1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Brian Haney.
17 (Direct Examination)
18 DATE: June 19, 2002. Morning Session.
19 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida.
20
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
21 Circuit Judge.
22 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
Deputy Official Court Reporter,
23 Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22 MR. RICHARD D. ROGOVIN
Bricker & Eckler, LLP
23 100 South Third Street
Columbus, Ohio 43215-4291
24 Attorney for Hugh Brian Haney.
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
3
1 APPEARANCES:
(Continued)
2
3 MR. ROBERT J. HEALY, JR.
Fowler, White, Boggs & Banker
4 501 First Avenue North
Suite 900
5 St. Petersburg, Florida 33701
Attorney for Digital Lightwave.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
4
1 THE COURT: Good morning, everybody.
2 Okay, let's see. I did a rough order this
3 morning, and the secretary hopefully will type it,
4 on the tape, and we'll get that out to Mr. Keane
5 before I leave, so whenever he gets done
6 redrafting -- I'm not going to do it, I'm going to
7 let him do it because I hope he has it on a disk or
8 something where he can make it easier than my
9 redoing it. So hopefully I'll get that out.
10 Now, Mr. Dandar, did you have a chance to go
11 through these documents?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I did.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: And --
15 THE COURT: Wait a second. Let me get them.
16 Madam Clerk, I had a chance to read these, you
17 can go ahead and file these.
18 I'm going to -- this affidavit of Mr. Prince
19 that I didn't think I had seen, once I got to
20 reading it, I had seen it, I believe, in connection
21 with the motion on false imprisonment --
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 THE COURT: -- I believe.
24 MR. DANDAR: That is probably -- that is true.
25 THE COURT: I had seen it and I was trying to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
5
1 figure out where I had seen it. And it may have
2 been something you filed in conjunction with the
3 summary judgment on the false imprisonment.
4 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
5 THE COURT: But if it wasn't there, I saw it
6 somewhere else. I have seen it. I reread it.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE COURT: These are documents for today.
9 Okay, I'll address with you this little packet
10 of information I got, the big packet, both of which
11 you got, and then I want to talk about 211 that has
12 been introduced already that just came in yesterday.
13 Okay?
14 MR. DANDAR: Are you talking about Mr. Keane's
15 documents?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. DANDAR: About LMT?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. DANDAR: First of all, I filed another work
20 product letter. We don't know -- my
21 understanding -- we'll ask Mr. Prince when he gets
22 here -- my understanding is the LMT opened up its
23 office in January of 2000 in Clearwater. And
24 brand-new computers were purchased.
25 So I can't, for the life of me, figure out how
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
6
1 the brand-new hard drives, January 2000, have
2 documents on them from 1998 from Mr. Young's
3 personal hard drive that he deleted.
4 It seems to me -- and we'll have to ask
5 Mr. Bunker or whoever produced hard drives -- if
6 they produced hard drives that did not belong to
7 LMT.
8 THE COURT: Well, I can only tell you that
9 pursuant to this report that you saw, there are
10 eight hard drives that appeared in Mr. Keane's
11 office that were delivered by, I believe,
12 Mr. McGowan.
13 MR. DANDAR: And these are the people that made
14 a deal with Scientology.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if they made a deal or
16 not. That is your assessment of it.
17 All I can tell you is that Mr. Keane will say
18 that some of these hard drives were destroyed, this
19 and that. And apparently they came from Mr. Minton
20 or Ms. Brooks or somebody that had removed these in
21 some fashion and who produced them.
22 Now, I don't know, either. But I do -- I did
23 notice that in this packet of stuff that there are
24 things from 1998, clearly under anybody's thoughts,
25 before LMT was ever incorporated, ever formed or
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
7
1 anything of the sort. So I don't know what to do --
2 MR. DANDAR: Let me --
3 THE COURT: -- about this.
4 MR. DANDAR: Let me hand you what I don't think
5 you have been provided yet from yesterday. And this
6 is the one I talked about. This is the September 5,
7 2001 order from Judge Beach, because this is where
8 Mr. Moxon came to argue his motion that the LMT has
9 not complied with the orders of the Court.
10 And I want to -- first of all, I would like you
11 to read the whole thing, because it talks about
12 everything that was ordered to be preserved and
13 produced.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. DANDAR: Now, this order restricted and
16 narrowed the scope that originated first with Judge
17 Moody, was broadened to anything, practically, with
18 Judge Quesada. And then Judge Beach narrowed it.
19 We had a hearing on this with Mr. Merrett. I
20 was there representing the estate. Mr. Moxon was
21 there representing the defendants. And there was
22 argument that Mr. Moxon wanted a broad category like
23 Judge Quesada had ordered.
24 Judge Beach said no. Paragraph 7: "The Court
25 clarifies the term 'witness' and limits the scope of
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
8
1 discovery to persons who have any facts, directly or
2 indirectly, about how this case," meaning the
3 wrongful death case, "arose out of the incident
4 occurring with respect to Lisa McPherson. This
5 includes any witness that has any evidence of any
6 activity with other witnesses' gathering of
7 information from other witnesses or payments to
8 other witnesses."
9 Judge Moody started this discovery by saying
10 that they were only allowed to -- defense was only
11 allowed to get videos of people making statements
12 who were on my witness list concerning this case who
13 I was going to call, because the only reason anybody
14 would want a statement of a witness is to impeach
15 that witness.
16 And then Mr. Moxon -- or the defense added on
17 Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks. And I made an argument,
18 and I carried it to the extreme, pretty soon they're
19 going to be adding on my secretary, my wife, my
20 neighbors next door, and want to go get their bank
21 records, financial information, statements,
22 whatever.
23 Judge Beach narrowed that in Paragraph 7 to
24 witnesses of this case. In these documents -- and
25 there was no -- the procedure that I understood to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
9
1 exist is once the master had gathered the
2 information, he would provide it to the Court, and
3 the Court would determine what complied with the
4 order.
5 But what happened is Mr. Moxon shows up at the
6 master's office, without letting us know he's there,
7 and grabs this information as the master puts it
8 down on the table, thinking, I believe, this
9 complies with the order of the Court.
10 And I don't believe -- and I'll get corrected,
11 I'm sure -- that there is an order of the Court that
12 says Mr. Moxon can go to the master's office and sit
13 there and wait for an -- or an agent of the defense
14 and sit and wait for the documents to come in, and
15 grab them before the plaintiff has a chance --
16 THE COURT: Let's not use the word "grab"
17 because that would be offensive. I don't have any
18 evidence he grabbed them. I have evidence that he
19 was provided them and he took them --
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 THE COURT: -- as provided by the special
22 master.
23 MR. DANDAR: Right. I don't believe there is
24 an order that says that can take place.
25 THE COURT: There is an order, and I don't know
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
10
1 what it is or what it says, but there is an order
2 that set up the special master.
3 I'm sure what Judge Beach didn't want to do and
4 what I really don't want to do is to have to look at
5 all these hundreds and thousands of documents. That
6 is why a special master was put into place to begin
7 with so -- I don't know where it is. But I would
8 hope that Judge Beach, when he appointed the special
9 master -- because I believe it was him who appointed
10 the special master, because apparently when LMT
11 showed up for this deposition they didn't do what
12 they were supposed to do, is what I guess, and so a
13 special master was appointed to do certain things.
14 I don't know where that order is but there must
15 be one. And I can assume that Mr. Keane was trying
16 to comply with these orders in whatever it was he
17 did.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure he was. But I don't
19 think the order contemplated an ex parte
20 communication and gathering of information.
21 THE COURT: Well, where is the order? Somebody
22 give me the order. Let me see what it says.
23 MR. DANDAR: I don't have that.
24 THE COURT: Well, that is what we need. We
25 need the order -- it would be an order setting up
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
11
1 this special master and telling the special master
2 what they were to do.
3 MR. DANDAR: Well, while they're looking for
4 that, let me tell you what is wrong with this
5 production. Besides having a couple of my work
6 product letters between me and my expert, Vaughn
7 Young, and my consultant, Stacy Brooks, what is on
8 here are a bunch of E-Mail addresses, a bunch of
9 E-Mail addresses of people who are not witnesses in
10 this case.
11 And I believe -- and it is only upon my belief,
12 I don't have any hard facts yet -- these are people
13 who sought help from the Lisa McPherson Trust, which
14 the discovery orders of this Court forbade the
15 defendants to have that, the identity of those
16 people.
17 And that is what is the most flagrant problem
18 with this production.
19 THE COURT: Well, you know, the problem with
20 that is the person who needs to be making that
21 argument is the lawyer for LMT, the lawyer for Stacy
22 Brooks, the lawyer for Bob Minton, or the lawyer for
23 Mr. Bunker. That is one in the same. And he hasn't
24 made it.
25 MR. DANDAR: And I think it is telling that he
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
12
1 hasn't made it.
2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what it is, but
3 I'm telling you that -- yes, and I did -- based on
4 what Stacy Brooks testified to here in court, did
5 say that I was concerned because of her concern that
6 people who had come to the trust who were not
7 identified in this case in any way, that those
8 names, tapes, whatever, not be revealed.
9 And -- and have taken steps, I presume, in my
10 decisions on the tapes that would be released, to
11 see to it that that didn't occur, at least -- at
12 least, as best I could, using -- using Attachment A
13 as the basis, or -- or who were witnesses. Because
14 there were people on there that, quite frankly, I
15 didn't know. But that is all right, there are lots
16 of witnesses that I haven't touched that deal with
17 other things.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. McGowan said he kept all
19 that stuff out. He said he made a special effort to
20 remove all that.
21 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan did say that. The
22 problem is with Mr. McGowan -- I don't know what
23 he's reviewing, but I gathered that he was saying
24 that Mr. Keane had produced --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Here is what he did. What he --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
13
1 I'm sorry, I'll stand up.
2 THE COURT: Do you know what he did, Counsel?
3 MR. WEINBERG: He said to us --
4 THE COURT: Do you know anything beyond what he
5 said to us?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't.
7 THE COURT: All right. Well, then --
8 MR. WEINBERG: What I understood him to say was
9 is that he had reviewed these documents and then he
10 turned them over to Mr. Keane.
11 THE COURT: That is what I remember is that he
12 said. But, see, what I don't know is, Mr. Keane,
13 what was given to him. But, yes, I believe he did
14 indicate -- you were there?
15 MR. DANDAR: I was there.
16 THE COURT: He made an effort. Matter of fact,
17 what he said he was going to do was turn those over
18 to the Court at some point in time because he made
19 an effort to protect what he perceived to be
20 nondiscoverable and --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Frankly, we weren't interested.
22 We made that clear. We're not interested in the
23 names of those people and --
24 THE COURT: Right. So he made an effort to
25 hold those out. And I believe he was going to say
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
14
1 he was suggesting to us -- we should always have a
2 court reporter, I guess, but it is always so much
3 trouble when you want to seal something to have a
4 court reporter involved.
5 I guess what he said, he was going to turn
6 those over to the Court.
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Let me go through them and see if
9 he had withheld anything that I thought was
10 discoverable based on the orders, various orders,
11 that were entered.
12 However, obviously, based on my reading of
13 these things that apparently were produced, nobody
14 seems to understand exactly what the Judge has
15 ordered. Because I, too, look in here and find
16 information that really is not the Church's business
17 or your business or anybody's business except LMT.
18 There are some things here that absolutely are
19 not part of LMT's computer. I have no idea what --
20 and as I said, neither does Mr. Keane. He has no
21 idea, he just says that a hard drive showed up
22 mysteriously, that he thought he accounted for
23 these, for the hard drives, and all of a sudden he
24 was getting hard drives.
25 But I can't have him -- because either
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
15
1 Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks or somebody else is
2 producing some hard drive, and Mr. Keane, basically,
3 he doesn't want to go through all these pages and
4 pages, believe you me. I didn't, either, as I was
5 reading through these. You know what I mean?
6 But, I mean, I can understand what Mr. Keane
7 did. He said, "Here, look at all this stuff," and
8 whatever he didn't protect, then as far as Mr. Keane
9 was concerned, "Here, you can have it." But there
10 is stuff going out that really the Church has no
11 business having, and you wouldn't, either, quite
12 frankly.
13 Now you have it, they have it, and I have it,
14 and I don't have any business having it either.
15 MR. DANDAR: So can we get it back into --
16 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what we can do.
17 We have this. I went through this. And, quite
18 frankly, there is one document that takes up the
19 bulk of this which is some deposition --
20 MR. DANDAR: It is Stacy Brooks' transcript
21 which takes up the bulk.
22 THE COURT: Right. And, frankly, that is a
23 matter of public record, so nobody cares.
24 MR. DANDAR: We don't care about that. Right.
25 THE COURT: There is a whole bunch of stuff in
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
16
1 here you couldn't read; it is some sort of garbled
2 something.
3 MR. DANDAR: Right.
4 THE COURT: I am not going to protect somebody
5 that hasn't asked for protection. I can't -- I
6 can't let you ask to protect it except what you need
7 to protect for yourself. And I saw, too, a couple
8 things that I think are work product that I'm going
9 to order returned --
10 MR. DANDAR: There are people on E-Mail lists
11 from around the world that couldn't possibly afford
12 to come to this Court and object. I mean, their
13 E-Mail addresses are now known to the Church of
14 Scientology --
15 THE COURT: Why don't you make your argument to
16 the lawyer? I mean, I'm not here -- I am in my 26th
17 day of hearings on a motion, for goodness sakes, in
18 this case, that was scheduled to take four months to
19 try. I cannot protect the people of the world and
20 their E-Mails.
21 MR. DANDAR: But, Judge, since there is no
22 substance to these -- this production that we can
23 identify except my work product, could we have
24 defense turn over all copies of these productions to
25 the Court and give these people the opportunity to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
17
1 object? Maybe we can --
2 THE COURT: What do you think, I'm going to
3 write to them?
4 MR. DANDAR: No, but we can have someone write
5 to them. I mean, there are family members on here
6 of -- for instance, of Patricia Greenway; mother,
7 sisters, girlfriends, around the world. I mean,
8 their private E-Mail addresses. It invades their
9 privacy to produce these documents. They have
10 nothing to do with the case.
11 THE COURT: I don't know what to tell you.
12 There is a special master. Nobody yet has given me
13 the order. I need to see what the judge ordered the
14 special master to do. If the judge ordered the
15 special master to do what the special master has
16 done, then he has done what he has done. And if we
17 need to adjust the order, we can adjust the order.
18 Where is the order?
19 MR. MOXON: I don't have it in hand, but I can
20 get it faxed in or have it printed off.
21 THE COURT: Can you do that?
22 MR. MOXON: Sure.
23 THE COURT: We'll just have to address that
24 later.
25 MR. DANDAR: The other matter that we scheduled
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
18
1 for production today is the --
2 THE COURT: I'm not done with these yet.
3 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry.
4 THE COURT: You said now there is work product,
5 so let's hear that, that you do have a right to talk
6 about. Let's hear what they are.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Of course, one is the
8 E-Mail that they questioned Mr. Young about.
9 THE COURT: Yes, I looked at this -- this
10 document that was produced yesterday. It came from
11 this same packet, this thick packet.
12 MR. DANDAR: I would like to point out to the
13 Court it is a JPG file, J-P-G, which means someone
14 scanned in a copy of the E-Mail.
15 THE COURT: Well, you have to understand that
16 my knowledge of this is limited.
17 MR. DANDAR: So is mine. But I know that much.
18 THE COURT: But I do know enough to know this.
19 I do know this was written from you to
20 Writer@Eskimo.com, which has been identified by
21 Mr. Young, in April of 1998, before anyone
22 complained that LMT was in existence. This is a
23 work product document --
24 MR. WEINBERG: It is. But as we said
25 yesterday, when Mr. Young was tendered as a
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
19
1 testifying expert witness in this case, which was in
2 the fall of 1999, when I took his deposition, then
3 when he gave his trial testimony in whatever it was,
4 January or February of 2000, you remember that whole
5 dialogue about we had -- we had subpoenaed or
6 requested to produce all of the communications
7 between Mr. Young and Mr. -- and Mr. Dandar, and
8 Mr. Dandar said he produced everything in the world.
9 He didn't take any work product, he didn't take
10 any -- he didn't maintain any objection to it.
11 There is no work product protection for
12 Mr. Young at this point.
13 THE COURT: Well, you know what? The problem
14 is I can't let you have something in the fashion
15 that you got it.
16 MR. WEINBERG: But it should have been --
17 THE COURT: Right now -- well, if he doesn't
18 keep his E-Mails --
19 MR. WEINBERG: He has it now.
20 THE COURT: That is right. But you don't get
21 to get it and use it the way you got it. That is
22 wrong. That is his work product.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I mean --
24 THE COURT: So you can't do that. What has to
25 happen now, Mr. Dandar, you have got a continuing
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
20
1 obligation to produce whatever it is you were
2 ordered to produce, or you-all agreed to produce
3 between yourself and your experts. And if, in fact,
4 this exists, which obviously it does, I'm holding a
5 copy of it, then you need to produce it.
6 So if it is something you would need to
7 produce, let's just forget this one and just say
8 we'll just forget it.
9 MR. DANDAR: We can't forget it because, number
10 one, that document is an E-Mail from me. I keep no
11 copies of my E-Mails, so I couldn't produce that
12 even if I wanted to.
13 Mr. Young testified in April of '98 he was
14 divorced from his wife, he erased his hard drive,
15 which included all his E-Mails. How in the world
16 did that E-Mail get produced?
17 THE COURT: I have no idea.
18 MR. DANDAR: That is what is beyond our
19 comprehension. That is why it is wrong. I would
20 have made a privilege log and listed that on a
21 privilege log, because that has nothing to do with
22 his testimony as an expert.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Sure, it does. It has to do
24 with the amended complaint.
25 THE COURT: No, it doesn't. It has to do with
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
21
1 the hearing. It has nothing to do with this case,
2 no.
3 MR. WEINBERG: No, it had to do with his
4 testimony at the time.
5 THE COURT: Yes, but it had nothing to do -- I
6 would not have required him to produce this, quite
7 frankly, if he would have done a privilege log. So
8 he doesn't agree to it.
9 So I'm ruling you had no business getting this
10 in the fashion that you got it. Therefore, I'm
11 striking the testimony for whatever it was in the
12 record for this hearing and ordering this returned.
13 MR. WEINBERG: And we will give -- we will
14 renew our request to -- to Mr. Dandar for the
15 documents that -- that we requested for his trial
16 testimony.
17 THE COURT: But you understand lawyers do
18 delete E-Mails? They do.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But --
20 THE COURT: And other people delete E-Mails. I
21 do, too. And if somebody now comes along and
22 requests that I produce them, if they are deleted
23 I'm not going to produce them.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. But remember the
25 first witness, the first letter Mr. Dandar ever sent
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
22
1 to him didn't get produced to us, either, the May of
2 1997 letter, which he said he couldn't find in his
3 office. Lawyers don't delete letters.
4 THE COURT: That is true. But you know what, I
5 didn't delete that. And that is in this record.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
7 THE COURT: There is a difference. I have no
8 idea how you got this.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I know how we got it. We got it
10 from Mr. -- from Mr. Keane.
11 THE COURT: You don't understand. Please
12 don't --
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: Please, listen to me when I'm
15 talking.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
17 THE COURT: I don't know how you got it because
18 I don't believe it is part of any LMT computer that
19 I'm aware of, unless, of course, they moved in some
20 of their own personal computers into LMT, which they
21 could have done, instead of buying new ones. And it
22 could have been on there. It could have been there
23 on a hard drive that they removed, and it could have
24 been produced in that fashion.
25 For right now, I don't know how you got it.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
23
1 I'm ruling it is work product. I'm ruling it is
2 inadmissible in this hearing, and I'm ordering you
3 to return all copies of it to Mr. Dandar.
4 If I were you, I would not destroy this and I
5 would do a privilege log. And I'll make a decision
6 that -- now you got it -- as to whether or not you
7 have got to turn it over.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: Quite frankly, you know, I might
10 require you to turn it over. I don't know what it
11 is. I don't even understand it yet, because it
12 seems to say here are two definitions of clear in
13 the complaint, and then what goes on to be discussed
14 under there is not a definition of clear.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Those are actually paragraphs in
16 one of the amended complaints, I think.
17 THE COURT: Oh.
18 MR. FUGATE: First amended complaint.
19 THE COURT: You do a privilege log, you tell me
20 what it is in your privilege log. I'll tell you
21 whether you have to turn it over.
22 MR. WEINBERG: For whatever it is worth, I
23 think I remember Mr. Young yesterday saying that
24 although he had erased his computer, he left it with
25 Ms. Young, so -- I mean, it is possible that
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
24
1 particular hard drive ended up with LMT.
2 THE COURT: It is also possible there is some
3 shenanigans going on that I'm not attributing to you
4 or your client.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
6 THE COURT: But I do believe there is an
7 allegation in this case that Mr. Minton and
8 Ms. Young have every reason in the world to try to
9 please the Church of Scientology. That is an
10 allegation. There is also an allegation they have
11 been extorted. I haven't ruled on that yet so I
12 have to be somewhat careful when information is
13 being produced.
14 I don't know where this came from. It has
15 nothing to do with LMT. Therefore, I made my ruling
16 on that.
17 Now, in this packet of information there is
18 another document that I found --
19 MR. DANDAR: Page 64 is the work product
20 letter. Is that what you are referring to?
21 THE COURT: I don't know. Page 64? Yes, I see
22 there are pages here.
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: Yes. Page 64 I have turned down.
25 I have put a check mark by the first top of that
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
25
1 that says, "The Court has granted my motion to
2 produce the PC folders. COS" -- I presume that is
3 Church of Scientology, I presume it is abbreviated
4 that way -- "says they already produced her ethics
5 and all other of her files."
6 Whatever -- anyway, is the Church correct, do
7 you have the other folders? This, again, is dated
8 1998, March. This is the letter -- I can't really
9 tell whether this went to Mr. Vaughn Young or Stacy
10 Young, but it appears whoever got it sent it to the
11 other saying, "Vaughn, do we have that?"
12 So I'm gathering you sent it to Stacy, she sent
13 it to Vaughn, and then he responds.
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That is correct.
15 THE COURT: That looks like a work product
16 information to me. I do not think that this would
17 be any direction to -- I mean, I can't imagine that
18 I would have ordered this, if this came to me on
19 privilege log, that I would order this turned over.
20 This is not -- this is -- when you get stuff between
21 the lawyer and their expert, it is not this kind of
22 stuff. So turn it back. Give it back. And all
23 copies.
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge --
25 THE COURT: That is the document on Page 64 of
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
26
1 the -- of the thick packet.
2 MR. DANDAR: I also show it is a -- duplicated
3 on Page 67 at the top.
4 THE COURT: I have that turned down, yes,
5 "Duplicate on Page 67," so turn Page 67, at least
6 that part that deals with that, back.
7 MR. DANDAR: And the one they marked as an
8 exhibit, that is twice in this package.
9 THE COURT: Page 68 is one.
10 MR. DANDAR: Mmm --
11 THE COURT: And Page 69 is the other. Right?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Now, one thing that I didn't know
14 what it was, Counselor, and I don't know where it
15 is, but -- there was something else asking about an
16 affidavit of some other person. That I turned down,
17 but I can't find it.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes. It is the request about -- I
19 think an affidavit of Ursula Caberta. I don't know
20 where that is.
21 THE COURT: Do you care? Because I marked it
22 but I can't seem to find it.
23 MR. DANDAR: I don't care because Ursula
24 Caberta -- I don't even know what it was about. I
25 had an affidavit. If they had the affidavit or what
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
27
1 was going on -- but it's in here. And it's not -- I
2 would consider that work product.
3 THE COURT: So if you-all will please return
4 those pages.
5 Now, in the little packet, I did not turn down
6 anything that I thought was work product.
7 MR. DANDAR: I didn't see anything, either,
8 Judge.
9 THE COURT: Okay. The other thing that I am
10 not sure of, according to Mr. -- to Mr. Keane,
11 Mr. Moxon has gone through boxes and boxes and boxes
12 of documents. So this was just what he kind of
13 implied was, frankly, it was just kind of a mishmash
14 of stuff.
15 But that this -- that this coming off these new
16 computers that had just come in were the only things
17 that I think he thought were -- were maybe going to
18 be in any way relevant. I don't know what it is.
19 Mr. Moxon, how many documents did you take to
20 the Church out of whatever it is that you got from
21 Mr. Keane's office?
22 MR. MOXON: I would say there was probably
23 another 20, 30 pages.
24 THE COURT: Okay. He kind of implied there
25 were a lot of boxes and you went through them.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
28
1 MR. MOXON: There was. It was pretty useless
2 stuff.
3 THE COURT: He kind of implied it was useless
4 stuff. I want you to go through the 20 or 30 pages
5 and I want you, in an abundance of caution, to copy
6 them so I can make sure there is no more work
7 product in it.
8 MR. MOXON: Of course.
9 THE COURT: You don't have to return them
10 unless I tell you to. Just give me a copy of them.
11 MR. MOXON: Sure, and I'll give a copy to
12 Mr. Dandar. I assume Mr. Dandar will go over and do
13 the same thing.
14 THE COURT: Well, that is what Mr. Keane
15 assumes, too. In other words, it is here, come look
16 at it. And I'm not going to require him to make
17 copies of all that, send it to everybody, because I
18 don't think that is necessary. So, you know -- but
19 I did tell Mr. Keane yesterday and I will put this
20 as part of my tape order that any E-Mails that are
21 from Mr. Dandar or to Mr. Dandar should not be
22 released, they should be sent to me, I'll review
23 them.
24 MR. MOXON: I understand.
25 THE COURT: I do know what your allegations are
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
29
1 in the counterclaim and there may be some that
2 clearly are not work product that have to do with
3 your counterclaim. You'll get those.
4 MR. MOXON: Okay.
5 THE COURT: Even though I think that when these
6 orders were done, they were done not necessarily
7 because of what is going on here, what have you.
8 But I need to review those so we don't have to get
9 into this. So I have ordered Mr. Keane to send me
10 anything from you or to you that he finds in
11 whatever it is he finds. He said he will do that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: So that will protect -- then of
14 course I'll make you all aware at some point what I
15 got, whether I'm turning them all over or what --
16 whether I'm keeping some. Whatever I keep I'll
17 seal, and if there is any problem. Okay?
18 MR. WEINBERG: My question is should we just
19 destroy or shred these work product things? Or do
20 you want us to give them to you?
21 THE COURT: I don't care.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 THE COURT: Do one or the other.
24 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I think Mr. Fugate
25 is in possession of them.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
30
1 THE COURT: Please do it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think he has all of the
3 copies.
4 THE COURT: What happens is that these things,
5 if they are not shredded or destroyed, five years
6 down the road, you'll be looking for some stuff, it
7 will come up, you'll forget about it, it will be put
8 in a document and somebody will bring it to my
9 attention. So get rid of them.
10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, do you want me
11 to deliver them to the Court then?
12 THE COURT: I'm just going to throw them in the
13 wastebasket. Yes, give them to me, I'll throw them
14 in the wastebasket.
15 MR. FUGATE: Those were the ones that were
16 identified.
17 THE COURT: Okay. There. So I think -- and I
18 don't see anything, Mr. Dandar, that problematic in
19 here. As I said, I didn't understand whatever it
20 was that was put into evidence. It wasn't a big
21 deal, so I'm not going to concern myself with that,
22 or the other ones, just that they are work product.
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 THE COURT: But as I said, this one you're
25 going to have to decide, based on -- based on some
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
31
1 of these things that are now being provided, if you
2 get copies of them, whether or not you are required
3 to submit them, and if you don't think you are, you
4 better put them in a privilege log.
5 MR. DANDAR: I will.
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I believe, and I'll try to
7 pull the report, but I believe, so at least the
8 record is clear here, that in the report that I saw
9 there was an indication there were ten computers
10 located. Eight appeared to be new and the hard
11 drives were taken out, and two were old and the hard
12 drives were taken out. So I don't know -- when I
13 say old computers --
14 THE COURT: Well, apparently there is some
15 other hard drives, because what Mr. Keane said is he
16 thought he kind of accounted for -- and now he
17 thinks he has hard drives that he's not sure what
18 they go with. Mr. Keane will give us a final report
19 and what have you. I'm not too concerned. As I
20 said, I can't protect the world here. I suggest
21 that you call Mr. --
22 MR. FUGATE: McGowan.
23 THE COURT: -- Mr. McGowan if you don't think
24 he's being careful enough and if LMT or he might get
25 sued, you better tell him of your concern. Let him
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
32
1 decide these things.
2 MR. FUGATE: I don't know how Mr. Keane would
3 have a clue who any of these people are.
4 THE COURT: He wouldn't. I'm not talking about
5 Mr. Keane. I'm talking about Mr. McGowan who is the
6 counsel for this LMT --
7 MR. FUGATE: I understand.
8 THE COURT: -- and Ms. Brooks -- in other
9 words, they're the ones that have --
10 MR. FUGATE: The privacy right.
11 THE COURT: -- the privacy right to protect.
12 And right now, Mr. Dandar, they don't appear to be
13 much in your favor. So what I would suggest is that
14 you call their lawyer and tell him that there is
15 some documents being produced that you think that
16 people might be concerned about. You can tell him
17 specifically about Ms. Greenway and anybody else
18 that you see in there.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right.
20 THE COURT: And if he wants to make a motion to
21 ask me to return them, that he -- I will, but I -- I
22 have got to sometime this morning, before we quit,
23 since I'll be kind of out of pocket a couple weeks,
24 I want to see what order was given to the special
25 master.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
33
1 MR. DANDAR: All right.
2 THE COURT: And if that needs to be adjusted, I
3 will. As I said, I can guarantee you I -- I will
4 not sit this morning and look through and read
5 through all these. I don't want to do that. That
6 is what a special master is for.
7 MR. DANDAR: I want to bring to your attention
8 that the Church of Scientology Flag Service
9 Organization, Inc. is petitioning the probate court
10 to have me produce a complete accounting of all of
11 the money that Mr. Minton gave me, which is contrary
12 to your order in this case. But it's in the probate
13 case. So they are trying to do another end run, as
14 I would call it, to get the information that you
15 forbade, as well as the Second District Court of
16 Appeal.
17 THE COURT: Well, I think you have to address
18 this with -- with the probate court. I'll read this
19 during the break. Okay?
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 THE COURT: I can see, Mr. Dandar, this -- I
22 don't know about the probate situation. I'll look
23 at that. I hadn't thought of that. But I can
24 certainly see in the Texas judgment where you were
25 ordered personally to pay a certain amount of money,
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
34
1 I don't remember what it was, $30,000, $60,000.
2 MR. DANDAR: Well, $98,000.
3 THE COURT: $98,000. That if that is brought
4 to this circuit, which I believe it has been --
5 MR. DANDAR: They're trying.
6 THE COURT: Well, if that happens and you don't
7 pay that judgment, that is going to be required to
8 be produced. There is nothing that I could or would
9 do to thwart someone from collecting a judgment. So
10 if I were you, I would pay the judgment.
11 MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge --
12 THE COURT: As I said, if you don't pay the
13 judgment, I am not going to interfere in any way
14 with somebody, who has a judgment from a court,
15 collecting it.
16 And, therefore, I know what they're going to
17 ask, and they are going to do a deposition in aid of
18 execution. That is what I would do if I were a
19 lawyer, and I would be, quite frankly, annoyed if
20 some other judge doing another case said, "Well,
21 look, some Second District said you can't have
22 this." Well, they have got a judgment. So pay the
23 judgment or suffer the consequences.
24 MR. DANDAR: It is on appeal and there is a
25 federal statute that forbids any execution outside
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
35
1 of the jurisdiction of the court that entered it.
2 Any --
3 THE COURT: I don't need to go there.
4 MR. DANDAR: I just want you to go there.
5 THE COURT: I'll tell you that if you have got
6 a judgment, it becomes a final judgment, and you
7 don't pay the final judgment, don't look to me to
8 go -- I mean, you can take the Second District
9 cases, but they're going to laugh at you because
10 that would have nothing, no bearing, and the Second
11 District would tell you that.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: They don't mean for somebody not to
14 be able to collect a judgment because of some order
15 entered in this case. I will read this probate -- I
16 had not even thought of that. I know nothing about
17 probate, but I'll look at it.
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, so there is no
19 mystery here, either, by the way -- and I don't
20 recall the date off the top of my head -- but
21 Mr. Pope, I believe, indicated to your Honor in
22 Mr. Dandar's presence at a hearing, I believe it was
23 a motion -- I don't recall what it was -- that we
24 would like to go back in probate because of these
25 judgments to protect the Church's position.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
36
1 And we wanted to notify you of that, and you
2 indicated that is probate, you can do whatever you
3 want to do. And it -- Mr. Dandar was here, we were
4 here and Mr. Pope, and I believe Mr. Rosen actually
5 came and said we want to go back in there but we
6 don't want to do it if in some way that is going to
7 be causing a problem in this case, but we do need to
8 protect the client's interests.
9 And I remember sitting right here when that
10 happened, oh, so many weeks and weeks ago, but --
11 but that was brought up and Mr. Dandar was apprised.
12 And I believe that is asking for an in camera
13 production to the Court, not to --
14 THE COURT: Well, let me read it.
15 MR. FUGATE: Not to the --
16 THE COURT: If you will notice, my order was
17 drawn in a fashion that did not direct any other
18 judge any place. It was my order dealing with this
19 case.
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, please read it, because let
21 me tell you, I haven't.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar can produce that order
23 to any other judge if he wanted to, and if any other
24 judge wanted to give it any other credence, they
25 could. Frankly, Judge Baird didn't care a thing
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
37
1 about the Second District orders that were
2 written -- Second District opinions that were
3 written in my case. It is very clear, very clear
4 from the hearing, very clear based on what he said.
5 Well, then the Second District did an opinion in his
6 case and I'm sure now he does care about it. I'm
7 sure Judge Baird may not care a thing about the
8 order that I wrote. Nor should he. I might not
9 care about an order he wrote. I mean, you know, we
10 all have to deal with our own --
11 MR. FUGATE: Court.
12 THE COURT: -- court and our own cases. But I
13 will read this to see if it causes me anything that
14 I want to comment on.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
17 MR. DANDAR: The last thing before we call
18 Mr. Haney, we requested the defense to produce the
19 settlement documents with Vicki Aznaran since they
20 went ahead and introduced her three affidavits
21 recanting her prior affidavits and attacking the
22 lawyer, Graham Berry, for suborning perjury and
23 other misconduct, I believe. Since they used those
24 three recantation affidavits, we requested this
25 morning that they produce those settlement documents
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
38
1 and I have not heard a response yet.
2 THE COURT: All right. Do you have your notice
3 to produce?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
5 THE COURT: I wonder, as I hear this I'm
6 wondering, what am I doing here? Why am I even
7 receiving Vicki Aznaran's recantation affidavit, and
8 affidavits, and -- but apparently I have, so 25 days
9 is a long time.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, Mr. Dandar is the one
11 that filed the affidavits originally. And now you
12 want a private settlement agreement?
13 THE COURT: Let me read this. Well, it's a
14 little bit like putting somebody on your witness
15 list and getting a copy of their tape --
16 MR. WEINBERG: But it is like any settlement
17 agreement.
18 THE COURT: But as I said, had I been in charge
19 of this case from the beginning, you wouldn't be
20 adding to -- to your witness list and getting their
21 tape. I have enforced the judge's orders because it
22 was another judge's order, but let me see what this
23 says.
24 Okay, this is kind of straightforward. You
25 haven't produced it, obviously.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
39
1 MR. WEINBERG: No, we haven't.
2 THE COURT: Tell me why it is you believe you
3 think you get it. When I tell you I don't remember
4 why we're dealing with Vicki Aznaran, you're going
5 to have to remind me.
6 MR. DANDAR: All right, Vicki Aznaran was the
7 senior of Jesse Prince.
8 THE COURT: I know that and I know she left the
9 Church of Scientology. I know she wrote some
10 affidavits. I know then she wrote three affidavits
11 where she said that she had entered a global
12 settlement or whatever, and she lied, and that those
13 affidavits weren't valid. And she's the one that
14 said one of the lawyers had -- had added ten pages
15 to one of her declarations, which wasn't even her
16 declaration, we just added these ten pages. So I
17 remember all that. I don't know why I even have it.
18 MR. DANDAR: Well, because it's more evidence
19 of a pattern of conduct with the Church of
20 Scientology.
21 THE COURT: So you introduced it?
22 MR. DANDAR: I don't think I did. I introduced
23 her true affidavit, I'll call it, before she made
24 her global settlement which is attached to that
25 packet of additional authorities to add parties.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
40
1 I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you are wrong because
3 remember, all we did was substitute the executed
4 copies. You introduced a thing of posting that had
5 all of the affidavits in it, right? That is what
6 you did --
7 THE COURT: It --
8 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was Vicki Aznaran. All
9 he -- we did, he introduced nine postings, which I
10 think we objected to at the time. We produced
11 signed copies of the affidavits the other day that
12 was in this posting that -- that he produced.
13 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know why you would
14 be entitled to a copy of her settlement agreement.
15 MR. DANDAR: Because it would show that she was
16 required to sign these affidavits, recant her prior
17 sworn testimony, and go after the attorney. The
18 same thing that Minton and Brooks had been required
19 to do. The same thing they tried to get Vaughn
20 Young and Stacy Young to do back in 1994.
21 THE COURT: You think it would?
22 MR. DANDAR: I think it would. It would show
23 this pattern, this is how we --
24 THE COURT: You think that would be in the
25 settlement agreement?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
41
1 MR. DANDAR: It would be in the settlement
2 agreement, yes, I do believe it would be there.
3 Remember, they talked public and secret settlement
4 agreement.
5 THE COURT: Well, I will beg to differ with
6 you. I don't think you ought to see the settlement
7 agreement. However, I do think you will see in the
8 settlement agreement she's to make no more
9 affidavits or declarations in cases against the
10 Church. But I don't think you'll see she has to
11 submit false affidavits and she has to --
12 MR. DANDAR: Set the record straight, I'm sure
13 it will say that. Because it says it in
14 Mr. Rinder's 1994 --
15 THE COURT: It does. But there is nothing
16 wrong with setting the record straight.
17 MR. DANDAR: Unless that is a lie.
18 THE COURT: Well, I'll hear from you. I think
19 what he's suggesting is that if I were to see the
20 settlement agreement, that I would see that the
21 settlement is a requirement to get the lawyer and to
22 submit false affidavits.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he thinks. I mean,
24 that is sort of like a lot of his arguments, you
25 know --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
42
1 THE COURT: Well --
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- in this case. First of all,
3 just so the record is straight, this is the document
4 that he introduced which was the Bob Minton posting
5 with all of the affidavits on it.
6 THE COURT: Oh, right. And that had the three
7 affidavits?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, and all we did was put
9 the -- put them in executed form.
10 THE COURT: Well, then you can't -- I don't
11 believe you can put the affidavits in and then say
12 you are entitled to the settlement agreement. You
13 know, truthfully, if I thought that any settlement
14 agreement was in writing that Ms. Aznaran had a copy
15 of had any such thing that you thought it had in it,
16 I probably would order it produced just for the
17 purpose of this hearing, even maybe under seal. I
18 don't think it has anything like you are suggesting
19 in it.
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, shouldn't you at least take
21 a look at it? Under seal?
22 THE COURT: Would you object to my looking at
23 it in camera? It is up to you. I mean --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, just so -- I mean, I feel
25 at somewhat of a loss because this is not a
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
43
1 settlement agreement with the Church of Scientology
2 Flag. It's a settlement agreement with some other
3 church organization which I assume, although I don't
4 even know is CSI, they have their own lawyers.
5 Ms. Aznaran also was the other side of the
6 settlement agreement, and I assume like all
7 settlement agreements it probably has some sort of
8 confidentiality provision in it.
9 THE COURT: I'm sure it does. Let's do this,
10 let's make this simple. I'm going to suggest that I
11 have no idea, of course, whether this settlement
12 agreement has any relevance or bearing on this
13 hearing. I will ask, and that is just ask, that it
14 be produced in camera for me to determine. However,
15 if I determine it does have some relevance, then
16 there is the possibility it would be turned over.
17 If I determine it did not have any relevance, I
18 would turn it back.
19 I will give you an opportunity to object to
20 that.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
22 THE COURT: I'm just asking at this point
23 because that is the simplest way --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I just want to make the record
25 clear. I have never seen this settlement agreement.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
44
1 THE COURT: And she may object, and if she may
2 have a lawyer that wants to object and you can
3 advise me of that, and I'll decide if it is worth my
4 thinking about an order. But at this point I don't
5 know whether you want to do it or not. If you do --
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'll find out.
7 THE COURT: But you run the risk, if you allow
8 me to look at it in camera and I say, yes, look
9 here, the Church told her to lie under oath, that is
10 relevant.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I suspect there is not a
12 provision that says she has to lie under oath or get
13 her lawyer disbarred. I suspect there is not a
14 provision like that.
15 MR. DANDAR: We have no other matters. We're
16 ready to call our witness.
17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I have the two orders
18 you just requested from Judge Beach.
19 THE COURT: Oh, good.
20 MR. MOXON: I'll just hand it up.
21 THE COURT: What I'll do, this is dealing with
22 the special master?
23 MR. MOXON: That is correct. Your Honor, I
24 know Judge Beach indicated he was going to talk to
25 Mr. Keane and of course we weren't privy to those
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
45
1 conversations --
2 THE COURT: Right.
3 MR. MOXON: So he probably briefed him and told
4 him more about it.
5 THE COURT: I did, too. I talked to Mr. Keane,
6 for example, about the tapes when I met with him.
7 MR. MOXON: Sure.
8 THE COURT: So, you know, there may have been
9 more, but I'll read this at the break, too. Matter
10 of fact, it is ten until ten. We haven't done
11 anything. But I would like to clear up all this
12 legal stuff, so let's just -- I mean, I know nobody
13 wants to take a break, including me, but I'm going
14 to take this -- you take that -- what is that?
15 MR. WEINBERG: What is -- oh, that is what
16 Mr. Dandar gave you?
17 THE COURT: This. The probate order. Where is
18 the probate order? Here it is. I'm going to take
19 the probate order and these two matters. We're
20 going to get all this legal stuff on the record at
21 the same time, so I'm going to take a break, come
22 back and deal with this.
23 And, by the way, I did strike that Number 211,
24 didn't I?
25 MR. FUGATE: If you didn't, you said you were.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
46
1 MR. WEINBERG: You did.
2 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, I'm striking
3 Defendant's Exhibit 211. I never really quite
4 understood what that did, you strike it, it is still
5 part of the record. But in any event, it is
6 stricken.
7 I don't know how long it will take me. I guess
8 not more than ten minutes, but I want to read it,
9 see if --
10 MR. DANDAR: Ten minutes?
11 THE COURT: Yes, ten minutes.
12 (WHEREUPON, a recess is taken from 1:45 to 2:00 p.m.)
13 THE COURT: Okay. I have had a chance to read
14 the two orders that were given to me. One is the
15 order of Judge Beach on October 17 indicating that
16 the master would be appointed. Then there is an
17 order appointing special master.
18 And the order appointing special master just
19 basically says he's to determine what, if any,
20 material has not been produced in accordance with
21 prior discovery orders of the Court, allows him to
22 retain another person, and talks about his fees. So
23 it is obviously not clear.
24 I don't know what we're going to do here, as I
25 said. I suspect what Mr. Keane presumes, if it is
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
47
1 given to him, that anybody can come look at it.
2 That is not correct. And I assume that is what he
3 must have thought.
4 He should be turning over, obviously, anything
5 that is consistent with the order. And I don't even
6 know if he has -- I don't know what to do because I
7 do not want to get boxes of documents to go through.
8 I'm sure Mr. Keane, a fairly prominent lawyer in
9 town, has other things to do than go through LMT's
10 documents.
11 What I think we ought to do is the orders were
12 directed to LMT, and -- and Ms. Brooks,
13 specifically, as the -- I don't know what she was,
14 president?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: I believe the orders were
17 ultimately directed to her, or to LMT, through her.
18 So I think what we need to do is require Ms. Brooks
19 to comply with the orders of the Court. And, in
20 doing that, I assume this was on an order of the
21 Court to produce that she would have produced copies
22 to each side.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
24 THE COURT: So I think, rather than putting
25 this burden on Mr. Keane, at quite an expense to the
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
48
1 lawyers -- I mean, frankly, I think if I read the
2 one correctly, the Church is paying the cost of
3 Mr. Keane and the second person.
4 MR. MOXON: That's right.
5 THE COURT: And I imagine Mr. Keane is a fairly
6 expensive lawyer. What is he charging?
7 MR. MOXON: It has been quite a burden. I
8 think it is about $250 an hour.
9 THE COURT: It is probably less than what he
10 gets paid doing lawyer work.
11 MR. MOXON: The reason he was appointed, we
12 couldn't get compliance with the order. Judge Beach
13 said, "I'll have to bypass and appoint somebody."
14 THE COURT: I'll ask -- mostly because of the
15 time constraints here, I'm going to ask the Church,
16 if you will, since there are more of you, to produce
17 an order for me to sign directing that now that
18 Mr. Keane is in possession of these documents. It
19 ought to read something like this, that certainly
20 counsel should go through these documents and
21 counsel should determine what documents that he
22 feels are to be produced pursuant to the order but
23 that are otherwise privileged in some fashion, and
24 he should create a privilege log and turn those over
25 to the Court.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
49
1 Any other documents that he feels should be
2 produced pursuant to the order should be produced,
3 with a copy to each side.
4 MR. DANDAR: So counsel should be -- are you
5 talking about LMT's counsel?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 MR. DANDAR: I just would ask that counsel for
8 the plaintiffs, since I'm apparently the only one
9 that could have work product snuck on these hard
10 drives somehow, that I be allowed to look at it --
11 these documents first to see if there is --
12 THE COURT: I'll tell you what I will do. I
13 will state that any document that counsel for LMT
14 believes should be produced pursuant to the order,
15 that is either to or from Kennan Dandar, not be
16 released until it be released to the Court.
17 In other words, I don't want under a privilege
18 log or anything of the sort, but I just want it
19 produced to me first, I'll decide then on those
20 documents.
21 But anything else, he ought to bear the cost,
22 "he" meaning LMT, and really neither the Church nor
23 Mr. Dandar should bear the cost.
24 MR. MOXON: That would be great. It has been
25 quite a financial burden.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
50
1 THE COURT: Yes. And I'm sure this will please
2 Mr. Keane. He just now is a protector of these.
3 But there have been court orders issued, and I think
4 that if the latest order is the order of Judge Beach
5 which you have produced to me, that if you-all could
6 agree on who those people are, if you could help --
7 I mean, I'm sure that Mr. McGowan is somewhat in the
8 dark, too, as to who these witnesses are. If you
9 could agree on a list and -- and get together and
10 give that list to Mr. McGowan, then either
11 Ms. Brooks can wade through these things herself or
12 she can pay her lawyer to do it.
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, are you going to go by
14 Paragraph 7 of Judge Beach's order which defines --
15 THE COURT: If that is the latest order.
16 MR. DANDAR: All right.
17 MR. MOXON: I'll prepare a proposed order for
18 you.
19 THE COURT: But coordinate with Mr. Dandar.
20 MR. MOXON: I'll do that.
21 THE COURT: See if you can agree to an Exhibit
22 A. I mean, the list is expanded somewhat because of
23 the fact that we do have a counterclaim here. And
24 the counterclaim is part of -- you know, we just
25 can't ignore it. We're going to have to deal with
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
51
1 it again. I don't want these people to go through
2 this two times.
3 So, I mean, really, it ought to be witnesses in
4 connection with the counterclaim, which as I have
5 indicated, I believe, Mr. Dandar, which would
6 include you. But because of the fact that there
7 could be privileged information and work product,
8 that really doesn't pertain to the counterclaim.
9 Those documents, all of them, can be given to
10 me, and I'll go through those.
11 MR. MOXON: Completely understood, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: And the rest of them should be
13 produced, really, is how it normally is done. They
14 don't get filed with the Court.
15 MR. MOXON: Right.
16 THE COURT: Each side gets a copy.
17 MR. MOXON: I agree.
18 THE COURT: So I'll put the burden on
19 Mr. McGowan. I don't think he has any ax to grind
20 here. And so -- he's a lawyer, a fine lawyer. And
21 he can just -- you know, have his client do it, or
22 he can do it. But I do have the right for him to do
23 a privilege log if he feels there is something that
24 should be produced but he thinks it is otherwise
25 privileged. If he doesn't think it should be
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
52
1 produced, well, he doesn't have to give it to me,
2 just retain it, do whatever he wants to do, give it
3 back to Ms. Brooks.
4 MR. MOXON: We have a transcript here so --
5 THE COURT: I don't know if I have been clear.
6 Have I been clear enough?
7 MR. MOXON: It has been very clear.
8 THE COURT: So let's make sure that the special
9 master is given a copy of this order so he realizes
10 that he doesn't have to go through this, he can just
11 turn it all back over to Ms. Brooks.
12 MR. MOXON: All right.
13 THE COURT: Okay?
14 MR. DANDAR: All right.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Now, that takes care of
16 that.
17 Now, I did read this request by Mr. Pope.
18 Where is that? Oh, yes. I find this kind of
19 interesting because I can't imagine how, under any
20 theory -- under any theory at all that has been
21 proposed to me that in any way, shape or form the
22 estate would have any obligation to use these funds
23 to pay any judgment to the Church of Scientology.
24 Whether this is a loan to Mr. Dandar, to use as
25 he sees fit, whether this is a loan/donation to
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
53
1 Mr. Dandar to be used for the benefit of
2 expenditures to be repaid in the event of successful
3 lawsuit, otherwise to be considered a donation and
4 he doesn't get repaid, in other words, it is all
5 eaten up and there is nothing left and he doesn't
6 get -- the estate does not prevail and, therefore,
7 there is no money to pay him back, or if it is
8 strictly a loan/donation to the estate, the estate's
9 obligation would be just what Mr. Dandar's
10 obligation would be, which is to use the money for
11 the expenditures of the estate, to return the
12 balance, if any, to Mr. Minton, and in the event of
13 a successful conclusion by the estate, to return the
14 balance of his money. In the event of a
15 nonsuccessful hearing by the Court, he doesn't get
16 his money back under any scenario imaginable to me.
17 I cannot imagine how the Church of Scientology
18 would have any claim, ever, to this money, to
19 satisfy a judgment or otherwise. So why this has
20 been filed is beyond me, except that it appears to
21 me, quite frankly, that it's another attempt, even
22 though it is to be filed under seal, to somehow or
23 another to cause Mr. Dandar to reveal, discuss, how
24 he spent this money. And for what purpose?
25 However, this is not my case, Mr. Dandar. This
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
54
1 is Judge Greer's case. I guess Judge Greer has
2 this. And Judge Greer will have to decide this.
3 But I think Judge Greer should know that two other
4 judges have under consideration some determination
5 as to whether or not these were loans to Mr. Dandar
6 or whether they were loans to the estate. And both
7 of those judges -- both of them -- have been told by
8 the Second District, me through orders entered by
9 Judge Beach, and Judge Greer -- I'm sorry, Judge
10 Baird -- through an order entered by Judge Baird
11 that this information is not relevant for this case
12 and is not relevant for the case that Mr. Pope is
13 involved in.
14 And, consequently, how Mr. Pope can now go to
15 Judge Greer and suggest that he should treat it
16 otherwise is, frankly, beyond me. I think this is
17 another effort by someone to backdoor what it can't
18 get from me and can't get from Judge Baird because
19 of orders of the Second District. Not by the
20 lawyers in my courtroom. Therefore, it is not for
21 me to speak to them.
22 And I do recognize the fact the Church of
23 Scientology is a large organization with
24 different -- but both of these are the Church of
25 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc. That is
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
55
1 the defendant in my suit. It is the plaintiff in
2 Judge Baird's suit. And, therefore, it is the
3 plaintiff that Mr. Pope is representing in his
4 efforts to get this information.
5 He is not my lawyer and he's not in my case.
6 So, therefore, I cannot fuss at him, which I
7 absolutely would do if he were in my presence. I do
8 not think he should do this. I think, in light of
9 the Second District's order, in light of the fact
10 this very issue is pending, believe me, on the 26th
11 day of a hearing, and that is one of the issues, it
12 is pending before Judge Baird on an issue that he's
13 taken three days and is to be renewed for probably
14 another 15 or 20 days, that the idea that they would
15 now go to a third judge and try to do -- I don't
16 know if he's doing it on his own or if he's doing it
17 at the direction of the Church.
18 If he is, I have entered an order telling the
19 Church in this case with the defendant what I think
20 of that effort. So -- I think this is
21 inappropriate.
22 But, Mr. Pope isn't here. Therefore, I don't
23 know whether -- I'm not going to ask the Church to
24 tell me in another case whether they directed this
25 or not. So I wish it hadn't been done.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
56
1 I think you should tell Judge Greer,
2 Mr. Dandar, that there are two judges that have
3 spent a great deal of time trying to decide whether
4 this money is the estate's money or whether it is a
5 loan to Mr. Dandar.
6 A lot of the information discussed in here is
7 not for this Court, it is for the Bar. My order
8 will be perfectly clear on what I think it was. And
9 Judge Baird's, I'm sure, will be the same. To try
10 to get another judge to require a lawyer to make an
11 accounting, when this issue is pending, is anything
12 but clear to me. And I'm sure it is anything but
13 clear to Judge Baird.
14 I think it is a misuse of Judge Greer. But
15 Judge Greer will have to decide that for himself.
16 Please take all three orders from the Second
17 District. Please take my order. And as far as I'm
18 concerned, you may take a copy of this transcript to
19 Judge Greer. The decision is his. I don't like it.
20 And -- but that is neither -- it is just simply not
21 my business.
22 But I am taking note. Every time -- and every
23 time this is done -- and I have ordered that the
24 Church not do this -- I'm taking note of the fact
25 this is the same church that is present in my
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
57
1 courtroom. And I can't help it. It is just kind of
2 like -- they're just going to keep at it.
3 But as far as I'm concerned, it simply shows
4 the Second District is correct, that they were
5 correct in what was going on, and I entered an order
6 stating if it doesn't stop, that I'm going to find,
7 as a matter of fact, it is correct.
8 And, frankly, I think that would be a contempt
9 of the Second District. And if I think it is
10 contemptuous of my order, I will so find. It is
11 just in another court right now.
12 I don't like it. I wish you men would stop --
13 I'm not saying you men; I'm talking Mr. Shaw, your
14 church. I wish you would stop. There is no way in
15 the world the Church will get their hands on this
16 money. Not one way in the world. I don't care what
17 I find, I don't care what I decide, the Church will
18 never be able to get to this money. This money
19 either belongs to the estate or Mr. Minton. It
20 never belongs to the Church under any theory at all.
21 Therefore, as I said, if I haven't made it
22 clear, I'm going to make it clear. This is another
23 attempt to find out how much money Mr. Dandar has
24 left to litigate this case. That is improper. The
25 Second District said it's improper. I said it's
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
58
1 improper. And apparently you continue and will
2 continue. And I don't like it.
3 Now, I made myself clear. Call your next
4 witness.
5 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff calls Brian Haney.
6 THE BAILIFF: If you'll stand right here, face
7 the clerk, raise your right hand to receive the
8 oath.
9 (Oath administered to the witness by the
10 Court.)
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 THE COURT: You may lower your hand.
13 MR. DANDAR: Present is Mr. Haney's lawyer,
14 Dick Rogovin.
15 THE COURT: The bailiff said you want to sit
16 over there?
17 MR. ROGOVIN: May I?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 What is your name, sir?
20 MR. ROGOVIN: Richard Rogovin.
21 THE COURT: Do you have a card? Just in
22 case --
23 MR. ROGOVIN: If you are ever in Ohio --
24 THE COURT: -- if I need a lawyer in Ohio, I'll
25 know who to call. Thank you, sir, for being here.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
59
1 You may proceed.
2 ______________________________________
3 HUGH BRIAN HANEY,
4 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
5 and testified as follows:
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Please state your name.
9 A Hugh Brian Haney.
10 Q Spell your last name.
11 A H-A-N-E-Y.
12 Q You are a resident of the state of Ohio?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How long have you lived in Ohio?
15 A Since 1979.
16 Q Were you ever a member of the Church of
17 Scientology?
18 A Yes, I was.
19 Q And a public? Or staff? Or Sea Org?
20 A I was a public member, then a staff member.
21 Q When did you first become --
22 THE COURT: Does that mean a Sea Org member?
23 THE WITNESS: No, I was a staff member at a
24 Class Five organization, which is in between being
25 public and a Sea Org member, your Honor.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
60
1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q When did you first become a public member?
4 A In July of 1991.
5 Q You became a staff non-Sea Org member of which
6 organization?
7 A It was the Class Five org in Columbus, Ohio.
8 Q What was your post or position there?
9 A It's -- the acronym is D/ED. It's deputy
10 executive director. It's the second in command to the
11 person who runs the organization. So I'm like a
12 vice-president, you would say.
13 Q You sound like you have a frog --
14 A Yes, I'm trying to -- excuse me.
15 THE COURT: Do you have water there? That is
16 good water, too. Well, sort of. It came out of the
17 water fountain.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q And what is the extent of your formal education?
21 A I completed high school in 1978. And that is it.
22 Q And when you joined the Church of Scientology,
23 were you self-employed?
24 A Yes. I had my own company. It was called Great
25 American Fun, where I manufactured and was a distributor of
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
61
1 toys. It was a nationwide company. We sold in about 33
2 countries around the world.
3 Q Do you have offices in Hong Kong?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that where the toys are made?
6 A The toys were made all over southeast Asia. But
7 as time passed, they eventually all became made in China as
8 the migration of cheap labor moved around southeast Asia.
9 Q Okay. Now, when did you cease being a member of
10 the Church of Scientology?
11 A In February of 1994.
12 Q While you were in Scientology, public or staff
13 member, the writings of Mr. Hubbard, was that called the
14 tech?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And was the tech ever referred to, in your
17 presence or within your knowledge, as scripture?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ever have -- did you ever hear --
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, my head was rattling
21 somewhere else other than right here where it needs
22 to be.
23 Would you tell me again what -- did you ask him
24 what his position was?
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. He was deputy executive
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
62
1 director of the Columbus, Ohio org, which is a Class
2 Five org. So he was not Sea Org. He was --
3 THE COURT: Deputy executive director of the
4 Ohio --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the Columbus, Ohio org.
6 There is approximately 26 Class Five orgs in the
7 United States. Then there are two advanced
8 organizations, Flag and the one in Los Angeles.
9 THE COURT: All right, thank you. That is the
10 one -- those are the ones I have been used to
11 dealing with. This is just a church in a state?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes, in a city.
13 THE COURT: In the city?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: And you indicated deputy executive
16 director as far as in that org?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Is it like vice-president, second
19 from the top?
20 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Try not to go "uh-huh" or "um-hum."
24 A Right.
25 Q In your experience within Scientology, did you
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
63
1 ever hear anyone called an ecclesiastical leader?
2 A No.
3 Q In your experience with Scientology, who was the
4 overall worldwide person in charge of all of Scientology?
5 A David Miscavige.
6 Q And what particular position does he have that --
7 where he derives that power from or that authority?
8 A He was the head of the Sea Org.
9 Q Are you sure --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for the record,
11 I want to -- particularly with this witness, my
12 objection is Rule 406, First Amendment. He's now
13 being asked questions about Mr. Miscavige derived
14 from his -- he was in the organization for two and a
15 half years.
16 THE COURT: I think that is correct. And --
17 MR. DANDAR: Well --
18 THE COURT: All those objections are preserved,
19 as they have been.
20 But don't get too far afield here because this
21 man does have somewhat limited knowledge. And we've
22 heard from other folks who really are giving us much
23 the same information, so -- so we don't -- just go
24 to whatever it is --
25 MR. DANDAR: I will.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
64
1 THE COURT: -- he has you think is relevant to
2 this hearing, not repetitious.
3 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
6 A No.
7 Q How would you classify yourself in reference to
8 Scientology?
9 A I have been a critic of Scientology for some time.
10 Probably five years.
11 Q Have you picketed?
12 A No.
13 Q There was -- do you know Stacy Brooks?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How did you know Stacy Brooks?
16 A I communicated with her by E-Mail, then I met her
17 for the first time in May of 1998.
18 Q Where at?
19 A In person the first time I met her was in Denver,
20 Colorado. The organization FACTNet had a board meeting to
21 discuss their operation. And I went out there for that.
22 Q Did you become a member of FACTNet?
23 A No.
24 Q You just went out for a meeting?
25 A Yes. I went to meet other people who were
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
65
1 involved in criticizing Scientology and trying to help the
2 people who had been victimized by it.
3 Q And did you meet Bob Minton?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When and where?
6 A At the same place.
7 THE COURT: And what year was this, sir?
8 THE WITNESS: In May of 1998, your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q And when is the first time you met me?
12 A December 1999.
13 Q Where at?
14 A The first day of Gerry Armstrong's deposition.
15 Q And at that period of time, you were assisting me
16 as a consultant on Scientology, correct?
17 A That is correct.
18 Q And in December of '99 did you attend any Lisa
19 McPherson memorial vigil?
20 A No. I did not.
21 Q Okay. Have you, in Scientology, attested to the
22 state of clear?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Have you ever heard of the introspection rundown
25 while you were a Scientologist?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
66
1 A No. It wasn't public.
2 Q What do you mean, it wasn't public?
3 A It wasn't something you could access as a staff
4 member at a Class Five org.
5 THE COURT: What was that?
6 MR. DANDAR: Someone's radio went off by
7 mistake.
8 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: On that side of the room.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q In Scientology, can you tell the Court if you ever
12 heard of something called a success story?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What is it?
15 A A success story is something anytime someone
16 finishes a process, be it auditing or training or even an
17 ethics action, you are required to write a success story in
18 order to complete that process.
19 Q Okay. And as a staff member of the Church of
20 Scientology, did you ever learn about whether or not a
21 Scientologist could lie?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How?
24 A Well, the two most common things --
25 THE COURT: Well, that was -- what you asked is
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
67
1 did you ever learn. He said yes. What did he
2 learn? I mean, I guess that is the next question.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q What did you learn about that?
6 A There were two aspects at our org that were
7 commonly used where it was perfectly acceptable not to tell
8 the truth to someone or to lie to them outright.
9 One is the common phrase called the greatest good
10 for the greatest number, which is an abbreviation of the
11 greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics.
12 And what it basically meant was you could lie to
13 an individual in order for a greater good to help the
14 organization or the group.
15 So we would commonly misrepresent or outright lie
16 to the public. For instance, in order to get them to pay
17 money or -- or in some other way benefit the organization.
18 The second one was a term -- there are all these
19 terms that are unique to Scientology. Some of them are
20 listed in the administration dictionary. Some of them are
21 used otherwise.
22 One is called the acceptable truth. An acceptable
23 truth is where you tell somebody something in order to
24 convince them of your point. And it doesn't necessarily
25 have to be true.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
68
1 Q Why did you leave the Church of Scientology?
2 A Mmm, basically because of that issue about telling
3 the truth. There were many instances where I was requested,
4 even required in my job, to lie to people. And I didn't
5 want to do that.
6 Q Let's go to Bob Minton. How well do you know --
7 THE COURT: Could you give me -- I'm sorry, I
8 would just like to know. I heard both of these
9 things before, greatest good for the greatest
10 number, and acceptable truth from other people.
11 I have never really heard anybody explain --
12 for example, can you give me an example?
13 THE WITNESS: Sure. I'll give you one example
14 of each.
15 In the greatest good for the greatest number,
16 one of the things that was quite common, people
17 would come into the organization and want to get a
18 certain kind of auditing. Let's say they wanted an
19 auditing about their marriage.
20 We, as staff members, would indicate to them
21 that they would be able to get that kind of auditing
22 if they paid a certain amount of money, say $2,500.
23 Once they paid the $2,500 to the organization, they
24 wouldn't -- we knew they weren't going to get that
25 auditing.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
69
1 They would then be routed to ethics. And at
2 ethics they would find out that there were other
3 steps they would have to do before they could take
4 this auditing. And, of course, those other steps
5 had to be paid for before they could take that
6 auditing.
7 So having just taken their $2,500, they might
8 be sent to the ethics officers, who will tell them,
9 "You need to do A, B and C before you take that
10 auditing. And that will cost another $2,500."
11 So now the person will have to pay an
12 additional $2,500 before they could even start the
13 preliminary steps to take the auditing. The thing
14 deceptive about it, all of the people in the
15 organization knew the person that paid the money
16 would not be able to take the auditing we told them.
17 THE COURT: What is that an example of? Is
18 that an example of a acceptable truth?
19 THE WITNESS: No. Greatest good for the
20 greatest number. We needed revenue to increase
21 statistics for the organization. The most was
22 called GI, gross income. That is what 80 or
23 90 percent of the activities were focused around,
24 increasing the gross income every week.
25 THE COURT: Okay, now, tell me what you would
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
70
1 call -- or if you could give me an example I might
2 understand -- and I did understand that, by the way.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 THE COURT: On my 26th day of these hearings, I
5 know a lot about what -- you know, this is not
6 totally foreign to me.
7 Give me an example of an acceptable truth.
8 THE WITNESS: The one I was commonly involved
9 in was because I had business experience with banks
10 in my company, many of the people were unable to pay
11 cash for the auditing and training, it was
12 expensive, it costs thousands of dollars for each
13 individual course.
14 So my senior, who was executive director, said,
15 "Well, can you help them get loans?"
16 Once I said I had expertise at getting loans
17 from banks, well, what would happen is they would go
18 to the loan officer that I knew at a particular
19 bank, and I would have filled out all of the loan
20 forms for them saying that they wanted to either get
21 management training, build an addition onto their
22 house, get money to run their own business, but, in
23 fact, all of that money was money to come to
24 Scientology.
25 THE COURT: For auditing?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
71
1 THE WITNESS: For auditing or training. Yes.
2 THE COURT: But that would be considered an
3 acceptable truth?
4 THE WITNESS: Sure, because they could use the
5 money to build an addition on their house. Or they
6 could take management training. But they weren't
7 going to. So it was within the realm of possibility
8 but it wasn't true.
9 THE COURT: Could that example that you just
10 gave me also be the greatest good for the greatest
11 number?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could. They're not
13 distinct in all cases --
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: -- one from the other.
16 THE COURT: So, in other words, an example you
17 could give could pertain to both of those things?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, they could, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Thank you.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q All right. Do you still own the Great American
22 Fun Company?
23 A Yes, I do.
24 Q And have you been involved in any other business
25 ventures?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
72
1 A Yes. I have several other businesses.
2 Q Such as?
3 A Mmm, I own real estate. Manufacture houses in
4 Mexico. Different things like that. Charitable
5 organizations. Foundations.
6 Q Mr. Haney, I subpoenaed you to be here today.
7 Correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And, in fact, I subpoenaed you in the presence of
10 your attorney when I was giving you a complimentary ride to
11 the airport one day?
12 A That is correct.
13 Q And you were down here for what business in
14 Clearwater/St. Pete?
15 A I had a lawsuit with another fellow over a
16 misappropriation of some funds. And he wanted to meet
17 regarding a settlement.
18 Q Was I involved in any of that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q How?
21 A Mmm, you were the other person who gave this guy
22 money. And he took both of our moneys.
23 Q Okay. Now, did you know I was going to subpoena
24 you?
25 A No.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
73
1 Q Bob Minton -- did Bob Minton -- after you met him,
2 did there come a time when Bob Minton asked you to handle
3 some money or bring some money into the country?
4 A Well, the first time he asked me for money was for
5 FACTNet. And I gave them, the first time, $100,000 for
6 FACTNet, which was in I believe July of '98. Then
7 subsequently, in October of '98, I gave them another
8 $20,000.
9 And I had given them that money to help some
10 people. But, in fact, that money was used for something
11 else. I believe it was used for litigation expenses, which
12 I specifically said I didn't want. So I was not happy with
13 that.
14 Q Okay.
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say Mr. Minton
16 asked you for this money?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks
18 both. They were both present for that.
19 THE COURT: And they said that they were
20 connected in some fashion with FACTNet and would you
21 make a contribution?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were running FACTNet
23 at that point.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: And they asked me.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
74
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What year was this?
3 A 1998.
4 Q Okay. And what about after that? Any other money
5 conversations?
6 A Later that month, Bob and Stacy came to Ohio. I
7 had talked to a man who had worked with Mothers Against
8 Drunk Driving and some other organizations. And I had
9 talked about trying to put a curriculum in the schools
10 dealing with thought reform, mind control on cults that
11 would be offered in secondary schools.
12 And this guy had given me an outline. And I
13 wanted to see if Bob would help fund this. I was willing to
14 help fund it if he would help fund it, because I always
15 wanted to be involved in things that were either
16 preventative, that helped people, not just things that were
17 antagonistic toward Scientology.
18 So he came to the meeting for that purpose. And
19 at that time, I found out that he and Stacy were having an
20 affair. And the next day, when he left he gave me a check
21 for $10,000 and told me to give it to -- to get it cashed
22 and give it to Stacy -- it was made out to my name -- I told
23 him I didn't want to do that, because his wife called me the
24 day before, asking me to somehow prevent him and Stacy from
25 having this affair. And I told her that I didn't agree with
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
75
1 it and I couldn't do that. And so I didn't want to be party
2 to anything having to do with this.
3 He said, "Well, I have already made out the check
4 and I want you to do it. I don't want my wife to know about
5 it."
6 Q Okay. Were there any other times, after that?
7 A Yes. In December of 1999, Stacy and Bob and I had
8 dinner at the Castaway Restaurant.
9 And he asked me to bring in a substantial amount
10 of money and put it into both the Lisa McPherson Trust and
11 to pay some of the expenses for the wrongful death case.
12 And he indicated to me at that time that
13 Scientology was trying to discover his personal finances
14 through motions being filed in the case, and that I should
15 bring the money in through my Hong Kong company. And that
16 if I did that, I could do it anonymously so it wouldn't be
17 discovered.
18 I told him that I didn't think that was possible.
19 I really thought that Scientology's investigative techniques
20 were good enough, no matter where the money was brought
21 from, it would be discovered.
22 He said he was planning to bring the money in from
23 overseas, and he believed he could do that and not have them
24 discover it.
25 Q Was I at this dinner?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
76
1 A No.
2 Q Who was at the dinner?
3 A Just the three of us, Stacy, Bob and I.
4 Q And is that Castaways on the Courtney Campbell
5 Causeway?
6 A It is the one in the middle of the bridge thing
7 that goes across the bay.
8 Q From Tampa to Clearwater?
9 A Yes. Uh-huh.
10 Q All right. And the money he wanted you to bring
11 in, was that your money, or his money?
12 A It was my money. He wanted -- he actually said,
13 "You're the only other deep pocket in this situation,"
14 meaning the group of critics, and he thought I should put in
15 a million dollars was the figure.
16 Q To -- to where?
17 A To the trust. But it was to be used for the
18 wrongful death case and to support the trust.
19 THE COURT: I'm confused now. Did he -- I
20 thought you said he -- Mr. Minton asked you to bring
21 in his money through your Hong Kong company. And
22 then, after that, you said he was asking you to
23 bring in your money.
24 So was it both? Or one? Or the other?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, he didn't specifically say
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
77
1 for me to bring his money. He said he was going to
2 bring his money in anonymously through another
3 country. He didn't specify which one. And he
4 suggested I do the same thing.
5 THE COURT: So he was suggesting you ought to
6 make a big donation, and that you could bring it in
7 through your Hong Kong company, and Scientology
8 wouldn't know about it?
9 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And so you didn't do that?
13 A I did not do that. No.
14 Q Any other discussions with Bob Minton about money?
15 A Mmm, there were several times that I was in his
16 presence when he talked about the stress of -- of -- of all
17 the harassment he was undergoing and all of the money that
18 was being expended.
19 And I remember one time he said that his wife had
20 moved $26 million out of their bank account in London,
21 England, that it was a joint account and she moved all of
22 the money out without his knowledge. And that was a very
23 serious issue for him.
24 And he talked about the money that he had spent on
25 the case. You know, he was very -- Mmm, he -- I would say
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
78
1 he boasted about all of the money he had given for the case.
2 Q When was this?
3 A Continuously, pretty much from -- at least early
4 '99, on, all of the time I talked to him.
5 THE COURT: It would distress me if somebody
6 moved $26 million out of an account of mine.
7 MR. WEINBERG: $26,000.
8 THE COURT: $26,000 would bother me quite a
9 bit. Actually, $2,600.
10 How much did he -- just out of curiosity, since
11 it may have some bearing, I'm not really asking a
12 serious question, about how much did Mr. Minton say
13 he had spent to fund this litigation? How much did
14 he tell you he had spent?
15 THE WITNESS: I fell out of his favor, I would
16 say, after mid-2000. But the last time I talked to
17 him, after I had the settlement in this other case,
18 he said $2 million.
19 THE COURT: And when would that have been?
20 THE WITNESS: Somewhere between January and May
21 of 2000.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q So between January and May of 2000, Mr. Minton, as
25 you said, boasted about giving the case $2 million?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
79
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you join the board of directors of the Lisa
3 McPherson Trust?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Did you hold an office?
6 A I think I was secretary for a while. Yes.
7 Q Why did you join?
8 A Mmm, by that time the -- I would say the entire
9 critic movement had sort of been shanghaied by Bob. It was
10 a matter of if you didn't -- if you weren't in the group of
11 people who were Bob's people, there was no other group to be
12 in.
13 So I really thought that the only way to effect
14 any reform of that group was to be in it. There was nothing
15 to be done outside of it.
16 Q So you wanted to reform the critic group?
17 A Yes. I believed that the -- the activities of the
18 group of critics had changed dramatically from a group that
19 was trying to help people who had been hurt by Scientology,
20 to a group that was basically just antagonizing Scientology
21 through picketing and other things. And I felt that was a
22 useless thing to do.
23 Q What was the Lisa McPherson Trust set up to do?
24 A To help people who had been hurt by Scientology.
25 That was certainly the mission statement of what all of us
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
80
1 were in agreement on when we had the board meeting.
2 Q Did you help write that mission statement?
3 A Yes, I did. I even -- I drafted it at the end of
4 the board meeting, then everybody agreed on it.
5 Q And was there any purpose of the Lisa McPherson
6 Trust that had anything to do with the wrongful death case?
7 A No.
8 Q Did -- while you were involved in the Lisa
9 McPherson Trust, did Bob Minton organize pickets?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did Bob Minton organize pickets in order to infect
12 the jury pool of people who may be called as jurors in the
13 Lisa McPherson case?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the -- to the
15 form. Is he asking if he had a conversation like
16 that? He can't get into his head.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did you ever hear Mr. Minton say, "Let's picket so
20 we can infect the jury pool on the Lisa McPherson case"?
21 A I don't think that is at all what he was up to.
22 He had a very specific thing in mind.
23 Q All right. What was that?
24 A He enjoyed coming into confrontation with the
25 management of Scientology, specifically with the higher-up
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
81
1 people. The higher up the better. He liked to engage in,
2 you know, aggressive banter and, you know, that kind of
3 stuff. He enjoyed the confrontation.
4 Q Did he ever tell you that he was out to destroy
5 the Church of Scientology?
6 A No. Not specifically.
7 Q Okay. Well, what do you mean, not specifically?
8 A Well, he just -- he had an idea that he could
9 harass them into changing their behavior. That was his
10 idea. And I thought that was a bad idea.
11 Q What behavior did he want to change?
12 A He wanted them to not use mind control techniques
13 on their -- on their members. And to not have secrets that
14 the people couldn't discover when they were members. In
15 other words, that it was a transparent organization like
16 churches usually are where you know what the organization is
17 about when you join it. That you can discover its motives,
18 its aims, its activities, as a member. Scientology, you
19 can't do that as a regular member.
20 Q While you were a Scientologist did you ever learn
21 what the goals of Scientology were in reference to the City
22 of Clearwater?
23 A Mmm --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
25 Competence. How would he -- I mean, based on what?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
82
1 THE COURT: That is true. And I think you had
2 that from other members.
3 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Fine.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Now, did you observe Mr. Minton's intereaction --
6 or interaction, excuse me, with the litigation of the Lisa
7 McPherson wrongful death case?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Can you describe it for us?
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What was your question?
11 MR. DANDAR: What was Mr. Minton's interaction
12 with the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Could we like date this and give
14 some sense of how many -- you know, whether -- you
15 know, what the basis for this is?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: He only mentioned a couple of
18 meetings.
19 THE COURT: When?
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q How long did you know -- how long did you know
22 Mr. Minton when he was involved with the Lisa McPherson
23 case?
24 A Mmm, I would say that I was an acquaintance of his
25 from July of '98 until about June or July of 2000. So about
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
83
1 two years.
2 Q And during that time, did you observe or do you
3 have knowledge of Mr. Minton's having any interaction in the
4 wrongful death case?
5 A Well, I know that from December of '99 on, I went
6 with you to depositions and attended meetings about the
7 strategy in the case and stuff. And I know that Bob didn't
8 attend any of those. I even asked him to at times. And he
9 didn't.
10 Q You asked him to come to a meeting on strategy?
11 A I asked him to come to the depositions in Texas,
12 because of the specific things I wanted to discuss with
13 Dell, yeah. And he just said he wasn't going to go.
14 Q Did Bob express to you any interest in the Lisa
15 McPherson case?
16 A No.
17 Q Did Bob Minton exert any control whatsoever over
18 the Lisa McPherson case?
19 A No. Nothing that I observed.
20 THE COURT: Did he appear to be a person who
21 was funding -- helping to fund the litigation but
22 had no other real interest?
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And that was the only
24 thing he ever talked about. Like on the Internet he
25 just would always talk about, I have to give more
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
84
1 money, or, Dandar wants more money, that kind of
2 thing.
3 And he would often talk about, "Well, if I'm
4 spending this much, then Scientology is spending ten
5 times that" or whatever. That was his point of
6 pride, so to speak.
7 But other than that, he didn't have an
8 interest. Even when I tried to tell him stuff, he
9 just didn't have any interest.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Did you and I have any discussions on Mr. Minton's
13 desire in the actual formation of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
14 A Oh, yes.
15 Q Can you tell the Court what that is?
16 A When I heard, through Bob, when he asked me to be
17 on the board of directors and explained that he was forming
18 the trust, I think I called you that day or the next day and
19 I asked you why you were allowing him to use the name.
20 And you said that you had told him not to but he
21 said he was going to do it anyway, and there was nothing you
22 could do about it.
23 Q And did Dell Liebreich, if you know, join the
24 board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
25 A Yes, she did.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
85
1 Q And do you have any information as to why she did
2 that?
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is -- objection, hearsay.
4 A She --
5 MR. WEINBERG: This is all hearsay, all of it,
6 including his conversations with Mr. Dandar. But
7 now he's asking for information concerning Dell
8 Liebreich.
9 THE COURT: Well, how does he have any
10 information about Dell Liebreich?
11 MR. DANDAR: I don't know.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Did Dell have any conversations with you about why
14 she was on the board?
15 A She asked me what I thought of the trust, about
16 its purpose.
17 THE COURT: If it is different from what
18 anything Mr. Minton said, I'm going to allow it for
19 impeachment. I don't know what it is, so -- it is
20 hard to rule in advance, so I'm going to allow it.
21 MR. DANDAR: I don't know what it is, either,
22 so I'm just asking out of the blue.
23 THE COURT: Well, it is hearsay unless it is
24 something contrary to what Mr. Minton -- well, go on
25 ahead.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
86
1 MR. DANDAR: I'll try to see if it is.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Did she tell you --
4 THE COURT: It is dangerous, however,
5 Mr. Dandar. This is a point of lawyering.
6 MR. DANDAR: I know it is. I know it is.
7 THE COURT: But it is your business.
8 MR. DANDAR: I know it.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q What did she tell you, if she did, about why she
11 was on the board?
12 A She said she was concerned about the picketing and
13 the antagonistic behavior toward Scientology. And she
14 wanted to know if this was just going to be a -- an outlet
15 for that, or if they were really going to do things to help
16 people.
17 MR. WEINBERG: All right, I move to strike
18 this. This is just pure unmitigated hearsay. If
19 Ms. Liebreich wants to testify to those feelings,
20 she ought to come and testify.
21 MR. DANDAR: This is contrary to Mr. Minton's
22 testimony.
23 MR. WEINBERG: You know what, I'm sorry, your
24 Honor, I don't think this is contrary to anything.
25 And now he's trying to get in Ms. Liebreich's
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
87
1 feelings about the LMT --
2 THE COURT: If, in fact, it is contrary to
3 anything Mr. Minton said, I'll allow it for
4 impeachment. If it is not, it will be hearsay and I
5 will not consider it.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I don't know. I'm sorry,
8 Mr. Minton testified so long ago, I don't know.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I know. I guess my only -- my
10 real objection is that I just don't think it is
11 appropriate for Mr. Dandar to bring this witness on
12 to testify -- try to put in Ms. Liebreich's
13 testimony.
14 THE COURT: I agree. But as I said, Mr. Minton
15 had some things to say about Ms. Liebreich. And
16 if -- if it is contrary to that, then I'll let it
17 in.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Any other conversations with Dell Liebreich about
20 the Lisa McPherson Trust?
21 A The only -- the only serious discussion I had with
22 her was -- was whenever those depositions were in Texas
23 where she and Ann and the uncle were deposed that first
24 time.
25 Q And were you there at those depositions?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
88
1 A Yes. I stayed those three days.
2 Q Did you have any conversations with Dell and the
3 family members about the case?
4 A I had discussions with them about the money,
5 because I called you before I went there and asked if it was
6 okay to talk to them about what the final disposition of any
7 money received would be. And you said that was all right.
8 So I went there with that purpose in mind.
9 Q And were you a party to any conversation where the
10 family talked about what they wanted to do if they had a
11 recovery in this case?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And what did you hear?
14 A Mmm, well, I suggested to the three of them that
15 it was not -- that Lisa's death was not intended to make
16 them rich, and wondered if they had any other plans if they
17 received that money in the case.
18 And they said yes, they had talked about it and
19 they thought they would give the money to groups that would
20 help people who had been victimized by cults, or they might
21 even set up something in her name. But it was just an idea
22 about how to use the money. It wasn't, you know, a plan or
23 a firm thing. It was just an idea.
24 Q Do you know if that idea was expressed to
25 Mr. Minton?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
89
1 A Yes. In December that year when we were having
2 the big dinner at the steak house, I don't remember the name
3 of the steak house, but there were like 30 people at the
4 table. And Bob asked Dell directly. And she repeated the
5 same thing she told me in Texas. So it was consistent.
6 Q At that dinner did you hear Dell Liebreich tell
7 Bob Minton that she wanted to give him or his
8 organization -- which the trust was already formed at that
9 time -- any bulk or substantial amount of the money if
10 recovered in this case?
11 A No. What happened was I suggested to you that Bob
12 Minton do something like that. But she didn't say anything
13 like that at all.
14 Q When did you suggest that to me?
15 A Right there at the dinner.
16 Q Was that in front of Bob Minton?
17 A No.
18 Q That was just a private conversation between you
19 and I?
20 A Yes.
21 Q So you predicted Bob Minton would do what?
22 A Would claim that money belonged to him. That in
23 return for funding the wrongful death case, that he or the
24 trust would be entitled to that money.
25 Q Why did you predict that? I mean, what made you
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
90
1 even think that?
2 A I had some experience with Mr. Minton and his
3 behavior by that time.
4 Q In what way?
5 A He's what I called assumptive and presumptive. He
6 would -- you know, he would take over a situation and
7 commandeer it and think that it was his right to just be in
8 charge or take over things that I don't think were within
9 his -- you know, his domain.
10 Q Did you ever hear, later on, Bob Minton claim that
11 he had some agreement with me or the estate to get the bulk
12 or substantial amount of any recovery in this case?
13 A I read a thing on the Internet where he said it in
14 a radio program, that -- that -- first he said that the
15 money was supposed to go to an anti-cult organization.
16 And then at some point later he said it was
17 supposed to go to the LMT. And that is when I called you
18 and I said, "See," so, yes -- "it happened."
19 Q And what -- did I respond to when you called and
20 said, "See, it happened"?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Now Mr. Dandar is asking for
22 Mr. Haney to apparently parrot self-serving
23 statements that Mr. Dandar made which is hearsay.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
91
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you ever talk to Bob Minton about that --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- Internet posting?
5 A Yes. About that situation, yes.
6 Q What did he say?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we date this conversation,
8 please?
9 MR. DANDAR: We will.
10 A He kind of -- he --
11 THE COURT: Well, do it now.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q When did you talk to Bob Minton about his
15 postings?
16 THE COURT: Approximately, if you can give us
17 an approximate year, month.
18 THE WITNESS: End of January of 2000.
19 THE COURT: This would have been after he had
20 been on the radio proclaiming that he had the deal?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q What did he say?
24 A He kind of laughed and he said, "I guess I got a
25 little carried away, huh?" Then he had a big smile.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
92
1 Q What impression were you left with after that
2 conversation?
3 A That he had done what I thought he would do.
4 Just, you know, take it over. Because he just figured no
5 one would oppose him. He figured he had the power to get
6 what he wanted because you were dependent upon him to
7 finance the case. Most of the other people were dependent
8 upon him for their livelihood. The same way he got them to
9 picket. It is all the same thing.
10 Q Did he ever tell you that rather than just being
11 carried away, did he ever tell you that he actually had an
12 agreement with the estate or with me for the estate to give
13 him any recovery out of the wrongful death case?
14 A No. And, in fact, I called you and asked you, and
15 I called Dell and asked her after that, you know.
16 And you both confirmed it wasn't true. I just
17 wanted to make sure that there wasn't something going on I
18 didn't know about.
19 Q Did you attend any meetings --
20 MR. DANDAR: Since this is already part of our
21 stipulation of my waiver I'm going to ask him
22 concerning meetings concerning David Miscavige.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what?
24 MR. DANDAR: Since this is part of the
25 stipulation between the parties and with the Court's
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
93
1 stipulation, I believe, as well, I'm going to ask
2 him about meetings that he came as a trial
3 consultant, a consultant to me, to discuss adding on
4 parties to the case.
5 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. Without waiving
6 anything, just waiving as to the conversation that
7 we talked about here?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did you attend any meetings, as my consultant, to
12 talk about adding on parties to the wrongful death case?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How many?
15 A Mmm, four or five.
16 Q And do you recall when those were?
17 A Mmm, not specifically, no. I mean, it was
18 sometime in 1999.
19 Q Okay. And one of those parties -- or did you
20 attend -- was it more than one person we talked about?
21 Maybe that might help.
22 A Well, the main thing was about adding David
23 Miscavige.
24 Q Okay. And did Bob Minton attend any of those
25 meetings?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
94
1 A No.
2 Q Who attended those meetings?
3 A You, me, Jesse, Stacy and sometimes Michael Garko.
4 And I think Thom Haverty was there once.
5 Q And out of all those people, who was the proponent
6 of that idea?
7 A It was Stacy's idea. And Jesse supported it.
8 Q Okay. And what did I -- if you remember, did I
9 respond to that idea?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I mean, this is all
11 very interesting. But, again, this is just
12 Mr. Dandar's hearsay statements, self-serving or
13 whatever. I mean --
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, this is quite different.
15 THE COURT: I think --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't remember -- well, let me
17 just say this. I don't remember any questions or
18 any testimony from Mr. Dandar about any meetings
19 with Mr. Haney or that Mr. Haney was present at.
20 In fact, specifically we were not allowed to
21 ask any questions about who Mr. Dandar met with
22 because he took the work product privilege, other
23 than the one meeting that obviously Mr. Minton was
24 at where there was no work product privilege.
25 So now he's eliciting testimony, statements, as
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
95
1 to what he would have said at apparently privileged
2 meetings.
3 THE COURT: I guess what he's doing is waiving
4 the privilege as to these meetings, which is what he
5 just said.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Which I suppose we reserve the
7 right to inquire of Mr. Dandar before this hearing
8 is out then, because he took the privilege as to
9 this --
10 THE COURT: That is true.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q What did I say in response to these -- to
14 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince?
15 A Mmm, I can just characterize what each person did
16 at the meetings.
17 It was Stacy's idea. Jesse supported it. They
18 were both very emphatic. Michael Garko opposed it.
19 And you just kept asking Bob and Stacy, "Are you
20 sure you have enough direct evidence to show that he was in
21 charge?" And you just kept asking them over and over again,
22 because you had signed some agreement based upon -- you told
23 me -- advice you got from Dan Leipold at the beginning of
24 the case about not adding parties. And I don't really know
25 the specifics of it.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
96
1 Q You just said Bob and Stacy. Did you mean to say
2 Bob? Was Bob there?
3 A I'm sorry, Jesse and Stacy.
4 Q All right. Are you sure?
5 A Yes. I'm positive.
6 THE COURT: Who did you say was there? Dandar,
7 Jesse, Stacy and Garko?
8 THE WITNESS: And sometimes -- at least once
9 Thom Haverty, because he drove one time, I think.
10 THE COURT: Okay. So when you said Bob and
11 Stacy, you meant Jesse and Stacy?
12 THE WITNESS: I meant Jesse and Stacy.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Is it still your testimony
14 Bob Minton was not present at any of those meetings?
15 THE WITNESS: Bob never attended like a trial
16 strategy meeting that I was at, ever.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Now --
19 THE COURT: If you don't mind, your position on
20 this was?
21 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I didn't have a position,
22 really, because I didn't know what the agreement
23 about not adding parties contained, so -- hadn't
24 read it, so I really didn't have a position, your
25 Honor.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
97
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q So I guess I didn't show anyone that agreement?
3 A I don't know.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I didn't see it.
6 Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with -- with your
7 knowledge about Scientology, about if there is any
8 requirement to report a psychotic person who is PTS Type III
9 to anyone?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What is that?
12 A You are supposed to report it to RTC.
13 Q When did you learn that?
14 A Mmm, it's a thing you learn when you do your staff
15 statuses. It's -- there is a whole list of things that you
16 are supposed to report up lines. The senior CS is the one
17 who taught me that. I don't know how other people learned
18 it.
19 Q Let me show you what I'll have marked as an
20 exhibit.
21 THE COURT: Who reports it to RTC?
22 THE WITNESS: The person that has knowledge.
23 In Scientology. Each individual person is
24 responsible to make reports -- there are many
25 different kinds of reports. And each person is
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
98
1 responsible to make reports on those things that
2 they're aware of. And there are policies that tell
3 you where to direct those reports.
4 So in this instance I had a situation I needed
5 to report to somebody and I didn't know who, and I
6 was shown this paper that had 80 or 100 different
7 things on it, listed, that were all to be reported
8 to RTC.
9 That was one of the things on there. If
10 someone goes psychotic, or they call it PTS Type
11 III.
12 THE COURT: You don't recall who on that report
13 who was to report it, whether it was you, or whether
14 it was Office of Special Affairs, or whether it was
15 senior case supervisor or who it was?
16 THE WITNESS: It doesn't say on that, your
17 Honor. It says -- it says that you are supposed to
18 report it.
19 THE COURT: So you would have been obliged to
20 report it to RTC?
21 THE WITNESS: Exactly. That is what I believe,
22 anyway.
23 THE COURT: Whether somebody else also had to
24 report it or not, you don't know?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. There are other people that
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
99
1 had responsibilities --
2 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, for goodness sakes, you
3 are talking practically in my left ear, and I'm
4 trying to have a conversation with your witness.
5 MR. DANDAR: Sorry, Judge.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, would it be possible
8 if I could leave for a second? Take about a minute
9 break?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Thank you.
12 (Short pause.)
13 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
14 THE COURT: You are welcome. You may continue.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q All right. Let me show you what is marked as
17 Plaintiff's Exhibit 110 entitled "KSW News."
18 MR. DANDAR: I'll hand the Court a copy.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q I'm going to hand you the clerk's copy, Mr. Haney,
21 but I'm also going to give you the original in case you need
22 to look at it in case there is something on there you can't
23 decipher.
24 What I want you to do is -- first of all, have you
25 seen KSW News while you were in Scientology?
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
100
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Could you open up to the middle section where it
3 says at the top "Keeping Scientology Working"?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q And over on the -- on your copy, which would be on
6 the right-hand side, it says "Matters of RTC concern."
7 A Yes.
8 Q And I have an arrow drawn where it says "PTS Type
9 III."
10 A Right.
11 Q Now, have you seen something similar to this while
12 you were inside as a member of Scientology?
13 A This is the format that I saw of these things laid
14 out. I don't know if I saw it in KSW or in some other
15 publication. But this is the same list, you know -- or the
16 same general list. I don't know if it's the same exact list
17 because they may have updated it. But this is the same
18 thing I saw in general format, yes.
19 Q Mr. Haney, turn to the back. And when was this
20 particular KSW News printed or copyrighted?
21 A Wow. 1994.
22 MR. DANDAR: I would like to move this into
23 evidence.
24 THE COURT: It will be received.
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
101
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Now, Mr. Haney, in the time that you have known
3 Bob Minton -- well, when is the last time you saw Bob
4 Minton?
5 A Probably June or July of 2000 -- oh, I saw him
6 very briefly in 2001. I don't remember when. Just at the
7 trust one time, for like five minutes. That is it.
8 Q Why did you leave the Lisa McPherson Trust?
9 A It became obvious that we were not going to work
10 on helping people, that it was basically Bob's little group
11 of people who were going to picket and do their best to
12 irritate Scientology.
13 Q Did you ever observe what Teresa Summers did at
14 the trust?
15 A Yes.
16 Q What was that?
17 A Mmm, she -- she was the only person I would say
18 that was actually trying to help people. She -- people who
19 wanted to get refunds from Scientology, she would help them
20 coordinate their complaints and send them to the right
21 places, first to Scientology itself. She made sure they
22 filled out the forms right and everything.
23 And then, if Scientology didn't respond, she would
24 send those complaints to other agencies, both state and
25 federal, I believe.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
102
1 Q And did you ever observe Jesse Prince doing
2 anything at the trust?
3 A I think he worked with Teresa on those same
4 issues. At least, he talked to me about it.
5 Q Did you ever know him to go out and counsel with
6 people?
7 A Yes. He would go -- sometimes people would call
8 the trust, and they had someone who was either in
9 Scientology or just getting in or just getting out, and they
10 would need somebody to talk to that person. And Jesse would
11 go to these different places around the country and talk to
12 those people.
13 Q Now, there came a time in the summer -- I believe
14 August of '99 -- when I met you in Key West?
15 A Well, yes. Uh-huh.
16 Q Can you tell the Court what that Key West trip was
17 about?
18 A Fishing.
19 Q How -- who set it up?
20 A Mmm, Thom Haverty had rented two houses -- I guess
21 he rented one he always goes to, then he rented a second one
22 when a bunch of us were coming. And I invited my son. Then
23 Jesse was going to go. And then eventually Ford Greene and
24 Dan Leipold were invited, because there was some
25 consideration that they might assist you on the wrongful
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
103
1 death case.
2 Q And did I come down to that meeting?
3 A You came later.
4 Q Okay. I didn't come right away, though?
5 A You weren't there at the beginning for the first
6 few hours or whatever.
7 Q Oh, okay. And did Michael Garko come?
8 A Yes.
9 Q All right. And did I -- did I have any
10 discussions down there with Mr. Greene and Mr. Leipold and
11 yourself and Jesse about Scientology?
12 A Oh, yeah.
13 Q And how many days did that go on?
14 A I think we were there five days, six days maybe.
15 Five or six.
16 Q And who are -- at that time, August '99 -- who is
17 Mr. Greene?
18 A Ford Greene was an attorney from California who
19 had a pretty famous case where he had argued some
20 constitutional issues about cultic behavior and had won a
21 case. And he also had some other cases involving
22 Scientology.
23 Q In fact, his case that he was known for was a case
24 before the highest court in California. Correct?
25 A Yes, I believe involving the Moonies.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
104
1 Q Where he successfully argued force of persuasion?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q And Mr. Leipold, he was a person familiar with
4 Scientology litigation?
5 A Yes. My understanding, he had defended
6 40-something of the suits that had been brought against the
7 people in the Cult Awareness Network.
8 Q When we were all there in Key West did you notice
9 any activity from what you perceived to be private
10 investigators?
11 A Oh, yeah.
12 Q What was that?
13 A Mmm, there was a white van that parked in front of
14 the house that I was staying in. It was back and forth and
15 there all of the time, you know, cruising slowly, all that
16 kind of stuff.
17 When we went to eat, there were people who were
18 obviously private investigators at one or two of the tables
19 at different restaurants we were at. Some, I guess, were
20 people that followed some of the people in our group of
21 four, so they were recognized by those people.
22 Q And, Mr. Haney, have you been the subject of any
23 harassment --
24 THE COURT: Do you know who these people were?
25 THE WITNESS: I don't know their names, no,
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
105
1 your Honor.
2 THE COURT: No, I mean, do you know --
3 obviously the implication is somehow they were
4 connected with the defendants in this case.
5 Do you know that for a fact? Or are you just
6 assuming?
7 THE WITNESS: I have subsequently seen them at
8 other locations where they appeared to be observing
9 Scientology critics. So I had seen some of those
10 faces before and after, too.
11 THE COURT: So you had seen some of these
12 people before there and after?
13 THE WITNESS: Right.
14 THE COURT: The before and after, were those
15 occasions occasions where there were either critics
16 working against the Church, or the Church was
17 involved in some fashion?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. And it was places with Bob
19 and Stacy, primarily. Yes.
20 THE COURT: Did you feel comfortable that they
21 were investigators with the Church?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. One guy had a camera and he
23 was trying to take pictures under the table, you
24 know. He had the camera like this (indicating) and
25 was trying to take pictures from under the table at
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
106
1 our -- at our booth. So, yes.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q The -- the reporting up to RTC that is in the
4 exhibit --
5 THE COURT: I want to stop you just a second.
6 This activity that happened down in Key West
7 with people you thought were private investigators,
8 weren't -- when you say they weren't what you would
9 call actively harassing you?
10 THE WITNESS: No. Actually, they didn't want
11 to be noticed.
12 THE COURT: Okay, these were folks just maybe
13 trying to get some pictures or --
14 THE WITNESS: I think overhearing the
15 conversation.
16 THE COURT: Doing what private investigators
17 do?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly.
19 THE COURT: So there were no leaflets being
20 posted, or nobody was coming in, telling the person
21 where you were staying, you weren't going to pay
22 your bill and they should throw you out or anything
23 like that?
24 THE WITNESS: Not as relates to that. But
25 there was a situation with Ken's plane. He had a
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
107
1 friend who had a private plane that brought him
2 down. And someone was calling the airport all of
3 the time, trying to get the tail numbers of the
4 plane, pretending that they were Ken. And I
5 remember that.
6 And then --
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q What about my rental car? Do you remember
9 anything about that?
10 A Yes. There was a guy who put some pot in the
11 rental car that Ken had, in a cigarette pack, and threw it
12 in the glove compartment. So -- that was found.
13 MR. WEINBERG: You know, I -- I just want to
14 make the record clear that any kind of suggestion
15 that there is some evidence that the Church put pot
16 in Mr. Dandar's rental car is just nonsense. And
17 there is no evidence of that.
18 And I really object to this kind of speculation
19 from this witness.
20 THE COURT: Well, you can object, but --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I am.
22 THE COURT: -- but if, in fact, there was pot
23 put in Mr. Dandar's car --
24 MR. WEINBERG: He might have put pot in his
25 car, for all I know. It might have been
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
108
1 Mr. Prince's pot from his house. I don't know. But
2 the implication that it's somebody from the Church
3 of Scientology that put pot in his car I find
4 offensive and I don't think there is any evidence of
5 that.
6 THE COURT: Did somebody put pot in
7 Mr. Dandar's car? Do you know that for a fact, or
8 not?
9 THE WITNESS: When they arrived to the location
10 of the houses, they relayed a story that something
11 weird had happened at the rental car place, that as
12 they walked toward the rental car, a guy in the
13 rental car office uniform was in the car messing
14 around. And when they said "Hey" to him, because
15 they thought he had the keys, he ran away.
16 Later on, somebody opened the glove compartment
17 of the car and there was a Marlboro cigarette pack,
18 a hard box, and it had cellophane around it. When
19 he flipped it over, inside the cellophane was a
20 marijuana bud about yea big.
21 THE COURT: Marijuana what?
22 THE WITNESS: Bud, you know, a piece from a
23 stalk with the leaves on it, like it was torn off a
24 marijuana plant.
25 THE COURT: You mean just the plant? Stalk --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
109
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, about that long, yeah.
2 THE COURT: Did you put it there?
3 THE WITNESS: No.
4 THE COURT: And, of course, you don't know who
5 put it there?
6 THE WITNESS: I don't know who put it there.
7 THE COURT: You certainly don't know whoever
8 put it there was connected with the Church of
9 Scientology?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q The reporting requirement that you just looked at
13 in the KSW News and you had seen before while you were a
14 member of the Church of Scientology, does that apply only to
15 staff members to report someone who is PTS Type III?
16 A It would apply to all members of Scientology. I
17 think on the page before that, it discusses -- when -- when
18 you opened this, I was looking in it -- it says -- there are
19 two paragraphs. It says, "Scientologists from all over the
20 world --"
21 THE COURT: Where are you reading from, sir?
22 THE WITNESS: I'm reading from the page
23 opposite the page that says "Matters of RTC
24 concern."
25 THE COURT: Okay.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
110
1 THE WITNESS: There are two arrows. The bottom
2 arrow. The page says, "Scientologists from all over
3 the world are encouraged to communicate directly
4 with RTC. Many do so, writing to RTC about any
5 violations, the standard technology or policy they
6 have encountered or suspected. People also write in
7 about good results they have achieved through
8 standard application. And RTC values these
9 communications, as well."
10 So that was consistent with what I understood,
11 both as a public member and as a staff member.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
13 THE COURT: Did you have any policy letter that
14 you have ever seen, as a second in command of the
15 Ohio org, for -- or Columbus org, that said
16 specifically PTS III should be reported to RTC?
17 THE WITNESS: There was a very long policy
18 letter about PTS and SPs, I think called suppressive
19 persons and something-something-something, but -- it
20 was maybe 12 pages long. And it discusses that you
21 have to report it up lines. I don't remember if it
22 specifically said RTC. But it said, you know, up
23 lines, which means up the command channels.
24 THE COURT: I have seen that, and I don't
25 recall it does say that it is to be reported up
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
111
1 lines.
2 However, you do not recall then, I take it, a
3 specific policy letter that says these things are to
4 be reported these places or anything like that?
5 THE WITNESS: There is lots of policy letters
6 that tell you where to report different things. But
7 I don't know of one that says to report PTS Type III
8 to RTC, outside of this.
9 THE COURT: Whatever it was --
10 THE WITNESS: Anything that I was shown.
11 THE COURT: Whatever it was you saw at your
12 org, was it something like this? Or was it -- I
13 mean, I presume it wasn't something put in a
14 magazine -- or maybe it was. Did it look like this?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was.
16 THE COURT: It would have been something like
17 this?
18 THE WITNESS: It was from a publication. At
19 the org we would set the publications out in the
20 waiting room and the people could pick them up,
21 staff members and public alike.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: It was in one of those magazines,
24 because when the CS showed it to me, he flipped it
25 open and showed it to me.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
112
1 THE COURT: Okay. So something just like
2 this --
3 THE WITNESS: Something just like this.
4 THE COURT: -- would have been what you saw?
5 Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Have you ever seen me picket?
8 A I have seen pickets, yes.
9 Q Have you seen me picket?
10 A Oh, no. I don't know of you ever picketing. And
11 I asked you, and you said you had not.
12 Q Are you aware if a public member of the Church of
13 Scientology can obtain free services?
14 A No. That is specifically prohibited.
15 Q What happens if a staff member provides free
16 services?
17 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, your Honor, I object.
18 There must be some relevance to these questions. He
19 asked these to four or five other witnesses, as
20 well, about whether or not you can get free services
21 or not --
22 THE COURT: Frankly, I wouldn't expect you to
23 see the relevance. I understand the relevance of
24 where you are going with this. So, overruled.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Then it is repetitive is
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
113
1 my other objection.
2 THE COURT: I think it is repetitive, isn't it?
3 MR. DANDAR: Well, it is. But this is a
4 different type staff person. This is a non-Sea Org
5 member.
6 THE COURT: That is true. All right.
7 A As a staff member, if I gave someone free
8 services, I would be sent to ethics.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Is ethics a reward, or punishment?
11 THE COURT: Now, I do know that.
12 A It's a punishment.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Are there routing forms in Scientology?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Do public members have to have a routing form?
17 A Yes.
18 THE COURT: Just a second. I can see the
19 lawyer is trying to speak but he's choked up.
20 MR. DANDAR: I thought only one could speak.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'm dying, too.
22 MR. DANDAR: Maybe that is why he's choking.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Excuse me. I just want to make
24 an objection, because it is not a belief of
25 Scientology that ethics is a punishment.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
114
1 THE COURT: That is true. And it isn't my
2 belief, either. But he was asking if it was -- I
3 don't know, good or bad or --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Is it reward or punishment.
5 THE COURT: He just picked one of the two. I
6 would agree that is not what I would call it, but --
7 but those are the two choices he gave him, and --
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. I just wanted to
9 clarify.
10 THE COURT: He picked one. All right.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q What are routing forms for?
13 A They give you a specified number of actions to go
14 to in a particular sequence in order to accomplish
15 something.
16 There are staff routing forms you go through to
17 familiarize yourself with the organization when you first
18 start. There are leaving staff routing forms you do when
19 you exit staff. And there are routing forms for other
20 things, as well.
21 Q Are there routing forms for rundowns?
22 A Mmm --
23 THE COURT: If you know. If you don't know,
24 say so.
25 A I can't really say that one way or another. There
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
115
1 are --
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q All right.
4 A There are -- there are procedure lists with steps
5 on them that you have to go through, yes. So -- but I don't
6 think they call them routing forms.
7 Q Since leaving the Church of Scientology -- well,
8 let me ask you this. Have you ever heard of the policy
9 called fair game?
10 A Oh, yes.
11 Q Have you heard of the policy called cancellation
12 of fair game?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Have you been fair game since you left the Church
15 of Scientology?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And in which ways?
18 A Mmm, when I was in litigation with the
19 Scientologists, there were times when things would come up
20 in depositions that were only said by me over the telephone,
21 so I wonder, you know, how somebody could find out about
22 that.
23 Mmm, there were times when --
24 THE COURT: Are you suggesting that you felt as
25 if the person asking you questions -- I guess the
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
116
1 person asking you questions was the lawyer for the
2 Church?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor -- well, no, for
4 a Scientologist who had been my partner.
5 THE COURT: A former Scientologist?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: That lawyer was representing that
8 person?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: And they asked you -- well, that
11 wasn't connected with the Church then?
12 THE WITNESS: Not specifically, no. But there
13 was a lot of Scientology-related stuff in the case.
14 So Mr. Moxon, for instance, was present for some of
15 those things.
16 THE COURT: I see. And you believed that the
17 only way that that lawyer could have gotten that
18 information was through some sort of illegal wiretap
19 on your phone?
20 THE WITNESS: Somebody overheard those
21 conversations in some manner, yes. And normally it
22 would be from my home office where I was by myself.
23 THE COURT: Were you talking over a cell phone
24 or a regular phone?
25 THE WITNESS: A landline.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
117
1 THE COURT: What is that?
2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. A regular telephone
3 with a cord.
4 THE COURT: As far as you knew, you had not
5 given anyone permission to intercept your calls?
6 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 THE WITNESS: Also, we had cars that would come
9 by -- I live in a cul-de-sac with very little
10 traffic. But for a period of time in 1998 and '99,
11 particularly when Vaughn Young was living in
12 Columbus, Ohio, we had cars back and forth in front
13 of my house as often as 20 times a day, driving
14 very, very slowly, going down to the cul-de-sac and
15 driving down the other direction.
16 That Christmas my credit card had $18,000 worth
17 of mysterious charges on it that I had to have
18 canceled.
19 And the minister at my church was contacted on
20 at least three different occasions, once by the
21 private investigator of Scientology, once by Heber
22 Jentzsch, president of the Church of Scientology
23 International, and once by the minister who runs the
24 largest denomination -- or congregation in our
25 denomination, all three times telling my minister
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
118
1 that he should do something to cause me to stop
2 being a critic of Scientology.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Was this while you were active with the Lisa
5 McPherson Trust?
6 A It was -- I think it was before the trust was
7 formed. I believe it was in 1999. The trust wasn't formed
8 until December of '99 -- or November of '99. So I think it
9 was the summer before that. But I could be wrong. It could
10 be in 2000.
11 Q Well, let me hand this to you.
12 THE COURT: What were you told as a member,
13 second in command of the Ohio org, about the
14 cancellation of the fair game policy, if anything?
15 THE WITNESS: They said they cancelled the name
16 "fair game" because it was bad for public relations,
17 but that the -- the activity described in fair game
18 was still ongoing.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just identify who is
20 "they" said this?
21 THE COURT: Yes, who?
22 THE WITNESS: The two people I would normally
23 speak to, one man was named Bennett Parish. He was
24 my direct senior. He was executive director.
25 The other guy who was my best friend there was
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
119
1 named Chris Kline, my best friend there. He was
2 senior case supervisor.
3 THE COURT: So they said the cancellation
4 policy cancelled the name but not the activity for
5 suppressive persons?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. They would sometimes
7 discuss people who had criticized Scientology and
8 then the things that happened to those people as a
9 result of that activity.
10 Mr. Wollersheim was the only one discussed by
11 name that I ever heard about, so -- oh, and one --
12 that is not right. There was another guy locally.
13 We had a man whose last name was Anderson. The
14 family owned a group of stores in Columbus called
15 Anderson's General Store. And this man, Paul
16 Anderson, had belonged to Scientology for a period
17 of months, and given about $250,000 to different
18 Scientology organizations, then requested a refund.
19 And when he did so, there were a bunch of
20 different things done to him. And they talked about
21 those things inside the organization because, you
22 know, the guys in my org were privy to that
23 information.
24 THE COURT: Like what kind of things?
25 THE WITNESS: He had psychiatric problems, and
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
120
1 so they had threatened the family with exposing his
2 psychiatric history publicly, you know. The family
3 was well known around town, and this one son had had
4 difficulties. And so it was that, you know, they
5 better watch out because if they continue with this
6 stuff, they're going to find out that this is all
7 over the place.
8 THE COURT: This was your supervisor talking
9 about this?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. My supervisor was directly
11 responsible for about $80,000 of the $250,000. And
12 we had this problem that we didn't have $80,000 in
13 the organization to give back to this guy. So it
14 was a very serious matter that somehow we had to
15 come up with $80,000 to give this guy, because it
16 was a legal problem that was hanging over the head
17 of the organization.
18 And so one side was how to solve the problem.
19 The other side was, yes, but you know what we're
20 going to do to this guy kind of thing. So --
21 THE COURT: And that was part of -- the telling
22 the family that the mental illness would be
23 revealed?
24 THE WITNESS: Somehow, my direct supervisor
25 knew this guy's personal psychiatric history. And
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
121
1 it included -- I'm trying to think -- sexual
2 deviancy and other things that somebody would not
3 want known publicly. And so the threat was to
4 expose these things if they didn't cooperate and let
5 him out of paying this money back.
6 THE COURT: What happened?
7 THE WITNESS: I think that the -- my
8 recollection is that eventually the $80,000 was paid
9 back. And the rest of the money was never paid
10 back.
11 THE COURT: This would have been, in your mind,
12 fair game?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, there is nothing
14 else in Scientology -- there were no other policies
15 that I was aware of where we would harass or --
16 somebody like that. See, I had never seen a policy
17 that said to do that. So then it was described to
18 me and shown to me, a policy called fair game, where
19 that is what we did. It said to sue, lie, trick and
20 utterly destroy someone. So that I understood, you
21 know, what it was about.
22 THE COURT: Then you saw -- you saw the policy
23 that cancelled it?
24 THE WITNESS: We didn't actually have that
25 policy in our org. One of the guys that worked
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
122
1 there had that group of old material and showed it
2 to me. We didn't have that in our organization
3 where we could look it up or anything. That wasn't
4 something we were privy to.
5 THE COURT: Thank you.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Now, look at Plaintiff's Composite Exhibit Number
8 111. Can you identify what this is?
9 A Mmm, when my minister first told me about the --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, if he's
11 going to testify about conversations with his
12 minister and -- and anything about the substance of
13 what this letter is, this is just unmitigated
14 hearsay from a pastor, supposedly to Brian Haney. I
15 mean, this is --
16 THE COURT: Well, I haven't even looked at it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: He was just about to describe
18 his conversation.
19 THE COURT: Well, first of all, if you can --
20 you can identify these, I take it?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Tell me what they are.
23 THE WITNESS: There are three memos that I
24 asked my minister to write up every time he was
25 contacted by someone from Scientology after the
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
123
1 first time he was contacted. I asked him to please
2 memorialize them in writing so I would have them as
3 a record.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Let me read it.
5 Okay. It does seem it would be hearsay.
6 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
7 THE COURT: I mean, the fact of the matter is,
8 however, I suppose he could ask you to produce these
9 people and have them on the stand. I mean, do you
10 really want to do that, Counsel?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Of course not. Are you talking
12 to me?
13 THE COURT: Yes. In other words --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Of course not. But, I mean --
15 THE COURT: I don't know if there is anything
16 wrong with this --
17 MR. WEINBERG: There is nothing wrong about
18 anything except what is going on here. I mean, this
19 is communication between him and his lawyer, you
20 know. It's who the cover letter is from. Those are
21 his lawyers, I guess for this litigation he had with
22 this -- you know, this public Scientologist --
23 THE COURT: Just a second, Counsel. What do
24 you mean, "What is going on here"?
25 MR. WEINBERG: No --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
124
1 THE COURT: The hearsay objection I just
2 sustained. But I suggested, however, that --
3 Mr. Dandar, that you would be happy to produce these
4 three people so he could ask them if it is true, we
5 might as well let it in this way. If it is not
6 true --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I agree.
8 THE COURT: -- then --
9 MR. WEINBERG: I agree with you. It is no big
10 deal. It's just -- it's -- but it is -- I mean,
11 from time to time I tried to make --
12 THE COURT: You are right, it is hearsay. And
13 I'm going to sustain it. But I ask them -- I know,
14 for example, this man, this one soul, Mr. Heber
15 Jentzsch, J-E-N-T-Z-S-C-H, so produce him and then
16 it won't be hearsay. And Mr. Dandar can ask him the
17 question. Or, better yet, you ask him the question.
18 And if he says it is true, then we'll just introduce
19 the letter and save him the trip.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Introduce the letter. Save him
21 the trip.
22 THE COURT: All right. So "what is going on
23 here" is a little bit -- if it's not false, then an
24 effort to save some folks from having to come here
25 and testify.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
125
1 MR. WEINBERG: It had nothing -- it wasn't a
2 comment with regard --
3 THE COURT: I don't appreciate --
4 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
5 THE COURT: -- on the 26th day you are saying
6 "What is going on here?" Well, what is going on
7 here, we're trying to finish a hearing.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with you.
9 THE COURT: Oh. Well, good. Because I'm not
10 in the mood. Must be because I'm close to lunch.
11 Can you finish with him?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Is there any doubt in your mind, or do you have
15 any hesitation, on whether or not fair game was cancelled or
16 not cancelled?
17 A I know it was not cancelled because we talked
18 about it at the org and I was subject to it once I left
19 Scientology.
20 Q Have you been intimidated in coming here today to
21 honor the subpoena that was lawfully served on you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q In which way?
24 A I was sent a letter, through my attorney, saying
25 that --
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
126
1 THE COURT: By whom?
2 THE WITNESS: By the attorney for the man I had
3 the settlement with, who was the public
4 Scientologist.
5 A Saying that by giving an interview to the St. Pete
6 Times, I had violated that settlement and that I owed him
7 $1 million as damages.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q To be paid when?
10 A Immediately. By June 21 or --
11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I hate to interrupt you,
12 but what does giving an interview to the St. Pete
13 Times have to do with coming to court and testifying
14 pursuant to a subpoena?
15 I mean, I don't know if you gave an interview
16 to the St. Pete Times or not, but if -- if the
17 letter from the lawyer was something about your
18 giving an interview to the St. Pete Times, did it
19 say anything about your coming to court?
20 THE WITNESS: No. What -- what happened was
21 they knew a month or so ago, when this other man was
22 interviewed, that I had spoken to the St. Pete Times
23 and they apparently had no problem with it then.
24 But last Friday they sent a letter saying I
25 owed them a million dollars once they found out, I
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
127
1 guess, that I -- I don't know when Mr. Dandar
2 announced I was coming to court. It just seemed
3 coincidental.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I only have one copy of
6 this. I'll be glad to make copies during the break.
7 THE COURT: When did you speak to the St.
8 Petersburg Times? Do you remember?
9 THE WITNESS: Four to six weeks ago.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: I'll make copies of this during
12 the break.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Could you identify Exhibit 112?
15 MR. DANDAR: Do you want to see it first?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I would like to.
17 MR. DANDAR: Let's have him identify it first.
18 A This is the letter that Dick Rogovin received
19 saying I owed $1 million.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q That is your attorney, Mr. Rogovin?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q Received it when?
24 A It says he received it June 17.
25 Q Okay.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
128
1 A I just want to make sure. Yes, the fax was sent
2 June 17.
3 MR. DANDAR: I'll make copies during the break.
4 THE COURT: Who is it from?
5 MR. DANDAR: From the attorney for the --
6 THE COURT: Well, is this an attorney for the
7 Church?
8 MR. WEINBERG: No. It is not.
9 THE COURT: Then it doesn't come in.
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, could I try to show you?
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q You mentioned before, Mr. Haney, that Mr. Moxon
13 was involved in this litigation?
14 A Yes. Mr. Moxon was the personal attorney for
15 Bryan Zwan, who was the defendant in the case I was in.
16 Q Involving Digital Lightwave?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And Mr. -- did anyone else represent Mr. Zwan, the
19 public Scientologist, besides Mr. Moxon?
20 A I know other people represented the company, but I
21 don't remember if somebody specifically -- there were a
22 group of lawyers. And I don't know besides that.
23 MR. WEINBERG: For the record, I want to make
24 an objection. I mean, Mr. Dandar keeps saying, do
25 you know who represented the public Scientologist.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
129
1 I have never ever in court heard somebody ask a
2 question like, do you know who was representing the
3 public Catholic, or public unitarian. I mean,
4 Mr. --
5 THE COURT: I haven't, either. But I don't
6 think I have ever been involved in a case where the
7 Church of Scientology was on one side or the other
8 side --
9 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. But this case,
10 there was a big article in the paper about Mr. Haney
11 and Mr. Zwan with regard to Digital Lightwave. The
12 St. Pete Times did one of these four-page stories, a
13 week or so ago --
14 THE COURT: The one with the business?
15 MR. WEINBERG: The business, right.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. WEINBERG: This is the case. Obviously
18 there was settlement in the case, a lawsuit.
19 Mr. Haney sued Mr. Zwan, didn't sue the Church of
20 Scientology. The Church of Scientology is not party
21 in this case. So what --
22 THE COURT: Why don't you just object to the
23 relevancy and I'll probably sustain it.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the relevancy.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
130
1 MR. HEALY: Judge, I'm completely out of order.
2 I apologize. My name is Robert Healy. I'm here
3 from White. We represented Digital Lightwave in
4 that lawsuit. There is a confidentiality agreement
5 that we would object to Mr. Haney breaching on the
6 stand with respect to that litigation. I just
7 wanted to voice that objection.
8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. As I said
9 to other lawyers who had confidentiality agreements,
10 I'm not party, I couldn't care less. If they
11 breached any agreement, that is up to you to sue
12 them or do whatever it is you have to do.
13 So you can come in my court. But as far as I'm
14 concerned, whatever confidentiality agreement he has
15 is worthless to me. If I demand and command him to
16 answer something, that is what I'll do, and he'll
17 either answer or be held in contempt. But we're not
18 there yet.
19 But thank you for coming and advising me.
20 Thank you.
21 As far as I'm concerned, whatever your
22 agreement is, I'm not part of it. If you don't
23 think you need to answer something because of some
24 agreement you had, you tell me, and your lawyer can
25 explain it to me, and then I'll make some decision
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
131
1 as to whether or not you have to answer it. And you
2 can confer with your lawyer.
3 But we're not there. That hasn't happened. I
4 don't think he asked him a thing about the
5 agreement.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Why --
10 THE COURT: I thought you said you would be
11 able to finish.
12 MR. DANDAR: Last question.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Why do you think this letter had anything to do
15 with your appearance in court?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.
17 Speculating.
18 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to allow it, under
19 the circumstances. I mean, as to why -- I don't
20 know why he thinks, either.
21 A Because Mr. Zwan was aware I had given the
22 interview to the St. Pete Times six weeks ago. If he wanted
23 to raise this objection saying it violated the agreement, he
24 could have sent the letter at that time.
25 He, in fact, did call my attorney, Dick Rogovin,
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
132
1 saying, "Haney violated the agreement."
2 And Rogovin said, "No, he hasn't."
3 And that was it. Then we never heard anything.
4 And then last Friday this letter shows up.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q This letter is dated Monday?
7 A Monday, excuse me. Monday this letter shows up.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have.
10 THE COURT: Well, of course the -- the record
11 will reflect that a lawyer from Fowler White
12 mysteriously showed up here to be even heard. In
13 any event, we're going to take a lunch break.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Terrific.
15 THE COURT: It is ten minutes till. I suspect
16 we're not going to get to Mr. Prince today in a
17 meaningful way. He's going to be able to
18 cross-examine. You may redirect.
19 Quite frankly, you're not going to finish with
20 Mr. Prince. Why bring Mr. Prince down here?
21 MR. DANDAR: I was going to actually try to
22 honor your suggestion yesterday, let's get to the
23 heart of the matter, and have Mr. Prince go right
24 into the LMT and right into 2002.
25 THE COURT: You know, Mr. Dandar, why don't you
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
133
1 give me a break. Just once in your lifetime why
2 don't you just say, "You know, that sounds just
3 right, Judge. You must be beat. And I know you are
4 leaving town. And I know you are getting ready to
5 sell your house. And you must have a hundred things
6 to do. And, you know what, it would be awfully nice
7 if you could have a break, for -- particularly for
8 you, Judge, who must need it." Instead of saying,
9 "Keep working, keep working, read this stuff at
10 night, do this, do that."
11 You think maybe you could just once -- you
12 know, I'm hungry. Can you tell that?
13 I also would like to have a little break when
14 this witness is done. Frankly, I don't need to hear
15 from Mr. Prince who couldn't possibly finish today.
16 MR. DANDAR: But you did ask me to remind you
17 at the end of the day to talk about Mr. Prince and
18 his ability or inability to talk with me during the
19 two-week break.
20 THE COURT: We can do that at the end of the
21 day, plus whatever legal matters you might raise
22 over the lunch break, which I'm sure there will be
23 some from you or the other side, or perhaps some
24 from both sides, that we can deal with after we deal
25 with this witness and that. And then at 4 o'clock
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
134
1 you would want to call Mr. Prince --
2 MR. DANDAR: No. No.
3 THE COURT: -- to make sure we're all here
4 until five or six or whatever.
5 MR. DANDAR: I think it would be a great idea
6 for you to take as much time off this afternoon --
7 THE COURT: Listen to how he phrases it. Can
8 you imagine that, "For you to take off." Instead of
9 saying, you know, that -- with the St. Pete Times
10 here, "You know what, Judge," like they do from time
11 to time, "I think it would be nice, I know that
12 counsel over here is sick."
13 You know that, don't you? He's not feeling
14 well?
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
16 THE COURT: You know that?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
18 THE COURT: You must know that I could use a
19 little time to take phone calls, do a few little
20 things before I leave town for a meeting after
21 meeting after meeting. Panel discussions.
22 You might say, "You know, I could really use a
23 little break today, get other things done in my
24 office. So I would be perfectly agreeable to that,
25 Judge."
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
135
1 MR. DANDAR: I would be perfectly agreeable.
2 THE COURT: I thought you would. With that in
3 mind, why don't you call Mr. Prince over the lunch
4 break and tell him he need not come today. And when
5 we're done with this witness, we'll give everybody a
6 break. Counsel is not feeling well. I have to make
7 some phone calls. We'll finish with him and we'll
8 call it a day.
9 MR. DANDAR: All right.
10 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 1:15.
11 I'll tell you, you are on the stand. While you
12 are on the witness stand, you really can't even talk
13 to your lawyer -- you can talk to him, but you can't
14 talk to him about your testimony as long as you are
15 on the stand.
16 Once you are off the stand, it doesn't apply.
17 So you can have lunch with your lawyer, talk about a
18 lot of stuff, but --
19 MR. ROGOVIN: Can I buy him lunch?
20 THE COURT: Absolutely, you can buy him lunch.
21 As I said, you can talk about anything you want to,
22 just not about the case. I know you know the rules.
23 MR. ROGOVIN: Thank you.
24 (WHEREUPON, a recess is taken from 12:00 to
25 1:15 p.m.)
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
136
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 19th day of June, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500