IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 8
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG JESSE PRINCE
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: July 11, 2002. Morning Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
Page 1008
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff
5
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
6 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
7 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
8
9 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
10 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
11 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization
13
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
14 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
15 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1009
1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I've been bringing these
2 things to court almost every day, not doing anything
3 about it. I'd like to file the signed declarations of
4 Stacy Brooks and replace the exhibits that weren't
5 signed, when she complained about it. And for the
6 record, let me tell you what exhibit numbers they are.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. DANDAR: 21, 23, 24, 25, and 27.
9 THE COURT: All right. Madam Clerk, I think
10 the best thing to do, rather than -- I don't know,
11 should we just file them now all together? Or should
12 we just replace that which we have with the signed --
13 MR. DANDAR: Replace them.
14 THE COURT: Okay. That seems appropriate.
15 Any problem with that?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Are you going to --
17 No, there's no problem.
18 Do you have copies you can show us?
19 MR. DANDAR: I actually have copies for you.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We just want to take a
21 look at them, make sure they're the right ones.
22 THE COURT: Well, let's go ahead and take
23 them out.
24 For now, Madam Clerk, just put them aside
25 until you all have a chance to look at them. So we'll
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1010
1 go ahead and do that. I assume they're the same ones;
2 you checked them.
3 Speaking of that, when I was looking at this
4 withheld material, one of the things, the draft --
5 what appears to be the draft affidavit of Stacy
6 Brooks, I actually think it was filed and I actually
7 think it was admitted into evidence in this case. So
8 let me see those affidavits.
9 MR. DANDAR: Here's one, No. 21.
10 THE COURT: They're great big ones,
11 86 pages.
12 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
13 THE COURT: And it was filed, not in
14 Wollersheim, but in a case that had to do with a
15 Dr. Geertz.
16 MR. WEINBERG: That was like 1993 or
17 something like that --
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- '94.
20 MR. DANDAR: This is an 82-pager.
21 THE COURT: I bet that's it. Let me see it.
22 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 23 of the plaintiff.
23 THE COURT: That's it. So I don't have to
24 read it. I already read that. I kept thinking, "This
25 is familiar."
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1011
1 I've read through two of the three packets
2 of information. Thus far it's all privileged,
3 attorneys' bills, that kind of thing, a couple
4 attorney e-mails, attorney-client.
5 I have not gone through the Patricia
6 Greenway packet yet. That's for tonight.
7 MR. FUGATE: Here's the transcripts --
8 THE COURT: Speaking of that, what do we
9 want to do with those? It seems -- like I said, the
10 first packet I looked at was two e-mails, one from --
11 it appeared to be Mr. Jonas to Mr. Minton; one from
12 Mr. Merrett to Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks, or LMT.
13 Nothing really related to this proceeding. They were,
14 as I said, from attorney to a client. So they
15 wouldn't be admissible or they wouldn't be outside the
16 privilege.
17 The second packet that I looked at, the
18 first part of it, except for this draft -- which was
19 exactly the same; I mean, it was a final draft. It
20 was just on yellow paper instead of white paper. It
21 looked exactly like that. But the rest of it was all
22 attorneys' bills and -- you know, from deVlaming and
23 Howie and on and on.
24 So I don't even see any real need to seal
25 that and put it in the court file. It seems to me
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1012
1 that -- it looked like it was their copies -- that I
2 ought to send it back to the lawyer.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Send them back to the client,
4 I guess. I mean, it's the client's.
5 THE COURT: Yes. I gathered that both of
6 those things were things that Mr. McGowan had -- there
7 was somebody's name on it. I couldn't figure it out,
8 read the signature.
9 But either give them back to Mr. Keane and
10 tell him to send them back or give them back to the
11 client.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, it's the client's
13 materials and it's their privilege. I'd give them
14 back to whoever is -- in this case, it's the LMT.
15 THE COURT: It's the LMT, so I think --
16 that's why I think I would give it back to
17 Mr. McGowan.
18 MR. WEINBERG: McGowan, right.
19 THE COURT: And Mr. McGowan can give it back
20 to the client --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
22 THE COURT: -- or keep it with the LMT
23 records, if he's been asked to, or whatever he's been
24 asked to.
25 MR. WEINBERG: He asserted the privilege,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1013
1 though. He's the one --
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 MR. WEINBERG: -- that asserted the
4 privilege. Give it back to Mr. McGowan.
5 THE COURT: As I said, that gives me one
6 more packet. Now, it's not very big. It looks like
7 it's maybe not more than ten documents. So I just was
8 too tired last night. I couldn't -- I couldn't stay
9 awake to read them anymore.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I was having trouble staying
11 awake --
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- last night too.
14 THE COURT: So I'll do that tonight. If
15 there's any that's controversial, I'll seal them. If
16 there's any I want to distribute, I'll make copies for
17 everybody. And then I'll tell you tomorrow what they
18 are so we can decide what to do with those.
19 MR. FUGATE: This is the daily copy for the
20 notebook, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Wonderful. I have not
22 looked to see where my Volumes I and II are, but I'll
23 try to get to that.
24 MR. FUGATE: That is what Volume I and II
25 is. It's all of the hearing --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1014
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. FUGATE: -- or part of it,
3 chronologically.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Let's see. We were going
5 to do that hearing on the brief, but it was at 1:30,
6 wasn't it?
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's what you said, yes,
8 your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Now, if he doesn't appear
10 and nobody appears for him, I may delay it because,
11 frankly, I just haven't been able to get to that, to
12 look at it. Probably I'll hear you, and we can take a
13 look after the fact or something like that.
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, Mr. Henson e-mailed me
15 back. He did not say whether or not he's coming or
16 has a lawyer. But he wanted your fax number to fax
17 you a reply of some kind. Do you want me to give him
18 the fax number?
19 THE COURT: Sure. I don't know what it is.
20 MR. DANDAR: I don't either.
21 THE COURT: Sue can tell you what it is.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll ask her.
23 THE COURT: But whatever -- I don't know
24 what he's going to reply -- oh, I guess maybe to the
25 filing of the pleading. Is that it?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1015
1 MR. DANDAR: It could be. I don't know.
2 THE COURT: Okay. If he files a reply, I
3 probably won't have a chance to read it by 1:30. But
4 if he doesn't show up, then as far as I'm concerned,
5 we can schedule it some other time, without further
6 notice, if I don't have time to read his reply before
7 1:30.
8 Go ahead and call him on the break this
9 morning.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 THE COURT: Tell him he can fax it to me.
12 And tell him that, that if I don't have a chance to
13 read it before 1:30 -- I mean, he needs to get it --
14 anything he wants to get, he needs to get it here.
15 But if I have to schedule another hearing, I won't
16 notice him because it will be the same hearing.
17 MR. DANDAR: Right.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else this
19 morning?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, there was one thing.
21 There was a request to produce that went out that we
22 got a response to yesterday that had to do with
23 requesting from the plaintiff information concerning
24 the submission of the disks from this proceeding --
25 THE COURT: The disks?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1016
1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, the ASCII disks of the
2 transcripts. They're all on the Internet. They get
3 them on the Internet daily. So that -- and we're
4 not -- there's only two people that are getting ASCII
5 disks: There's us and there's the plaintiff.
6 So we asked the plaintiff -- we made a
7 request for production to Mr. Dandar for that.
8 THE COURT: For what?
9 MR. WEINBERG: For all notes, memorandum --
10 I'm sorry -- all letters, e-mails, memorandum, or
11 other communications of any type or relevance.
12 THE COURT: My court reporter couldn't
13 probably keep up.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
15 "A list of all persons, organizations,
16 groups, entities, or Internet sites that you or your
17 office employs or consultants provide with ASCII disk
18 copies of daily transcripts of the hearings."
19 "Objection, work product. Otherwise, none."
20 Well, they're appearing on the Internet
21 every day, this proceeding. Which is supposedly --
22 they're supposed to be sequestered witnesses. The
23 witnesses are supposed to be sequestered in this case.
24 But apparently someone -- and it's not us -- is
25 providing it to the Internet. And I don't think
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1017
1 that's -- I think it's inappropriate. And we asked,
2 and I don't think the objection is work product. If
3 that's being done, it ought -- it ought to be
4 disclosed. Because that is, I believe, a
5 circumvention of what -- of the sequestration.
6 THE COURT: Well, the only thing I can tell
7 you, Counselor, is I'm not going to, short a motion,
8 get involved with some suppression of any information
9 going out on the Internet that is otherwise public
10 record. And I --
11 MR. WEINBERG: We weren't seeking to
12 suppress it. We were seeking to discover from the
13 plaintiff if in fact that's what the plaintiff or
14 someone on behalf of the plaintiff has been doing.
15 And if that's the case, I think it's appropriate to
16 raise that issue -- not to suppress because, you know,
17 if somebody wants to do it, they can. But it
18 certainly bears on what is taking -- what has
19 transpired in this hearing, I think. I do. Because,
20 I mean, they're --
21 THE COURT: I'm not going to require him to
22 respond to that.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he already responded.
24 THE COURT: Okay. In other words, I mean, I
25 think the Internet is out there. You know probably
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1018
1 where it's going. You know how to get to those sites.
2 I don't, or I'd look myself. Is it appropriate? I
3 don't know. I'd have to have a motion and hear
4 argument on it.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it wouldn't be
6 appropriate for a sequestered witness to be reading
7 daily transcripts.
8 THE COURT: It should not be being read by
9 witnesses. But I assume you can ask that. Frankly,
10 once a witness testifies, I don't care if they read
11 it.
12 MR. WEINBERG: No, I mean prospective --
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- witnesses.
15 THE COURT: And what I would do if I were
16 you is ask the witnesses if they have read it. The --
17 do I think people should be putting this out on the
18 Internet? Probably not.
19 MR. DANDAR: I can assure the Court, neither
20 I nor anyone under my control has put this out on the
21 Internet for public consumption.
22 THE COURT: How did it get there?
23 MR. DANDAR: That is a good question. And
24 Mr. Weinberg said the Church of Scientology hasn't
25 done that. That's his statement. Well, I haven't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1019
1 done it. I have not published it to the public at
2 all.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Well . . .
4 I just don't want to go there, to be saying
5 not publishing it.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't hear him say
7 Ms. Greenway isn't doing it, or somebody has gotten
8 copies, his consultants. I can tell you nobody from
9 our team of people in the Church of Scientology or my
10 law office --
11 THE COURT: It's a pretty good hearing,
12 isn't it?
13 MR. WEINBERG: It is pretty good.
14 THE COURT: Let the public see what's going
15 on.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't mind the public --
17 THE COURT: The reason I don't mind, I'm
18 pretty happy that we're doing a pretty fair hearing
19 here. If the public -- I don't like a witness reading
20 it.
21 MR. WEINBERG: That's all I'm --
22 THE COURT: Right. Which we can ask that.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, I'm -- look, I'm very
24 happy for people to read, you know, what we do, how we
25 ask questions, and stuff like that. That's not my
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1020
1 problem.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not concerned about the
4 public seeing this. I'm concerned about sequestered
5 witnesses reading it.
6 THE COURT: And as I said, we can ask that
7 question --
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I will.
9 THE COURT: Both sides can ask the witnesses
10 if they have been keeping up with this, and I'll have
11 to decide what I'm going to do about it.
12 Okay. Mr. Prince.
13 (Mr. Prince took the witness stand.)
14 THE COURT: Good morning.
15 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Day 31. This is the
17 11th, right?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Of the trial?
19 THE COURT: 7/11.
20 MR. WEINBERG: 7/11.
21 THE COURT: All right. You may continue,
22 Counselor.
23 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF JESSE PRINCE (RESUMED)
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Now, in the vein that we just talked, the Judge
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1021
1 and I, have -- since you have been back on the stand this
2 week, have you met with any of the witnesses or prospective
3 witnesses in this case?
4 THE COURT: Do you know who the
5 prospective -- does he know who they are?
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q I think -- well, the next witness is Frank
8 Oliver, and then there's Mr. Dandar. There's some secret
9 person that Mr. Dandar hasn't told us about -- maybe he's
10 told you -- and the prior witnesses were Peter Alexander,
11 what, Teresa Summers, Vaughn Young, Stacy Young, Bob
12 Minton, other people -- Brian Haney. Have you met with any
13 of those people?
14 A Not anything for the purposes of -- that's been
15 in relationship to this trial. I mean, I was here the day
16 that Mr. Haney was here, and we had lunch when he was
17 testifying. I think I was waiting outside the courtroom or
18 something.
19 THE COURT: The real question is, Have you
20 discussed with them their testimony or yours?
21 THE WITNESS: Oh, no.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Have you discussed, since you've been back on the
24 stand, your testimony with Mr. Dandar?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1022
1 Q Or Mr. Lirot? I'm sorry. I had trouble with his
2 name?
3 A No, Mr. Weinberg, I have not.
4 Q Or Ms. Greenway?
5 A No, Mr. Weinberg, I have not.
6 Q Okay.
7 A I followed the court instruction in that regard.
8 Q And have you had an opportunity to visit the --
9 the --
10 THE COURT: Unless Ms. Greenway is a
11 witness, she could technically -- technically I
12 suppose have chatted with her. If people under the
13 rule --
14 First of all, he's testified he ought not to
15 be discussing his testimony; the Court instructed him
16 so.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Let me ask you this. I mean, have you eaten -- I
19 mean, have you visited with, you know, Ms. Greenway or
20 Mr. Oliver or anybody like that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. Because they're friends?
23 A Correct.
24 Q When's the last time you saw Mr. Oliver?
25 A Last night.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1023
1 Q What were you doing with him last night?
2 A We had dinner. I invited him to a barbecue.
3 Q Did you know that he was going to be
4 testifying --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- after you?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And where was the barbecue?
9 A My house.
10 Q And who else was there?
11 A Mr. Lirot, Mrs. Greenway, my fiance.
12 THE COURT: It -- really and truly, this is
13 not your business. What is your business is
14 whether --
15 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to ask one last
16 question.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q And you all didn't talk about the case?
19 THE COURT: That isn't the question either.
20 It's whether he discussed anything about his
21 testimony. I mean, they can talk about the trial.
22 They can say -- we're all crazy to think that when
23 most people get together, they don't say, "What do you
24 think? Is the case going to be ready for trial?" But
25 the question is what's going on here.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1024
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Did you talk at all about your testimony or
3 Mr. Oliver's testimony?
4 A No. I followed the Court's instruction in that
5 regard.
6 Q Now, I touched on this a couple of days ago, but
7 I want to go back for just a minute and see if we can focus
8 more on the dates. After you left the Church of
9 Scientology at the end of October, beginning of November of
10 1992, there came a time when, in Minneapolis, you became
11 employed by a company called G & B. Is that right?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And that was a company -- is a company that is
14 run by a woman named Dana Hanson. Is that right?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And she is a public member of Scientology?
17 A To my knowledge at the time, yes.
18 Q All right. And you'd started working for her in
19 March of 1994, thereabouts, correct?
20 A I'd say that's a fair estimation of when I
21 started working for her.
22 Q And at first your then-wife had been referred to
23 her to work, right? Is that how it started?
24 A I believe, yes. I believe you're correct in
25 that.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1025
1 Q And the reference came from a staff member in the
2 Minneapolis Org?
3 A I'm not sure where the reference came from.
4 Q In any event, you began to work for this company,
5 right?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And you stayed at the company until the fall of
8 1995, when you were fired, right?
9 A Incorrect. I was never fired from that company.
10 Q You left the company in the fall of 1995?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, during this period of time, Ms. Hanson was
13 kind enough, for part of the time, to let you stay in her
14 house. Right?
15 MR. DANDAR: Objection to relevancy.
16 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Well, during the time that you were employed by
19 Ms. Hanson -- oh, by the way, this company was run pursuant
20 to Hubbard technology, correct?
21 A Not per se, but she wanted it to. She wanted me
22 to run it according to Hubbard technology.
23 Q And --
24 A It hadn't been like that before.
25 Q And briefly, that means what?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1026
1 A Getting people to disclose intimate details about
2 themselves because this was, you know, a Scientology belief
3 that, you know, if you tell intimate details about yourself
4 or things that you wouldn't necessarily want made public,
5 then it'll somehow make you feel better and increase your
6 production.
7 Q And --
8 A That's one thing. Another part was to sit people
9 down and have them study the writings of Mrs. Hanson
10 concerning how the company should operate and make sure
11 that they understood all the words that she had written.
12 And also, she wanted me to do like a class, a classroom for
13 doing the TRs, the training routines that I mentioned
14 earlier in my testimony that's part of Scientology
15 training --
16 Q Okay.
17 A -- that kind of thing.
18 Q And the idea was the company would run more
19 efficiently, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Okay. Now, during the course of your year and a
22 half or so with the company, there came a time when you
23 admitted to Ms. Hanson that you had engaged in extensive
24 unethical behavior, in violation of moral codes that were
25 adhered to by Scientologists pursuant to this Hubbard
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1027
1 technology, correct?
2 MR. DANDAR: Objection. This is nothing but
3 to try to embarrass and denigrate Mr. Prince --
4 THE COURT: What's the point of this?
5 MR. WEINBERG: The point is that Mr. Prince
6 said on direct that he couldn't work because of the
7 Church of Scientology, that he lost his job as a
8 result of the Church of Scientology. That's what he
9 said.
10 THE COURT: That has nothing to do with this
11 hearing. The objection is sustained.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q What was the reason that you left in October of
14 '95?
15 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
16 THE COURT: I'll allow that.
17 A I left because I didn't want to practice -- I
18 didn't want to do that -- do the things, the Scientology
19 things, in the company. I just wanted to be normal, just
20 do what a company does, instead of adding a Scientology
21 slant to it.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q All right. So the Church, no staff member, had
24 anything to do with you being terminated from your job.
25 You just --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1028
1 A I think I mentioned I was not terminated from my
2 job, Mr. Weinberg.
3 Q When you terminated from your job, no staff
4 member had anything to do with it.
5 A I couldn't hear you. There was noise going on.
6 Q I said no staff member in any Church of
7 Scientology had anything to do with you leaving your job.
8 Is that right?
9 A No. That's categorically false. Mr. Sutter from
10 the Religious Technology Center, after I would not do the
11 Scientological things in that company, together with
12 Ms. Hanson --
13 THE COURT: This is just not relevant.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I mean, a lot of
15 that answer --
16 THE COURT: It is not relevant to this
17 proceeding, so you're not going to go into why he left
18 the job. It just doesn't matter.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q Now, you said yesterday that you had -- you
22 accused the Church yesterday of having made you sign
23 undated resignations, resignation letters, which were then
24 dated on the date that you were busted from the RTC.
25 Correct?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1029
1 A Correct.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Now, let me show you --
3 Do we have the resignation letters? Are
4 they in evidence?
5 MR. DANDAR: While they're looking for that,
6 Judge, did you say this is Day 31?
7 THE COURT: If what Mr. Weinberg said
8 yesterday, that that was Day 30, then this would be
9 Day 31. I couldn't keep up with it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: May I approach the clerk?
11 THE COURT: You may.
12 MR. WEINBERG: This is 242 (handing), your
13 Honor.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q I've showed you what we've marked as 242 --
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- Defendant's 242. Can you look at those and
18 tell me if those are copies of the three resignation
19 letters which you signed on March 3rd, 1987?
20 A Yes, they are.
21 Q Now, you are familiar, are you not, with a dot
22 matrix printer? Do you know what that is? Do you remember
23 the printers back 13 or 14 years ago?
24 A Yes, I believe I know what you're talking about.
25 Q Right. And this letter -- you can tell that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1030
1 these letters were typed on dot matrix printers. They were
2 printed out on dot matrix printers. You can even see on
3 the side, the column, some of the holes? Do you see that?
4 They line up exactly on the three letters, right?
5 A Okay.
6 Q And it's impossible to have typed up a letter on
7 a dot matrix printer years before and then run it back
8 through and put a date on it years later. That's
9 impossible, isn't it?
10 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Outside of his
11 expertise.
12 THE COURT: Do you know the answer to that?
13 THE WITNESS: No. But I know the answer to
14 why these documents have this date on here.
15 THE COURT: Okay. If he can't answer that
16 question, he can't answer it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I move these into evidence,
18 your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, can I have this?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. She has it.
22 THE COURT: What is the number, please?
23 MR. WEINBERG: It's 242.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Now, in your direct testimony, you made a big
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1031
1 point about the CSWs, the completed staff work, you know,
2 like the purchase orders. Do you know what I'm talking
3 about?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q And --
6 A I didn't make a big deal out of it. I think I
7 explained it.
8 Q Well, the point was, you said that in order to --
9 for the medical liaison office to buy, you know, chloral
10 hydrate, you would have to have a CSW or purchase order
11 issued. Correct?
12 A Right.
13 Q And then you drew some conclusion. Because there
14 wasn't any purchase order, your conclusion was that that
15 hadn't happened? Was that what your conclusion was?
16 A I do not believe that that was my conclusion.
17 Q In any event, you're familiar, are you not, with
18 cash floats? Do you know what that is?
19 A Sure.
20 Q And are you familiar with the policy that
21 provides for a float for the MLO? Are you familiar with
22 that?
23 A I am not.
24 Q Explain to the Court what a float is.
25 A Well, I mean, if you have a policy there, I mean,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1032
1 I --
2 THE COURT: He just wants you to tell me
3 what a float is, if you know.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q I thought you just said you did.
7 A Well, not in the -- I don't think -- maybe I
8 misspoke, because I don't understand the context you're
9 talking about float here.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I'll have it
11 marked.
12 Could you mark this as 243, I believe.
13 This would be 243, your Honor (handing).
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Now, I've handed you a -- Defendant's 243, which
17 is Flag Order 3082R, November 15th, 1971, with regard to
18 medical finance. And do you see that this policy
19 reinstates in every Sea Organization the use of a $1,000
20 medical float? Do you see that?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q And do you understand what that means?
23 A Yes, I do. But this does not negate someone else
24 that has a medical emergency, as stated in that CSW exhibit
25 that we put in for medical emergencies, of what it has to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1033
1 go through.
2 Q Well, do you understand that what this is saying
3 is that for every Sea Organization, including -- which
4 would include Flag Services, correct, Fort Harrison?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Right. That for every organization, the MLO, the
7 medical liaison office, has a $1,000 float from which they
8 don't have to issue these CSWs and purchase orders and can
9 go get what they need? Do you understand that?
10 A Well, hang on a second, because I'm looking at
11 this second page here, and it says since the medical
12 officer has the authority in the Org more than anyone else
13 under need of these purchases, he does not need division
14 reapproval. He does not have to have a CSW for his money.
15 Division 3 just disburses the money each time. A simple
16 red purchase order stating $1,000 for a medical float is
17 sufficient to get the money.
18 Now, what this is specifically referring to is a
19 medical officer having this float, but there's another
20 policy letter in Scientology that's in Division 3 that has
21 to do with accounting. Even though this medical officer
22 would have this float, he would still have to account in
23 detail where the last $1,000 went as well.
24 Q Well, look at under "essential data." Do you see
25 where it says this policy -- this medical float policy is
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1034
1 established to prevent the medical officer from having to
2 spend much time or worry on finance?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you understand that the whole concept of every
5 time I had to go get chloral hydrate for a parishioner that
6 needed it, that I would have to fill out some CSW, that
7 that might not be a very efficient way to help people and
8 that that's what this float policy is all about?
9 A Well, you know, I understand what you're saying
10 in theory and, you know, I don't -- I really don't think
11 it's a common practice.
12 THE COURT: Are you saying that when you go
13 back and get more -- $1,000 float money that they're
14 going to want to see what you spent the money for?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: And how are you going to account
17 for that? With receipts or what?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Now, have you ever been a medical liaison
21 officer?
22 A No, I have not.
23 THE COURT: I mean, this sounds to me like a
24 petty cash fund of sorts.
25 MR. WEINBERG: That's exactly --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1035
1 THE COURT: When you have a petty cash fund,
2 you still -- if it's a $1,000 petty cash fund, you're
3 going to have to show somebody what it is you spent
4 the money on.
5 MR. DANDAR: I also object. The last
6 sentence on this document talks about it's only for
7 the crew. They hadn't mentioned anything about public
8 members.
9 THE COURT: Well, you can bring that up on
10 cross-examination.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I was just raising this
13 because of the testimony on direct, that you needed a
14 CSW. This policy says you don't need a CSW.
15 THE COURT: I frankly didn't even remember
16 it, so . . .
17 MR. WEINBERG: You do now, right?
18 THE COURT: I do now.
19 MR. WEINBERG: And then I'll just show
20 you --
21 Then I'll mark, just so it's in the record
22 the -- as the next exhibit@.
23 THE CLERK: 244.
24 MR. WEINBERG: 244, take one second (handing
25 to Court and witness).
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1036
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q The Modern Management Technology Defined:
3 Hubbard Dictionary of Administration and Management. You
4 know about that dictionary, right, Mr. Prince?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q If you go to "medical float," do you see on
7 page 329, it says: "With this float, the medical officer
8 buys doctor-dentist-medical-health specialist visits and
9 treatment, laboratory analysis, X rays, medical equipment
10 essential for a person's health, medicines, prescriptions,
11 and transportation." Do you see that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So something like a prescription for chloral
14 hydrate would be covered by the medical float, would it
15 not?
16 A This references this same Flag order. I gave
17 testimony that a Flag order has to do with Sea Org
18 personnel. It has to do with people that are on staff in
19 the Sea Org.
20 Q So -- so the MLO officer has to get a purchase
21 order to go get chloral hydrate for a parishioner who is
22 staying at the Fort Harrison, but if he or she doesn't --
23 if a Sea Org member is at the Fort Harrison? Is that your
24 testimony?
25 A My testimony is the evidence that you've given me
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1037
1 here states specifically that this is how it is done for
2 staff members. The public, being a paying public,
3 certainly have different policies.
4 THE COURT: To be candid with you, I think
5 it's been conceded that -- by somebody that Lisa
6 McPherson should not have been to the hotel. Hasn't
7 that been conceded?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think conceded.
9 I think people were trying --
10 THE COURT: To suggest that it really ought
11 not to have been taken care of --
12 MR. WEINBERG: It would have been a smarter
13 thing to be in a different environment.
14 THE COURT: Right. So you have to assume
15 that the medical that they're talking about in this --
16 I'll ask Mr. Prince this.
17 You have to assume that normally it's going
18 to be Sea Org members who are going to be taken care
19 of because they're the ones that would be living in a
20 Scientology facility.
21 THE WITNESS: Correct.
22 THE COURT: But at some place like Flag,
23 where they have maybe -- I guess you have to be a Sea
24 Org member to come there and take the technology
25 courses that they offered.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1038
1 THE WITNESS: No, you don't have to be --
2 THE COURT: Right. So if somebody is
3 there -- there, and they have to get a -- I mean, I
4 don't know what -- they get sick and somebody is
5 called in and they need some minor medicine, I would
6 assume that they would allow this policy to govern,
7 rather than have to go through all the harangue of
8 whatever it was you were talking about. But I think
9 that whatever it is, you're going to still,
10 nonetheless, account for whatever it is you bought out
11 of your petty cash fund or your float fund or whatever
12 you want to call it.
13 THE WITNESS: Sure. And the other thing,
14 your Honor, is that in no way will a Scientology
15 organization pay the medical expenses of a public
16 paying staff member, a public person coming in, using
17 services in Scientology. You know, the money works
18 the other way. The public gives the money to
19 Scientology. Scientology doesn't then --
20 THE COURT: Well, we know they were using
21 Ms. McPherson's money to pay for certain things
22 because she eventually ran out.
23 THE WITNESS: Correct.
24 THE COURT: So presumably everything was
25 subject. I mean, if she was really in a bad
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1039
1 situation, a psychotic, where she couldn't -- you
2 know, they apparently were free to use her funds, I
3 guess.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 THE COURT: So you can't really tell us,
6 under the circumstances that we're dealing with here,
7 whether chloral hydrate was necessarily purchased out
8 of the float money or whether it was purchased with
9 this CSW.
10 THE WITNESS: Correct.
11 THE COURT: Would that be fair?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Just a few more questions,
14 one more area.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Back to the gun situation just for a moment.
17 Yesterday when we talked about this or the day before --
18 I've sort of lost count now -- you sort of suggested that
19 it was more of a -- of a joke, that you really weren't that
20 serious.
21 THE COURT: What was a joke?
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q That you weren't really threatening anybody.
24 THE COURT: What are you talking about?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry, the gun, when
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1040
1 he says he pulled the guns on David Miscavige.
2 A I didn't say anything about a joke. I said I did
3 it out of self-protection.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q All right. So --
6 A That's the testimony that I gave from this stand.
7 Q Well, I thought I heard you say that you didn't
8 really threaten anybody.
9 A I can't help what you thought you heard, but I
10 can tell you right now that when -- after -- what I
11 testified to in this courtroom is that after those people
12 grabbed me and I got away from them, I went to my room and
13 got these weapons to protect myself. It wasn't a joke to
14 me at that point.
15 Q And when you first told -- do you remember when
16 you first told this story about guns? That was in the
17 FACTNet deposition, which was the first deposition I
18 think -- was that the first deposition you gave after you
19 became a witness against Scientology?
20 MR. DANDAR: Objection to form.
21 THE COURT: No, that's all right.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 THE COURT: Overruled.
24 A I'm not sure.
25 BY MR. WEINBERG:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1041
1 Q All right. Do you remember in that deposition
2 that you said something to the effect that bodies were
3 going to start dropping?
4 A If you have it, you know, I'd like to see it.
5 Q Okay.
6 A If you just have it, you show it to me, and I'll
7 tell you what I said.
8 Q We'll play a short clip, you'll have it, and then
9 I'll have a couple of questions.
10 A Okay.
11 THE COURT: A short clip from what? A
12 deposition?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Of his deposition. It's his
14 deposition.
15 THE COURT: In this case?
16 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's his deposition in
17 the FACTNet case. It will take just a minute, I
18 think.
19 MR. DANDAR: Apparently need it brighter.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm amazed she can pull this
21 stuff up.
22 THE WITNESS: Right in this room, I'm having
23 a difficult time. I think I'd better go around.
24 THE COURT: Sure. Wait a minute.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Wait just one second.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1042
1 (The witness left the stand,)
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 (The tape was played as follows.)
5 FROM THE DEPOSITION OF JESSE PRINCE
6 DATED AUGUST 20, 1998
7 A And I went to my room, where I had a loaded .45
8 and a loaded Mini 14, and I came back to David Miscavige's
9 office with those guns. And I said, "Which one of you
10 wants to fuck with me now?"
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q And what happened? I'm sitting here with bated
13 breath thinking -- to hear the end of the story.
14 A Well, do you want me to tell it or do you want --
15 Q No, I'm (unintelligible) the answer to that
16 question that you raised.
17 A Well, I'm confused now. What question did I
18 raise?
19 Q You posed a question to Mr. Miscavige that "which
20 one of you wants to F with me now?"
21 A Right. So at this point Vicki comes running out:
22 "Jesse, no, no, no, it's all been sanctioned by Annie
23 Broker. She knows about everything. And Pat Broker. She
24 knows about everything. Don't do this."
25 Then here comes David Miscavige. He completely
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1043
1 changes his tune now: "Oh, Jesse," you know, "we've been
2 friends and we've gone through so much. Let's not go here.
3 It's a mistake what we've done here. I know you're upset.
4 Please let's talk about it."
5 And I stood there looking at them with my guns in
6 my hand, wondering. You know, like you can pat a snake on
7 the head, but as soon as you pull your hand back, he going
8 to bite. And I was wondering if that was going to happen
9 to me as I'm sitting here with these guns.
10 And, you know, David is like pleading. Then it
11 turns into a situation like, "Well," you know, "we've got
12 lots of guns too."
13 And I said, "What the hell do you all want to do,
14 have a shootout? Because I've got guns here, and bodies
15 are going to start dropping."
16 (End of tape. The witness returned to the
17 stand)
18 MR. DANDAR: I object. It's apples and
19 oranges. It doesn't even go to try to impeach the
20 witness.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, first --
22 THE COURT: I don't know what the purpose
23 was, so we'll hear now.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Yesterday or the day before, July 9th, when I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1044
1 asked you the question about whether you threatened to kill
2 Mr. Miscavige, you said, quote, "I didn't threaten to kill
3 Mr. Miscavige."
4 Now, when you told that story to Mr. Rosen at
5 that August 1998 deposition, you said in front of
6 Mr. Miscavige, you know, "Bodies are going to start
7 dropping," or something like that. Right? I mean, you
8 said that --
9 A The video speaks for itself, and I don't contest
10 it. I mean, that's -- what I said is what happened, is
11 what I meant. So you can take it any way you want.
12 Q Now, when you said a Mini 14 --
13 THE COURT: A what?
14 MR. WEINBERG: A Mini 14.
15 THE COURT: What do we care about this,
16 about these guns?
17 MR. WEINBERG: About --
18 THE COURT: About something that went on
19 between him and -- way back when.
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's just the opposite,
21 your Honor. We don't believe this incident ever
22 happened and that he just made this up for reasons
23 that one can only imagine when he told this story for
24 the first time in August of 1998. But, your Honor, I
25 mean --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1045
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Let me ask you. A Mini 14 is an assault rifle,
3 right?
4 A Correct.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Bailiff, could I possibly
6 have our model there?
7 This is just a replica.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: It's plastic. It's plastic.
10 It's not real.
11 MR. DANDAR: I just wish -- I just wish the
12 St. Pete Times was here with their camera to see this.
13 I think this is an unbelievable game --
14 THE COURT: Is that an objection?
15 MR. DANDAR: -- of showmanship. It's
16 irrelevant.
17 THE COURT: What is the point?
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q (Showing) Is that what you're talking about?
20 Something like that?
21 A Similar to, but not quite.
22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I'm going to give
23 you this back.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q And you still contend that that's what you pulled
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1046
1 on Mr. Miscavige and the other twelve people that were
2 there. Right?
3 A Mr. Weinberg, I stand behind the testimony that
4 I've given about that incident in the past and anything
5 I've said --
6 Q All right.
7 A -- in this hearing.
8 Q And then they just let you go right back to your
9 room and put the guns in your room?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And they didn't take them away from you?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And they just stayed there for the next, what,
14 five years?
15 A No. I eventually sold the Mini 14.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I don't have any
17 further questions, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. Redirect?
19 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Well, we ought to pick it up right where
23 Mr. Weinberg just left off.
24 (Mr. Weinberg spoke to Mr. Dandar off the
25 record.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1047
1 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to wait?
2 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. I just don't
3 want to interrupt you.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q When you had these two real guns loaded as you
6 described when you were being, quote, busted, unquote,
7 Mr. Miscavige came right up to you while you held the two
8 guns in your hands, correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And did you or he laugh?
11 A Laugh?
12 Q Laugh.
13 A Like laugh?
14 Q Yes, like laugh.
15 A No.
16 Q Did Mr. Miscavige say -- indicate to you any fear
17 whatsoever?
18 A No.
19 Q And then you turned around and walked back to
20 your room?
21 A Correct. I believe he may have even followed me
22 there. And we then proceeded to that area of the ship
23 where we saw the pictures with the swimming pool, with the
24 mast, and we had a conversation there.
25 Q Did you sit around the pool?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1048
1 A Well, actually, there's an area inside that's
2 air-conditioned, has a bar in there, and we actually sat in
3 there and drank cold water and ate fruit.
4 Q And when Mr. Weinberg -- or, you said that Vicki
5 Aznaran, the president of the RTC, told you that this had
6 all been sanctioned by Annie and Pat Broker, did she
7 accompany you to the RPF after that?
8 A Yes, and other people for sure.
9 Q Because she took the Annie and Pat Broker side,
10 rather than the David Miscavige power struggle side?
11 A Correct.
12 Q You're going to the RPF, Mr. Prince. Did it have
13 anything to do with any mistakes you made in applying the
14 tech of Scientology?
15 A Absolutely not.
16 THE COURT: What does this all have to do
17 with anything I'm hearing?
18 MR. DANDAR: Just trying to straighten out
19 some misconceptions. My computer just went onto
20 standby. That's not what I wanted to happen. All
21 right.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, when you left Scientology, did you just walk
24 out the door in '92?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1049
1 Q How did you leave?
2 A I had to basically sign a release saying that
3 Scientology has never done anything wrong with me and has
4 no liability for anything that I may be suffering then or
5 could realize in the future and on and on and on --
6 THE COURT: Wasn't that release introduced
7 yesterday?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: So it said whatever it said.
11 MR. DANDAR: Well, I wanted to ask him a
12 question about it, and you can see my paralegal is not
13 here, so I'm flying.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q That release says that you were releasing the
16 Church of Scientology from any and all damages for valuable
17 consideration. There's two or three paragraphs that say
18 that.
19 A M'hum (affirmative).
20 Q What valuable consideration did you receive from
21 the Church of Scientology to sign that release?
22 MR. WEINBERG: It was asked and answered.
23 He explained --
24 THE WITNESS: No, I never answered this.
25 THE COURT: Just a second.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1050
1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, asked and answered
2 by Mr. Dandar. I didn't go back into it. It's beyond
3 the scope. But he already -- Mr. Prince already
4 explained how much money he got in return for signing
5 the release on direct.
6 THE COURT: He did?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. He said --
8 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
9 MR. DANDAR: Shhh.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I thought he said a thousand
11 plus dollars.
12 THE COURT: I don't remember it, so I'm
13 going to allow him to ask it. I don't remember it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I might have brain
15 drain.
16 MR. DANDAR: I think you're talking about
17 some meeting in December of '94.
18 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't think so.
19 THE COURT: That was more than a thousand.
20 THE WITNESS: Twenty-seven.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I really think he did, but it
22 doesn't matter.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Well, did you receive anything of consideration
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1051
1 to sign those releases?
2 A I think I received $2,000.
3 Q Okay. From whom?
4 A Good question. Marty just handed me the money.
5 Q Well, do you have any idea why it's not mentioned
6 in the release?
7 A I do not.
8 THE COURT: Most releases don't tell you
9 what. Most releases say "ten dollars and other
10 valuable consideration," don't they?
11 MR. DANDAR: Not the ones that I've seen,
12 Judge.
13 THE COURT: Most of the ones I've seen do,
14 because I always wondered why they pick ten dollars.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Prince, how is it that Ms. Dana Hanson wanted
17 to -- picked you to come into her public business and set
18 up her business to run the Hubbard tech?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to competency.
20 I mean, how is it that this woman --
21 THE COURT: I'll sustain that. Quite
22 frankly, I suspect that he's already testified he was
23 one of the premier experts on the tech. So I mean, I
24 think I can assume that.
25 MR. DANDAR: Okay. If you can assume that,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1052
1 I'll go on.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Now, Mr. Prince, you were --
4 THE COURT: I can't assume that, but, I
5 mean, that is the testimony that he has put forth.
6 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
7 THE COURT: So . . .
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Mr. Prince, is there any other reason as far as
10 you know -- without telling us what other people said -- is
11 there any other reason as far as you know as to why Dana
12 Hanson hired you, other than your expertise on the tech?
13 A You know, there --
14 THE COURT: If you don't know --
15 A I don't know the reason.
16 THE COURT: Remember yesterday, that's a
17 perfectly valid answer in a court of law, "I don't
18 know."
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. I don't know of any
20 other reason.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Mr. Prince, you wanted to tell Mr. Weinberg a
23 little while ago why the date of March 3, 1987, appears on
24 all three resignation letters which is Defendant's
25 Exhibit 242. Why does the date appear on there?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1053
1 A Because after me and Mr. Miscavige had our little
2 chat on the ship area after the gun incident, he said, you
3 know: "We have your undated resignation, but just help
4 us," you know, "do everything right now." You know:
5 "We're talking again. You're going to take this fall;
6 you're going to do this. Would you please just do it again
7 and sign these new ones?"
8 And I said, "Yes, I'll do it."
9 So that's why these are signed this way.
10 Q So there exists other resignation letters that
11 are undated?
12 A Yes, correct.
13 Q Have you seen those? Have they been produced to
14 you ever?
15 A Not today.
16 Q Have you ever seen them before this?
17 A Sure.
18 Q Where?
19 A In the Religious Technology Center in my office,
20 where I signed it. I also saw it in David Miscavige's
21 office on the day that I was removed from the executive
22 position of Religious Technology Center.
23 Q Okay. So on the resignation letters that are in
24 evidence, those are the ones you actually signed on
25 March 3rd of 1987?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1054
1 A Correct.
2 Q Okay. And you did that because your friend David
3 Miscavige asked you to do it?
4 A Correct.
5 Q You weren't threatened and forced to do it?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Were you being a good Scientologist when you
8 signed that?
9 A Absolutely.
10 Q All right. Now, Mr. Houghton, who is a defendant
11 in this case, who is in the MLO office, who is the one that
12 came up with the idea of using a syringe to get aspirin and
13 Benadryl --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. First
15 of all, to the form; he's just testifying. Secondly,
16 he's misstating the testimony. And thirdly, it's
17 beyond the scope of my cross-examination. I didn't
18 ask anything about Mr. Houghton.
19 THE COURT: I suspect he's going to go back
20 to the CSW that you felt compelled to raise in some
21 fashion.
22 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. But then --
23 MR. DANDAR: How do you know that?
24 MR. WEINBERG: -- I object to the form.
25 Then I object to the form, as he's just making a
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1055
1 speech.
2 THE COURT: Your objection to form is
3 overruled because he's not. He's trying to provide
4 some background to see if this witness can answer a
5 question.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Mr. Houghton stated on page 71 of his deposition,
8 where the question begins on line 18, as follows.
9 Question --
10 THE COURT: You folks back there, I can hear
11 you clear up here, so it must be disconcerting to
12 Mr. Dandar. So keep your voices down. Or you may
13 step out of the room at anytime you need to speak in a
14 loud voice.
15 Go ahead.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Question: "And where did you get the money to
18 buy the prescription?"
19 Answer: "I got it from Alain Kartuzinski."
20 Question: "And why did you go to him to get the
21 money?"
22 Answer: "I didn't have the personal funds to pay
23 for it. I didn't know. I don't know exactly why I went to
24 Alain. I don't know what events led me up to getting the
25 money from Alain, but I do know that's where I got the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1056
1 money."
2 The question is, Is Mr. Kartuzinski, back in
3 November and December of 1995, pursuant to his testimony in
4 this case, part of the MLO?
5 A No.
6 Q What was he?
7 A He was the Senior CS --
8 THE COURT: I'll tell counsel what you
9 really don't have to do is ask this witness that. I
10 would know that.
11 MR. DANDAR: Sorry.
12 THE COURT: You can save a lot of this for
13 closing argument.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right. There's so much of
15 that.
16 All right. That takes care of this part.
17 Let's put this away.
18 THE COURT: Is this a witness, by chance,
19 that has just come in?
20 A SPEAKER: (Shook head negatively.) No,
21 your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Welcome then. I didn't
23 want somebody to come in that was maybe going to
24 testify.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1057
1 Q All right. Mr. Prince, in your tenure in
2 Clearwater at the Lisa McPherson Trust, did you ever see
3 the Church of Scientology picketing the Lisa McPherson
4 Trust?
5 A Absolutely. You know -- yes. Yes, many times.
6 Q Would they do it in front of the building, the
7 office?
8 A They would do it in front of the building. They
9 would do it inside the building. There's many police
10 reports of Scientologists running and screaming, disrupting
11 activities. Again, my friend -- my good friend, Judge
12 Penick, can speak about that. And we watched videos for
13 days. He would be a great witness about that.
14 Q Okay. All right. Do you know if anyone from the
15 Lisa McPherson Trust hired private investigators to follow
16 Church members around?
17 A Never.
18 Q Go to their homes and picket their homes?
19 A Never.
20 Q Pass out leaflets in their neighborhood?
21 A No.
22 Q Now, even though you left the Church of
23 Scientology, have you ever divulged the confidential PC
24 folders of the people that you either audited or were a
25 case supervisor over?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1058
1 A No, I have not, never.
2 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg went back and talked to you
3 about your deposition that you gave on behalf of Religious
4 Technology Center, where their former attorney, Joseph
5 Yanny, was suing them or RTC was suing him. I'm not sure.
6 Do you remember which way that was?
7 A I don't remember which way it was going.
8 Q Okay. But anyway, that was back in 1989, while
9 you were still in your demoted status?
10 A You know, that had been some years past that,
11 yes.
12 Q Okay. And when you met -- you said you met with
13 Mr. Earle Cooley, the attorney for RTC, before your
14 deposition commenced?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Do you also recall meeting with a person by the
17 name of Lynn Farney?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And the reason why I know this is it's in your
20 deposition copy that Mr. Weinberg gave me. Before today --
21 in fact, as you sit here today, have you ever seen a copy
22 of that deposition?
23 A No.
24 Q That deposition is dated September 11th of 1989.
25 Mr. Weinberg questioned you in your deposition in this case
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1059
1 that was taken in '99, ten years after the RTC deposition.
2 Do you remember him questioning you about that deposition?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did he give you a copy of that deposition back
5 then?
6 A No.
7 Q Now, Mr. Farney, do you know -- back at the time
8 that he and Mr. Cooley, the attorney, met with you before
9 the RTC deposition, do you know what position he had?
10 A Mr. Farney had been on a Rehabilitation Project
11 Force with myself. Mr. Lynn Farney is a person that I used
12 to create and establish the Office of Special Affairs at
13 International. I had --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, he just asked him
15 what position he was in at the time that he supposedly
16 had this meeting with him. Now we're getting the
17 whole history. Can he just answer the question,
18 please?
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q At the time of his deposition, what was his
22 position?
23 A Mr. Farney was working in OSA International. It
24 was my belief that Mr. Farney was working in OSA
25 International.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1060
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I must have missed
2 the beginning of this. What did you initially ask
3 him? If Mr. Farney was --
4 MR. DANDAR: Part of the meeting preparing
5 Mr. Prince for deposition in the RTC case.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. DANDAR: RTC slash Yanny, Y-a-n-n-e-y.
8 THE WITNESS: Y-a-n-n-y.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Mr. Farney is someone that you worked with in
12 establishing the Office of Special Affairs?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Do you remember what year that was?
15 A '84. '83, '84.
16 Q Okay. And are you aware that Mr. Farney is also
17 the person who met with all the staff members after Lisa
18 McPherson's death?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor --
20 A No, I was not aware of that.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form. He's
22 testifying.
23 THE COURT: True. Sustained. However, he
24 wasn't aware of it, so --
25 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. It's just --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1061
1 THE COURT: Remember, questions aren't
2 evidence, only the answers.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Now, in that meeting before your deposition, who
5 instructed you to avoid telling the truth in your
6 deposition?
7 A Mr. Rathbun and Mr. Cooley.
8 THE COURT: Is it Rathburn or Rathbun?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Bun.
10 THE COURT: Bun.
11 THE WITNESS: Rathbun.
12 THE COURT: B-u-n.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
14 MR. DANDAR: And it's Ms. Brooks, not
15 Mrs. Brooks. Never mind.
16 MR. WEINBERG: R-a-t-h-b-u-n.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. All right.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did it surprise you when Mr. Cooley and
20 Mr. Rathbun were giving you instructions on not telling the
21 truth?
22 A No, it did not.
23 Q And why is that?
24 A Because it's expected.
25 Q Why is that?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1062
1 A Because you have to protect Scientology. You
2 have to protect -- you know, it's like placing Scientology
3 and Scientologists at risk being a crime. You have -- you
4 are expected as a member of the Church of Scientology to do
5 and say whatever you have to to preserve Scientology, to
6 preserve its leaders.
7 Q Is that a written policy?
8 A Probably.
9 Q And Mr. Yanny --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, could we
11 just identify that policy if that's a written policy?
12 He said "probably."
13 THE COURT: I assume probably he couldn't
14 tell us --
15 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
16 THE COURT: -- or he would have given us a
17 number.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Can you tell us -- without giving a number, but
21 can you tell us generally what policy you're talking about?
22 A As I sit here today without the materials, I
23 could not, but I could certainly submit a declaration on it
24 at a later point.
25 Q All right. What is an acceptable truth?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1063
1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. I
2 didn't ask him about --
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Beyond the scope.
5 THE COURT: I think he already -- didn't you
6 already ask that on direct?
7 MR. DANDAR: I did, I did.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, you said --
10 THE COURT: Didn't you also testify about
11 the greatest good for the greatest number?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I did.
13 THE COURT: So we've heard, I think, a lot
14 of that.
15 MR. DANDAR: You have, I'm sorry.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Were you working for RTC at the time of that
18 deposition in 1989?
19 A No, I was not.
20 Q Well, Mr. Yanny was the former president -- or,
21 attorney for RTC, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Why was he suing RTC? What was that litigation
24 about?
25 A You know, what I recall about that is that when
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1064
1 Joseph Yanny was hired, he was hired by myself and
2 Ms. Aznaran as the lead counsel for the Religious
3 Technology Center. When he was hired --
4 THE COURT: Who was? I'm sorry.
5 THE WITNESS: Mr. Joseph Yanny, the attorney
6 that was hired.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Yanny was an attorney?
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
11 MR. DANDAR: In fact, Judge --
12 Did we mark that as an exhibit at
13 deposition? I'd like to have that marked as an
14 exhibit since it was used. But Mr. Yanny is the one
15 that actually took over questioning of Mr. Prince on
16 the pertinent pages that Mr. Weinberg pointed out,
17 although Mr. Yanny had his own attorney there. He
18 took it over because Mr. Yanny -- like me and
19 Mr. Lirot. I have all this stuff in my head and I
20 know what's going on.
21 So the transcript -- and I'd like to make
22 that -- and I will make it an exhibit if it's not --
23 shows that Mr. Yanny took over the questioning of
24 Mr. Prince in that 1989 deposition.
25 THE COURT: Normally we don't use as an
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1065
1 exhibit something that is just strictly used for
2 impeachment purposes.
3 MR. WEINBERG: That's why I didn't do it.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 MR. DANDAR: All right.
6 THE COURT: But if you want to make it an
7 exhibit, why, that's your -- you can try to do that.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Mr. Prince, you stated to Mr. Weinberg --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, let me object. I
12 mean, let me intercede for just a second. Just so
13 it's clear, Mr. Yanny was the party, was the
14 plaintiff. And I think that was clear, but I'm not
15 sure if it was.
16 THE COURT: I got it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: RTC was the defendant.
18 THE COURT: I didn't realize Mr. Yanny was a
19 lawyer. That's why I --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q So you hired Mr. Yanny to be the attorney for
23 RTC?
24 A Mr. Yanny was -- yes, I did, to be the lead
25 counsel for RTC. RTC had other attorneys, but Mr. Yanny
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1066
1 was hired to be the lead counsel for the Religious
2 Technology Center at that time.
3 Q And is it for any particular case?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Object. Your Honor, I
5 believe this is all beyond the scope. All I did was
6 impeach him on his false testimony, which he admitted
7 was false in that deposition. Now to get to the
8 history of that lawsuit or Joseph Yanny I think is
9 beyond the scope and not relevant to this proceeding
10 either.
11 THE COURT: I would tend to agree with that,
12 Counsel. You know, if you think it's relevant and
13 there's something you can tell me about this, I'll
14 listen to you. But it's just another one of these
15 lawsuits, many, many lawsuits.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Mr. Prince, do you know whether or not any of the
19 allegations made between RTC and Joseph Yanny had anything
20 to do with Mr. Yanny perjuring himself or suborning
21 perjury?
22 THE COURT: That would be relevant.
23 A I don't know. I don't remember it.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q You don't?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1067
1 A No.
2 Q All right. Now, did Mr. Yanny have anything to
3 do with any of the Wollersheim litigation?
4 A Yes, he did. The Wollersheim --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. That was a yes or
6 no question, and to -- if we get into the details, I'm
7 going to object because it's beyond the scope and it's
8 not relevant.
9 THE COURT: That would be true.
10 MR. DANDAR: Except he brought up the
11 question, Mr. Weinberg did, about Mr. Prince's
12 testimony of destruction of the PC folders.
13 THE COURT: Oh, right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: And I impeached him on it
15 with the Yanny deposition. He admitted it. He said
16 he lied in the deposition. That's all I used it for.
17 THE COURT: Well, I think at this point
18 we'll see what his question is.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Was Mr. Yanny involved in representing RTC
22 against Mr. Wollersheim?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And was Mr. Yanny involved when Mr. Wollersheim's
25 PC folders were destroyed?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1068
1 A He had no personal knowledge of it.
2 Q Was any attorney for Scientology involved in that
3 in any degree?
4 A The only one that I know of that would have had
5 information about that would have been Mr. Earle Cooley.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, "would have had."
7 I mean, is he saying he did have?
8 THE WITNESS: I can explain if you would
9 like me to.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Go ahead. Explain it.
12 A The decision to do this was made in a conference
13 room at Author Services with myself, Vicki Asnaran,
14 Mr. Rathbun was there, Mr. Cooley was there, and this all
15 has to do with --
16 THE COURT: Mr. Miscavige was there?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. And
18 this had --
19 THE COURT: Who else was there?
20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Lyman
21 Spurlock I believe was there, myself, Vicki Aznaran,
22 Mr. Cooley, Marty Rathbun. And we were sitting in the
23 conference room discussing it. Mr. Starkey may have
24 been there, Mr. Norman Starkey.
25 THE COURT: This is when you discussed
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1069
1 destruction of these records?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: So Mr. Cooley would have heard
4 this? Is that what you're saying?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q And whose idea was it to destroy the records?
9 A As best as I can recall, it was Ms. Aznaran that
10 said, "We have to destroy the folders." Mr. Miscavige and
11 everyone else agreed, so that's what was done.
12 Q And did the folders contain information that
13 would hurt the Church of Scientology?
14 A Yes, it -- apparently, you know, that's what they
15 felt.
16 Q Okay.
17 THE COURT: That's what you felt too.
18 Right? You were there.
19 THE WITNESS: Well, I had actually never
20 seen Mr. Wollersheim's Preclear folders. I had never
21 audited him.
22 THE COURT: But you didn't have a problem
23 destroying it.
24 THE WITNESS: Correct.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1070
1 Q And why didn't you have a problem destroying his
2 records?
3 A Because, like every good Scientologist, you have
4 to protect Scientology. You have to protect the integrity
5 of Scientology, its leadership, so that it would carry on
6 because it's the greatest good. Scientologists believe
7 that Scientology is man's only answer to freedom.
8 Q Now, did you have to understand -- I'm sorry.
9 Did I interrupt you?
10 A No, go ahead.
11 Q Did you understand at any point in time there was
12 actually a court order to produce the entire PC folders of
13 Mr. Wollersheim after the Church only produced a little bit
14 of it?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, relevancy. He's
16 already -- and beyond the scope and all that --
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 MR. WEINBERG: -- other stuff.
19 THE COURT: I'm sustaining it as beyond the
20 scope.
21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Well --
22 THE COURT: I mean, frankly, I think we've
23 already been over this.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I do too. That's why I
25 objected.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1071
1 THE COURT: I don't need to hear it several
2 times.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Well, Mr. Prince --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Just so it's clear, our
6 position is no PC folders were destroyed.
7 THE COURT: I understand that. I understand
8 that too.
9 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Did you understand that Mr. Wollersheim was --
12 did allege that his PC folders were destroyed?
13 THE COURT: I mean, what are we using --
14 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Let me ask you this question. This is what I'm
17 leading up to. Mr. Prince, you said that you lied in your
18 deposition in the Yanny vs. RTC case?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And you said you sat in this meeting where
21 Mr. Miscavige and Mr. Cooley was at this meeting where a
22 decision was made to destroy evidence of PC folders of
23 Mr. Wollersheim?
24 A Correct.
25 Q And Mr. Aznaran is the one who actually went out
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1072
1 to the paper mill and had it pulped?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And you did that because you were being loyal to
4 the Church of Scientology?
5 A Correct.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection.
7 THE COURT: It's irrelevant. Besides that,
8 you're doing the testimony, and he's just saying yes.
9 You need to ask him, Why did you do that?
10 MR. DANDAR: And he's answered that.
11 THE COURT: Yes, he has.
12 MR. DANDAR: I want to skip -- the question
13 is this.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Prince, are you testifying for the Estate of
16 Lisa McPherson or for me because you're loyal to the
17 Estate, to the cause, or to Ken Dandar?
18 A No. I'm testifying because it's the right thing
19 to do. It's very difficult to divine truth from -- I'm not
20 trying to be vicious here, but it's very difficult to
21 divine truth from Scientology. People that are currently
22 working on this case, they'll do anything they can to
23 obstruct it. They'll do anything they can to make sure --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
25 A -- that you can't find out the truth, and --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1073
1 MR. WEINBERG: He's going on and on and on.
2 A -- that's why I do that.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He was asked a
4 leading question, Are you testifying because you were
5 loyal to the --
6 THE COURT: Actually, that wasn't leading
7 because his answer was no.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand he said
9 no. Now he's going off into some big explanation.
10 THE COURT: That's true. If you want to ask
11 him why are you testifying, then he can go on with his
12 explanation.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q All right. Why are you testifying in this
15 hearing?
16 A To give justice and equity a chance -- a fair
17 chance, to give all the information, to be able to give the
18 full view of what's going on. You know, I think it would
19 be fair -- it's only fair that the whole picture is seen.
20 Q Mr. Prince, Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks offered
21 to continue to pay you $5,000 a month if you, quote, went
22 down the road with them, close quote, and lied. Isn't that
23 true?
24 A I was promised a lot more than that.
25 Q What else were you promised to lie?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1074
1 A Retirement.
2 Q Did they go into any specific details?
3 A Financial security that will retire me for the
4 rest of my life.
5 Q Any dollar figures discussed?
6 A A quarter of a million. That's normally what
7 Mr. Minton does when he gives people money.
8 Q Would a quarter of a million be enough?
9 A For me to retire for the rest of my life? No. I
10 think I'm too young. I would need more. I would have to
11 need more.
12 Q And is there any doubt in your mind that
13 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks proposed this to you, to lie,
14 that they knew that they wanted you to lie?
15 A Absolutely. They knew they were lying. They
16 knew we all had to lie. I mean, this is the only thing
17 that they felt they could do to end it, disengage, to be
18 done with it. I mean, there's only so long you can wrestle
19 with this demon.
20 Q Okay.
21 THE COURT: And you don't need,
22 Mr. Weinberg, when it's your turn, to get up and
23 respond to that. It's for money, he testified. So I
24 understand where both of you all are coming from here.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't even going to make
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1075
1 that point.
2 MR. DANDAR: Well --
3 MR. WEINBERG: One short point on that.
4 THE COURT: Well, I saw you getting --
5 fuming, and I was thinking, "Oh, dear."
6 MR. WEINBERG: I was thinking about all the
7 calls I have to return.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Mr. Prince, when you and I met at the mall with
10 Mr. Lirot, Mr. Haverty, and your fiance and you wrote out
11 what's attached to your declaration, the handwritten note
12 of April 14th, 2002, did I promise you money at all?
13 A None at all. Money wasn't even discussed.
14 Q Did I pay you any money for writing that note?
15 A Absolutely not.
16 Q Did I promise to pay you money in the future if
17 you wrote that note?
18 A No, you did not.
19 Q And isn't it true or -- what's the reason why I
20 gave you a retainer of 4,000?
21 A Because my time is as valuable as anyone else's.
22 Q And you've been working on this -- this hearing
23 preparing documents for me?
24 A Correct.
25 THE COURT: You are back now as Mr. Dandar's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1076
1 consultant? Is that it?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: And expert?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q I certainly haven't promised you any retirement
8 money, have I?
9 A No, you have not.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could we have a
11 direct question instead of a leading question?
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Now, Mr. Prince, when you were in LMT, did you
15 know that the -- and if I asked this, I'll -- I don't
16 remember asking this -- do you know whether or not the LMT
17 received an anonymous $300,000 from Clambake?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, this is beyond
19 the scope. I didn't ask about it.
20 THE COURT: It's beyond the scope. The
21 truth of the matter is, rather than recall, if this is
22 an area that he thinks is important, I'm going to let
23 him get into it.
24 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1077
1 Q Did you know that they got money from Clambake?
2 A The only -- you know, I found out about that --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he just
4 answer the question?
5 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to answer the
6 question.
7 THE COURT: Counsel, just let it go, would
8 you?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
10 THE COURT: We need to get through this.
11 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
12 A I found out about that whole deal with money
13 coming from wherever it came from when Teresa Summers wrote
14 her resignation letter to Stacy Brooks and I read it, where
15 that was mentioned.
16 THE COURT: So the truth -- you did not know
17 about the 300,000, who it came from. Mr. Minton never
18 discussed this with you --
19 THE WITNESS: Correct, correct.
20 THE COURT: -- is that right?
21 THE WITNESS: That's right.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q And did you ever -- while you were with LMT, did
24 you ever hear the phrase "the fat man"?
25 A No.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1078
1 Q Okay. Now, with this Key West fishing trip in
2 the summer of 1999, as best I can phrase that, you had
3 already been working for me for a few months, correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Now, the other people that showed up down in Key
6 West, like Mr. Ford Greene, is that someone that you had
7 ever seen me with before that fishing trip?
8 A No.
9 Q Did I go on the fishing trip?
10 A No, you did not.
11 Q Did I stay with you and Mr. Leipold and
12 Mr. Greene and Mr. Haverty?
13 A No.
14 Q Oh, in that release that's in evidence,
15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 231, that release language says
16 that you are conceding or admitting that you were not
17 harmed by the Church of Scientology. Do you have any
18 reason to know why that was put in your release?
19 A Yes. That was put in the release for the same
20 reason that Scientologists are asked to lie. It's to
21 protect Scientology at all costs.
22 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you on cross if you had
23 any personal knowledge of whether or not David Miscavige
24 was physically at the Fort Harrison Hotel while Lisa
25 McPherson was there in November and December of '95. Do
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1079
1 you remember that?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Mr. Prince, would it matter where David Miscavige
4 was physically located as to whether or not he would have
5 knowledge and was personally involved with the care and
6 treatment of Lisa McPherson?
7 A In my opinion, no.
8 Q Why not?
9 A Well, with the state of technology today, it
10 makes no difference whatsoever. But also, based on past
11 experience that I have had with Mr. Miscavige during the
12 Wollersheim case, we were really just a short distance
13 away, and while the hearings were going on, people were
14 calling and reporting all the time. There's no problem of
15 getting an on-the-ground report immediately in any place in
16 Scientology for Mr. Miscavige.
17 THE COURT: It is your opinion -- I'm sure
18 you've probably testified to this, but I can't
19 remember. I've heard from several people. It is your
20 opinion that Mr. Miscavige was kept advised at all
21 times of Lisa McPherson and her situation.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it is my opinion
23 that once the situation where she got out of the car
24 and was admitted to the hospital and it became a
25 matter for Office of Special Affairs' concern, then he
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1080
1 was -- he knew about it.
2 THE COURT: Was it your opinion while she
3 was admittedly PTS-III, undergoing introspection
4 rundown, he would be kept advised of this and the
5 progress?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Or lack of progress?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you to --
11 THE COURT: And that opinion comes from your
12 having been around him when he was head of RTC?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Or ASI?
15 THE WITNESS: Both.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: When Mr. Hubbard was alive and
19 was the head ecclesiastical leader of the Church,
20 would he have been kept advised of PTS Type III
21 introspection rundown?
22 THE WITNESS: He would have taken it over
23 and dealt with it himself.
24 THE COURT: My question is, Would he have
25 been kept advised?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1081
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Wherever it was being conducted?
3 THE WITNESS: Well, in all honesty, your
4 Honor, I have to answer this and say that towards the
5 end of Mr. Hubbard's life --
6 THE COURT: Forget when folks say he was
7 mad. I understood that.
8 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
9 THE COURT: When he was in charge of the
10 Church and head ecclesiastical leader, would he have
11 been kept advised of that type of situation, with
12 either a public or staff member of Scientology?
13 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Is there any question in your
15 mind whatsoever about that?
16 THE WITNESS: None whatsoever. He would
17 have taken it over and did it himself.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you to admit that there's
20 no written policy in the Church of Scientology to go out
21 and kill somebody, and you said that's true. Do you recall
22 that?
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what's that?
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q There's no written policy in the Church of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1082
1 Scientology to go and kill somebody.
2 A Well, there's one thing that came into evidence
3 here. It was the SP declare of -- I think I read down the
4 list. It was maybe eight people. And in that --
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what came into
6 evidence? The, what, SP?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. It was an SP
8 declare. It was a single sheet of a paper by L. Ron
9 Hubbard declaring -- I think it was eight people
10 suppressive persons and declared them fair game. And
11 then on one of the lines, L. Ron Hubbard gave
12 instructions whereby he said any Sea Org member
13 encountering any of the above persons is to use
14 process R245 on them. Process R245 --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
16 THE WITNESS: -- is a process --
17 MR. WEINBERG: -- your Honor, objection.
18 This was the document that was not admitted that
19 Mr. Prince is now testifying about. It was the phony
20 document.
21 MR. DANDAR: Phony --
22 MR. WEINBERG: And this is way beyond the
23 scope of my cross-examination.
24 THE COURT: It's not beyond the scope
25 because you made it clear there's absolutely no basis
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1083
1 upon which to make the assertions that he has. Now,
2 if he has a basis, he would be permitted to testify.
3 So it's not beyond the scope.
4 MR. WEINBERG: This document that he's
5 talking about is not in evidence.
6 THE COURT: All right. If that's true, then
7 he can't refer to that document.
8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I thought it was.
9 THE COURT: Well, go find it. Let's take a
10 break and we'll see whether it is or not. I couldn't
11 begin to tell you what documents are in and what ones
12 aren't. But the clerk would have them, whether they
13 were admitted or not.
14 MR. DANDAR: Right. Before we take a break,
15 let me ask one more question.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q In your tenure at the Church of Scientology, did
19 you ever see anything in writing called R245?
20 A Yes. It actually comes from a tape lecture. And
21 I forget which tape lecture it was specifically, but it
22 talks about R245 being an effective exteriorization
23 process, whereby the person takes a .45, puts it to his
24 head -- a loaded .45, puts it to his head, pulls the
25 trigger, and blows their brains out. That releases the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1084
1 spirit from the body.
2 Q Is that a lecture by -- who?
3 A L. Ron Hubbard.
4 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let's take our
5 break and let me find that.
6 THE COURT: All right. It's 25 after.
7 We'll take 15 minutes.
8 (A break was taken at 10:25 a.m. until
9 approximately 10:55 a.m.)
10 THE COURT: All right. Where is Mr. Prince?
11 THE WITNESS: I'm here, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: You may resume the stand.
13 You all may be seated.
14 And, Mr. Dandar, did you find whether that
15 was in or out of evidence?
16 MR. DANDAR: It was out. And for the
17 clerk's benefit, I still have it, so make sure I give
18 it back to her. Somewhere. It's on my table.
19 Here it is. I have this tendency of walking
20 away with exhibits.
21 THE COURT: Are we having a light show?
22 MR. DANDAR: They had a TV or a signal that
23 keeps coming in. We started to watch a soap opera
24 there for a minute.
25 THE COURT: I see.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1085
1 MR. DANDAR: But I have a videotape of a
2 Boston picket. And the only reason I want to put this
3 on is because Mr. Weinberg used Mr. Prince picketing
4 in his cross-examination. But this shows what
5 happened before the clip-it, the snippet, that
6 Mr. Weinberg showed.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Just so it's clear, this is a
8 different day than the picket that I showed. But he
9 can play it.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Ken (motioning to move).
12 THE WITNESS: It has no audio.
13 MR. DANDAR: Let's stop it. Because I did
14 that too.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know the date of this?
16 MR. DANDAR: It's in the beginning of the
17 tape. Just a minute, and I'll get everything here.
18 (The tape of the picket was played, entitled
19 "Boston, September 10th, 1998, unedited."
20 As noted below, the tape was not reportable
21 and is not transcribed herein.)
22 THE COURT: Isn't that pleasant.
23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just put that on to
24 show you it's not a one-way street.
25 THE COURT: I understand.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1086
1 MR. DANDAR: Now, Mr. Prince --
2 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter?
3 THE REPORTER: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: If you didn't get all that, you
5 can put in the record -- because this tape can be put
6 in -- that it was just a lot of shouting and carrying
7 on and that you did the best you could.
8 THE REPORTER: Thank you very much, your
9 Honor.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Are you marking that as an
11 exhibit?
12 THE COURT: Make a copy of it for the
13 record, because there's no way the court reporter
14 could be expected to get all that. Talk about your
15 proverbial everybody talking at once.
16 MR. DANDAR: That would be impossible to
17 write down.
18 THE COURT: Yes, it would.
19 So I'm sure you did the best you could, but
20 as far as I'm concerned, it could be basically said
21 you must see the tape because it's everybody talking
22 at once and loud and obnoxious.
23 MR. DANDAR: Since Mr. Lirot is bringing in
24 our next witness, I'm going to mark it as 135A because
25 he has all of his exhibits premarked --
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1087
1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MR. DANDAR: -- starting with 136. So the
3 videotape of Boston, September 10th, '98, is
4 Plaintiff's 135A.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Plaintiff's 135A.
6 MR. DANDAR: Right.
7 MR. WEINBERG: It was 9/10?
8 THE COURT: 9/10/98.
9 MR. WEINBERG: And you received that into
10 evidence, your Honor?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Mr. Prince, the people that were engaging you and
15 Mr. Minton in that picket, where were they from?
16 A Office of Special Affairs, Boston.
17 Q Now, Mr. Prince, you talked about the taped
18 lecture series of Mr. Hubbard where he describes R245?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And have you seen that?
21 A I have seen that.
22 Q Or heard it, whatever it is. I don't know what
23 it is.
24 A Yes, I heard it before, read the transcript.
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have a TV -- which I
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1088
1 believe is a TV interview of Mr. Hubbard where he
2 talks about this policy that he wrote called R245.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Objection, your Honor. It's
4 not a policy. It's a mischaracterization of it.
5 Again, it mischaracterizes the policy of the Church of
6 Scientology.
7 THE COURT: Well, if this is a lecture of
8 Mr. Hubbard, why, what could be objectionable with
9 Mr. Hubbard --
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's the characterization of
11 it as a policy.
12 THE COURT: All right. That will be
13 sustained.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: The characterization of what
15 actually was --
16 MR. DANDAR: I apparently misspoke, I'm
17 sorry. I'll have Mr. Prince talk about what it is.
18 As soon as we identify -- this is, I believe,
19 Mr. Hubbard speaking, so . . .
20 THE COURT: What number is it?
21 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit number? This will be
22 135B.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just ask the
25 relevance of playing a 1950 speech of L. Ron Hubbard?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1089
1 MR. DANDAR: If he's objecting because of
2 the age of the speech, I think it's quite clear that
3 the age of any document Mr. Hubbard wrote or spoke
4 about has no significance --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
6 MR. DANDAR: -- in the Church of
7 Scientology. Everything remains the same.
8 THE COURT: What is it, though? I don't
9 understand. Is this a --
10 MR. WEINBERG: This is redirect.
11 MR. DANDAR: He brought this up on cross.
12 THE COURT: What did he bring up?
13 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Weinberg brought up on
14 cross that there's no written policy of the Church of
15 Scientology about killing somebody.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. DANDAR: He objected to that Flag order
18 because it wasn't properly authenticated. That's
19 fine. It spoke of R245. There's another publication
20 we're going to bring in that is current and published
21 by the Church of Scientology that does mention R245.
22 MR. WEINBERG: What I had asked, just so
23 it's clear, was there any policy to kill somebody, and
24 he said no. But secondly --
25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, Counsel.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1090
1 Overruled.
2 I hope this isn't terribly long. Is it?
3 MR. DANDAR: It is. I think it's
4 35 minutes.
5 THE COURT: I'm not going to listen to
6 35 minutes.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Maybe -- what I
8 would like to do over lunch is go down right to the
9 specific area.
10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, you see,
11 that's the problem. I understand your Honor doesn't
12 want to listen to 35 minutes. You shouldn't have to
13 listen to 35 minutes. But you cannot take a speech
14 and say this is a religious policy and take two
15 minutes out of an entire lecture about religious
16 matters and then play it and pretend that that gives
17 you any idea as to the context of what's going on.
18 THE COURT: All right. I'll listen to the
19 whole thing.
20 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't want -- I'm not
21 urging you.
22 MR. DANDAR: Let's do this after lunch. Is
23 that all right?
24 THE COURT: All right. Let's do it about
25 4 o'clock.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1091
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: All right. We'll do it after
3 lunch.
4 MR. DANDAR: I hope Mr. Prince is still not
5 on the stand by 4 o'clock. In fact, I think he should
6 be over quite soon.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Now, talking about policies of the Church of
9 Scientology, Mr. Prince, are you familiar with the
10 additional steps in evidence, the policy of additional
11 steps of an introspection rundown, where Mr. Hubbard writes
12 that the introspection rundown can be deadly?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Are you familiar with search and discovery, the
15 PSSSP course, where it states that some psychotics cannot
16 be kept alive?
17 A Yes, I am.
18 Q How do you audit someone who is unconscious?
19 A Well, I can tell you a process. If a person is
20 laying unconscious on a bed, you simply give them a
21 command, "Give me that hand," and then you actually execute
22 that command by taking a person's hand and putting it in
23 your hand. And once you do that, you say, "Thank you."
24 And then you put the hand back and say, "Give me that
25 hand." And you do that repeatedly, over and over.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1092
1 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you about the Teresita
2 introspection rundown that you participated in -- is it
3 Soboba?
4 A Soboba Indian Reservation.
5 Q Okay. Is that -- was your experience in that
6 introspection rundown similar to what Lisa McPherson
7 experienced?
8 A I don't think so.
9 Q What were the differences?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. "What
11 were the differences," I mean, he doesn't have any
12 personal knowledge --
13 THE COURT: No, but I assume as consultant
14 he read all of the depositions of those who did. So I
15 suspect he can testify about that.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
17 THE COURT: Did you read the -- did you read
18 the depositions or the statements --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: -- from the persons who were
21 attending Lisa McPherson?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I read the notes as
23 well.
24 MR. WEINBERG: On direct, he already did
25 that. I didn't ask him to -- not -- to do anything
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1093
1 different on cross, and now Mr. Dandar is asking him
2 to do the same thing that he did on direct.
3 THE COURT: I don't recall this on direct.
4 Overruled.
5 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Go ahead. What is the differences? What are the
8 differences?
9 A The difference being number one that Teresita was
10 a staff member. Mrs. McPherson was a paying Scientology
11 public. Teresita had no intentions of leaving staff or
12 departing from Scientology. Lisa McPherson did.
13 Beyond that -- and, again, there's so many
14 records. I mean, it's stated that she was on the
15 introspection rundown. Yet there is no program, there is
16 no evidence, there's no invoice, there's no running form,
17 there's none of those things in evidence that would be in
18 evidence if a person was on an introspection rundown in
19 fact.
20 And -- but as far as the manifestations of
21 wanting to get out of the room that she was locked in,
22 there's certainly similarities there. But those are some
23 of the differences.
24 Q When -- to your knowledge, your personal
25 knowledge with Teresita, did people talk to Teresita?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1094
1 A Yes.
2 Q And -- during the entire introspection rundown?
3 A I mean, no one held long conversations with her.
4 But just basic civility. You know, you walk in a room and
5 you see a person, you say hi. The person says something to
6 you. You either acknowledge or answer the questions. You
7 know, simple things like that.
8 Q Did you have to assist in any way or did you see
9 others assist in any way Teresita in drinking water?
10 A Yes.
11 Q How did they do it?
12 A Sit down next to her with a glass of water with
13 ice and a straw and sometimes they put -- the girls would
14 do it, and I would do it, you know, put your arm around
15 her. Teresita seemed to like that. She was very childlike
16 at times. And hold the straw to her face, and she would
17 drink through the straw. When she would stop, you know,
18 you would tell her: "You just need to drink a little bit
19 more water because it's good for you. It's hot out here;
20 it's the desert. Be a good girl. Drink a little bit
21 more." And she would drink it.
22 Q And did you ever see her do that, as time went on
23 in her introspection rundown, where she wouldn't drink
24 water on her own?
25 A Yes. But I certainly wouldn't have any way of
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1095
1 making her drink water if she didn't want to drink it.
2 Q Okay. What I'm saying is, did you ever observe
3 her just pick up, without being coached or coaxed, pick up
4 a glass of water or bottled water and just drink it by
5 herself?
6 A Oh, sure.
7 Q Was that in the beginning, the middle, or the
8 end, or throughout?
9 A You know, with Teresita, I don't think the water
10 was so much an issue because it -- at a point in time she
11 wasn't aware of it, but as she went through introspection
12 and we sat with her and made her drink it, that she came to
13 understand that it was part of the routine, that she had to
14 drink X amount of water every day or, you know, during
15 certain time periods.
16 Q You said Mr. Hubbard's doctor, Dr. Denk, came to
17 see her?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q How many times?
20 A Once that I know of.
21 Q And he administered something to her?
22 A Yes, he did.
23 Q All right. After he left, did he leave any
24 medicine behind or something for others to administer to
25 her?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1096
1 A Yes. There were some pills.
2 Q Do you know what they were?
3 A I do not. I do not recall what they were.
4 Q All right.
5 A But I know they were to make her sleep.
6 Q Okay. Did he leave instructions with people how
7 often to give that?
8 A Yes, he did. I think we were to break the
9 tablets in half, to not give her a strong dose, or even
10 lesser amounts and crush it up and mix it in with a protein
11 drink.
12 Q Do you know of any licensed medical doctor who
13 came in to see Lisa McPherson?
14 A No, I do not.
15 Q Do you know if Teresita received a medical
16 examination by a licensed medical doctor before or
17 during -- outside of Dr. Denk? Well, let me start -- that
18 was a terrible question.
19 In addition to giving Teresita prescription
20 drugs, did Dr. Denk examine her?
21 A Yes, he did. He looked in her eyes, looked in
22 her ears, checked her mouth, you know, pressed certain
23 areas of her body to see if it was sore or she would react,
24 check their feet, check their arms, check their back, check
25 their neck.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1097
1 Q Okay. Was anything else done as far as the
2 medical exam outside of what you just said?
3 A Not -- no, not -- I don't think so.
4 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned on cross-examination
5 meeting with me and preparing that handwritten note that's
6 dated April 14th, 2002, the past year, a typed affidavit.
7 Why did you prepare a handwritten note?
8 A I felt it was important to preserve in some
9 fashion what I had discussed with you, what had been going
10 on. And since I had plans to investigate it further, in
11 case something happened to me when I went off to see those
12 people that at least there would have been something left
13 written by me that would have indicated something was going
14 on.
15 Q Now, the day that you prepared that written
16 statement, that was the night you were supposed to meet
17 with Mr. Rinder?
18 A Correct.
19 Q Did I assist you at all in preparing that written
20 statement?
21 A No, you did not.
22 Q In fact, you purposely went away from me --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form,
24 your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Sustained.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1098
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q All right. How close were you to me when you
3 wrote that document?
4 A I separated myself and went to a different table
5 and did the document.
6 Q Okay. Now, in that affidavit that you
7 prepared -- you typed that all by yourself, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 THE COURT: Which affidavit are we talking
10 about?
11 MR. DANDAR: The --
12 THE COURT: The last one?
13 MR. DANDAR: The last one, April 2002, that
14 was actually executed --
15 THE WITNESS: May 1st.
16 MR. DANDAR: -- May 1st.
17 THE COURT: What was the date of the last
18 visit with Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks? What was the date?
19 MR. DANDAR: What was the date? Was it that
20 Sunday?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was a Sunday.
22 THE COURT: The 14th.
23 MR. DANDAR: The 14th of April.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Now, in that affidavit, Mr. Weinberg pointed out
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1099
1 on cross that you put in the wrong date. You put in August
2 of 2001, and Mr. Minton told you on the top of the garage
3 about his last check to me of 500,000?
4 A Correct.
5 Q As you sit here today, what are you positive
6 about in reference to that conversation with Mr. Minton?
7 A Everything that I've testified to.
8 Q When did it take place?
9 A It took place -- you know, I can't say the exact
10 month, you know. I'm sorry, I wish I could do better with
11 that. But I know it was very warm. I know that
12 specifically it was a $500,000 check.
13 Q If I told you to assume that Mr. Minton only
14 delivered to me one check for $500,000, was this
15 conversation with Mr. Minton before or after he delivered
16 the check?
17 A After.
18 Q And do you have any idea if it was before or
19 after he gave a deposition in May of 2000?
20 A No, I have no idea.
21 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned that, when you met with
22 Mr. Minton after he testified before Judge Baird on
23 April 9th, you then telephoned Frank Oliver?
24 A Correct.
25 Q To ask Frank Oliver to call me to have me call
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1100
1 you?
2 A Correct.
3 Q Why did you go through that circuitous route?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, because he did --
5 I asked him the same question, why did you do that,
6 and he explained it.
7 THE COURT: I think it's been asked and
8 answered.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Okay. Why did you feel your home was bugged?
11 A Because a person that was hired by Scientology, a
12 private investigator named David Amos, contacted me here in
13 Clearwater, and I went to visit with him in Memphis,
14 Tennessee, and he told me --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. That's hearsay,
16 your Honor, whatever -- he had some conversation with
17 some guy David Amos.
18 THE COURT: It's not introduced as to the
19 truth of the matter asserted. It's basically as to
20 why he thought his house was bugged, not because it
21 was bugged.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then he had a
23 conversation. We shouldn't get into the details of
24 the conversation, should we? Isn't that just hearsay?
25 MR. DANDAR: It's an exception.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1101
1 THE COURT: I think it's an exception. One
2 of the exceptions I don't really understand. I'm
3 going to allow it.
4 A Mr. David Amos informed me that he had been hired
5 by the Church of Scientology to surveil me, do surveillance
6 on me, and to -- what he was looking for, he told me, was
7 that he had been briefed by his Scientology handlers in Los
8 Angeles that Mr. Minton and I were involved in child
9 slavery and we were -- had child slaves that we were
10 running around different countries. And Mr. Amos had a
11 street ministry. He's a very Christian man, and he has a
12 street ministry where he helps abused children.
13 THE COURT: I don't need to hear about all
14 that.
15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
16 THE COURT: I need to hear why you thought
17 your house was bugged.
18 A Anyway, he told me that he was specifically hired
19 to bug my house in Chicago, and when I moved from Chicago
20 to Clearwater, that he was hired to do the same there. And
21 he agreed to come out and show me how he did it and where
22 he did it. And I sent him plane tickets and I sent him
23 money to come out to do that. And at the last minute, he
24 got cold feet and didn't do it. But I did report it to the
25 FBI, the entire incident.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1102
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Did you go out and visit Mr. Amos?
3 A Excuse me?
4 Q Did you actually meet with Mr. Amos?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Could we get a date of this
7 alleged conversation?
8 THE COURT: You can when it's your turn. I
9 don't care if it's true. As far as I'm concerned,
10 it's only why he thought his house was bugged.
11 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That's fine.
12 THE COURT: Which is an explanation as to
13 why he didn't call from his house, which is all that's
14 relevant to this.
15 MR. WEINBERG: But the testimony, of course,
16 is that he did call from the house. He got the call
17 at the house anyway. That's what he said.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did you go to see Agent Strope of the FDLE before
20 or after you went to Dennis deVlaming's office?
21 A After.
22 Q And did you go to Dennis deVlaming's office
23 before or after you met me at the mall on April 14th?
24 A Before. I did that the day of the testimony --
25 THE COURT: He's already testified about
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1103
1 this.
2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I wasn't clear. Okay.
3 All right. And I believe . . .
4 Your Honor, that's all the questions I have.
5 I just want to be able to ask Mr. Prince a question
6 based upon this videotape that I want to play of
7 Mr. Hubbard.
8 THE COURT: Well, go on ahead and play it
9 now. It's a good time to do it.
10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. And I'm going to tell
11 you in advance, Judge, I haven't seen this tape
12 before. So I'm going to play it. It's represented to
13 me as being Mr. Hubbard talking about this R245.
14 THE COURT: Well, Lord, let's hope there's
15 something in there about it, something that's
16 relevant.
17 MR. DANDAR: That's why I prefer not to do
18 it right now. Let me --
19 MR. WEINBERG: Could he possibly hand it to
20 us, see if we can identify it?
21 MR. DANDAR: This is a copy of a copy. This
22 is not --
23 THE COURT: You couldn't identify it.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I thought it might be
25 something he had purchased.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1104
1 THE COURT: No.
2 MR. DANDAR: No.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
4 THE COURT: I don't want to leave here at
5 11:30 if you've got 35 minutes of tape you're going to
6 play. Are you done with Mr. Prince?
7 MR. DANDAR: Except for this.
8 THE COURT: All right. Well, put it in.
9 Maybe Mr. Prince will let us know. I mean, I don't
10 know what Mr. Hubbard --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just ask -- where
12 did Mr. Minton -- Dandar get this, is all I'm asking.
13 MR. DANDAR: This is an interview of
14 Mr. Hubbard from a Granada TV station.
15 THE COURT: It really doesn't matter how he
16 got it. He doesn't ask you how you got your stuff.
17 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. I thought that this
18 was the original lecture, but this is just a -- this
19 is actually just an interview, not the lecture.
20 MR. DANDAR: This is an interview --
21 THE COURT: We'll see what it is, Counselor.
22 Sit down.
23 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That's fine.
24 MR. LIEBERMAN: At the expense of your
25 Honor, I just want to point out that television can't
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1105
1 possibly be policy letter of the Church of
2 Scientology.
3 MR. DANDAR: We didn't say it was a policy
4 letter. It's a lectured -- of a tape lecture of
5 Mr. Hubbard.
6 And I don't know where this is taking me
7 now.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's not a lecture, you
9 said. It was a television interview.
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, we'll see.
11 THE COURT: Surely you don't all care if we
12 watch Mr. Hubbard here for 35 minutes, do you? Then I
13 wish you would sit down and let us watch it.
14 (The tape from Granada television was played
15 as follows.)
16 THE NARRATOR: Tonight, Well in Action has
17 tracked down one of the most elusive men on earth.
18 This was the end of our search, an ex-(unintelligible)
19 for Royal Scotland, docked at (unintelligible --
20 Deserta?), a small port in North Africa.
21 On board about 250 people, may be some sort
22 of a crew, and this mysterious man. (Unintelligible)
23 screen man thought he was a great scientist when
24 (unintelligible). Everybody seems to think he's a
25 millionaire.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1106
1 These are no ordinary seamen. Their
2 allegiance and devotion to the mysterious man is
3 total. To them, he is My Commodore. The man is
4 L. Ron Hubbard, charmer, science fiction writer, and
5 showman, the creator of Scientology, and the man who
6 is pushing it into its new, more militant phase. He
7 now requires that his crew must have training in judo
8 and weaponry and must be ethically beyond reproach,
9 tough, formidable, and effective. To them he's a
10 soldier.
11 One of them wrote: "That which I have
12 really found is the nearness to the greatness, which
13 is Ron, our founder --"
14 (The tape was interrupted.)
15 THE COURT: Stop this for a minute.
16 (Continuing with tape.)
17 THE NARRATOR: "-- he, above all, My
18 Commodore --"
19 (The tape was stopped.)
20 THE COURT: I don't know what this is, but
21 this is not Mr. Hubbard talking.
22 MR. PRINCE: There's a little preamble, if
23 you will, like a little introductory -- this is an
24 interviewer talking, and then Mr. Hubbard comes on.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Go on ahead.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1107
1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, just so the record is
2 clear, we do object to this, to the comments going in
3 the record of this obviously reporter that was
4 doing -- I don't think he was intending to do a
5 favorable piece back in the '50s with regard to the
6 Church of Scientology. We object to his comments
7 going into evidence. It's like Dateline, NBC, or
8 something, it sounds like.
9 THE COURT: I haven't heard anything
10 offensive yet.
11 (The tape was played as follows.)
12 THE NARRATOR: After several weeks of
13 hunting for him, with the help of almost every radio
14 station along the Mediterranean and beyond, Well in
15 Action at last tracked Hubbard down. Just before dawn
16 on a recent Sunday morning, Hubbard, who finds
17 sleeping difficult, decided at last to speak. He
18 spoke for a long, long time, about his money, his
19 beliefs, his critics, and the new authoritarian
20 structure of Scientology.
21 But first he spoke about his troubles with
22 the British government. He put on his hat, he smiled,
23 and he began.
24 MR. HUBBARD: Well, that's very interesting.
25 Let's correct the impression first. You said "you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1108
1 were in trouble." Let's get my relationship to this
2 completely straight. I am the writer of the textbooks
3 of Scientology. About two and a half years ago or so,
4 I even ceased to be a director of organizations.
5 The government -- in the first place, I am
6 not in trouble with the British government, not even
7 faintly. If I went in today or tomorrow through
8 immigration, they would tip their hats and say, "How
9 are you, Mr. Hubbard?" just as they have been doing
10 for years.
11 THE NARRATOR: The immigration officials
12 might well tip their hats, but they couldn't let him
13 in. The day we filmed Mr. Hubbard, the home office
14 decided that Britain would be better off without him.
15 Saint Hill Manor, England, Hubbard's British
16 headquarters --
17 (The tape was interrupted.)
18 THE COURT: Stop, stop.
19 (Continuing with tape.)
20 THE NARRATOR: -- has made an income of
21 something like one million pounds --
22 (The tape was stopped.)
23 THE COURT: This is not whatever you all
24 said it was. This is more this other person than it
25 is Mr. Hubbard. You -- find what it is you want to
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1109
1 play for me sometime and play it. I don't want to
2 hear all this other stuff.
3 MR. DANDAR: All right.
4 THE COURT: And your objection is sustained
5 as far as this is not relevant. Whoever this is --
6 MR. DANDAR: That's it right there? All
7 right.
8 Go to the beginning of this. All right.
9 Sorry I had it wrong. Sorry.
10 (The tape was played as follows.)
11 THE NARRATOR: . . . simply to a layman what
12 Scientology is.
13 MR. HUBBARD: I think that would be a
14 relatively easy (unintelligible) because it's
15 factually a subject which is designed for the layman,
16 and if you couldn't explain it to a layman, you would
17 have a very difficult time with it.
18 The subject name means "steel," which means
19 knowing how in the fullest sense of the word; "ology,"
20 which is "study of." So it's actually study of
21 knowingness. That is what the word itself means.
22 The --
23 THE NARRATOR: To me --
24 MR. HUBBARD: Yes.
25 THE NARRATOR: -- to me that doesn't mean
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1110
1 very much. (Unintelligible.) What does it do for you
2 in theory?
3 MR. HUBBARD: It increases one's
4 knowingness. But if a man were totally aware of what
5 was going on around him, he would find it was
6 relatively simple to handle any outnesses in that.
7 THE NARRATOR: Even after twelve hours of
8 talking, we never got an explanation from him that we
9 could understand. In fact, Scientology is a fake, a
10 religion --
11 (The tape was stopped.)
12 THE COURT: This is beyond --
13 MR. DANDAR: I apologize to the Court. Let
14 me -- let me find the spot that I'm trying to get to.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. DANDAR: And if Mr. Weinberg has
17 recross --
18 THE COURT: Let's get that done.
19 MR. DANDAR: I'll try to get that done.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I take it the last comment
21 was struck as well. Right?
22 THE COURT: It certainly was.
23 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
24 THE COURT: As a matter of fact, none of
25 this is admissible at this point. I don't know that
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1111
1 whatever it is they're trying to find would be
2 admissible.
3 But you try to find it, Mr. Dandar, over
4 lunch break and we'll --
5 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
6 THE COURT: -- listen to it, and then I'll
7 see.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 You may cross-examine on the redirect.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
11 THE COURT: It was very brief.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Excuse me.
13 THE WITNESS: You have to turn that thing
14 off, because it keeps getting the radio station.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you were yelling at
16 me.
17 THE COURT: No. I thought you were yelling
18 at me.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I looked up there to see if
20 it was 4 o'clock.
21 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Now, you, the first time on redirect, said that
24 Mr. Minton had offered you a lifetime pension to join him,
25 whenever it was, April of 2002. Correct? That's what you
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1112
1 said?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now -- and that typically --
4 THE COURT: He said "retirement." I don't
5 know that if he used the word "pension."
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q What you meant was you're going to be taken care
9 of the rest of your life?
10 A I meant what I said, which is I would be retired.
11 Q All right. And that from your experience it
12 was -- the people that fell in that category were the
13 people that got the $250,000. Right?
14 A I gave examples of other people that have -- when
15 Mr. Minton has given money to people to last them, this is
16 what it was.
17 Q Right, like Mr. Dandar in March got the $250,000.
18 A No. That was for the case.
19 Q Now -- now, you didn't -- do you remember that
20 affidavit, the May 1st affidavit, that you were asked again
21 about?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Nowhere in that affidavit do you say that
24 Mr. Pension -- Mr. Minton offered you retirement, $250,000,
25 or a lot of money?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1113
1 A Well, I'm not sure.
2 Q You didn't say that in there, yes or no?
3 A I'm not sure. I would have to look at the thing.
4 Q Do you want to do that?
5 A Yes.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Unfortunately, we had left
7 the documents up there, and they keep getting moved.
8 THE COURT: This may be it right here. I
9 think I have it still.
10 THE WITNESS: I could look at that real
11 quick, your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Do you want to look at my copy?
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. If you
14 would just give me a moment to scan it.
15 A No, I don't see that here. No, I didn't include
16 that in the declaration.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you (handing back to
18 Court).
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q The truth is, you complained to Stacy Brooks that
21 Mr. Minton had treated you differently and had just
22 nickeled and dimed you over the years. Correct?
23 A I don't --
24 Q Something like that?
25 A Not quite, no.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1114
1 Q Well, you were unhappy because you had never been
2 one of the recipients of one of those big $250,000 checks,
3 right?
4 A I think that -- no, that's incorrect, because the
5 context that we were speaking about is me selling my soul,
6 lying, perjuring myself, lying about Mr. Dandar and whoever
7 else Scientology would want to lie for, because, I mean,
8 you know, they had their shopping list of everything they
9 wanted to be gone. The Wollersheim was one; this was one.
10 I was supposed to do that. And, you know, I told him: You
11 can't do that. At no price can you make me turn on people
12 that I have worked with for years for Scientology's behalf.
13 And as a matter of fact, I think my statement was
14 I will not help Scientology hurt or destroy one more
15 person.
16 Q Now, this is a 16-page affidavit, chockful of all
17 kinds of details. You even detailed that Mr. Minton had
18 told you he offered Mr. Wollersheim $200,000 to try to
19 settle that case, right?
20 A Correct.
21 Q You put that in there. But you didn't think it
22 was important to put in this affidavit that Mr. Minton had
23 offered you a retire- -- basically enough money so that you
24 could retire? You didn't think that was important?
25 A Well, I admit that that is something that's
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1115
1 important here, but I did not put it there for whatever
2 reason. I mean, you know, I put down what I put down. So
3 if you want to give me a strike for that, okay.
4 Q All right. Now, you said today that -- on
5 redirect that those three resignation letters -- remember
6 the March 3rd, '87, letters, the ones in your hand?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Right? You told Mr. Dandar on redirect that you
9 actually executed those letters on March 3rd, 1987, right?
10 The ones in your hand.
11 A Yes.
12 Q And those letters were actually typed up on
13 March 3rd of 1987, right?
14 A I have no idea when they were typed.
15 Q Isn't that what you said on direct?
16 A No, I didn't say --
17 Q Isn't that what you said on redirect?
18 A No, I didn't say who typed it, because I did not
19 type this.
20 Q No, I didn't say you typed them up. I said those
21 were actually prepared, the whole letter --
22 THE COURT: He doesn't know when they were
23 typed.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, that was his testimony.
25 THE WITNESS: No, it wasn't.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1116
1 THE COURT: He said that was what he
2 executed.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q What you executed had the date on it already?
5 A Correct.
6 Q All right. So -- that's all I'm saying. In
7 other words, the -- you didn't -- you aren't testifying
8 that the -- that the resignation letters that you signed
9 were actually -- and that, you know, had the date on it
10 were actually prepared a long time before. That's not what
11 you're saying?
12 A No. I made a distinction between the undated
13 resignation that I had signed when I first assumed the
14 position and these ones right here. And I stated why these
15 ones were done, used, instead of the undated ones.
16 Q Do you remember in your affidavit -- and the
17 affidavit we're talking about is the -- that I'm talking
18 about now is the August 1999 affidavit, which is the -- the
19 August 20th one, which is the -- I call it the murder
20 allegation --
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q -- affidavit.
24 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach --
25 THE COURT: You may.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1117
1 MR. WEINBERG: -- is probably the easiest
2 way of doing this.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Do you remember that in paragraph 14 of -- this
5 is the -- just so you see it, is your August 20th, 1999.
6 A M'hum (affirmative).
7 Q You see, just read paragraph 14 down to -- it's
8 short.
9 A Okay.
10 Q Read it to yourself.
11 A Okay.
12 Q Have you seen that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, what you say in this affidavit in
15 paragraph 14 on page 6 is: "I was forcefully removed,"
16 which is, you've already testified, on March 3rd.
17 Then you say, quote: "It is my belief that my
18 undated resignation which I signed when I was appointed to
19 the board was then dated and used to make it appear that I
20 had resigned when I had not."
21 So the testimony that you swore to in this
22 affidavit that all that was -- that all that happened
23 was -- that what happened was that a date was put on
24 something that you had previously signed is absolutely
25 contrary to what you just testified in this court.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1118
1 Correct?
2 A What -- what I wrote there, I wrote that as my
3 belief. I didn't recall this, but once it was shown to me
4 and recalled to me, I testified about it. I'm not able to
5 recall every little thing all the time. That was my belief
6 at the time. But then when you showed me this, I
7 remembered more about the incident that happened in 1986.
8 Q '87.
9 A '87, sorry, January of '87.
10 Q So you were wrong in your August 20th, 1999,
11 sworn affidavit?
12 A Right. In that -- in that regard, in that
13 particular regard.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Now, do you have -- can I ask
15 the clerk for a document, your Honor?
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Plaintiff's 15B.
18 I'm going to show him 15B, which is Teresa
19 Summers' letter.
20 THE COURT: For the record, you probably
21 ought to say what you said to me.
22 I don't know, did you get that, Madam Court
23 Reporter?
24 THE REPORTER: Yes, ma'am, I did.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I guess I was speaking louder
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1119
1 than I thought.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q All right. I'm showing you the September 7th,
4 2001, Teresa Summers letter. And I believe you said on
5 redirect that you had learned about the Clambake money and
6 the issues with regard to the Clambake money in -- for the
7 first time -- or issues with regard to LMT money for the
8 first time in Teresa Summers' letter, right?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And this is Teresa Summers' letter?
11 A Yes, it is.
12 Q Now, can you look at page 1 of that letter.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Paragraph 1.
15 A Where it says, "Please be advised"?
16 Q I'm sorry, where it says --subparagraph 1. Do
17 you see where the No. 1 --
18 A Yes.
19 Q Where it says, "The revelation --" This is a
20 letter to Stacy Brooks from Teresa Summers, right?
21 A Correct.
22 Q "The revelation in your recent deposition that
23 800,000 was donated to the LMT from foreign sources and
24 that every penny of that money was delivered to Bob Minton
25 is very difficult to make sense of. For at least the last
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1120
1 six months, I have been told by you" all of the LMT
2 funding -- I've been told by you that all of the LMT
3 funding came from Bob Minton."
4 Do you see that?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q And that's what you were told as well, correct,
7 that all of the LMT funding came from Bob Minton?
8 A No, that's not what I was told.
9 Q Now, let me -- will you turn to the next-to-last
10 page, please. The last paragraph of the next-to-last page,
11 the one that says "in addition"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you see that? Summers says: "In addition,
14 Bob and Jesse were involved with bringing money into the
15 country illegally, and you have never discussed this matter
16 with me."
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you know what she's talking about?
19 A No. And she doesn't either. I never brought any
20 money into the country illegally.
21 Q And Ms. Summers is someone that's worked at the
22 LMT?
23 A Correct. I can tell you what Ms. Summers is
24 referring to, if you'd like to know.
25 THE COURT: It doesn't matter.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1121
1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Doesn't matter.
3 THE COURT: I have no idea why he bothered
4 to bring that out. Maybe he wanted you to look bad or
5 something.
6 THE WITNESS: Well . . .
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q All right. Now, finally, you testified on
9 redirect that the -- you testified about the release that
10 you executed with Mr. Rathbun at the end of October, the
11 beginning of November, 1992. Do you remember that
12 testimony?
13 A In November of 1992, I was not in the Sea Org. I
14 was in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
15 Q What I'm asking you is, Do you recall on redirect
16 you testified about the release that you executed at the
17 time that you left the Church of Scientology?
18 A Correct.
19 Q All right. And your testimony is that you were
20 under duress when you did that. Correct?
21 A Absolutely, yes.
22 Q And you executed it in a meeting -- in a meeting
23 with Mr. Rathbun, right?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Just you and Mr. Rathbun?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1122
1 A No. There were other staff there.
2 Q Do you remember who else was there?
3 A I believe Mr. Sutter was there.
4 Q They were sitting -- you were sitting in a
5 meeting with him?
6 A If I say he's there, that means that I can see
7 him. That means we're in the same room or something like
8 that, you know?
9 Q So you're saying he was there?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Okay. Well, let me show you two -- and then it's
12 your testimony that, at the end, Mr. Rathbun made you put
13 the wrong date on the release. Right? That was your
14 testimony?
15 A It was convenient for them to have it as
16 November, as opposed to October. I don't know why. That's
17 what I --
18 Q But it was his origination, not yours?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Okay. I'm going to play you a short clip from
21 the beginning of this meeting with Mr. Rathbun and then the
22 end of the meeting with Mr. Rathbun.
23 A You know, I resent that unless you show the whole
24 thing.
25 THE COURT: I think that's fair. If you're
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1123
1 going to show something and suggest whether he was or
2 wasn't under duress, you have to play the whole
3 meeting.
4 MR. WEINBERG: It's a long meeting. When I
5 have is the clip, and, you know, we can provide the
6 whole thing if you want it. But what I intend to do
7 on this redirect is to show him the beginning of the
8 meeting, which would indicate he was in the meeting,
9 and the end of the meeting where he signs the --
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- release.
12 (Jesse Prince interview with Marty Rathbun,
13 November 1, '92, was played as follows.)
14 MR. RATHBUN: Okay. This is Marty Rathbun
15 with Jesse Prince. And Jesse is going out of the Sea
16 Org, and he agreed to have a --
17 (The playback was interrupted.)
18 THE COURT: Where is Jesse Prince?
19 MR. WEINBERG: He's at the front.
20 (Continuing with tape.)
21 MR. RATHBUN: -- knowledge that he might
22 have about outstanding --
23 (The playback was stopped.)
24 MR. DANDAR: Does Mr. Prince know he's being
25 videotaped?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1124
1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Well, you knew the meeting was recorded.
4 A Not videotaped. And this is the first time I've
5 seen this, and this is really gross. This is from a hidden
6 camera.
7 Q Did you know it was being recorded or not?
8 A On tape. A tape recording was running, not a
9 video.
10 Q Is this you?
11 A Yes, it is. I think it is.
12 THE COURT: Doesn't look -- I'm sorry, it
13 doesn't look like him.
14 THE WITNESS: Let me see. They're full of
15 tricks.
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes, why don't you see.
17 THE WITNESS: I can't tell.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, when you hear your
19 voice, I think you can tell.
20 THE COURT: It does not look like Mr. Prince
21 to me.
22 THE WITNESS: You know, I really resent
23 this. This is secret. Taping this is exactly what
24 I've been saying here. This is exactly what they do,
25 the illegal surveillance. It's just sneaky all the
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1125
1 time.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I asked him the question, Did
3 you know you were being recorded?
4 THE COURT: He said no.
5 MR. WEINBERG: The answer is yes. I think
6 he said yes.
7 THE COURT: He knew there was a tape
8 recorder playing. He did not know he was being
9 videotaped.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I guess the question, your
11 Honor, is once you know that --
12 THE COURT: Quite frankly, I would resent
13 the tar out of it. I hope there's none of that going
14 on ever. If you're going to ever take a picture of
15 me, you'd better tell me, because I would resent the
16 tar out of it, to say nothing of the fact that I'm not
17 certain it's legal.
18 So whatever it is, Mr. Prince, you didn't
19 know anything about this?
20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. They did not
21 have my permission to do this.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 THE WITNESS: This is from a hidden, secret
24 camera.
25 THE COURT: Go ahead and play it. We'll
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1126
1 decide whether or not it's legal or not.
2 (The playback continued.)
3 MR. RATHBUN: -- cases going on or other
4 matters that are involved, illegal or whatever.
5 MR. PRINCE: That's right (unintelligible).
6 MR. RATHBUN: We're here alone?
7 MR. PRINCE: That's right.
8 MR. RATHBUN: Nobody else here?
9 MR. PRINCE: No coercion, nobody doing
10 anything.
11 MR. RATHBUN: Okay. And you're here of your
12 own free will?
13 MR. PRINCE: That's right.
14 MR. RATHBUN: There's no -- nobody is
15 holding anything over your head?
16 MR. PRINCE: Yes.
17 MR. RATHBUN: There's no threat?
18 MR. PRINCE: No threat, no pressure. I know
19 exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sitting here
20 (unintelligible) worrying about legal counsel knowing
21 what the hell is going on. I know exactly what I'm
22 doing in a professional capacity.
23 MR. RATHBUN: Great. Okay. The first thing
24 we're going to do was you've reviewed a couple of
25 outstanding complaints, which were the RICO case,
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1127
1 which is our --
2 (The playback was interrupted.)
3 THE WITNESS: You know, I can't hardly stand
4 this. I can hardly stand this.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I was going to play the end
6 of it.
7 THE COURT: Well, how in the world can you
8 play something that suggested somebody wasn't under
9 coercion and not play it? How do I know --
10 MR. WEINBERG: If we can -- we can play the
11 whole --
12 THE COURT: This is the RICO case? What is
13 your purpose in playing it?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Prince -- Mr. Prince said
15 that there were all kinds of people in the room, that
16 he was being coerced, that it was forced. And there
17 are no people.
18 THE WITNESS: They left the room.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me.
20 THE WITNESS: They had left the room. This
21 was totally staged, to protect the Church, as I've
22 given testimony before: Mr. Prince, this is what you
23 need to do to leave our compound.
24 So I'm sitting here doing whatever they
25 asked me to do to leave their compound. There's been
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1128
1 articles in George magazine, press -- Riverside Press,
2 and my suit about the coercion. So, you know, and now
3 you're showing me a secret camera thing? I resent
4 this highly. I really resent this.
5 MR. DANDAR: We object. And for the record,
6 that sure doesn't look like Mr. Prince.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know that's you.
8 You've heard you.
9 THE WITNESS: Look, I resent this because it
10 was done -- not only did everybody leave the room --
11 THE COURT: You mean there were others there
12 before this started?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Absolutely. They were
14 all standing around in that room. And then it's like,
15 "Okay, now, let's get this extra protection in."
16 Signing a release for your client wasn't
17 enough. Signing a release saying that they didn't
18 harm me or damage me wasn't enough for them. Now
19 they've got to sit down and do this. You know? I
20 really think anybody with common sense knows what's
21 going on here.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q When did you sign it? The beginning of the
24 meeting or the end of the meeting?
25 A What, the release?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1129
1 Q Yes.
2 A Probably at the end. I mean, they wanted me
3 to -- this is what I had to do to leave. I had been locked
4 up --
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I had to escape
6 from Scientology. They didn't even know where I went.
7 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it anymore.
8 If he didn't know about it, I don't want to see it.
9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That's all my
10 questions.
11 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, it can
12 be stricken.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Mr. Prince, do you have that affidavit that's --
18 THE COURT: And I might suggest in the
19 future, if you're going to videotape parishioners,
20 that they be told about it. Quite frankly, that is
21 not very churchly, to be candid.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, just to be
23 clear, it is the Church's position that Mr. Prince
24 absolutely knew this was being taped and the videotape
25 introductory section of this before the interview
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1130
1 starts shows them setting up electronic equipment.
2 And it's his testimony here that he didn't
3 know about it. That is not -- we do not go along with
4 that. I want the record to reflect that.
5 THE COURT: It's very odd that someone
6 leaving a Church has to be videotaped. The truth is,
7 it's very odd he would have to sign a release. I
8 mean, it's all very odd.
9 However, it's just my suggestion to you so
10 that you don't ever have to listen to somebody again
11 that you might just want to put it in your release, "I
12 understand that I'm being videotaped as I sign this."
13 Then you won't have to worry about it. I won't have
14 to hear somebody saying that he resents you taking my
15 picture, for whatever reason.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, this comes from --
17 THE COURT: I don't want to hear any more
18 about it.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 THE COURT: Go on ahead.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Mr. Prince, I want to direct your attention to
23 paragraph --
24 THE COURT: I didn't have to sign a release
25 when I left my church, quite frankly. I left, I went
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1131
1 back, who cared?
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Paragraph 15 of your --
4 THE COURT: Nobody ever sued me either. I
5 never testified against them.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Paragraph 15 of your April 2002 affidavit,
8 paragraph 15 -- I don't have the page numbers on my copy
9 for some strange reason. But the second page of
10 paragraph 15, could you please read the highlighted portion
11 on -- beginning --
12 THE COURT: Which affidavit is this now?
13 MR. DANDAR: The April 2002.
14 THE WITNESS: May 1st.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 A "Bob told me that I was the one making a big
17 mistake, that if I walked down this road with them, they
18 would hire an attorney for me and everything would be okay.
19 Both he and Stacy Brooks told me of a new life, where we
20 would all live in happiness and prosperity."
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q What were the details of living a new life in
23 happiness and prosperity?
24 A Retired, vacationing on the Islands regularly,
25 running around the world, world travel.
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1132
1 Q When you -- did the --
2 THE COURT: What paragraph was that?
3 MR. DANDAR: It was paragraph 15. If I had
4 the exhibit, I could give you the page number.
5 THE COURT: It's all right, paragraph 15.
6 MR. DANDAR: It's the second page of
7 paragraph 15. It's a real long paragraph. It's lines
8 19 through 22.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. DANDAR: And this wasn't part of the
11 recross of Mr. Weinberg, so if it's objected to, I
12 understand. But --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll object in advance.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Prince, when Teresita went insane or
16 psychotic, did she do it like Lisa did, in the middle of
17 the street, in public, or somewhere else?
18 A She did it -- she was at a work station -- oh,
19 god, we were in a big time crunch. We were making the
20 first --
21 THE COURT: We really don't care about that.
22 Was it out in public or at work?
23 THE WITNESS: No, it was at work.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q So there was no public PR flap?
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
Page 1133
1 A Correct.
2 MR. DANDAR: And outside of wanting to play
3 this videotape, that's all the questions I have.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Anything further?
5 Thank you, sir.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Your testimony is finished. You
8 may step down.
9 I don't know about that videotape either. I
10 have no idea what that is either. So you find
11 whatever it is you want to find, show it to counsel in
12 advance, see what it is, and see if we can make some
13 context out of it and see if it has any relevance.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right.
15 THE COURT: All right. Now, it's noontime.
16 It's 12:05. We'll be in recess until 1:15.
17 MR. WEINBERG: How about 1:30?
18 THE COURT: No, 1:15.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Or 1 o'clock?
20 THE COURT: No, 1:15.
21 MR. WEINBERG: 1:15, all right.
22 (A lunch recess was taken at 12:08 p.m.)
23 _______________________________
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Page 1134
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS
3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate
4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that
6 the transcript is a true record.
7 WITNESS MY HAND this 11th day of July, 2002, at
8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida.
9
10 _________________________________
Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR
11 Court Reporter
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