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1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 2 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, afternoon session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 0146
1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 0147
1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0148
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 EXAMINATION The Court 155 20 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 181 14 4 EXAMINATION The Court 186 24 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 193 16 5 EXAMINATION The Court 194 6 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 207 2 6 EXAMINATION The Court 208 5 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 210 16 7 EXAMINATION The Court 211 3 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 214 13 8 EXAMINATION The Court 219 4 DIRECT (Resumed) Mr. Fugate 220 10 9 EXAMINATION The Court 221 6 Recess 232 12 10 Reporter's Certificate 233 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0149
1 THE COURT: Okay. Continue on. 2 MR. LIROT: We'll wait for Mr. Fugate, but I 3 want to make a statement before we start. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: Sorry, Judge, actually I was in 6 line at the men's room. Believe it or not. 7 THE COURT: Counsel wanted to make a statement. 8 MR. LIROT: The only thing, Judge, he made a 9 comment about Mr. Dandar participating in the 10 pickets. And I know I talked to him about it -- 11 Mr. Dandar never participated in any picket. I 12 think his statement was he was in a vigil or 13 something like that. But he was just very concerned 14 about that. 15 THE COURT: All I know is I saw a picture of 16 Mr. Dandar carrying a sign that appeared like what 17 somebody might carry in a picket, vigil, whatever 18 one wanted to call it. I don't know that it was a 19 picket, to tell you the truth. I don't know what it 20 was. But I know I saw Mr. Dandar with a sign 21 involving this case. 22 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Involving Lisa McPherson. But I, 24 quite frankly -- 25 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 0150
1 Honor? I'd offer -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, first of all, do you recognize the folks in 4 the photo there that I've just handed up, which would be our 5 Exhibit 74? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And can you identify it, please? 8 A Well, it's the trial team. 9 Q Okay. And the trial team would be -- who is on 10 the far left, as you look at the photo? 11 A That's Jesse Prince. 12 Q Okay. And what is he holding in his hand? 13 A He's holding -- 14 THE COURT: Did you not just put this into 15 evidence? 16 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Well, I tried -- 17 THE COURT: Did I not see it? 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I mean, we can see it. It's in 20 evidence, right? It's a picture of -- what do you 21 want her to explain? It's in evidence. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Okay. Is Mr. Dandar in the photograph? 24 A Yes, he is. 25 Q Okay. And is this outside the criminal court -- 0151
1 A Yes. 2 Q -- in Pinellas County? 3 THE COURT: And whatever -- this is isn't the 4 one I saw. I saw a picture with Mr. Dandar holding 5 a sign himself. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. I've got those, Judge -- 7 THE COURT: I think. 8 MR. FUGATE: -- as well. Put those in here -- 9 Well, let's try to address the judge's concerns 10 and move forward. Would that be 74, or you say it's 11 already in? 12 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, did you get your copy? 13 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge. 14 THE COURT: I believe that's 74. 15 THE CLERK: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Here, did you get this, Madam 17 Clerk? 18 Continue. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And to follow up, did Mr. Dandar, to your 21 observation, participate in picketing? 22 A Yes. I do believe I recall him actually holding a 23 sign a couple of times, but you know, he also participated 24 in the -- what sort of became known as the annual memorial 25 for Lisa McPherson. 0152
1 Q Which is -- 2 A A lot of people would come to Clearwater -- 3 Q December 4th and 5th or thereabouts each year? 4 A It was on the anniversary of her death, on 5 December 5th. 6 Q Now, in your affidavit, you -- you have a term, 7 the secret agreement. And to go right to the heart of that 8 issue, can you describe what you mean -- what you're 9 describing in your affidavit as the secret agreement and how 10 it differs from the other funding agreement as you 11 understood it? 12 A Well, as I -- 13 MR. LIROT: Objection. No foundation. I don't 14 know what the other agreement is. I don't know what 15 the secret agreement is. I need a foundation for 16 this, Judge, at least. 17 THE COURT: Well, it's her affidavit. She's 18 called it secret agreement, so we need to know -- 19 she needs to testify about it. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'm asking her to do it in her 21 words, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A Okay. I said before, that there was an agreement 24 between Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and the estate that the bulk 25 of the proceeds from the wrongful death case would go to the 0153
1 LMT. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Okay. 4 THE COURT: And I think that what -- what's 5 fair here, if this was counsel's objection, we need 6 to know, ma'am, not what you -- we need to know sort 7 of what you participated in. In other words, when 8 you say there was an agreement between this one, 9 this one and this one, where you participated and 10 what parties were present and this type of thing. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Okay? 13 A I was told by Mr. Minton that this agreement 14 existed; it was mentioned at the -- when Mr. Dandar and 15 Ms. Liebreich attended the first board meeting of the LMT; 16 we all greeted each other and chatted afterwards and talked 17 about how exciting this was and -- 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Was there specifically conversation about the 20 funding by Mr. Minton and -- 21 A Yeah. How exciting it was that the bulk of the 22 proceeds was going to go to the LMT and -- 23 Q All right. Did -- you identified Ms. Liebreich. 24 Were those words that came out of her mouth? 25 A Those were words that came out of Mr. Dandar's 0154
1 mouth, but she was there and she was -- she nodded in 2 agreement, and she was very appreciative of Mr. Minton's 3 help and -- 4 Q And was there an understanding in that discussion 5 that there would be a payback of the moneys that had been 6 put into the case? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q If you know. 10 THE COURT: With that, if she knows. I mean, 11 it seems like we started off talking about the 12 proceeds from recovery. 13 MR. FUGATE: No. The -- 14 THE COURT: Talking about something else now? 15 THE WITNESS: The secret agreement, your Honor, 16 wasn't that he would get -- that he would get the -- 17 his loan back; the secret agreement -- I mean, that 18 was just a regular loan agreement that he had made 19 with the estate and Mr. Dandar at the beginning; 20 that, you know, he would be repaid the money that he 21 had loaned them from the proceeds of the case. 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. Best evidence. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. Apparently best 24 evidence would be nice if we had something in 25 writing, but we don't apparently. 0155
1 THE WITNESS: But the agreement that I'm 2 referring to was an agreement that was separate from 3 that loan agreement. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. This was the agreement 5 you're talking about that the -- that the -- 6 THE WITNESS: Bulk. 7 THE COURT: -- bulk -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 THE COURT: The bulk of the proceeds -- 10 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 11 THE COURT: -- would go to the -- 12 THE WITNESS: -- LMT. And Mr. Minton was very 13 excited about this and talked about it on the 14 Internet. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Published it. 17 A On the Internet. 18 And also talked about it on a radio show that he 19 was on and -- and this was -- 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY THE COURT: 22 Q How could it be secret if it was on the Internet? 23 A It wasn't secret at that time. 24 Q You put it in your affidavit. 25 A Yeah. And the -- well, I'll get to the secret 0156
1 part -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- in just a second. But you know, the people at 4 the LMT knew about it and it was sort of a happy thing. I 5 mean, everybody was very happy about it. 6 Q And everybody who read the Internet knew about it, 7 I guess. 8 A Yeah. For sure, that's true. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And then -- then what happened was Scientology 11 started to interject an argument into the wrongful death 12 case saying that, you know, this was all a business deal; 13 Minton was going to benefit from this case; this was -- you 14 know, he was -- you know, doing all these things for 15 business reasons. And Mr. Dandar got, you know, really 16 upset that Scientology was doing this. You know, we had a 17 couple of conversations in which I said to him, Mr. Dandar, 18 there's nothing wrong with the bulk of the proceeds going to 19 the Lisa McPherson Trust. And you know, so what if 20 Scientology says that about it? 21 But Mr. Dandar was -- 22 THE COURT: Sounds like me, doesn't it? Isn't 23 that what I said? 24 Okay. Sorry. 25 A Yeah. 0157
1 But Mr. Dandar was really concerned about it. You 2 know, the Scientology attorneys were really turning this 3 into a major issue. And so Mr. Dandar told us that we were 4 going to have to stop talking about this agreement about the 5 bulk of the proceeds. And -- and then -- 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q And when did that occur? 8 A When he said that? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A In the fall. It started to be, you know, don't 11 talk about that, don't talk about that, in the -- in the 12 fall of 2000. 13 Q Okay. 14 A As I recall. Maybe late summer. Whenever the -- 15 you know, you'd be able to tell by the record of the case 16 because whenever that thing started happening where they 17 were accusing Minton of investing in the lawsuit, you know, 18 that whole thing. 19 I think it was late summer or fall of 2000. And 20 then it -- December, 2000 is when the secret agreement 21 became a real serious issue because that was when Mr. Minton 22 signed the false affidavit about it. And he felt extremely 23 uncomfortable about it because -- and I actually encouraged 24 him to feel extremely uncomfortable about it, because it 25 seemed to me that if he was putting in writing and swearing 0158
1 to the fact that there was no agreement, well, then -- then 2 there wasn't going to be any bulk of the proceeds going to 3 anything. And you know, he spoke to Mr. Dandar about this, 4 and Mr. Dandar said -- 5 MR. LIROT: Objection. We don't know if she 6 was anywhere near these conversations. 7 THE WITNESS: I was. I was there. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Whenever I talk about 10 one of these conversations, I mean 'cause I was 11 there. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know -- and he talked to me about it quite a 15 bit, Mr. Minton did. Because I was saying, you know, "Don't 16 do this. It's not a good idea." 17 But he spoke to Mr. Dandar about it; Mr. Dandar 18 said, "Look, you know, the agreement still exists. It's 19 just that we can't talk about it and we can't -- you know, 20 it -- we've got to get away from this in the case because 21 they're really trying to use this as a way to, you know, 22 derail the case, so --" or whatever. 23 And so, you know, of course, that's what's going 24 to happen when the -- when the -- when we get a judgment. 25 But we have to say that it's not. 0159
1 Q If we just file a bunch of false affidavits, we 2 won't derail the case. 3 A Well, you see, your Honor, that's a good point you 4 bring up, because -- right. 5 Q I'm sorry. I just kind of interjected myself, and 6 I didn't need to do that. 7 A Well -- 8 Q I'm sorry. 9 A That's how I feel about it too. It's -- 10 subsequently, I lied about this in a deposition; Mr. Minton 11 lied about this in a deposition. 12 Q About this -- 13 A About the fact that -- 14 Q The bulk of the proceeds were going -- 15 A Right. 16 Q -- to be -- 17 A That was asked -- that was specifically asked, I 18 think it was by Mr. Moxon, I think. You know, I -- and 19 first he asked me about it and I tried to get around it by 20 distracting him in another direction, but you know, that 21 didn't work. And so then he asked me again, you know, "Is 22 there an agreement for the bulk of the proceeds?" And I 23 said, "No." Well, you know, I was lying. And Mr. Minton 24 started lying about it. And -- 25 Q Why, for heaven sakes? 0160
1 A Well -- 2 Q You had already said -- you said what's the big 3 deal? It's okay. 4 A I know, but Mr. Dandar felt very, very strongly 5 that it was important that we do this. And -- 6 Q Did he ever say why? Other than they were just 7 making a big deal about it and -- 8 A Because they -- because -- 9 Q It was derailing the case? 10 A Yeah. Because Scientology was using this 11 agreement to turn the case into a case about Mr. Minton and 12 not about Lisa McPherson. That was basically the -- the way 13 that he spoke about it. Scientology was turning it into a 14 case about Mr. Minton and not about Lisa McPherson. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And so the only way to get the attention off of 17 Mr. Minton was to say that there was no agreement. 18 Now, you can imagine this was a little difficult 19 to do after he'd gone on the radio and posted things on the 20 Internet saying that there was. And of course, Mr. Moxon 21 was bringing these things out at his deposition and saying, 22 "There's no agreement? Well, then why did you say there was 23 an agreement?" You know, it was -- it was -- it was just so 24 obvious. You know, it was just so obvious. 25 But -- 0161
1 Q Well, you knew that -- you knew -- you've been in 2 this Church of Scientology. You knew they had fine lawyers. 3 A The best -- 4 Q And you knew that they absolutely would have known 5 what was out on the Internet said by Mr. Minton. 6 A In a heartbeat. 7 Q And surely, surely, you knew therefore there would 8 be a deposition where Mr. Minton would be asked about, 9 "Well, look here what you said." Did you talk to him about 10 this? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Did you say, "We're crazy to do this"? 13 A Yes, your Honor, I certainly said that. 14 Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar, "I can't believe you're 15 asking us to do such a stupid thing"? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And what did he say? What did -- 18 A Well -- 19 Q -- Mr. Dandar say? 20 A In fact -- in fact, I had, even before that 21 started, to say to Mr. Minton, "Stop funding this case, we 22 need to get away from it as far as we can." And to 23 Mr. Dandar, you know, "You cannot keep asking Mr. Minton -- 24 especially him -- to lie. You know, he's getting in worse 25 and worse and worse trouble. And you know, don't keep 0162
1 asking him for money because all it's doing is getting him 2 into more and more and more depositions where he's having to 3 lie more and more." 4 Q What did he say? 5 A "Stop asking him for money." 6 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 7 A He went like this. 8 Q That same -- 9 A The same thing. 10 MR. FUGATE: The gesture, for the record? 11 THE WITNESS: It was a gesture. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q But he didn't say anything? 14 A He said, "That's up to Bob." 15 You know, this whole thing came up that -- then it 16 came about that Mr. Dandar and his group of people were 17 feeling that I was manipulating Mr. Minton and that I was, 18 you know, having some sort of sinister influence over him, 19 for reasons which I -- have never really been clear to me. 20 But there was this whole thing and, you know, that I was 21 doing something really bad to be trying to get Mr. Minton to 22 stop his funding of the case and to stop this -- you know, I 23 don't think that other people were aware of the fact that 24 this perjury was going on, because I certainly wasn't saying 25 a word about it to anybody else except for Mr. Minton and 0163
1 Mr. Dandar. And -- but there was a -- there was a 2 deposition on August 15th, 1999 -- no, I'm sorry -- 2000 -- 3 was it '99 or 2000? Just a minute. I'll tell you. 4 FROM THE GALLERY: 2001. 5 A August, 2001. Sorry. 6 THE COURT: Who -- who in the world is giving 7 her answers back there? Please. 8 A On August 15th, 2001. Okay. So that was after. 9 So I'm sorry. I was mixed up. 10 I'll go back to the December, 2000 time. 11 Mr. Dandar had -- 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. Let -- I've written down a wrong date here 14 now. 15 A Yeah. Forget the August 15th. I'll get to that 16 in a minute. 17 Q Okay. So what are we going back to? 18 A We're going back to December, 2000. 19 Q 12-2000. I got you. 20 A That was when Bob signed the affidavit that said 21 there was no agreement. I believe that was the same time as 22 Liebreich signed an affidavit that there was no agreement. 23 And I think it was shortly after that that Mr. Dandar filed 24 a motion attacking those two pleadings -- I mean, those two 25 affidavits, asserting that there was no agreement. 0164
1 Well, you know, I was starting to feel like 2 Mr. Minton was getting set up to be royally shafted. 3 Q Good choice of words. I had another one. I was 4 waiting to see if you could find -- 5 A I was thinking of something else. 6 Q I'll bet you were. 7 A I began to feel that way very strongly. And you 8 know, Mr. Minton felt very strongly about this cause, 9 that -- about being against Scientology. He felt very, very 10 strongly about it. And he was providing funding -- 11 Q I'm sorry. I was coughing. He was what? 12 A He was providing funding to Mr. Dandar without 13 asking for any accounting of what was being done with the 14 money; despite the fact that he was being put into grave 15 legal danger by doing so. And I began to feel that he was 16 being sold down the river. And -- 17 Q This was -- are we back now to this 12-2000 thing? 18 A We're moving a little further from there. 19 Q After -- 20 A We're moving into the future -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- from December, 2000. 23 Q What was it that happened in December, 2000? What 24 was the point of that date? 25 A He signed that false affidavit. 0165
1 Q Oh, okay. 2 A And then -- okay, this is into -- now we're -- now 3 we're moving into 2001. Now things are falling apart to 4 such a degree that it's a nightmare. Because now 5 Scientology has started to, you know, depose me and demand 6 documents out of the Lisa McPherson Trust because 7 Scientology has now made the connection between the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust, all the witnesses that are, you know, being 9 paid at the Lisa McPherson Trust, all the people that are on 10 the advisory border -- I mean, that's basically -- 11 Mr. Minton had gathered up all of his Scientology critics 12 that he was helping in one way or another in litigation 13 against Scientology or in whatever other capacity he was 14 funding them, and it was all under the umbrella of the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust. You know, the witnesses for the Lisa 16 McPherson case worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 17 And you know, the two things had just -- well, you 18 know, Judge Beach, one day in a deposition, I almost had a 19 heart attack, he -- you know, we're trying so hard to keep 20 these things apart -- and Judge Beach says, you know, 21 "There's no --" this is Mr. Minton's depo that I was in -- 22 he said, "There's no difference between Mr. Minton and the 23 LMT, the Lisa McPherson case -- it's all the same." 24 And so now they started to be able to -- they 25 started making document demands at the LMT and -- 0166
1 Q They being Scientology? 2 A Scientology. And I started evading discovery and 3 lying about our records, and -- 4 Q Why? 5 A -- and at that point -- 6 Q I mean, why? 7 A Why? 8 Q Why were you lying about your records? I mean, 9 was there anything -- 10 A Because I'll tell you why. 11 Q -- was there anything illegal about LMT? 12 A You know what? I wasn't sure if there was 13 anything in those records that could hurt the case or not. 14 And if there was any possibility that it would hurt the 15 case, we had to not give it to them. And so -- and you 16 know, Mr. Minton was doing everything possible to protect 17 the case; Mr. Dandar was doing everything possible to 18 protect the case; and -- and then I was doing everything 19 possible to protect the case; you know, not turning over, 20 you know -- you've seen all the stuff in the affidavit, you 21 know, the unedited videotape, the hard drives -- you know, I 22 had these hard drives -- well, Mr. Minton and I both -- got 23 these hard drives removed, you know, about a half an hour 24 before the judge ordered that these -- maybe it was you -- 25 Q I don't think it was because I don't remember 0167
1 doing that. 2 A Maybe it was Judge Quesada. But in any case, you 3 know, about half an hour before the judge ordered that 4 nothing could be taken out of the LMT, we're getting the 5 hard drives out of the computers and shipping them off. I 6 mean, you know -- 7 Q But why? I guess I just -- I'm just beside myself 8 trying to figure out why? Was there something illegal about 9 LMT? And I'm talking now about was it doing drugs, was it 10 doing some criminal activity, was there something wrong with 11 it? 12 A No, your Honor. 13 Q It was set up to -- to -- to be what? An 14 anti-Scientology organization? 15 A It was set up to expose the deceptive and abusive 16 processes of Scientology. 17 Q Okay. And then -- so there was nothing illegal 18 about that. 19 A No. 20 Q I mean, that's free speech. It was set up as a 21 for-profit organization, as I remember. If there was an 22 agreement, if there was an agreement that said that, golly, 23 if the aunts of Lisa McPherson got a bundle of money, 24 they'll contribute to this group so that they would have 25 some money, there isn't anything illegal about that, that 0168
1 you knew of? 2 A Right. 3 Q Well, then what in the -- what in the hell were 4 you hiding stuff for? 5 A Because Mr. Dandar was so adamant about not 6 letting Scientology delve into the connection between the 7 LMT and the case. He was so adamant about -- 8 Q Well, you're a smart woman. 9 A Yeah. Well -- 10 Q You sit here today, and I'm listening to you and 11 you're as bright as you can be. You're a smart, bright 12 woman. If he had said that to you, didn't you ever say, 13 "We're crazy and we're not going to lie and put ourselves in 14 jeopardy for your crazy thoughts? I'm not going to do it 15 and Bob's not going to do it." I mean, you know, it's hard 16 for me to envision, ma'am, why you'd lie, destroy things 17 about an entity that's legal. 18 And you must understand that this is 19 extraordinarily frustrating for a court. Why you'd lie 20 about an entity that's, as far as I know, legal, about money 21 that might be coming to it which is legal. I don't know any 22 reason in the world why a smart person like you -- and I 23 have to guess Mr. Minton's a smart man -- would lie, destroy 24 stuff, subject yourself to the -- to the wrath of the court, 25 for what? Mr. Dandar and his -- his supposition that this 0169
1 was going to hurt the case? 2 A Yes, your Honor. 3 Q You believed him? 4 A No. You see, you have to understand. It goes 5 back to the thing that I was telling you about before, which 6 is the state of mind of the fraternity of critics; that, you 7 know -- 8 Q Who -- who is in that fraternity? I mean, the 9 ones that I know of that are connected with this case. 10 Jesse Prince? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q You? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Your ex-husband? 15 A Yeah. Lots of other people. The people -- the 16 people that are named in paragraph -- let me see. 17 Q Can you include Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and 18 Mr. Garko in that, Scientology critics? 19 A Mr. Minton. 20 Q The fraternity? 21 A Mr. Minton. 22 Q Okay. 23 A On paragraph 18. 24 Q Okay. 25 A There's a bunch of people named in there. There's 0170
1 some others that are in the courtroom right now. You know, 2 and these people could feel that right now what I'm doing 3 right now is so treasonous; you know, they are so mad at me 4 for getting up here and telling the truth about this stuff, 5 I can't even begin to tell you. 6 Q Who are they? 7 A Because I have sold out the Lisa McPherson case; I 8 have sold out Ken Dandar, who is the hero of the critic 9 community, because he's the attorney for the Lisa McPherson 10 case. And -- and that is the perspective that this group of 11 people has. We were part of this group of people. And the 12 idea that I would sit there in front of Kendrick Moxon, you 13 know, who is the enemy, and -- and give him our documents 14 out of the Lisa McPherson Trust or that -- you know, that we 15 would actually tell him the truth about what we were 16 doing -- it just wasn't an option. 17 I mean, it just -- it was -- you know, we were 18 part of a very, very, very tightknit group of people with a 19 very, very strong purpose: To destroy Scientology. And it 20 was -- it was a cause. It was a cause. And you know, 21 Mr. Dandar took advantage of that, I feel. And -- and put 22 Mr. -- Mr. Minton and me in a position where we were 23 basically being held hostage to this case. Because he knew 24 we had lied in deposition; he knew that these things had 25 happened. I was begging him to stop asking Mr. Minton for 0171
1 any more money. I was begging him to -- to let us go. He 2 wouldn't do it. Finally in -- finally in August, 2001 -- 3 Q Why didn't you go back to New Hampshire, wherever 4 Mr. Minton is, and say, "See ya, sayonara, bye." 5 A Why didn't he do that? 6 Q Yeah. Why didn't you both do that. 7 A Well, I -- okay. So now, starting August 15th, 8 2001 was when this nightmare started to get really bad for 9 me. Because there was a deposition -- 10 Q Now we're up to August, 2000 -- 11 A Now we're almost done. There was a deposition of 12 me, and it was in Tampa, and I think Mr. Moxon was the 13 attorney. He usually was. And Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 14 Dr. Garko were also in this deposition. And Judge Beach was 15 in the deposition. And this was -- and I had been 16 ordered -- subpoenaed to bring all kind of records. And I 17 appeared in this and I walked into this deposition and I 18 didn't bring anything. I don't think I brought -- maybe I 19 brought some -- you know, something, but nothing substantive 20 at all. And -- 21 Judge Beach sat there in that deposition and told 22 me that if he ordered me to turn over documents and I didn't 23 do it, he was going to put me in jail. 24 Well, I went to the moon. I was so scared. 25 'Cause, you know, it really finally hit me, you know, what 0172
1 kind of -- what kind of situation that we were really 2 putting ourselves in. You know, we were about to go to jail 3 for this case. And -- and even if we did go to jail for the 4 case, it wasn't going to save the case, because it was 5 already so off the rails with all of this stuff that was 6 going on. 7 Q Did you ever, in your smartest -- I mean, as I 8 said, I look at you and I look at you as a -- as a bright 9 woman who is very articulate, who -- who I don't know what 10 your level of education, but you certainly sound like -- did 11 it ever occur to you that once you said -- took the tack 12 that you're taking now, which is boy, this is a bunch of 13 lies, that somebody like me might not be most upset? 14 A You know, your Honor -- 15 Q Or did you think that I'd say, "Well, finally 16 we're all getting to the truth of this" and I'd just be 17 happy as a clam? I mean, did you ever think -- 18 A I thought -- I'll tell you what I thought. I 19 thought that I was in a very, very untenable position. 20 Because now I was faced with a choice. Either I could start 21 telling the truth -- and in my mind, that was going to 22 derail the case. Mr. Dandar was telling Mr. Minton at every 23 opportunity that it would derail the case. Don't tell them 24 about those checks. Don't tell them about the secret 25 agreement. You know, so -- so either we could tell the 0173
1 truth and derail this thing, which was, you know, considered 2 by the critic community to be -- to be the symbol of, you 3 know, truth and justice for Lisa McPherson and against 4 Scientology. 5 And you know -- and you know, by now I was feeling 6 very differently about it. But Mr. Minton was still feeling 7 that way. 8 And -- and so either we could start telling the 9 truth and derail the case or we could go to jail. And from 10 August 15th forward, that's the way I started seeing it. 11 And so I went up to New Hampshire after that 12 deposition, and I asked Mr. Minton if I could please call 13 Dell Liebreich and tell her what was going on. 14 Q When was this, ma'am? 15 A This was later in August. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I think. 18 Q 2001? 19 A 2001. It was after that deposition, because I was 20 so freaked out. 21 And you know, I said, There is no way Dell 22 Liebreich knows that this is going on. If she knew this was 23 going on, she would never allow it to happen. She will drop 24 this case. Because you know, the only way we could get out 25 of it was for -- for the case to get dropped. Otherwise, 0174
1 you know, we were going to go to jail, or the case was going 2 to get derailed and be a mess, or -- you know, the only way 3 it could -- could end cleanly would be to drop it, you know. 4 And so Bob said, you know, "Shoot, they won't drop 5 it," you know, whatever. I said, you know, "You got to let 6 me try." 7 Well, you know, it -- Bob -- Mr. Minton's attitude 8 was, "She already knows everything that's going on and she's 9 not going to drop the case to save me or you." 10 Well, I called her and -- 11 And I had discussed this earlier with Jesse Prince 12 and Teresa Summers, who were -- was another woman who used 13 to work at the LMT. And I told her -- 14 Q "Discussed this." We're talking about -- 15 A The idea of calling Dell -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- and asking her to do this. 18 And -- but in any case, so I called her and -- and 19 I asked her if we could meet. I asked -- actually, I -- I 20 believe I asked her if I could fly to Texas to talk to her. 21 And she said, "Well, will Ken be there?" And I said, "Well, 22 I'd really prefer to talk to you alone." And she said, 23 "Well, okay. Come on then." Or something like that. 24 Q When was this call, do you remember? 25 A This was later in August of 2001. 0175
1 Q After -- sometime in August, but after your 2 deposition? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And then she called me back. I mean, you know, I 6 was so nervous doing this. This was like -- this was so -- 7 I mean, for the critic community, for me to call Dell 8 Liebreich and ask her to drop the wrongful death case was 9 the most horrific thing I could possibly do. And so I was 10 very nervous about this. But I felt like we had to do it, 11 because I was -- you know, by this time I had had many, 12 many, many conversations with Mr. Dandar in which I had told 13 him that it was a terrible thing, what he was doing; that he 14 was continuing this thing at -- at the risk -- and putting 15 Mr. Minton at such a risk. 16 Q Did you ask him to call Ms. Liebreich and drop the 17 case? Did you ask him to drop the case? 18 A Yes. I had talked to him about it. And he 19 said -- you know, "This is -- this is a just and noble thing 20 that we're doing, and this has to continue forward. We have 21 to get justice for Lisa McPherson." And you know, all this 22 pious thing, that, by then, I didn't feel had anything 23 whatsoever to do with his motivation in this case. 24 So I called her and I asked her this. And you 25 know, this was a fairly major threshold that I'd crossed in 0176
1 this whole process. Because at that point, I became 2 deliberately and consciously against this lawsuit. And -- 3 and then she called back and said, "No, no, no. We can't do 4 it. I talked to Ken and, you know, he doesn't want me to 5 talk to you and I don't want to talk to you." And -- and, 6 you know, she was very distraught. 7 Q You didn't ask her to drop -- you had just asked 8 to meet with her alone -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- and she said she could not do that. 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Right. 14 Q Did you tell her why you wanted to meet with her? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I didn't. But later I had a conversation with Ken 18 Dandar, which was that -- you know, "I knew you wanted to 19 talk to her about dropping the case, and I told her not to 20 talk to you about that." And, you know, let me tell you, 21 she knows everything that's going on in this case and -- 22 Q But you're past where we need to go. That's for 23 another time, for another question. 24 A Okay. Sorry. 25 Okay. So then when that happened, then I said, 0177
1 you know, these people -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and 2 Ms. Liebreich do not care what happens to Bob Minton or me. 3 And -- and -- and I said that to Bob Minton. And I said, 4 "You have got -- we have got to distance ourself from this 5 case in every possible way. I've got to tell Jesse to 6 withdraw as an expert witness; you have got to stop giving 7 him any more money. I'm withdrawing as a witness. We have 8 to -- we have to withdraw in every way we possibly can to -- 9 so that the court will stop letting Scientology depose us 10 and get discovery of us." 11 And so -- and so Mr. Minton and I called Jesse 12 Prince and told him that he had to withdraw as an expert 13 witness immediately. That day. And he did. 14 Q This was the same day as you made the phone call 15 to Ms. Liebreich? 16 A The next day. The next day, because I called her 17 at night. And then Mr. Minton and I talked about this into 18 the night, trying to figure out what to do. 19 And it -- you know, it still wasn't an option that 20 we were going to come in to court and start recanting. It 21 just wasn't. 22 It just wasn't. 23 We were going to try to distance ourselves from it 24 so that we could get protection so that it could move 25 forward without hurting us. 0178
1 And so then -- 2 THE COURT: Feel free to step into the 3 question, if you want, but it seems like she's 4 giving a narrative that goes to the issue, so -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Better than I asking questions, 6 your Honor. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Okay. 9 A So then Mr. Dandar decided to file a motion for 10 severe sanctions against Scientology for -- because his 11 expert witnesses had had to withdraw, because he was in such 12 fear of Scientology. 13 Well, so then he has Mr. Prince -- he -- he draws 14 up an affidavit from Mr. Prince which basically summarizes 15 his trial that he had just -- the criminal trial that 16 Mr. Prince had just gone through for drugs. And basically 17 Mr. Dandar did a motion that, you know, described that whole 18 thing and that Scientology was setting up as expert. And so 19 because of that Mr. Prince withdrew in fear of more 20 harassment, stuff like that. 21 Well, Mr. Prince withdrew because Mr. Minton and I 22 told him to. 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. This is all -- she's 24 not competent for anything why Mr. Prince withdrew. 25 THE COURT: Well, she's competent to say what 0179
1 she told Mr. Prince, and then we'll hear from 2 Mr. Prince, I guess. 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q What did you tell Mr. Prince as far as -- 5 A I said, "Jesse, you've got to withdraw it, you've 6 got to resign from this case immediately. You know, you've 7 got to write a letter to Ken telling him that you're 8 withdrawing as an expert witness right away." Well, you 9 know -- okay -- 10 Q And then you said that this affidavit -- did you 11 see the affidavit -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- that Mr. Prince signed? 14 A After he signed it, he brought it in and showed it 15 to me and -- 16 Q When was that? And where? 17 A In my office in the LMT -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A You know, it must have been in September. Because 20 all of these things happened in pretty rapid succession by 21 now. 22 And -- I can't remember what else I was going to 23 say about that, but in any case -- 24 THE COURT: You can stop if you want and you 25 can go on to whatever question you want. 0180
1 The -- I don't want the record to suggest that 2 this witness knows what the motion for severe 3 sanctions is all about. Quite frankly, that's not 4 how I read the motion for severe sanctions. 5 It was because of what Mr. Dandar alleged was 6 wrongdoing on the part of the church as it pertained 7 to Mr. Prince. And my -- my order, which has yet to 8 be signed, that -- because we can't seem to agree on 9 the order because I was, quite frankly, trying to 10 make it fairly to keep the peace -- was because I 11 had found that the church had -- had acted 12 improperly in that criminal episode against 13 Mr. Prince. That's the order regarding severe 14 sanctions that I mean to sign when I can get around 15 it to. 16 That was what they said. As far as Mr. Prince 17 and his -- his reason for not being a witness, I 18 never bought it. Didn't buy it at that hearing, 19 don't buy it to this day. I think that if 20 Mr. Dandar wants to use Mr. Prince as a witness in 21 this case, he'll testify gladly. 22 I've said it before, I'll say it again: If 23 he -- if he can stand the baggage when this case 24 goes to trial -- by that I mean the lawyer -- 25 whoever the lawyer might be for the case, well, I 0181
1 believe, Mr. Prince will be here with bells on. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the significance of it is, 3 as far as I'm concerned, not direct -- 4 THE COURT: That's not important. It certainly 5 isn't important in front of this witness. You can 6 tell me at the close of the case. 7 I just didn't want the record to suggest that 8 whatever this witness thinks about anything is 9 necessarily what it was or what was presented to 10 this court. She wasn't here. She doesn't know. 11 She doesn't know what argument was made. She 12 certainly doesn't know about my order, which hasn't 13 been signed yet. So, you know. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Well, what -- did you direct -- did you and 17 Mr. Minton direct Mr. Prince to no longer be an expert 18 witness for Mr. Dandar? 19 A Yes. We ordered him to resign immediately. 20 Q And was he still being paid by funds from either 21 Mr. Minton or LMT at this point in history? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did he tell you that he had withdrawn as an 24 expert witness? 25 A Yes. 0182
1 Q And did you -- when I say you, LMT or Mr. Minton, 2 continue to pay him? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did until when? 5 A Well, the last time he got paid was a check from 6 me on April 4th of this year. 7 Q And so he had showed -- all you're saying is he 8 showed you an affidavit saying he was withdrawing for a 9 different reason, and you didn't believe -- I take it you 10 didn't believe that reason to be true. 11 A No. That's not what happened. 12 Q Okay. What happened? 13 A He showed me an affidavit which detailed his 14 criminal trial. And the thing that was upsetting about the 15 affidavit was that all through his criminal trial he'd never 16 admitted to drug use, but now with Mr. Dandar having him 17 sign an affidavit in which he admits drug use -- you know, 18 and he didn't get found not guilty in that criminal trial; 19 he got null-prossed. 20 And so Mr. Minton and I had a fit that he'd signed 21 this thing. 22 THE COURT: What happened? Was that a hung 23 jury? 24 THE WITNESS: It was a hung jury. 25 MR. FUGATE: Hung jury. 0183
1 THE COURT: And they elected to drop it. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It was a mistrial. 3 MR. FUGATE: That's what I understand. 4 THE COURT: I'd forgotten. 5 A So, you know, "Really, Jesse, are you nuts? 6 You've just totally exposed yourself to reprosecution on 7 this thing if somebody decides that's what they want to do." 8 And so Jesse had a fit and he's all, "Oh, my God. I didn't 9 realize that. That's terrible. We have to go talk to Denis 10 DeVlaming," you know, and this whole thing. 11 That's what the affidavit was about. It was 12 about, you know, this whole, you know, thing of his drugs. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q But it also said something about his withdrawing 15 because he was fearful of harassment and no longer wanted to 16 be an expert for Mr. Dandar. Did you know that to be the 17 case? 18 MR. LIROT: Leading question, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. FUGATE: Let's move on, Judge, so we can -- 21 THE COURT: Good. Thank you. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Ms. -- 24 THE COURT: The part of the affidavit that 25 Mr. Prince signed that dealt with what -- what 0184
1 Mr. Prince alleged had happened to him in his 2 criminal trial as far as impropriety on the part of 3 the church, is that the part you're saying is false 4 or is what you're saying is false is that part where 5 he stated under oath why he wanted to withdraw as a 6 witness because he was afraid? 7 THE WITNESS: Right. That part. 8 THE COURT: That part? 9 THE WITNESS: That part. 10 THE COURT: The first part, you're not 11 suggesting was false. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q At or about this same time frame that this 17 affidavit by Mr. Prince was signed, had Mr. Minton, to your 18 knowledge, communicated to Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going 19 to fund him anymore? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And did there come a time in that -- I think if 22 I'm correct, where I think we are is August, September of 23 2001 -- did there come a time after that where you know that 24 Mr. Minton gave additional funding to Mr. Dandar? 25 A Yes. 0185
1 Q Can you tell us about that? 2 A Can -- I just want to mention one thing that 3 happened in October with Judge Baird that led up to this. 4 Q All right. 5 A The first time that Mr. Minton started to get that 6 his commitment to the case began to crack, I suppose would 7 be the way to put it, was in October of 2001 when Judge 8 Baird almost put him in jail. And he was evading discovery 9 and trying everything he could think of to keep from having 10 to answer these questions in deposition about these checks 11 and all this stuff. And you know, to the point where at one 12 point he refused to even go to Florida to testify in the 13 deposition. And I went into that hearing -- 14 THE COURT: I really don't think we have to go 15 here. No, you can't go there. You're going to 16 answer his question. Move to your question. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, was there a time -- and this will get to the 20 next question -- was there a time when Mr. Minton took the 21 Fifth Amendment or invoked the Fifth Amendment privilege in 22 some deposition or a deposition? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And was there ever a discussion about the 25 questions that he had invoked the Fifth Amendment on, with 0186
1 Mr. Dandar, that you were present? 2 A Yes. With regard to the checks. 3 Q Can you tell us about that? When and where was 4 it? 5 A We were in New Hampshire. 6 Q And approximately when was it? 7 A As I recall. 8 Sometime in the fall of 2001. Perhaps September. 9 Early October. I don't remember when his deposition was 10 exactly. 11 Q And what was the discussion? 12 A Mr. Minton was saying -- 13 MR. LIROT: Who was the discussion with? 14 THE COURT: Mr. Minton -- 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- 16 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar, I think she -- 17 I'm sorry. Maybe she didn't say. Who was the 18 discussion with? 19 MR. FUGATE: I thought she did, but -- 20 THE COURT: I thought she did. 21 MR. FUGATE: -- who was the discussion with? 22 THE WITNESS: It was with the three of us. I 23 was in the room with Mr. Minton. 24 EXAMINATION 25 0187
1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q And all you said was the Fifth Amendment regarding 3 the checks. I don't know what checks we're talking about? 4 What checks? 5 A There were two checks that Mr. Minton gave to 6 Mr. Dandar. 7 Q The $500,000 check and the 250 -- 8 A I'm sorry, there was one check at that time. 9 Q One check. Okay. 10 A It was the 500,000. 11 Q So I know what check you're talking about now. 12 A Yeah. 13 And you know, Mr. Dandar said, "Just concentrate 14 on the checks you wrote. Just concentrate on the checks you 15 wrote." 16 Well, I understood that to mean and Mr. Minton 17 understood that to mean that -- 18 Q Don't tell us what Mr. Minton understood it to 19 mean. You can tell us what you understood it to mean and 20 anything he may have said, but you can't get inside his 21 head. 22 A Okay. I understood it to mean that he was not to 23 talk about that $500,000 check. So Mr. Minton went into the 24 deposition and pled the Fifth Amendment on those questions 25 and a number of other questions. 0188
1 Q Who told him to do that, if you know? If you 2 know. If you don't know, you don't know. 3 A Well, I believe it was a decision between 4 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Merritt, but I don't know for sure. 5 Q Okay. Well, you seem to be normally around 6 Mr. Minton. 7 A Right. 8 Q Did Mr. Minton get a phone call from someone or -- 9 or what? I mean -- 10 A Well -- 11 Q Were you party to that -- privy to this 12 conversation? 13 A He spoke on the phone with Mr. Dandar and 14 Mr. Merrett. 15 MR. FUGATE: He being Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 About what by now was a pretty serious effort 18 to avoid answering these questions. 19 BY THE COURT: 20 Q Why -- okay. Tell me this: We just talked about 21 how foolish it was to -- I hope you realize now how foolish 22 it was -- 23 A Yes, your Honor, I do. 24 Q -- to try to hide this agreement and try to hide 25 whatever this -- if it was legitimate, if -- if LMT was 0189
1 legitimate -- I don't know if it was or not. You said it 2 was -- but if it was and if there was nothing wrong with the 3 agreement, how silly it was to tell a bunch of lies about 4 that. 5 What's the deal with the checks? What's -- why is 6 somebody going to take the Fifth Amendment over a check? 7 Why is somebody not going to talk about a check? What in 8 Mr. Minton's mind or your mind, when you and he talked, was 9 wrong with that? 10 A With the check? 11 Q Where you lie about it, take the Fifth Amendment. 12 Fifth Amendment says I'm going not going to incriminate 13 myself. What was the problem with him writing a check to 14 Mr. Dandar for $500,000? 15 A Well, in fact, there wasn't anything wrong with 16 it. But Mr. Dandar was trying to downplay -- this is my 17 understanding -- two things -- 18 Q Well, were you there when Mr. Dandar talked to 19 Mr. Minton about it? 20 A Yes. But not -- but this is my understanding -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- this isn't what he said. 23 Q Well, that may -- we better hear what he said. 24 A What he said was, "Just testify about the checks 25 you wrote." 0190
1 Q Okay. Now, I guess what I'm asking you now, then, 2 is, why would anybody think there's something wrong with it? 3 Criminal. Criminal. Fifth Amendment, we think of as 4 somebody saying, "I don't want to incriminate myself." 5 A Well, I can tell you that Mr. Dandar told 6 Mr. Minton that he hadn't told the court about it and so 7 Mr. Minton shouldn't tell the court about it either. He had 8 also -- he also told Mr. Minton that he hadn't told his 9 trial team about this money and that he was telling his 10 trial team that he was using money out of his retirement 11 fund to fund the case and that he didn't want them to know 12 that he was getting this money from Mr. Minton. 13 Q So Mr. Minton was willing to lie to a court of law 14 to keep Mr. Dandar's employees from finding out about a 15 check? 16 A No. No. But -- 17 Q Does Mr. Minton care that little for the truth? 18 A No. No. But again, he was trying to protect 19 Mr. Dandar; he was trying to protect the case. It took 20 quite an enormous amount of pressure being put on him and me 21 for us to make the decision to break with the critic 22 community and come forward and tell the truth. It took an 23 enormous, enormous amount of pressure on us to -- to -- 24 Q Pressure brought on you by whom? 25 A By the courts, by -- by the courts. You know, 0191
1 this is why I was bringing up this thing about Judge Baird 2 in October. Because Mr. Minton was so distraught about the 3 possibility that Judge Baird was going to put him in jail 4 for contempt for all of his discovery abuse that he began to 5 crack about this whole situation. And so that by December, 6 when Mr. Dandar again approached him for more funding and -- 7 you know, really Mr. Minton and I, by that time, were 8 basically staying in his house in New Hampshire and never 9 going out. You know, we were so -- we were in such a state 10 of fear about this situation that we had now gotten 11 ourselves into. 12 And also all of the attacks that were happening 13 from the critics because of Mr. Minton no longer funding the 14 wrongful death case. 15 Q But he was funding the wrongful death case. 16 A No. He had said in -- he had informed Mr. Dandar 17 in August or September that he was no longer going to fund 18 the case. And Mr. Dandar -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Of 2001? 20 THE WITNESS: Of 2001. I'm sorry. 21 A And Mr. Dandar had these people on the Internet 22 that he was having post -- 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. Foundation. 24 A This is my -- this was his belief and my belief. 25 THE COURT: All right. Then I'll sustain. If 0192
1 you don't know that, then you can't -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 A So anyway, Judge Baird -- I mean, it was -- you 4 know, he had to post a $20,000 bond. Sandy Rosen was the 5 attorney who was trying to -- everything he could to get the 6 judge to put him in jail for coercive, whatever, 7 incarceration. And it was only, you know, by the skin of 8 his teeth that he avoided sitting in jail for a week before 9 the deposition went forward. 10 Well -- so then Mr. Dandar in December started 11 calling and, you know, saying, "Look --" 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q December of -- 14 A Of 2001. Just now. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And started saying, you know, "I need more money, 17 you need to help, you've just got to help he me out, this 18 kind of stuff." And I was up in New Hampshire with 19 Mr. Minton, and I was saying, "Don't you dare give him any 20 more money. Don't even think about it. Do not give him 21 another penny." And Mr. Minton was telling Mr. Dandar, you 22 know, "No, I can't do it," whatever. 23 Now we're going into January. Mr. Dandar wants 24 Mr. Minton to meet him. And I know about this because I was 25 there and I heard these conversations. He wants him to meet 0193
1 him in Nashville. He wants him to meet him in the Cayman 2 Islands. You know, "Please, please." He's e-mailing him. 3 He's -- and I saw the e-mails. "Please, you know -- please, 4 you can't let me down. You know, you've got to come through 5 for the case." You know, this kind of thing. All caps, you 6 know. E-mail all caps. 7 And Bob is like, "Oh, God, you know, this is 8 terrible." And I'm saying, you know, "Don't give him any 9 more money. He doesn't care what's going to happen to you. 10 He's only trying to get more money, you know, for his own 11 reasons." And I was totally -- had a break with Mr. Dandar 12 by that time. 13 And so finally, Mr. Minton said, you know, if you 14 want to come up to see me at my house in New Hampshire, you 15 can. And that's when -- 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Did -- did Mr. Dandar come up to New Hampshire? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q When was that? 21 A I think it was the last weekend -- weekend in 22 February, and he brought Dr. Garko with him. 23 Q What happened at that meeting? 24 A The first thing -- pretty much the first thing 25 that happened was Mr. Minton absolutely broke down and got 0194
1 hysterical. He was crying. You know, he was very, very, 2 very distraught about feeling that he couldn't trust -- 3 sorry, it's making me shiver -- that he couldn't trust 4 Mr. Dandar; he couldn't trust Dell Liebreich; he couldn't 5 trust the estate. That he felt like he was being used. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q This is February of 2002? 9 A Yeah. Just now. 10 That he felt that Mr. Dandar had this group of 11 people that were -- that had launched a smear campaign 12 against him on the Internet. 13 Your Honor, you probably don't frequent the 14 Internet very much, but -- 15 Q I'm petrified to even think about looking on one 16 of these here now Internet. I might like to look just to 17 see, but I'm afraid somebody might turn it into something 18 suspicious in this case. So I have never looked. I'd like 19 to. If the lawyers give me permission, I wouldn't mind 20 fishing around and seeing what in the world's out there, but 21 I'm afraid somebody's -- 22 Q You can't even -- 23 Q -- going to make it -- 24 A You couldn't even believe it. You couldn't 25 believe what you'd see. 0195
1 This newsgroup, ARS -- 2 MR. LIROT: Just listening. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Sit down, Counselor. If you've got 5 an objection -- if you don't, sit down. 6 A This newsgroup, alt.religion.scientology, is a 7 place -- it's where Mr. Minton first found out about 8 Scientology. You know, he frequents it all the time. It's, 9 you know, for the critics -- 10 BY THE COURT: 11 Q What is it? 12 A It's a newsgroup. It's sort of like a bulletin 13 board. It's sort of like an electronic bulletin board. 14 People go in there and post messages. And then somebody can 15 go in and post a response to that message and then somebody 16 else can and then somebody else can and then you end up 17 with, you know, sometimes a hundred or more, basically, 18 conversations going on about a subject. 19 And you know, I have asked Mr. Minton, so many 20 times, "Please, stop looking at this stuff." But you know, 21 he's -- he's an Internet person. And you know, all these 22 critics go on this thing and, you know, he wants to see what 23 they're saying. 24 So it's a very good place to go to attack him, if 25 you want to upset him. 0196
1 And so from the time that Mr. Minton informed 2 Mr. Dandar that he was longer in the wrongful death case, 3 that was in September, I think, of 2001, a campaign was 4 launched on this newsgroup that was saying very, very 5 hurtful things about Mr. Minton, about me, about the LMT, 6 you know, about how -- 7 Q Like what? I mean, a lot of money had been given. 8 What was -- what was being said? 9 A You know -- God, you'd have to read these things 10 to believe it. That, you know, Mr. Minton was working for 11 Scientology all along; that he was selling everybody out 12 from the very beginning; that I was an agent for 13 Scientology; that, you know, we were betraying everybody; 14 that the Lisa McPherson case was the most important thing in 15 the world and that we were doing everything we could to 16 destroy the case now. And you know, this may not sound like 17 terrible things to you, but after what Mr. Minton had done 18 for the case, it was very hurtful to him. Particularly to 19 feel that Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar was encouraging -- at 20 least encouraging this. 21 Q But you have no way of knowing that. 22 A Yes, we did. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yes, we did. 25 Q How was that? 0197
1 A Because the people who were writing these things 2 were posting that they were talking to Mr. Dandar. 3 Q What does that mean, posting? I don't understand 4 the Internet. 5 A Posting means you write a thing on your computer 6 and then you punch a button that says "send now" and it gets 7 posted. You know, like if you take a piece of paper and 8 post it on the bulletin board? You send it electronically 9 and it gets posted on this newsgroup. And then once it's 10 posted, everybody else all over the world, they log on -- 11 Q I mean, are they saying -- I guess what I'm asking 12 you is, you said, yes, we do know. Is that -- is that 13 because it was saying that -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- Ken Dandar says -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q Well, these -- these people that were saying these 18 awful things, surely you didn't -- didn't necessarily -- you 19 didn't believe anything else they were saying, why did you 20 believe that? 21 A It wasn't -- 22 Why do we believe that they were talking to Ken 23 Dandar? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A Just from the things that they were writing, it 0198
1 looked like he really was giving them information and giving 2 this one woman permission to start a -- a -- a thing on -- 3 on the Internet to try to raise funds -- 4 Q Did he tell you he was that desperate to get more 5 money? 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Did he tell you he was pretty desperate, that he 8 was running out of money? 9 A Oh, yes. 10 Q And he wasn't going to be able to continue the 11 case without it? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So you really felt he was desperate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I think he really was. 17 So anyway, I was describing this conversation when 18 they came up to New Hampshire. 19 Q So what you had said, I think, is that Mr. Minton 20 broke down. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you said he couldn't trust anybody and -- 23 A No. He said he couldn't trust -- 24 Q -- he couldn't trust Ken and couldn't trust 25 Ms -- trust Ms. Liebreich. 0199
1 A Yeah. And then -- sorry -- and then there were a 2 lot of conversations that were had. I had a very lengthy 3 conversation with Mr. Dandar, just the two of us, about some 4 of the attacks that have happened against me, against 5 Mr. Minton -- 6 Q What attack? I mean, I don't know what -- I don't 7 know what you're talking about. 8 A Smear campaign -- 9 Q On the Internet again? 10 A -- whispering campaign. 11 On the Internet and -- within the critic community 12 there, you know, I -- you know, I felt that there had been a 13 fairly concerted effort to drive a wedge between me and 14 other critics of Scientology, you know, sort of basically 15 to -- to isolate us. 16 Q What -- at this point in time -- 17 A From our friends. 18 Q -- you hadn't come forward and recanted. You'd 19 lied for the case. Mr. Minton had provided an inordinate 20 amount of money, more money that I can imagine. I mean, why 21 in the world would -- I mean, why would Mr. Dandar be 22 suggesting anything about this when everything you had done, 23 as you've just testified here, was at his request? And plus 24 a lot of money to boot. 25 A But -- 0200
1 Q I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Why would you 2 think this? 3 A Why would I think what? 4 Q That Mr. Dandar was out trying to drive a edge 5 between the critics and you. 6 A Well, in fact, your Honor, it turned out to be the 7 truth, and he said so at -- in New Hampshire to us. 8 Q Well, why? Was it 'cause there was not enough -- 9 more money? 10 A Because he was trying to put -- I mean, this is my 11 belief. That -- 12 Q What did he say? 13 A -- he was trying to put pressure on Bob to 14 continue funding the case, and that he knew how important it 15 was to Bob to be well thought of in the critic community. 16 And he knew how bad it would make Bob feel that the whole 17 critic community was turning against him because he was 18 stopping the funding. 19 Q So in your mind the whole thing then, this whole 20 thing being done by Mr. Dandar, was wrapped around money -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- it wasn't as if you haven't -- you, Mr. Minton, 23 hadn't done plenty to help -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- to the tune of lying for him, as your testimony 0201
1 is, to the tune of giving a whole slew of money. So you 2 think all this happened because Mr. Dandar, gee, he'd only 3 had 1.8 million at that time? 4 MR. FUGATE: I think it's 1.8-50 -- 5 THE COURT: -- 8-something. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q And he needed more. 9 A That's right. 10 So Mr. Dandar said, "Listen, I will get them to 11 stop this" -- 12 Q Who is -- who is they? I'll get them? 13 A These people that he had~-- 14 Q The Internet people. 15 A Yeah, the Internet people -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- that were posting this stuff. And he said, 18 "I'll get them to stop." I mean -- and in fact, later he 19 called -- he called to speak to Mr. Minton, but he was 20 asleep and I spoke to him. And he called to say, "Listen, 21 these people, the people that were doing all this posting 22 and everything, said that they'll stop doing it if you guys 23 will take a certain thing off of our Web site." You know 24 what a Web site is? 25 Q Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know if I do or not, but -- 0202
1 A Well, it's just a place where people can go to get 2 information. 3 Q Right. What is "our Web site," though? 4 A The LMT Web site. 5 Q Okay. 6 A The LMT Web site. "If you guys will take this 7 stuff off of your Web site that they don't like." Well, I 8 wasn't sure that Mr. Minton would agree to do that, if I 9 asked him, so I made a unilateral decision to take it off -- 10 to have it taken off myself without asking him that. 11 We had it taken off and -- you couldn't believe 12 how instantly the criticism and the attacks stopped on the 13 Internet. 14 Q What Web site is this? The LMT Web site? 15 A We took some information off of our LMT Web 16 site -- 17 Q What information? 18 A It was some little snippets of this movie, The 19 Profit -- I don't know. 20 Q You mean you could actually watch some little 21 snippets? 22 A Like a minute. I think there were five one-minute 23 snippets of the movie. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And these people were really mad about those 0203
1 snippets being up on the Web site. 2 Q Why? These are -- I don't even know who's who. 3 Are these the anti-Scientologists -- 4 A Yeah. 5 Q -- or the pro-Scientologists? 6 A The anti-Scientologists. 7 Q The anti-Scientologists. 8 A Listen, your Honor, the anti-Scientologists have 9 been angrier at us and more threatening at us and more 10 intimidating of us than Scientology ever even thought of 11 being. I'm not kidding. That's how we feel. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So you know, if we -- 14 Q There are those, you know, that might say the same 15 thing about Mr. Minton? 16 A About what? 17 Q About Mr. Minton. That he might -- that the -- he 18 was part of this antigroup, right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q They may say that he was just as dangerous anti as 21 the Scientologists were pro. 22 A You know, your Honor, the way I look at it now is, 23 this is -- you know, people have turned this whole thing 24 into a holy war, and both sides, you know, are dug in to 25 their perspective. And you know, what's needed in this 0204
1 whole thing is dialogue. That's how I feel about it. 2 Q Maybe what's needed is resolution. 3 A Resolution would be wonderful. But dialogue could 4 perhaps start that path. 5 In any case, at the end of that -- at tend of that 6 weekend Mr. Dandar -- when Mr. Minton broke down on 7 Saturday, I think Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko both realized 8 that Mr. Minton was seriously, seriously distraught about 9 the situation. And what Mr. Dandar did was, on Sunday 10 morning before they left, he got out the questions that you 11 had ordered Mr. Minton to answer that he had previously put 12 the Fifth Amendment to. He got out those questions and he 13 started coaching Mr. Minton on how to answer the questions. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A And this was in my presence. I saw this myself. 18 He was coaching Mr. Minton to answer the questions 19 untruthfully. 20 Q Like what? Which ones? 21 A Well, this is where this fat man thing came up. 22 For example -- 23 (There was an interruption in the proceedings.) 24 THE COURT: I'm not going to have it. 25 Mr. Bailiff, you go out there and you find out if 0205
1 anybody else has got a phone on. Talk to them one 2 at a time. Next person whose phone goes off in this 3 courtroom is going to be barred permanently. I'm 4 not going to have it. If you've got a cell phone 5 out there, turn it off. 6 Go on ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: What was I saying? 8 MR. FUGATE: I don't even remember. That was 9 sort of an interesting tune. 10 I think you were talking about -- 11 THE COURT: It was, and that's why -- it's very 12 disconcerting, because out of the clear blue you 13 start thinking da-da, da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da. 14 MR. FUGATE: She was talking about -- I know 15 what she was talking about. She was talking 16 about -- 17 You were talking about Mr. Dandar -- 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, coaching. 19 MR. FUGATE: Going through the questions. 20 THE WITNESS: The coaching. Oh, yeah. And you 21 wanted to know an example. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: And I said, "This is where the 24 fat man came up." 25 THE COURT: Right. The fat man came up. 0206
1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q I only care about coaching, I suppose, on issues 3 that have been brought to my attention that may be relevant 4 to what I'm doing. That would be as to the money and as to 5 the agreement and as to -- I don't know, you can -- I know 6 the money and the agreement. If there's something else, you 7 can raise it. 8 A The money. 9 Q The money meaning the two checks, that there was 10 nothing wrong with it. 11 A There were -- 12 Q At that time was there two checks? 13 A Well, there weren't two checks yet. There 14 weren't -- 15 Q Okay. One check. 16 A -- two checks until a couple days later. But 17 there was -- there were questions that were going to that 18 issue, and then there were also questions that were going to 19 the issue of funds to the LMT. 20 Q Okay. Let's talk about the check. And you said 21 he told him how to handle it. What did he tell him to say? 22 A Well, he said, "You only have to concern yourself 23 with the checks you've written, Bob. You know, what's the 24 problem here? You only have to concern yourself with the 25 checks you've written." 0207
1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q What did you understand that to mean? 5 A Don't talk about that other $500,000 check because 6 you didn't write it. You didn't actually write the check. 7 Q And what did you understand "you didn't actually 8 write it" to mean? 9 THE COURT: I've never had this kind of money. 10 How does one get somebody to send $500,000 without 11 the -- 12 THE WITNESS: It was a bank -- it was a bank 13 check. 14 THE COURT: Well, you just pick up the phone, 15 call your bank, say, "Send $500,00"0? Is that how 16 it works? I don't know. I'm not rich. 17 THE WITNESS: It seems -- it seems to be 18 something like that. 19 THE COURT: Really? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q So in -- 23 THE COURT: How do they know it's the right 24 person on the telephone? 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's a little more than that. 0208
1 THE COURT: I would hope so. Otherwise give me 2 the number. 3 MR. FUGATE: I can't help you 'cause -- 4 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q So he said, "You only have to concern yourself 8 with the checks you've written"? 9 A Yes, your honor. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And there was another thing about the fat man, but 12 that doesn't concern that particular check, so -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A In any case, it was my understanding that 15 Mr. Dandar now understood how distraught Mr. Minton was 16 about having to -- about putting himself in danger by 17 perjury, and that Mr. Dandar was now helping him ease his 18 concerns by helping him -- by coaching him about how to 19 answer the questions so that he wouldn't be caught, I guess. 20 So then they left -- 21 Q They being? 22 A Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko. And I said, "Don't even 23 think the thought of giving him any more money. I hope 24 you're not." And Mr. Minton said, "Well, you know, I just 25 kind of feel like I'm in so deep now that it's really not 0209
1 going to make any difference at this point." 2 Because you know, Mr. Dandar had really, really 3 begged him to give him enough money to get him through the 4 trial. And he had really appealed to Mr. Minton's 5 commitment to this case; commitment to, you know, his 6 anti-Scientology work. You know, "you've come this far, you 7 know, don't -- you know, please help me, you know, get this 8 thing through to the end." You know, that kind of thing. 9 And so, you know, Mr. Dandar made several phone 10 calls to Mr. Minton; you know, "Have you written it? Is it 11 coming?" I found out from Mr. Minton that he had, in fact, 12 written another check -- I mean -- I'm sorry -- not written 13 another check, but caused another check to be issued. 14 Q One of those magical phone calls? 15 A One of those phone calls. 16 Q Right. 17 A You know, I don't have -- 18 Q That none of us knows how to do. 19 A But -- but -- 20 Q I mean, I know this is true, this is how it 21 happens, I just don't really -- we'll ask Mr. Minton when he 22 comes in. I mean, there must be a code or something. I 23 mean, it's late in the day. There's just got to be a code. 24 Just got to be able to call and give a number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: He'd probably like to tell you 0210
1 that off the record. 2 THE COURT: I wasn't going to ask him that, but 3 there's got to be some things that one goes through. 4 Go ahead. I'm sorry. We'll probably stop at 5 the end of your case 'cause I just really have a 6 huge headache. 7 So if you could -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm -- 9 THE COURT: Not you, him. He's -- if you could 10 get done with the direct -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to shut up, Judge -- 12 THE COURT: -- of the witness that we were 13 going to finish today. 14 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 15 A So he sent the check. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q All right. And was there any more discussion, to 19 your knowledge, about that check to Mr. Minton -- to your 20 knowledge, with Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about whether that 21 should be reviewed -- that check? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And what was that? 24 A Well, then -- I mean, you know, this was the 25 beginning of March, and meanwhile, you remember that I'm 0211
1 having Mr. Howie call and initiate settlement talks with 2 Scientology. So now -- 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 Q You're trying to negotiate a settlement with 6 Scientology. In the meantime -- 7 A And meanwhile, Mr. Minton is continuing -- 8 Q -- putting out a quarter of a million bucks -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- to try to help -- 11 A I'm saying, "Jeesh, don't --" 12 Q Tough to negotiate a settlement like that. 13 A Don't -- how are we going to settle it if you're 14 continuing to fund the case? Exactly. 15 And so Mr. Minton is being a little bit sheepish 16 about that. And then we get word from Mr. Howie that, you 17 know, these two contempt hearings are going forward in -- 18 you know, in the beginning of April, in which Mr. Minton is 19 going to be put in jail for contempt either by Judge 20 Schaeffer or by Judge Baird. 21 Q Or both. 22 A Or by both. 23 And so -- 24 Q Would it please you to know that I've never put 25 anybody in jail for contempt in 21 years? 0212
1 A You haven't? Because your Honor, you said on the 2 record one time that you'd be perfectly happy to put 3 somebody in jail for six years -- 4 Q Well, I don't know if I said for six years, but I 5 have always said that, and that's what I use to get results, 6 but -- 7 A I'll tell you something. We believed you. And 8 that was a lot of the reason why -- 9 Q The maximum time that anybody can be put in jail 10 for criminal contempt is five months and 29 days. 11 A Is that right? 12 Q That is right. So that is the maximum sentence, 13 okay. So if anybody ever told you differently, that's it. 14 A Well, I -- 15 Q And I guess I did put one defendant in jail once 16 for that amount of time. I couldn't even remember what it 17 was. He started swearing at me in court. And we had -- he 18 was on the floor, swearing at me. He called me every rotten 19 name in the book. And finally called me a woman. I mean, 20 that was the -- bailiff arrest him -- he was calling F -- 21 all in all I figured I had to do something. I didn't know 22 what it was because I'd never used this contempt power that 23 I had. And I did it very poorly, I might add. But I tried 24 to get a contempt hearing going so that the next several 25 people appearing wouldn't think that was good procedure. 0213
1 I threaten a lot. I've never held anybody in 2 contempt except him. 3 A Well, we believed you. 4 Q I don't hesitate -- I wouldn't hesitate to use it. 5 I mean, I'm sure your lawyer or somebody said I'm not happy 6 with the fact that you and Mr. Minton have admitted that you 7 committed perjury. I'm sitting here today, you know? I'm 8 sitting here today, it's quarter to 6 on a Friday afternoon, 9 trying to buy a new house. I'm absolutely beat. I'm 10 sitting up nights reading this that you see. And I'm not 11 saying that it's just you all. But certainly I know it's 12 you all because you said it is. 13 Now, you know, I don't know what you thought 14 before, but I mean, we're going to have to come to some -- 15 some day there's going to be a day of reckoning. I'm not 16 saying I'm going to put you in jail. Please don't think I'm 17 threatening you. Wouldn't do that to you. But you just 18 don't get to commit perjury in any judge's court. Say 19 you've committed perjury and then expect the judge to say, 20 "Well, thanks a lot for coming in." 21 I mean, do you understand what's going on here? 22 What you've caused, helped to cause? And I'm not saying 23 it's just you. Do you understand that you've created some 24 chaos here? 25 A Your Honor, I understand it very well. 0214
1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's try to get through the 2 direct, if we can. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't mean to be 5 threatening. Now that you know I've never held 6 anybody in contempt in 21 years. I used to teach 7 it. I used to have a wonderful time teaching it to 8 new judges. And I'd always tell them, "Don't do 9 it." If you have to hold somebody in contempt you 10 don't have control of your courtroom. So you know, 11 I thought I had pretty good control of my courtroom 12 so I didn't have to use it. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q My question was -- 16 THE COURT: Don't be afraid just because you've 17 heard from somebody that I said that. I mean, as I 18 said, I'm very frustrated. I'm very frustrated that 19 we're -- we're having to go through this. We're 20 going to go through it Monday. We're going to go 21 through it Tuesday. And I've got a couple motions 22 they want me to hear about the issues in the case. 23 And I'm having to deal with all this. 24 So it is frustrating and -- 25 THE WITNESS: At best. At best. 0215
1 THE COURT: All right. If I were you, I would 2 never do it again. 3 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I promise I never 4 will. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q All right. My question was, was there any other 7 discussion, to your knowledge, between Mr. Minton, 8 Mr. Dandar about whether or not to reveal the last $250,000 9 payment or check? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. And what was that? 12 A Mr. Minton had by now gotten in touch with his 13 counsel, not only in Florida but also in Boston. And he was 14 now aware that he was going to have to tell the truth about 15 these checks. 16 Q And the "he" is -- 17 A Mr. Minton. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And he told Mr. Dandar that -- 20 Q He, Mr. Minton? 21 A -- in a phone conversation. 22 Q He, Mr. Minton, told -- 23 A Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that he was going to 24 have to tell the truth about the checks. And Mr. Dandar got 25 very distraught about that. And said, "Bob, you know, you 0216
1 only have to testify about the checks you've written. You 2 don't have to bring that up." 3 THE COURT: When was this, ma'am, again? 4 THE WITNESS: Sometime in mid-March. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Of 2002? 7 A Yeah. And then we -- Mr. Minton and I had a 8 meeting in New York with Sandy Rosen, Mike Rinder and 9 Monique Yingling, who's another attorney for Scientology. 10 And we sat down with them, with Mr. Minton's Boston counsel, 11 Steve Jonas. 12 Q Steve -- 13 A Steven Jonas. 14 THE COURT: Boss? Did you say boss? 15 THE WITNESS: Boston. 16 THE COURT: Oh, Boston. 17 A Boston. 18 And Mr. Minton and I went into this meeting with 19 every intention of settling with Scientology and getting out 20 of this litigation altogether, in whatever way -- well, not 21 in whatever way, but by severing all ties. And we sat down 22 and we told them that -- 23 THE COURT: This is going to go on for a long 24 time, isn't it? 25 THE WITNESS: No. He's almost over. It's like 0217
1 another two sentences, if you want me to hurry. 2 THE COURT: Oh. Are we on your affidavits, you 3 mean? 4 THE WITNESS: No. We're on the settlement 5 talks. 6 THE COURT: Oh. 7 THE WITNESS: And I'll make it fast. 8 THE COURT: I'm talking about your direct 9 testimony. I'd like to get through the direct. How 10 much longer is it? 11 MR. FUGATE: If she said two sentences, I'm 12 guessing two sentences, Judge. 13 THE COURT: I'm guessing two hours. Go on 14 ahead. 15 MR. FUGATE: I didn't say how long they were 16 going to be. 17 THE COURT: I know. 18 A Anyway, we told them that we wanted to walk away; 19 that we wanted -- Mr. Minton was going to stop funding; that 20 I was going to stop providing any declarations; that I would 21 withdraw my declarations that I already filed; that we 22 didn't want anything more to do with Scientology litigation 23 anymore and to please just let us walk away. 24 Well, much to our horror, what they said was 25 that -- 0218
1 THE COURT: Who's they? Tell us -- let's say 2 who said what. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Rosen. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen. 5 A Mr. Rosen said that they would be more than happy 6 to sit down with us and talk settlement once we set the 7 record straight in the Florida cases. And we said, "What do 8 you mean?" And he said, "Well, we have reason to believe 9 that you have not been forthcoming in your testimony in 10 discovery in those cases. And before we'll talk to you 11 about settlement in any way, you're going to have to set 12 those records straight." 13 And that night Mr. Minton and I called Mr. Dandar 14 and -- 15 THE COURT: Do you remember what date this was? 16 THE WITNESS: I think it was -- 17 THE COURT: Day? 18 THE WITNESS: Maybe it was March 28th. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Are we still in the dep- -- 20 am I -- am I -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I think you've gone beyond now. I 22 think she's talking about why she -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 A And -- no. 'Cause I'm telling you about another 25 conversation that happened about the checks. 0219
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Actually, I did ask that, so -- 3 A Yeah. 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY THE COURT: 6 Q So you called Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar -- 7 A Mr. Dandar. 8 Q On March 28th. 9 A On March 28th, and told him that -- and Mr. Minton 10 told him that he was going to have to start telling the 11 truth about what had been going on. And -- 12 Q He, meaning Mr. Minton, told he, Mr. Dandar -- 13 A Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar -- 14 Q -- was going to have to start telling the truth. 15 A No. No. Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that 16 Mr. Minton was going to have to start telling the truth. 17 Q I got you. 18 A And you know, it was sort of warning him, you 19 know, sort of letting him know that this was happening. 20 And -- and we had a little bit more of a 21 conversation on that night, but basically we ended it that 22 night by Mr. Dandar saying, "Look, let's get together in 23 Cleveland. I have to go to Cleveland for a heart --" 24 Q -- checkup. 25 A "Checkup. And let's meet there --" 0220
1 Q I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just 2 trying to -- 3 A Yeah. Checkup. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Well, next night -- so then the next day we went 6 into the settlement talks again and -- and we said, "Listen, 7 you know, we'll get started on setting the record straight, 8 but we want you to put back -- push back these two contempt 9 hearings that are just about to come up next week." 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Continue the contempt hearings? 13 A We want you to continue those contempt hearings so 14 that, you know, Mr. Minton doesn't have that hanging over 15 his head while we're trying to sort this out. 16 Well, Mr. Rosen said, "We're not stopping 17 anything. You know, those things are going to go forward as 18 scheduled. You know, we'll be glad to arrange for -- you 19 know, to pick back up on the settlement talks when you've 20 set the record straight. But you know, you'll have an 21 opportunity to do that in these hearings down in Florida or, 22 you know, however you want to do it. But we aren't 23 continuing with the settlement talks until that happens and 24 we're not putting off anything." 25 Well, then we were really, really upset. And then 0221
1 that night we called Mr. Dandar again. And that was the 2 famous phone conversation where Mr. Minton said, you know, 3 "You're going to have the blood of -- my blood and the blood 4 of my family on your hands if you -- if you won't agree to 5 drop this case." 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Why was he asking him to drop the case? Was that 9 a demand made by Mr. Rosen? 10 A No. No. 11 Q Where did it come from? Where did Mr. Minton pick 12 this up? 13 A Well, it was because that was the only way we 14 could think of to save the case from having what's now 15 happening happen. Where all this -- you know, he and I are 16 both having to recant testimony. You know, the critic 17 community is in an uproar. We're in all this trouble. And 18 you know, we were trying to shortcut, shortcircuit the whole 19 process by just getting him to drop the case. You know, 20 hoping to avoid having to testify that Mr. Dandar had 21 encouraged us to commit perjury. 22 And you know, all these different things that were 23 going on in our mind, we thought that Mr. Dandar would be 24 more -- would rather have that, have the -- you know, have 25 the case dropped than go through all this. 0222
1 Q So what was it that -- 2 A That's what we thought. 3 Q I don't know. I've read this somewhere. I've 4 read so much I don't remember. But somebody says under 5 oath, or maybe not under oath, that the request to have the 6 case dropped came from the Scientologists. If you want 7 to -- us to discuss this, you're going to have to get the 8 case dropped. This case, dropped. 9 Are you suggesting that was never said? Was it 10 just something that you and Mr. Minton came up with? 11 A Well, I've been trying to get them to drop the 12 case since the summer before, your Honor. 13 Q Well, when you met with the Scientologists -- 14 whoever, Mr. Rosen and Mr. who? 15 A Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 16 Q And Ms. -- is it a Ms.? It's a woman, 17 Ms. Yingling. 18 A It's a woman, yes. 19 Q Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen -- did they tell you 20 before they would settle the case you had to get this case 21 dropped? Before they would settle with you, whatever it was 22 that was, you had to get this case dropped. 23 A No, your Honor. What they said was, "You -- you 24 have to set the record straight in this case. We have 25 reason to believe that if the truth really comes out in this 0223
1 case, that this case will -- that the judge will probably 2 throw it out. We have reason to believe --" you know, 3 basically it was like that. "We have reason to believe that 4 there's been so much -- God -- you know, whatever, bad -- so 5 much bad stuff that's happened in the case that that may 6 well be the result it." 7 Q Okay. So you called Mr. Dandar that night and 8 asked him to drought drop the case. 9 A Yes. 10 Q That was March the 30th, I take it? 11 A That was March the 29th. 12 Q Oh, okay, March the 29th. Right. Okay. 13 A And you know, he got very upset. He said, 14 "There's no way. You know, this case is too important. I 15 can't believe you're saying these things. You know, I can't 16 believe you would do that --" 17 Q Did he know you were meeting with Mr. Rosen and 18 Mr. Rinder? I mean, had you all told him that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I believe so. 22 Oh, oh, yeah. And you're -- you know, they're 23 threatening you. They've got something on you. You know, 24 this is when this all started. 25 And you know, Bob was very upset. I was very 0224
1 upset. Mr. Dandar was very upset. Everybody was very 2 upset. And so then -- and I'm sorry this is -- I'm going to 3 do this as fast as I can. 4 But your hearing then happened the next Friday, 5 where Mr. Minton was on trial for contempt, for criminal 6 contempt. And that was the hearing when Mr. Moxon was going 7 through, you know, this -- this history of -- of discovery 8 with Mr. Minton. And you know, I'm sitting there in the 9 courtroom and I'm listening to all this. 10 And then he gets to this one -- I can't remember 11 what the affidavit was about -- but you know, it was the one 12 that just didn't match anything else that Mr. Minton had 13 said. You might remember that. And I thought, oh, you 14 know, she's going to find him guilty. 15 And then Mr. Howie got up and he did this judgment 16 of acquittal argument and found this technicality. And you 17 had to throw it out and find him not guilty on a 18 technicality. 19 Q I didn't have to throw it out. I threw it out 20 because he didn't -- Mr. Moxon didn't meet the -- didn't 21 make it stick. 22 A Right. 23 Q In other words, it was -- there was a technical 24 error. And by law, he was not guilty. 25 A Right. But -- 0225
1 Q A judgment -- 2 A But -- 3 Q -- of acquittal. It had to be. 4 A But as far as we were concerned, it was a miracle. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Because if that technicality hadn't happened, he'd 7 be in jail. You tell me now you don't put people in jail, 8 but -- 9 Q No. I never have. I was not happy with 10 Mr. Minton. 11 A Well, we believed with all our heart that you 12 would have put him in jail. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And we -- and at that point, after that hearing 15 before you, and you admonished him that you -- he was -- I 16 don't think you said this exactly, but what you meant was, 17 "You got away with it this time, but you better not try it 18 again." That's what I heard. 19 Q Sounds like me. 20 A Yeah. And that's what Mr. Minton heard too. And 21 so the next day we went over to Wally Pope's office, and we 22 spoke to Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. And we told them that 23 we were ready to start the process of correcting the record. 24 And there came a point during that afternoon where 25 Mr. Minton was ready to start telling them what had really 0226
1 been going on and he started to gag, and he went outside and 2 he was really sick at the thought of doing this. But you 3 know, I said, "This is our only hope. It's our only hope. 4 We have to do this and we have to trust them." 5 You know, because -- you know, here we are, now 6 we're talking to Scientology, you know, these people that we 7 have been fighting for so long, that -- you know, or these 8 horrible, evil people. And you know, now we're -- we're 9 going in there and now we're going to start telling them the 10 truth about what's been going on. I mean, it was like -- 11 you know, it was -- it was just almost unbearable. And -- 12 Q Well, we've already established that what you were 13 going to tell them the truth about were two things that were 14 fairly insignificant except for the fact that Mr. Dandar was 15 a part of it. You were going to tell them about an 16 agreement that was perfectly all right. You were going to 17 tell them about a -- some checks that were perfectly all 18 right. 19 A Well, it may seem that simple to you now, but to 20 us at that time, what we were about to do was change sides, 21 totally turn our backs on all the people that we had been 22 working with so hard, admit to perjury, admit to discovery 23 abuse. I mean, pretty serious discovery abuse. And we 24 were -- we really had no idea what was going to happen to 25 us. But we didn't feel that there was any other choice that 0227
1 we had. 2 And I wish I could tell you that, you know, I woke 3 up one morning and I thought, I have to tell the truth 4 because it's the right thing to do. But really what 5 happened was that Saturday -- 6 Q That would have been March 30th? 7 A No. That was after the day after your hearing, so 8 it was April 6th. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Really what happened was that Saturday we went 11 outside in the front parking lot of Wally Pope's office and 12 said, "We have no choice but to recant our testimony and put 13 ourselves on the mercy of these courts." 14 And that's what happened. 15 MR. FUGATE: I have no more questions. 16 THE COURT: All right. Seems like a good time 17 to take our break. Now, look, this is an awfully 18 long weekend. I am going to permit you, ma'am -- 19 you're still on the stand. Cross examination will 20 come on Monday. I'm going to treat this like I 21 would treat something and I'm going to let you talk 22 to your lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: But I am not going to let you -- 25 you are on the stand. You cannot talk to anybody 0228
1 else. Now I understand how tough that might be, but 2 clearly, obviously, that means Mr. Minton, he's a 3 witness, the rule's been invoked -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: And you can't talk to any of these 6 people. You can't talk to any of those people. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay? But I'm not going to 9 preclude her from talking to her lawyer 'cause I 10 think that's -- it's a long weekend and she ought to 11 have somebody she can talk to about what's going on 12 if she needs to. Is that fair? 13 MR. LIROT: To speak with her attorney and no 14 one else. 15 THE COURT: With her attorney. 16 MR. LIROT: That's fair. 17 THE COURT: She can speak to -- you can speak 18 to anybody you want to, but you just can't -- 19 THE WITNESS: But not about this. 20 THE COURT: Not about this. Not about your 21 testimony. Not about what your testimony that's 22 going on, it's going to go on. But you can talk to 23 your lawyer about anything involving this case. Is 24 that okay with you, Counsel? 25 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge, we just as a reminder 0229
1 ask her to comply with all the requests for 2 production and all the documents that were shown to 3 her at those meetings. 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 5 MR. LIROT: Meetings with Scientology. We'd 6 like her to bring those with her on Monday. 7 THE COURT: What? I don't know what you're 8 talking about? 9 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, there was a request 10 to produce that was filed as a request to produce -- 11 THE COURT: In the other case? 12 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Pardon? 14 THE COURT: In the other case or in this case? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: No, in this case. 16 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 17 MR. MCGOWAN: But it's a request to produce, 18 like a 30-day request to produce, that asks for all 19 the documents that admits extortion and blackmail 20 and so forth. 21 THE COURT: I saw that, but I thought that 22 was -- honestly I thought that was in the other 23 case. 24 MR. MCGOWAN: It was in this case. But in 25 either case, it was a 30-day request to produce. 0230
1 THE COURT: Okay. To be honest with you, what 2 does that mean? They've had 30 days to produce it? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: They've had 30 days for these 4 documents that they'll tell you don't exist. 5 THE COURT: Well, look, if you've got them and 6 you can bring them, please don't make me have 7 another hearing, Counsel. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: I won't, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: So she's got a notice to produce 10 and it's going to be something they need for their 11 cross examination and you've got them in hand, 12 forget the 30 days. Give them to her, let her bring 13 them in so that they can talk to her about it. 14 Okay? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Certainly. 16 THE COURT: I don't want to have another 17 hearing after 30 days, and she doesn't either. Fair 18 enough? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: I think no one does, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, if it -- if it please 23 the court, I have another case besides this one, and 24 I have a commitment at 9:00 Monday morning. I'll be 25 out of it by about 10:15. 0231
1 THE COURT: You know what, I think I remember 2 my secretary telling me we didn't start until 1:30 3 on Monday? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Oh, is that right? 5 MR. FUGATE: 1:30 on Monday and then 9:00, if 6 we go, on Tuesday. 7 THE COURT: If we go? Come on, Mr. Fugate. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm just telling you what you said 9 to me, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Yeah. Okay. Who else do you have 11 to call in your case? 12 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: And then at that time you're going 14 to rest? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And then at that time I'm going to 17 hear legal argument from you, is that right? 18 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 19 THE COURT: We might get that far, maybe, by 20 Tuesday. Maybe. I doubt it. But we might. 21 You understand, ma'am, the admonition I've 22 given you? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: If they come in and ask you, "Who 25 have you talked to over the weekend" and you say, 0232
1 "I've talked to Mr. Minton about it and I've talked 2 to Mr. Moxon about it, Mr. Fugate about it," I'm 3 going to be livid, right? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Do the best you can. Don't talk to 6 anybody about your testimony. You're on the stand. 7 THE WITNESS: I promise I won't, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Except him. You can talk to your 9 lawyer. 10 All right. That's it. We'll see you all 1:30 11 Monday. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0233
1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of May, 2002. 12 13 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25