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1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 3 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 21, 2002, morning session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 0184
1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 6 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 7 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 8 MR. LEE FUGATE and 9 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 10 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 11 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 12 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 13 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 14 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 20 APPEARANCES (Continued) 21 ALSO PRESENT: 22 Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector 23 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 24 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 25 Ms. Joyce Earl 0185
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1 THE COURT: Good morning. 2 Okay. As I understand it, we have the rest of 3 this week blocked off for this, right? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 5 THE COURT: And then next week, I've got 6 coverage -- Monday's a holiday; Friday, Sandy has to 7 be somewhere and I've excused him. So I've got 8 coverage now. Monday we -- or Tuesday we had a 9 pretrial or something scheduled. 10 MR. FUGATE: Right. 11 THE COURT: I've got coverage for Wednesday and 12 Thursday for me. So I'm assuming we've got Tuesday, 13 Wednesday, Thursday of this week, and Tuesday, 14 Wednesday, Thursday of next week, and I am hopeful 15 that maybe we'll be done. But at least block those 16 days off and we'll see where we are. 17 MR. DANDAR: Don't we have Friday of this week? 18 THE COURT: Yes. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday 19 and Friday of this week; Tuesday, Wednesday and 20 Thursday of next. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. So should we -- if 22 we're not going to use Tuesday the 28th as a 23 pretrial, should we reschedule that so we make sure 24 we don't lose a date somewhere? 25 THE COURT: As I said, I'm just kind of 0188
1 assuming that we're all blocked off for -- for June. 2 And so -- remember, I said this at the very 3 beginning of the hearing, that we will -- I mean, 4 I've already had another motion to -- for summary 5 judgment on -- on a totally different count filed; 6 I've got a motion to exclude net accumulations 7 filed. All those motions will need to be heard. 8 And we've got the time, and I've got senior judge 9 coverage during the time that I was supposed to be 10 in trial. And -- but I just want to deal with these 11 next two -- I want to get this done and then we'll 12 see what we've got left to do. 13 MR. DANDAR: I did contact John Merrett, and he 14 said he will make himself available in person in 15 this court tomorrow at 2:00. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. DANDAR: And I have an order, if you still 18 need to sign that, on John Merrett. And I also 19 would like to show the court a proposed protective 20 order on financial information that you told me to 21 prepare. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: The other side has the copy of 24 both of those. 25 THE COURT: Is there any reason why we can't 0189
1 accommodate Mr. Merrett tomorrow at 2? 2 MR. FUGATE: Well, I guess it depends on where 3 we are. The court would then want to just stop 4 where we were, to talk -- 5 THE COURT: I mean, this is a lawyer who I 6 presume has a schedule, who is available at this 7 point in time. I would like to hear from him. So I 8 think we can do that for a member of the Florida 9 Bar. 10 MR. FUGATE: Right. 11 Judge -- 12 Oh, I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: So -- 14 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, this is the protective 15 order? 16 THE COURT: This is the order compelling the 17 appearance of John Merrett. 18 MR. MOXON: Oh, okay. 19 THE COURT: Tomorrow is what day? 20 MR. DANDAR: 22nd. And today the 21st. Should 21 be. Yeah. 22 THE COURT: You've got attached service list. 23 I assume you're going to give this to everybody? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'll make copies right now. 25 THE COURT: And I'm going to put -- I'm going 0190
1 to put in here at 2:00 p.m -- 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: -- since that's what we said. 4 MR. DANDAR: I'll give it to all counsel -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: -- as we speak. 7 THE COURT: Okay. The other thing is the 8 protective order. 9 Okay. 10 MR. MOXON: I think it might be, one, 11 premature, your Honor, because I don't know what 12 else is going to shake out on this as to 13 Mr. Dandar's testimony. As per the discussion with 14 Mr. Dandar on Friday, I know he waived part of it, 15 at least with respect to some information Mr. Minton 16 has already provided. And as the court indicated, 17 the horse is already out of the barn with the 18 financial -- with the funds that Mr. Minton has 19 already provided to Mr. Dandar. And this is also 20 very broad in that he's asking this court to order 21 every other case -- that any information that's been 22 provided to the estate in any other case is 23 prohibited by this court. 24 So certainly we can enter an order in this 25 case, but I don't know how Mr. Dandar can ask you to 0191
1 order every other judge or something -- 2 THE COURT: He can ask me to order it, but I 3 don't suspect any other judge would pay much 4 attention to it. 5 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 6 MR. DANDAR: But that's what you said to do, 7 Judge. You told me to carry it in my hip pocket. 8 MR. MOXON: I also -- I also noted something 9 last night -- and I unfortunately don't have the 10 transcript of this -- 11 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me read this 12 again. 13 Well, I can see one thing that I -- this 14 decision is a decision of the district court. So I 15 can see in paragraph 2, discovery of financial 16 resources and expenditures of the estate -- I think 17 I would change that, since this information has been 18 determined by the Second District Court of Appeal to 19 not be reasonably calculated to lead to admissible 20 evidence, so let me make that change right now. 21 MR. DANDAR: Why don't you -- 22 MR. MOXON: Your Honor -- 23 MR. DANDAR: -- do whatever you do, and I'll 24 just retype it right now. 25 MR. MOXON: Yeah. Can we address this at the 0192
1 break? We'd like to take a look at this, and I'd 2 like to get a copy of this transcript where 3 Mr. Dandar was asking a number of these questions to 4 Ms. Liebreich, during his examination of 5 Ms. Liebreich, during her deposition a couple weeks 6 ago, and a discussion of whether or not there was a 7 waiver. And in fact there was a waiver found as to 8 part of it. So if we can hold this in abeyance 9 until noon -- 10 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that I really 11 found a waiver. I think what I said was this was at 12 issue, and if he wanted to not have any information 13 discussed, well, then I would grant that, because 14 the Second District has said it's not relevant. 15 However, in light of the fact that this motion has 16 been brought, I said, as to that part of it, if he 17 wanted to allow this discussion to go on, that I 18 still would not -- in other words, I -- I still am 19 going to honor what the Second District said, which 20 is, it's irrelevant. So therefore, as to any 21 discussion you might have of any perjury, you're 22 going to have to concern yourself with the fact that 23 the Second District has said it's irrelevant. 24 Therefore, it could not have been perjury. It's got 25 to be material. So that's what I was discussing. 0193
1 In other words, that aspect of this one $500 2 payment -- 3 MR. MOXON: Right. 4 THE COURT: -- it seems to me, is you have put 5 it in issue as to whether or not there was perjury 6 and whether or not there was suborning of perjury 7 regarding this. And I said that, gee, the horse is 8 out of the barn. We might as well make a record 9 here and see -- 10 But that doesn't alter the fact that whatever 11 it was, he said, all right, let's go ahead on that. 12 I have an order from a district court that says that 13 payment is irrelevant. 14 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 15 THE COURT: Perjury is one thing. A lawyer 16 can't request persons to misrepresent things in a 17 deposition. But it's not perjury as long as the DCA 18 says it's irrelevant. See what I'm saying? 19 MR. MOXON: Yeah. Of course. 20 THE COURT: So when he says a waiver, I'm not 21 sure his waiver was quite as much a waiver as you 22 might say. I think he just agreed that for this 23 hearing, let's finish it so we don't have something 24 else taken to the Second District and them say, of 25 course, you have to inquire as to this, this 0194
1 allegation that's been made. 2 MR. MOXON: Yeah. I understand. And we don't 3 have any discovery that's pending. This is a 4 prohibition against further discovery. 5 THE COURT: I mean, for it to be a prohibition 6 against further discovery -- I mean, for you all to 7 shut down that line of inquiry, when you're talking 8 to him, to Ms. Liebreich, or frankly, to anybody 9 else, the Second District has said it's irrelevant, 10 and they have prohibited it. They have quashed the 11 order that says you can do that. 12 So that is my requirement on you all, that at 13 least as to my case, it -- it not be inquired about. 14 MR. MOXON: Okay. 15 THE COURT: And that if you do inquire, I 16 expect him to haul this order out and present it to 17 Judge Beach or anybody else and say, "They can't go 18 there." 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: If I might, Judge, just make 20 two quick points. 21 We will present you with authority that is 22 consistent with what your Honor already said, that 23 the elicitation of false testimony, perjurious -- 24 THE COURT: I don't need to hear this, 25 Counselor. I know that. 0195
1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 2 THE COURT: I mean, that's why I said we ought 3 to go ahead and proceed, and Mr. Dandar said, "Yeah. 4 Let's get it done." 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Okay? 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 8 THE COURT: I'll go ahead and hold this for 9 now. We'll deal with it after lunch. 10 But as I said, make no doubt about it, that is 11 my demand on you all. If you make inquiry of him, I 12 expect him to haul this out and say, "That is in 13 violation of Judge Schaeffer's order." I mean, I 14 think the Second District has, now, three times, 15 made it clear that you all shouldn't be inquiring. 16 I don't want you to inquire. And I'm going to enter 17 an order to that effect. If you do, then I suppose 18 you do so at your peril. 19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just was handed a Robert 20 Minton First Request to Produce to the Plaintiff, 21 asking for copies of all checks the estate or I have 22 ever received and evidence of how we spent the 23 money, and that violates the three decisions of the 24 Second District Court of Appeals since Mr. Minton is 25 now a party to this litigation. 0196
1 MR. HOWIE: May it please the court, if I can 2 file the originals and present copies -- 3 I'm presenting two items. One is Robert 4 Minton's First Request to Produce to the Plaintiff; 5 the other is Robert Minton's Response to Plaintiff's 6 Request to Produce At Hearing and Protective Order. 7 Concerning first the motion -- the first 8 request to produce, this is to bring at issue 9 whether Robert Minton, independently of the 10 defendant in this case, can request the items that 11 are listed in the request to produce, or whether he 12 is subject to the same court order. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I -- somehow that went 14 over my head. This is Mr. Minton's request to 15 produce. 16 MR. HOWIE: That's correct, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. HOWIE: We are requesting -- to categorize 19 it, we are requesting that the plaintiff produce 20 documents that will show not only the payments 21 received by Mr. Minton but the handling of those 22 payments -- 23 THE COURT: Payments received by Mr. Minton. 24 MR. HOWIE: From Mr. Minton -- 25 THE COURT: From Mr. Minton. Okay. 0197
1 MR. HOWIE: -- to -- to either Mr. Dandar or 2 the firm of Dandar and Dandar or the estate of Lisa 3 McPherson, and to request documents concerning where 4 those moneys were deposited and how those moneys 5 were utilized. Essentially all documents necessary 6 to an accounting of the money provided by Mr. Minton 7 to the plaintiff or to the plaintiff's attorney. 8 And we are submitting this for purposes of 9 seeing if the court's order also applies to this or 10 whether we are independent from any order that 11 affects the defendant. 12 THE COURT: Well, I think we'll have to argue 13 that. 14 MR. HOWIE: The other matter that we presented 15 to the court -- and I simply submit it for 16 scrutinization by the court -- the other matter is, 17 late Friday afternoon -- 18 THE COURT: And by the way, I'm not going to 19 require him to respond to this until such time as we 20 do discuss it. I mean, I think it needs some 21 judicial determination, not just starting the time 22 clock running from the time it's filed. 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Until I hear this and until I rule 25 on it, Mr. Dandar does not have to comply. 0198
1 MR. HOWIE: And I have put a compliance date in 2 there of Thursday; admittedly somewhat arbitrary, 3 but gauged to compel the production while Mr. Minton 4 presumably is still on the stand. 5 The other matter I presented to the court is 6 the response to request to produce sent to us by the 7 plaintiff late Friday afternoon by fax. It did not 8 come to my attention until this weekend. They are 9 requesting Mr. Minton to produce a variety of 10 documents -- 11 THE COURT: This is the plaintiff? 12 MR. HOWIE: The plaintiffs. 13 THE COURT: Okay. A request to produce has 14 come to you. 15 MR. HOWIE: Yes. Specifically from Luke Lirot, 16 requesting Mr. Minton to produce certain financial 17 records as outlined in the request to produce. 18 Mr. Minton has been in Atlanta over the weekend. He 19 has not been in his residence. It was just 20 impossible for him to obtain these documents, 21 especially since he was first advised of these on 22 Sunday, two days ago. We are requesting protection 23 from having to produce those at hearing today. 24 Specifically requested he produce them today, 25 May 21st. And so we have incorporated a motion for 0199
1 protective order -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. HOWIE: -- in that. I don't think it's 4 necessary to obtain a ruling right now, if the court 5 wishes to scrutinize that. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't we -- everybody 7 seems to want a little time here. These are just 8 newly filed. So why don't we take these up after 9 lunch? So I've now got Robert Minton's response, 10 which apparently is a motion for protective order; I 11 have Mr. Minton's request to produce, and I have in 12 essence a protective order that I have indicated I 13 will give, and we'll try to work on the wording of 14 that, and I'll hear from counsel. All those, we'll 15 take up after the lunch break so everybody can take 16 a look at them. 17 MR. HOWIE: And so the record is clear, 18 Mr. Minton is raising Fifth Amendment privileges to 19 certain -- 20 THE COURT: Well, okay. We'll need to know 21 about that, because you don't need a protective 22 order if he's claiming the Fifth Amendment. So I 23 want to know what he's claiming the Fifth Amendment 24 to, and then I'll deal with the rest of it, okay? 25 MR. HOWIE: Okay. 0200
1 THE COURT: And you know, frankly, I don't have 2 folks claim Fifth Amendment very often in civil 3 court, so I'm not very familiar with it. On a 4 production request, you can claim a Fifth Amendment 5 not to produce a document, just like you can assert 6 a Fifth Amendment privilege in response to a 7 question. 8 I'm asking, 'cause I don't -- 9 MR. HOWIE: Well, your Honor, it may not be 10 timely to raise Fifth Amendment at the time, as a 11 response to the request for production, but in an 12 effort to preserve it, if a motion to compel is 13 filed, we wish to state our position up front. 14 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Are we ready? 15 MR. FUGATE: Just -- Judge, this is mundane 16 compared to everything else, but I had marked out 17 June 3rd -- I know you're not getting there -- as 18 the day that the court had said -- I think 19 Mr. Weinberg was going to be gone, and I had put 20 some things in on June 3rd. So if we continue on, 21 is June 3rd still protected? That's the Monday 22 after the 31st. 23 THE COURT: If I -- if I told you a certain 24 date is protected, it is. 25 MR. WEINBERG: That is the day I was coming 0201
1 back from the graduation. 2 THE COURT: Then it's protected. 3 But we're not there. I'm -- 4 MR. FUGATE: I understand that. I just was -- 5 THE COURT: Right. No. If I have in the 6 past -- if any of you brought up certain dates and I 7 said, "Fine, we won't do anything on that date," 8 then that stands. I have a date in June that we're 9 not -- 10 MR. FUGATE: That's certain. 11 THE COURT: That's a certain. 12 MR. FUGATE: May it please the court? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. May I ask 15 you a question? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 THE WITNESS: There's another complicating 18 factor here relative to any protective order that 19 Mr. Dandar might be seeking, and that is that I've 20 engaged another attorney, named George Hayes, to be 21 pursuing Mr. Dandar with respect to some of the 22 outstanding financial issues related to this case. 23 If there's going to be an argument that would in any 24 way prohibit another course of legal action being 25 taken, I would like to have the opportunity to have 0202
1 my attorney George Hayes come here -- 2 THE COURT: I don't think that this would 3 prohibit that. This is a request to produce that 4 you have filed in this case. As far as I am 5 concerned, regarding request to produce in this 6 case, that's my bag. If you've got a lawyer that 7 you're going to get to pursue a case on your behalf, 8 that's some other problem. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 THE COURT: So whatever request you have, if 11 your lawyer wants to be here today at noon, he may. 12 If he's not here, I intend to proceed. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 THE COURT: And I won't have this court used, 15 quite frankly, or this proceeding used to enable 16 this man, who's causing this proceeding, to get 17 discovery for another lawsuit. So if that's the 18 point or the purpose of this, Mr. Howie, I will be 19 most annoyed not only at Mr. Minton but at you as 20 well. 21 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. However, it's for 22 purposes of determining Mr. Minton's standing based 23 on the court's ruling -- 24 THE COURT: I understand that. But right off 25 the bat, when I hear somebody wants a lawyer to 0203
1 produce in this case, where he spent money, it comes 2 to my mind that the reason for that might be to 3 enable this man, who's occasioning this hearing, to 4 use my court to help him in another lawsuit. That 5 ain't gonna happen. 6 MR. HOWIE: That was in fact considered, your 7 Honor, and that's why -- 8 THE COURT: Well, let me just make it real 9 clear that that's not going to happen. I am not 10 sitting in this court, conducting this hearing, to 11 aid him in the ability to file a lawsuit, any more 12 than any other judge would sit and aid a person 13 that's contemplating a lawsuit. 14 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. That's quite 15 clear to both of us. 16 THE COURT: All right. Proceed. 17 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, what I'm going to 18 do -- 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And Mr. Minton, I think up there you have your 21 second affidavit. 22 A Yes. 23 MR. FUGATE: And Judge, we had hopped around 24 owing to the things that occurred Friday afternoon. 25 I think what I'll do, and I think it'll sort of get 0204
1 us back on track -- is to go to the second 2 affidavit, if you have that -- 3 THE COURT: Let me find it. I -- I think last 4 Friday you all gave me the one that I was missing. 5 Okay. I've got an affidavit -- I've got three 6 affidavits now, okay? I have one that's called 7 notice of filing affidavit. That's -- 8 MR. FUGATE: That's the first one, I believe. 9 THE COURT: Then I have a notice of filing 10 second affidavit, which I'm going to assume is the 11 second, and then notice of filing of third 12 affidavit. 13 MR. FUGATE: And the second one is 26 pages 14 long, I think. Actually, the jurat's on the 26th 15 page, I think. 16 THE COURT: 26. Yes. 17 MR. FUGATE: Well, what I'm going to do, Judge, 18 just so you can keep track, and everybody else, I 19 guess, is -- we had hopped around a little bit 20 because of what was going on Friday afternoon, I'm 21 going to go back and just go through the affidavit. 22 I think it'll structure everything where everybody 23 can keep track, or maybe I can keep track of where 24 I'm going. 25 0205
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q So if we could, Mr. Minton, if you'll turn to page 3 2 of 26? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And actually, the second paragraph, you had 6 already testified about, and I'm not going to ask you any 7 questions about that at this point. 8 I would like to move to paragraph 3. And if you 9 note in paragraph 3 -- and you've already testified to 10 loaning money to Mr. Wollersheim and providing funds to 11 Mr. Leipold, but I will ask you, sir, did you have any sort 12 of agreement, note or anything with Mr. Leipold? 13 And I'm going to hand you -- 14 THE COURT: Are we going to be going through 15 this affidavit now? I mean -- 16 MR. FUGATE: That's what I think would be 17 easier, Judge, all the way around. 18 THE COURT: Okay. I agree. 19 MR. FUGATE: And the exhibits should then key 20 to the paragraphs. 21 THE COURT: Good. 22 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the clerk? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 MR. DANDAR: What exhibit number is number 2 25 affidavit? 0206
1 MR. FUGATE: We can make it an exhibit, I 2 suppose. It's an exhibit to the motion or the memo 3 of fact and law. But we just marked this letter as 4 Exhibit 40 -- 5 THE COURT: More than 40. 6 MR. FUGATE: She had a plaintiff's number, 7 that's all. 8 We'll get started. 9 THE COURT: I know. I know. 10 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, the second 11 affidavit is Number 3 in our exhibits to the motion. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 100 marked for identification.) 14 MR. DANDAR: What number is this letter? 15 MR. FUGATE: 100. 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you. 17 THE COURT: You've given me -- this is the 18 clerk's copy. 19 MR. FUGATE: I'm somehow one short because I 20 forgot about Mr. Howie. And I apologize to the 21 court and Mr. Howie. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q I would like you to take a look at what has been 24 placed in front of you marked as Defendant's Exhibit 100 and 25 ask you if you would just take a moment to look at that and 0207
1 see if you can identify both the letter and the document 2 that's attached. 3 A Yes. I recognize those. 4 Q All right. And do you see, sir, on the last page, 5 a signature at the bottom of page 3 of 3? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And can you identify that signature, sir? 8 A That is my signature, dated May 31st, 1998. 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would move into evidence 10 Defendant's Exhibit 100, which is a letter to 11 Mr. Minton from Hagenbaugh -- and Madam Clerk, 12 that's H-a-g-e-n-b-a-u-g-h -- and Murphy. 13 THE COURT: Any objection? 14 MR. DANDAR: No objection, except the loan 15 document is not of that law firm, it appears. But I 16 may be wrong. It's a different law firm. But I 17 have no objection. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Well, we'll let it be 19 received and then we'll -- you can look at it and 20 I'll look at it and we'll decide what to do. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 100 received in evidence.) 22 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q If you will, sir, can you tell us, in your 25 affidavit, in paragraph 3, you've indicated -- and we've 0208
1 already, as I said, had testimony about money to 2 Mr. Wollersheim. But in that same paragraph, you indicate 3 you loaned money to Dan Leipold. Was there any sort of 4 agreement that you had with Mr. Leipold as to the loaning of 5 that money? 6 A Yes. With respect to the first $180,000, which is 7 covered under this agreement that's attached on page 2, 3 8 and 4, I believe -- 9 Q All right. 10 A -- and -- 11 Q Just briefly, can you give us the background of 12 what you understood the money was being provided to 13 Mr. Leipold for and what the note evidenced? 14 A Right. Mr. Leipold and two of his partners in 15 this Hagenbaugh and Murphy law firm basically needed to 16 leave that law firm. They had been involved in a lot of 17 Scientology litigation. No money was coming in. The law 18 firm was not happy with it. So they wanted to set up on 19 their own. And Mr. Leipold approached me to enable them -- 20 you know, for basically seed capital, to help them set up a 21 law firm that could pursue the Scientology litigation 22 independently of Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 23 Q And I note the beginning of the letter says, "Dear 24 Bob: I appreciate your commitment to me and my partners and 25 your generosity in allowing us to continue our work in 0209
1 opposition of Scientology." What did you understand that 2 reference to be, sir? 3 A That as he had requested of me, that his purpose 4 of setting this up was to, you know, continue with 5 anti-Scientology litigation. 6 Q And this was part of what you had testified to 7 when we were last here, of moneys that you were funding to 8 fund your anti-Scientology campaign? 9 A That's right. 10 Q And in this particular instance, you had an 11 agreement with the firm, is that correct, with Mr. Leipold 12 and others? 13 A Yes. The firm of Leipold, Donohue and Shipe, 14 which was the new firm to be created, and the three partners 15 there were parties to this -- 16 Q And you say -- 17 A -- agreement. 18 Q -- also in paragraph 3, sir, "The same witnesses 19 have been used by Mr. Dandar as were used by Mr. Leipold and 20 others in the Wollersheim litigation." 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Can you tell us who those witnesses would be, if 23 you can recall? 24 A Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks and Vaughn Young. 25 Q And it says that, "The money --" "My money was 0210
1 used in part to pay the witnesses in that litigation to 2 provide affidavits to support Mr. Wollersheim and 3 Mr. Leipold's theories." Are those the affidavits that 4 we've had some reference to earlier in your testimony? 5 A Yes. And I believe in Mrs. Brooks' testimony as 6 well. 7 Q And was there a time -- you've mentioned FACTNet. 8 Was there a time when FACTNet -- you were in charge of -- I 9 think you said you were president of FACTNet. 10 Was there a time -- 11 THE COURT: I'm going to stop you just for a 12 second, 'cause I'm going to give this to the clerk 13 so it doesn't get all bogged into my stuff. If 14 you're going to be referring to this in argument or 15 otherwise, make sure I have a copy of it. 16 MR. FUGATE: I will. 17 THE COURT: But just to show the loan 18 agreement, I've made a note of that. 19 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I'll do that, Judge. 20 Well, Judge, guess what? May I approach? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 MR. FUGATE: Here's an extra copy. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Did -- did FACTNet employ either Jesse Prince, 0211
1 Vaughn Young or Stacy Young Brooks during the period of time 2 that you operated FACTNet? 3 A I'm not sure that Vaughn Young was at all employed 4 by FACTNet during that period of time. 5 Q Mm-hmm. 6 A Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince, yes. 7 Q Okay. Now, this is -- on paragraph 4, you 8 indicate that you became involved in this litigation here 9 and you indicated -- and I think you've already testified 10 that you provided a check October 6th of '97 and you also 11 had made reference to a letter, but I don't think that we 12 actually put the letter in evidence -- 13 MR. FUGATE: So if I may do that, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 You know what I think? I think -- this is -- 16 this is the -- when I realized last Friday you said 17 you might want to call Ms. Liebreich back -- 18 Mr. Dandar obviously is going to testify in full, he 19 indicated; Mr. Minton is here testifying rather 20 extensively. So I think -- let's just make this our 21 own hearing. And so whatever went on in Baird's 22 hearing, frankly, I've seen it because I've read it 23 just so I could be aware of it -- let's do our own 24 hearing and let's not include that. As I said, I've 25 got problems with some of the impeachment stuff that 0212
1 seems to be in as an exhibit. So since we have 2 Mr. Minton here and we're -- you know, we may have 3 some repeat stuff, I don't see any reason why we 4 just can't make this hearing our hearing and have 5 Baird have his hearing. Is that okay with 6 everybody? 7 MR. DANDAR: That's fine, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 101 marked for identification.) 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is now marked as 11 Defendant's Exhibit 101 -- 12 THE COURT: So Madam Clerk, I think we 13 introduced as evidence something as Exhibit, maybe, 14 1 or 2 -- we'll have to look at it. But whatever it 15 was I introduced or I allowed to be introduced as 16 the hearing transcript, I'm going to -- 17 THE CLERK: Court's Exhibits 1 and 2. 18 THE COURT: Court's Exhibits 1 and 2 are 19 withdrawn. I mean, they can be there because we'll 20 be referring to them, and all that, but for all 21 intents and purposes, make your own record here, so 22 I'll know what you're talking about, okay? 23 All right. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Now, you have already identified the check, I 0213
1 think, as Defendant's Exhibit 93A, is that correct? 2 A That is correct. 3 Q October 6th check? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, if you would look at the handwritten note 6 that is attached to 101, I'm going to ask you if you can 7 identify that, sir. 8 A Yes, I can. 9 Q And is that a note that was authored by you, sir? 10 A It is. 11 Q And was that a note that was provided by you to 12 who? Says, "Dear Ken." 13 A To Mr. Dandar. 14 Q And sir, the date is October 6th, and that's the 15 same date the check was issued. Can you tell us how the 16 check and the note, to your knowledge, got to Mr. Dandar? 17 A I believe I sent them by overnight mail. 18 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would move into evidence 19 Defendant's Exhibit 101. 20 THE COURT: Any objection? 21 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 22 THE COURT: It'll be received. 23 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 101 received in evidence.) 24 THE COURT: I have a letter that is attached to 25 request to produce. But this is all the exhibit. 0214
1 MR. FUGATE: I just did it for sake of 2 completeness. We can -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. I just want to be sure. 4 MR. FUGATE: We -- 5 That's it. 6 THE COURT: This -- it is a letter attached to 7 an amended response to request for production. 8 That's the exhibit -- 9 MR. FUGATE: That's the exhibit. 10 THE COURT: The entire thing. 11 Okay. And what number is that? 101? 12 MR. FUGATE: 101, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And sir, if you could read this to yourself. And 16 I'm going to ask you what you recall you understood you were 17 doing with the money you were providing to Mr. Dandar. 18 A Yes, I can recall. 19 Q All right. Was this money to go to Mr. Dandar to 20 use any way he saw fit? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you express in the letter or note how you 23 wanted the money that you were providing to Mr. Dandar and 24 to the estate used? 25 A It was for the McPherson case. 0215
1 Q Now, in paragraph 5, you indicate that you have 2 given, in your recollection, a total of $2,050,000 to 3 Mr. Dandar, is that correct? 4 A That's correct. 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 7 THE COURT: What was the number of the letter 8 that I got when you gave me copy -- 9 MR. FUGATE: 100. 10 THE COURT: Number 100. 11 MR. FUGATE: 100. 12 THE COURT: Thanks. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm 13 up to date now. I guess we're all getting off to a 14 slow start. 15 MR. FUGATE: Hopefully, as I said, this will -- 16 THE COURT: It'll pick up. 17 MR. FUGATE: It'll key up here. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q You state in paragraph 5 that you -- that this was 21 not a personal loan; it was not to be spent for any other 22 purposes. Was that your understanding, sir, of the 23 agreement that you understood you had? 24 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. 0216
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Sir, what was the understanding you had, as far as 3 you understand, with Mr. Dandar and the estate of Lisa 4 McPherson, for the funds that you were providing? 5 A That these were loans to the estate that would be 6 paid back out of whatever funds the estate received in 7 judgment or through settlement in the resolution of this 8 case. There was -- you know, there's never been any dispute 9 that I know of as to who would pay these loans back. 10 They've always been to be paid back by the estate. 11 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to ask to approach the 12 clerk again, Judge. 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 MR. FUGATE: And I think I'll ask that these be 15 marked as a composite. 16 And Mr. Dandar, these are copies of the 17 letters, as I understand -- 18 And Judge, there are several letters, and I'll 19 just mark them as a composite, 102. 20 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 102 marked for identification.) 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: It'll be a letter of 23 October 9th -- October 9th, 1997; a letter of 24 May 12th, 1999; and a letter of June 17th, 1999. 25 THE COURT: This is Composite 102, right? 0217
1 MR. FUGATE: Composite 102. 2 THE COURT: Three letters? Before I staple 3 them, there are three? 4 MR. FUGATE: Three. Yes, Judge. I'm sorry. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q And I'm going to ask you, sir, if you would look 8 at Composite 103, the three letters, the first letter -- 9 THE COURT: I thought it was 102. 10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. Well -- 11 THE COURT: 102. 12 MR. FUGATE: 102. Composite 102, the three 13 letters. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q I'm going to ask you, sir, do you recognize and 16 can you recognize those three letters -- 17 MR. FUGATE: "Three" ended up being "103," 18 Judge. I'm sorry. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q 102. 21 A Yes. I recognize those. Wait a minute. Yes, I 22 do. 23 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, at this time I would 24 move Composite 102 into evidence. 25 THE COURT: Any objection? 0218
1 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 2 THE COURT: They'll be received. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 102 received in evidence.) 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Now, if you look at, sir -- there are several 6 things I'm going to ask you to look at. 7 On the October 9th, 1997 letter, can you tell us 8 what check, if you recall, that that went to? 9 A That was the October 6th, 1997 check that I 10 referred to. 11 Q Which is 93-H, I believe? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And do you see there, line -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- where it says -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- "re:"? 18 A "McPherson versus Church of Scientology." 19 Q And is that where you understood the funds you 20 were providing were to go? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q And do you notice that on the highlighted 23 paragraph, the first paragraph, it says that, "This will 24 acknowledge receipt of your check in the amount of $100,000 25 in the above-referenced case." 0219
1 A Yes. 2 Q Did that also confirm your understanding, sir? 3 A There was never any doubt in my mind that this was 4 for the McPherson v. Scientology case. 5 Q And do you see the second highlighted note there, 6 or the portion of the letter that begins, "Upon successful 7 conclusion of the case, your funds will be repaid to you as 8 you state in your letter. If the litigation is not 9 successful, the client is not obligated to repay your 10 donation." 11 A Right. 12 Q Do you see the term "donation"? 13 A I do. It's a bit of a strange term, but yes. 14 Q Did you consider the money that you were providing 15 to be a loan or a donation? 16 A I considered it a loan. 17 Q Okay. Now, sir, if you look at the May 12th 18 letter, do you see that that -- and I'm going to have to ask 19 you if you can match that up with one of your checks. Do 20 you recall what check the May 19th, '99 -- May 12th letter, 21 '99, was confirming? 22 A Well, you know, I don't believe it's in these 23 exhibits. 24 Q Is this the one that was -- you didn't have a copy 25 of to produce? 0220
1 A Yes. I believe so. Let me just look at my little 2 list. 3 Q And for the court's benefit and mine, you're 4 looking at a list of what? 5 A Of the checks that I've given to the estate. 6 Handed to Mr. Dandar or mailed to him. 7 Oh, I see. This letter is actually a peremptory 8 letter concerning the May 22nd, '99 check for 100,000. 9 Q And do you have the number of that check up there? 10 Is that one that you provided? 11 A I believe that is actually in here. I didn't 12 realize it was referring to one that was going to be written 13 in the future. It's 93-D. 14 Q 93-D? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Defendant's Exhibit 93-D? 17 And again, is the language the same, that it's for 18 the referenced case, and basically that the client is going 19 to repay? 20 A That's right. The client is -- 21 Q Or actually, what it says -- 22 A The client is not -- not obligated to repay if the 23 litigation is not successful. 24 Q And if you look, sir, then, at the last letter, 25 June 17th, 1999, the last letter -- 0221
1 THE COURT: It actually, says, "The client is 2 not obligated to pay your donation," right, once 3 again? 4 MR. FUGATE: Donation. Yeah. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's the same exact 6 wording -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: -- as the one before, basically. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q But it's your understanding -- 11 Well, in your mind, what agreement was still in 12 force and effect, I should say? 13 A The original agreement; that upon the successful 14 conclusion of the case, either at trial or in settlement, 15 that the estate would pay back the funds that I had loaned. 16 Q Now, we're skipping ahead in Composite 102 -- 17 THE COURT: Can we all agree 93-D, as I'm 18 looking at it, is so hard to read -- do we all agree 19 that is a $100,000 check? 20 THE WITNESS: In the bottom -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: -- right-hand corner of that 23 check, you can see the bank having encoded amount in 24 as a hundred thousand. 25 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 0222
1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, you know, I have -- I 2 think -- 3 THE COURT: I didn't hear from the parties, 4 though. Do you all agree that this is a hundred 5 thousand -- 6 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Plaintiff agrees. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Okay. I assumed it was, but I'm 9 glad to know that is what that is down there. 10 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 MR. FUGATE: This is -- I gave a copy of this 13 to Mr. Dandar last Friday. This is -- essentially 14 what we did was put the checks on computer, the ones 15 that have been introduced into evidence, and blew 16 them up so that they'd be a little more readable. 17 Some of them are, some of them aren't. 18 THE COURT: So this is just a -- this is not 19 being introduced; this is just a -- 20 MR. FUGATE: If there's no objection, we 21 could -- just -- it's easier to read. But it's up 22 to the -- counsel. 23 THE COURT: Well, usually I look at this as 24 something that is -- what do you want to call it -- 25 when you use something -- 0223
1 MR. FUGATE: An aid. 2 THE COURT: So it's really not evidence. 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 4 THE COURT: The checks are. But I will 5 certainly appreciate the -- 6 MR. FUGATE: I -- 7 THE COURT: -- enhanced checks. 8 MR. FUGATE: For my eyes, it's easier to read 9 than the other ones. 10 THE COURT: It is. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Then I'm going to direct your attention again, 13 Mr. Minton, to the last letter in 102, Defendant's Exhibit 14 102, which is a June 19 -- excuse me. Can't read this -- 15 June 17th, 1999. Do you recall receiving this letter, sir, 16 and do you recall essentially what it was about? 17 A Yes. I had asked Mr. Dandar to send me a summary 18 letter of the checks that had been, you know, provided to 19 date, and this letter was sent to me in response to that 20 request. 21 Q Okay. And we're jumping ahead from October of '97 22 to June of 1999, correct, by date? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And would you read the "re:" line, please, sir? 25 A "Re: McPherson versus Church of Scientology." 0224
1 Q And would you read the highlighted portion of the 2 second paragraph -- or first paragraph, sir? 3 A "We would like to thank you for your continued 4 monetary support in the above-referenced case. To date you 5 have generously provided four checks each in the amount of 6 100,000, for a total of 400,000. I.e., 10-97, 2-98, 12-98 7 and most recently 5-99." 8 Q And in the second paragraph, would you read that 9 to -- you see in the first line there it says, "Your 10 donations --" 11 Again, was your understanding -- what was your 12 understanding in June of 1999 of the agreement that you had? 13 A That these were loans to the estate. 14 Q And if you read the highlighted portion, does this 15 confirm what you understood the agreement to be? 16 A Yes. Yes, it does. 17 I would point out to -- that at the time, I 18 informed Mr. Dandar this letter was incorrect. 19 Q And how so? 20 A In that there had been six checks, inclusive of 21 the 5-99 check, as opposed to four. Six checks of 100,000. 22 Q And I think that you testified about that, but 23 since it was on Friday, can you refresh the court's 24 recollection to how there came to be six checks and where -- 25 if there are no copies, why there are no copies of the 0225
1 additional checks? 2 THE COURT: We're talking about two checks that 3 we don't have? 4 MR. FUGATE: I'm asking, really, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 A I think there's only one check we don't have, and 7 that's the one October -- as I said, this little thing -- I 8 think it's 17th, '98. The other five checks are -- you 9 know, I've provided in discovery or the bank's provided in 10 discovery. 11 But there was one check that was not provided in 12 discovery, that was issued on an account, a trust account 13 that I maintained at -- what was at the time Bay Bank 14 Boston, and that account had been closed because sometime -- 15 sometime later in '98 -- 16 Well, first of all, I had lost my checkbook. My 17 car was broken into out in Santa Monica, California. The 18 checkbook for that account was lost. And sometime in 19 Novemberish, I think, of 1998, about $60,000 worth of checks 20 got negotiated on that account through Bank of America in 21 San Francisco or Los Angeles. I don't remember where it 22 was, but somewhere in California. And these checks were 23 presented to my bank for payment. They paid them. We had 24 to go through a whole big rigamarole to get the money back. 25 And you know, they claimed from Bank of America -- 0226
1 And eventually -- 2 So in any case, the account was closed, and -- 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Okay. To -- back to -- to -- the money that you 5 provided to the estate that are at issue here, what account 6 was -- 7 Well, first of all, what amount was the check, so 8 we're clear on that? 9 A That was a hundred thousand. 10 Q And that was October of 1998? 11 A Right. 12 Q And do you recall who it was made out to? 13 A Dandar and Dandar. 14 Q And you have no -- no copy of that check 15 available, is that what I understand? 16 A Not yet. But it's been sent to me by mail. 17 Q Is being sent to you? 18 A Is being sent to me by mail. 19 Q And so you notified Mr. Dandar -- I cut you off 20 there -- that there were two checks missing, in this letter 21 of June of '99? 22 A Right. 23 Q Now, if you will, sir -- 24 MR. FUGATE: And Judge, the -- in the enlarged 25 aid that we gave you -- 0227
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q If you would look through that, sir, and see each 3 of the checks that you wrote, if we could go through them 4 one at a time. And I'll ask you, with regard to the 5 October 6th, 1997 check, who was that made out to? 6 A Dandar and Dandar. 7 Q Would you read the "for" line or the "memo" line? 8 A "Re Lisa McPherson v. Scientology case." 9 Q And that was a hundred thousand dollars? 10 A That's right. 11 Q The next check I have blown up here is 12 February 5th, 1998. Would you tell us who that check was 13 made out to? 14 A Dandar and Dandar. 15 Q Can you read the "memo" line? 16 A Yes. It says "Re: McPherson case." 17 Q And that was a hundred thousand dollar check? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q Next check, I know, is a November 30th, 1998 20 check. 21 A Dandar and -- payable to Dandar and Dandar. It's 22 a hundred thousand. 23 Q And can you read the "memo" or "for" line? 24 A It's a little bit hard to read, but it's 25 "McPherson case." I think. 0228
1 Q Well, can you read your writing to see what of -- 2 how it's -- the name that's placed there? 3 A Well, it says "McPherson," and -- and I think it 4 says "case." 5 Q Okay. If you look at -- 6 A It's hard to read. 7 Q If you look at the May 22nd, 1999 check -- 8 MR. FUGATE: And these all, Judge, for the 9 record, are Composite 93. 10 A Yes. That's a check to Dandar and Dandar for a 11 hundred thousand; Re: McPherson case. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q And if you look at the August 27th, '99 check, 14 who's that made out to? 15 A Dandar and Dandar, $250,000, for McPherson. Just 16 says "For McPherson." 17 Q All right. If you look at the January 14th check, 18 which is next in my list, of 2000, do you see who that's 19 made out to? 20 A Dandar and Dandar, in the amount of 200,000, for 21 McPherson. 22 Q And then May 1st, 2000 is a bank check. We'll 23 come back to that. 24 A Okay. 25 Q It's the UVS check we talked about before. 0229
1 A Right. 2 Q If you look at the May 25th, 2001 check, can you 3 tell who that's made out to? 4 A Ken Dandar. 5 Q And you see the date of May 25th, 2001? 6 A Yes. And the amount is 250,000 and the memo is 7 "McPherson case." 8 Q "McPherson case"? 9 And then the last check is UVS check in March of 10 2002. We'll come back to that. 11 But the last check that we just discussed, it was 12 a personal check, or check on your account -- 13 A That's right. 14 Q -- which was dated in May of 2001. 15 Was your understanding of the agreement still the 16 same then? 17 A Yes, it was. 18 Q And did you reflect that on the "memo" or "for" 19 line? 20 A Yes. It was for the McPherson case. 21 THE COURT: We're coming back to the two bank 22 checks also made out to Ken Dandar as opposed to 23 Dandar and Dandar? 24 MR. FUGATE: Yes. And I'm sure I'll have 25 somebody remind me of that, back when I -- 0230
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Now, if you go to paragraph 7 -- 3 I know we're slightly out of -- out of line 4 here -- 5 A Of the affidavit? 6 Q Of the affidavit, yes, sir. 7 THE COURT: Did you handle paragraph 6? I 8 don't recall that you did. 9 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to come back to that, 10 because that deals with the phone records, Judge, 11 and I'm just going to go to 7, 'cause I think it's 12 shorter to deal with. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 MR. FUGATE: This, Judge, will be 103. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 103 marked for identification.) 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q I'm going to hand you what's been marked as 21 Defense Exhibit 103. Would you take a moment and look at 22 that, sir? 23 A Okay. Yes. This is an Internet posting made by 24 me on October 10th, 1997. 25 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 0231
1 THE COURT: You may. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I neglected to go over 3 something on the last paragraph. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q So will you hold 103 a moment there, sir? 6 A Yes. 7 Can I just ask, Mr. Fugate, when you hand me 8 copies of these things, is it all right if I write on them 9 or -- 10 Q It would be -- you mean the exhibit number, so -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q That would be fine as far as I'm concerned. 13 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's not the official 14 exhibit, though, is it? 15 THE COURT: No. 16 MR. FUGATE: No. The official exhibit, I'm 17 leaving with the clerk. 18 THE WITNESS: Just for my reference, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: They're yours, I presume. Are you 21 giving them to him for his reference? 22 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 23 Actually, what he's got up there were given to 24 him Friday. I'm giving the original to the clerk; 25 I'm giving a courtesy copy to everybody except 0232
1 Mr. Howie. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q I had -- on paragraph 5, I asked you if that last 4 check embodied the agreement, as you understand it. I'm 5 going to ask you, if I could, do you recall being deposed in 6 Boston on January 13th, 1998 in this case? 7 A I do. 8 Q Okay. Do you recall that Mr. Dandar was there? 9 A Yes, he was. 10 Q And do you recall the following questions and 11 answers? 12 THE COURT: Why are you starting to read from a 13 deposition? Ask him a question. You don't need to 14 read from a deposition. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Do you recall being asked if there were any 17 restrictions on the funds that you were being provided -- 18 that you had provided to Mr. Dandar? Do you recall a 19 question like that? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q And do you recall what your answer was, sir? 22 A That they were restricted to the use of this 23 particular litigation and they weren't to be used for 24 Mr. Dandar's personal use. 25 Q Do you recall a question, "For instance, could 0233
1 Mr. Dandar buy a car with these funds?" 2 A I do recall that question. 3 Q And do you recall what your answer was? 4 A "Absolutely not." Was my answer. 5 Q And do you recall a question whether the funds 6 were to be used for the personal use of Mr. Dandar, and what 7 your answer was? 8 A I believe I was asked that question, and the 9 answer was that they were for the use of this litigation, 10 the costs and expenses in connection with this litigation, 11 not for his personal use. 12 Q All right. And was Mr. Dandar again present at 13 this deposition? 14 A He was. 15 Q And did he correct you on that testimony or say 16 anything to you about whether you had given inaccurate 17 testimony at that time? 18 A He certainly didn't on the record, and he didn't 19 say anything about it afterwards as me having said anything 20 incorrect. 21 Q And again, did the testimony that you gave in that 22 particular deposition in January of 1998 -- did that reflect 23 what your understanding of the agreement was? 24 A Yes, it did. 25 Q Now, if we can skip ahead to paragraph 7, do you 0234
1 recall making a posting that you refer to in paragraph 7? 2 A Yes. I believe that's Number 103 that's been 3 entered into evidence. 4 Q Now, that posting is dated -- 5 Well, I haven't entered it yet. 6 A Oh. 7 Q I'm going to ask you, if you look at the one I 8 gave you, does that appear to be a posting that you 9 recognize as being made by you on October 10th, 1997? 10 A It is. 11 Q I think it's entitled, "Why is this scumbag church 12 doing a background check on me"? 13 A That's right. 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would move this 15 posting into evidence as Defendant's 103. 16 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 17 THE COURT: It'll be received. 18 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 103 received in evidence.) 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Now, you're -- who are you talking to in this 21 posting, sir? 22 A Grady Ward. 23 Q And is that the same Grady Ward who's the 24 Webmaster and security director of the Lisa McPherson Trust 25 on Defense's Exhibit 81, I believe it is? 0235
1 A Yes. At the time. 2 Q He was. 3 A Yes, he was. Yes. 4 Q Now, if you notice the first highlighted portion 5 down there, it says, "And be sure that the rear admiral will 6 be on the first helicopter out and not the last boat." What 7 are you referring to there? 8 A I'm referring to rear admiral as being David 9 Miscavige. 10 Q And if you look at the highlighted portion on the 11 second page, the first highlighted portion says, "I believe 12 that the experience has enabled me to appreciate the horrors 13 of personal tragedy that have been associated with 14 Scientology's confinement of people like Dennis, and most 15 tragically, the murder of Lisa McPherson"? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did you write those words? 18 A I did. 19 Q And how did you come to understand that the term 20 "murder" was -- where did you come up with the term 21 "murder," sir? 22 A It was, at the time, what I felt and other people 23 felt was what happened to Lisa McPherson. 24 Q And again, you see a reference further down, in 25 yellow, "These murderers did not even have the decency to 0236
1 kill the cockroaches who were also feeding on Lisa." And 2 what was that a reference to, as you recall today? 3 A That was in response to the fact that the first, I 4 believe, autopsy report talked about cockroach bites on 5 Lisa's body. 6 Q Now, you had testified on Friday, I believe, that 7 Mr. Dandar had sent you a copy or a draft of the first 8 amended complaint. Do you recall that, sir? 9 A I do. 10 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 MR. FUGATE: And I know this is burdening the 13 record, but I'm going to mark it so we can keep 14 track. This is first amended -- 15 104? 16 THE CLERK: Yes. 17 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 104 marked for identification.) 18 MR. DANDAR: Is this 104? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 MR. DANDAR: All right. 21 THE COURT: I'm kind of confused a little bit. 22 Not confused a little bit. 23 But it was a complaint, and then we had first, 24 second, third, fourth and fifth. So this was -- 25 there wasn't something called "amended complaint" 0237
1 and then "first amended complaint." In other words, 2 a first amended complaint was the second complaint 3 filed. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: The first -- the original 8 one-count negligence/wrongful death -- 9 THE COURT: The original complaint -- 10 MR. FUGATE: -- we answered -- 11 THE COURT: -- was "complaint." 12 MR. FUGATE: And then this occurred as the 13 second -- the second complaint in chronology, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Do you recall, sir, when you received the draft 17 copy of the first amended complaint? If you would -- if you 18 would tell me your best recollection, in line with your 19 postings and your checks, if you -- if that helps in any 20 way -- 21 A Sometime in October, 1997. 22 Q All right. And I have put before you Defendant's 23 Exhibit Number 104, marked for identification as 104. Do 24 you recognize that, sir? 25 A Well, on the face of it, it says it's the first 0238
1 amended complaint and demand for trial by jury in this case. 2 Q Would you just take a moment and look -- 3 A You know, I think that's Mr. Dandar's signature. 4 Q Would you just take a moment and look at that, 5 sir, and see if you can recognize this in any way? 6 A Okay. 7 THE COURT: What -- are you dealing with a 8 certain paragraph of the affidavit? 9 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. I'm sorry. Paragraph 10 7. Excuse me. 11 THE COURT: 7. Okay. That's what the Internet 12 posting was dealing with, paragraph 7. Somehow 13 got -- 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And you certainly don't have to read it word for 16 word -- 17 A Right. I'm just flipping through it. 18 You know, I believe this is the one where the term 19 "murder" is introduced into it. 20 Q Well, my question, sir, is, does this appear to be 21 the same or similar to the draft complaint that you received 22 in October, I think you just said, of 1997? 23 A I think the draft that I had in October, 1997, was 24 less harsh than this one turned out to be. 25 Q Okay. But -- 0239
1 A And you know, I might add that this -- the drafts 2 of these first amended complaints were -- you know, I can 3 only speak for myself, but certainly I know others were 4 getting this as well. 5 Q I'm sorry. Others were -- 6 A Others were getting the draft as well. I mean, 7 Mr. Dandar was looking for lots of input. 8 Q Well, if you look at the date -- 9 THE COURT: Wait a second. We've got to get -- 10 Can you testify with any degree of certainty or 11 otherwise that this is not the same thing you got a 12 copy of? I mean you're saying, "Well, I think, 13 maybe this was --" it might have been more harsh or 14 less harsh-- do you have something you can compare, 15 or are you guessing? 16 THE WITNESS: No. I don't have something to 17 compare it to. But I know what the draft -- you 18 know, basically, what the draft that I said -- that 19 I received was. And this clearly -- you know, I 20 have read the first amended complaint, and -- and 21 this looks to be it. And I know that this is 22 substantially harsher in terms of what it's trying 23 to portray happened to Lisa McPherson. 24 THE COURT: Well, whatever was sent to you was 25 not this. This -- 0240
1 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 2 THE COURT: -- was filed, and you got it after 3 it was filed. Is that what you're saying? 4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. No. I received 5 it before it was filed, in October of 1997. 6 THE COURT: You got something else that nobody 7 has, is that it? And this? 8 THE WITNESS: I got this later. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: You know, after it was filed. 11 But you know, I -- I saw a draft earlier in October 12 of 1997. 13 I believe this is -- 14 THE COURT: That's my point -- 15 THE WITNESS: -- two months later. 16 THE COURT: -- Mr. Minton. Mr. Minton, that's 17 my point. 18 I believe your testimony is that you got 19 something else other than this. 20 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: And then this was filed. And after 22 this was filed, which you say is harsher than what 23 you got, you got a copy of this, whatever exhibit it 24 is, and this is -- 25 MR. FUGATE: 104. 0241
1 THE COURT: 104. Is that what your testimony 2 was? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. This was posted on the 4 Internet -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: -- after it was filed. 7 THE COURT: Well, that's fine, but it was not 8 my question. 9 My question was, you got a copy of this 10 complaint after it was filed, and whatever you got 11 before it was filed, you now testify was not 104. 12 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And I presume, if you kept 14 all this stuff you can produce that. 15 THE WITNESS: You know, if I had kept all this 16 stuff, your Honor, I'd have to have a warehouse in 17 Odessa, Texas -- Odessa, Florida. 18 THE COURT: So you don't know whether you have 19 it or not, is that it? 20 THE WITNESS: I don't have it. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, actually, what I was 23 going to ask was -- 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Were you aware that the first amended complaint 0242
1 ultimately was filed sometime in December of 1997? 2 A Yes. 3 MR. FUGATE: And Judge, I guess we can just 4 mark it. We don't need to make this a part of the 5 record. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q My question was, had you received a draft copy of 8 the first amended complaint? 9 THE COURT: Now, he's already testified about 10 it. That's what I was trying to clear up. And he's 11 now said no. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: He got something different. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 THE COURT: And he got this after it was filed. 16 THE WITNESS: That's not exactly what I said. 17 THE COURT: Well, that is what you said, and 18 that's what I was trying to get clear. 19 And stop leading him. 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 21 THE COURT: No. Let him ask the questions and 22 you answer the questions. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Mr. Minton, did you -- you've indicated in your 0243
1 testimony on Friday, if I recall it, that -- that Mr. -- you 2 said that you knew, from talking to Mr. Dandar, that he was 3 following your postings, correct? 4 A Right. 5 Q And in the October 10th posting, which is, I 6 believe, 103, were you expressing what you wanted to see 7 happen to the Lisa McPherson case? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And on or around the 10th of October, 1997, had 10 you received any draft complaint, to the best of your 11 recollection? 12 A Not at that time. 13 Q Did you receive one thereafter? 14 A I did. I received something that said First 15 Amended Complaint. It was an earlier draft of what became 16 the final version. 17 Q And that ultimately -- the final version 18 ultimately was posted on the Internet? 19 A Yes. The -- the one that was dated December, and 20 I think approved in January of '98. 21 Q And do you know who posted that? 22 A Rod Keller was one of the people that posted it. 23 I think I also posted it. 24 Q And was that, sir, one of -- was -- was the charge 25 of murder or the -- the attack on Scientology religion and 0244
1 beliefs one of your goals? 2 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 3 THE COURT: I suppose he can say yes or no to 4 that, so -- 5 A Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- overruled. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q And -- did you, in or around this period of time, 9 which is October, November, December of '97, have any 10 discussions with Mr. Dandar about that, do you recall? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And the first check you had given, I think you've 13 already said, was October 6th of '97? 14 A Right. 15 MR. FUGATE: Now, could I have a moment, your 16 Honor, to go back -- 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Can you tell us, if you recall, what discussions 20 you were having with Mr. Dandar during this period of time? 21 A Well, principally, in terms of holding Scientology 22 accountable for murder. I mean, that was the essence of 23 these discussions. The term "murder" was freely used. And 24 that was the -- the crux of it. 25 Q And directing your attention to paragraph 6, is -- 0245
1 is generally what's set out in paragraph 6 -- 2 A In the affidavit? 3 Q I'm sorry. In the affidavit. 4 Is that what you're talking about? 5 A Yes. 6 Well, you know, yes, with respect to this 7 particular first amended complaint. I mean, obviously, I'm 8 talking about a lot of other things in there, but -- 9 Q Now, you say in there that Mr. Dandar briefed you 10 on confidential information. Can you tell us what that was, 11 the best you understood? 12 A Well, I think at this time -- at that time, in 13 October of '97, this -- this complaint was confidential. I 14 think I've testified already about the settlement 15 discussions that were held in '98, in the summer of '98 -- 16 Q We covered that, I think, on Friday, in a posting 17 that you made, is that correct? 18 A Right. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm confused. What's 20 that? 21 MR. FUGATE: We had covered that -- he had 22 testified on Friday -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I got you. The 24 confidential information. Right. 25 MR. FUGATE: And Judge, what I'll do also is 0246
1 try to go back and recall what the posting number 2 was so that we have that as an exhibit for 6. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Now, in the letter -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Go ahead. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Excuse me. 10 In the -- in paragraph 6 of the affidavit, you 11 indicate that, "His statements concerning case control 12 became increasingly untrue throughout my involvement in the 13 case, when Mr. Dandar would do things in the litigation 14 designed to satisfy my wishes and thus get more money from 15 me." 16 Can you tell us what you mean or what you're 17 referring to in that statement? 18 A Well, specifically, you know, go back to that 19 meeting in Philadelphia, which I think was May of '99. I 20 mean, this was a really important meeting in the sense that 21 the -- of focusing on the Scientology, quote, aspects of 22 this case. You know, Jesse Prince was down here in 23 Clearwater, you know, making himself available to Mr. Dandar 24 all the time. So was Stacy Brooks. She was frequently down 25 here at that time. And you know, I wanted him to put these 0247
1 two people to more use and to put their output to more use 2 with respect to this case on the Scientology issues. 3 THE COURT: I'm very confused. This meeting 4 that we're talking about is in May of '99? 5 THE WITNESS: That's the example that I'm 6 talking about here, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. The -- let me make sure I 8 have this correct. 9 The first amended complaint has a certificate 10 of service dated 4 December of '97, and the first 11 check was written October of '97. So we're jumping 12 ahead a couple years here to this discussion, is 13 that right? 14 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Well, were you referring to, in paragraph 6, the 18 portion of Mr. Dandar's letters, I think, which were in 102, 19 Defendant's Exhibit 102, about, "Pursuant to Florida Bar 20 Rule 4-1.8F, the rules regulating the Florida Bar is a 21 reminder pursuant to those rules that your donation does not 22 entitle you to control or participation in the litigation"? 23 A Well, yes. I was referring to that, but -- 24 Yeah. 25 Q Now -- 0248
1 THE COURT: The meeting that -- 2 A You know what -- 3 THE COURT: I've got to go back to this meeting 4 in '99. This is the meeting where you told 5 Mr. Dandar you wanted him to in effect get 6 Scientology more involved in the case? Is that the 7 meeting you referred to? 8 THE WITNESS: No. No. Scientology was already 9 clearly involved in the case. This was to focus 10 more on the Scientology aspects of the case. 11 THE COURT: That was a meeting in '99? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. FUGATE: It's in paragraph 15, Judge, if 14 you want to look at the affidavit. 15 THE COURT: Well, no. I really want to hear 16 what he has to say right now, not an affidavit 17 that's been filed. I want to hear what he has to 18 testify. 19 So in '99, long after these amended complaints 20 were being filed, this is when you're telling me 21 that you told Mr. Dandar you wanted him to stress 22 the Scientology aspects of the case. Is that it? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, the framework 24 for the case had already been laid with the first 25 amended complaint, you know, in terms of 0249
1 Scientology's overall involvement and the 2 involvement of senior people in the church. The 3 question in May, '99, is, okay, well, the framework 4 is there, but you know, why are we not pushing the 5 Scientology aspects of this case even more? 6 And you know -- 7 THE COURT: Like what? In a trial or what? I 8 mean, I'm -- I'm kind of confused. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, in -- 10 THE COURT: What -- what are you talking about? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, for example, you 12 know, this -- Jesse Prince had already written his 13 affidavit, which was basically the thing that this 14 whole -- this whole case eventually got based on. 15 Up until that time, there was nothing to even back 16 up the allegations in this first amended complaint. 17 And by then, I think it had evolved into other 18 amended complaints. 19 But the other thing that was of particular 20 importance was the depositions and things like that 21 of Scientologists who were involved in the handling 22 of Lisa McPherson; the people like Kartuzinski who 23 were the senior case supervisor -- you know, as 24 these things were coming up, you know, Mr. Dandar 25 was not -- you know, he wasn't able to understand 0250
1 how -- according to Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince, 2 how you could get more information out of these 3 people by turning the deposition into what was 4 basically a Scientology type auditing session and -- 5 you know, the way questions would be asked, the -- 6 the terminology that you would use when asking the 7 questions, while still, you know, being something 8 that would be perfectly understandable to you or me. 9 You know, there were certain catch phrases that 10 would sort of -- as they described it to me, Stacy 11 and Jesse, that would sort of snap a Scientologist 12 into a situation where they felt they were in an 13 auditing session. 14 THE COURT: So that's what you were talking 15 about in May of '99? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. That, you know -- and 17 as I said, the -- the whole concept of the senior 18 people of Scientology's involvement in this thing in 19 a major way. 20 THE COURT: Which had already been put in a 21 complaint two years ago? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, they weren't named in the 23 complaint -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: -- two years ago. I mean, there 0251
1 was an early attempt to do that, but it didn't 2 happen. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 Continue. 5 I don't know. Maybe Mr. Miscavige isn't in 6 this first amended complaint. I'd have to look. I 7 know -- 8 THE WITNESS: You know, Mr. Miscavige, Ray 9 Mithoff and Marty Rathbun are not mentioned in 10 there. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, if I may just -- 12 THE COURT: The fifth amended complaint that I 13 have, where Mr. Miscavige is named, apparently is 14 not the only fifth amended complaint there is. 15 MR. FUGATE: That's correct. 16 THE COURT: So my -- my book, you know, my 17 compilation is not complete. That's why part of me 18 doesn't know when it was these people started being 19 added as parties versus when they may have -- I 20 haven't gone back and read this first amended 21 complaint in the depth to know whether Mr. Miscavige 22 is mentioned in here or not. 23 MR. DANDAR: He's mentioned as a party in the 24 first fifth amended complaint filed in September of 25 '99. With Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun -- 0252
1 THE COURT: Give me just a minute here. 2 As we said -- 3 Let me look at this first amended complaint. 4 MR. WEINBERG: His name is mentioned in it but 5 not as a party. 6 THE COURT: Well, let me see what it says so I 7 can make any sense out of what this witness is 8 saying. 9 As a matter of fact, seems as if it's 10:25, so 10 let's take a morning break. Want to do that? 11 And this is not one of those times when I want 12 this witness to be conferring. As I said, he has 13 been on the stand. He's not to be talking to 14 anyone, including his lawyer. But give you the 15 permission, when there's long breaks, just as I give 16 a defendant in a criminal case, permission. I don't 17 know that I have to do that. This is not one of 18 those times. So I don't want anybody talking to 19 him. 20 Mr. Minton, do you understand? You're on the 21 stand. You're not to discuss your testimony, unless 22 I give you permission, with anyone, and that 23 includes your lawyer. 24 THE WITNESS: I understood that Friday; I 25 understand it today, your Honor. 0253
1 THE COURT: Good. 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, while we're on the 3 record, before you take the break, my next series of 4 questions, we're going to go to the phone records 5 which I have placed back up beside Mr. Minton. And 6 if I could ask him to look through those on the 7 break to -- and these are the records that we talked 8 about on Friday -- to look for numbers that he -- 9 telephone numbers in the toll records or phone 10 records that he can identify, that'll help speed 11 things up. 12 THE COURT: Well, he could do that if he 13 doesn't need a break. He's a witness. He's been on 14 the stand. He probably is working harder than any 15 of us. So my guess is, if he needs a break, he 16 ought to have one. 17 MR. FUGATE: I just didn't want -- 18 THE COURT: So if you want to have a break, and 19 then if you have time to do whatever he wants you to 20 do -- 21 (A recess was taken.) 22 THE COURT: Sorry, I had a couple things I had 23 to attend to. 24 You may continue. 25 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 0254
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Mr. Minton, I know we've jumped around a little 3 bit, but I want to return your attention to paragraph 6 of 4 your second affidavit. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 105 marked for identification.) 6 MR. FUGATE: And I'm going to, if I may, your 7 Honor, approach -- I've already had the clerk mark, 8 and I've given Mr. Dandar a copy, of Defendant's 9 105 -- marked 105. Give a copy to the witness. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Now, sir, you indicate in paragraph 6 that, 12 "Following the receipt of the hundred thousand dollars," 13 which we've established is October 6th, "Mr. Dandar 14 immediately began consulting with me about the litigation." 15 Do you see that you made that statement in the affidavit? 16 A Yeah. Yes, I do. 17 Q Now, I'm going to ask you if you would, look at 18 Defendant's Exhibit 105. 19 MR. FUGATE: And if there's no objection, I 20 would move it into evidence, your Honor. It's a 21 compilation of phone calls Mr. Dandar responded in 22 a -- a response, indicating that he had done a 23 compilation of calls that he identified between 24 himself and Mr. Minton. 25 THE COURT: You're introducing 105? 0255
1 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Any objection? 3 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 4 THE COURT: It'll be received. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit Number 105 received in evidence.) 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q If you will flip over to the telephone log of 8 calls from Ken Dandar to Robert Minton, do you see a date of 9 10-10-97? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you see a duration of 41.50? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q Do you recall, on October 10th, 1997, having any 14 particular conversation with Mr. Dandar? 15 A I'm afraid I don't, Mr. Fugate. I mean, obviously 16 I had one, but I don't remember that specific call. 17 Q And with -- this appears to be a compilation of 18 phone calls identified by Mr. Dandar to you, minus the year 19 1998. 20 A Well, there are some calls here on this list for 21 1998. 22 Q I know. I'm just identifying what the -- the 23 pleading indicates. 24 A Oh, sorry. 25 Q But at any rate, do you -- would this -- would 0256
1 this in your judgment comprise all of the phone calls that 2 you think you had with Mr. Dandar between the years '97 3 through 2002? 4 A Calls that he made to me? 5 Q Yeah. 6 A No. 7 Q All right. And did you use -- 8 Well, tell us what phones that you utilized, as 9 best you can recall, in communicating with Mr. Dandar in 10 '97, '98, '99, 2000, 2001, 2002. 11 A Well, he could have called me at my house in 12 Boston or my house in New Hampshire or my cell phone, which 13 I think it, in '97 and '98, was principally a Boston-based 14 cell phone number, and in -- I believe in sometime in '99, 15 it switched over to a New Hampshire cell phone number and 16 continued with a New Hampshire cell phone number for some 17 time, even after I got a Florida cell phone number, I think, 18 sometime in 2000. 19 Q Do you see that the -- on the posting that was 20 admitted earlier, the October 10th, it says Greenwich Mean 21 Time or GMT. What does that mean? 22 THE COURT: Tell me where you are again? 23 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. I don't have 24 the number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 103. 0257
1 MR. FUGATE: 103? The posting that's dated 2 October 10th, 1997? 3 THE COURT: Now, what is it you're referring to 4 there? I've got it now. 5 MR. FUGATE: I'm referring to where it says 6 "time," or what appears to be a time line. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Can you tell us what that is, GMT? If you know. 9 A Well, GMT means Greenwich Mean Time or Meridian 10 Time. I'm not sure. But I think Mean Time. 11 Q Do you know how that translates to the actual time 12 this posting might have been made? 13 A Well, if my computer is set correctly for the 14 time, and I'm in Eastern time zone, it would be five hours 15 difference from Greenwich Mean Time. 16 Q And if you look at 105, it appears there was a 17 40-minute call on that same day -- 18 A Right. 19 Q -- according to Mr. Dandar's log, to you? 20 A Right. 21 The -- the news reader, the software that one 22 would use to post a message on the Internet like this, I 23 can't remember whether it already allows for Greenwich Mean 24 Time or whether it subtracts it automatically. 25 But yeah, it would appear to be about the same 0258
1 time as this call that's listed on the sheet. 2 Q But in any event, the check that you wrote was 3 October 6th, 1997, is that correct? 4 A Yes. That's correct. 5 Q And that was 93-A. And we have the phone records, 6 which will speak for themselves. 7 Let me ask you this question, sir. I put up there 8 beside you Defendant's Exhibit 97, which were also phone 9 records. 10 MR. FUGATE: And I would move those into 11 evidence, your Honor. I think Mr. Dandar had an 12 opportunity -- 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Well, I guess I should ask you if you can identify 15 them first. 16 MR. FUGATE: But he has had an opportunity to 17 look at them, and it's my understanding they are not 18 his law firm phone records. 19 THE COURT: Do you have any objection? 20 MR. DANDAR: I do not. 21 THE COURT: I think he already has identified 22 them. I think the -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I can't remember. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE CLERK: 97. 0259
1 THE COURT: Go ahead, if you can't remember. I 2 think you did, but go ahead. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Do you -- have you had a chance to look at those 5 phone records up there in Defendant's Exhibit 97? 6 A I've looked through some of them, yes; you know -- 7 Q And would you identify -- 8 A -- just -- 9 Q -- for the record what they are, sir? 10 A They're the -- the phone records of mine -- well, 11 they're the phone records of all the phones that the LMT had 12 that were all booked in my name for credit purposes. 13 Q And do you -- do you see where they begin being 14 listed to Dandar and Dandar? And that changes after several 15 months? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Can you advise the court how that happened, if you 18 know? 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What happened, now? 20 What's changed? 21 MR. FUGATE: The -- the records that he has 22 are -- he's just testified, are the Nextel mobile 23 phone or cell phone records that list to him and 24 LMT. But these are the ones, if you'll recall, that 25 started out, the first three months, going to Dandar 0260
1 and Dandar -- 2 THE COURT: Oh, right. 3 MR. FUGATE: -- and I'm asking if he knows how 4 that came to be. 5 A I don't know how it came to be, other than -- 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q If you don't know, you don't know. 8 A Well -- 9 No, I just don't know. 10 Q Okay. Have you looked at the phone records to see 11 if you can identify the folks who had -- 12 Well, first of all, can you tell us what the 13 Nextel phones are, if you know; the phone service that's 14 depicted in those records? 15 A Yes. They're cell phones that have the 16 capability -- at least here in Florida I know they have the 17 capability of doing a sort of intercom system between 18 parties with similar cell phones. 19 Q And can you tell by looking at those records who 20 all of the phones belong to that were being paid for by you? 21 A Well, the -- the only two numbers that were 22 instantly recognizable were those of Stacy Brooks and Jesse 23 Prince. 24 Q Okay. 25 A You know, the others, some of the numbers were 0261
1 consecutive numbers after the Jesse Prince number -- I mean, 2 consecutive phone numbers -- you know, 09, 10, 11, 12, being 3 the last two digits. And some of those were given to other 4 people at the LMT. And I'm not sure who had which number, 5 other than Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince. 6 THE COURT: Does that mean -- is what you're 7 saying -- 'cause I don't know -- that you can give 8 several people telephones, and if they make calls, 9 then those show up on the same bill? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Even with 11 separate telephone numbers. Right. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q And it's a -- the Nextel phone, then -- was this a 15 communication device used by you and others at LMT? 16 A Yes, it was. 17 Q And each person who you chose, I guess, was issued 18 a phone there at LMT? 19 A Well, Stacy Brooks got people phones. 20 Q Or someone did. 21 A I didn't have anything to do with it, but she did. 22 Q Now, did you look through those numbers to see if 23 you identified calls to any numbers you identified -- that 24 you would identify as belonging to Mr. Dandar, either cell, 25 office or otherwise? 0262
1 A Yes. I saw numerous ones to a cell phone 2 belonging to Mr. Dandar and to his office cell phone. 3 Q And did you notice whether those were made by 4 phones -- a phone used by you, sir? 5 A You know, I've got -- I didn't notice. And I'll 6 be honest with you, I don't even remember what my cell phone 7 number was. 8 Q Well, I'll come back to that at some point, then. 9 I'll ask you to look at those over the lunch hour and come 10 back to that question. 11 A Okay. 12 Q But in any event, sir -- 13 THE COURT: Are those in evidence now? 14 MR. DANDAR: Well, since he doesn't know it's 15 his phone, I move them out of evidence. 16 THE COURT: I tend to agree, if he can't 17 identify them. 18 MR. DANDAR: And if he's going to do it over 19 lunch, I hope he doesn't talk to someone about it. 20 MR. FUGATE: Well, I won't talk to him about 21 it, Judge. I asked him to look at them. I asked 22 him to do it over the break. And I'll come back to 23 it. 24 THE COURT: Okay. What is the number again? 25 MR. FUGATE: 97, Judge. 0263
1 THE COURT: I guess what I'm saying is we 2 can't -- I have a stack of records there. The ones 3 that would be relevant, I take it, to this 4 proceeding, would be calls that would have been 5 billed to this mega-phone system, or whatever it is, 6 that came from Mr. Dandar or went to Mr. Dandar, and 7 those are the ones that would be of interest. So if 8 he can't tell us which ones those are, well, then 9 the rest of it, presumably -- 10 MR. FUGATE: I understand, Judge. And I'm not 11 going to -- what I'm going to do is move on. I will 12 ask him that -- if he would, at some point, take a 13 look at the records and see if he can't recognize 14 any of the numbers, whether it be his, LMT's 15 numbers, Mr. Dandar's numbers. He generally 16 recognized them, I think, as the LMT phone 17 records -- 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. FUGATE: -- but I'm going to ask him some 20 specifics. And rather than take the court's time, 21 I'll ask him to look at that sometime over the lunch 22 hour. And I'll come back to that. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: But I will complete the question 25 area, Judge, if I may. 0264
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q What you were indicating here is -- in 6, is that 3 you had communication with Mr. Dandar about the litigation. 4 And let me ask you, sir, did -- was the communication 5 telephone only? 6 A No, sir. 7 Q Can you tell us what other forms of communication 8 you had with Mr. Dandar about the wrongful death case? 9 A Well, every time we would meet, the subject would 10 come up. I mean, it's -- you know, and up until, you know, 11 fall, say, of '99 -- you know, I wasn't down here in Florida 12 on a regular basis. You know, it was an irregular basis or, 13 you know, we would have a meeting up in Boston, which I 14 think I've testified about already. 15 But once I was down here, once the LMT was being 16 set up in late '99, you know, being formed in late '99, and 17 once we purchased the building down here, I was down here a 18 lot more in the year 2000 and, you know, we would see each 19 other regularly. 20 Q Face-to-face meetings? 21 A Face-to-face meetings. 22 Q Were there any other forms of communication 23 besides telephone calls, face-to-face meetings? 24 A E-mails. 25 Q E-mails? 0265
1 A I don't believe we had much in the way of fax 2 communication. There would have been some, but I don't 3 think there were significant. 4 Q And what about by mail? 5 A Other than these letters that Mr. Dandar sent to 6 me, I don't -- I don't think we had much other, you know, 7 mail communication. You know, there were courier packages 8 sent back and forth -- 9 Q Well, you make the statement here in paragraph 6, 10 "His statements concerning case control became increasingly 11 untrue throughout my involvement in the case, when 12 Mr. Dandar would do things in the litigation designed to 13 satisfy my wishes and to thus get more money from me." Can 14 you tell us what you meant by that -- 15 A Well -- 16 Q -- statement? 17 A -- fairly soon after the first check -- and you 18 know, Mr. Dandar began talking to me about this case, you 19 know, in some detail. You know, things that were going -- 20 you know, as time went on, as things were happening in the 21 case, you know, he was filling me in about them, you know, 22 keeping me abreast of what was going on in the case. 23 You know, shortly after the first check -- you 24 know, I can't say it was four days later or 10 days later or 25 30 days later -- but Mr. Dandar was, you know, extremely 0266
1 curious about whether this was going to be a one-shot thing, 2 a continuing thing, or -- or what, with respect to the 3 funding of the litigation. And you know, I guess in some 4 respects, his information about the case was, you know, sort 5 of his carrot on the stick, and the money that was coming to 6 support the litigation was sort of the carrot on the stick 7 that I was carrying. And you know, it was sort of a mutual 8 situation where, you know, in order to make sure I was happy 9 with, you know, my participation in this litigation, that, 10 you know, I would get information about it. 11 Q Now, on May 3rd, 2002, in this hearing, Mr. Dandar 12 made a statement something to the effect, "I will say 13 absolutely, positively, I never met with Robert Minton to 14 discuss anything that had to do with pleadings, parties, 15 adding on parties, anything like that." Is that accurate, 16 to your recollection of the meetings that you've had with 17 Mr. Dandar that you've indicated? 18 A It's not accurate. 19 Q Now, he also, in that same day, made a statement, 20 "I tried to gather information from the defendants. They 21 were all pleading the Fifth Amendment on advice of counsel 22 because of the criminal charges were still there, and I was 23 going through all those amendments based upon what experts 24 and consultants were telling me, and never had any input 25 from Mr. Minton whatsoever. Never. Not even till today. 0267
1 Not even up till today. Never." Is that accurate, based on 2 your recollection of the meetings -- 3 A It -- 4 Q -- calls, et cetera? 5 A It's a totally false statement that he made. 6 THE COURT: Well, totally false. Were they 7 taking the Fifth Amendment or weren't they? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 9 THE COURT: Well, then it's not a totally false 10 statement. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, this man only knows 13 about what he knows about, so you can't read a whole 14 statement like that and then get him to say 15 something's totally false. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I read it so it would be in 17 context. The part I was referring to was the 18 meetings, contact -- 19 THE COURT: Well, then let's hear when they 20 were. You can't just leave something like that out 21 in space. I mean what meetings? When? Let's see 22 what he can tell us. 23 MR. FUGATE: Okay. We're going to go through 24 that, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Well, it seems like this might be a 0268
1 good time. I mean, this is -- these are one of 2 these things -- there are certain things that are 3 critical to this hearing. Much of what we're going 4 through is not, quite frankly. This is. So I would 5 expect you might want to deal with it -- 6 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge. 7 THE COURT: -- all at one place, not a little 8 here, a little there, a little there. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Well, let's go to, if we can, then, paragraph 8. 11 We're talking about the agreement of -- your initial 12 agreement. We'll start there and move through the meetings. 13 A Right. 14 Q If you -- 15 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I'm sorry, 16 Mr. Fugate. But you were on paragraph 6 and you 17 said, "What kind of things would he do to get more 18 money?" As far as I know, I guess you're done. 19 There are two things. He would discuss the case 20 with him in some detail, keep him abreast. And 21 after the first check, we started talking about the 22 carrots on the stick, and I guess that's the end of 23 it. Is that all? 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, may I inquire, then? 25 0269
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Do you understand, would you go through, as best 3 you can recall, the meetings that you had and/or 4 communications that you had with Mr. Dandar involving 5 obtaining funds from you to put into the litigation of Lisa 6 McPherson's wrongful death case? 7 A Well, the -- I would -- I would suppose that the 8 most important one revolved around the -- the entire concept 9 of the estate agreeing to donate the bulk of the proceeds 10 from this litigation to an anticult group which I was 11 involved in. And that started, you know, without -- two 12 months after the first check went to Mr. Dandar. That 13 check, October, '97 -- you know, the next time that I 14 believe that I saw Mr. -- well, I didn't see him then in 15 October, but when I saw him the next time after that first 16 check, I believe that was December the 1st at a lunch at the 17 Tampa Club in Tampa. 18 Q Of 1997? 19 A Of 1997. Mr. Dandar took me there for lunch when 20 I came down here. I don't remember when I came, but you 21 know, sometime around December the 1st. 22 And that's when the whole subject started about 23 this -- 24 THE COURT: I really think he's off into 25 another area. It's probably another paragraph 0270
1 dealing with this. This is -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Well, it's actually -- it is, 3 Judge, but I think it's a precursor to the question 4 that you asked. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I hear "do things in 6 the litigation." What I'm concerned about here is 7 an allegation you have made that Mr. Dandar did 8 things in the litigation based on input and requests 9 from Mr. Minton. That's what I'm talking about. 10 Not -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Right. 12 THE COURT: Not this agreement or this other 13 thing. That's another -- that's another -- I mean, 14 you lawyers stood up and said, "There are three 15 things we are talking about: One, money that wasn't 16 reported; two, this agreement; and three, 17 Mr. Minton's control of the case and getting the 18 estate to file pleadings and control this case based 19 on Mr. Minton's involvement." 20 So I don't care about an agreement -- that's 21 another area. 22 MR. FUGATE: I'll come back to that. But what 23 I'll do -- and maybe the way to do it, Judge, will 24 be -- 25 THE COURT: You can come back to it, but I've 0271
1 got down two things: "Mr. Dandar would do things in 2 the litigation designed to satisfy my wishes and 3 thus get more money from me." And I am asking, as 4 the trier of the fact in this hearing, whether he 5 has anything more than the two things that he's 6 mentioned, only one -- none of which are anything -- 7 one is, discuss the case in some detail, something 8 about a carrot on a stick, and some agreement. 9 What did he do in the litigation, "designed to 10 satisfy my wishes --" that's what he said -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Mm-hmm. 12 THE COURT: -- "and thus get more money from 13 me"? 14 So if he's got more, I want to hear them. Now. 15 MR. FUGATE: Now. 16 THE COURT: Yes. We're on paragraph 6. Before 17 we go to paragraph 8, I want to know what else there 18 is. 19 I mean, the agreement -- you can talk about 20 that later. 21 MR. FUGATE: I'll come back to that, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Let me ask you this, we -- we have discussed 25 before the break the first check, which was 93-A, which was 0272
1 in October. Did you receive any communication about the 2 litigation in October of 1997? 3 A Yes. As I testified to a little while ago, I did 4 receive a draft of the first amended complaint. 5 Q And did you communicate yourself, sir, with 6 Mr. Dandar about, as the judge said you said, your wishes in 7 the litigation in October, November of 1997? 8 A Well, the first communication of any consequence 9 concerning this was about that I wanted Scientology charged 10 with murder. 11 Q And do you see that -- a telephone communication 12 that's reflected, although you don't recall it, on the 10th 13 of October, 1997, of some 41 minutes, in Defendant's Exhibit 14 105? 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Objection. Asked and 16 answered. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 That's -- that's -- that's another thing. 19 Okay. Now, what else? 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Okay. Do you -- now, would you look at 22 Defendant's Exhibit 93-B. 23 A Yes. That's a check for a hundred thousand, dated 24 February the 5th, 1998. 25 Q Okay. Now, do you recall any conversations, 0273
1 meetings, et cetera, with Mr. Dandar, about that check and 2 the litigation? 3 A I believe this check was given to Mr. Dandar 4 shortly after he was in Boston in 19 -- you know, in 5 January, 1998. He might have also been there in February, 6 1998. I can't remember exactly when he was there. But 7 there were two instances he was there. One had to do with 8 the deposition that occurred on January 13th, 1998, and the 9 other, I believe, had to do with him taking a deposition -- 10 an unrelated deposition, you know, in -- at Mass. General 11 Hospital. 12 Q And the deposition was your deposition in the 13 wrongful death case? 14 A Yes, it was. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And Mr. Dandar and I went out to dinner at some 17 stage. And you know, I don't recall anything specific that 18 related to anything that I asked Mr. Dandar to do at that 19 time. I believe the -- by that time, the case was more or 20 less set, in terms of what was going on. I don't think 21 there was anything that I asked him about then. 22 Q Well, the question -- 23 A It was -- 24 Q -- that comes to mind is, do you recall why there 25 was a need for another check in February of 1998? Do you 0274
1 recall anything about that? 2 A Well, I remember that, you know, the first amended 3 complaint had already been done by that time. And you know, 4 Mr. Dandar -- you know, it was always, you know, that he 5 needs more money for expert witnesses; he needs more money 6 for -- you know, I don't remember at that time exactly what 7 went on. But he just needed more money. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to find something, your 9 Honor -- 10 I'll come back -- 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q The next check is November -- 13 Well, what is the next check there? I won't lead. 14 A 93-C is March 30th. 15 Q Of? 16 A Of '98. For a hundred thousand dollars. 17 Q Do you recall any meetings, conversations, 18 communications about that check? 19 A I don't. 20 Q And the date, again, was March -- 21 A 30th, 1998. 22 Q And prior to that, the check before it had been 23 February 5th, 1998? 24 A Yeah. 25 Now -- 0275
1 THE COURT: I don't have a February check. Is 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. There's one for February 4 the 5th, 1998, 93-B. 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't have a March -- 6 THE COURT: Oh, I see it. February 5th. I was 7 thinking that looked like December. That's another 8 one of those hard ones to read. 9 MR. FUGATE: That's the worst one, I think. 10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we don't have a March 30th, 11 1998 check for a hundred thousand dollars in 12 evidence as 93-C. 13 THE COURT: That's the one that looks like 14 November 30th. 15 MR. FUGATE: No. That is November on mine. 16 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 17 Well, there is a March 30th, 1998 check too. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Is that one of the ones that we discussed there 20 was no record that we have at this time for; no check? 21 THE WITNESS: You know, if I looked in my 22 briefcase, your Honor, I believe the bank turned 23 that check over. 24 THE COURT: Go ahead and look in your -- 25 THE WITNESS: Okay. 0276
1 THE COURT: You can look at anything you have 2 in your possession to assist you in answering any of 3 these questions. 4 I'm not sure exactly what we're doing here. 5 What we're doing is trying to get a list of all the 6 things that Mr. Minton was referring to in his 7 affidavit when he said, "Mr. Dandar would do things 8 in the litigation designed to satisfy my wishes and 9 thus get more money from me." 10 MR. FUGATE: I understand, Judge. I'm trying 11 to at least key it to something that there is an 12 exhibit for. 13 THE COURT: Well, you know, if -- without 14 referring him to an exhibit, gee, he wrote the 15 affidavit. He ought to know what he was talking 16 about. I mean, I know for a fact that he didn't 17 want Miscavige added, and it was added. So that 18 wasn't really, apparently, according to his wishes. 19 I know for a fact that he wanted the case dismissed 20 or settled and that didn't happen. 21 So I know two things that he wanted that he 22 didn't get. So what I'm trying to find out is what 23 did he want that he did get? 24 One, I guess, is an amended complaint, he's 25 saying? 0277
1 What else is there? 2 MR. FUGATE: I disagree with the first comment 3 you made, I think, from his testimony on Friday, but 4 I'll go back and ask him on that. 5 THE COURT: About what? Miscavige? 6 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Well, you can disagree all you 8 want. I've heard his testimony. I know what he 9 said. He didn't want him added because he thought 10 it was going to cost more money. I know what 11 Ms. Brooks said is exactly the same thing. And I 12 know what he said in deposition. So you don't need 13 to go back. That's clear. He did not want 14 Miscavige added and he was added. So that isn't 15 very good control. 16 He wanted the case dismissed and he didn't get 17 it. He wanted the case settled and he didn't get 18 it. 19 That's the type of thing I think of as 20 controlling the litigation. Thus far, I'm not 21 hearing much to substantiate number 6. If there is 22 something, I want to hear it. I mean, I don't know 23 what these checks -- what going through all these 24 checks are. 25 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I -- it's a way that I had 0278
1 to ask him the questions -- 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FUGATE: -- without leading, I thought. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Did you hear the question that the judge is 6 posing? 7 A Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: And I -- I think there's an 9 important aspect here that hasn't been testified 10 about, your Honor -- 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE WITNESS: -- regarding that adding 13 Miscavige situation, and that meeting at 14 Mr. Dandar's office in his new office on Kennedy 15 Avenue or Boulevard, whatever it is, after he had 16 moved from Cypress Street. 17 You know, I -- I made it clear that, you know, 18 that I thought adding Miscavige would severely 19 complicate the case in terms of the cost that would 20 be added to the case. At the end of that meeting, I 21 went up to Mr. Dandar and I said to Mr. Dandar, 22 "Look, whatever we decide to do, I will support you 23 fully on it." But it was, you know, his decision -- 24 THE COURT: I understand what you're saying. 25 THE WITNESS: -- and Dell Liebreich's decision. 0279
1 THE COURT: Look, you took a -- whatever your 2 testimony is, you sat around, you took a vote, you 3 discussed it, whatever it was. It was your 4 preference in this meeting that he not be added. 5 THE WITNESS: Well -- 6 THE COURT: You testified to that. 7 THE WITNESS: That's right. 8 But at the same meeting, you know -- I mean, 9 the meeting is -- is over, but you know, this -- 10 Mr. Dandar would not have added Miscavige to that -- 11 this case unless I would told -- I told him that I 12 would support him. I mean, money was the key here. 13 THE COURT: Your vote was no and he was added. 14 I mean, let's not kid ourselves here. Let's get the 15 facts. You said no. If that's what you decide to 16 do, that's fine. But you voted no. Stacy Brooks 17 voted yes. 18 THE WITNESS: There wasn't a vote, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Dandar voted yes. 20 Well, you told us the other day, as I recall, 21 that Stacy Brooks was the most excited about adding 22 him. Dandar was very excited about adding him. You 23 were against it. We know that from your testimony 24 and others that Garko was against it. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 0280
1 THE COURT: And so you were discussing this. I 2 don't know if there was a vote or not. Some were 3 for it, some were against it. You were against it. 4 THE WITNESS: I was against it because of the 5 cost involved. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: The additional cost that was 8 involved. But at the end I told Mr. Dandar that I 9 would support him fully in it if he decided to do 10 it. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Was there any discussion in that meeting about the 13 cost of -- of adding Mr. Miscavige? 14 A Yes. I said that, you know, I thought this would 15 severely lengthen the case, substantially add to the cost of 16 the case, and I was the one being asked to pay the cost. 17 Q Were you told by anyone there that it would cost 18 more money, other than your observation? 19 A Mr. Dandar agreed that it would cost more money. 20 I mean, it was obvious. 21 Q Did you agree to continue to fund after that 22 meeting? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q And I think you answered this, but was there a 25 vote or was there a discussion? 0281
1 A There was a discussion. There wasn't a vote. 2 Q Now, in addition to that area that we've just now 3 gone over, were there any other areas, consistent with the 4 judge's question, that you can recall where there was 5 discussions, meetings, correspondence, whatever, about the 6 direction and the funding of the litigation? 7 A The meeting in Philadelphia, where, at the end, I 8 gave Mr. Dandar a check for 250,000, which I think was 9 August 26th. 10 THE COURT: What was that meeting? That's not 11 the September meeting that I've heard about? 12 THE WITNESS: No. The September -- no, no, it 13 wasn't, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: What was the meeting about then in 15 August? What is it you told him to do that he did 16 in the litigation that was on direction from you in 17 August? 18 THE WITNESS: About focusing on the Scientology 19 aspects of the case; going into the whole issue of 20 how to -- how to handle witnesses who were going to 21 be deposed; you know, Scientology people. 22 THE COURT: What was the date of that again? 23 THE WITNESS: The meeting was August 26th. 24 THE COURT: Of '99? 25 THE WITNESS: Of '99, yes. 0282
1 THE COURT: Okay. I have written down in my 2 notes, right before the break, that was a meeting in 3 May of '99. 4 THE WITNESS: I apologize, your Honor. It's 5 August 26th. 6 THE COURT: Where I wrote May, should be 7 August? 8 THE WITNESS: It should be, yes. 9 THE COURT: I could have written the wrong date 10 down, but -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 12 THE COURT: -- we're talking about one meeting 13 here. 14 THE WITNESS: That's right. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Well, actually, let me go back to that, because I 17 think we -- we -- 18 A We skirted around that the other day. 19 Q Yeah. 20 Again, the check that is at issue there is 21 8-27-99. 22 A That -- 23 Q Could you tell the court how the check is dated 24 8-27-99? 25 A Well, in that particular account, I didn't have 0283
1 enough money, and so I told Mr. Dandar, "I'm going to 2 transfer the money tomorrow, so I'm just going to date the 3 check tomorrow." 4 Q Okay. So the meetings took place -- 5 A On the 26th, both before and after dinner. 6 Q All right. Now, actually, you had said that on 7 Friday and we didn't get back to that. 8 What were -- who were -- 9 Well, stop. 10 26th, did you have a meeting? 11 A Yes. You know, I look at it as one continuous 12 meeting, but it was in fact two parts; a before-dinner 13 meeting and an after-dinner meeting. 14 Q All right. Can you go through then, sir, who was 15 present at the before-dinner meeting? 16 A Stacy Brooks, myself and Mr. Dandar. 17 Q Was there anybody else other than yourself, Stacy 18 and Mr. Dandar? 19 A Not during that before-dinner meeting. 20 Q And can you tell us, if you recall, what was 21 discussed at the before-dinner meeting? 22 A You know, I remember more about the after-dinner 23 than the first. I think it was all the same -- as I said, 24 it was all the same meeting. We broke to have dinner with 25 two other people. 0284
1 Q Who were those folks? 2 A Rod Keller and Charlotte Kates, both from 3 Philadelphia. 4 Q And after the dinner, what happened in the 5 continuation of the meeting? 6 A Well, again, it was discussing how to go about 7 handling depositions of Scientologists who were going to be 8 deposed in this case, and how Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince 9 needed to help Mr. Dandar formulate the types of questions 10 that would essentially put the Scientologists who were going 11 to be questioned into a quasi-like auditing situation in 12 Scientology. 13 Both Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince were highly 14 trained auditors in Scientology. They knew how -- 15 THE COURT: What did you say -- I'm sorry -- 16 again; semi-auditing state, did you say? 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 You know, I'm probably not the best to testify 19 about this, but you know, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince, 20 because of their expertise as highly trained 21 auditors in Scientology, knew how to get truthful 22 information from Scientologists, based on their 23 training. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q And you learned this from who; this information 0285
1 that you've just imparted? 2 A From Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince. 3 Q All right. 4 A And others. And other people who were auditors in 5 Scientology. 6 Q And I guess -- can you explain then how that -- 7 what discussion you were having with Mr. Dandar about that? 8 A Well, that in order to -- in order to try to get 9 the truth out of any of these people, that you had to resort 10 to techniques that played on the -- the deponent's -- played 11 on the deponent's Scientology backgrounds. 12 THE COURT: In other words, are you suggesting 13 that your information was that these same deponents 14 would lie unless you got them to this semi-auditing 15 state? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Or that they would be less than 19 truthful. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q And this was information imparted to you by Jesse 23 Prince and by Stacy Brooks? 24 A Right. 25 Q Now -- 0286
1 A And you know, in addition -- 2 I don't know. Did you have another question on 3 that? 4 Q Well, yeah. I'm going to ask you if, prior to 5 this meeting -- and I'm going to come back to it -- but 6 prior to this meeting, had you arranged for any other 7 meeting to take place on the same subject matter of the 8 auditing and how to conduct the litigation? 9 A I'm not -- I don't -- you mean did I arrange a 10 dinner meeting? 11 Q No. Did you arrange a meeting, prior to 12 Philadelphia, to go over your Scientology issues, as you 13 described them? 14 A I arranged to have the meeting there with 15 Mr. Dandar, yes. He was going to be there for some, you 16 know, disrelated case where he was taking a deposition, I 17 believe. It might have been a related case. The same case. 18 I don't know. 19 THE COURT: This again is this August, '99 20 dinner meeting -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. On the 26th of -- 22 THE COURT: -- where you all discussed, the 23 three of you. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, not at the dinner. 25 THE COURT: The meeting -- 0287
1 THE WITNESS: Before dinner and after dinner. 2 THE COURT: Okay. You discussed how to better 3 take depositions or how to use the tricks or the 4 trade or whatever it was it was called that Ms. -- 5 Ms. Brooks had told you about, Mr. Prince had told 6 you about, others, I think you said -- and others? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: -- had told you about, to in 9 essence get more to the truth in the depositions. 10 Is that it? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. And to elicit -- yeah. 12 And to elicit information out of these depositions 13 that may not otherwise come forward, come out. 14 And at the same time, there was discussions 15 about using Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince. And I 16 don't remember any others who were talked about, but 17 there might have been, in terms of, you know, how 18 they could be of further assistance to Mr. Dandar in 19 prosecuting this case. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Well, on Friday, I recall you indicated you had -- 22 you had indicated you had talked to Ford Greene and Dan 23 Leipold, who were attorneys. Do you recall any 24 conversations with them and/or Mr. Dandar around this period 25 of time? 0288
1 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. Hearsay. 2 THE COURT: As far as any conversations he had 3 with Mr. Leipold or whatever. I'm interested in 4 conversations he had with Mr. Dandar. 5 MR. FUGATE: I understand, Judge. 6 A Well, if I can just back up one second to 7 something -- another instance of discussing matters in this 8 case with Mr. Dandar -- 9 THE WITNESS: And this was around January of 10 '98, your Honor. 11 A And based upon advice from my counsel in Boston, 12 it was pretty -- 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Who -- for the record, who would that be? 15 A Stephen Jonas. 16 Q Okay. 17 A It was pretty clear to -- based on the deposition 18 that occurred on January 13th, 1998, it was pretty clear 19 that -- that this case was complicated. And -- 20 THE COURT: Which depo are we talking about? 21 One of yours? 22 THE WITNESS: Mine. January 13th, 1998, in 23 Boston, the first one that I was deposed in this 24 case. 25 A And Mr. Jonas asked me to extract -- well, 0289
1 Mr. Jonas suggested that I should extract some sort of 2 promise from Mr. Dandar in terms of getting a commitment 3 from other attorneys at some point in the future in this 4 litigation, who could help him in what was to be a 5 complicated case. 6 Mr. Dandar, subsequent to that discussion in 7 January of 1998, told me that he -- and by subsequent, it 8 wasn't immediately after that -- but he said then in 9 January, 1998, that, yes, he realized that at some point in 10 the future he would have to bring in additional people who 11 had greater expertise; you know, more types of legal 12 software that could track all these depositions, where you 13 could pick out pieces of information across a broad spectrum 14 of depositions -- you know, of testimony in the case, not 15 just depositions. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Did you have anybody in mind, sir? 18 THE COURT: Didn't we talk about this on 19 Friday? Is this -- is this the Leipold and somebody 20 else who was an attorney? 21 MR. FUGATE: Yes, we did talk about it -- 22 THE COURT: And that they came down, 23 arrangements couldn't be made -- 24 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. I was just going to ask -- 25 THE COURT: Is that -- is that -- 0290
1 MR. FUGATE: I think that's what he's about to 2 say. I don't know. 3 A Well, at the time, you know, I didn't 4 particularly -- this is back in the beginning of '98 here -- 5 you know, at the time I wasn't thinking of Dan Leipold and 6 Ford Greene at that stage. I was talking with Mr. Dandar 7 about sizable law firms either in Tampa or elsewhere. And 8 that's what he was talking about. 9 You know, sometime -- and you know, again, I'm not 10 sure of the timing on this -- but sometime after the 11 criminal case was filed -- I don't remember the date of 12 that -- Mr. Dandar communicated to me that he had two law 13 firms lined up that were willing to be of assistance to him 14 in this case. You know, he didn't tell me what arrangements 15 he'd made with them. He just said that he had, you know, 16 found two law firms in Tampa that were willing to help him. 17 And he would bring them in when the time was appropriate. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Was that the result of any request from you? 20 A Well, he -- he had promised that he would do this 21 because, you know, he recognized what Steve Jonas was 22 saying, that this was not going to be a walk in the park 23 type of case, and that there would have to be somebody -- 24 and given the volume of what's transpired in this case, you 25 know, I think it's evident that something -- some sort of 0291
1 help was going to be needed. 2 Q Did any help materialize? 3 A Well, at some point, you know, Leipold and Greene 4 were -- I discussed with Leipold and Greene the possibility 5 of them getting involved in this case, and Mr. Leipold had 6 discussions with Mr. Dandar concerning that, and -- 7 Q Were you -- you weren't present for those 8 conversations? 9 A No. But both of them told me that they had 10 discussed the matter. 11 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. 12 THE COURT: You can't go there, Mr. Fugate. 13 MR. FUGATE: I just was trying to establish if 14 he was there. 15 THE COURT: But I want to make sure I 16 understand something. Your request of Mr. Dandar 17 was to bring in some large law firm, like somebody 18 in Tampa, or was this his -- in other words, what 19 did you want him to do? Bring in what -- I think 20 you said somebody -- your lawyer had said he needed 21 to bring in somebody with more abilities, more 22 hardware to track the case and what have you? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: And that was one of the things that 25 you got -- that Mr. Dandar would do things to 0292
1 satisfy your wishes and get more money from you? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: And he didn't do that, though. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I'll explain later what 5 happened with respect to -- 6 THE COURT: Well, you might explain, but you 7 might be good enough to answer my question. 8 He didn't do that, did he? 9 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Oh. 11 THE WITNESS: He promised to do it and he tried 12 to do it. 13 THE COURT: That was another thing you wanted 14 that he didn't do? 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q When you say he tried to do it, what are you 17 describing? 18 A Well, in -- by middle of 2000 -- 2001 sometime -- 19 it was very clear to Mr. Dandar that he needed this 20 additional help. By this time, he told me that the two law 21 firms that he lined up would not agree to help him anymore; 22 that they had been scared off by the Church of Scientology 23 and they weren't willing to be of any assistance to him. 24 THE COURT: Did he tell you who these law firms 25 were? 0293
1 THE WITNESS: He didn't, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: Or if he did, I don't remember. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Well, let me ask you this. Did you have any 7 discussions with any law firms in the Tampa area, with 8 Mr. Dandar? 9 A No, I didn't. 10 Q So your knowledge is confined to what Mr. Dandar 11 had told you then? 12 A That's correct. 13 And -- 14 Q Now, my -- 15 A But since -- since Mr. Dandar wasn't, you know, 16 doing this; you know, acting on this commitment that he gave 17 to bring in a bigger law firm, this is where -- this is the 18 time frame in which Leipold and Greene were brought in. 19 Q How did they get in, if you know? And what did 20 they do, if you know? 21 A Because Dan Leipold discussed with me the fact 22 that he wanted to get involved in this; that he thought -- I 23 think the term he used was that Mr. Dandar was not the 24 sharpest knife in the drawer, and that he was going to be 25 crushed in this case unless he had additional help. And 0294
1 Leipold obviously wanted to get in on this. You know, 2 Leipold thought, just like Mr. Dandar, that this was an 80- 3 or a hundred-million-dollar case, and you know, Mr. Leipold 4 wanted to get in on that contingency fee. That's what he 5 told me. 6 Q Did -- to your knowledge, did Mr. Leipold then 7 become involved in -- to your knowledge, involved in the 8 case on a contingency fee basis? 9 A No, he didn't. He -- he -- I think he got paid 10 hourly. 11 Q Okay. I think you mentioned on Friday that there 12 was a meeting in Key West? 13 A Yes. There was a meeting in Key West that 14 involved a lot of people. 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. He wasn't there. 16 Hearsay. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Do you know if there was a meeting? 20 A There was -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. 22 THE COURT: Well, if he heard about it, it's 23 hearsay. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you there was a meeting? 0295
1 A Yes. He invited me to the meeting. 2 Q Did you go to the meeting? 3 A I did not. 4 Q Did you discuss the meeting with Mr. Dandar 5 anytime thereafter? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And when -- when would that discussion have 8 occurred? 9 A Well, Mr. -- 10 THE COURT: I'm trying to put a time frame to 11 this. We were talking about something that occurred 12 in January of '98, about what Mr. Jonas had told him 13 to do, and now we're talking about a meeting in Key 14 West. Can we get a time reference on that? 15 THE WITNESS: That's -- 16 THE COURT: Does this have to do with the 17 lawyer and hiring of the lawyer and law firms? 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 MR. FUGATE: As far as I understand, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Can you explain that to me and the court, please? 24 A Explain -- 25 Q The time frame? 0296
1 A -- the time frame? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A I believe this was in 2000. You know, sometime 4 early to mid-2000. I forget the exact date. 5 Q Well, is -- let me ask you this. On Friday you 6 had mentioned something about help with some motions and 7 some religiosity issues. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you recall what issues and when those were 10 filed, by any date and time, sir? 11 A I don't. 12 Q Would this be -- whatever time frame you're 13 recalling, would it be around the time that religiosity 14 issues were raised and being briefed? 15 A It was. 16 MR. DANDAR: Leading. Leading. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, do you know, on the issue of religiosity, 20 did either Mr. Leipold or Mr. Greene do anything that you're 21 aware of? 22 A Yes, they did. 23 Q What did they do? 24 THE COURT: Mr. Leipold or -- who's the other 25 one? 0297
1 THE WITNESS: Ford Greene. 2 MR. FUGATE: Ford Greene, I think he said. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Is the Dan Leipold the same Dan Leipold we've 5 talked about earlier? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And Ford Greene is who, for the -- for the court? 8 A Ford Greene is another California-based attorney. 9 He's based in, I think, San Anselmo, California, which is 10 near San Francisco. 11 THE COURT: Is he another attorney that 12 litigates against the church? 13 THE WITNESS: He -- he has, yes. 14 THE COURT: He has? 15 Are -- are either -- 16 THE WITNESS: And continues to be. 17 THE COURT: Are either of these folks involved 18 a large law firm? 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Do either of these folks have the 21 technology that you're talking about, the hardware 22 to keep track of all of this stuff like Bates 23 numbers and this kind of thing? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Leipold, at the suggestion of 25 Hale and Dorr law firm in Boston, bought it, bought 0298
1 the types of software. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q This is the same Mr. Leipold that you'd funded 5 over the years -- 6 A That's correct. 7 Q -- that we saw the letter agreement with today? 8 A Right. I funded him, you know, through the end of 9 2001. 10 Q All right. Now -- and Ford Greene -- I think I 11 cut you off -- was who? 12 A Well, Mr. Greene is another attorney who has been 13 involved extensively in anti-Scientology litigation for a 14 long time, long before my involvement in any of this. 15 Q Have you funded him, sir? 16 A Through Mr. Leipold and through Mr. Dandar. 17 Q And how did that happen? 18 A Well, in terms of the work that Mr. Greene did for 19 Mr. Dandar on this religiosity issue. 20 Q Do you know what work -- do you know, sir, what 21 work he did; Mr. Greene? 22 A Well, there was an extensive -- I think it was -- 23 I can't remember whether it was 80 pages, but I remember it 24 was a very sizable document, on the whole religiosity issue 25 relative to this case, which was prepared by Ford Greene 0299
1 under the shepherding of Dan Leipold. 2 Q And how did Mr. Leipold and Mr. Greene get to 3 Mr. Dandar for -- for this purpose, if you know? 4 A Well, they -- they came here to have a meeting in 5 Key West to discuss those issues, this case, and their 6 future involvement in this case. 7 Q Is this the meeting you said Mr. Dandar invited 8 you to? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And how did Mr. Greene and Mr. Leipold get invited 11 to the meeting, if you know? 12 A Well, Mr. Dandar invited them. 13 Q And do you know how Mr. Dandar knew Mr. Leipold 14 and Ford Greene? 15 A Well, he -- he knew them because of their 16 activities in anti-Scientology litigation first, but he also 17 knew them because of my close association with Mr. Leipold. 18 Q Do you know, of your own personal knowledge, if 19 Mr. Dandar was aware you were funding Mr. Leipold at or 20 around this time, I should say. 21 A Well, Mr. Dandar was writing the checks that -- to 22 Dan Leipold, but he was using my money to pay Mr. Leipold, 23 so clearly, he knew I was funding him in that way. 24 THE COURT: But that was okay, according to 25 your deposition, for him to use the money for 0300
1 attorneys in the case and -- 2 THE WITNESS: That's right. 3 THE COURT: -- for consultants. 4 THE WITNESS: That's right. 5 Now, I'm not sure whether Mr. Dandar knew 6 specifically about the loans to set up Hagenbaugh 7 and Murphy, but he certainly knew that I was 8 supporting Dan Leipold's law firm. Whether he knew 9 about this specific loan agreement or what, I don't 10 know, but -- but I'd certainly discussed with him 11 the fact that Dan Leipold would not be surviving 12 without my support. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: You may, but I want to be sure I 15 understand this. 16 So this is -- we're on number 6 here. 17 "Mr. Dandar would do things in the litigation 18 designed to satisfy my wishes and thus get more 19 money from me." One of the things he did was to ask 20 a couple of lawyers to help him on an issue in the 21 case; assist him in the -- in the religiosity -- he 22 got assistance from a couple lawyers that knew more 23 than he did? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Is that the end of that? Is 0301
1 there more? 2 MR. FUGATE: I'm looking for an exhibit, Judge. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Well, I think you had indicated that you okayed or 5 were okay with the payment of the funds you were providing 6 for including Mr. Greene and Mr. Leipold in the litigation? 7 A Right. Except for, you know, what transpired 8 after the meeting in Key West. 9 Q What -- 10 A There were other -- 11 Q What -- 12 A There were other attempts to -- well, as a result 13 of Mr. Dandar, to try to get me to pay Leipold directly. 14 Q And tell us about that. 15 A Well, Mr. Dandar was pretty upset after -- with 16 Leipold and Greene -- and this is what he told me -- 17 Q What did he tell you exactly? 18 A Well, this whole meeting in Key West, according to 19 Mr. Dandar, had turned into a drugfest, and the people who 20 were down there were taking LSD, cocaine, smoking marijuana. 21 And Mr. Dandar was extremely disturbed that these two 22 attorneys were part of that. 23 Q He didn't approve it, in other words? Is that 24 what you're saying? Mr. Dandar? 25 A That's what he said, yes. 0302
1 Q What else did he tell you about the meetings with 2 these two attorneys that was upsetting to him? 3 A Well, that -- that Dan Leipold wanted in on the 4 contingency arrangement. And Dandar said -- 5 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you whether he decided to let 6 him in or not? 7 A He said, "There's no way." 8 Q So as a result of that, was there any request to 9 you for funding? 10 A Yes. Mr. Dandar and I discussed, I believe, on 11 the phone with Mr. Leipold, that, you know, if Mr. Leipold 12 was going to work on the case, he would have to be paid 13 separately by me, both he and Ford Greene. And I gathered 14 from the conversation that the subject of a budget had 15 already been discussed with Mr. Dandar, and Mr. Leipold said 16 that he would send me a budget -- 17 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Hearsay. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. DANDAR: And also relevance to any issue in 20 this case. 21 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's trying to 22 say is this is something else, as a part of his 23 affidavit, of things you did to satisfy his wishes 24 and thus got more money from you. So I'm going to 25 allow this, 'cause I myself want to know everything 0303
1 there is. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q If we go back to the -- the August -- 4 THE COURT: Is this something -- did you want 5 Leipold in this case? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. So you wanted Leipold in; 8 Leipold wanted in; he wanted a contingency, and 9 Dandar said, "I'm not going to do it." 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: So this is again Dandar doing what 12 Dandar wanted to do. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: Not what you wanted to do. 15 THE WITNESS: That's right. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Now, just for the sake of completeness here in the 19 record, do you recall, at your deposition on -- the one that 20 you have just referred the judge to, January of 1998 -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- where Mr. Jonas was present -- do you recall 23 Kathy Shipe, S-h-i-p-e, being present at that depo? 24 A Yes. She was also representing me at that 25 deposition. 0304
1 Q Okay. And if you look at the letter agreement, 2 which is -- what number? I don't have it written down. I 3 believe it's 102 -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: 100. 5 MR. FUGATE: 100. I'm sorry, Judge. Do you 6 have 100 in front of you? 7 THE COURT: I'm sure I do. Let me find it. 8 Tell me what it is again. 9 MR. FUGATE: It's the letter and loan agreement 10 with Mr. Minton and Mr. Leipold and others, Exhibit 11 100. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Do you have that in front of you? 14 A I've got it. 15 Q Dated May 28th -- 16 THE COURT: I'm sure I've got it up here. I 17 can't -- 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, let me just ask, do you have it in front of 20 you? 21 A I do. 22 Q Would you flip to page 3 of 3? And let me hand 23 the judge -- 24 THE COURT: I've got it. I'm sure it's -- 25 Here it is. I've got it. 0305
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Do you see the folks that signed on the letter 3 there? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Mr. Leipold, Mr. Donohue -- do you see a Kathy 6 Shipe? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Is that the same Kathy Shipe who came to the 9 January, '98 deposition of yourself -- 10 A Yes. 11 Q -- in Boston? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q The Hale and Dorr -- that Mr. Jonas of Hale and 14 Dorr was present at? 15 A That's right. 16 Q And -- 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Who all was in this -- 18 Mr. Jonas was there? 19 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Jonas was there. 20 THE COURT: Ms. Shipe was there? 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q You recall Ms. Shipe being there. 23 A Ms. Shipe was there, Mr. Dandar was there, 24 Mr. Weinberg was there, and another attorney, I believe. 25 THE COURT: You were being represented by Jonas 0306
1 and Shipe? 2 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And Shipe was with what 4 firm? 5 THE WITNESS: At that time, she was with 6 Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry. That name doesn't make 8 any -- I don't -- 9 MR. FUGATE: It's the name on the letterhead of 10 the -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: She was with Dan Leipold -- 12 THE COURT: With Leipold. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 14 THE COURT: I see. 15 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 16 THE COURT: This firm up here, the Hagenbaugh 17 and Murphy is the one that Mr. Leipold split off 18 from. 19 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: And you funded -- helped him to set 21 up his own office. 22 THE WITNESS: That's right. 23 MR. WEINBERG: And he split off with Shipe and 24 one other person. 25 THE COURT: Okay. And that's who the money was 0307
1 being loaned to. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 3 THE COURT: Okay. To help them to set up a 4 different office. 5 THE WITNESS: That's right. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Now, back to the August 26th meeting in 1999 that 8 you were discussing -- 9 MR. FUGATE: And I'm sorry, Judge. I don't 10 have the number of the check, but it's the $250,000 11 check. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Do you have -- it's 93 -- 14 A Yes. I have it. 15 THE COURT: 93-E. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q -- E. 18 A 93-E. Right. 19 Q Is that the first check that was for more than 20 $100,000? 21 A Yes -- 22 Q Do you recall why -- 23 A -- it is. 24 Q -- the amount changed from 100 to 250,000? 25 A Because it was going to be more expensive relative 0308
1 to bringing in additional parties. 2 Q Now, back to paragraph 6 -- 3 THE COURT: I guess I'm confused. Parties to 4 the lawsuit? Parties to assist in the -- 5 THE WITNESS: The lawsuit. 6 THE COURT: In the lawsuit. Okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: What check is this? I'm sorry. 8 THE COURT: 93-E. 9 MR. DANDAR: What's the date? 10 MR. WEINBERG: August 27th, 1999. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q And did you ever see the -- whatever the pleading 13 or filing was that Mr. Leipold and Mr. Greene worked on with 14 Mr. Dandar? 15 A I did. 16 Q Would you recognize it if you saw it again? 17 A I believe I would. 18 MR. FUGATE: All right. Judge, I'll try and 19 locate that over lunch. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q And whatever date that is dated, would that 22 refresh your recollection as to the date, times, or the 23 point in history that we've been talking about here? 24 A It would. 25 Q Now, before we leave paragraph 6, are there any 0309
1 other specific meetings or communications that you can think 2 of that relate to the question that her Honor asked you 3 about -- 4 THE COURT: No. That relate to his affidavit. 5 I'm asking a question about his affidavit. I want 6 to know what he meant. So it's not -- it might be 7 the question of her Honor, but her Honor is asking 8 him a question about an affidavit that he filed 9 under oath, and I want to know what he's talking 10 about. 11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it was an inartful question 12 on my part. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Would you read 6 again? And we want to make sure 15 that you are covering, as best you can recall today, each of 16 the instances that you're referring to in your paragraph 6. 17 A You know, actually, at this moment I can't recall 18 anything else. 19 THE COURT: You did want the case dismissed. 20 Toward the end of this -- this -- situation, you 21 called Mr. Dandar and asked him -- 22 THE WITNESS: Back in -- 23 THE COURT: -- to get the case dismissed. 24 THE WITNESS: -- March 29th or so, yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. That didn't happen. 0310
1 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, let me just -- 2 THE COURT: Well, maybe you could answer me and 3 then maybe you could explain it. 4 Did that happen? 5 THE WITNESS: No, it didn't, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 You wanted the case settled. 8 THE WITNESS: When did -- when did I say that? 9 THE COURT: I don't know. If you didn't say -- 10 then that's not accurate. I thought that you had 11 called and -- part of the testimony was you had 12 called and said, "You've got to get this case 13 settled. You've got to get this case dismissed," or 14 something like that. If you didn't say that, 15 then -- 16 THE WITNESS: I don't think I -- I don't think 17 I said settled. 18 THE COURT: Okay. So it was dismissed. You 19 wanted the whole thing dismissed. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar refused? 22 THE WITNESS: If -- if I may explain, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: Well, you may. But the answer to 25 that is -- 0311
1 THE WITNESS: But he did -- he did refuse. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: This may jump this out of 4 sequence a little bit, and if you want me to stop 5 talking, I will. 6 But you know, your Honor, when this -- when 7 these meetings were held with the Church of 8 Scientology, the first meetings, on the 28th and the 9 29th of March, the last thing that -- when I went 10 into those meetings, the last thing that I wanted to 11 do was to be coming down here to Florida setting the 12 record in this case, or any other case, straight. 13 You know, I went into that meeting in the 14 expectation that I would somehow be able to buy my 15 way out of this; that it was going to cost some 16 millions of dollars to settle with Scientology and 17 to get away from this whole litigation mess that -- 18 that I was involved in. 19 When it became apparent, after those day and a 20 quarter's worth of meetings, that that wasn't going 21 to happen, and you know, Mr. -- you know, my -- my 22 Florida counsel and my Boston counsel, you know, 23 there is -- said to me in essence, you know, 24 "There's not much choice other than for you to go 25 down to Florida, go through with this contempt 0312
1 hearing in front of Judge Schaeffer, go through with 2 the deposition in front of Mr. Rosen in the breach 3 case, and go through the contempt hearing on the 4 following day with Judge Baird --" 5 When I called Mr. Dandar on the night of the 6 28th, after the first day of meetings with 7 Scientology, all I asked him to do at that time was 8 to set up a meeting with Dell Liebreich, Mr. Dandar, 9 myself and Stacy Brooks, so that we could talk about 10 this case. 11 THE COURT: I thought that Ms. Brooks -- I may 12 be wrong, and I'll certainly let you finish that, 13 but -- and again, this has been a long hearing -- I 14 thought Ms. Brooks had testified to another 15 discussion that you had had with her where either 16 she wanted -- either she brought it up or you 17 brought it up, to call Dell Liebreich, get this case 18 dismissed. Something like that. 19 THE WITNESS: You're right. There was another 20 one. That was in August of -- I think it was in 21 August of 2001. 22 THE COURT: And this was to get her to dismiss 23 the case. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, it -- that was the ultimate 25 aim. But the -- the -- the key part of that was to 0313
1 explain to her what was going on in this case and 2 what Mr. Dandar had gotten us to do in this case. 3 And we thought if she knew what was really going on 4 in this case, she wouldn't condone it. 5 THE COURT: And would dismiss the case? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: I mean, that was, as you said, the 8 ultimate -- that is what you ultimately wanted to 9 happen. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: So -- 13 THE COURT: And so when you made this request 14 and -- 15 THE WITNESS: Ms. Brooks called -- 16 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks called Ms. Liebreich, 17 Ms. Liebreich apparently called Mr. Dandar, and that 18 meeting didn't take place. 19 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: So this was another effort, I take 21 it, long before your meeting with Scientology, where 22 you want the case dismissed. 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 THE COURT: And it didn't happen, did it? 25 THE WITNESS: It did not happen, your Honor. 0314
1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: Otherwise we wouldn't be here. 3 THE COURT: Before any settlement conference. 4 THE WITNESS: That's right. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: But just going back to this phone 7 call to Mr. Dandar on the 28th -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: -- that was -- that was -- the 10 purpose of the meeting, you know, which wasn't 11 discussed with Mr. Dandar -- we just said we wanted 12 to meet as early as possible, next week, the week 13 after Easter. He said that he would speak to Dell 14 and get back to us. 15 The next day, you know, we only spent about a 16 couple of hours or an hour and a half meeting with 17 the officials from Scientology and their attorneys. 18 And when we got back to New Hampshire -- when we 19 flew back from New York to New Hampshire that night, 20 this is when I called Mr. Dandar. And I told him a 21 whole bunch of things, but basically that, you know, 22 that if we continued with this litigation the way we 23 had been, that both of us were going to get 24 destroyed, both Mr. Dandar and me. 25 Secondly, I said, "Look, you know, my -- you 0315
1 know, I'm being advised that, you know, I must go 2 down to Florida and tell the truth about what's 3 happened in this case." About the checks, 4 specifically. That was the first item that was 5 discussed. And you know, Mr. Dandar said, "You 6 can't tell about these checks. I haven't reported 7 them to the court." You know, if -- 8 THE COURT: This is your explanation about the 9 fact that Mr. Dandar wouldn't dismiss the case? 10 THE WITNESS: Well -- 11 THE COURT: I thought that's what you were 12 doing. You had responded to me -- 13 THE WITNESS: I am. 14 THE COURT: -- no, you couldn't get the case 15 dismissed. 16 THE WITNESS: I am. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to explain this, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: You know, Mr. Dandar -- you know, 22 to my belief, at the time and subsequent to that, 23 you know, I don't believe he understood the gravity 24 of -- of what was going on here and how both of us 25 were going to end up, you know, in severe trouble 0316
1 with the courts down here. 2 And you know, he said that he had -- he had 3 suspected that the reason we wanted to meet with 4 him, based on the call from the 28th, was that we 5 wanted to talk about dismissing the case; that he 6 had discussed it with Dell Liebreich and there was 7 no way they were going to dismiss the case; that he 8 had told Dell Liebreich not to take any calls from 9 us so that we couldn't discuss it. 10 And you know, I told Mr. Dandar that, "Look, 11 if -- if -- you know, when I go down there, I'm 12 going to have to tell the truth about these checks 13 and other things that have gone on in this case, 14 that you have been involved in." And I said, "Can't 15 you see the -- the complete bloodiness that this 16 will cause down there?" 17 THE COURT: Is this -- 18 THE WITNESS: And still -- 19 THE COURT: Is this when you told him about the 20 blood of your wife and his children would be on his 21 hands if he didn't dismiss the case? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. This is during the 23 same conversation. 24 You know -- I mean what Mr. Dandar suggested to 25 me was that I go down there and concentrate on the 0317
1 checks that I had written, period, end of story. 2 "You didn't write these checks. You don't have to 3 tell about them." And I already knew the trouble 4 that I was in. You know, as I said, when I went 5 into that meeting with Scientology, I didn't want to 6 come back down here. I didn't want to face you, 7 your Honor. You know, I didn't want to face Judge 8 Baird. 9 THE COURT: So I hope you didn't think that the 10 Church of Scientology had anything to do with any 11 hearing before me or Judge Baird on a contempt 12 matter. I mean, if they filed the order to show 13 cause and they tried to withdraw it and I wanted to 14 go forward with it, I could have gone forward with 15 it on my own. 16 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: If Judge Baird had already entered 18 a finding, the Church of Scientology can't go up 19 there, as you've seen, and get that dismissed. I 20 mean, that's a judicial matter. Contempt isn't a 21 matter of a lawyer; it's matter of a court. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, you know I -- I -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sure they explained that to you 24 when you were in there expressing your concerns, 25 that they had nothing to do with it. That was up to 0318
1 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. 2 THE WITNESS: Those meetings on the 28th and 3 29th? 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 THE WITNESS: No. They didn't. You know, they 6 were completely inflexible about them. There wasn't 7 any discussions about, "Hey, you know, we can solve 8 this problem for you," or, "Hey, that's Judge Baird 9 or Judge Schaeffer's issue and, you know, it's of no 10 concern to us." No, that wasn't discussed. 11 But you know -- 12 THE COURT: Well, you were fairly desperate, I 13 take it, then, on the 28th -- nothing had happened; 14 you hadn't come to Florida; you wanted the case 15 dismissed -- I mean, to say that, "You've got the 16 blood of my wife and my children and me on your 17 hands if you don't dismiss the case," is a fairly 18 radical statement. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, I also said to Mr. Dandar 20 that, you know, his blood was going to be spilled in 21 this thing too. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: And I said, you know, this is 24 something we need to avoid. 25 But you know, his -- his attitude was, "Just 0319
1 come down there and keep lying." 2 And I told him that I was -- had to go down 3 here and tell the truth about this thing, because 4 otherwise I was going to be the one -- my family, my 5 wife, my kids, you know, everybody -- Stacy 6 Brooks -- you know, everybody was going to be 7 completely distraught about what was going to 8 happen. I mean, you know, obviously for your 9 children to, you know, find your dad in jail is not 10 a pleasant experience. It's not something -- I 11 mean, obviously -- 12 Well -- 13 THE COURT: So after all this -- I mean, being 14 fairly -- you know, I would say that you made 15 yourself very clear to Mr. Dandar as how serious you 16 were. You needed it dismissed for these reasons. 17 He turned you down. 18 THE WITNESS: He did. 19 THE COURT: Just as he turned you down before 20 you ever met with Scientology when you and 21 Ms. Brooks and/or Ms. Brooks decided you wanted case 22 dismissed, right? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, he -- he didn't have any 24 discussions with me. He had a discussion, after 25 Stacy Brooks had called Dell Liebreich, that he was 0320
1 very upset that -- I mean -- upset would be a mild 2 word -- that he was upset that Stacy Brooks had 3 called Dell Liebreich directly. 4 THE COURT: Well, who wanted the case dismissed 5 back then? You or Stacy Brooks or both of you? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, it was something she had 7 been pushing, you know, and I -- I agreed with her 8 that -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. So between the two of you, 10 you wanted the case dismissed and you wanted to talk 11 to Dell Liebreich about it. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 THE COURT: Dandar cut you off, wouldn't let 14 you talk to her. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar cut us off 16 because he didn't want Dell Liebreich to know 17 exactly what had been going on in this case. 18 THE COURT: Well, now, is that what you assume 19 or is that what he told you? 20 THE WITNESS: That's what I assume, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. The truth of the matter is, 22 though, you, the man who'd given him over 23 $2 million, who had such control here, couldn't get 24 anything done you wanted. You couldn't even get a 25 phone call through to his client, is that right? 0321
1 THE WITNESS: I didn't try to call. Ms. Brooks 2 talked to her. 3 THE COURT: Well -- 4 THE WITNESS: That August time I'm talking 5 about. 6 THE COURT: Okay. What else did he control in 7 this case? 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Well, as a point of reference to the record, you 10 just made reference in your answer to the court about 11 checks. What checks were you talking about that Mr. Dandar 12 didn't want you to disclose? 13 A The two checks, the one -- the UVS checks, the one 14 for $500,000 and the one for $250,000. 15 Q And the second one for 250,000 you have there in 16 front of you, what was the date of that check? 17 A March 7th, 2002, I believe. 18 Let me just be certain. 19 THE COURT: It is. March 7th, 2002. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q So the conversations that you had with Mr. Dandar 23 on the 28th and 29th -- and I don't recall exactly which 24 date you said, correct me. Which date were you talking to 25 him about those checks? 0322
1 A The 29th -- 2 Q Of March -- 3 A Yes. 4 Q -- 2002? 5 A And again on the morning of the 30th, another 6 conversation -- 7 Q And -- 8 A -- that I haven't discussed before. 9 Q Well, tell us about that one, as long as we're 10 there. 11 A Well, on -- during that Saturday -- I think it was 12 a Saturday morning, the day before Easter, you know, again, 13 we went through this whole thing. And when he said, you 14 know, there was no way he's going to dismiss this case, I 15 asked him for the $250,000 back. 16 Q What did he say? 17 A Well, this was -- this -- well, the conversation 18 the night before also included -- I forgot to mention -- 19 that, rather than having a meeting with Dell Liebreich, 20 let's sit down and -- I think it was somewhere in Ohio 21 where, he was going to have a heart checkup the following 22 week. So he suggested that Stacy Brooks and I come up 23 there, I think on the Wednesday of that week, and you 24 know -- I forget the name of the clinic or the place, but he 25 sent me several e-mails about it later that night, the night 0323
1 of the 29th. 2 And -- 3 Q To meet with him? 4 A To meet with him to discuss this whole matter. 5 Q Okay. 6 A So on the morning of the 30th, you know -- I mean, 7 I basically called -- 8 Q Let me back you up a moment. 9 A I'm sorry. The morning -- the day after the 10 30th -- 11 Q What did you understand that he wanted -- that 12 Mr. Dandar wanted to discuss with you in Ohio? 13 A Well, the dismissal of the case or some other way 14 to deal with the problems that -- that we were both facing. 15 You know, I wasn't sure what he wanted to discuss, 16 but I -- you know, that was what the subject matter of the 17 discussion on that 29th was. And you know, the idea of 18 coming to meet with him to discuss this further was his 19 idea, not mine. 20 Q Had you discussed with Mr. Dandar, on the 29th or 21 on the 30th, your request to continue the two hearings, the 22 two contempt proceedings? 23 A No. I don't think I did. 24 Q So do you know if he knew they were still set, at 25 that point in time, for April? 0324
1 A Oh, yeah. Yeah. We -- we told him that, you 2 know, these things were going ahead next week; that -- the 3 next week being the following Friday, in front of Judge 4 Schaeffer, and then the Monday deposition in front of Rosen, 5 and the Judge Baird hearing on that Tuesday. 6 Q If -- if we use -- Friday, I think, was April 5th, 7 which was the contempt proceeding in this case, and then 8 Monday and Tuesday would be, I think, the -- 9 A Monday would have been the Rosen deposition in the 10 breach case and Tuesday was the -- 11 Q On the 8th, I think, of April -- 12 A Yes. And the 9th was the contempt hearing in 13 front of Judge Baird. 14 Q So the meeting that you're talking about would 15 have been -- taken place after the 30th but before the 5th 16 of April -- 30th of March? 17 A Yes. It was going to take place on the Wednesday 18 of the following week which would have been two days before 19 the Judge Schaeffer contempt hearing was scheduled. 20 Q And I think I cut you off. You said you had a 21 conversation on the 30th about returning the money? 22 A Yes. 23 This was after -- 24 THE COURT: Well, have we -- are we still in a 25 phone call where he's trying to -- somebody's trying 0325
1 to set up a meeting on Wednesday, which I guess is 2 April the 3rd? 3 MR. FUGATE: I couldn't -- I don't know. He 4 said there were phone calls and e-mails. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Would you explain what's going on here? 7 A Yeah. The -- the 29th was a Friday night. When 8 it came -- by the time this -- 9 THE COURT: This is on the 30th, then, I take 10 it. If the 29th -- 11 I don't know. 12 THE WITNESS: No. Well, back to the 29th. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: This is when the meeting was 15 scheduled for Cleveland. I think it was Cleveland. 16 You know, Mr. Dandar -- we discussed the possibility 17 of meeting on the Monday, but he said he had a 18 deposition or something to do on the Monday. And he 19 said, "I've got to go, after that deposition, up to 20 Cleveland for this heart checkup." And so we agreed 21 to meet there. He suggested, you know, due to his 22 checkup and things like that, that Wednesday would 23 be the better day to come up and meet with him. 24 THE COURT: And that Wednesday would have been 25 two days before the contempt hearing. 0326
1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: So it would have been April the 3 3rd. 4 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, the -- the next morning, 7 going back from the 29th, the next morning being the 8 30th -- that was a Saturday, I believe -- 9 THE COURT: This is a call that you haven't 10 discussed before? 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: This is where I ask, you know -- 14 at the end of the call, basically, you know, I ask 15 him for the money back. Because by then he had 16 said, you know, "I don't want to see you -- I don't 17 want to see you and Stacy in Cleveland. You'll give 18 me a heart attack up there." You know, "Let's just 19 forget this." You know, forget about a meeting. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q But you were -- I think you were going to tell us 22 about the call itself. Can you describe what you recall 23 discussing with Mr. Dandar in that call? 24 A Well, basically just going over some of the same 25 ground as the night before. And that, you know -- with 0327
1 regards to these checks, you know. And I told him, "Look, 2 you know, I'm going to have to go down and tell about these 3 checks, period. You know, there's no way to get around this 4 now." And you know, this was not a happy matter for 5 Mr. Dandar. He wasn't at all pleased with this, you know, 6 sort of absolutist statement that that's what was going to 7 be done. 8 And you know, things deteriorated. You know, he 9 said, "Don't come up. You'll give me a heart attack." You 10 know, "Forget about any meeting," you know. And then, you 11 know, I asked him for the money back. Stacy's saying, you 12 know -- you know, "You came up here to New Hampshire and 13 you -- you lied to Bob Minton." 14 THE COURT: Wait a second. Is Stacy on -- is 15 this a three-way call? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was on a speakerphone. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: And -- 19 THE COURT: So this is the same -- 20 THE WITNESS: This is the attic -- this is one 21 of the "attic calls" -- 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: -- you know. 24 And I -- I knew what Stacy was talking about. 25 Because when Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko came up to New 0328
1 Hampshire, what I think was the 23rd or 24th of 2 February -- I forget the exact date, but I think -- 3 that was -- that was a weekend -- one of the things 4 Mr. Dandar said up there was that this case was not 5 worth anybody else's life being destroyed. And I -- 6 THE COURT: Who said that, sir? 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar. 8 THE COURT: On the phone, Mr. Dandar -- 9 THE WITNESS: No. No. This was on the -- when 10 he was up there with Dr. Garko that weekend -- 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: On the 23rd or 24th of February. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 THE WITNESS: And I said, "Yes." I said, 15 "That's right, Ken." I said, "You know, you came up 16 here and you told me that this case was not worth 17 anybody else's life being destroyed, and yet you're 18 willing to ask me to go down there and sacrifice my 19 life, basically; my well-being. You know, me going 20 to jail. You know, my family's well-being, you 21 know, for this case." I said, "You are the 22 biggest -- something -- liar that I have ever met." 23 And I said, "I want my money back," that 250,000 24 that I gave him on March 7th. 25 And so that was -- that was the essence of this 0329
1 March 30th phone call. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, in this phone call, was any solution offered 4 to you as to what you could do, in coming to Florida? 5 A "Concentrate on the checks you have written." I 6 mean, this was the mantra. 7 Q Well, what did you understand that to mean to you? 8 A Don't disclose these two checks. 9 Q And then -- 10 THE COURT: This was on the conversation on 11 the -- which conversation are you talking about now? 12 THE WITNESS: It -- it was, like I said, on the 13 29th, we went through this. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 THE WITNESS: And then on the 30th, as I said 16 earlier, we basically rehashed the previous night's 17 conversation. And then, you know, things started 18 deteriorating. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Well, did you agree or disagree to concentrate on 21 the checks that you wrote only? 22 A I -- I said I was going to go down there and 23 reveal the existence of these two checks. 24 Q And then that's when everything deteriorated? 25 A It was getting to that point already, but yeah, 0330
1 that sort of finished it off. 2 THE COURT: Well, I'm -- I -- I'm trying to put 3 myself in this scenario. And I probably shouldn't 4 do that. But obviously, you're tying up a 5 discussion regarding a dismissal, trouble you were 6 in in Florida, problems with your wife and 7 children -- all of these things are being discussed. 8 Ken, you're saying, is saying, "Just 9 concentrate on the checks you wrote." You're 10 saying, "I'm going to get in trouble if I go down 11 there. I need the case dismissed." He's saying, 12 "No." 13 All this is going on during this -- these two 14 conversations? 15 THE WITNESS: The night of the 29th and the 16 30th, yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Yes, the 29th and the 18 30th. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: The 29th in the evening and the 22 morning of the 30th. 23 THE COURT: And you made it clear to him on 24 both the 29th and the 30th that if he didn't dismiss 25 the case, you were coming to Florida and telling the 0331
1 truth. 2 THE WITNESS: At that stage, it wasn't -- you 3 know, the morning of the 30th, you know, I wasn't 4 saying, you know, "You've got to dismiss the case." 5 I'm just saying that's what I'm going to be doing. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. So at the -- at the 7 conclusion of the -- the discussion you had with 8 him, he knew -- I would assume he'd know, if the 9 case were dismissed, there really wouldn't be much 10 need for you to continue the deposition or anything 11 like that. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 THE COURT: Right. 14 And so he knew what you were going to do when 15 he got there, and he basically told you to get a 16 hat. He was going forward. 17 THE WITNESS: That's right, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: I mean, that's my -- I don't know 19 what words you all used, but "get a hat" means, I'm 20 not going to do what you were saying. 21 THE WITNESS: I understood it in the context 22 you were saying, but I hadn't heard the expression 23 before. It's clear. 24 THE COURT: It's "go to hell." "Get a hat." 25 That's just a nice way to say it. 0332
1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: "I'm not doing it." 3 THE WITNESS: Right, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: Can we take a lunch break, your 6 Honor, now? 7 THE COURT: Seems like a good time -- 8 Are we -- 9 Well, we're not going to take a lunch break 10 until we're done. Are we done now with everything 11 on -- that you can remember on paragraph 6 dealing 12 with this statement of yours? "His statements 13 concerning case control became increasingly untrue 14 throughout my involvement in the case when 15 Mr. Dandar would do things in the litigation 16 designed to satisfy my wishes and thus get more 17 money from me." 18 Are we done? 19 I mean, we've talked about a lot of things this 20 morning. Do you have anything else you want to add 21 to that? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, what -- what I would 23 suggest, your Honor, is you let me just refresh my 24 memory by looking at the affidavit and see if 25 there's anything else that -- 0333
1 THE COURT: I will do that. But before we 2 leave for lunch -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: -- I want to know whether you have 5 anything that you can recall right now that 6 Mr. Dandar did in this litigation to, quote, satisfy 7 my wishes and get -- thus get more money from me. 8 You've talked about adding Miscavige; you've 9 talked about dismissing the case; you've talked 10 about filing a first amended complaint, getting more 11 into Scientology in the deposition; the attorneys 12 adding law firms -- those are the things that I 13 would all consider to deal with litigation designed 14 to satisfy your wishes. 15 Is there anything else you can think of at this 16 time that you would like to add to that? 17 And of course, I'll give you your opportunity 18 over lunch to think about it. But is there anything 19 else you can think of now? 20 THE WITNESS: Just, you know, off the top of my 21 head, not right this second, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Have you covered all the 23 things that you want to cover in number 6, 24 Mr. Fugate, as to "things in the litigation designed 25 to satisfy my wishes" and thus get more money from 0334
1 him? 2 MR. FUGATE: While you were -- while you 3 were -- 4 May I have a moment? 5 THE COURT: I mean, this started out, I think, 6 with just some question about adding Mr. Miscavige. 7 We've expanded quite a bit beyond that. I just want 8 to know if we've got something else we're going to 9 talk about. 10 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 11 Two heads are always better than one, Judge. 12 Let me see. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Going back to the religiosity issue that we had 15 talked about earlier -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- do you recall who -- well, I think you've 18 already testified that you were asking for challenges to the 19 beliefs and practices of Scientology. Do you remember 20 whether Mr. Dandar was -- 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What was that? How you 22 did begin that? 23 MR. FUGATE: He had testified earlier -- I'm 24 trying to go back to the religiosity issue. 25 Let me rephrase it. 0335
1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q On the religiosity issue, was that an issue that 3 was important to you, sir, challenging the religion? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q And did you think that it was being done 6 effectively by Mr. Dandar at the time that you told us about 7 Mr. Leipold and Mr. Greene becoming involved? 8 A No, it wasn't. 9 Q And did you want to see that become a more 10 prominent part of the case? 11 A Well, if there was any possibility to challenge 12 the religion of Scientology as being a valid religion, yes, 13 there was a real strong desire. 14 Q And did you -- 15 A No -- I mean, going back to -- 16 THE COURT: Did you really think that this 17 little circuit court judge was going to undo 18 something that had already been done by the United 19 States government, the state of Florida, the county 20 of Pinellas, the city of Clearwater -- did you 21 really believe that? 22 THE WITNESS: I think a lot of people thought 23 that was doable. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And I did believe it. 0336
1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q And was that -- was that a purpose of yours and of 4 the critic community in '97, '98, '99? 5 A Well, you know, nobody believed that the tax 6 status of Scientology, granted in 1993, I believe, was done 7 properly. 8 Q When you say nobody, what -- 9 A The critic community, generally. You know, 10 Mr. Dandar -- 11 THE COURT: You. 12 THE WITNESS: Me. You know, I was including 13 myself in the critic community. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 THE WITNESS: But yes, me specifically. 16 You know, everybody felt that there were some 17 real dirty deals that went on behind the scenes in 18 that. And you know, that date, you know, March 9th, 19 1997, when I was -- you know, met Mr. Dandar for the 20 first time, you know, there was the article, this 21 three-page article in the New York Times about 22 the -- the deal that Scientology got in 1993. 23 THE COURT: What deal? I don't know -- I 24 didn't read this article. 25 MR. FUGATE: You talking about the IRS? 0337
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. This was an article 2 written by a New York Times reporter named Douglas 3 France. I think it was called "The Shadowy Story 4 Behind the IRS -- Behind the Church of Scientology's 5 Tax Exemption." 6 THE COURT: And the deal was there was some 7 sort of a deal as to how they got the exemption? 8 Maybe I can read the article sometime. I don't 9 know what he's talking about. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Was that a belief in the critic community? 12 A Yes, it was. A very strongly held belief. 13 Q And at or about that time -- 14 THE COURT: Well, what was the belief? I don't 15 know. What was the belief? That there was a deal 16 cut? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, that, you know, Scientology 18 had blackmailed the IRS. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: And -- 21 THE COURT: So the deal was that Scientology 22 had done something wrong to get this tax exemption. 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 THE COURT: And had bribed an agent or -- 25 THE WITNESS: No. 0338
1 THE COURT: -- or commissioner or -- 2 THE WITNESS: The commissioner. 3 THE COURT: The whole wide -- 4 THE WITNESS: The whole -- 5 THE COURT: The head banana. 6 THE WITNESS: The head banana. 7 THE COURT: The top man. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Head banana. That's -- 10 that's -- 11 THE WITNESS: I think -- 12 THE COURT: -- a poor word. 13 The commissioner of the Internal Revenue 14 Service. 15 THE WITNESS: I think his name was Fred 16 Goldberg. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 THE WITNESS: But I could be wrong. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And in fact, what I was about to ask, at or about 21 that time, which would be March of 1997, had you offered a 22 reward on the Internet dealing with the tax exempt status? 23 A Yes. In -- I think it was March, 1997 -- 24 THE COURT: You know what? This is going to 25 get -- I didn't realize how late it was. This is 0339
1 going to get a little bit more, I guess, involved 2 than I thought, so let's go ahead and take our lunch 3 break. It's a quarter to 1. Let's be in recess 4 until 2:00. I've got some things I need -- I've got 5 a life besides this, and I've got to take care of 6 it. So if you don't mind, we'll go 1 until 2:00. 7 I'd like to see a copy of this article, if 8 anybody has it. 9 MR. FUGATE: Don't have it here, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 (A recess was taken.) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25