Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821?3320 Hillsborough (813)224?9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224?9500
1342
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00?5682?CI?11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 11
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of ROBERT MINTON.
17
DATE: May 28, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
1343
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602?4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE and
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602?5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003?9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
23 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701?3381
24 Attorney for Stacy Brooks.
25
1344
1 APPEARANCES: (Continued)
2
MR. BRUCE HOWIE
3 5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida.
4 Attorney for Robert Minton.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1345
1 THE COURT: Trying to keep you all abreast ?? I
2 had a three?day non?jury trial cancel for next week
3 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. So I am set ??
4 my secretary tells me they don't yet have senior
5 judge coverage for all those days so I'm lucky
6 because Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday doesn't
7 matter, that is gone, so this is on. I may or may
8 not be covered for Friday, so if I can't get
9 coverage, we'll just do Tuesday, Wednesday and
10 Thursday.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
12 THE COURT: But we're on for Tuesday, Wednesday
13 and Thursday. Okay?
14 Continue on.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm just marking some
16 more exhibits. Just what you want to hear.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, that little packet
18 that I told you we would put together?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: We're still putting it
21 together, the technology of binding it well. We'll
22 either get it to you later this afternoon or first
23 thing in the morning.
24 THE COURT: That is fine. That is fine.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Probably first thing tomorrow
1346
1 morning, given the way things usually work.
2 THE COURT: That will be fine. Thank you.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to ask my co?counsel to
4 come here and assist the clerk in marking these
5 other exhibits while I question Mr. Minton.
6 Mr. Lirot.
7 THE COURT: I don't think he heard you.
8 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't think he did.
9 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I ??
10 MR. DANDAR: Stand up and get over here.
11 MR. FUGATE: So I'm clear on the record, you
12 are talking about now we're going June 4, Tuesday;
13 June 5, Wednesday; Thursday, June 6; and if you get
14 coverage Friday, June 7?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. FUGATE: All right.
17 THE COURT: And you can assume that I'm going
18 to get covered. But if I don't, I'm sure nobody
19 will care if I give you?all Friday off.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: We would love a three?day
21 weekend.
22 THE COURT: I'm sure. I wouldn't mind myself,
23 but I have work that I have to do. Not that you?all
24 don't.
25 Okay, Mr. Dandar.
1347
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I substituted a new 57 for
2 the old 57, which I believe will be complete. And
3 if Mr. Minton has the old 57 ??
4 THE COURT: Oh, the one that he said wasn't
5 complete, he didn't think?
6 MR. DANDAR: Right.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. DANDAR: Maybe I already took it away.
9 THE WITNESS: This is it.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Take a look at the new one.
12 MR. DANDAR: I will hand that to the Court.
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Do you recognize that as your posting that you
16 authored in November 4 of '99?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And it talks about what the Lisa McPherson Trust
19 is all about. Are the statements in there about what the ??
20 why the Lisa McPherson Trust was established, correct?
21 A Excuse me?
22 Q The statement in this posting talks about why the
23 Lisa McPherson Trust was established. Is that correct?
24 THE COURT: Maybe ?? that is pretty long. Why
25 don't you show us where you are talking about.
1348
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 A Well, again, the first three paragraphs came out
3 of that section on the website. After that, it's my
4 comments.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q And was that website that you incorporated in this
7 posting ?? were those truthful statements ??
8 A Mmm ??
9 Q ?? the first three paragraphs?
10 A Well, they were Stacy Brooks' statements. But if
11 you want me to tell you whether I think she was truthful in
12 them ??
13 Q Well, did you adopt them as your own in this
14 posting?
15 A Well, let me read them. You know, I think I just
16 pasted it off of the website. You know, I wouldn't disagree
17 at the time with any of those statements.
18 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I would like to move that
19 into evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: No.
22 THE COURT: It will be received.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Now, Mr. Minton, are you aware that all of your
25 statements and declarations that were ?? used to be on the
1349
1 Lisa McPherson Trust website have now been removed?
2 A No. I'm not aware of that.
3 Q Are you aware that all of the Stacy Brooks
4 declarations that were up on the Lisa McPherson Trust
5 website have all been removed?
6 A I'm not aware of that.
7 Q If you were trying to get out of the ?? as you
8 call it ?? the Scientology litigation business, can you tell
9 me why you posted snippets of the movie The Profit on the
10 Lisa McPherson website?
11 A What does that have to do with the Scientology
12 litigation business? I don't find a connection there.
13 Q Well, didn't you say that that movie had something
14 to do with a parody of Scientology?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And did you post it up on the website, snippets?
17 A I did. I did.
18 Q And when was the last time that you are aware of
19 that a snippet of the movie The Profit was on the website?
20 A Mmm, the date of the letter that I sent to you.
21 Q Sent me a letter?
22 A Well, when Patricia Greenway filed a DMCA notice,
23 Digital Millennium Copyright Act notice against Pacer.com,
24 she sent copies of her post to you, to Mr. Lirot, to
25 Pacer.com, to Mark Bunker.
1350
1 And I, in turn, responded to that and sent copies
2 of the letter that I had given to Mark Bunker. And so
3 whatever the date of that letter was is the date that I last
4 knew that it was up there.
5 Q Are you saying you sent me a copy of the E?Mail
6 that you responded to?
7 A Not only did I do that, I sent you a copy of ??
8 PDF copy of ?? an Adobe Acrobat copy of the letter that I
9 gave to Mark Bunker, authorizing him to have those clips on
10 the website.
11 Q Okay. And one note before we get back to where we
12 left off before lunch. Did you retain an attorney to
13 represent your interests in seeking repayment from
14 Mr. Leipold in California?
15 A I did.
16 Q What is the attorney's name?
17 A Gary Soter.
18 Q How do you spell that?
19 A S?O?T?E?R.
20 Q And is he an attorney in California?
21 A He is.
22 Q And is he an attorney who either currently or in
23 the past has represented the interests of the Church of
24 Scientology?
25 A He has told me that he has never represented the
1351
1 Church of Scientology. We discussed potential conflicts of
2 interest in our first conversation.
3 Q Okay.
4 THE COURT: That was the money paid ?? excuse
5 me ?? the money you paid to Mr. Leipold?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, the principal ?? the
7 principal reason that I retained him was in
8 connection with the Wollersheim matter. But I also
9 asked him to look into the Leipold matter.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Is Mr. Leipold delinquent on his loan agreement to
13 you?
14 A He is.
15 Q How long has he been delinquent?
16 A I'm not certain.
17 Q All right.
18 A Several months. The last payment, I think, was
19 sometime in late 2001.
20 Q When you went to any of the meetings that you had
21 commencing March 28th with the Church of Scientology, did
22 you discuss with anyone at any of the meetings why they
23 wanted to depose your wife, Mrs. Minton?
24 A Mmm, no, I didn't.
25 Q Did your wife know that the Church of Scientology
1352
1 wanted to depose her?
2 A I told her.
3 Q When?
4 A Sometime shortly after you informed me.
5 Q Okay. The motion for commission is dated April 5,
6 2002, the day that you appeared before Judge Schaeffer on
7 the motion hearing for contempt. Did you tell her that day?
8 A I'm sure I told her very shortly after I heard
9 about it.
10 Q All right. Do you have Plaintiff's Exhibit 65 up
11 there, Mr. Minton?
12 THE COURT: I'm not sure if any of us has a 65.
13 Maybe we do.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, I have my copies but I
15 only ?? here it is. Never mind.
16 A No, I don't.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Okay, let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 65.
19 THE COURT: Well, maybe we did.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think we had that.
21 MR. DANDAR: Here it is.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I didn't get one
23 this big this morning ?? this thick, I should say.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q That is a 14?page document. Is that authored by
1353
1 you, Mr. Minton?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Are you going to ?? your Honor,
3 I ask he be given an opportunity to look through
4 this.
5 THE COURT: Okay. What does it mean up here
6 when it says: "Date 1999/10/01"?
7 MR. DANDAR: October 1st.
8 THE COURT: Who ?? is that a foreign way to
9 post dates?
10 MR. DANDAR: That is an Internet way to post
11 dates.
12 THE COURT: Is that the way you do it on the
13 Internet? Okay.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But it is done in Europe that
15 way.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. DANDAR: They also drive on the wrong side
18 of the road.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Only some places in Europe.
20 A I think it's because everything is geared toward
21 Greenwich mean time. That would be the dating system.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 A That would appear to be a ?? remarks I made at a
24 Cult Info Conference in 1999.
25
1354
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Entitled "The Warnings on the Evils of
3 Scientology"?
4 A Right.
5 Q Did you say anything on that conference contained
6 in this 14?page document that was posted on
7 alt.religion.scientology that you knew to be false?
8 A I didn't write everything in there. So unless I
9 read all 15 pages, I would have to withhold the final
10 opinion on that. But I don't think there was anything false
11 in there.
12 Q You do remember speaking at the conference in
13 February?
14 A I do.
15 Q You certainly wouldn't have gotten up in front of
16 a conference of people and told them any untruths, would
17 you?
18 A I would hope not.
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I move that into evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I ?? I think I might. I
22 haven't read it. I would like an opportunity to
23 read it before I tell you whether I object or not.
24 But what is the purpose of putting this in?
25 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
1355
1 THE COURT: Well, the purpose of anything, it
2 seems to me, is ?? it shows the ?? the obvious bias,
3 strong feelings, against ?? all of the things that
4 you might want to say ?? of Mr. Minton, I think
5 reflect on whether or not he's telling the truth on
6 all of the things he's testifying about.
7 MR. WEINBERG: But the way the question was
8 asked, was there anything you said untrue. And
9 looking at page after page, most of this stuff is
10 stuff he wouldn't know anyway.
11 The question is at the time did he believe what
12 he said, that is a different sort of question. But,
13 I mean, if this is being offered for the truth of
14 the matters asserted in here, I would object.
15 THE COURT: Oh, it is not.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 THE COURT: I mean, there is very little being
18 offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
19 MR. DANDAR: It's whether or not he believed
20 what he was saying was true.
21 THE COURT: Exactly. In other words, whether
22 he felt this way at the time, whether this is ?? he
23 felt was true and what he believed and what he
24 actually got up and said to some group and then
25 posted on the Internet.
1356
1 MR. WEINBERG: My only point is if it is
2 offered for that reason ?? I mean, you have got my
3 objection. If you ?? and the main reason I'm
4 objecting is I haven't read the document because we
5 couldn't go through 14 pages that quickly.
6 THE COURT: I tell you what, I'll take it home,
7 you take it home, I'll let it in, for the same
8 reason ?? these are postings ?? these are
9 Mr. Minton's postings. He put them on the Internet.
10 We let a lot of Ms. Brooks' affidavits in.
11 If there is anything in here that you ?? was
12 false and you knew it was false when you posted it,
13 when you have a chance to review it tonight, if you
14 will, come back and tell us tomorrow it is false.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 THE COURT: If it is something you said, you
17 knew it was false when you said it, then you
18 probably ought to tell us about it. That would have
19 some bearing, also.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to hand him
21 Plaintiff's Exhibit 68 for the same reason, which is
22 a Cult Info speech of April 19, 1998, to see if he
23 can identify that document.
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I just ask that if I
25 could have a copy of it that is not the Court's
1357
1 record.
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, let me do that.
3 THE COURT: Oh, yes. Absolutely.
4 MR. DANDAR: I tell you what, here is 68 that
5 is not the Court's record. Let me give this back to
6 the clerk, which is 68, then let me give you the
7 other one.
8 THE COURT: 65, that is awfully long. He can
9 take that home with him. As I said, if you are not
10 done today ?? probably not ?? if you come back
11 tomorrow, if there is anything in there you knew was
12 false and you posted it anyway ?? said it anyway,
13 then you can tell us about that.
14 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor.
15 THE COURT: If these were things you believed
16 at the time, then you don't ?? you don't have to
17 correct anything. I'm not suggesting, though,
18 Mr. Weinberg, that this is true.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I just wanted to
20 make that clear on the record.
21 THE COURT: I mean, I have read a lot of things
22 that I have received in here that, if I thought they
23 were true, we could all be very ?? a lot of this
24 stuff is the work of angry bigoted folks who make
25 things sound just as bad as they can, probably with
1358
1 very little knowledge, some of them.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: Some may have some knowledge. But,
4 in any event, I don't assume this stuff is true.
5 And when I ask about it, it's not that I'm assuming
6 it's true. It's that I'm assuming they believed it,
7 felt this way at this time.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, in Exhibit 68, is that also another posting
10 that you made, which was your speech to the Cult Info
11 conference in 1998?
12 A Yes. It's a different organization but, yeah.
13 Q Is it not the same organization?
14 A Well, the previous exhibit, I guess that is 67, is
15 the Leo J. Ryan Educational Foundation, which its short name
16 is Cult Info.
17 This is called Cult Information Service of New
18 York and New Jersey.
19 Q So is that a posting that you made?
20 A It is.
21 Q And the same with the other one, do you need time
22 to look over that to make sure it's accurate and it is the
23 speech you gave?
24 A Well, if it's an accurate representation of the
25 posting, I remember ?? you know, I wrote all of the speech.
1359
1 And, you know, at the time I would have believed that to be
2 true.
3 Q Okay. All right.
4 THE COURT: Nevertheless, we will still give
5 you the opportunity to look through it and see
6 whether you think it is accurate, or if you feel,
7 for some reason, it is not accurate, you can bring
8 that to our attention.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is clear, the
11 speech is April of '98 but the post is July of 2001,
12 just so the record is clear.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Which one is that? Is
14 that ??
15 MR. WEINBERG: That is the last one he gave
16 you, 68. It has a July of 2001 date on it.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. WEINBERG: But I guess the speech is 1998.
19 THE COURT: That's right, I see it up at the
20 top.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Now, Mr. Minton, were you sitting in court when a
23 video was played of people of the Lisa McPherson Trust being
24 videotaped by the surveillance cameras on the building of
25 the Church of Scientology as they were taking boxes out ??
1360
1 boxes out of the Lisa McPherson Trust, either to their cars
2 or to a Federal Express truck?
3 A I wasn't here for that.
4 Q Okay. Do you recall that event where people were
5 moving boxes?
6 A I wasn't there for it.
7 Q Do you know what was in those boxes?
8 A Mmm, I don't. Maybe you could help me with the
9 dates and things like that. I might be able to give you
10 some idea.
11 Q I don't remember the dates, either.
12 At any time did you ever order destruction of
13 records that were under court order to be produced by the
14 Lisa McPherson Trust?
15 A I don't think so.
16 Q Did the Lisa McPherson ??
17 A I ?? I ordered, you know, the hard drives to be
18 removed and sent to me in New Hampshire.
19 Q Why?
20 A Well, according to John Merrett, there wasn't an
21 order saying they had to be there, and he felt that they
22 were going to be subject to being frozen in the premises.
23 Q And what did those hard drives contain?
24 A I have never looked at any of the hard drives, so
25 I don't know.
1361
1 Q All right. Did you ??
2 THE COURT: Was it a privacy issue? In other
3 words ??
4 THE WITNESS: It was a privacy issue.
5 THE COURT: You felt there were things on there
6 that really shouldn't be out of the hands of LMT,
7 and you were trying to keep it from getting into the
8 public ??
9 THE WITNESS: Domain, yes.
10 THE COURT: ?? domain?
11 THE WITNESS: But, you know, each of the
12 computers would have had people's personal material,
13 you know, E?Mails and things like that. You know,
14 depending on their vigilance in destroying E?Mails,
15 which was supposed to be done, but some people never
16 did. I think Stacy Brooks was the worst offender in
17 terms of deleting her E?Mail promptly. And so Grady
18 Ward and I used to have to go in and get her to do
19 it.
20 But, Mmm, you know, it was a privacy issue.
21 And Mr. Merrett said there is absolutely no reason
22 that we can't, up until the minute that this order
23 is signed, take those out.
24 And, you know, he speculated, about two weeks
25 before this order ultimately did get signed, that ??
1362
1 that this might happen. And he said, you know, we
2 should get those out of there. So ??
3 MR. FUGATE: Could we have a date, Judge, just
4 so we know what orders were in place?
5 THE COURT: I'm not sure he knows, himself.
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 THE COURT: And I'm not sure I do, either.
8 That is part of the problem is those orders kept
9 coming and coming, because it seemed like nobody was
10 paying any attention to them, so the Church would go
11 in and get the Judge to say, "Well, try again." So
12 I don't know, myself, to be honest.
13 Do you, Mr. Minton, know?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know the dates, your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: In fact, I asked somebody to get me
17 a set of those orders.
18 MR. FUGATE: Judge, you did. And I'm working
19 on the time line that will place all this ??
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUGATE: ?? in a sequence. But there is a
22 bunch ??
23 THE COURT: Yes, there are.
24 MR. FUGATE: ?? so it will take a little bit.
25 But I'll have that either this afternoon or tomorrow
1363
1 morning for you.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, was your information ??
3 or was your communication regarding either the
4 destruction of records or the removal of hard drives
5 or whatever was being done at LMT ?? was your
6 direction on that legally from Mr. Merrett?
7 THE WITNESS: He ?? with respect to the hard
8 drives, because that one I was directly involved in,
9 yes, it came from John Merrett.
10 He gave other instructions to other people that
11 related to other items.
12 THE COURT: You were not getting your
13 direction ?? or as far as you know, they were not
14 getting their direction on these things from
15 Mr. Dandar, is that true?
16 THE WITNESS: No. No, they weren't, not with
17 respect to the hard drives.
18 THE COURT: How about whatever else ?? I mean,
19 we did see a whole lot of folks toting out a whole
20 lot of boxes. Nobody knows what was in them.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, for example, I
22 don't know what the time frame here is, but I know
23 there were a bunch of boxes that I asked people to
24 send. And those were ?? in our library, we had a
25 lot of collectible items, you know, original
1364
1 magazines and publications by L. Ron Hubbard, you
2 know, photographs of L. Ron Hubbard, you know,
3 autographed, and, you know, original E?meters, the
4 early E?meter, the old Lee Matheson E?meter or
5 something of that nature, and a bunch of other
6 E?meters. And these were considered collectible
7 items. I mean, they weren't worth anything other
8 than their collector's value.
9 And so I had asked Jeff Jacobsen to ?? to take
10 all those boxes and send them up to me in New
11 Hampshire, you know. Depending what happened ?? I
12 didn't know what was going to happen with regard to
13 the library material, which subsequently got
14 inspected and, you know, it was okay to be released
15 and it was released, but those collectible items I
16 didn't figure could be anything other than potential
17 fodder for all kinds of arguments between LMT and
18 Scientology about ??
19 THE COURT: Who they belonged to and whether
20 you ?? there were copyright violations or things
21 like that?
22 THE WITNESS: Well, no, these were all original
23 materials. So it wasn't a question of copyright
24 violation. These were not part of any ?? shredded
25 in that massive copyright shredding exercise.
1365
1 These were things that had some monetary value
2 to them. And, you know, I didn't think it was
3 either safe or prudent to keep them there.
4 THE COURT: So ?? so some of the things that we
5 saw carried out most likely were people putting
6 things in cars or what have you so they could return
7 them to you at your request?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, no, because anything that
9 was sent to me was sent by Fed Ex. And, you know,
10 in total, it couldn't have been more than like 15
11 boxes.
12 THE COURT: Well, that is a lot of boxes.
13 We ?? I don't know how many boxes we saw carried
14 out. But there were many boxes. I mean ??
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 THE COURT: ?? I don't know how many boxes were
17 carried out, 20, 30.
18 MR. DANDAR: Probably that many.
19 THE COURT: I don't know. But some of them
20 could have been people taking boxes to Fed Ex to
21 ship to you, is that what you are saying?
22 THE WITNESS: For that volume of boxes, I think
23 they would have just had the Fed Ex truck come by.
24 THE COURT: To pick them up?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, but I'm not sure, your
1366
1 Honor. I don't know how they did it. I wasn't
2 there.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q But that was ?? the library was a pretty big
5 library that LMT had acquired, correct?
6 A Well, I had acquired it.
7 Q You personally acquired it, correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And you personally weren't subject to any
10 order of the Court, is that right?
11 A Mmm, I think I was subject to a bunch of court
12 orders.
13 Q Okay. But ??
14 A But not for that type of material, for sure.
15 Q Right. The bottom line is did you participate in
16 removal or destruction of anything from the LMT that was
17 subject to a court order?
18 A The ?? I don't think so.
19 Q All right.
20 A The only thing that I was very keen on making sure
21 happened was that the records of the people who had come to
22 the LMT were taken out of the LMT.
23 Q The identity, their problems, whatever they said?
24 A Yeah, whatever their ?? whatever they came to talk
25 to us about that was protected, should be protected.
1367
1 Q And what form of media was that recorded onto?
2 A Well, some of it was, you know, hard copies. And
3 that got shredded. And all of the documents got reduced to
4 digital form.
5 Q CDs?
6 A They eventually ended up on CDs.
7 Q And where are those CDs today?
8 A Mmm, they're in Europe.
9 Q Are they with anyone who has any type of
10 relationship with the Church of Scientology?
11 A Mmm, absolutely not.
12 Q Are you protecting those documents so that they do
13 not get in the hands of the Church of Scientology?
14 A Well, you know, what happened, you know, learning
15 from past experience, the Church of Scientology purchased
16 the assets of the Cult Awareness Network in bankruptcy. And
17 among the assets were the records of people who had gone to
18 the Cult Awareness Network for help.
19 And, you know, my concern was that that didn't
20 happen in the case of the people who had come to the LMT for
21 help.
22 Q So did you have any discussions with anyone
23 representing the Church of Scientology, attorney or
24 otherwise, this year where this was discussed, the
25 information that people who came to the LMT for help?
1368
1 A Absolutely no discussions of that sort.
2 Q And no promise has been made to turn over this
3 material to anyone that is connected to or related to the
4 Church of Scientology, is that right?
5 A Well, there is no promise been made yet.
6 Q Oh, so ??
7 A Because ?? no, and there won't be any promise made
8 that that would be turned over.
9 Q Because?
10 A But ?? but the point of the matter is, is that
11 we're not into discussing any of those kind of things. You
12 know, there are just no discussions going along outside of
13 this area of setting the record straight. That is it.
14 Q The topic that we already discussed before lunch
15 about Mr. Rosen on March 28th was the $34,925,000 you caused
16 Scientology to spend, according to Mr. Rosen.
17 What was the next ??
18 A Well, they didn't say, you know, that "you caused
19 Scientology to spend." This is the ?? this is the amount
20 that we've spent on litigation that you're involved in.
21 Q Okay.
22 A And some of that was defined as being pre my
23 involvement. Some was defined as post my involvement.
24 Q Was that said by Mr. Rosen in a rather amicable,
25 friendly fashion? Or was it stated to you in a rather stern
1369
1 fashion?
2 A Mmm, I think you have been in deposition with
3 Mr. Rosen. Mr. Rosen is fairly brusk at the best of times.
4 Q Okay. And what was the next topic of
5 conversation?
6 A Mmm ??
7 Q What I'm saying is after he told you and gave you
8 this list with the monetary values, and you added it up to
9 be $34,925,000, what was the point of why he was saying that
10 to you?
11 A He didn't make a point as to why he was saying it.
12 He was just laying it out.
13 Q Okay. Then what was that followed with?
14 A Mmm, that when we ?? when we did reach any
15 settlement, that there were a number of things that would
16 have to be done or issues of concern to them that would have
17 to be dealt with, you know, in the process of settling.
18 One had to do with certain domain names that we
19 owned ?? or that I owned, you know, that had "Scientology"
20 in them.
21 One had to do with, you know, mutual releases.
22 You know, off the top of my head, that is all that
23 I remember.
24 Q Domain names that had "Scientology" in them and
25 mutual releases? Did I miss any?
1370
1 A Those are the two that I said I remember.
2 Q Dandarlaw.com, was that one of the domain names?
3 A That doesn't have "Scientology" in it and it
4 wasn't mentioned.
5 Q Okay.
6 A I don't think they care about Dandarlaw.com.
7 Q I would hope not.
8 Wait a minute. You come into the meeting the
9 first time with Mr. Rosen, he goes over this list of cases
10 for 30 million, 34 million?plus, then he says ?? the next
11 topic is ??
12 A No, Mr. Rosen only addressed litigation matters.
13 Everything else was addressed by Mr. Rinder.
14 Q Okay. So when Mr. Rinder ?? or Mr. Rosen
15 mentioned the litigation cases that you are involved in and
16 the amounts, didn't he follow that through with ?? give you
17 the reason why he was mentioning that, what had to be done
18 about those litigation matters?
19 A As much as he probably wanted to, Mr. Rinder took
20 charge of the conversation after that part of it.
21 Q All right. And Mr. Rinder said, "As part of this
22 ongoing global settlement, we have to talk about the domain
23 names that contain the word 'Scientology' and mutual
24 releases"?
25 A Yes. And, I mean, the key thing ?? you know,
1371
1 there were like seven or eight broad categories that they
2 mentioned of ?? areas of concern that ?? that this eventual
3 settlement agreement would deal with.
4 Q Did someone have a list that they were reading
5 from?
6 A No.
7 Q Just off the top of their head, they had these
8 seven areas?
9 A Well, Mr. Rinder did.
10 Q He had no notes in front of him?
11 A Not that I can remember.
12 Q So you mentioned two out of seven.
13 A Well, three out of seven.
14 Q Domain names. Mutual releases. What else?
15 A Litigation. That was the third.
16 THE COURT: Litigation was the one from which
17 this figure came as far as ?? that was the combined
18 litigation?
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 A Well, some of the others, yeah, I can think of a
21 couple others here.
22 Mmm, some sort of an agreement relative to further
23 funding of any sort of litigation.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Any litigation? Or just ??
1372
1 A Involving Scientology. There wasn't any mention
2 of any cases. It was just any further funding.
3 Q Okay. That is four.
4 A Mmm, that's all I can remember.
5 Q So that Mr. Rinder said, "I want you to agree not
6 to provide any further funding to any litigation involving
7 the Church of Scientology"?
8 A Well, that was one of the broad general concerns.
9 Yes.
10 Q And what did he say about litigation? "I don't
11 want you to be involved in any more litigation"?
12 A Well, if I'm not going to be funding it, I'm not
13 going to be involved in it.
14 Oh, part of the mutual release thing also involved
15 agreeing not to sue Scientology. That they wouldn't sue me,
16 you know, in the future, once we entered into a settlement
17 agreement.
18 Q That is usually what a mutual release is.
19 Anything else?
20 A Not that I can remember.
21 Q Did Mr. ??
22 A Mr. Jonas took notes. I didn't.
23 Q So Mr. Jonas still has those notes?
24 A Mmm, I would have to ask him. I don't know.
25 MR. DANDAR: I would ask the Court to make
1373
1 Mr. Jonas fax it to Mr. Howie so we can see the
2 seven areas of discussion, not his comments, but
3 just the seven areas of discussion.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
5 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I can attempt to
6 contact Mr. Jonas to ascertain if such document
7 exists in his custody.
8 THE COURT: And without turning over notes,
9 this would simply be Mr. Minton can't remember the
10 seven areas, seven or eight areas of inquiry, if he
11 has any notes to reflect those seven or eight and
12 would share them with you, I don't think that would
13 be privileged.
14 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I'll make that inquiry
15 as soon as I can.
16 THE COURT: Thank you.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Now, what domain names, Mr. Minton, are you
19 connected with in any way that has the name "Scientology" in
20 it that Mr. Rinder was concerned about?
21 A Mmm, I think there is three domains. Scientology
22 Watch. There is Reform Scientology. I don't remember how
23 many names are involved, whether it is one, two or three.
24 Mmm, he didn't ?? you know, they didn't specify any of the
25 names. But I'm just saying those are some that I know of.
1374
1 Q Why was that of any concern to them, did they say?
2 A They didn't.
3 Q What did they want you to do, close down the
4 websites?
5 A There aren't any websites. They are just domain
6 names.
7 Q Oh. Did they want you to close down any websites?
8 A They didn't ask about that.
9 Q Have they ever asked about that?
10 A No, they haven't.
11 Q Okay. What did they discuss about litigation?
12 A Mr. Rosen went through that list. That's it.
13 Q Well, what did Mr. Rinder say about litigation?
14 A Well, he didn't say anything about the litigation,
15 as far as I can remember.
16 Q Were you at this meeting with Mr. Rosen,
17 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling, and your attorney, Ms. Brooks,
18 all day on March 28th?
19 A Yeah, except for lunch. We went out for lunch.
20 Q So you got there, what, 9 o'clock in the morning?
21 A Right. And I think we left around 3:30 or 4. It
22 was Passover and Mr. Rosen had to go early.
23 Q Well, was there anything agreed upon on Thursday,
24 March 28th?
25 A With regards to any of those broad areas?
1375
1 Q Yes.
2 A No.
3 Q Was there anything else discussed from 9 to 3:30
4 or 4 o'clock except for your lunch break? Was there
5 anything else discussed?
6 A Well, we discussed the areas that were of concern
7 to us ?? me, principally.
8 Q And what was that?
9 A Mmm, that, you know, basically if we were going
10 to ?? if I was going to be getting out of this, we wanted to
11 get out of it altogether, we wanted to disengage from
12 Clearwater.
13 We wanted to ?? Mmm ?? either sell or transfer our
14 building to Scientology.
15 We wanted to make sure that Jesse Prince's house
16 could be sold.
17 Mmm, you know, we wanted to make sure that the
18 Church of Scientology would not, you know, follow me, hassle
19 my family or anything like that.
20 You know, we ?? we mentioned that we had issues to
21 discuss about the movie, The Profit.
22 Q Who brought up the movie?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he at least
24 finish his answer ??
25 THE COURT: Yes.
1376
1 MR. WEINBERG: ?? then let Mr. Dandar go back?
2 THE COURT: Yes, let him continue. He's now
3 telling us all of the things he wanted to discuss,
4 then you can go back and ask him ??
5 A I think I did, or Mr. Jonas did. And it was, in
6 fact, also on their list.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Is that one of the seven?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Seven or eight?
11 A Uh?huh.
12 Q Is that a yes?
13 A That is a yes.
14 Q Okay. What else did you want for yourself?
15 A Well, to be able to get out of this litigation
16 completely. That was the main thing. You know, to
17 completely disengage from it. To have them, you know, stop
18 the discovery issues that were going on, to try to ?? to try
19 to put off these contempt matters. You know, everything
20 that is related to this litigation down here in Florida.
21 THE COURT: Are those the two lawsuits, the one
22 here and the one in Clearwater?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, because those are the ones
24 that we were, you know, most involved with.
25
1377
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you talk about the federal case in Texas?
3 A Mmm, no. I think that was ?? I think from their
4 perspective, that was, you know, a adjunct to the Florida
5 cases.
6 Q Did they talk about you being responsible in any
7 manner for what they alleged in Texas, in adding on David
8 Miscavige, with approval of Judge Moody, that they were
9 going to supplement you as a responsible party?
10 MR. FUGATE: I object to the "with the approval
11 of Judge Moody" portion of that.
12 THE COURT: First of all, the question is so
13 long, I don't even remember what it is all about.
14 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, Judge. I'll rephrase
15 it.
16 THE COURT: Rephrase it.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Did they talk to you about making you a party
19 defendant somehow in the Texas case so they could collect
20 their judgment?
21 A No. But, you know, it never escaped me for a
22 moment that there was only one deep pocket for them to come
23 after.
24 Q That was you?
25 A Yeah.
1378
1 Q So what was paramount in your mind, how to prevent
2 Bob Minton from paying money to Scientology, or stopping the
3 contempt hearings before Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird?
4 A Well, the most paramount thing in my mind was to
5 get out of this litigation completely. The contempt
6 hearings, the ?? in front of Judge Schaeffer and Judge
7 Baird, all of the discovery that was laid out in the course
8 of the next six weeks, you know, to completely disengage
9 from the litigation business.
10 Q What discovery was laid out for the next six weeks
11 as of March 28, 2002?
12 A Mmm, Mr. ?? or Mr. Jonas and Ms. Brooks were on
13 top of that. Not me.
14 Q Well ??
15 A But there was quite a bit.
16 Q Any discussions about conducting further discovery
17 into the source of the money to the LMT from Operation
18 Clambake and the wire transfer?
19 A No.
20 Q I mean from anonymous sources?
21 A No. There was no discussion of that.
22 Q Wasn't that a concern of yours?
23 A Mmm, yes, that was a concern.
24 Q And wouldn't you put that concern at the top of
25 your list, since you pled the Fifth Amendment in this court
1379
1 in refusing to identify the source of that money?
2 A Well, I would put at the top of my list going to
3 jail.
4 Q Because?
5 A Because of perjury.
6 Q The perjury that you're talking about, in your
7 mind, is the one where you did not disclose the UBS check to
8 me in May of 2000. Is that one of them?
9 A That's right.
10 Q And that was the only deposition you ever had in
11 this case where you answered a question about how much money
12 you gave me, is that correct?
13 A I don't believe so.
14 Q Well, Mr. Minton, your other two depositions,
15 September and October, you pled the Fifth Amendment to all
16 those questions concerning money, isn't that correct?
17 A Perhaps.
18 Q So if I'm correct ?? and it is, it is on the
19 record ?? all the questions concerning money in September
20 and October, this case and Judge Baird's case, you pled the
21 Fifth Amendment. The only time you ever answered a question
22 about how much money you paid me was in May of 2000, that
23 deposition.
24 MR. FUGATE: If that is a statement of the
25 record, it's inaccurate and I would just object to
1380
1 it on that basis.
2 THE COURT: Yes. I know he spoke about it in
3 his first deposition of 1/13/98.
4 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm not even counting that
5 one.
6 MR. FUGATE: There were questions by Mr. Dandar
7 in September, I think, and October ??
8 MR. WEINBERG: According to my notes,
9 September 18, 2001 in his deposition, Page 29, lines
10 5 through 8, and Page 30, lines 3 through 19, I
11 believe he was asked by ?? asked about it. And he
12 reconfirmed it was $1,050,000. That is what my
13 notes say.
14 THE WITNESS: Plus the amounts that were given
15 from that Bank of America check since then. I
16 did ?? I remember that in September, I believe.
17 THE COURT: Which one are we talking about?
18 THE WITNESS: The September 2001 deposition.
19 THE COURT: Was that about Clambake?
20 THE WITNESS: No. No. It was about ?? you
21 know, I'd previous ?? in the ?? in the previous
22 deposition of May of 2000 I testified, I think,
23 $1,050,000.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: Then I said to Mr. Moxon, plus
1381
1 that $250,000, that being the check from Bank of
2 America. So I was saying $1.3 million.
3 THE COURT: That was in September?
4 THE WITNESS: I believe that is the one.
5 THE COURT: Is that where the 1.3 comes in?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Yes, your Honor, May of
7 2001 there was a $250,000 check which we got in
8 discovery just before this September 2001 depo. So
9 the 1.3 is 1,050,000 plus 250.
10 THE COURT: But the 250 came after the
11 May 2000?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it came in May of 2001.
13 It's in evidence.
14 MR. DANDAR: You know what, if I'm wrong, I'm
15 wrong. The depos will speak for themselves.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we have a sheet that we'll
17 give Mr. Dandar and you that sort of lays ?? I mean,
18 you asked for this.
19 THE COURT: Right.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'll hand it up. Here is a copy
21 of it. It is our work. I think it's correct.
22 THE COURT: Thank you.
23 MR. DANDAR: I'll look that up.
24 THE COURT: Thank you.
25
1382
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What was discussed about the litigation? What did
3 Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen say about the litigation that you
4 were involved with?
5 A Well, Mr. Rosen just recited facts, you know,
6 case, amounts spent, amounts to be spent.
7 Q How would Mr. ?? did Mr. Rinder tell you how he
8 could foresee how much money his client was going to spend
9 in the future on each case?
10 A Well, you know, Mr. Rinder is the person inside
11 the Church of Scientology who is responsible for all
12 litigation. So I presume that he has a better idea of that
13 than anybody else in the organization.
14 Q Okay. So, I mean, we all know Mr. Rosen. You're
15 telling us that is all Mr. Rosen said in eight hours or so?
16 THE COURT: He didn't even say that much. That
17 was Mr. Rinder doing most of that talking.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q The list, that is all he said, Mr. Rosen. He gave
20 you the list ??
21 A Well, whenever ?? whenever there were any points
22 of contention, Mr. Rosen would be the bad guy. You know, he
23 clearly was ?? you know, that was his role there, as far as
24 I could tell. You know, Mr. Rinder was sort of being the
25 good guy, and Mr. Rosen was the bad guy.
1383
1 So, you know, during the course of that day, at
2 least three or four times, you know, they would go off and
3 meet, we would stay in the room and meet, or we would go off
4 and meet and they would stay in the room, just to talk about
5 where we were, you know, a caucus, sort of.
6 Q So what did they talk about? What did Rinder talk
7 about in reference to the litigation issue?
8 A Well, if you want to get off of the broad areas
9 and get into any specific area, we can do that. But as far
10 as the broad areas, he didn't have any further discussions
11 about it.
12 Q All right. Have we talked ??
13 THE COURT: What we would really like, because,
14 Mr. Dandar ?? I don't know what the deal is here.
15 What he would really like, he would like to know as
16 much as you can remember about what was said.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Then ?? you can wait until he's
19 done, then you can pick the part you want to talk
20 about.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q All right. So keep telling us everything you can
23 remember about what was said.
24 A Well, the ?? the principal thing that was said,
25 you know, after we both went through our general concerns
1384
1 about coming to a settlement, was that from the Church of
2 Scientology's standpoint ?? and this was Mr. Rinder
3 talking ?? that it was imperative, before we could even
4 begin settlement talks, that Stacy Brooks and I come to
5 Florida and set the record straight in the wrongful death
6 case and the breach of contract case.
7 You know, they said, you know, "We ?? we don't
8 believe that you've been completely forthcoming in what has
9 gone on in this case."
10 THE COURT: Are you trying to say now he was
11 more concerned about that breach of contract case up
12 there in Clearwater than he was about this case down
13 here in St. Petersburg?
14 THE WITNESS: No. But he was definitely
15 talking about both cases. I mean, clearly in terms
16 of the list, the Florida cases were the ones where
17 the most money had been spent.
18 THE COURT: Are you saying that they had an
19 equal concern about the case up in Clearwater as
20 they did about the case down here in St. Petersburg?
21 THE WITNESS: No. I believe this one was of
22 more concern, without any doubt. But I'm just
23 saying they were talked about together, as opposed
24 to separately.
25
1385
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What else did they say?
3 A Well, you know, from that point on, you know, we
4 began to try to extract some concessions concerning
5 discovery, concerning the contempt hearings. And, you know,
6 there was a lot of dancing around about that. And,
7 basically, they weren't interested in dancing.
8 Q What else?
9 A Well, I mean, in essence, that is what the meeting
10 consisted of. That meeting and the next morning were all
11 revolving around this, you know, setting the record
12 straight, and us trying to get them to agree to
13 postponements or cancellations of the contempt hearings or
14 whatever we could do.
15 And, you know, we were only there about an hour, I
16 guess, the second morning.
17 Stacy Brooks got really upset, you know, and stood
18 up and said, you know, "You're not talking with us in good
19 faith."
20 And Mr. Jonas tried to calm everything down, and
21 they went out of the room. And we talked. And basically we
22 said that ?? well, Mr. Jonas called up Mr. Rosen's office
23 where they had all gone to and said, "We don't think we have
24 anything to discuss any further and we're going to leave."
25 And so we left.
1386
1 Q And before you called me on Friday night,
2 March 29th, did you have any further discussions with
3 Mr. Rosen?
4 A No. Mr. Rinder called about an hour after we
5 left, at Mr. Jonas' office, in New York. And I spoke to
6 him.
7 And he said, "Look, you know, I just want you to
8 know that despite the fact that we couldn't come to any
9 meeting of the minds here, the door is not closed. If you
10 want to talk to us some more, we're willing to talk." And
11 then, you know, we went off.
12 And I did call him later the next week to set up a
13 meeting down here in Florida.
14 Q Anything else on the 28th or 29th of March before
15 you called me the night of the 29th?
16 A Well, I called you the night of the 28th first.
17 Q Okay. Anything that we haven't ?? you haven't
18 mentioned yet that transpired in Mr. Rosen's office on
19 March 28th?
20 A Not that I can remember.
21 Q Okay. You called me on the night of the 28th.
22 What did you say? What was that about?
23 A Well, I said that I wanted to set up a meeting
24 with you and Dell.
25 Q Did you say why?
1387
1 A No. I said as soon as possible next week.
2 Q And did I ask you why?
3 A No. You didn't.
4 Q I just said, "Okay"?
5 A Well, keep in mind that you were aware that we
6 were going down there to meet with them. You know, I didn't
7 think that I had to say, "Well, you know, we met with these
8 guys and I think we need to sit down and talk."
9 Q Did you discuss any of the seven or eight
10 categories with me on the night of the 28th of March?
11 A Not that I can remember. I think it was a very
12 short call. There were several people standing around and I
13 couldn't talk.
14 Q Who was standing around?
15 A There was Stacy Brooks, Steve Jonas, and a couple
16 other people who were attorneys unconnected with this
17 matter.
18 Q Okay, let's go to the date of March 28th and let's
19 see if we can get more specific. Of course what I'm
20 interested in is litigation as one of the seven or eight
21 categories. I want to know everything that was said about
22 litigation as being a point of interest for Mr. Rinder.
23 A You wanted to know ?? you want to know what?
24 Q I want to know what Mr. Rinder said that he wanted
25 you to do or he wanted to happen as part of his negotiations
1388
1 with you concerning litigation.
2 A Well, as I said, the only one who really talked
3 about the litigation generally was Mr. Rosen, you know. And
4 Mr. Rinder talked about how setting the record straight in
5 Florida was a precondition to getting into negotiations.
6 Q Okay. What did Mr. Rinder say he meant by setting
7 the record straight in Florida?
8 A Mmm, you know, he didn't say that, you know, "You
9 guys have outright lied." He implied that there have been a
10 lot of things untold or covered up that need to come out.
11 And that was how he was talking about setting the record
12 straight in Florida. He mentioned absolutely zero
13 specifics. It was very broad and very general.
14 Q Well, then how do you know that Mr. Rinder wasn't
15 just sitting there calling your bluff if he wasn't so
16 specific as to what he meant by setting the record straight?
17 A Well, Stacy Brooks and I knew what the bluff was,
18 if it was a bluff, which wasn't a bluff, if you follow what
19 that meant. You know, we knew it wasn't a bluff.
20 Q He didn't mention one topic at all to you to back
21 up what he said, setting the record ??
22 A Zero.
23 Q ?? setting the record straight?
24 A Zero.
25 Q So you sat there, and you and Ms. Brooks heard him
1389
1 say, "You have to set the record straight in Florida," and
2 how did you respond to that?
3 A We didn't discuss anything about setting the
4 record straight. What we tried to do is, "Look, if we're
5 going to do that, we've got to get some concessions here."
6 Q You didn't respond by saying, "What do you mean by
7 setting the record straight?"
8 A We did not.
9 Q Did you say anything or make a gesture or anything
10 that would imply, directly or indirectly, to Mr. Rinder or
11 Mr. Rosen, "Yeah, you're right, we do need to set the record
12 straight in Florida"?
13 A No.
14 Q So when he said, "Set the record straight," you
15 two sat mute and didn't respond at all?
16 A Mmm, by and large, yes. Yes.
17 Q What does that "by and large" mean?
18 A By and large, that is what we did.
19 Q Does that mean yes, we just sat there quietly and
20 looked at him?
21 And did he respond or make a gesture or anything?
22 A Almost all of the discussion ?? that first day,
23 almost none of the discussion was I involved in. Mr. Jonas
24 was doing the talking.
25 Q So you sat ??
1390
1 A You know, I would come in, I would say something
2 every now and then. But Mr. Jonas was, by and large, doing
3 all of the talking. Stacy Brooks did some.
4 Q Okay. What did Mr. Jonas say when Mr. Rinder
5 said, "You first have to set the record straight in
6 Florida"?
7 A Mmm, he didn't say anything, really. He ?? he
8 talked to Stacy and I about it at the next time we had a
9 caucus.
10 Q What did Stacy Brooks say when Mr. Rinder said,
11 "You have to set the record straight in Florida"?
12 A I don't believe she said a thing.
13 Q And did Mr. Rinder say anything more than, "You
14 have to set the record straight in Florida"?
15 A Concerning what?
16 Q For example, did he say, "And what I mean by that,
17 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, is that I know you lied under
18 oath in your depositions"?
19 A No, he never said anything of the kind.
20 Q Or did he say, "I know, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks,
21 that you destroyed documents that were subject to a court
22 order"?
23 A He never mentioned anything like that.
24 Q So he didn't explain himself at all when he used
25 the phrase "set the record straight"?
1391
1 A You know, I think that Ms. Brooks and I had a
2 better understanding of what that meant than anybody.
3 Q What was the answer to my question?
4 A No, he never said anything about any specifics
5 concerning anything about setting the record straight.
6 Q That whole day?
7 A No.
8 Q Correct?
9 A The whole day and the next day.
10 Q All right. So when did someone like Mr. Rinder or
11 Mr. Rosen, or anyone else representing the interests of the
12 Church of Scientology on March 28th or March 29th, say
13 anything to you about dismissing the Lisa McPherson case?
14 A Mr. Rinder stated at some point that, "We think
15 that if you set the record straight in the Florida cases,
16 the case ?? the wrongful death case will be dismissed."
17 Q When did he say that?
18 A Sometime in the afternoon.
19 Q Of what day?
20 A The first day.
21 Q And you sat there and Mr. Jonas sat there and
22 Ms. Brooks sat there and you didn't say, "What do you mean?
23 Explain yourself. What are you talking about?" Did you say
24 any of those things?
25 A Mmm, well, Mr. Jonas' feeling was that ?? Mmm,
1392
1 that this was ?? that Scientology was playing hard ball to
2 try to get a settlement in the case.
3 Q Here?
4 A Yeah, in the wrongful ??
5 Q With the estate?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q With the estate?
8 A But I didn't, you know, see it that way. And I'm
9 not sure how Ms. Brooks saw it. I mean, even when we left,
10 you know, Mr. Jonas said, you know, "I just think they're
11 playing hard ball to try to get a settlement."
12 THE COURT: With whom, pray tell?
13 THE WITNESS: With the estate.
14 THE COURT: Oh.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Is it your testimony when Mr. Rinder said, "If you
17 set the record straight in Florida, that will result in a
18 dismissal of the wrongful death case"?
19 A Yes. He said something to that effect, yeah.
20 Q Did he say that in the morning, or in the
21 afternoon?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Asked and answered.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. DANDAR: Did I miss that?
25 THE COURT: Yes, you did.
1393
1 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
2 THE COURT: The afternoon of the first day, as
3 I recall.
4 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he said.
5 MR. DANDAR: I knew it was the first day. All
6 right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q And nobody asked him to explain himself?
9 A Mmm, you know, I really don't think so.
10 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that what Mr. Rinder
11 said to you was, "If you want a global settlement with the
12 Church of Scientology, you, Mr. Minton, have to get the Lisa
13 McPherson case dismissed"?
14 A That's not what he said. You know, Mr. Dandar, I
15 think you have to give Mr. Rinder a little bit of credit.
16 You know, Mr. Rinder didn't go in there, you know,
17 threatening anybody. He didn't go in there saying, you
18 know, "You told X, Y and Z lies."
19 They were obviously delicate matters that he was
20 talking about. And I believe he dealt with them in a way
21 that was appropriate, given what was going on there.
22 Q Are you and Mr. Rinder friends now?
23 A We've never gone out to a restaurant together or
24 bowling or anything like that. But, you know, I don't ?? I
25 don't find ?? I find him to be a very nice person.
1394
1 Q Ms. Brooks find him to be a very nice person, as
2 well?
3 A I believe she does.
4 Q Have you ever met with Mr. Miscavige?
5 A No.
6 Q Just ??
7 A You know ??
8 Q Before we go off ?? I'm sorry, go ahead.
9 A You know, I think one of the problems that all of
10 us have had, and I include you in that, is that we have so
11 demonized some of the people in Scientology, like Mr. Moxon
12 and Mr. Rinder, that it's really hard for us to imagine that
13 these are normal human beings who think and laugh and have
14 fun and tell jokes and can sit around and talk about things
15 that we've both done to each other without recriminations as
16 a result of it.
17 Q Well, you can speak for yourself but don't speak
18 for me. Okay?
19 Now, Mr. Minton, before we go off of March 28th, I
20 want to make sure ?? I want to make sure, because until I
21 asked you the question and used that magic word "dismissal,"
22 you didn't remember the word "dismissal" coming out of
23 Mr. Rinder's mouth on March 28.
24 My question was did anybody say anything, when
25 Mr. Rinder said, "If you set the record straight in Florida,
1395
1 the Lisa McPherson case will be dismissed"?
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think, your Honor, I object to
3 the form of the question, particularly Mr. Dandar's
4 comments about him never saying "dismissal," because
5 I believe that was discussed in direct some, you
6 know, however many days ago.
7 THE COURT: Good Lord, I wouldn't know if it
8 was or not.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. So I object
10 to the form, if he could just ask it without ??
11 THE COURT: Right. That is sustained.
12 MR. WEINBERG: ?? without all of the ?? you
13 know.
14 THE COURT: Yes. Just like, Mr. Dandar, you
15 didn't remember that he already said it was the
16 afternoon.
17 MR. DANDAR: Right.
18 THE COURT: Some of us may not have a clue what
19 this witness said in direct. I often thought maybe
20 we could get done if we just stay at it three days
21 without a break. It seems like whenever there is a
22 break, a whole bunch more exhibits come. And do you
23 know how many times we've gotten to this first
24 conversation with you?
25 MR. DANDAR: I know.
1396
1 THE COURT: At least three different times at
2 the end of the day. So I'll break and then we get
3 back to it, and it will be time for a break, then at
4 the end of the ?? if I didn't force you?all to stay
5 in here, like I did that one night, we would
6 probably still have Mr. Merrett on the stand.
7 MR. DANDAR: I would love for you to do that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: No.
9 THE COURT: Well, you know, I just can't
10 because I'm getting too old.
11 MR. DANDAR: Just so many depositions that have
12 been cancelled because of this, this is terrible.
13 THE COURT: You know, what you really need to
14 concentrate on and what you really need to worry
15 about is what is going on right here.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Minton, before we leave March 28th and 29th ??
19 A Yes?
20 Q ?? did you, Ms. Brooks or Mr. Jonas make any reply
21 at all when Mr. Rinder said, "If you set the record straight
22 in Florida, the case will be dismissed"?
23 A Yes. There was some reply after a break.
24 Q What was that ??
25 A After a break. Mmm, Mr. Jonas said that our
1397
1 position was that it was a case with merit.
2 THE COURT: "Case with merit" meaning not
3 Merrett, the lawyer ??
4 THE WITNESS: Right. That it was a case with
5 merit, as opposed to M?E?R?R?E?T?T.
6 THE COURT: All right. I got you.
7 A And that, you know, that we didn't see how that
8 could possibly result.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q And what was Mr. Rinder's reply?
11 THE COURT: Which case ?? obviously the only
12 case in which the Church of Scientology was a
13 defendant was the Lisa McPherson ??
14 THE WITNESS: The wrongful death case, yes.
15 THE COURT: So that is the case you are talking
16 about on that?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is right.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q What was Mr. Rinder's reply when Mr. Jonas said
20 the wrongful death case has merit?
21 A Mmm, he disagreed with it. I believe he said
22 that ?? you know, that Mr. Dandar knows better than anybody
23 the evidence in this case. And the evidence in this case
24 doesn't support the allegations.
25 Q And what was the reply to that comment by
1398
1 Mr. Rinder?
2 A No, that is what Mr. Rinder said.
3 Q I know. What was the reply to that comment?
4 A By Mr. Jonas?
5 Q Or whoever. You, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Jonas.
6 A Well, I don't think there was a reply to it. I
7 mean, you know, Mr. Jonas has no idea what you know. And he
8 wouldn't have been in a position ?? and Stacy and I were, by
9 and large, letting Mr. Jonas conduct those discussions.
10 Q As you left the meeting on the 28th and the
11 morning of the 29th, no one had ever talked about what
12 Mr. Rinder meant by the statement "set the record straight,"
13 correct?
14 A Well, "set the record straight" meaning to tell
15 the truth.
16 Q But no one knew what Mr. Rinder was ??
17 THE COURT: Well, did somebody say that, in
18 other words, I have heard this phrase, "Set the
19 record straight." Who said what that meant? Is
20 that somebody that said ??
21 A I think probably Mr. Rinder is the one who used
22 the word "truth," that, "All we're trying to get at in this
23 case is the truth." You know, so setting the record
24 straight, from his perspective, was the truth.
25
1399
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Was he talking about the LMT and destroying
3 documents?
4 A He didn't say ?? you know, he didn't lay out
5 any ?? one iota of specifics. It was very, very general.
6 Q He certainly wasn't talking about the documents
7 that the Church of Scientology destroyed, was he?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was back about six
11 questions ago.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It was argumentative. He said
13 he wasn't talking about the documents that the
14 Church destroyed.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Was he mentioning that?
18 MR. WEINBERG: It was just sustained.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Was Mr. Rinder mentioning any ?? the misconduct of
21 the Church of Scientology?
22 THE COURT: Well, I understand what his
23 objection is. He's ?? the reason he's objecting to
24 the form of that. That is kind of like "You beat
25 your wife?" You are putting the misconduct of the
1400
1 Church in that phrase, so, you know, if he mentioned
2 the misconduct, naturally Mr. Rinder didn't think
3 the Church committed any misconduct. So ??
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Did Mr. Rinder say that only you and Ms. Brooks
6 had to set the record straight in Florida?
7 A Mmm, yes. I think ?? I think so. I think that
8 was the implication. I don't know whether he actually just
9 used our names.
10 Q Okay. So he didn't identify anyone when he said
11 "set the record straight"?
12 A Well, he was talking to us, so we assumed it was
13 us; you know, that he wasn't talking to, you know, John
14 Merrett or Jesse Prince.
15 Q That is what I'm trying to get at. Mr. Rinder
16 wasn't saying ?? couching his words in phrases that led you
17 to believe that "setting the record straight" meant anyone
18 other than you and Ms. Brooks?
19 A Well, Ms. Brooks and I took it to mean other
20 people once we talked about it.
21 Q After you left Mr. Rinder?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q But nothing that he said to you caused you to
24 believe at that moment that he meant anyone other than you
25 and Ms. Brooks?
1401
1 A That is right.
2 Q Now, what exactly did Mr. Rinder say when he
3 called you an hour after you left the meeting on the morning
4 of March 29th?
5 A Well, I believe I already testified to that a few
6 minutes ago. But ??
7 THE COURT: Wait a second. I'm already
8 confused. Are we done with the 28th now? I ?? for
9 some reason, I thought the phone call occurred on
10 the 28th. That is not accurate?
11 THE WITNESS: No. It was the 29th.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 THE WITNESS: The morning.
14 THE COURT: When is it you and Ms. Brooks
15 decided to leave? On the 29th?
16 THE WITNESS: The morning of the 29th, yes.
17 THE COURT: When you are back on the 29th, that
18 is when you all leave, and it was after that
19 Mr. Rinder called ??
20 THE WITNESS: Right.
21 THE COURT: ?? said, "Even though it broke
22 down, we can still meet in Florida"?
23 THE WITNESS: No. No. He didn't say in
24 Florida. What he said was that, you know, "We're
25 sorry we couldn't make any progress on our talks,
1402
1 but we want you to understand the door is not closed
2 and if you want to talk again, we're willing to sit
3 down and talk."
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q There is absolutely nothing agreed to on the 28th
6 or the 29th ??
7 A No.
8 Q ?? except "We'll sit down and have further talks"?
9 A Well, there ?? yes, there were some things agreed
10 to, yes.
11 I told him, "Look, we already contacted ?? in that
12 hour since we came back, we have already contacted
13 Mr. Howie. We have already contacted Mr. McGowan. We'll be
14 going ahead with the contempt hearing in front of Judge
15 Schaeffer. We're going to be going ahead with the
16 deposition in front of Mr. Rosen and the contempt hearing in
17 front of Judge Baird," just to tell him that, you know,
18 "Look, okay, we're not going to get any concessions out of
19 you, fine, we're going to go ahead and do it."
20 Q So you were playing tough?
21 A No, not playing tough. That is just what we had
22 to do.
23 Q What did Mr. Rinder want you to do in reference to
24 the movie The Profit?
25 A He never discussed anything about it. It was just
1403
1 one of the things on his list.
2 Q Did he talk about what he thought the movie was
3 about?
4 A No. I said it was on his list. And there was no
5 discussion about it. The idea of ?? as far as I could see,
6 other than the litigation, you know, there wasn't any ?? you
7 know, the other things were so broad that, you know, these
8 things we can deal with later.
9 Q What litigation was ongoing, other than
10 Wollersheim and McPherson?
11 A Mmm ??
12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, asked and answered.
13 I think he already explained, at least as to the
14 European litigation, which he just explained.
15 THE COURT: Well, excluding that.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Is there anything else in the United States that
18 was ongoing except McPherson and Wollersheim?
19 A Let's see. The Ward case is still ongoing.
20 Q That is a case in bankruptcy, right?
21 A Well, there is the ?? well, not quite. But let me
22 just add another thing to the list on our side. I remember
23 another thing on the list.
24 And that was to find some way to ?? for the Church
25 of Scientology to work out a final agreement with Mr. Ward.
1404
1 Q That was one of your requests?
2 A Yes. I think that was. I'm pretty sure that was.
3 Q Okay. Anything else?
4 A You know, he's a good friend of mine and, you
5 know, he's got this stipulated judgment hanging over his
6 head. And I ?? you know, his wife and family ?? you know,
7 they have to pay $200 a month to the Church of Scientology
8 for the rest of their lives. And it's a lot of money to
9 them.
10 Q How much is the judgment?
11 A I think it's a $1 million ?? $3 million stipulated
12 judgment.
13 Q And this was because Mr. Ward posted something
14 that was copyrighted by Scientology on the Internet?
15 A Yes. I mean, this was one of ?? as Mr. Lieberman
16 was talking about, it is one of the overall copyright
17 infringement cases that RTC filed against a number of people
18 for posting their scriptures on the Internet.
19 But, sorry, back to Ward. Yes, there is still
20 ongoing matters relating to that case, and particularly that
21 stipulated judgment. And certainly at some stage when they
22 tried to ?? in fact, that RICO chart produced down here, you
23 know, the "Enterprise Chart" ??
24 Q Right?
25 A ?? this is part of what appeared to be an effort
1405
1 to, you know, collect on that judgment and then come after
2 me on it. That was, you know, back in early 2000 or late
3 '99. I can't remember when that chart was introduced in
4 federal court here.
5 Q Now, the courtesy copy of the Armstrong lawsuit ??
6 A Preview copy.
7 Q What?
8 A I think it was called a preview copy.
9 Q Oh, the preview copy that Mr. Rinder or ?? was it
10 Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen was so generous in allowing you to
11 look at that on March 28?
12 A Mr. Jonas looked at it. Stacy and I didn't look
13 at it.
14 Q Who handed it to Mr. Jonas?
15 A It was a wide table, and Mr. Rosen threw it across
16 the table.
17 Q Okay. That suit was also against you for ?? and
18 damages claimed being somewhere around a hundred million
19 dollars?
20 A No, I think $10,050,000.
21 Q Did you hear Ms. Brooks testify here a week or so
22 ago saying it was a hundred million?
23 A No. I just multiplied $50,000 times 201
24 infringements or violations of the agreement, that comes up
25 to $10,050,000.
1406
1 Q And did they throw around any figures in reference
2 to RICO?
3 A No. The only RICO?related figure is how much they
4 spent on a potential RICO case.
5 Q Did they tell you they get to treble the damages
6 under RICO?
7 A No, they didn't say anything other than what I
8 just told you.
9 Q All right. And when you left there on the 29th of
10 March, or 28th of March, either day ?? I don't want to get
11 stuck asking you the wrong question.
12 A On the 29th.
13 Q Well, each day, did you leave there with any
14 documents in your hand?
15 A No documents, other than Mr. Jonas' notes.
16 Q Okay. So now you called me up on the night of
17 Good Friday, right?
18 A Right.
19 THE COURT: Is this the same call we've been
20 over a thousand times?
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, I want to introduce a letter
22 that hasn't been introduced yet.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. FUGATE: Are we near a comfort break?
25 THE COURT: My reputation is going to hell in a
1407
1 handbag. Everybody says I crack the whip, and I'm
2 wondering what in the world I'm doing. I'm sort of
3 wondering if we have to hear the same thing over and
4 over.
5 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to ask him about
6 blood and death.
7 THE COURT: Good.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Does this have an exhibit
9 number?
10 MR. DANDAR: What is the number?
11 THE CLERK: 76.
12 THE COURT: Maybe, however, my demeanor ratings
13 will go up in the next poll. Pass the word.
14 MR. FUGATE: I'll vote for you.
15 THE COURT: Pass the word my demeanor has been
16 exemplary, under very trying times, I might add.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q I'll show you the clerk's copy of Exhibit 76.
19 THE COURT: Nobody would believe it if you said
20 it.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Do you recognize this as a letter I sent to you on
23 March 30, 2002, Mr. Minton?
24 A I recognize it for a lot of things.
25 Q Well, just my question is, is this a copy of the
1408
1 letter I sent to you on March 30, 2002?
2 THE COURT: Is this an E?Mail thing,
3 Mr. Dandar?
4 MR. DANDAR: I think it is. Yes.
5 THE COURT: I looked at the back and that is
6 why I wondered. When I see Mr. Minton's E?Mails,
7 all of the stuff is on the top. This doesn't look
8 like a letter that a lawyer sends out on letterhead,
9 so I assume ??
10 MR. DANDAR: It is an E?Mail. You are right,
11 Judge.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe it isn't, but I
13 just ??
14 MR. DANDAR: No, actually that should not even
15 be attached to this. That is something else. That
16 is April 25th, 2002. So ??
17 THE WITNESS: Well, no, Mr. Dandar, that is ??
18 that is just the date you decrypted something,
19 April 25th, 2002.
20 THE COURT: Well, get this straight. I have to
21 take a break. It is three o'clock. My court
22 reporter, I'm sure, is going crazy.
23 You know, under my contract, and I drew that
24 contract with the court reporters, I'm required to
25 give them a 15?minute break every hour and a half.
1409
1 So you wonder why I check, I try to honor that
2 agreement.
3 All right, we're in recess for 20 minutes, so
4 3:15, now this time by the courtroom clock.
5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.)
6 _______________________________________
7 THE COURT: You may be seated.
8 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: Yes?
10 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court and
11 counsel, if I may interrupt for a moment.
12 Last week I asked Mark Bunker to send down the
13 remaining videotapes that had been removed from the
14 Lisa McPherson Trust.
15 And they have arrived, and I just wanted to
16 tender them to the Court. Eventually, I guess,
17 they'll find a way over to Mr. Keane's office. But
18 given that the other ones were given to you, I
19 thought we would get them here as quick as we could.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. McGOWAN: So these are ?? just for the
22 record, this is an Express Mail package. It is
23 under seal. It has not been opened. It is
24 addressed to me, Thomas McGowan, from Mark Bunker,
25 and it's 19 Fairway Drive, Number 4, Daring, New
1410
1 Hampshire, looks like 03038.
2 THE COURT: I have a wonderful idea. What I
3 did with the others, I just signed across the tape.
4 Why don't we have one person from each side sign
5 across the tape, and why don't I then let you take
6 them to Mr. Keane's office.
7 MR. McGOWAN: I would be happy to, your Honor.
8 MR. MOXON: Fine. Your Honor, could he grab
9 the other ones inside of your office and take those,
10 too?
11 THE COURT: Mr. Keane already has those.
12 MR. MOXON: Great.
13 THE COURT: He came by Friday after he was
14 waiting for his verdict and I turned them over to
15 him, and I was happy to see them gone. So he has
16 them.
17 MR. MOXON: Thank you.
18 MR. McGOWAN: I'll take them over there.
19 THE COURT: I need to put my initials on them.
20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, while we are doing
21 miscellaneous matters, I have the signed
22 declarations of Stacy Brooks that she was unable to
23 identify.
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. DANDAR: And Mr. McGowan is leaving. I
1411
1 would like to hand them to him so he can have
2 Ms. Brooks look at them. And let me just announce
3 what I'm handing him.
4 February 3, '94.
5 March 3, '94.
6 March 22, '94.
7 March 13, ' 94 ?? or March 13, '97. Excuse me.
8 And the undated ?? or the one that has no
9 caption on it which is dated October 14, '94.
10 And I'm going to file this with the clerk, and
11 ask the record to reflect that we're substituting
12 the unsigned ones with the signed ones.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Before we do that, I suppose
14 Ms. Brooks ought to look at those and make sure that
15 is her signature. I think what she testified to is
16 she wouldn't be able to say for sure if they were
17 hers unless she saw them because they had come off
18 an Internet ??
19 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
20 THE COURT: So these, I take it, are the actual
21 declarations. So if she wants to look at them, I
22 would assume that is what she wanted to make sure.
23 And then ?? then what we'll do is any one that is in
24 evidence that is off the Internet will actually come
25 out and those will be substituted, and that is
1412
1 assuming that she recognizes that those are her
2 signature.
3 MR. McGOWAN: Would you like me to just prepare
4 like an affidavit authenticating or ??
5 THE COURT: That would be great.
6 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. If she doesn't want to get
7 up for just that purpose, if you'll just prepare an
8 affidavit stating that ?? that her testimony
9 regarding the ones that were posted off the Internet
10 stating that she couldn't be certain because she
11 didn't see the signed ones, and she did see the
12 signed ones now, and those are her affidavit.
13 MR. McGOWAN: Very good.
14 THE COURT: And I think the idea was if there
15 is anything in there that was false, she was to let
16 us know. So we need to know that, too. I mean, I
17 think the idea was she didn't think ?? clearly she
18 didn't think there was anything that was false, but
19 she was going to look them over and let us know. So
20 I don't know if she had a chance to look over the
21 old ones or whether she never did look at them.
22 MR. McGOWAN: She has been looking at these and
23 others, and we're in the process of doing that,
24 anyway, of doing the authentication. And if there
25 is anything ??
1413
1 THE COURT: An affidavit will be fine then,
2 unless somebody needs to have her testify again. I
3 don't think that would be necessary.
4 MR. McGOWAN: Great.
5 MR. DANDAR: It depends on how she phrases the
6 affidavit, I guess.
7 THE COURT: Well, yes.
8 MR. McGOWAN: Well, in the interest of economy,
9 at least these affidavits, I'll have her look at
10 them and just a quick ?? but if there is an
11 explanation we can always do that later.
12 THE COURT: I think what she said, if she
13 submitted any false affidavits ?? she said she
14 didn't think so ??
15 MR. McGOWAN: Right.
16 THE COURT: ?? but she needs to say if there
17 are any ?? if there are any false statements in
18 there, what they are.
19 MR. McGOWAN: Correct.
20 THE COURT: To be honest, I don't think anyone
21 would be interested in her explanation in an
22 affidavit form. I think if she has false statements
23 in there, she'll probably have to testify.
24 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: I mean, if she does, she can make
1414
1 an explanation. But what I'm going to guess is the
2 lawyer will say, "I want to cross?examine her about
3 it."
4 MR. McGOWAN: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Okay? Great.
6 MR. McGOWAN: Good. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Continue.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q I had you look at Plaintiff's Exhibit 76, which is
11 my March 30 letter of 2002 to you, Mr. Minton, which I
12 believe was sent to you by E?Mail.
13 Do you recall getting that?
14 A Yes, I did, sometime late afternoon or early
15 evening.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay, I would like to ??
17 A Of that day.
18 MR. DANDAR: I would like to move that into
19 evidence.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. WEINBERG: I have a question as to ?? can
22 we tell from this what E?Mail address or from what
23 E?Mail it came? And can we ??
24 THE WITNESS: Well, you can't tell from this,
25 you know, who it was sent to or who it was sent by.
1415
1 But, you know, I'm just taking Mr. Dandar's word.
2 THE COURT: Well, if Mr. Dandar will be a
3 witness, you indicated ??
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
5 THE COURT: ?? he's suggesting it is his, he's
6 going to testify it is his. Mr. Minton is just here
7 saying he got it.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It was a pitiful effort to voir
9 dire, but I was just trying to ??
10 THE COURT: I understand. I'll let it in
11 subject to ??
12 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't moving to keep it out.
13 THE COURT: I understand.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I was just trying to further it.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Minton, do you have any explanation in your
17 mind, in your understanding, of what Mr. Rinder meant when
18 he said, "If you set the record straight in the Lisa
19 McPherson case, the case will get dismissed," before you
20 left New York City?
21 A No.
22 Q And do you realize that I had a conversation with
23 your attorney, Mr. Jonas, also on the night of March 29th?
24 A Mmm, you may have.
25 Q Did I ask your permission to talk to Mr. Jonas
1416
1 when you called me on the night of March 29th?
2 A Mmm, I ?? I don't remember that. But you may
3 have. I just don't recall it.
4 Q And did you have Mr. Jonas call me on the night of
5 March 29th?
6 A I don't remember that, either.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay, Judge ??
8 A It's possible that Stacy Brooks did, but I don't
9 remember it.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right, let me ??
11 THE COURT: If she testified that is what
12 happened and Mr. Jonas said that is what happened,
13 you wouldn't dispute it?
14 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't doubt it. I just
15 don't recall doing it myself.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q All right. Let me hand up to you what has been
19 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 61. And I'll hand you,
20 Mr. Minton, the clerk's copy. And I don't know if this was
21 marked before.
22 MR. WEINBERG: It was.
23 MR. DANDAR: I hope not.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Wait. I didn't hand you the clerk's copy.
1417
1 THE COURT: This is in evidence already.
2 MR. FUGATE: I was going to ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is in evidence.
4 MR. FUGATE: ?? look and see.
5 THE COURT: It is. But the truth of the
6 matter, if he wants to put it in as another exhibit
7 in his case, it is all right.
8 But there will be no objection to this coming
9 in?
10 MR. FUGATE: There is no objection. But I want
11 to make sure, if we put it in, it carries both
12 numbers, at least for my purposes. I'll find it,
13 Judge.
14 THE COURT: All right. Continue on.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q In this letter ?? Mr. Jonas indicates he sent you
18 a copy of this. Did you get a copy of this April 1, 2002
19 letter?
20 A Yes. I have the ?? the first time you asked me
21 about this, I hadn't got it. But when I went back to New
22 Hampshire, I have gotten it since that time.
23 Q In that letter he says that Sandy Rosen and your
24 attorney agreed that they would never ask any questions in
25 any of the discovery concerning the meetings that you had on
1418
1 March 28 and 29th in New York City, is that right?
2 Basically, that is what this says?
3 A What ?? characterize that for me again.
4 Q The bottom ?? the last ?? next?to?the?last
5 paragraph where it says: "So, for example, Scientology
6 should not ask your client, and she should not testify,
7 concerning Friday's discussions or subsequent ones among
8 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, yourself and your client."
9 Is that your understanding of this letter?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. "And also Mr. Rosen ??" the second sentence
12 of the second paragraph "?? on behalf of Scientology,
13 agreeing that Scientology would never ask your client, in a
14 deposition, any questions concerning efforts by Mr. Minton
15 or Ms. Brooks to settle the Florida action after last
16 Thursday."
17 Is that your understanding of the discussion in
18 this letter?
19 A Well, let me explain what this letter is all
20 about.
21 At some point during the discussions it came up
22 from me that I couldn't sit down and talk with Dell
23 Liebreich unless the Church of Scientology agreed not to
24 talk to her about it or depose her about it, because you had
25 indicated to me how concerned Dell was about any
1419
1 conversations with me.
2 So when we talked about this, you know, I said,
3 "Look, I don't have any intention of talking to Dell
4 Liebreich unless you're going to leave her alone."
5 Q Anything else?
6 A And so we left ?? we left the meeting on the
7 second day because we ?? you know, we left. And because we
8 had discussed the possibility ?? you, of setting up this
9 meeting with Dell Liebreich, Steve Jonas went ahead and
10 wrote this letter to you, confirming that this was, in fact,
11 what was agreed to.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, let me ?? I'm going to hand
13 the witness another letter which has already been
14 marked as a plaintiff's exhibit, and I had it
15 remarked as another exhibit so I apologize for that.
16 But it is an exhibit previously marked as Exhibit
17 Number ?? Plaintiff's Exhibit 13. It's the
18 April 10, 2002 letter from Mr. ?? or from me to
19 Mr. Jonas. And ??
20 MR. WEINBERG: What number?
21 MR. DANDAR: It is Number 62, so it's in there
22 several times.
23 THE COURT: Your Number 52?
24 MR. DANDAR: 62.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I have a question. We have
1420
1 already marked it as Plaintiff's 13. Why would you
2 mark it as Plaintiff's 62?
3 MR. DANDAR: I didn't realize it until I had it
4 marked during the break.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Couldn't we just stipulate you
6 are showing him Plaintiff's Exhibit 13?
7 THE COURT: Sure. You mean it is already in as
8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 13 and Defendant's something
9 else?
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
11 THE COURT: It is going to be 13 then.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It is crazy to mark it again.
13 THE COURT: Madam clerk, whatever you just got,
14 the letter on Dandar & Dandar letterhead dated
15 April 10, 2002, do you show that as Plaintiff's
16 Exhibit 13?
17 THE CLERK: I'm checking, Judge.
18 Yes, I do.
19 THE COURT: Then that is what this is,
20 Plaintiff's 13.
21 MR. DANDAR: All right. So there will not be a
22 62.
23 THE COURT: Well, there may be, but this won't
24 be it.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right. All right.
1421
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you get a copy of this letter that I wrote to
3 your attorney, Mr. Jonas?
4 A I saw his reply to this, and then later I saw
5 this. Yes.
6 Q Okay. And his reply is dated the next day.
7 Correct?
8 A Right.
9 Q And that is April 11, which is marked again as 63
10 which we withdraw because we're going to look at what has
11 already been marked as Exhibit Number 12.
12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think I misspoke. When
13 he said the Jonas letter, I thought a moment ago
14 that he was talking about this letter, Number 12.
15 And I don't ?? I hadn't seen the April 1 one.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUGATE: So there isn't one, as far as I
18 know, on our side of the equation, just to clear up
19 the record.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Do I have a copy of this
21 letter you just gave him?
22 MR. DANDAR: You do have a copy. Would you
23 like another copy?
24 THE COURT: Not necessarily but ?? it is
25 probably in this stack somewhere.
1422
1 MR. WEINBERG: It was Plaintiff's 12.
2 MR. FUGATE: 12.
3 MR. DANDAR: That is why I was doing it this
4 way. But ??
5 THE COURT: Well, if you need it, I'll find it.
6 Or ?? go ahead, you keep it, I'll find it in here.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, in this letter, Mr. Minton ??
10 A Which letter?
11 Q The letter of April 11 from Mr. Jonas, your
12 attorney, to me ??
13 A Right.
14 Q ?? he says: "We did speak on March 29th, 2002 and
15 I did tell you that Scientology had made certain demands, I
16 did not mention threats, toward Mr. Minton. One of them was
17 their request that Mr. Minton bring about a dismissal of the
18 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case."
19 Is that a true statement by your attorney?
20 A It's not quite true. I mean, it's true, but he
21 doesn't ?? as he says in the next sentence, "I did not offer
22 to go into any detail about the discussions."
23 Yes, it's true in the sense that was purely part
24 of the discussion based on setting the record straight.
25 Q And so do you have any explanation as to why your
1423
1 lawyer, who at least goes forward and says that Scientology
2 wants you to dismiss the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case,
3 did not put in it would happen that Mr. Minton sets the
4 record straight?
5 MR. HOWIE: Objection as to any privileged
6 communications between Mr. Minton and Mr. Jonas.
7 THE COURT: I think that is waived. I mean, I
8 don't know that he can answer that. But I don't ??
9 I don't think he can. I don't think he can answer
10 what his lawyer was thinking, in his mind, when he
11 wrote a letter.
12 A As I said, he goes on in the next sentence to say
13 he didn't offer you any details about the discussions
14 "between Mr. Minton and Scientology."
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q And isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that on Friday
17 night, March 29th, Saturday morning, March 30th, and April 1
18 when you and I had telephone conversations, you also did not
19 mention about "setting the record straight"?
20 A That is absolutely false, Mr. Dandar.
21 Q Why didn't you send me an E?Mail ??
22 A I don't know whether you are trying to suborn
23 perjury, but it is false and you know it.
24 THE COURT: It really isn't necessary and I
25 don't want this happening. You have got to answer
1424
1 the question. And that is not an explanation. That
2 is an accusation. And it doesn't need to be made
3 here.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: He's the one that asks the
6 questions.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Why didn't you send me an E?Mail correcting all of
10 these letters that I sent to you on the 30th and two that I
11 sent to your attorney?
12 A I'm not in the habit of correcting people who are
13 writing Watergate?style letters to start covering their own
14 rear ends.
15 Q Mr. Minton, how many times have you posted to
16 alt.religion.Scientology?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Would you believe a Google search turns up over
19 2,000 postings by you?
20 A That would be false. If I posted 200, at the
21 most, that would be it.
22 Q Did you tell Mr. Jonas, by the way, of our
23 telephone ?? the substance of our telephone calls on
24 March 29, March 30, April 1?
25 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Privilege.
1425
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 A Well, first of all, I don't think anybody said
3 anything about an April 1 conversation.
4 THE COURT: What can I tell you, Mr. Howie? I
5 don't think anybody cares about our little
6 discussion.
7 MR. HOWIE: I'm trying.
8 THE COURT: That was sustained. That means you
9 don't have to answer that because that ??
10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, your
11 Honor.
12 MR. DANDAR: I am just handing back the clerk,
13 for the record, Plaintiff's Exhibit 63, which is
14 really Plaintiff's Exhibit 12, the April 11 letter
15 from Mr. Jonas.
16 THE COURT: Boy, if you think I followed that,
17 I sure didn't. But ??
18 MR. DANDAR: I didn't want you to. I just want
19 the court reporter to follow it.
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm still back on
21 Plaintiff's 76.
22 THE COURT: I never even had that one.
23 MR. DANDAR: Do you have that now?
24 THE COURT: I have not found it now. I know
25 you say it's in my stack here, and I'm sure I will.
1426
1 MR. DANDAR: I'm not sure you have this one. I
2 thought I handed you this, Judge, the March 30
3 letter from me to Bob Minton.
4 THE COURT: That I have.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
6 THE COURT: What I didn't have is the one you
7 were just referring to which would have been 63 but
8 it isn't.
9 MR. DANDAR: It's really Plaintiff's Exhibit 12
10 and I do have an extra copy.
11 THE COURT: Good. Why don't you give me that
12 and then I'll have these in order again.
13 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
14 THE COURT: Thank you.
15 MR. FUGATE: Do you have 76?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I have it right here.
17 MR. DANDAR: I just have one copy. Sorry.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did you have any conversations with anyone from
20 Scientology on Saturday, March 30th?
21 MR. WEINBERG: March what? I'm sorry.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q March 30th?
24 A No.
25 Q Sunday, which I think is the 31st of March, Easter
1427
1 Sunday?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. You called me up on April 1st?
4 A Mmm, was that ?? maybe that is true. On Monday?
5 Yes, because you were supposed to tell me about the 250,000
6 and where it was.
7 Q And you reiterated your demand that you made
8 Saturday to return the last check of $250,000. Correct?
9 A No. What I ?? what I called to inquire about is
10 why you hadn't called me back to say how much money you had
11 left. And you said that Donna told you that you'd spent it
12 all.
13 Q And that was in our conversation of April 1st?
14 A I believe it was.
15 Q And ??
16 A I think it was before you left for your heart
17 check?up.
18 Q Okay. And you recall Stacy Brooks calling me from
19 your home on Wednesday, April 3rd?
20 A I don't.
21 Q Did she tell you that she called me to let me know
22 that everything was okay, not to worry, and let's get
23 together when you and she came to Florida for Judge
24 Schaeffer's hearing?
25 A No. I'm not aware of that.
1428
1 Q Did she tell you that I recommended to her, at her
2 request, some hotels to stay at?
3 A No.
4 Q And since that time of April 1st, you and I
5 haven't talked to each other, have we?
6 A Mmm ??
7 THE COURT: Excluding court.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, excluding court.
9 THE COURT: You have been talking for days.
10 A I don't recall any discussions.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Except when you came to Judge Schaeffer's
13 courtroom on the afternoon of April 5th, I got off the
14 elevator and saw you and Stacy Brooks in the hallway here
15 and said hello to you and shook your hand.
16 A I don't remember it.
17 Q Okay. Now, you ?? you went and had a meeting with
18 representatives of the Church of Scientology on Saturday,
19 April 6, is that right?
20 A That is correct.
21 Q Did you meet with them in ?? did you meet with
22 them at all that week ??
23 A No.
24 Q ?? from April 1st to the 6th?
25 A No. I called Mr. Rinder on either the Tuesday or
1429
1 the Wednesday ?? I think it was the Tuesday ?? of that week.
2 Q What for?
3 A Excuse me?
4 Q Why?
5 A To suggest that we try to meet up in Florida.
6 Q And did you call him in LA, or here?
7 A He was in LA.
8 Q All right. Did you tell your attorneys that you
9 did that?
10 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Privilege.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q And what date ?? who suggested a date and place?
14 A There wasn't ?? well, first of all, there was some
15 question on Mr. Rinder's part whether he was going to even
16 be here.
17 And I think he called back, either later that day
18 or the next day, to say that he could be here and we could
19 meet Saturday.
20 Q And did you meet with anyone before Saturday?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Anyone from the Church? Is that
22 what you're asking?
23 MR. DANDAR: Right. Right.
24 A Mmm, no.
25
1430
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Okay. And did you talk to anyone else besides
3 Mr. Rinder that week before you went and met with someone on
4 Saturday?
5 A From Scientology?
6 Q Right.
7 A No.
8 Q Okay. What time ?? how did you know where to meet
9 anyone on Saturday?
10 A Well, as I said, I think the day after I called or
11 maybe later the same afternoon, Mr. Rinder told me we could
12 meet at Mr. Pope's office.
13 Q So Mr. Rinder telephoned you from Los Angeles?
14 A I believe he did.
15 Q Okay. And did he say what time to meet at
16 Mr. Pope's office on Saturday, the 6th of April?
17 A You know, I don't know whether a time was set
18 right then, or whether he contacted me when I was down here,
19 to give me a time.
20 Q Did Mr. Rinder have any knowledge at all whether
21 or not you had cleared any of this with your attorneys?
22 MR. HOWIE: Ob? ??
23 A It didn't come up.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. So what time did you meet in Mr. Pope's
1431
1 office on April 6th?
2 A Mmm, it was getting to be close to dinner time,
3 you know, like 5 o'clock or something like that.
4 Q And why so late?
5 A They set the time. I mean, you would have to ask
6 them.
7 Q Okay.
8 THE COURT: Who is "they"?
9 MR. HOWIE: The Church of Scientology.
10 THE COURT: But who is this? I mean ??
11 MR. HOWIE: Mr. Rinder.
12 THE COURT: Who was there on the 6th from the
13 Church? I probably should know but I have
14 forgotten.
15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rinder, Mrs. Yingling, Stacy
16 Brooks and myself.
17 THE COURT: Okay. And this is now in
18 Clearwater at Mr. Pope's office?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Do you know if your attorney or Stacy Brooks'
22 attorney knew that you were meeting with Mr. Rinder on
23 April 6th?
24 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Privileged as to the
25 question concerning Mr. Minton's attorney.
1432
1 THE COURT: I don't know that that really is
2 requesting any information. I think it's just
3 simply asking whether or not the lawyer knew.
4 MR. HOWIE: Well, to the extent it asks for a
5 privileged communication, we object.
6 THE COURT: You know what, I'll bet you any
7 amount of money if we went into it, Mr. Minton and
8 Ms. Brooks were probably chatting about this and
9 they probably waived the privilege.
10 But, in any event, I'm going to overrule your
11 objection.
12 A I'm sorry, what was the question again?
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Did your attorney know you were meeting with
15 Mr. Rinder on April 6 before you walked into the room?
16 A I believe so.
17 Q Which attorney?
18 A Mr. ??
19 MR. HOWIE: Same objection.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 A ?? Jonas.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Jonas?
24 A Mr. Jonas knew. And I believe Mr. Howie, he might
25 not have known about the 6th or the 7th or which day, but I
1433
1 think he knew that we were going to have a meeting with
2 them.
3 Q Well, let me ask you this. Why is it that you
4 went in for the very first time on April 6 to meet with
5 Mr. Rinder without your counsel or Ms. Brooks' counsel?
6 MR. HOWIE: Objection. Attorney?client
7 privilege.
8 THE COURT: Overruled. He's being asked why he
9 did something. Now, you don't have to discuss your
10 communications of this with your lawyer. But he can
11 certainly ask why he did any course of action.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Go ahead.
14 A Mmm, because that seemed like the sensible thing
15 to do. You know, we talked with Mr. Rinder before, didn't
16 have any reason not to talk to him.
17 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, the deal here is that
18 for Mr. Dandar perhaps, certainly for this Court, I
19 am used to, when people are sitting down to settle
20 anything and they have a lawyer, the lawyers go to
21 the meetings. It is very unusual that up to that
22 point the Church of Scientology was perceived by you
23 to be something less than a friend ??
24 THE WITNESS: Right.
25 THE COURT: ?? based on all of the Internet
1434
1 postings. Based on the fact you needed to sit down
2 with them and settle, and all of the above, it seems
3 odd that you and Ms. Brooks would go in to speak to
4 Mr. Rinder, who is head of the ??
5 THE WITNESS: Office of Special Affairs.
6 THE COURT: ?? Office of Special Affairs, and
7 Ms. Yingling, who as far as I know is not involved
8 in this case or the case in Clearwater but is a tax
9 lawyer, alone. So I think that is what Mr. Dandar
10 is asking.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, your Honor, I had
12 no ?? you know, I was a little bit concerned, but I
13 had no compunction about walking in there on my own.
14 THE COURT: Well, let's see if this helps you.
15 Was this at their request?
16 THE WITNESS: No. No, it wasn't. I'm the one
17 who called up to ask to meet with them.
18 THE COURT: So ?? so you did not say, "I'm
19 bringing my lawyer," or, "I'm not bringing my
20 lawyer;" it was just your decision to go there
21 without a lawyer?
22 THE WITNESS: That's right. Right.
23 THE COURT: And Ms. Brooks' decision to go
24 there without a lawyer?
25 THE WITNESS: That is right.
1435
1 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, there is an Exhibit
2 Number 75 which is a defense exhibit that
3 acknowledges that.
4 THE COURT: That is the one Mr. Howie signed?
5 MR. FUGATE: Right.
6 THE COURT: That is what I'm trying to get the
7 man to say. He doesn't seem to want to say it.
8 THE WITNESS: I thought it was already said,
9 your Honor.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did Ms. Brooks ??
12 THE WITNESS: You know, you asked me, I said I
13 thought Mr. Howie knew because he signed that letter
14 the day before, I believe, in Judge Schaeffer's
15 court.
16 And then, you know, Mr. Jonas was aware that we
17 were going to meet with them.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did Ms. Brooks' attorney, Mr. McGowan, sign the
20 letter? Let his client walk into a room to negotiate
21 without him being there or being ?? or knowing about it?
22 A Well, first of all, we weren't negotiating.
23 Q We'll get to that. What is the second? You said,
24 "First of all, we weren't negotiating." What were you
25 doing?
1436
1 A We were meeting.
2 Q And you were meeting to negotiate to see how you
3 could get out of the litigation business. Right?
4 A Well, you know, this was a little bit of a "feel
5 you out" type meeting. You know, we weren't negotiating
6 about settlement. You know, I wanted to talk.
7 You know, I didn't think that ?? I thought it was
8 a little precipitous, when we walked out of the meeting in
9 New York, and I let Mr. Rinder know, on the Tuesday
10 following, or ?? or the Wednesday, I'm not sure which dates,
11 that we wanted to meet in Clearwater.
12 Q Did Mr. McGowan ?? do you know if Mr. McGowan
13 signed off on any paperwork that acknowledged that he was
14 permitting his client, Ms. Brooks, to walk into a room,
15 unrepresented, with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling present?
16 A I'm not aware that he did or didn't.
17 Q All right.
18 A But I don't think he did.
19 Q All right.
20 THE COURT: If anybody can put their hands on
21 that letter that is signed by Mr. Howie, I would
22 like to know what date it was. I'm not sure it was
23 for the date of the 6th or this was some later
24 meeting ?? is that it?
25 MR. FUGATE: That is the ?? I didn't want to
1437
1 interfere with the examination, but that is the
2 letter.
3 THE COURT: All right. Okay, this is a letter
4 dated April 4th written to Mr. Howie ?? this is in
5 evidence ?? from Mr. Moxon, a lawyer in this case ??
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: ?? signed by Mr. Howie, consenting
8 that ?? that says what it says. But, in essence, it
9 says: "This will confirm that in connection with
10 Mr. Minton's request for settlement discussion with
11 representatives of the defendant Flag and of other
12 Church of Scientology entities, including attorneys,
13 you consent to said settlement discussions
14 proceeding with no attorney present for Mr. Minton,
15 provided that the confidentiality letter previously
16 executed regarding the settlement discussion held on
17 March 28 and 29, 2002 continues in full force and
18 effect."
19 Now, this is signed by Mr. Moxon, and this is
20 signed by your lawyer, Mr. Howie.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Howie. I remember that.
22 It was signed in your court on the 5th.
23 THE COURT: Now I'll have to go back to my
24 question.
25 This is pretty unusual, wouldn't you think? I
1438
1 mean, I'm looking at a letter where a lawyer is
2 letting you walk in ?? I hate to use this term ??
3 but the way that you'd referred to Mr. Rinder in the
4 past ??
5 THE WITNESS: Yes?
6 THE COURT: ?? on these Internet postings, you
7 almost referred to him as the devil himself.
8 THE WITNESS: Pretty close to it.
9 THE COURT: Pretty close. Certainly if I were
10 to say that your lawyer was signing off allowing you
11 to go into the lion's den, you might understand why
12 I am saying that based on your postings.
13 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Well, why did it happen?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, you know, we
16 talked with Mr. Rinder in New York. Stacy and I
17 were the ones who settled this FACTNet litigation
18 with Mr. Rinder, you know. I didn't have ?? well, I
19 had some trepidations about going in there, but by
20 and large, you know, I never had a problem with it.
21 I mean, it just ?? it just ?? you know, it just ??
22 it never ?? I mean, even Mr. Jonas, you know, he
23 didn't have a problem with it. He did have a
24 problem later, though.
25 THE COURT: Wasn't it a requirement that you
1439
1 negotiate without your Florida lawyer?
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. No one ever
3 mentioned that.
4 THE COURT: So why in the world was the letter
5 written and made Mr. Howie sign it, do you think?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe the Church of
7 Scientology wanted to make sure that everything was
8 okay if I was coming to meet with them on my own.
9 That is what I believe.
10 THE COURT: How would they even know that,
11 Mr. Minton, if you had not had a discussion with
12 them about it?
13 THE WITNESS: Because Mr. Howie had ?? I was
14 sitting at the table with Mr. Howie when Mr. Moxon
15 brought the letter to him.
16 THE COURT: If you just decided to walk in on
17 your own, how would they ?? how would Mr. Moxon have
18 known to write a letter to get Mr. Howie's
19 permission to allow this?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, I think the person you have
21 to ask is not me. Mr. Moxon is here, you know. I
22 don't believe there is anything unusual about it,
23 from my perspective.
24 THE COURT: Well, trust me ?? trust me, it is
25 quite unusual.
1440
1 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, for example, I
2 mean, Mr. Jonas said, "Look, you know, you got
3 yourself in this mess all by yourself, maybe you can
4 get yourself out of it all by yourself."
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Mr. Jonas said that when?
7 A Mmm, sometime before that meeting.
8 Q Before you came to Florida?
9 A No. Once I was here.
10 Q You called him on the phone?
11 A Or he called me.
12 Q And you told him that someone suggested that you
13 go into this meeting without representation?
14 A No. I told him that I was planning to meet with
15 him.
16 Q And did you tell him you were planning to meet
17 with him without your attorney, Mr. Howie?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And Mr. Jonas told you, "Well, that is okay, go
20 ahead"?
21 A He did.
22 Q And this is after Mr. Jonas was in New York where
23 Mr. Rosen said you cost the Church of Scientology
24 $34 million?
25 A That is correct.
1441
1 Q "Go meet with them all by yourself"?
2 A You know, I wasn't afraid to go meet with them all
3 by myself, Mr. Dandar. And, you know, as improbable as that
4 may seem to everybody in this courtroom, I had absolutely no
5 concern about doing that.
6 Q What was your idea of going into this meeting at
7 5 o'clock on Saturday, April 6th, if you already knew there
8 was no way you could get the wrongful death case dismissed
9 because you weren't in charge of that case?
10 A As I said, the purpose of going to this meeting on
11 Saturday afternoon was to see where we stood.
12 Q Before you left New Hampshire ??
13 A You know, just let me ?? let me just get it out.
14 To see where we stood with Scientology at that stage. You
15 know, we wanted to continue these discussions. We were
16 already going ahead with these contempt hearings. The one
17 with Judge Schaeffer, you know, was on a technicality. You
18 know, that was ?? you know, was resolved in a way that was
19 favorable. You know, there was still a lot of concern about
20 facing all these other things going on here.
21 THE COURT: Well, what ?? they didn't know
22 about perjury, you already said that. They didn't
23 even know about the check. Somebody said how
24 surprised they were when you finally told them.
25 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
1442
1 THE COURT: So they didn't know about that. My
2 contempt hearing was over. You had already been
3 found in contempt of Judge Baird. There was nothing
4 they could do about that.
5 What was there to discuss?
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, Mmm, the ?? you know,
7 when I say ?? you know, this oversimplifies it and
8 I'll try to be more specific.
9 You know, all of the litigation that we were
10 involved in, all of the discovery that was going
11 against the LMT, going against me, going against
12 Stacy Brooks, all of this stuff was motivating me to
13 try to sit down and reach ?? you know, begin to have
14 a settlement discussion with Scientology.
15 THE COURT: I understand that. And I gather
16 I ?? I mean, I understand you were going to get
17 peace of mind out of this, according to you and
18 Ms. Brooks, no more harassment, no more harassment
19 of your wife and family. You were going to go about
20 your life, you were going to stay off their back,
21 you were not going to contribute any more.
22 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Right? Was that the "this for
24 that," they were going to leave you alone and you
25 weren't going to fund any litigation?
1443
1 THE WITNESS: Well, that was part of it. Yes.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then what else is
3 there? What else is the "this for that"?
4 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm not understanding what
5 you mean, your Honor. I'm sorry.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, just keep plowing
7 forward.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Mr. Minton, when is the first time ?? well, when
10 is the first time that Mr. Rinder said to you, "We know you
11 can't get the case dismissed, Dandar won't listen to you,"
12 so to speak, "So let's go after Dandar, just like Mr. Rinder
13 went after Graham Berry in 1994, suborning perjury." When
14 did that come out?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, move to strike.
16 Objection to the form.
17 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled.
18 A Nothing like that has ever been said by
19 Mr. Rinder.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q When did you throw up in the bushes at Wally
22 Pope's office?
23 A I didn't throw up. I was gagging a little bit.
24 Q All right. When did you gag?
25 THE COURT: Which day was that? I have
1444
1 forgotten.
2 THE WITNESS: That is Saturday, the 6th of
3 April.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q So this was ??
6 A You want me to finish answering?
7 Q What time of the day?
8 A Can I finish answering?
9 Q Oh, sure.
10 A Mmm, well, at some point, I don't know whether it
11 was 6:30 maybe, 6 or 6:30, only after an hour or hour and a
12 half, we took a dinner break. And we came back about
13 8 o'clock. Stacy and I had gone to our hotel, had dinner
14 and came back. And, Mmm, you know, we're standing out in
15 front of ?? well, I guess we'd gone back in already. And at
16 some stage I said, "Let's just step outside for a
17 cigarette."
18 And so Stacy and I went outside in front of
19 Mr. Pope's office there. And, you know, I began discussing
20 with Stacy that, "Look, you know, we're going to have to go
21 in there and tell them what has happened in this case. That
22 is the bottom line."
23 Q What time was this?
24 A I would say it was around 8 o'clock, 8:15,
25 something of that order. It was getting darkish. The
1445
1 lights ?? you know, the lights were on outside, you know.
2 So that is about the time.
3 And, you know, I ?? you know, I got sort of gaggy
4 about it. You know, I was not ?? I was not relishing the
5 prospect of turning around and walking in there and telling
6 Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling these three main areas that
7 Stacy and I had discussed.
8 Q Which were?
9 A Which were the additional moneys, the meeting to
10 add parties, and the secret agreement.
11 Q Anything else?
12 THE COURT: Those are the same ??
13 A No.
14 THE COURT: ?? three things we've been talking
15 about from the very beginning. The very first time
16 I heard counsel over here tell us the three things,
17 the same three things.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q I want to know what you talked about from
20 5 o'clock until when you broke for dinner, that hour and a
21 half or so.
22 A You know, it was, Mmm, just ?? there wasn't much
23 in the way of any substantial discussion there. It was we
24 walked in, you know ?? look, you know ?? we talked about the
25 contempt hearing the day before, you know, fine. You know,
1446
1 there wasn't ?? there wasn't anything of substance
2 discussed.
3 Now, you know, Mr. Rinder, before we went to
4 dinner, he said, "I really want you to think about ?? think
5 seriously about telling the truth in what has happened in
6 this case. And when we come back after dinner, let me know
7 what you want to do about it."
8 And so we came back ?? we came in, I was feeling a
9 little bit like going outside with Stacy just to get out for
10 a minute. And I said to Stacy, I said, "Look, Stacy, you
11 know, I don't think we have any choice. We're going to have
12 to tell him what is going on in this case."
13 Q What made you come to this conclusion you had no
14 choice? What did they say to you that caused you to believe
15 "we have no choice"?
16 A Because I was going to go to jail, Mr. Dandar.
17 Q With who?
18 A With ?? with the perjury and crap that had gone on
19 in this case, for God's sake. They didn't threaten me at
20 all.
21 THE COURT: Lower your voice.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. I'm
23 sorry.
24 THE COURT: Lower your voice.
25 Lower your voice, counsel.
1447
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q So they didn't threaten you, they didn't know you
3 committed perjury that you claim you committed, they didn't
4 know anything?
5 A That is right.
6 Q So you said, "Well, I guess I better just tell ??
7 just stand up and tell them I committed perjury, the things
8 they don't even know about?" In your mind, that is what you
9 thought?
10 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, do you know what I'm
11 going to suggest to you now? These arguments you
12 are trying to make to this witness you are going to
13 get absolutely nowhere with.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right.
15 THE COURT: You need to save them and make them
16 to me.
17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Judge, at this time ?? and
18 this is going to be as quick as I can go, a little
19 burdensome but as quick as I can go ?? I'm going to
20 hand the witness all of the orders and motions from
21 the breach case, 2750.
22 THE COURT: Now, Mr. Minton, I want to be sure
23 I understand this. Adding Mr. Miscavige, this
24 secret meeting, they didn't know about that, did
25 they?
1448
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 THE COURT: They didn't know anything about the
3 extra $500,000, according to you?
4 THE WITNESS: Right. That is correct, they
5 didn't.
6 THE COURT: And the secret agreement, they
7 didn't know anything about the secret agreement?
8 THE WITNESS: Well, they ?? they knew something
9 about that.
10 THE COURT: They knew that there had been some
11 testimony in the depositions that there might have
12 been an agreement?
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: They knew there had been affidavits
15 filed saying there was no agreement?
16 THE WITNESS: Right.
17 THE COURT: So they didn't know if there was or
18 wasn't?
19 THE WITNESS: Right.
20 THE COURT: And certainly the lawyers for the
21 Church would have told them that whatever the
22 agreement was, it was fairly tenuous, not to be
23 enforced in any court of law that I know of.
24 So whatever it is they knew, that is ?? that is
25 what they knew based on the deposition testimony and
1449
1 the affidavits. Right?
2 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor.
3 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, Judge. At some point
4 I'm going to remember to bring my jury instructions
5 in with the agreement in conspiracy, to get back
6 updated, because I disagree with what you said.
7 THE COURT: You know, you?all disagree with it
8 all of the time. And I can hardly wait for
9 Mr. Minton to try to enforce that in a court in
10 Florida. And then we'll find out.
11 MR. FUGATE: I'm talking about my understanding
12 of what agreement is under the instruction, Judge.
13 THE COURT: You know what? The nice thing
14 about this is is that you're going to have a chance
15 to tell me what you think an agreement is when we
16 get into argument. Mr. Dandar will have a chance to
17 tell me what he thinks an agreement is. And then
18 I'm going to tell you?all what an agreement is.
19 MR. FUGATE: I somehow knew that thing might
20 happen.
21 THE COURT: All this money that I make, that is
22 what makes it all worthwhile. I will tell you what
23 an agreement is.
24 Now then, Mr. Minton, so your meeting, with
25 your lawyer's blessing, on the 6th, on this evening,
1450
1 to go in and tell this person that you have
2 described as one of the worst people that I can
3 imagine, one of your ?? certainly your enemy, right?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: And you're going to fess up to this
6 person, who has this lawyer present, perjury. And
7 what is it ??
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: What is it you are going to get for
10 that? How do you know they are not going to run
11 into the court the next day, tell me that you
12 committed perjury? How do you know they are not
13 going to call the State Attorney, tell him that you
14 committed perjury, and you are going to go to jail?
15 What is it that motivated you to go in and
16 confess to Mike Rinder and Ms. Yingling things they
17 didn't know that would, indeed, subject you to going
18 to jail? What caused you to do that?
19 THE WITNESS: Because I trusted them.
20 THE COURT: Oh.
21 THE WITNESS: You know, your Honor, Ms. Brooks
22 has consistently told me, based on ?? and also based
23 on my own experience in the FACTNet settlement, that
24 Mr. Rinder is a man of his word. And that if we
25 were to go about setting the record straight in
1451
1 these Florida cases, they would ?? they would really
2 actually go ahead, at some point in the future, and
3 sit down and discuss settlement with us.
4 You know, I had to trust that that was the way
5 it was going to work.
6 THE COURT: You didn't think it might be smart
7 to have a lawyer to negotiate that with them, where
8 you had not said anything and, consequently, nobody
9 could say you had said this or that?
10 THE WITNESS: Well, that ?? that is the matter
11 which caused some concern by ?? on my attorney's
12 part ??
13 THE COURT: Well, I would imagine it would.
14 THE WITNESS: ?? that I went in and told about
15 things that ?? that were ?? concerning this case
16 that I testified differently about.
17 THE COURT: Okay. But ?? but now that I know
18 the reason why you did this, went in and confessed
19 perjury to people you had perceived to be your
20 enemy, and all of the things you said about them,
21 now that I know, the reason why you did that was
22 because you trusted them?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, I believed, based on my
24 past experience. I believed on what ?? on what
25 Ms. Brooks had told me, that I could trust them.
1452
1 It wasn't something that I wanted to do, your
2 Honor. You know, I wasn't looking to start trusting
3 the Church of Scientology, and I especially wasn't
4 looking to trust Mike Rinder.
5 THE COURT: I'm just trying to understand, make
6 any sense, out of this at all, Mr. Minton. Thank
7 you.
8 Continue.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Mr. Minton, when you went to meet with the
11 attorney ?? or Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling on April 6th, you
12 had already successfully defeated Mr. Moxon's motion for
13 contempt before Judge Schaeffer. And I want you to look at
14 the exhibits that are in front of you from Judge Baird's
15 case, the 2750 case.
16 A Where are they?
17 Q Right there on the far ??
18 A This?
19 Q Yes. Just turn those over.
20 A Okay.
21 Q And just put those out of the way, or I'll take
22 them, the ones that have exhibit ?? or just leave them
23 there. Maybe we should put them in numerical order so they
24 make sense ?? more sense.
25 I have handed you ?? that is interesting, how did
1453
1 I get ?? all right, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74 and 75 marked by
2 the clerk. Take a look at those ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know you gave us 71.
4 MR. DANDAR: Well, just let me know what you
5 don't have because ??
6 MR. FUGATE: I'll tell you what we have here.
7 THE COURT: I don't have a 75.
8 MR. DANDAR: You don't have a 75?
9 MR. FUGATE: We have June 15, 2001, July 26,
10 2001, August 27, 2001 ??
11 MR. DANDAR: Can you go by exhibit numbers?
12 MR. FUGATE: Well, I just put them in ?? I have
13 70, 69, 72 ??
14 THE COURT: This is all just making the record
15 huge. Go up and show him what you have, and I'm
16 going to let you show him and make sure we all have
17 the same thing.
18 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
19 THE COURT: You apparently need to start
20 reading these, in the meantime, is my guess.
21 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
22 THE COURT: Judge Baird does a lot of orders.
23 I'm keeping mine all to myself. I haven't done them
24 yet.
25 THE WITNESS: I should say ??
1454
1 THE COURT: Counsel, we have these things. Now
2 what is it you want this witness to do with them?
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Mr. Minton, what is your understanding as of
5 April 6th if you were in any jeopardy at all with Judge
6 Baird?
7 THE COURT: Well now, you know, in the first
8 place, you gave him a bunch of documents to read. I
9 don't know that these things really answer his
10 questions.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right.
12 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know that based
13 on ?? he's going to read these and figure out the
14 answer to that question. Are you asking him what he
15 thought, as of the 6th, what his situation was?
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So forget reading these. I
18 told you to read these. Don't read them.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 THE COURT: He's asking you what did you think
21 on April 6th, this being the day you went in and
22 told them about the perjury, what did you think your
23 situation was at that time with Judge Baird?
24 THE WITNESS: Just with Judge Baird?
25 THE COURT: That was his question, not mine.
1455
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Just with Judge Baird. Before you walked into
3 that room on April 6th, what did you think you faced with
4 Judge Baird?
5 A Mmm, the continuation of the contempt hearing.
6 Q Well, what was there contemptuous about what you
7 had done when you appeared for your deposition in October,
8 for two days, of 2001? What further contempt charges did
9 you think you faced before you walked in that room with
10 Mr. Rinder?
11 A I don't know. I mean, I ?? I don't know. I was
12 coming in for a contempt hearing ?? a continuation of the
13 contempt hearing.
14 Q And hadn't you complied with the prior order of
15 Judge Baird by appearing for your deposition for two days in
16 October?
17 A No. I hadn't answered those questions and I
18 hadn't provided documents. That is why I was coming back in
19 front of him.
20 Q Did you have an understanding that the documents
21 not in your possession could not subject you to contempt?
22 A I hadn't ?? you know, I had no such
23 understanding ?? I mean, the documents I was able to get a
24 hold of.
25 Q Did you have ?? well, did you refuse to produce
1456
1 those documents in October?
2 A You know, I don't remember what the situation with
3 regards to the documents were in October. But most of the
4 documents that I got, I got out of Stacy Brooks.
5 Q And did you have an understanding that by pleading
6 the Fifth Amendment to the questions you pled those to in
7 October of 2001 would, nevertheless, lead you to be in
8 contempt of court with Judge Baird?
9 A You know, the ?? as far as Judge Baird's court was
10 concerned, you know, all I know, that I was going in there
11 for continuation of this contempt hearing, which was the
12 sentencing phase.
13 THE COURT: Was that ?? was that ?? I know you
14 went in there on the 9th, I believe it was.
15 THE WITNESS: That's right.
16 THE COURT: Was that already a prescheduled
17 date? That was the date for your ??
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: ?? continuation of the contempt
20 hearing?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, all of the orders, as I am
23 scanning them real quickly, all refer to a subpoena
24 duces tecum.
25 THE COURT: We don't need to read those orders.
1457
1 We are not talking about those orders with this
2 witness. This witness is simply being asked what he
3 believed.
4 MR. FUGATE: All ??
5 THE COURT: That is really what is important.
6 MR. DANDAR: It is.
7 THE COURT: I don't even really want to look
8 through these things. He can talk ??
9 MR. DANDAR: I just want them in evidence.
10 THE COURT: All those orders in that case are
11 in evidence. I think the Court can take notice of
12 those. But, in any event, they are in.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q When you walked in to see Mr. Rinder on April 6,
15 you had no understanding whatsoever that you faced a
16 possibility of sentencing for contempt based upon your ??
17 what you say is perjury in your prior October 2001 ??
18 THE COURT: Boy, I'm going to tell you before
19 the objection comes, I haven't a clue what you just
20 asked.
21 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Minton, are you ?? isn't it true ??
24 MR. DANDAR: I have no idea what I asked,
25 either.
1458
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Mr. Minton, isn't it true that when you walked in
3 there with Mr. Rinder, and before you sat down, you had ??
4 THE COURT: It's just way too long. "Before
5 you sat down," you see, you put that in there. He
6 can say no because he was still standing.
7 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Prior to April 6, did you have an understanding
10 that Judge Baird was going to sentence you for contempt?
11 THE COURT: You see what happened? That
12 happens ?? see what happens at four o'clock? It's
13 that ??
14 MR. WEINBERG: I know.
15 THE COURT: ?? it's getting late in the day.
16 Go ahead, sir, answer that question. If I
17 interrupted you, I'm sorry. I'll have the court
18 reporter read it back.
19 THE WITNESS: See if you could.
20 THE COURT: The last question Mr. Dandar asked.
21 THE REPORTER: "Question: Prior to April 6,
22 did you have an understanding that Judge Baird was
23 going to sentence you for contempt?"
24 A You know, I'd discussed the matter with my
25 counsel ??
1459
1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I would warn the client
2 of privilege.
3 MR. DANDAR: I was asking for his
4 understanding.
5 THE COURT: He had not asked for his
6 conversation.
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 THE COURT: This is a simple question. Did you
9 think, when you went in on the 6th, that Judge Baird
10 could put you in jail?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't think I did.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Did you think you faced any type of sanctions or
15 anything from Judge Baird prior to April 6th?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What?
18 A Well, monetary sanctions.
19 Q For what?
20 A For not having provided the documents and not
21 answered the questions in October.
22 Q The questions that you pled the Fifth Amendment
23 to?
24 A Right. Just like Judge Schaeffer overruled that.
25 Q Right, Judge Schaeffer overruled it. And on
1460
1 Friday, April 5, your attorney stood up and said to the
2 Judge, in your presence: "Judge, he's going to go to
3 deposition and he's going to answer all these questions."
4 And do you think that was going to put you in
5 jeopardy with Judge Schaeffer by answering the questions
6 truthfully?
7 A That had nothing to do with Judge Schaeffer. That
8 was Judge Baird.
9 Q Well, I'm switching back now to Judge Schaeffer.
10 I want to know what was in your mind before April 6th as to
11 what possible penalties Robert Minton faced with Judge
12 Schaeffer?
13 THE COURT: He already told you. He said, as
14 far as ?? as Judge Baird, money. Now you're asking
15 him as far as me?
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
17 THE COURT: All right. What did you think
18 about any penalty you faced in front of me?
19 THE WITNESS: You mean in connection with that
20 contempt hearing?
21 THE COURT: I guess.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Yes, on the 5th, that you won.
24 A You know, I didn't win it, Mr. Dandar. I was
25 lucky to escape by the skin of my teeth.
1461
1 Q Because of the brilliance of Mr. Howie, you were
2 acquitted.
3 A Yes.
4 Q That is a win, isn't it?
5 A Whatever you want to call it. I was pretty
6 uncomfortable, sitting at that table over there.
7 Q And you agreed with Mr. Howie, when we stood up
8 and told Judge Schaeffer, you were going to go to a
9 deposition in this case and you were going to answer all of
10 the questions that she overruled your Fifth Amendment to
11 truthfully. Did that cause you problems?
12 A I ?? I don't recall him saying that. But, no,
13 that didn't cause my any particular problems at that stage.
14 Q So the problem you had then before April 6 is
15 thinking about "I'm going on Tuesday morning before Judge
16 Baird for a contempt hearing and I'm worried that he's going
17 to fine me because I didn't produce documents that I should
18 have produced in October"?
19 A Look, Mr. Dandar, the ?? the number of lies that
20 have been told in this case ?? this case, was of a
21 consequential enough nature that based on what my
22 discussions with my attorneys have been in terms of setting
23 any part of any record straight was enough to hang me. I
24 don't mean literally, but in terms of going to jail. You
25 know, this was ?? this was the overriding concern of all of
1462
1 this, the discovery requests, you know, every conceivable
2 aspect of my life, Stacy Brooks' life, the LMT life, all of
3 this, you know, the ?? being added as defendants in these
4 cases where additional liabilities were going to occur for
5 me, for LMT, for Stacy Brooks, whether it is one big ball of
6 wax or not, the liability was going to fall on me.
7 Q What did Mr. Rinder tell you in that hour and a
8 half before dinner on April 6?
9 THE COURT: I believe he already asked and
10 answered that and said not much.
11 A Yes.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q All right. So Mr. Rinder, did he talk about the
14 seven areas again?
15 A No.
16 Q Did he focus on one particular thing?
17 A No.
18 Q Did he talk about the Lisa McPherson case?
19 THE COURT: You know, I just really hate for
20 this to be 20 questions again. I think that maybe
21 we'll get the best we can get, at least as far as
22 what this witness is going to say, by saying, "Could
23 you tell us everything you can remember that
24 Mr. Rinder said at that meeting."
25 MR. DANDAR: I adopt that question.
1463
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Can you answer that question?
3 MR. WEINBERG: You're talking about before ??
4 THE COURT: Before dinner.
5 MR. WEINBERG: ?? dinner?
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Go ahead.
9 A Well, as I started to testify about a little while
10 ago, before I was either interrupted or whatever, we talked
11 about the contempt hearing in front of Judge Schaeffer, you
12 know, and that this was a close call and it was very
13 uncomfortable. And, you know, then we talked generalities.
14 I mean, we never really talked to Monique Yingling
15 before. You know, it ?? you know, up until dinner time ?? I
16 mean ?? I mean, before dinner, there really wasn't much
17 talked about.
18 But Mr. Rinder ?? I remember, before we went to
19 dinner, you know, he said, "I really want you to think
20 seriously about sitting down and telling us what has gone on
21 in this case in terms of setting the record straight."
22 And we came back from dinner, we sat back down,
23 and then we almost got right back up and Stacy and I went
24 outside to talk some more. I was feeling queazy at my
25 stomach, which is one of the reasons I wanted to get back up
1464
1 and go back outside.
2 And Stacy and I discussed it. And as I described
3 it to you, "Stacy, I believe we don't have any choice but to
4 go back in there and tell them the truth about what has gone
5 on in this."
6 She said, "I think you're right."
7 And we went back in there and we sat down. And I
8 laid out ?? Stacy Brooks wasn't talking about this, she was
9 just listening ?? and I laid out these three areas, you
10 know. They took notes. They asked questions, you know.
11 But mostly they were just taking notes and asking, you know,
12 a few questions.
13 I mean, they didn't know about this. They didn't
14 know about the money. And that was it.
15 Q And so did anyone suggest, "Well, thank you,
16 Mr. Minton. And tomorrow at your scheduled deposition on
17 Monday, Mr. Rosen is going to ask you questions about all
18 this perjury that you're so guilty of so we can set the
19 record straight"?
20 A No such question was ?? or no such comment was
21 given by anybody.
22 Q In fact, your alleged perjury didn't ?? didn't
23 even occur in the case before Judge Baird, did it?
24 A There were ?? I remember when Mr. Rosen questioned
25 me in that case, there were only two of those three areas he
1465
1 questioned me about. One area didn't have anything to do
2 with that case.
3 Q Did you ??
4 THE COURT: Which are the two out of the three
5 areas that he questioned you about? I don't think
6 it is fair to go back and read his deposition, if
7 you can, it was ??
8 A It was ??
9 THE COURT: ?? it was so offensive to me.
10 THE WITNESS: No, in the hearing before Judge
11 Baird.
12 THE COURT: He didn't add anything about adding
13 Miscavige as a party because that didn't have
14 anything to do about that, I take it.
15 THE WITNESS: No, I believe that, and the
16 additional moneys were what he questioned me about
17 on the witness stand in Judge Baird's case, I think.
18 THE COURT: I thought it was the agreement and
19 the moneys, but ??
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, because the case had to do
21 with the breach, which had to do with adding David
22 Miscavige.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q So you told Mr. Rinder, "Oh, I gave Mr. Dandar a
1466
1 $500,000 check in May of 2000 from the UBS bank that doesn't
2 have my name on it and it is not drawn on my account?" Is
3 that what you told Mr. Rinder?
4 A In essence, that is one of the things I told him.
5 Q Did you tell him it was a UBS bank check?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you tell him it came from your bank account at
8 another bank?
9 A I didn't tell him anything about that.
10 Q Did you tell him it was your money?
11 A I told him that I caused to be issued a check for
12 $500,000 payable to Ken Dandar issued by Union Bank of
13 Switzerland. That's it.
14 Q Did you hand him a copy of the check?
15 A I didn't.
16 Q Did you have a copy of the check?
17 A I did have a copy, but not with me at that time.
18 Q When is the first time you handed anyone from the
19 Church of Scientology a copy of that check?
20 A Mmm, I think that I got it on the Monday.
21 Q April 8th?
22 A I think that is when I got it.
23 Q So why didn't you produce it Monday?
24 A I wasn't asked to produce it.
25 Q Why didn't you produce it April 9th at your
1467
1 hearing with Judge Baird?
2 A I thought I did.
3 Q No, you didn't.
4 THE COURT: Well now, don't argue with this
5 witness.
6 MR. DANDAR: I won't.
7 A Oh, maybe it was the 19th. Maybe it was the 19th
8 that I produced it, because ?? I remember, I had to order ??
9 get a copy of the check.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q From your bank?
12 A Mmm, I had to get it from Union Bank of
13 Switzerland.
14 Q How did you go about getting a copy of the check
15 in a bank, UBS, that you have no account in?
16 A I contacted a financial institution and asked them
17 to contact Union Bank of Switzerland and get a copy of the
18 check.
19 Q Is that the financial institution which forwarded
20 the money to UBS Bank for that check?
21 A I'm going to plead the Fifth Amendment to that
22 question.
23 THE COURT: Ms. Yingling, I take it she had to
24 fly all of the way down from New York for this
25 casual meeting on the 6th, this afternoon meeting?
1468
1 THE WITNESS: She lives in Washington, I
2 believe.
3 THE COURT: Washington. So I gather
4 Mr. Rinder ?? you certainly didn't request her
5 presence, I don't imagine?
6 THE WITNESS: No.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So Mr. Rinder ??
8 THE WITNESS: He made those arrangements.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Did you wonder why she was
10 there?
11 THE WITNESS: Did I wonder?
12 THE COURT: Uh?huh. I mean, she wasn't
13 somebody you were used to dealing with. You knew
14 Mr. Moxon. You knew Mr. Fugate. You knew
15 Mr. Weinberg. You certainly knew Mr. Rosen.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't know any of them.
17 THE COURT: Well, you'd seen them?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'd seen them.
19 THE COURT: At your deposition?
20 THE WITNESS: I never sat down and talked with
21 them before.
22 THE COURT: Did you ever say, "Why is
23 Ms. Yingling here? I didn't think she was connected
24 with either of these cases as a lawyer."
25 THE WITNESS: Well, Ms. Brooks and I speculated
1469
1 but we didn't ask.
2 THE COURT: What did you speculate?
3 THE WITNESS: Because she's ?? from our
4 understanding, she's Mr. Miscavige's attorney.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Miscavige's attorney?
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q So Mr. Miscavige's attorney was present, trying to
8 negotiate or discuss with you terms of a global settlement
9 involving the Church of Scientology Flag Service
10 Organization, Inc. Is that right?
11 A A global settlement concerning what?
12 Q Flag, the defendant?
13 A The ??
14 MR. FUGATE: I object. That assumes facts not
15 in evidence.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 A You know ??
18 THE COURT: Global settlement, Mr. Dandar, I
19 even understand this, involved the whole smear.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q So Mr. ??
22 THE COURT: Right?
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q It involved all of the cases, right?
25 THE COURT: That is what global means.
1470
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Who is the first one that mentioned the
3 Wollersheim case?
4 A Mmm, Mr. Rosen.
5 Q Back in New York on the 28th?
6 A Right.
7 Q Did he tell you that you had to get the
8 Wollersheim case dismissed?
9 A Mmm, no.
10 Q Did he tell you that you and Ms. Brooks had to go
11 set the record straight in the Wollersheim case?
12 A Mmm, he said that to Ms. Brooks, I believe.
13 Q So she had to set the record straight?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q Did he tell her how to do that?
16 A No.
17 Q He just left it there, and ?? just like the
18 McPherson case, no one bothered to ask what he meant by
19 that?
20 A That is correct.
21 THE COURT: Did he tell you, just as he had in
22 the McPherson case, that he thought if you all set
23 the record straight, the case would be dismissed?
24 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't.
25 THE COURT: That was only said about the
1471
1 McPherson case?
2 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Was anything else discussed on April 6th?
6 A Mmm, other than those three areas, I don't think
7 so.
8 Q Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, that on April 6
9 Mr. Rinder or Ms. Yingling or somebody for the Church of
10 Scientology told you, "We know you can't get Dell to dismiss
11 the case so we're going to get you to go after Dandar"?
12 A That is not true.
13 Q Didn't you tell that to Jesse Prince?
14 A You know, any ?? if you are going to ??
15 THE COURT: The answer to that no?
16 A The answer to that is no.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q How late did you stay there at Mr. Pope's office?
19 A It wasn't late that night.
20 Q Isn't it true that you talked with Mr. Rinder or
21 Ms. Yingling or somebody from the Church of Scientology upon
22 the night of April 6th up to 1:30 a.m.?
23 A I don't think so. I don't think we were there
24 that late at all.
25 THE COURT: Well, how late was it?
1472
1 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, two or three hours
2 after dinner. So that would make it 11, 11:30 max.
3 THE COURT: Thank you.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Did you discuss anything else?
6 A No, that was it.
7 Q So after you gagged a little outside, you walked
8 in and said, "Okay, I committed perjury in the wrongful
9 death case depositions"?
10 A That is not what I said, Mr. Dandar.
11 Q How did you say it? "I forgot to tell you about
12 this check"?
13 A No. I said, "There are three main areas that I
14 need to talk to you about."
15 THE COURT: Now, the best thing for you to do
16 at this point is say what were they and step back
17 and let him say.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Okay, what were they?
20 THE COURT: He already told us that. I mean ??
21 MR. DANDAR: All right.
22 A So what did I say about the first area?
23 THE COURT: Thank you. You could be a lawyer.
24 All right.
25
1473
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Money, the meeting and secret agreement. Right?
3 A Right.
4 Q Okay.
5 THE COURT: What we want to know ?? I think
6 what counsel wants to know ??
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 THE COURT: ?? you ?? you went back in ?? and
9 decided with Ms. Brooks it was time to go in and lay
10 it out?
11 THE WITNESS: Lay it out.
12 THE COURT: Now, what he would like to know,
13 when you went in there, what did you say?
14 THE WITNESS: Okay, with respect to the
15 additional moneys, I told them about the $500,000
16 check and about the $250,000 check.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q So you said, "I caused ??"
19 THE COURT: Why don't you just stop and let him
20 tell us, then make a mental note or put it in
21 writing what you want to go back and ask him. Okay?
22 Please.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't think I said I caused
24 them to be issued.
25 THE COURT: Go ahead. Next.
1474
1 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't think I said
2 it. But it was clear to them whose money it was.
3 THE COURT: Go ahead. If there is something
4 you just can't stand, Mr. Dandar, why don't you ??
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q How? How?
7 A How what?
8 Q How did you know that they knew that it was your
9 money?
10 A Well, I told them that I ?? that I'm the one who
11 paid this money.
12 Q Okay.
13 A I didn't say from where or anything like that. I
14 just told them that I'm the one who did this.
15 Q And when you mentioned these two checks, did they
16 ask you, "And what about the anonymous donations to the
17 LMT?"
18 A We didn't touch on that subject, I don't think.
19 Q Okay.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, would it be possible
21 for Mr. Minton to at least explain what he said on
22 the first issue, which is the $500,000 and $250,000
23 check?
24 THE COURT: Was it both the $500,000 and
25 $250,000? Or just the $500,000?
1475
1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he said he told them about
2 both at the meeting.
3 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Dandar, this very moment
4 I'm going to ask you to just stand there and let him
5 say everything that he can remember that he said,
6 and I want to ask you to make notes and come back
7 and ask him.
8 But just once, I mean, we're going to, I think,
9 get through this meeting ??
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 THE COURT: ?? today.
12 THE WITNESS: Well, I explained to them the
13 whole circumstances surrounding the $500,000, Mmm,
14 the discussions with you about hiding this money
15 from the employees, how you would set up an account
16 somewhere to put it somewhere where Scientology
17 couldn't find out about it, that at the time this
18 was going to be enough money in Judge Moody's court
19 to take this thing to trial, how you were going to
20 cut back on the payments to the employees that ?? at
21 least the two that I remembered were mentioned by
22 name. Mmm, you know, everything I could remember
23 about it.
24 You know, then, you know, with regards to the
25 $250,000, we went through the whole ?? the meeting
1476
1 in New Hampshire, you know, the discussions about
2 this additional money ??
3 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to interrupt you
4 here, and I really hate to do it because you're
5 going so good here to get that out, but ??
6 THE WITNESS: That's okay.
7 THE COURT: ?? but I'm kind of curious as to
8 why, since you were concerned about the perjury and
9 setting the record straight, that you would talk
10 about moneys that had nothing to do with setting the
11 record straight or had nothing to do with perjury.
12 Is it ??
13 THE WITNESS: Well, the money I testified ??
14 THE COURT: Wait a second.
15 Is it because Mr. Rinder wanted to know how
16 much money you had given Mr. Dandar?
17 THE WITNESS: No. Mr. Rinder never asked me
18 anything about money ??
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: ?? until I brought this subject
21 up.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, during that, I did
24 mention, you know, the total amount that I'd given
25 to Mr. Dandar.
1477
1 But, I mean, they already knew that by
2 extrapolating, you know, from 1.3 plus $750,000 more
3 was $250,000, you know. I just reaffirmed that was
4 the total.
5 With regard to the $250,000, I explained what
6 happened to that.
7 I explained about this phone encryption device,
8 you know, everything that had to do with the
9 eventual issuance of that check for $250,000.
10 And, you know, that was on the night of April 6th.
11 So, I mean, that is not a short story.
12 THE COURT: Okay. That is it on the money?
13 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think that is.
14 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar is being real good.
15 He's obeying me. So I'm going to help him out here.
16 Is that it, the end for the money?
17 THE WITNESS: That is pretty much.
18 THE COURT: Number two, what is next, the
19 agreement?
20 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember which is
21 the second ??
22 THE COURT: It has to be the agreement or
23 Mr. Miscavige.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah ??
25 THE COURT: The secret agreement.
1478
1 THE WITNESS: I think it was the agreement to
2 add parties.
3 THE COURT: The secret agreement that wasn't a
4 secret from anybody.
5 THE WITNESS: Right, I think the meeting to add
6 parties.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So now tell us, as best you
8 can remember, everything you said about that.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, I explained how, you know,
10 that I came down here, and Stacy Brooks picked me up
11 at the airport, that I thought it was in, you know,
12 July or so of '99, that we went to Mr. Dandar's new
13 office on Kennedy. It was shortly after he had
14 moved in because there were still a lot of boxes
15 there on the floor, there were boxes in the
16 conference room.
17 It was a really hot day. I was very
18 uncomfortable during this meeting and sat down near
19 what I think was the air?conditioning vent to get
20 something because it was really, really hot in the
21 room.
22 Mmm, you know, I explained what the purpose of
23 the meeting was, and what ?? you know, that
24 Mr. Dandar was laying out why he thought that this
25 was a good idea to add David Miscavige as a
1479
1 defendant in the case, what he said to support his
2 feelings in terms of this would put a lot of
3 pressure on Scientology to bring ?? bring them to
4 the settlement table sooner, to make them pay a more
5 substantial amount in settlement because Miscavige
6 was the key in terms of putting pressure on the
7 organization.
8 Mmm, you know, I told them about the ?? about
9 the ?? that Mr. Dandar thought this would be a good
10 idea because of the publicity that it would generate
11 for the case if Miscavige was added as a defendant.
12 And all of this was aimed toward putting
13 pressure on Scientology to settle the case and to
14 settle it for a larger amount of money than they
15 would without Mr. Miscavige being involved in it.
16 Mmm, you know, I told them about ?? I told them
17 what I'd said at this meeting. That I'd mentioned
18 the question about Ray Mithoff, why he wasn't being
19 considered. I said that, you know, my impression
20 was that everybody was pretty much in favor of this.
21 I said that I wasn't in favor of it. And this is
22 the thing they found, I think, hardest to believe
23 about this story was that, you know, that I said I
24 wasn't in favor of it because of the money side of
25 this.
1480
1 And, you know, I told them, I said ?? but at
2 the end of this meeting I did go tell Mr. Dandar,
3 down at the other end of the room where he was with
4 everybody else, that, you know, that whatever ??
5 whatever we decided to do in this thing, that I
6 would support him fully in this. And I didn't mean
7 that morally, you know, just as a cheerleader. I
8 meant that financially.
9 And, you know, that is basically what that
10 meeting to add parties was about.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Did you tell them anything
12 else about the meeting to add parties that you can
13 think about right now?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. The thing about at
15 the end of the meeting when we went down in the
16 elevator and Mr. Dandar saying that we should never
17 talk about this, that this meeting never happened.
18 And Stacy chimed in, "Yeah, it was really
19 weird, it was like there was a bump at the end of
20 the elevator ride."
21 I thought it was ?? it was just a detail that
22 she added, you know. That's all.
23 THE COURT: All right. Is that pretty much it?
24 THE WITNESS: Well, Stacy probably also talked
25 about that meeting to add parties.
1481
1 THE COURT: We have already heard from her
2 about that.
3 THE WITNESS: Right.
4 THE COURT: So this is you. What did you say?
5 THE WITNESS: I mean, who was there, Jesse
6 Prince, Ken Dandar, Michael Garko, myself and Stacy
7 Brooks. And I think that is the essence of it.
8 THE COURT: Okay. That is number two.
9 Then the last thing must have been the secret
10 agreement.
11 THE WITNESS: Right.
12 THE COURT: Tell us, as best you can, about
13 what your recollection is what you said about that
14 April 6, I believe it is, meeting ??
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: ?? regarding that third issue.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well ??
18 THE COURT: Then, Mr. Dandar, I'm going to let
19 you ask the questions that you have.
20 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: You know, I went from the
22 beginning, this first discussion with Mr. Dandar
23 back in the beginning of December of '97, and went
24 through ?? Mmm ?? the whole issue of the Church of
25 Scientology was making all these complaints about
1482
1 Mr. Dandar being an ambulance?chasing attorney and,
2 you know, Dell Liebreich being a money?grubbing old
3 woman. You know, that type of stuff that was being
4 said.
5 And that I'd ?? you know, that I'd suggested to
6 Mr. Dandar that ?? that in order to deflect this
7 type of criticism from Scientology, you know, that
8 the family ought to agree to donate the bulk of the
9 proceeds, or a substantial amount of the proceeds ??
10 I don't remember which word I used in that
11 conversation ?? to, you know, an anti?cult group.
12 And, you know, then I went through the ?? the
13 whole process of ?? of ?? well, of how, later,
14 Mr. Dandar confirmed to me that this was ?? that
15 this money was going to go to FACTNet, whatever this
16 substantial amount was. I think it was
17 "substantial" at that time. It later became "bulk."
18 I explained how, when we ?? when Stacy and I
19 settled this FACTNet litigation, that ?? that
20 sometime shortly thereafter, you know, and by
21 shortly, I mean, you know, a few months after that,
22 in 1999, Mr. Dandar had told me about the fact that
23 the family wanted to set up, you know, a Lisa
24 McPherson type ?? a Lisa McPherson?named
25 organization.
1483
1 And that was probably in June or July. And the
2 thing that ?? well, I remember at the time I
3 registered a domain name for the Lisa Foundation,
4 you know, one of these Internet things, so that ??
5 so when we went through the process of setting that
6 up, you know, that we would have a ready?made domain
7 so that ?? you know, for the website, for E?Mail,
8 things like that.
9 Mmm, you know, I explained how Mr. Dandar was
10 involved in setting up the LMT with us. I explained
11 our preparations for getting it set up.
12 THE COURT: Well, surely they already had the
13 corporate papers.
14 THE WITNESS: Right. But, you know, like you,
15 your Honor, they wanted a full story.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: They weren't looking for, you
18 know, little clues. They were looking for the
19 whole ?? the whole nine yards on it.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, I explained how
22 Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that this FACTNet
23 arrangement would ?? would then evolve into the
24 LMT ?? not evolve but would be the ?? the LMT would
25 be the beneficiary of the ?? of the substantial part
1484
1 or the bulk of the proceeds of the case.
2 Mmm, we set this thing up. You know, they
3 wanted to know, well, why was it set up nonprofit ??
4 for profit. I explained we would turn it into a
5 nonprofit at a later date, you know, when there was
6 money on the table, to basically talk about
7 distributing.
8 Mmm, we talked about ??
9 THE COURT: Did you tell them the reason why it
10 was set up for profit, because you wanted them to
11 keep their "damn nose" out of it?
12 THE WITNESS: I did. I did.
13 THE COURT: Because I remember reading that.
14 THE WITNESS: I did. I did. You know, I mean,
15 at all times we were frank about these things. I
16 mean, you know, there wasn't any reason to, you
17 know, pull any punches at that stage. I think they
18 pretty much heard every nasty thing that could
19 possibly be said about them from me before, so there
20 wasn't anything to hide in that respect.
21 Mmm, you know, and the ??
22 THE COURT: I guess what he really ??
23 Mr. Dandar really wants to know is you testified
24 about all three of these things at great length in
25 this courtroom, about these three areas. Is there
1485
1 anything you told them ??
2 THE WITNESS: Yes?
3 THE COURT: ?? that you told them that you
4 haven't told us? Or did you tell them anything
5 different from what you told us? Or did you tell
6 them what you told us about these three areas?
7 THE WITNESS: You know, I think I have told
8 them the same thing I have told you.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 THE WITNESS: You know, there is no doubt that
11 at times some things were forgotten, you know. And
12 later, a lot of questions came up because some of
13 these areas were, you know, areas which they were
14 not aware of. And I think ?? I think that night
15 Mr. ?? what Mr. Rinder said they were going to do is
16 they were going to put together documentation that
17 related to these areas in which we had talked about.
18 And over the course of several days, they did
19 that. And I believe, you know, the first time that
20 they showed us documents from that ?? that initial
21 Saturday night meeting was the day after Judge
22 Baird's contempt hearing.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: And they had a lot of questions
25 once they had the documents, you know, to cover ??
1486
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 THE WITNESS: ?? these areas.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you have been very
4 good. Thank you. Now you can ask your specific
5 questions.
6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I hate to ask you
7 this. I know this is out of order in some respects,
8 but I just need a real quick comfort break.
9 THE COURT: Let's just break for the day. It
10 is quarter to five. We might as well take a break.
11 MR. WEINBERG: If he wasn't going to mention
12 it, I was going to mention it.
13 THE WITNESS: I'll be back in two minutes.
14 THE COURT: I'm going to quit. I'm tired.
15 MR. DANDAR: I thought we were going to do a
16 marathon.
17 THE COURT: No, we're not going to do a
18 marathon. We'll be in recess until 9 o'clock
19 tomorrow morning. Now you know where you are,
20 specific questions.
21 You may be excused.
22 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:50 p.m.)
23
24
25
1487
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 29th day of May, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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