved a client whose 15 credibility was fairly doubtful. And so the attorney was 16 hoping to be able to force Scientology to dismiss their own 17 lawsuit before it ever had to get to trial. And so what he 18 specifically asked for me to help him with was a strategy 19 which would bring that about. 20 Q And can you explain what that strategy was and how 21 you used it? 22 A I -- 23 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge, work product. 24 THE COURT: Whose work product? 25 MR. LIROT: Anything involving work product 0032
1 that would affect this case. She signed a 2 confidentiality agreement. 3 THE COURT: Well, overruled. This is some 4 other case, I take it, way back in -- 5 MR. FUGATE: It is. 6 THE COURT: Something involving Mr. Leipold 7 and -- 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's actually in the 9 affidavit, it's set out in there, and I'm just 10 asking her, to eliminate it. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q The question is, did you develop a strategy, I 15 think, is where I was headed. 16 A Yes. I did develop a strategy, and it was based 17 on something that I had heard about having happened in a 18 legal case when I was still in Scientology. Which was, 19 there was a lawsuit that had been brought by Scientology, 20 and the strategy of the defense attorneys in that case had 21 been to name L. Ron Hubbard, who was the founder of 22 Scientology, who was alive at that time, get him named as 23 managing agent and get him -- and I mean, I may not be 24 exactly accurate on what actually happened, but this was my 25 understanding -- to get him named as managing agent and 0033
1 therefore get him ordered into deposition. Because -- and 2 when Mr. Hubbard was ordered into deposition, Scientology 3 dropped their lawsuit because they didn't want him to go 4 into deposition. 5 Q That was your understanding? 6 A That was my understanding. I'm not sure that 7 really happened, but that's what I -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A -- that's what I brought with me. 10 Q Okay. And did you transfer that into the 11 litigation with Mr. Leipold and Mr. Berry, I think you said? 12 A Well, specifically with Mr. Berry at the time. 13 Q Okay. 14 A Because I -- I told him about that, and I said, 15 "Mr. Hubbard is dead, no longer the head of Scientology, but 16 David Miscavige is now the head of Scientology, and he's in 17 a very similar position in terms of wanting to shield 18 himself from litigation. So if you want them to dismiss 19 their case against your client, target David Miscavige." 20 Q And so did you then develop a strategy for these 21 lawyers as to how to do that, to try to cause that to occur? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q And did you become involved at some point in a 24 Larry Wollersheim case we've heard a little about today in 25 this court? 0034
1 A Yes, I did to the degree that Mr. Leipold was one 2 of the attorneys on that case. And I had worked with 3 Mr. Leipold in, I think, maybe two earlier cases. And -- 4 Q In the same capacity as an expert/consultant -- 5 A That was always -- 6 Q And the -- 7 A That was always the capacity that I had. 8 Q Were you providing affidavits in those cases? 9 A I was writing -- well, they're declarations. 10 Q In California. 11 A I think in California they're declarations. But I 12 was writing lengthy declarations, very lengthy declarations, 13 in which basically -- you know, the -- we would have these 14 meetings and the attorney would lay out what it was that he 15 was wanting to plead. And then he would ask me if I felt 16 that that was plausible or if I thought that that was, you 17 know, a possible scenario in some way. 18 And -- and so, you know, we would kick it around a 19 little bit and I would say, you know, I don't think it would 20 be plausible that way, but I think it could possibly be the 21 case if you said it this way. And -- and then he would ask 22 me to write a declaration that would support that. 23 And so you know, I'm a writer; I've been a writer 24 when I was in Scientology. And you know, you can -- I've 25 done a lot of public relations writing. And you know, you 0035
1 can communicate something in whichever direction would 2 further whatever your end result is that you want it to be. 3 Q Well, are you saying that if there was a -- a need 4 to establish something in a pleading, you would set about to 5 author a declaration that would fit that scenario, as you 6 called it, so that the pleading could be filed? 7 A That was my job. 8 Q Okay. And did that job extend over into this case 9 that Judge Schaeffer sits on today; the wrongful death case? 10 A Yes. 11 THE COURT: Don't we want to know whether or 12 not these declarations were true or not? 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY THE COURT: 15 Q Were these true declarations or were these 16 declarations that fit the -- that fit the need, whether or 17 not they were true? 18 A They were declarations that fit the need. And I 19 used speculation and I speculated about things that I didn't 20 really have personal knowledge about. So whether or not 21 they were true, I'm not sure. I -- I didn't have personal 22 knowledge about many of the things that I wrote about, 23 but -- 24 Q And did the dec- -- I don't know what a 25 declaration is in California, but does a declaration say 0036
1 something to the effect that I swear of my own personal 2 knowledge and belief this is true or anything like that? I 3 mean, I don't know what they require out there. 4 A I think it must. 5 Q So -- 6 A I mean, it's a sworn statement. 7 Q It's the same thing as what we have; we just call 8 it an affidavit, they call it a declaration. 9 A Yeah. I think they're kind of interchangeable. 10 Q So when you say you had personal knowledge, if it 11 was something you were surmising or supposing, then that 12 wasn't -- would not have been a true affidavit. 13 A That's correct. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q And did that practice carry over into this case, 17 was my question? 18 A Yes, it did. 19 Q And did you prepare affidavits and did you assist 20 in the preparation of affidavits that carried that same 21 pattern of fabrication, I think you called it, into this 22 lawsuit? In other words, the speculation, the assumption, 23 as a fact affidavit? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And did that practice -- did you make that 0037
1 distinction or that fact that they were presumptions and 2 assumptions and innuendo known to anyone involved in the 3 litigation? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And who would that have been? 6 A Mr. Dandar, Dr. Garko. 7 Q Now -- 8 THE COURT: I'm not sure, maybe it's part of 9 one of the attachments that I have, I don't 10 remember -- I remember yesterday I said I've never 11 seen the Jesse Prince affidavit everybody kept 12 referring to? Have I seen the Stacy Brooks 13 affidavit that has been previously supplied in this 14 case? Is it at issue in front of me at any time? 15 MR. FUGATE: Have you seen it? I can't 16 remember when I saw it. But I'd be glad to get a 17 copy -- 18 THE COURT: Okay. Can I get a copy so I know 19 what affidavit you provided in this case? You can 20 go on ahead. I just didn't know if I had seen it. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm not sure that I 22 ever did provide an affidavit in this case. I may 23 not be remembering, but I -- you asked me if I 24 provided one or if I assisted. 25 0038
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Well, let's -- 3 A And I did assist in another affidavit. 4 Q What we'll do, so we can save time and keep going, 5 is we'll look, because I believe there was one -- 6 A Okay. 7 Q -- but I could be in error, but I'm going to get 8 to the assisting others. 9 A Okay. 10 Q And if we find one, we'll hand it up to the judge 11 so she can -- to review. 12 Let me jump back a second because I think it's 13 sort of -- to put things in perspective. In the Wollersheim 14 case, do you know that Mr. Minton had any financial -- had 15 or has any financial interest in the Wollersheim case that 16 you made reference to being involved in? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And what interest does he have, to your 19 knowledge? 20 A Well, I know that he has the only secured lien of 21 $750,000, I believe, is the amount against that judgment. 22 Q And do you know -- 23 A That UCC? 24 Q A UCC filing? 25 A Yeah. 0039
1 Q Okay. 2 A That's -- I don't know what that means, but that's 3 what he has. 4 Q That makes two of us. 5 A Okay. 6 THE COURT: Actually I do, so that's -- 7 remember I used to teach -- you know, I used to 8 teach commercial transactions. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, does that mean a secured 10 loan? 11 THE COURT: It's probably a security interest 12 that's been filed to protect the UCC -- filing to 13 protect his interest, giving notice to the world -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 THE COURT: -- that he has -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 17 THE COURT: -- an interest in this and he's 18 entitled to collect. 19 THE WITNESS: That's -- that's what I -- that's 20 my understanding. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q And do you know if Mr. Minton has made any other 24 investments in the Wollersheim litigation, with the 25 attorneys or anything of that nature? 0040
1 A Well, he has supported Mr. Leipold's law firm for 2 some time now. I mean, I've received a number of calls 3 myself from Mr. Leipold in which he would have lengthy 4 conversations with me, knowing that I would then talk to 5 Mr. Minton on his behalf, in which he has told me that if it 6 weren't for Mr. Minton, he could not keep -- continue to 7 keep the doors open of his law firm. And that he 8 desperately needed for Mr. Minton to give him some further 9 support. 10 I think that Mr. Minton has loaned him about 11 $450,000 at this point to enable him to continue to 12 practice. 13 Q And do you know -- do you know if there are loan 14 agreements or some sort of writing that evidences that? 15 A I believe there is. 16 Q Do you know -- while we're on that subject, I 17 think the judge would like me to move right to that -- do 18 you know if there are any writings in this case that 19 evidence loan agreements or the moneys that you have 20 described that you're aware of that Mr. Minton has put into 21 the estate of Lisa McPherson litigation? 22 A I believe so. 23 Q What would those be if you -- if you can describe 24 them to us? 25 A I -- I believe that when Mr. Minton first began 0041
1 loaning the estate money, he put in writing that these were, 2 you know, loans to the estate; that he was very happy to be 3 able to help or something like that. And I -- and I believe 4 also Mr. Dandar then wrote him a letter back thanking him 5 for the -- for his help. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to do this through 7 Mr. Minton rather than take the court's time -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. FUGATE: Just want to establish it. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Do you need water? 12 A Sorry? 13 Q Do you have water there? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q Now, was there a letter from Mr. Dandar that you 16 ever saw that indicated that "thanks for the money, but the 17 bar says you can have no control over the litigation"? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Do you remember that? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And do you remember if there were more than one of 22 those letters or only that one? 23 A I don't remember more than one. 24 Q Okay. Now, in your observation, your 25 understanding, your belief, did Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton 0042
1 discuss, plan, strategize the litigation that Mr. Minton was 2 putting the money into? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. Could you describe -- can you describe that 5 for the court, please? 6 A Well -- 7 MR. LIROT: I think this is hearsay unless -- 8 unless it's something that she said. 9 THE COURT: Well, I think that Mr. Minton is 10 going to be present, if she was present when any of 11 these things occurred. But I think where we need to 12 go here is not just -- I don't remember, what did 13 the bar say? The bar said that he couldn't control 14 the case. 15 MR. FUGATE: Couldn't -- yeah. Basically 16 you -- you have to get the client's consent. And 17 that it -- 18 THE COURT: You can't discuss confidential 19 information. 20 MR. FUGATE: Confidential knowledge without -- 21 THE COURT: But surely there's nothing the bar 22 would suggest that somebody who had contributed 23 money couldn't chat, how's the case going or 24 something like this. So we need to define this, if 25 we're talking about issues of controlling the case, 0043
1 issues of confidentiality, or those kinds of issues. 2 MR. FUGATE: Well, what would be the best thing 3 is the letter, so if we can -- 4 THE COURT: I've got it. It's in evidence. 5 But my recollection is that's what it said. 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't have it, but I'll 7 look at it at the break and come back to that, 8 Judge, so I can address that. 9 THE COURT: Well, we can wait and get it. 10 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 11 MR. LIROT: Exhibit 9, Judge. 12 THE COURT: This is a letter from Mr. Dandar to 13 Mr. Minton, so this would have been the letter she 14 saw. 15 MR. FUGATE: Right. 16 THE COURT: Pursuant to Rule 4-1.8F of the 17 rules regulating the Florida Bar, "The client must 18 consent to your donation. Please be advised the 19 client does consent, was very appreciative of your 20 donation. New paragraph. 21 "Pursuant to the rules, your donation does not 22 entitle you to control the litigation nor the 23 disclosure of the client's confidential 24 information." And so that's the part that talks 25 about the Florida Bar rule. 0044
1 Now, I will grant you, she may not know what 2 control is. I'm not -- I may not know. But I think 3 if, you know, we're talking about something in 4 passing, how's the case coming, we need to talk 5 about things that were discussed that were more than 6 that. 7 MR. FUGATE: Exactly where I'm going. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Did what the court just read to you refresh your 10 recollection of what the letter said in general, that you 11 can't be involved in the control of the lawsuit? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, rather than have me put words in your mouth, 14 can you tell us what you observed, what you witnessed, what 15 you participated in, with regard to Mr. Minton and 16 Mr. Dandar's involvement in the litigation, however you 17 describe it. 18 A Well, I had a pretty central role in this whole 19 issue, because once -- once I began working for Mr. Minton, 20 I kind of -- he -- he kind of gave me the role of overseeing 21 this wrongful death case and how Mr. Dandar was going about 22 litigating it to make sure that, you know, from my 23 perspective as a Scientology expert, that he was litigating 24 it properly in order to emphasize the Scientology aspects of 25 the case as much as possible. 0045
1 Q And what, if you know, of your own personal 2 knowledge, was Mr. Minton's purpose in controlling the 3 litigation or having it litigated, if you will, as you just 4 described? 5 A Well, Mr. Minton was very -- 6 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 7 THE COURT: Well, I think what we need to know 8 here is whether she's familiar with any discussions 9 that Mr. Minton had with Mr. Dandar where he -- 10 wherein he indicated this. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Can you answer that question? 13 A Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. And the same thing, you 15 know, being -- if Mr. Minton sends her over to 16 Mr. Dandar's office to be his eyes -- I believe in 17 the affidavit -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Eyes and ears -- 19 THE COURT: Eyes and ears, we need to know that 20 somehow or another Mr. Dandar knew this or ought to 21 have known it or something. Because if she's there 22 kind of, quote, spying for -- for Mr. Minton, why if 23 Mr. Dandar's not stupid enough to pick that up, 24 well, that wouldn't be very relevant then, because 25 that would be something between her and Mr. Minton. 0046
1 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can answer that. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Was your presence in Mr. Dandar's office as you've 4 described -- or in the affidavit as the eyes and ears for 5 Mr. Minton -- was that known, to your observation and 6 knowledge and the best of your belief, to Mr. Dandar? 7 A Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko. 8 Q Okay. And there was no question about that -- 9 A We talked it. 10 Q -- in your mind. 11 Were there conversations that you were present at 12 between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about the direction, 13 scope, et cetera, of this wrongful death litigation? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Can you tell us about those? 16 A Well, there were a number of discussions, but one 17 that I described in my affidavit is one that happened in 18 Philadelphia in, I believe, August of 1999. I had been -- 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, August -- 20 THE WITNESS: August, 1999, I think. 21 A Anyway, I had been working with Mr. Dandar and 22 Dr. Garko over that summer. And I had told Mr. Minton that 23 I was very concerned because I didn't feel that Mr. Dandar 24 was really getting it about how he could interject 25 Scientology into the case. I'd had a number of 0047
1 conversations with Dr. GarKo in which Dr. Garko said he 2 didn't want to inject Scientology into the case, and 3 Dr. Garko was Mr. Dandar's main consultant. So I had told 4 Mr. Minton that I felt like he really needed to set this 5 straight with Mr. Dandar; that he was funding a case about 6 Scientology causing Lisa McPherson's death, not just a 7 simple wrongful death case. 8 So Mr. Dandar wanted -- wanted Mr. Minton to meet 9 him in Philadelphia -- I think he had a deposition there or 10 something. I'm not sure why he was going to be there. But 11 he wanted to meet Mr. Minton in Philadelphia because he 12 wanted to ask him for more money in August of '99. And he 13 really preferred to meet with Mr. Minton alone, without me 14 there, 'cause -- 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q He being -- 17 A Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Because he and I just didn't have a very good 20 relationship. 21 Q And he would be Mr. Dandar. 22 A Yeah. Mr. Dandar. 23 But I did go with Mr. Minton to this meeting, at 24 Mr. Minton's request, and at my request, that he let me. 25 And we did meet with Mr. Dandar, and Mr. Minton told him -- 0048
1 I mean, this is in my presence, so -- this was in my 2 presence. 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- that -- what I just said; that, you know, he 5 was funding a case about Scientology's involvement in Lisa 6 McPherson's death, not just a simple wrongful death case. I 7 think he mentioned that he knew that Dr. Garko was not in 8 favor of this. You know, because I had said so. And he 9 said that he really wanted to see Mr. Dandar taking more of 10 an active interest in, you know, understanding Scientology's 11 practices and beliefs and you know, listening to me and 12 listening to Jesse Prince about, you know, how to litigate 13 this case. 14 Q And when you say that -- and I'm going to stop you 15 here and we'll go back to where you were -- but do you mean 16 how to interject, into the litigation, attacks on the 17 beliefs or practices of Scientology? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q And you've -- have you read the fifth amended 20 complaint -- I don't mean today, but have you read it 21 recently? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And the language that's in there about the 24 Scientology technology, about the introspection rundown, 25 about -- that the murder, if you will, or letting Lisa 0049
1 McPherson die to avoid a public relations flap -- are those 2 the sorts of things that you're talking about that needed to 3 be emphasized in the litigation? 4 A Yes. 5 THE COURT: Honestly, this is the very thing 6 that really ought to come from her as opposed to -- 7 when -- I had no idea what she meant when she said 8 bring Scientology into it. 9 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: So this is your witness. Why don't 11 ask you her what she means. 12 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Well, actually, I was going 13 by the affidavit, but I apologize. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Well -- 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q What did you -- what did you mean? 17 A When I -- you mean when I said that it needed to 18 be brought -- 19 THE COURT: I don't mind the leading when we're 20 going through all the preliminary stuff. When we 21 get to things I would presume would be critical, 22 rather than saying, "Is this what you mean --" 23 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Your Honor -- 24 THE COURT: -- for all the parties, when we get 25 there, let's let the witness testify. Stick to the 0050
1 critical areas. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Let me back up. Let's go back to Mr. Prince a 4 moment. Did you know, at that time, Jesse Prince? 5 A At what time? I mean, well -- 6 Q The Philadelphia meeting, you just mentioned it 7 for the first time. 8 A Yes. 9 Q And how did you know Jesse Prince? 10 A Well, I knew Jesse Prince when we were both in 11 Scientology. I had known him since 1976, actually. And 12 after I left Scientology, I hadn't seen him until the summer 13 of 1998 when he contacted Mr. Minton and mentioned my name 14 in his e-mail. And then I called him. And that -- at that 15 point Jesse Prince started working with us. 16 Q Okay. And when you say at that point Jesse Prince 17 started working with us, what do you mean? 18 A Well, Mr. Minton started paying him; he sent him 19 out to Los Angeles to help Mr. Leipold with a case -- with a 20 Scientology litigation case that he was working on at that 21 time. And from that point forward, that was what Mr. Prince 22 did. 23 Q And to your knowledge -- and I'm directing it to 24 your knowledge -- was his sole source of income in the 25 period of time we're discussing up to, I guess, the present 0051
1 to be a Scientology critic or to do what you just described? 2 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 3 MR. FUGATE: I asked if she knew -- 4 THE COURT: I got it. Overruled. 5 A Yes. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q And -- 8 A Since July of '98. 9 Q And do you know that for any particular reason? 10 A Well, I know that because for a lot of the time I 11 was either directing that he be paid or paying him myself. 12 Q And do you recall -- 13 A For Mr. Minton. 14 Q -- as you sit here what he was paid on a month's 15 basis from approximately '98 to whenever that payment 16 ceased? 17 A I would say -- well, starting in probably early 18 '99, I think -- I can't remember exactly when he started 19 being paid by Mr. Dandar as a consultant, but at least 20 starting at that point he was paid $5,000 a month up until 21 just last month. And before that, it wasn't as regular of a 22 payment, like a salary or something, but it was -- I would 23 say, you know, he was -- Mr. Minton was making sure he had 24 enough money every month to live. So 4- to $5,000 a month 25 probably. 0052
1 Q Now, I interrupted you on the meeting that you 2 were about to discuss in Philadelphia. Can you tell us what 3 happened at that meeting? 4 A Well, I think I started to say that Mr. Minton 5 told Mr. Dandar that he wasn't happy about the direction the 6 litigation was taking; he wasn't happy that -- specifically 7 he wasn't happy because both Jesse Prince and I had told 8 Mr. Minton that we didn't feel that Mr. Dandar really 9 understood Scientology; that he was paying lip service to us 10 about it, but that he wasn't really taking the time to grasp 11 it himself. 12 And for example, you know, I would write questions 13 or Jesse would write questions for him of a deposition of a 14 Scientologist, and Mr. Dandar wouldn't really listen to us 15 about how to ask the questions or what questions to ask or 16 whatever. And -- and we were very frustrated 'cause we felt 17 that Mr. Dandar was not competently addressing the 18 Scientology issues of it. 19 So Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that, and so did I, 20 at this meeting. 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q That's what -- that's the question I have. What 24 are Scientology issues? 25 A Well -- 0053
1 Q What exactly were you concerned about? 2 A Well, for example, Lisa McPherson died while on 3 step zero of a -- of a process that is called the iso- -- 4 the introspection rundown. It's a Scientology practice. 5 And it's a -- it's a -- 6 Q Believe it or not, I know what it is. I do. 7 'Cause I -- 8 A Okay. 9 Q -- I've learned a lot about the introspection 10 rundown and step zero, and zero-zero. 11 A Okay. Well, then -- you know, this is a -- this 12 is a procedure that is the way a person who basically has 13 gone into a full-blown psychotic episode -- that's -- this 14 is what -- this is how they're treated for that in 15 Scientology. 16 And you know, I have been on an isolation watch, 17 as they call it. Mr. Prince had been on an isolation watch, 18 or more than one. I don't know. And so we -- we had some, 19 you know, experience ourselves in what Lisa McPherson had -- 20 what -- what had been happening for her. 21 Q What you believe -- 22 A Yeah. 23 Q -- would have happened to her. 24 A Would have happened, yes. 25 Q In an introspection rundown -- 0054
1 A Right. 2 Q -- step zero. And you had conveyed this to 3 Mr. Dandar? 4 A Right. 5 Q And you didn't think that he had adequately -- 6 A Well -- 7 Q -- expressed that. 8 A Well, yeah. And specifically -- 9 Q Here I am asking -- I'm sorry. I need you to tell 10 me. 11 A Well, at the time, as I recall, there were some 12 depositions of some of the people who had been involved in 13 her care, some Scientologists. And with other attorneys 14 that I have worked with, one of the things that I would do, 15 is I would actually compose questions for deposition and 16 actually interject some Scientology procedure into the 17 wording of the questions. 18 Like -- like there's a procedure in Scientology 19 which is called a security check or a confessional, and 20 that's a procedure where a person is asked a lot of 21 questions about various criminal things or unethical things 22 or, you know, in some other way things that they don't feel 23 good about having done. 24 And the whole point of the procedure for -- 25 according to the Scientology belief, is that this will help 0055
1 the person to sort of purge themself of all of these bad 2 things that they've done. And at the end they'll feel a lot 3 better 'cause now they've confessed all this stuff. 4 And so there's certain questions that during the 5 course of a security check the person will from time to time 6 ask the person. Like, "During this security check, have you 7 told me an untruth? During this security check, have you 8 told me a half truth?" You know, this kind of thing. To 9 just sort of make sure that the person's really, you know, 10 coming clean as you go along. 11 Well, I had worked with other attorneys and I had 12 suggested to them that whenever they're deposing a 13 Scientologist, they should pepper the deposition with these 14 kind of questions, because it would -- it would be very 15 startling for a Scientologist to have an attorney from the 16 other side asking him things that obviously indicated that 17 he understood something about Scientology. And it would 18 perhaps, you know, cause the person to be more likely to 19 tell him things that they might not otherwise be willing to 20 tell him. 21 Anyway, that was my idea. 22 Q Okay. 23 A So that's an example of what I meant. 24 Q So when -- but I still am -- I'm still not 25 clear -- and I think this is somewhat critical -- is when 0056
1 you -- when Mr. Minton was there and you were there and you 2 said we want you to inject Scientology issues into the case, 3 you said that, you know, you had told Mr. Dandar about step 4 zero -- I'm not maybe saying step zero -- but zero, and what 5 would have happened there. And I guess you didn't feel he 6 had adequately covered that? 7 A Right. We didn't feel that he was really 8 understanding how -- you know, just how terrible all this 9 Scientology stuff really was. That was my feeling at the 10 time. That he -- you know, here he is and he's supposed to 11 be litigating this case about this woman who died in 12 Scientology's hands and he's not even learning enough about 13 Scientology to really understand about how to go about, you 14 know, putting the Scientology part in his pleadings or -- or 15 in the depositions or -- or in his responses to the 16 Scientology stuff that was, you know, going back and forth 17 and -- 18 Q So at least at the time in Philadelphia, on 19 whatever date it was in October of '99 -- 20 MR. FUGATE: August, I think it said. 21 THE COURT: August, I'm sorry, of '99. 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q -- you were not suggesting anything that he put in 24 anything that was untrue. You were suggesting that he deal 25 with Scientology issues that you had told them were 0057
1 accurate, I gather. Is that it? 2 A Well, you know I felt -- you know, I had been -- 3 it had been my job since 1993 -- this is now 1999 -- and it 4 had been my job to litigate against Scientology. And so, 5 you know, my whole -- my whole perspective was to view all 6 of the things that were involved in Scientology as harmful, 7 and that, you know, Lisa McPherson's involvement in 8 Scientology had been harmful, and that -- from the beginning 9 of getting into Scientology I -- you know, I was going 10 through a lot of papers having to do with her history in 11 Scientology and whatever. 12 And I was doing what I had always been doing, 13 which was going through and finding, you know, all the 14 negative aspects of her experience in Scientology, you know, 15 that -- so that Mr. Dandar could use that as part of the 16 background for his attack on Scientology as part of the 17 case. 18 Q So that I'm clear -- and I'm not sure that I am -- 19 the step zero, that being the isolation, for lack of a 20 better word, part of the introspection rundown -- 21 A Right. 22 Q -- that you were very familiar with, you had 23 participated in one -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- you therefore thought you had some insider 0058
1 information about what Lisa McPherson probably went through 2 based on your own experience. 3 A Exactly. 4 Q What you told Mr. Dandar or your frustration with 5 Mr. Dandar or what you and Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar about 6 the fact that he wasn't exploring this adequately, was the 7 information you had given him about step zero on the 8 introspection rundown that you wanted him to include true 9 from your perspective? 10 A Yes. From my -- 11 Q That's what you believed had -- had happened to 12 her, and he wasn't -- he wasn't exploring it. 13 A That's right. 14 Q Okay. 15 A That's right. 16 Q So that was at that meeting. 17 A Right. 18 Q Was there anything else about Scientology issues 19 that you all talked about at that meeting? When Mr. Minton 20 was there and you were there? 21 A You know, your Honor, I think we spoke about it in 22 fairly general terms. I was -- as I said, I was concerned 23 about the fact that his main trial consultant was directly 24 at odds with what Mr. Minton wanted and what I wanted. And 25 I was feeling that Mr. Dandar was being counseled away from 0059
1 the direction that Mr. Minton wanted Mr. Dandar to be going 2 in. And so we were speaking in more general terms about 3 that situation that we saw; that -- that Mr. Minton was 4 funding the estate in order to bring a case against 5 Scientology's practices that caused Lisa McPherson's death. 6 He wasn't funding a wrongful death case in which somebody 7 just died because of negligence or something. 8 Q Some workers just didn't do a good job. 9 A Right. He wasn't -- I mean, you know, that wasn't 10 what he was doing. He was engaged in a very specific 11 anti-Scientology campaign, and that's -- you know, 12 everything that he was funding was to further that. 13 Q At -- what the practices of Scientology were; 14 what -- all of that. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And once again, all of that against the 17 Scientology -- were those all things that you had told 18 Mr. Dandar were probable in light of the fact that you were 19 there? 20 A Well, yes, they were -- they were probable in 21 light of the fact that I had been in Scientology. I hadn't 22 ever known Lisa and I had left before -- I mean, I'd never 23 known her. I'd left before anything ever happened to her. 24 But -- but as I said before, it was my job to basically 25 fabricate some areas based on my experience. 0060
1 Q Well, I -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor -- 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q That's my problem. How do you fabricate a 5 scenario based on your experience? Was your experience one 6 thing and you were fabricating some -- fabricating means 7 that this is your experience, A, and you know that that's 8 what would have happened, and you are fabricating B. 9 A All right. 10 Q Or are you saying that your experience was A and 11 you were -- or won't use the word fabricate, but you were 12 expressing A -- in other words, was the truth A and you were 13 coming up with B, or were you suggesting the truth is A and 14 you need to exploit it? 15 A I think I'd have to say it was a little bit of 16 both. 17 You know, of course, at the time I felt that -- 18 that everything I was saying was quite true. I think I'd 19 have to say that because of -- because of the responsibility 20 I felt I had to the attorneys that I was working for, I 21 think I would have to say that I took A and used A to 22 extrapolate -- extrapolate into B. In other words, I took 23 what had been my experience and then kind of hypothesized, 24 based on that, into situations that were maybe not quite 25 exactly the same as what I experienced or, you know, maybe I 0061
1 could interject my experience into it, but -- but then I 2 also went a little bit further than that too. 3 THE COURT: Could I just have one more 4 question? I'm sorry to interrupt your flow here. 5 MR. FUGATE: Go right ahead, Judge. 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q When you're saying it's something that the untruth 8 of it is, are you suggesting that the untruthfulness was a 9 little bit like those declarations where you're saying you 10 have personal knowledge of something or you know something 11 is true, have reason to believe something's true, that you 12 didn't? 13 A Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: Can I ask a question? 16 THE COURT: Sure. I'm sorry. Yes, you can. 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Were you mixing fact and fiction? Is that what 20 you're saying? 21 A That would be one way to put it. I think I'd try 22 to be a little kinder to myself and say I was mixing facts 23 and hypothesis. 24 Q All right. But the purpose of the hypothesis 25 was -- was it to attack religious beliefs and practices? 0062
1 A Well, yes, in furtherance of the goals of whatever 2 litigation I was working on. 3 Q In other words, you -- you weren't trying to 4 say -- ask these questions 'cause it's going to eliminate a 5 great practice; you were trying to take a practice and make 6 it somehow bad? Is that what you're saying? 7 A Yes. 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY THE COURT: 10 Q But was it a true practice; whether it was good or 11 bad, whoever might be the beholder, was it a practice that 12 you knew to be true? 13 A Yes. But it was a practice that when I was in 14 Scientology I knew to be good, but then when I got out of 15 Scientology, I knew it to be bad. So -- 16 Q But -- 17 A That's what I mean by the perspective of it. 18 Q I guess what would be important for me to 19 understand is that you obviously were in the Church of 20 Scientology, you knew a lot about it -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- and whatever you thought when you were in it 23 was good and when you were out of it was bad. Were you, 24 when you were telling others who didn't have a clue, like 25 me -- 0063
1 A Mm-hmm. 2 Q -- and like Mr. Dandar, I take it at some point in 3 time, were you relating truthful information as far as what 4 had happened in Scientology or were you saying to them, 5 "This is what happens in Scientology, but that actually 6 doesn't sound so bad, so I'm going to tell you about this 7 and I can testify to it, but it really isn't true --" 8 I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is were you 9 passing on what you learned that you had decided at one time 10 was good and now you've decided it was bad? 11 A That's how I felt about it at the time. 12 Q So you didn't feel like you were lying to all 13 these people, did you? 14 A I didn't feel like I was. 15 Q You felt like you were passing on the expert 16 testimony that -- the consulting ability that you had having 17 been at one time an insider -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- and that you were giving them the information 20 as an insider that they needed to know to pursue whatever 21 they were pursuing. 22 A Yes. And -- but taking it a little bit further 23 than that 'cause they were asking me for a little bit more 24 than that -- 25 Q Okay. 0064
1 A -- they were asking me for help in putting a spin 2 on it that would further the -- the particular goals that 3 they had for the litigation. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And that might be important 5 to follow up, and I'm going to let you follow up on 6 that because I've been going far too long. Like the 7 spin on this case that she was asked. 8 MR. FUGATE: That's where I would -- 9 THE COURT: Well, let's have it. Then we'll 10 take a break. 11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q All right. Using the word spin, if we can 14 complete the Philadelphia meeting, then I'm going to come 15 back to what you were doing. But was the spin what 16 Mr. Minton was looking for and what he was paying for, to 17 your observation and knowledge? 18 A Well, I would say yes, but I have to explain that 19 a little bit. 20 Mr. Minton was never in Scientology. 21 Q Mm-hmm. 22 A So Mr. Minton's understanding of Scientology was 23 not as good as he thought it was. 24 Q Okay. 25 A He thought he had a very good understanding of it. 0065
1 But he didn't have as good an understanding of it as he 2 felt. 3 Mr. Minton's education about Scientology came from 4 the Internet. And he had learned what he knew about 5 Scientology from, I guess you'd have to say, the most vocal 6 critics of Scientology. And the most disaffected 7 Scientologists, I guess. 8 And so he -- he had a -- he didn't -- he didn't -- 9 he didn't look at it as a spin. You know, he looked at it 10 as the truth, you know; that Scientology was a bad thing. 11 It was an evil thing and it had to be gotten rid of and that 12 was his job. I mean, that was his, you know, crusade, I 13 guess. 14 Q And was that the subject matter of the meeting 15 that you're talking about; was that sort of the attitude of 16 what was being -- 17 A Yeah. 18 Q -- conveyed in the August of 1999 Philadelphia 19 meeting? 20 A Yes. 21 EXAMINATION 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q I think you're going to have to be more specific. 24 I want to know -- I mean, I know one specific now. What's 25 specific? Because that's what we need to get down here to. 0066
1 A Are you asking me what's specific? 2 Q Yeah. In mean, in this meeting, we know that 3 there was some discussion about the isolation and zero -- 4 A Well -- 5 Q -- whatever. I don't even recall the terminology. 6 A You know, I'm not sure that we specifically talked 7 about step zero. 8 Q Okay. I'm sorry. 9 A You know, like I said, we were talking about it in 10 pretty general terms. 11 Q Okay. Then tell us what those were. In other 12 words, I need to know, really, what you all told Mr. Dandar 13 at that meeting. 14 A Okay. 15 Q To the best of your recollection, and I do 16 understand that it was some time ago. 17 A Yeah. 18 Mr. Minton started out saying, "Look, I realize 19 that I'm not supposed to be controlling this litigation, but 20 I got to tell you, that if you don't start emphasizing 21 Scientology more than you've been doing and if you don't 22 start focusing on the -- on the destructive practices that 23 led to Lisa McPherson's death in this litigation, I really 24 don't understand why I'm funding it. So I understand that, 25 you know, I'm not supposed to control it. But I'm telling 0067
1 you that it's not going in a direction that I'm going to 2 want to still fund." 3 So that was sort of how it started. And then -- 4 and then I talked about, you know -- and I mean, it was an 5 uncomfortable meeting because I was -- you know, I told him 6 that I didn't feel like he was really -- you know, I told 7 him that I didn't feel like he was really concentrating on 8 the Scientology practices in the case, and that the whole 9 case was about the Scientology practices. You know, it 10 wasn't just a plain wrongful death case; it was a woman who 11 was -- who was killed by Scientology. 12 Q And you believed that to be the case? 13 A I did. 14 Q And you passed that information on to Mr. Dandar 15 and said that's what needed to be explored here based on 16 your experience as a Scientologist? 17 A Right. 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q When you're saying Mr. Minton was dealing with the 21 most vocal critics of Scientology and he didn't quite 22 understand Scientology, do we take that to mean that he was 23 even more critical of Scientology? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And was it his purpose, as you understood it, 0068
1 regardless of what your position was, and Mr. Minton's 2 position was, to attack the religion, to attack the 3 religious beliefs -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q -- and practices? 6 And is that what he was talking to Mr. Dandar 7 about? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And was there -- were there any conversations -- 10 and tell us if there were or weren't, what they were -- 11 about how he wanted to have that done, how he wanted the 12 practices attacked? 13 A Well, he wanted -- he -- specifically he wanted 14 Mr. Dandar to start doing what -- what Mr. Prince and I were 15 advising him to do. And like I said, you know, it was sort 16 of -- it was sort of, generally speaking, for him to stop 17 worrying about, you know, experts, about vitreous fluid and 18 all these other things that he was doing and start putting 19 his attention on -- on educating the court about the 20 destructive practices that had led to Lisa McPherson's 21 death. 22 Q And what did Mr. Dandar say? 23 A He said -- you know, he said, "Okay, I see your 24 point." He said, "Okay, I see your point." And then Bob 25 gave him a check for $250,000. 0069
1 Q And after he got the check for $250,000 -- do you 2 know, by the way, whether it was made out to Ken Dandar as a 3 loan or if it was made out to Lisa McPherson litigation? 4 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 5 THE COURT: He asked if she knew. 6 A I don't know. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q And the check would speak for itself? 9 A I -- 10 Q Whatever it says. 11 THE COURT: If you're done with that 12 conversation, this would be a good time to take a 13 break. 14 MR. FUGATE: Let's take a break, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I want you to finish with what went 16 on in October. And I have -- 17 18 MR. LIROT: August. 19 THE COURT: -- one question to ask -- 20 MR. LIROT: August. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I keep saying October 22 and you keep correcting me. It's August. 23 MR. FUGATE: It just seems like it. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 25 0070
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q There was a check that was given to Mr. Dandar by 3 Mr. Minton at the meeting? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And you just didn't see the check, is that 6 where we -- 7 A Well, I mean, I saw him write it, but I -- 8 Q Didn't pay any attention to what it said. 9 A I didn't really. 10 Q And after that check was given to Mr. Dandar, did 11 the -- were there other iterations or other complaint 12 renditions filed in shortly thereafter? 13 A I believe shortly thereafter -- I can't remember 14 which amended complaint it was, but there was an amended 15 complaint filed pretty -- pretty soon after that. 16 Q And who participated in the drafting of that 17 complaint to your knowledge? 18 A Well, I did, Jesse Prince did -- I mean, that was 19 the complaint that was based on Jesse Prince's affidavit. 20 MR. FUGATE: This would be a good time to 21 break, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I have a couple questions 23 about that. 24 25 0071
1 EXAMINATION 2 BY THE COURT: 3 Q When you say you participated in the drafting of 4 the complaint, this was at -- I guess you were a consultant 5 at that time of the firm of Mr. Dandar? 6 A Well, I wasn't being paid by Mr. Dandar anymore. 7 Q Were you being considered his expert or his 8 consultant, either one? 9 A I'm not sure what he was considering me to be. I 10 was basically there to make sure that Mr. Minton's -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- instructions were being followed. 13 Q Mr. -- Mr. Prince, I take it, was their -- 14 A Mr. Prince was -- at that time -- 15 Q -- consultant or an expert -- 16 A -- was being -- 17 Q -- or something. 18 A -- paid by Mr. Dandar, yes. 19 Q Okay. And the destructive practices that led to 20 the death of Lisa McPherson -- in other words, you said 21 Mr. Minton said, "I want the destructive practices that led 22 to the death of Lisa McPherson included" -- did he believe 23 and did you believe those, whatever they are, to be the 24 truth as far as what had happened, based on your knowledge 25 and his, "I don't like Scientology." 0072
1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. And -- and so in the participation in the 3 drafting, whether it was you and/or Mr. Prince, or you, 4 Mr. Prince, Mr. Dandar, Dr. Garko, and the complaint was 5 done, did you believe it contained those practices that you 6 felt led to the death of Lisa McPherson? 7 A Well, your Honor, I didn't know -- 8 Q I understand that. 9 A -- what led to the death of Lisa McPherson. But 10 it contained a very plausible scenario. 11 Q That based on your experience you thought was 12 plausible -- 13 A It was possible. 14 Q -- and Mr. Dandar learned this, I take it, at 15 least to some extent, from you, Jesse Prince, all the people 16 he had consulted with about Scientology practices. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is there anything you told him to include in his 19 complaint that you knew to be false? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: Okay. That's all I have. Let's 22 take a break. 23 And by the way, you're on the stand and you 24 need to understand that while -- I didn't do this 25 with Mr. Dandar because he's the lawyer in the 0073
1 litigation -- you really can't consult with anybody 2 or confer with anybody even about your testimony 3 while you're a witness. 4 THE WITNESS: Not even -- I can't even talk to 5 my own attorney? 6 THE COURT: I don't know the answer to that. I 7 know a defendant can. And I mean a defendant in a 8 criminal case. I don't think anyone else can. 9 MR. LIROT: I think you're correct. 10 THE COURT: So the answer is no. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: You can't. I think I'm right on 13 that. You check it. A criminal defendant, they 14 finally said, if it's too long a break and you don't 15 let a criminal defendant talk, it's error. Other 16 than that, nobody gets to talk to their lawyer. So 17 you're not a criminal defendant, so you do not get 18 to. 19 THE WITNESS: All right. Your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. But that doesn't mean 21 you have to sit there. You're free to go. You're 22 free to go have water; you're free to use the rest 23 room, take a smoke, whatever you want to do. 24 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you. 25 THE BAILIFF: What time, your Honor? 0074
1 THE COURT: Oh, what time is it? It's 20 2 minutes till 3. 3:00. 3 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 4 (A recess was taken.) 5 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Fugate. 6 MR. FUGATE: Ready to proceed? 7 THE COURT: I sure am. 8 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 9 Honor? I'm going to hand her up, Counsel, the 10 affidavit of Jesse Prince that she just made 11 reference to in the filing of the fifth amended 12 complaint. 13 MR. LIROT: What's the date of the affidavit, 14 Mr. Fugate? 15 MR. FUGATE: It's sworn and subscribed the 20th 16 day of August, 1999. 17 THE COURT: Is that the one that you all 18 provided me yesterday? 19 MR. LIROT: No. That one -- 20 MR. FUGATE: Oh, they provided. No. 21 THE COURT: Somebody provided me. 22 MR. FUGATE: I promise you I didn't provide you 23 the one yesterday. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 0075
1 THE COURT: Remember yesterday I said I have 2 not seen the affidavit -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I did. 4 THE COURT: -- of Jesse Prince? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I did. 6 THE COURT: Is that it? 7 MR. FUGATE: Listen, I'm sorry. I thought it 8 was the one that they had just -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm pretty sure, your Honor, 10 it's the August 20th one I gave you yesterday. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. FUGATE: Sorry, Judge. 13 THE COURT: That's all right. 14 Let me make sure I have the same one. I've got 15 it -- I say it's first affidavit of Jesse Prince 16 'cause I don't know if it's true, but it's the first 17 one I know about. 18 MR. FUGATE: The one that I -- may I approach, 19 your Honor? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 MR. FUGATE: I'm talking about the one at -- 22 sworn and subscribed the 20th day of August, Donna 23 West, notary -- 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. LIROT: May I approach and make sure we're 0076
1 looking at the same document? 2 THE COURT: Sure. 3 MR. FUGATE: 18 pages, stops at 45 -- 4 THE COURT: 18 pages dated the 20th day of 5 August of '99, signed by Jesse Prince, notarized by 6 Donna West. 7 MR. LIROT: That looks to be the document that 8 I have, Judge. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. FUGATE: We're all on the same page? 11 THE COURT: We're all on the same page. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Is this the affidavit that you made reference to 14 which was filed to support the fifth amended complaint 15 engaging a more direct attack on Scientology? 16 MR. LIROT: Objection. Foundation. I don't 17 know if she ever looked at the affidavit at that 18 point in time. 19 THE COURT: Yeah. If she knows. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Do you recognize the affidavit? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you have anything to do with it at or about 24 the time it was prepared? 25 A Yes. 0077
1 Q Okay. And what did you have to do with the 2 preparation of it? 3 A Well, Mr. Prince and I had a number of 4 discussions. 5 Q I didn't hear you, I'm sorry. 6 A I'm sorry. Maybe this is off. 7 THE COURT: I think it is. Can we turn the 8 system on? Let's see if we can get the system on. 9 It'll help. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q If we can't, just speak up. 12 A Okay. I'm sorry. What was the question? 13 THE COURT: It's obviously on now. 14 MR. FUGATE: It's on. 15 A What was the question again? 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Did you take part and assist in the preparation of 18 this affidavit? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, if you flip to page 17, I'm going to ask you 21 to read paragraph 43 to yourself. 22 THE COURT: Tell me again, which one? 23 MR. FUGATE: Page 17 of the Prince affidavit. 24 It's the paragraph enumerated 43. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0078
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Have you had a chance to read it? 3 A Yes. 4 THE COURT: I haven't quite, so let me just -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Oh, I'm sorry, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Give me just another couple 7 seconds. 8 Okay. I've finished it. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q What it says, "It's apparent to me that these 11 individuals, Mithoff, Rathbun, Miscavige, had no option 12 other than permit her to die in isolation rather than take 13 her to a hospital for emergency medical treatment and risk 14 embarrassing questions from attending physicians, etc." Was 15 that true? 16 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. It's not 17 her affidavit. 18 THE COURT: Well, she said she assisted in it 19 and I think, therefore, that she can say whether or 20 not they discussed this and that type of thing. So 21 I'm going to overrule the objection. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Was that true? 24 A No. 25 Q When it says that, "Scientology provides an option 0079
1 called end cycle, which is permitting and ordering a person 2 to die," was that true? 3 A No. 4 Q Is there such a thing as an end cycle, as it's 5 portrayed here? 6 A No. 7 I know where it started. 8 MR. LIROT: Excuse me. Objection, based on 9 competency. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. If she was in the 11 church, she says she was -- 12 MR. LIROT: We don't know to what level. We 13 don't know if she was on the same level as 14 Mr. Prince, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Would you know if there was -- 19 What level were you at? 20 A Well, I was a Class 4, XDn auditor, OT5. 21 Q Doesn't mean a thing to me. Would you -- have you 22 ever heard of anything called end cycle? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you know what it was? 25 A Yes, your Honor. Actually, that term first began 0080
1 being used in this context in the first case that I worked 2 on in 1993. Because the man -- 3 Remember when I was saying about Graham Berry, the 4 attorney? 5 Q Right. 6 A Well, the person that was his client was a man 7 named Steve Fishman, who was being sued by Scientology for 8 libel because he had been quoted in a TIME magazine article. 9 You remember that 1991 -- okay, well -- 10 Q I don't, I'm sorry. 11 A There was a big article about Scientology in TIME 12 magazine in 1991. And one of the things in the article was 13 Steve Fishman saying that he had been ordered by Scientology 14 to commit a murder and then to commit suicide. And this is 15 where this started. And he used this term, he was ordered 16 to do an end of cycle. 17 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Who used the term? 20 A Steve Fishman. 21 And so one of the first things that Mr. Berry 22 asked me was, what I knew about this ordering people to die 23 by end of cycle. And I told him that there was no such 24 thing in Scientology. 25 THE COURT: Okay. So whatever level you were 0081
1 at -- and somebody will have to explain whatever she 2 said, because I wouldn't know what level that was -- 3 But whatever -- is that a high level? Were you a 4 high level -- 5 THE WITNESS: It was a high level. 6 THE COURT: You know enough at your level to 7 know there was no such thing when you were in 8 Scientology called end of cycle or end cycle. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Your objection's overruled. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q But did you craft a declaration that described end 13 cycle as something like this we see in Mr. Prince's 14 affidavit? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And did you assist in the crafting of this portion 17 of this affidavit describing the end cycle? 18 A Well, I assisted in getting Mr. Prince into the 19 proper frame of mind in which he could then write this. 20 Q And write this, paragraph 43 that I've just read 21 the two sections of, is not true, is it? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Would you take a moment and read paragraph 44? 24 Are the allegations as set out in there, to your 25 knowledge, true? 0082
1 A No. 2 Q And would those allegations as set out in there, 3 to your knowledge, then be false? 4 A To the best of my knowledge. 5 Q And did you have any information at all that 6 Misters Mithoff, Rathbun or Miscavige had ordered the death 7 of Lisa McPherson? 8 A No. 9 Q Or that they had wanted to prevent what's 10 described here as a public relations flap and said, "Let her 11 die"? 12 A No. But that idea came from me. 13 EXAMINATION 14 BY THE COURT: 15 Q I'm sorry? 16 A I said no, but that idea came from me. 17 Q What idea? 18 A The idea that they would have let her die to avoid 19 a PR flap. 20 Q Did you -- did you come up with that idea thinking 21 it was true, or did you come up with that idea knowing it 22 was false and thinking it just would hurt them? 23 A I -- 24 Q Or something in between? 25 A I would say it was something in between. I 0083
1 certainly knew it would hurt them. 2 Q I think we can agree on that. 3 A Yeah. The -- but your Honor, I know for sure -- 4 Q Take your time. 5 A Sorry. 6 Q It's all right. 7 A I know for sure that these people didn't sit by -- 8 Q Who are these people? 9 A Scientology. 10 Q Okay. 11 A They didn't sit by and let her die. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q When you said a moment ago -- and I'm going to 16 come back to this -- that you -- words to the effect as -- 17 if I recall -- don't even trust my memory, I guess -- that 18 there was anti-Scientology critics. Was there a 19 fraternity-like atmosphere among those of you that were 20 critics of Scientology? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q And when you embarked on the career, at least that 0084
1 we've had described here from '93 to a couple of months ago, 2 your income was derived from being an anti-Scientologist and 3 a critic of Scientology, is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And are you saying to the court that you believed 6 in that period of time that what you were doing was right? 7 Is that what you've been saying to Judge Schaeffer? 8 A Yes. 9 Q But having said that, are these allegations that 10 are set out in Mr. Prince's affidavit true or false that I 11 just read to you -- had you read? 12 A They're false. But within that fraternity of 13 critics, I have come to feel now that -- and I have come to 14 feel that Mr. Dandar feels this way, and that -- well, the 15 people who are within that fraternity called critics of 16 Scientology feel so strongly a hatred for Scientology that 17 they feel that the end justifies the means, no matter what 18 it takes, to destroy Scientology. And I think that -- I 19 think that Mr. Dandar knew that to be the case with 20 Mr. Minton, and I think that he played on that and that 21 he -- 22 THE COURT: Who -- we've got two "he's" there. 23 We talking about -- 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- 25 THE COURT: -- Mr. Minton -- 0085
1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar knew that Mr. Minton 2 felt that strongly against Scientology. And I think 3 that Mr. Dandar felt that he could play on that 4 animosity that Mr. Minton had, and that he did play 5 on that animosity that Mr. Minton had to encourage 6 Mr. Minton to lie under oath for the good of his 7 case. I have felt that I needed to lie under oath 8 for the good of this case. I have seen others -- 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Have you lied under oath, as you say, for the good 11 of -- 12 A Yes, I have. 13 Q -- Mr. Dandar's case? 14 A Yes, I have. And I've seen others in this 15 proceeding lying under oath for the good of this case. 16 EXAMINATION 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Who? 19 A Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Dandar. 20 Q So you -- you believe that -- I believe you 21 believe that all of these people feel, as you indicated, the 22 critics of Scientology feel -- I think you said the means 23 ju- -- I think is -- 24 A The end -- the end justifies the means. 25 Q I think is the means justifies the end or -- isn't 0086
1 it? 2 A The end justifies the means. 3 Q Well, whatever -- we know -- 4 A You know what I mean. 5 Q I do. 6 A You would do anything to achieve the goal because 7 the goal is so righteous. 8 Q I think that would be the means justify the end, 9 which would be to abolish Scientology -- 10 A Okay. 11 Q -- or to get rid of Scientology -- 12 A Yeah. 13 Q -- or to -- 14 A Right. 15 Q -- make them look -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q And this is because of the -- what did you call 18 it, the hatred? 19 A The hatred. 20 Q And you were there at one time? 21 A Yes, I was. 22 Q Or maybe you still are? 23 Mr. Minton was there -- 24 A Yes, he was, but he's not anymore. 25 Q Okay. 0087
1 A And neither am I. 2 Q And you -- 3 A And it's not because I've been extorted by 4 Scientology. 5 Q Whoa, whoa. We're going to let someone else talk 6 about that. 7 But for now you believe and why you think that 8 this occurred is you think Mr. Dandar also hates Scientology 9 and so does Ms. Liebreich? 10 A I would say that Mr. Dandar thinks that he can 11 make a whole lot of money by using people who hate 12 Scientology. 13 Q So you think that this is a monetary thing for him 14 rather than -- 15 A Yes, I do, your Honor. 16 Q -- rather than a hatred of Scientology; rather 17 than sort of a -- what do we call that, sort of a strange 18 moralistic view. 19 A That's what I believe. 20 Q You think to him it's money. 21 A Yes. Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 23 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 24 Honor. 25 THE COURT: You may. 0088
1 I've got to go back to one thing 'cause this is 2 kind of important. 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q You indicated that in 43 and 44, that in the 5 affidavit, that those items that were read to you by 6 Mr. Fugate were not true. And that you -- you had indicated 7 before that you and Mr. Prince had worked on them. I think 8 you even said you got him into the mood -- 9 A Yes, ma'am. 10 Q -- or whatever that meant, I don't know. Maybe 11 some of it's -- 12 A Into the state of mind. 13 Q What does that mean? 14 A In other words, I had many conversations with 15 Mr. Prince in which we discussed this scenario, in which she 16 was held against her will and these leaders of Scientology 17 were orchestrating this. And we talked about how 18 Mr. Miscavige would have been getting reports every day 19 about her -- about what was happening to her because it was 20 going to be such a PR flap. And I mean, you know I -- I 21 helped Jesse -- 22 Q Believe this? 23 A Believe this. 24 Q Okay. Did you ever -- this is what is important 25 to me. Did you ever tell Mr. Dandar that this information 0089
1 was false? 2 A No. I told Mr. Dandar the obvious, which was that 3 I wasn't there and neither was Jesse, so we couldn't 4 possibly know. 5 Q But you didn't say what you said in court, which 6 is this is false. 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. Thank you. 9 A I said this could have happened. 10 Q This -- so in other words, you told him that based 11 on your experience -- and obviously you weren't there, but 12 based on your experience -- 13 A This could have -- 14 Q -- this could have happened. 15 A -- happened. 16 Q And did Jesse tell him the same thing? 17 A Yes. And I think when Jesse testifies he'll tell 18 you that it did happen. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Well, let's talk about what you mean by it did 23 happen. 24 THE COURT: No. She said Jesse will say it did 25 happen. 0090
1 MR. FUGATE: No -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Did Jesse Prince accurately describe something 4 called an end cycle in this affidavit or is that a false 5 statement as you said? 6 A It's my belief that it's a false statement, but 7 I'd like to talk about that for a minute -- 8 EXAMINATION 9 BY THE COURT: 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- if I could. 12 There is -- there is a series of procedures in 13 Scientology which is called a series of assists. An assist 14 is a procedure that's used to help a person when they're 15 sick. Various procedures to try to deal with what the 16 Scientologists believe is the cause of illness. And in one 17 of those issues about assists, I believe that I did see at 18 one point in my Scientology career an instruction when a 19 person was dying to help them be at peace about dying. And 20 I don't remember exactly 'cause this was a long time ago. 21 Q Sort of what Hospice might do? 22 A Kind of a Hospice thing. 23 And I believe that term, end of cycle, was used in 24 the description of that. Because -- because in 25 Scientology -- you know, a Scientologist believes that you 0091
1 live many lifetimes, and when you die, they call it an end 2 of cycle. Because when you finish -- you know, when you 3 finish breakfast, it's an end of cycle. It's an end -- an 4 ending of something. And I do believe that in -- there was 5 an assist instruction in which that term was used to 6 describe that process of helping a person die at peace. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And -- 9 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 MR. FUGATE: I'm showing her, Counsel, the 13 fifth amended complaint, which is filestamped -- 14 well, I can't read it without my glasses -- January 15 of 2000, I think. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q I'm going to ask you to look at that -- 18 THE COURT: I take it this is the one we all 19 agree that -- that I've got in my book. 20 MR. LIROT: Yeah. Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 Q I'm going to ask you to take a look at that and 23 flip to, if you would -- whatever -- 24 MR. LIROT: This is -- if I could ask the court 25 to verify I have the correct document, this is on 0092
1 page 18 of 18, with a certification dated 2 December 21st, 1999? 3 THE COURT: That's the one I have. 4 Ma'am, is that the one you have? 5 THE WITNESS: Let me see. Says 21 December. 6 MR. LIROT: Very good. 7 THE COURT: Now, where did -- 8 A You wanted me to read what? 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q If you would go to page 12, where it says count I, 11 statutory wrongful death. 12 A Okay. 13 Q And read paragraph 34 to yourself. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I'm sorry. Did you have an opportunity to read 16 it? 17 A Paragraph 34? 18 Q Yeah. 19 Now, is that description of end cycle in there a 20 description of an end of the cycle as you just described it, 21 an assist; or is it the concept that you imported and that 22 you had talked to Mr. Prince about putting into the wrongful 23 death complaint? 24 A It's the latter. It's the concept that I had 25 talked to Mr. Prince about putting in. 0093
1 Q And were you aware of your involvement with 2 Mr. Dandar of any information -- any fact that would support 3 that allegation in this lawsuit? 4 A No. 5 Q And was Mr. Prince aware of any, as far as you 6 knew, when he drafted the end cycle portion of the affidavit 7 that supported this allegation and allowed the complaint to 8 be filed? 9 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. LIROT: She doesn't know what Mr. Prince 12 knew. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Well, the end cycle as described here is what you 16 said was your concept that you talked to and told Jesse 17 Prince about, is that correct? 18 A Yes. This was the use of end cycle that was 19 started by Steve Fishman. 20 Q And it's not a true concept, is it? 21 A No. 22 Q And it's not portrayed to be a true concept in the 23 affidavit or the complaint, is it? 24 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. She 25 doesn't know what was true. 0094
1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 MR. LIROT: Just her knowledge of it. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Are you aware of any factual information, in all 5 your involvement in the case, that, "Lisa McPherson was held 6 against her will in isolation, and when she did not respond 7 to Scientology technical handling, Flag, on orders from 8 David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff and Marty Rathbun, sat mute and 9 watched her die after she no longer had the strength to 10 fight for her freedom. Her death was no accident. It was 11 the chosen option to minimize a public relations flap"? 12 MR. LIROT: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Where are you reading? 14 MR. FUGATE: I'm reading from 44, your Honor, 15 of Mr. -- 16 THE COURT: 44? 17 MR. FUGATE: 44 of Mr. Prince's affidavit. 18 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I was reading -- 19 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: -- the complaint. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to go back to 22 that. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Asked and answered, was that your objection? 25 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 0095
1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 MR. FUGATE: The -- I'm reading now from 3 paragraph 34, Judge, of the complaint as it exists. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q "The decision made by Scientology through the Sea 6 Org by David Miscavige and carried out by Karduzinski, 7 Johnson and Houghton, was only due to their desire to 8 protect Scientology from bad public relations." 9 Were there any facts known to you to support that 10 allegation? 11 A No. 12 Q And when it says that, "The defendants, in total 13 conscious disregard for the rights of Lisa McPherson, 14 willfully, intentionally, wantonly --" 15 THE COURT: Asked and answered, Counsel. You 16 already went through that. She said there were no 17 facts to support that. 18 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 19 THE COURT: If that's what your question was. 20 MR. FUGATE: That's what my question -- 21 THE COURT: That's what I thought. 22 MR. LIROT: Thanks, Judge. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q And from your conversations with Mr. Dandar, did 25 you understand that he understood there were no facts to 0096
1 support that? 2 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. And -- 4 Well, I mean, she's already told us that he 5 didn't know the -- they didn't tell him the 6 affidavit was false, so how in the world could he 7 know that the complaint was false? 8 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me ask that. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Did you tell him that the end cycle comments in 11 there were false? 12 A Yes. Jesse and -- I did object to using that term 13 because it wasn't something that was going to be -- 14 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge, unresponsive. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 A It wasn't something that was going to be credible. 17 I mean, it was something that was going to be easy for 18 Scientology to -- to discredit. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And did he put it in anyway? 21 A Well -- 22 Q He being Mr. Dandar? 23 THE COURT: I mean, if you know. I don't know 24 if you were there -- 25 THE WITNESS: I don't -- 0097
1 THE COURT: -- discussed it between -- 2 THE WITNESS: I wasn't there for him to write 3 this, but -- 4 THE COURT: Well, then she can't testify about 5 that. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q You were there for the drafting of -- and input 8 into the Jesse Prince affidavit, is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And you -- did you say you assisted in the 11 drafting of the fifth amended complaint that we were just 12 reading from? 13 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 14 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to overrule it 15 because I think maybe she did say that she was. I 16 don't really understand it, if she wasn't there, 17 the -- 18 A I didn't understand -- I didn't get your question. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q I don't want to confuse you either. 21 I had asked you, did you take part in the drafting 22 of the fifth amended complaint? 23 A No. And with regard to the drafting of 24 Mr. Prince's affidavit -- 25 Q Mm-hmm. 0098
1 A -- I wasn't -- I don't believe that I was at the 2 office for its drafting. I may be wrong about that. But -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I can't 4 hear from conversation that counsel -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. All right, folks, same 6 thing back there. I mean, both sides have got to be 7 quiet so that she can hear, Mr. Fugate can hear and 8 so that I can hear. 9 A I don't recall whether or not I was actually there 10 for the drafting of the affidavit. I believe I was, but I 11 don't recall. What I do know, I was -- what I do know, my 12 involvement was in the drafting of his affidavit was many 13 conversations, as I said, in which I coached him on the 14 correct state of mind. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q To be able to put in what's in this affidavit as 17 the end cycle and the orders and the stuff that we just went 18 through and read. 19 A Well, to be able to basically create the scenario 20 in which the Scientology leadership would have directly 21 ordered her death. 22 With regard to -- that's why I'm saying, with 23 regard to end cycle, I would not have suggested that that be 24 used because I didn't think it was credible and I suggested 25 it not be used. But it's very inflammatory, as you -- as is 0099
1 the language in this whole paragraph. It's a fairly severe 2 assault on Scientology. 3 Q But the fact of the matter is it was used. 4 A Right. 5 Q And is the fact of the matter, would you say, that 6 was the intent of Mr. Minton in funding the litigation? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q As far as you know? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 11 THE COURT: If she knows. 12 If you know that. 13 A I do know, and yes, it was. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q All right. And were you present at any meetings 16 between Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton where including this 17 language specifically charging intentional death on orders 18 of ecclesiastical leaders of the church was discussed and 19 agreed to? 20 A In phone calls. 21 Q Can you tell us about those? 22 A Well, I was present at Mr. Minton's end of the 23 phone call. 24 Q Okay. 25 A So I don't know what Mr. Dandar said on his end of 0100
1 the phone call. 2 But I was present for at least one discussion in 3 which Mr. Minton was very pleased with the language that was 4 used and very pleased to see that Mr. Dandar was accusing 5 the leadership of murder. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q If I understood you correctly, ma'am -- and I've 9 really got to get this -- is you use words -- I mean, 10 there's words that always get used in the case. When you 11 said you got into the state of mind, I think what you're 12 saying is you got Jesse Prince stirred enough where he was 13 able to in his mind conjure up that's true. Is that what 14 you're telling us? 15 A I would say that's a pretty good way to put it. 16 But Jesse was already pretty stirred up. 17 Q But you were able to -- in other words, that's why 18 you told us that when Jesse came in -- Mr. Prince came in to 19 testify, that he would tell us it was true, because you -- 20 and I remember what you just said. You got him to talk 21 about this could have happened and that could have happened 22 and -- 23 A That's right. 24 Q -- you were helping him get to this state of mind 25 where he could write that, believing it. 0101
1 A Yes, your Honor. 2 Q And -- 3 A And -- 4 Q -- he passed that information on to Mr. Dandar. 5 A Yes. And I think that Jesse will testify that he 6 believes it to this day. 7 MR. LIROT: Object -- objection. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 A And I think that it's incorrect to say that 10 Mr. Dandar believed this. 11 BY THE COURT: 12 Q Okay. 13 A Because Mr. Dandar's behavior wasn't such that I 14 thought he believed it. 15 Q Okay. And this is back at the time that it was 16 drafted. In other words, back in and around -- let's say -- 17 A '99. 18 Q -- December of '99? 19 A Yes, your Honor. 20 Q Okay. Did he say anything specific? Did you and 21 he have any conversation where that was said, or anything 22 like that was said? 23 A Where anything like, where he would -- 24 Q Where Mr. Dandar -- 25 A -- he -- 0102
1 Q -- yeah -- where Mr. Dandar said, "I know this is 2 not true but I'm going to say it anyway 'cause it's going to 3 really get them," something like that. 4 A Well, you know, Mr. Dandar wouldn't say something 5 like that because he's very careful not to say things like 6 that. But he has certain gestures and ways in which he 7 shrugs and goes like that, that let you know that we're kind 8 of in cahoots. 9 Q What -- 10 A That's -- 11 Q What specifically about this, the fifth complaint, 12 if you recall, that -- 13 I don't know Mr. Dandar well enough -- 14 A His mannerisms, yeah. 15 Q What did he do that caused you to think that he 16 was filing a complaint that he knew was false? 17 A Well, when I read Jesse's affidavit, I thought it 18 was a little over the top, to say the least. In that I 19 thought the language was so dramatic that it wasn't very 20 credible. And I told Mr. Dandar that. And he said, "Well, 21 I'm using it. And it says what I need to have -- you know, 22 whatever -- says what I needed to say." 23 Q Okay. 24 A And then he did this sort of thing that he does. 25 I can't -- I can't repeat it, but it's just -- 0103
1 Q I'm sorry. I don't know what it is either. He 2 has a gesture -- 3 A He has a gesture where he kind of goes like that. 4 (indicating). 5 I don't know how to tell you to write that. 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Well, the date of the Jesse Prince affidavit, by 9 the way -- again, if you would look at it -- it's August of 10 1999 -- 11 A August. 12 Q -- correct? 13 A 20th, yeah. 14 Q And the complaint that we've been discussing was 15 date stamped in, I think, January of 2000, and it was dated 16 the 21st of December, 1999, correct? The one you have there 17 in front of you? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And prior to this, were there several other 20 complaints that were similar to this in language only they 21 said they identified Mr. Miscavige as the chairman of the 22 board of the Religious Technology Center? 23 A Yes. 24 THE COURT: Do we have to ask this witness 25 things that are part of the record? 0104
1 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry? 2 THE COURT: I mean, do we have to ask this 3 witness things that are part of the record? You can 4 bring this out in closing argument. We need to make 5 her a fact witness and what she can do to assist us 6 in resolving this. 7 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to get -- let 8 me -- 9 THE COURT: We'll get to that. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Was there a discussion about how to get around an 12 order of Judge Moody relating to how to put Mr. Miscavige 13 back into the complaint, this fifth amended complaint that 14 you've just identified? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And what was that discussion? 17 THE COURT: And I guess we better know between 18 whom, and who was there. 19 A Okay. Mr. Minton and myself, Dr. Garko, 20 Mr. Prince and Mr. Dandar, Ken Dandar, were there. Judge 21 Moody had ruled that it would breach the contract -- it 22 would be a breach of contract for -- for Mr. Miscavige to be 23 named as the chairman of the board of RTC, but he had -- and 24 I was at that hearing. So -- 25 0105
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q I was going to ask you that. Were you at that 3 hearing? 4 A I was at that hearing, and I remember him saying, 5 "But if you want to try to figure out another way to put him 6 in there that's not corporate," or something like that, you 7 know, "I'll -- I'll look at your new motion," or something. 8 So Judge Moody had left the door open for 9 Mr. Miscavige to be named as a defendant in some other 10 capacity if Mr. Dandar could figure out a way to do it. 11 Q Some other capacity other than as chairman of the 12 board of the Religious Technology Center. 13 A Right, some other way that wouldn't be a breach of 14 that contract. 15 Q And while we're talking about that, did you know 16 if at that point in time -- and I'm saying August of 1999 or 17 thereabouts -- that Mr. Dandar or Ms. Liebreich had entered 18 into a contract not to add RTC or CSI or Mr. Miscavige or 19 any of the ecclesiastical leaders? 20 A After the hearing before Judge Moody I knew it. 21 Q Didn't know it be before -- 22 A But -- 23 Q -- that? 24 A I don't recall, but I certainly knew it then. 25 Q And so was there then, is it fair to say, a 0106
1 problem that had to be solved as far as getting around Judge 2 Moody's order? 3 MR. LIROT: Objection. 4 THE COURT: I don't get it. Like problem what? 5 A legal problem? I mean, this is what lawyers do. 6 MR. FUGATE: Pleading problem. 7 THE COURT: Well, isn't that what lawyers do? 8 If they weren't able to do something one way and 9 they want to try to do it, they try to figure out a 10 way? 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me ask -- 12 THE COURT: Well, I don't know. She's not a 13 lawyer. 14 A But that is what happened. 15 THE COURT: Maybe you are. Are you a lawyer? 16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q What happened? 20 A Well, right away I said, "Name him as a defendant 21 as the head of the Sea Org." 22 THE COURT: As head of what? 23 THE WITNESS: The Sea -- the Sea Organization. 24 Like S-E-A, Sea Organization. 25 0107
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q And was there a -- in your mind, was that a 3 legitimate way to put him in the lawsuit? Was that true? 4 A Well, I thought it would probably work. But there 5 isn't really a thing called the head of the Sea Org. 6 Q Okay. 7 A But I thought it might work. 8 Q And did it work? 9 MR. LIROT: Objection. I guess that remains to 10 be seen. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Well, let me ask it another way. If you go 13 back -- 14 Do you still have the -- do you still have the 15 complaint there? 16 A Yes. 17 THE COURT: I'm not going to ask her to tell us 18 whether his name is in the caption of the complaint. 19 I need you to move on. I mean, it is. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. I didn't understand. 21 THE COURT: Well, I don't want her to have to 22 sit here and answer, while we sit, and have her 23 explain to us what's in a pleading that we can read 24 ourselves. 25 0108
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Well, the allegation that I had referred you to -- 3 and I'll just go directly to it to save time -- is in 4 paragraph 34, the statutory wrongful death claim. It 5 indicates that, "A decision was made by Scientology through 6 the Sea Org by David Miscavige and carried out by," blah, 7 blah, blah, those -- the defendants. Did you see -- did you 8 see that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And was that language language that was 11 fabricated, as you said, to -- 12 MR. LIROT: Objection. Mischaracterizes the 13 evidence. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q How did that allegation, to your knowledge, find 17 its way into the fifth amended complaint? 18 A By my suggestion. 19 Q And was that suggestion made to Mr. Dandar? 20 A Yes, it was. 21 MR. LIROT: Objection on competency. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q And was that objection agreed to by everyone in 25 the trial team? 0109
1 A Everyone except Dr. Garko. Who -- 2 Q He objected? 3 A Strenuously. 4 Q And did you explain to Mr. Dandar that that was 5 not an accurate allegation; that there wasn't a, quote, head 6 of the Sea Org, as you've just indicated? 7 A Did I explain it to him? I don't think I 8 explained it to him. But you know, I told him that I 9 thought he could create a credible argument, because you 10 know, based on the role the Sea Org plays in Scientology 11 and -- you know, we didn't really discuss it in terms of 12 whether it was true or not; we discussed it in terms of -- 13 THE COURT: Whether it was -- 14 A As a strategy. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q As a strategy, did you say? 17 A As a strategy. 18 Q And was -- was that also part of conversations 19 with Mr. Minton to engender or to gain more funding in the 20 lawsuit -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did you ever have discussions with Mr. Dandar 25 at any time about ways to increase damages or to increase 0110
1 Scientology's desire to settle the case for large numbers, 2 in your judgment? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What were those? 5 A Well, from the beginning -- 6 Q When and where, if you can tell us. 7 A Well, I think the first time was in the first 8 phone call that we had in the spring of 1997. I mean, it 9 came -- and then he came out and visited us. 10 I mean, basically this was why Mr. Dandar 11 contacted us, because of this previous strategy that I had 12 developed about -- 13 THE COURT: Counselor, is there something 14 nefarious about trying to get good damages when you 15 file a lawsuit? 16 MR. FUGATE: I think that's -- 17 THE COURT: If not, let's move on to something 18 else. I mean, that's usually what plaintiffs do 19 when they file a lawsuit, is try to figure out how 20 to build damages. Unless -- and I would like to 21 know this -- unless there was some discussion that, 22 "What can we do that's fraudulent, false and what 23 you have to build damages." I mean, were those 24 discussions had? Or was the idea, "How can we build 25 damages and get the church to settle for a high 0111
1 sum." 2 THE WITNESS: The -- the discussion was how to 3 put pressure on the leadership of Scientology to 4 force them to settle. 5 THE COURT: I mean, you required -- you -- as 6 you indicated to us earlier, you remembered about -- 7 I think it was you that testified -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: -- what you had heard before about 10 bringing L. Ron Hubbard in and -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: And that brought about a quick 13 dropping of the suit so you thought this might help 14 to settle the suit. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q We're talking about two things, and so we don't 19 get too confused in the record here, let me just go back and 20 finish the meeting that we were talking about between 21 yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar, Mr. Garko and Mr. Prince 22 about the -- how to get around the Moody order. 23 Can you tell us what else was said there in that 24 meeting, to the best of your recollection today? 25 A Basically Mr. Dandar said, "Listen, I want to get 0112
1 some feedback from you guys about whether or not I ought to 2 add -- whether or not I -- try again to add Miscavige." And 3 you know, this was my pet strategy so I was really pushing 4 it and -- 5 Q And what was -- 6 A And I said, "Yes." 7 Q What was Mr. Minton's position on that? 8 A Mr. Minton didn't say much until the end of the 9 meeting. 10 Q What did he say at the end of the meeting? 11 A At the end of the meeting he said -- he said, 12 "Actually, I'm afraid that this is going to add an enormous 13 amount of cost to the case. So to that degree, I don't 14 think it's a good idea." 15 Q And what did Mr. Dandar say? 16 A Mr. Dandar said, "Hmm, well, I'll think it all 17 over. Thanks for your input." 18 Q And then what happened, to your knowledge? 19 THE COURT: What do you mean what happened? 20 Did they go home or what? 21 MR. FUGATE: You're right, Judge. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q The amended complaint was filed and were there 24 more funds after that complaint was filed in -- 25 THE COURT: Well, Counselor, you're not going 0113
1 anywhere here. The man that you're talking about 2 said don't do something, he did, so you can't very 3 well turn around and say he followed Mr. Minton's 4 wishes and got more money. It's too late for that. 5 She just testified differently. So you move on to 6 something else. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Let's go back then -- did you receive a letter 9 from Mr. Dandar? I think you say in paragraph 7 of your 10 affidavit that you got a letter, you and Mr. -- your 11 then-husband Vaughn Young, got a letter from Mr. Dandar in 12 May of 1997? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you have quotations in it that I'm enclosing a 15 copy of the -- 16 MR. LIROT: Objection. Best evidence rule. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I was making a note 18 here or something and I didn't even hear what was 19 happening. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'll go back, Judge. 21 THE COURT: I think he was laying a predicate. 22 MR. FUGATE: I had switched, as you said -- 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. FUGATE: -- to a different topic, and that 25 was, would you go look at your paragraph 7 in your 0114
1 second affidavit -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: And she -- I was asking her about 4 language that is quoted there that says, "He sent a 5 letter in May, 1997 in which he stated --" and 6 there's a portion in quotations -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. And you said best evidence? 8 MR. LIROT: Best evidence rule. I'd like to 9 see the whole letter, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Well, let me look at it just a 11 minute. 12 MR. LIROT: Very good. 13 THE COURT: Do you have this letter? 14 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to register an 17 objection here. I'd like to see the letter, but 18 we're stomping all over Mr. Dandar's work product in 19 a lot of this. And I think -- I'm as curious as you 20 are about the facts of what's been alleged, but I 21 have deep concerns about -- 22 THE COURT: Well, I do too. You know what, 23 Counselor, the problem is, is that letter is in the 24 hands of the opponent. And they're saying that your 25 client ought to be thrown off this case. So if they 0115
1 didn't have it, then I would say that's something to 2 be concerned about it. But they're the opposition 3 and they've got it. So don't you think we're past 4 that? I mean, we're past it. 5 MR. LIROT: We don't have -- 6 THE COURT: The reason for a work product 7 privilege is so the opposition doesn't get to know 8 your work product. The opposition in this case is 9 the defendant who is -- however it is that they're 10 named -- they've got the letter. 11 MR. LIROT: I -- 12 THE COURT: So I don't know, do you want to 13 keep me from seeing it or this witness? 14 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, I don't mind you seeing 15 it. I'm just curious how they got it. 16 THE COURT: I agree with you, but I mean, how 17 can we protect a product privilege when the 18 opponent's got the work product. 19 MR. LIROT: You make a good point, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Well, I thought I might. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, if we could just have a 22 second? 23 THE COURT: You could. 24 You all can always tell when it gets a little 25 later in the day, can't you? I go from being just 0116
1 so nice in the morning. I can tell, myself. 2 See, what's happening is exactly what I said. 3 These two lawyers appear -- by that I better 4 specify -- Mr. Fugate and Mr. Lirot appeared at my 5 door at noon, and everybody said, "Oh, this is going 6 to move along." I said, "Wrong. We'll never finish 7 with her this afternoon." And guess what, we're 8 not. 9 MR. FUGATE: Right as usual. 10 THE COURT: Why is it that -- I know you guys. 11 And that's exactly what I said, didn't I? I know 12 you guys. It isn't going to happen. And you're not 13 going to finish on Monday and Tuesday. It's going 14 to go on and on and on. 15 MR. LIROT: Here you go, sir. 16 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. FUGATE: At the moment I have one, and I'll 20 give it to her and I'll ask her to hand it up to 21 you -- 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. FUGATE: -- to identify. 24 Here. 25 THE COURT: Did we give the clerk, by the way, 0117
1 the thing from this morning? Did you get that, 2 Madam Clerk? 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 THE COURT: So this will be the next -- we're 5 going to introduce this? 6 MR. FUGATE: Yes, we can. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q I'm looking over the rail, there. 10 Are you looking at three pages or two pages? 11 'Cause I've got -- okay. Good. 'Cause I have a two-page 12 letter. 13 Do you recognize the May 2nd, 1997 letter to you? 14 A Yes. Do you want me to give it to the judge? 15 Q Well, I guess I can give the judge my copy. 16 MR. FUGATE: And we'll then ask that this be 17 made our next exhibit number, which is 74 or -5? 18 THE CLERK: -4. 19 THE COURT: Now, this is the other side's 20 exhibits, and they're way up there. Did you say -4? 21 I know that's wrong. 22 THE CLERK: You're right. That's the 23 plaintiff's. 24 THE COURT: See, she's using the other side's. 25 So you got to get this right. 0118
1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the reason I said 74 or 75 2 is 'cause what we thought we'd do, for the sake of 3 not erring like we have before, is we'll just 4 continue our exhibits that are in your binder, which 5 I think went to -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: It was 72 -- 7 MR. FUGATE: 72. 8 MR. WEINBERG: 73. 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, wrong as usual. 10 73. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIROT: What are the transcripts? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Those are court exhibits. 14 THE COURT: That was a court exhibit. 15 MR. LIROT: Very good. 16 THE COURT: Number 1. 17 MR. FUGATE: I'll hand a copy up for you to 18 look at, and then one of these, we'll make -- 19 THE COURT: All right. So this, Madam Clerk, 20 will become -- well, we're going to have to continue 21 with the same -- this will become the church's 22 Exhibit Number 73. 23 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 73 marked for identification.) 24 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Fugate. 25 0119
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Did you have a chance to read the letter? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And the portion that you quoted there, which is, 5 "I'm enclosing a copy of the proposed amended complaint. I 6 intend to sue David Miscavige as managing agent. Would 7 Mr. Miscavige have personal knowledge of those in isolation 8 and their condition, et cetera --" was that how you first 9 became involved with Mr. Dandar and what he was first 10 looking for in his engagement of you and your husband? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. LIROT: Objection -- 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 14 MR. LIROT: Withdrawn. 15 A Yes. He had -- it was my understanding that he 16 had seen some of my earlier declarations, and he had seen -- 17 he had become familiar with the strategy that I outlined in 18 those declarations with regard to Miscavige. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And would that be through -- are we aware that 21 Mr. Dandar had met Mr. Wollersheim and counsel for 22 Mr. Wollersheim at that time? 23 A I believe he mentioned that in the phone 24 conversation. I became aware of it soon after, if not then. 25 Q And are you aware that Mr. Minton had met 0120
1 Mr. Wollersheim and that was part of his funding 2 anti-Scientology -- 3 THE COURT: Why do we care about that? Is 4 there a reason for that? 5 MR. FUGATE: Well, it ties up with what she 6 said earlier. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 A I'm aware of it now. I wasn't aware of it then. 9 I didn't know Mr. -- 10 THE COURT: She wasn't aware of it. 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q How did you answer Mr. Dandar, would Mr. Miscavige 14 have personal knowledge of those in isolation and their 15 condition? 16 A I said he could have. 17 Q Yeah. So you told him the answer to that is -- is 18 yes or could have or something like that? 19 A I said -- I said, "Again, if you want to put 20 pressure on Scientology, you should go after Miscavige." 21 See, your Honor, the thing I don't remember is, 22 it's my -- it's my recollection that the reason he said 23 this, "I intend to sue David Miscavige as managing agent," 24 was because of the phone call that we had. But he may have 25 already had that intention prior to the phone call. But 0121
1 that was my thing, you know, that's what I -- that's what I 2 said. So we had already discussed it over the phone. 3 Q But he's asking you. You and your husband at that 4 time are -- I don't know what you were. You were either 5 experts or -- or consultants or something. And I guess he 6 says, "I intend to sue David Miscavige as managing agent," 7 and then this is a question to you, Stacy and Vaughn, "Would 8 Mr. Miscavige have personal knowledge of those in isolation 9 and their condition?" And your response to him was -- 10 A "He could have." 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Okay. Now if you look at page 7 -- 15 THE WITNESS: You know, for your purposes, he 16 could have. 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY THE COURT: 19 Q Well, I mean, I've read something -- and I've 20 read, as I said, an awful lot about the church's procedures, 21 but I've read something somewhere, and good Lord knows where 22 it could be, that said somebody that is in PTS-III 23 condition -- 24 A Mm-hmm. 25 Q -- would be reported clear to the top. The top is 0122
1 David Miscavige. So if that's true, then he would know. If 2 that's not true, then he wouldn't know. 3 A Well, actually I said that. 4 Q Oh, well, then that's where I read it. Was that 5 true? 6 A I don't believe so. 7 Q Oh, well, then I read it -- because I think when I 8 read something -- I guess one just shouldn't assume that 9 anymore. But I think when I read something, especially an 10 affidavit or something from a witness, I can believe it and 11 I can put it in my bank of memory and know that it's 12 accurate. So -- 13 A I can understand why you would expect that. 14 Q Okay. 15 A But in this circumstance -- 16 Q Well, how high up does it go? Who does -- does it 17 just go up to Mr. Karduzinski, for example? I mean, we know 18 that. 19 A Well -- 20 Q Does he report to somebody about these PTS-IIIs? 21 Which we know Lisa McPherson was. I mean, that's the 22 church's position, that she was in an introspection rundown, 23 which is why none of that gets to be looked at by a jury. 24 A Right. Right. 25 Q And I'm protecting that. So I mean, I'm 0123
1 protecting a religious practice of the church. 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. At their request. 4 A Mm-hmm. 5 Q How high up does it go? What's going on with one 6 of these PTS-IIIs. 7 A Well, first of all, I've got to tell you that, you 8 know, this happens in Scientology -- I mean, I suppose it 9 happens anywhere in life, but it happens in Scientology that 10 a person, you know, freaks out and has to be under watch for 11 a while to make sure that they're okay. On a routine basis 12 with one of these things, it -- and I mean, I'm telling you 13 totally my speculation here -- based on my experience as 14 well, but my experience is from the '80s. 15 But I do not think that on a routine basis 16 everybody who freaks out is reported to Miscavige. 17 Q But we're talking about someone here who was in 18 this state for 17 days. 19 A Right. 20 Q And I presume that's a fairly long time. 21 A I -- I would say so. 22 It was based on the fact that she was in that 23 state for a long time, you know, that we speculated that he 24 might have been told about it. And you know, it's not the 25 kind of thing that you can say, yes, he would have been told 0124
1 about it or, no, he wouldn't have been told about that. 2 It's -- it's impossible to know. 3 Q But he might have been, which is the reason why 4 you might add somebody, take a deposition and see. Was that 5 discussed? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. 8 A No. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Did you understand this to be -- did you 12 understand from Mr. Dandar that this was to be a legal 13 maneuver, the adding of Mr. Miscavige -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- in an individual capacity to get around Judge 16 Moody's order? 17 A Oh, well, that wasn't regarding this letter. 18 Q No, I'm talking -- I'm sorry -- I skipped back to 19 the August and November/October -- 20 A Okay. 21 Q -- '99 period. 22 MR. LIROT: Objection to characterization. I 23 don't know what a legal maneuver is, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Well, if she was told that it was a 25 legal maneuver, then I'm going to let her answer. 0125
1 If she wasn't, we're going to have to -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I just changed time zones 3 here, so let me get back so we're clear. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q I was actually going to direct you back to your 6 affidavit -- 7 A Okay. 8 MR. FUGATE: Page 7 and 8, Counsel. 9 THE COURT: Are we done with the letter now? 10 Can I give it to the clerk? 11 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Madam Clerk. 13 Well, let me see that. Let me just read it. 14 Go ahead. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Did you get a chance to read back to 15 and 16? 17 A Are we going to paragraphs? 18 Q Yeah. Paragraph 15 and 16, on page 7 and 8 -- 19 A Of whose affidavit? 20 Q Of your -- 21 A Oh. 22 Q Of your second affidavit that was filed. 23 A Okay. Paragraphs 15 and 16? 24 Q Mm-hmm. 25 A Okay. 0126
1 Q You indicate there, "I knew there really was no 2 such thing as head of the Sea Org, but Dandar thought it 3 would work as a legal maneuver." What did you mean by that? 4 A Well, the Sea Org is a -- is not a hierarchal 5 thing. The Sea Org is -- the Sea Org is something that 6 people join in Scientology when they want to dedicate their 7 whole life to Scientology. And they sign a million-year 8 contract, and it's a very strong commitment. 9 THE COURT: It's a nonpublic member. 10 A It's for sure a nonpublic member. It's the 11 most -- it's the people in Scientology who are the most 12 dedicated to furthering the aims of Scientology, basically. 13 And it's a bit amorphous, really. In other words, it 14 doesn't really have a shape; it doesn't really have an 15 organization in and of itself. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q And it's not a corporate entity. 18 A And it's not a corporate entity. But it is a 19 thing. I mean, there is such a thing as the Sea Org. 20 And -- and if you couldn't -- you know, this contract that 21 Mr. Dandar had signed was pretty binding. So you kind of 22 had to slither around it a little bit because they cover all 23 of -- all of the corporate bases. I mean, RTC, CSI, the 24 people that were named in that agreement, that kind of 25 covered the top of Scientology. 0127
1 MR. LIROT: I'd object to that as to 2 competency. I don't know that she has -- 3 THE COURT: Well, that's overruled. I think 4 she's quite competent to testify about this. And, 5 quite frankly, I understand it. I understand 6 exactly what she's saying. 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think you misunderstood my 8 objection. She's speaking as to the effectiveness 9 of this agreement, stating that it covered the top 10 of Scientology. I think that's a legal conclusion. 11 What she knows is fine, but what the impact of this 12 settlement agreement is, is something I don't think 13 she's competent to testify to. 14 THE COURT: Okay. I think she knew that they 15 were going to have some trouble based on the -- 16 based on the fact that there's a summary judgment, 17 for heaven's sake, which means there's no fact at 18 issue. I would say was a pretty tight contract. 19 And you all talked about that. 20 THE WITNESS: It was a pretty tight contract. 21 THE COURT: It was a pretty tight contract. 22 And she knew, and Mr. Dandar knew. But was 23 anybody trying to do anything illegal here? Was 24 this kind of a manipulation to see if there was 25 another way to add David Miscavige, who might have 0128
1 known what happened to Lisa McPherson -- 2 Isn't that what was going on? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, what was going on 4 was trying to figure out a way to add Miscavige that 5 wouldn't violate that contract. 6 THE COURT: Right. And you indicated, and you 7 certainly had told Mr. Dandar, based on your 8 experience, that -- that in response to his request, 9 that Mr. -- 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Miscavige. 11 THE COURT: -- might have known, might have had 12 a report about what was happening in Lisa 13 McPherson's case. And Dandar thought that if he 14 could get Miscavige in there, as everybody told him, 15 he might get a quick settlement, better settlement, 16 the whole thing. I mean, I really understand this. 17 I understand -- good judges, I guess, just 18 understand both sides of a case pretty well. 19 MR. FUGATE: Well -- 20 THE COURT: You guys, as I said, kind of look 21 in a tunnel vision. You only understand your own 22 side. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm reading an affidavit 24 that I'm -- 25 THE COURT: I know. 0129
1 MR. FUGATE: -- going to ask her about, because 2 it certainly is set out different there. 3 THE COURT: All right Yes. Yes. I'm sure it 4 is. 5 Who did this affidavit? 6 THE WITNESS: Which? 7 THE COURT: This one. 8 THE WITNESS: Mine? 9 THE COURT: Yeah. 10 THE WITNESS: I did. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q It says, "Mr. Dandar and I had discussed it," 14 meaning, I guess, the strategy -- "and had already 15 suggested -- I had already suggested a scenario how this 16 could be done by falsely claiming that Mr. Miscavige had a 17 different role as head of the Sea Organization apart from 18 his --" 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I object. I would prefer 20 questions -- 21 THE COURT: Absolutely. This affidavit is in 22 evidence, and you don't get to go back and ask her 23 now what she's saying is contrary to that. That's 24 kind of like the craziness that went on up there 25 about reading from somebody else's deposition. It's 0130
1 in evidence, it stands for what it stands for and it 2 says what it says. 3 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 4 Now let me go to paragraph 16, because that's 5 my question. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Would you read paragraph 16, which followed on the 8 heels of 15? 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we just talked about 10 this. 11 MR. FUGATE: No, we haven't talked about what's 12 in paragraph 16. 13 THE WITNESS: You want me to read -- 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may object, this is 15 leading, it's creating testimony. I'd like 16 questions asked, and if her memory's not good enough 17 to answer the question, she can refresh her memory 18 with the affidavit. This is entirely improper. 19 THE COURT: Yeah. I kind of think so too. I 20 mean, we've got an affidavit and you're going down 21 on somebody's affidavit that's sworn to under oath 22 and now asking her in court, read it and tell me if 23 it's true. 24 MR. FUGATE: No, I'm not asking her -- 25 THE COURT: The deal is, I think what you need 0131
1 to do is say, "At the end of the meeting, what 2 happened," and if she says something different from 3 this, pick it up and question her with it. 4 Otherwise, we're really wasting a lot of time. 5 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, you asked a couple of 6 questions there. We -- and I know you can do that, 7 and you did. We went far afield of where I was 8 headed. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q And I want to go back -- 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q -- and ask you, you indicate that the meeting 14 ended, everybody went down in an elevator and there was a 15 comment made by Mr. Dandar. What was the comment and how 16 did you take that? 17 A He said, "By the way, this meeting never 18 happened." 19 Q What did you understand that to mean in reference 20 to the meeting that you had just discussed up here in 21 paragraph 15? 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. LIROT: This is a compound question, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Well, not only that, but, "By the 0132
1 way, this meeting never happened" is pretty clear. 2 And she can't tell us what was in Mr. Dandar's mind. 3 He'll have to be asked. 4 You can ask what it meant to her. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q What did it mean to you? 7 A It meant to me that Mr. Minton wasn't supposed to 8 be in on strategy meetings and we weren't to discuss that he 9 had been and that -- that it never happened. 10 Q And were there strategy meetings after that that 11 you and Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar were involved in, in 12 regards to this litigation? 13 THE COURT: That won't do, Counselor. If there 14 was a strategy meeting, we're going to have to get 15 specific here. You're trying to remove a lawyer. I 16 need to know time, date, place, who was there, when 17 it was and what was said. 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I just went through the 19 affidavit as to that meeting, Judge, and -- 20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, was there any more? 21 MR. FUGATE: That's what I was asking, I 22 thought. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Were there any more strategy meetings between you, 0133
1 Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar to discuss the trial strategy or 2 pleading strategy in this frame of reference? 3 A There was the meeting that I have already talked 4 about in Philadelphia. 5 Q Mm-hmm. 6 A There were some phone calls when Mr. Minton was up 7 in New Hampshire where Mr. Dandar would update him on what 8 was happening. 9 THE COURT: Were you listening in on them? 10 THE WITNESS: Usually, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 A There was -- 13 THE COURT: Then you better go into them. You 14 better go into them one at a time, what they were, 15 what was said. 16 THE WITNESS: Well -- 17 THE COURT: If they were strategy session where 18 Mr. Minton was telling Mr. Dandar how to run this 19 lawsuit, we better hear about it. If it was 20 Mr. Dandar telling Mr. Minton what was going on in 21 the case, I don't care to hear about it. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, that's what was 23 happening. 24 THE COURT: All right. Then we don't need to 25 hear about it. 0134
1 MR. FUGATE: I'm not sure I understand. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q What was happening? 4 A When Mr. Dandar was telling Mr. Minton what was 5 happening. And -- 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q I think what he's asking, frankly, what's 9 important in this particular piece of this puzzle, is 10 whether -- there's been an allegation Mr. Minton, because he 11 paid money, was somehow or other directing the litigation. 12 So when he's saying strategy session, is what he's 13 talking about, was there any more strategy sessions where 14 Mr. Minton was there making suggestions and telling 15 Mr. Dandar how to run the lawsuit? 16 A Your Honor, I think I've pretty much covered 17 that -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A -- earlier in the sense of talking about how 20 Mr. Minton was very adamant about making sure that the focus 21 stayed on Scientology. 22 There were phone calls in which he reiterated 23 that. I can't tell you more specific than that. I just -- 24 you know, over a period of time there were a number of phone 25 calls in which that same desire on the part of Mr. Minton 0135
1 was reiterated. 2 Q Keep the emphasis on Scientology, not the workers. 3 A Right. 4 Q Did he ever say -- well, I guess what's really 5 important, did he say, "Use these false things that I've 6 told you about"? 7 A No. 8 Q Or was it just where the emphasis was to be? 9 A The emphasis. 10 Q Keep the emphasis on the church, less on the 11 workers. I mean, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, 12 but I'm -- 13 He wanted this to make the church hurt. 14 A He wanted -- 15 Q Mr. Minton did. 16 A Yes. Yes. 17 Q And he wanted, if there was going to be publicity, 18 for it to be against the church -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- not against some Janis Johnson that anybody in 21 the world would know about and nobody in the world would 22 write about and nobody would care about. They might write 23 about the Church of Scientology. 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: Sorry. 0136
1 MR. FUGATE: That's okay. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q You just touched on publicity. Can you tell us, 5 was there, in your understanding, a purpose in the formation 6 of the Lisa McPherson Trust that dealt with creating 7 publicity about anti-Scientology activity and the case -- 8 this case in particular? 9 MR. LIROT: Objection. Best evidence. The 10 mission statement for the Lisa McPherson Trust 11 speaks for itself. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q How was the Lisa McPherson Trust started, if you 15 can tell us? If you know. 16 A As I said earlier, and I'll pick it up where I 17 left off before, there was an agreement between the estate 18 and Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton that the bulk of the proceeds 19 of the lawsuit were going to go to an anti-Scientology 20 organization that Mr. Minton was involved with as a way of 21 repaying him for his help on the case. And -- and as a way 22 of allowing Mr. Minton to further his aims, which were to 23 attack Scientology. 24 And so when he and I left the board of directors 25 of that early organization, FACTNet, we began making plans 0137
1 to create a new organization. And you know, we talked to 2 Mr. Dandar about it, we talked to the family, Dell Liebreich 3 about it. They were very happy. Mr. Dandar was very 4 excited about it. He filed the incorporation papers for us 5 in the fall of '99. 6 And you know, Mr. Minton -- I didn't -- I thought 7 it would be better for this organization to be in 8 Washington, D.C. Mr. Minton wanted it right in 9 Scientology's face, right in downtown Clearwater. Because 10 he wanted to be very confrontational. He wanted to create 11 as much media as possible. He wanted to really broadcast as 12 much as possible the abuse of Scientology. 13 Q Did he, Mr. Minton, discuss that plan with 14 Mr. Dandar, to your knowledge? 15 THE COURT: What plan? 16 MR. FUGATE: The plan -- 17 THE COURT: Where to put LMT? 18 MR. FUGATE: Where to put LMT, the purpose -- 19 THE COURT: What do you care and what's the 20 relevance of that to this hearing? 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think it's set out on our 22 papers, but -- 23 THE COURT: Well, tell me real quickly, if you 24 can, what it is. We're here to discuss three 25 things. We finished one, the next thing is the 0138
1 agreement, whether there was a agreement, and 2 finally we're going to get to fraudulent and false 3 statements. We've done 1 and 3. What is this 4 about? 5 MR. FUGATE: This goes to the agreement. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: And as you said, the odd fact that 8 things reversed out, whatever it was you said 9 yesterday. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Was -- was there a discussion between 12 Mr. Dandar -- were there discussions between Mr. Dandar and 13 Mr. Minton about the formation and the -- that you've just 14 described, and putting it -- putting the LMT in Clearwater, 15 putting Lisa McPherson's name on it, et cetera? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. Whether there 18 were discussions between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar, 19 I want to know what she knows, not just some general 20 question. I prefer her knowledge. 21 THE COURT: I -- I agree with that. I mean, 22 you're going to have to ask her whether she was a 23 party to these, at the very least. I assume we're 24 going to hear from Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton about 25 these, so if she didn't hear them, then it doesn't 0139
1 matter. 2 MR. FUGATE: I think I said of her knowledge, 3 but if I didn't -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Did I say of your knowledge? 7 A I don't know, but I was responding to the ones 8 that were in my presence. 9 Q Okay. Would you tell us about the ones that were 10 in your presence, that -- 11 A Well, at that time we were -- we didn't have any 12 other office space so we were working out of Mr. Dandar's 13 office, out of his conference room. 14 Q Who is we? 15 A Mr. Minton and I, to get this organization set up 16 and to find office space and, you know, working on getting 17 it established. And so we spent quite a bit of time over at 18 Mr. Dandar's office, you know, upon several occasions. We 19 were over there discussing the plans for the organization. 20 Q And who was discussing the plans for the 21 organization in the meetings that you've just described? 22 A The three of us, Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and 23 myself. I don't recall who else was there, if anyone. 24 Q Was there a decision to have the personal 25 representative, Dell Liebreich, become part of the Lisa 0140
1 McPherson Trust? 2 A Mr. Dandar wanted her on the board actually as a 3 way to publicly demonstrate the connection between the Lisa 4 McPherson Trust and the case. 5 Q And was there a decision -- 6 A And sort of her stamp of approval on the 7 organization. 8 Q And that was a discussion that you witnessed 9 between Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And was there a decision about using Lisa 12 McPherson's name? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what was your understanding of the purpose for 15 that? 16 A Because Mr. Minton wanted -- you know, she had 17 become a symbol of -- the wrongful death case had become a 18 symbol for the critic community all over the world, the 19 Scientology critic community all over the world, for the 20 abuse of Scientology. And he wanted that symbol to be the 21 name of the organization. 22 Q Were there discussions then in these preliminary 23 meetings about generating -- just a yes or no -- generating 24 publicity or public sentiment against Scientology as one of 25 the purposes? 0141
1 MR. LIROT: Leading question, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Beyond that, what difference does 3 it make? I mean, I can assume that the LMT -- I can 4 assume that the idea of the LMT was to put Lisa 5 McPherson, the dead person that they said 6 Scientology caused, right there in the forefront. I 7 mean, this is obvious, what it was all about. This 8 is what Mr. Minton wanted it to be all about. Maybe 9 this is what Mr. Dandar wanted it to be all about. 10 And I mean, what -- so what. What we need to 11 know is whether there was an agreement to pay the 12 money from the lawsuit into there and what in the 13 world, if anything, she knew about it. That's 14 really all that I care about for this very small 15 hearing that now is quarter after 4 on your direct 16 that was going to be done today. She was going to 17 be off the stand. 18 Go on ahead. 19 MR. FUGATE: I'm going. 20 THE COURT: And we're going to take a break at 21 4:30, and we're going to go till we finish this 22 witness. Because we're not going to have her 23 brought back after a weekend. We're going to finish 24 her and she's never coming back in this courtroom, 25 in this hearing. So however long that takes, let's 0142
1 get it done. 2 And we're going to start Monday morning with 3 Mr. Minton. And then when he's done, he's done. 4 And then we're going to get on to the defense case. 5 I mean, we've got to make this go to the 6 conclusion so we can have a ruling and decide 7 whether we're going to go to trial or not. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Was there -- was there a discussion about 10 generating -- and I'll tie it up, Judge -- negative or -- 11 publicity or creating negative public sentiment against the 12 Church of Scientology? 13 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q To support -- to support the Lisa McPherson -- 16 THE COURT: I don't know whether it was asked 17 and answered, but -- but, Lee, this is a hearing in 18 front of me, for heaven's sakes. We know this. How 19 many -- how many things are in the record about 20 those folks up there parading around with signs, 21 including Mr. Dandar, including Mr. Minton, 22 including Mr. Prince. And they were all part of the 23 LMT. I mean -- 24 MR. FUGATE: You're right. 25 THE COURT: -- good Lord, you're telling me the 0143
1 obvious. If you decide to take an appeal, if I make 2 an adverse ruling, you can make it part of the 3 record. Don't bore me with stuff I know -- 4 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 5 THE COURT: I'm going to take a break. We're 6 going to take a recess. 7 Same -- the same, ma'am. Don't -- don't -- 8 We're going to be in recess until 4:30. Make 9 your arrangements, whatever it takes. We're going 10 to stay till we finish this witness. 11 (A recess was taken.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25