398
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 4
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Frank Oliver.
17
DATE: July 15, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
17 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 THE COURT: Okay, you may continue.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, we talked about, on the videos -- on the
4 video that we played, about how you and Mr. Minton had
5 gotten -- and you got the crowd to accuse Mr. Miscavige of
6 being a squirrel and -- do you remember seeing that?
7 A I don't recall if I was leading that chant. I
8 heard the chant but I don't recall if I was leading it.
9 Q Okay. Now, you spoke to -- were you one of the
10 folks that explained to Mr. Minton what a squirrel was and
11 how derogatory a term that is, particularly to accuse an
12 ecclesiastical leader of Scientology? Are you one of the
13 ones that explained that to him?
14 A No. I was not. I believe Mr. Minton knew the
15 definition of squirrel by the time we had met.
16 Q Now, the short time that you were in the Church of
17 Scientology in 1981, you know, working on the OSA staff, you
18 said, the --
19 A It was -- it was 1991.
20 Q I said 1991.
21 THE COURT: You said '81.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Excuse me. At that point, the IRS was perceived
24 as a huge enemy of the Church. Is that correct?
25 A Yes, it was.
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1 Q But in 1993, the Church was recognized by the IRS
2 as tax exempt. Do you remember that?
3 A I remember the circumstances leading to that.
4 Yes.
5 Q And you knew, while you were in -- you knew that
6 there was -- there were a few vocal public Scientologists
7 that were tax protesters? You became aware of that.
8 Correct?
9 A No.
10 Q That they were -- do you remember learning that
11 they were very upset with the Church of Scientology, and
12 particularly with Mr. Miscavige, when he issued -- or the
13 Church issued a policy prohibiting their activities as it
14 related to tax protests on Church property?
15 A No, I'm not familiar with what you are asking me
16 at all.
17 Q All right. So you are not familiar with the
18 publication they put out, the Squirrel Watcher? You are not
19 familiar with that?
20 A No. Not concerning the IRS. I'm familiar with
21 the whistle blower and how to file Freedom Of Information
22 Act booklet, but nothing called Squirrel Watcher that I can
23 recall from my time in Scientology.
24 Q All right. And you don't remember learning that
25 an organization of public Scientologists that were tax
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1 protesters had obtained secretly a mailing list of the
2 Church of Scientology and then mailed their protest
3 materials to various public Scientologists, prominent public
4 Scientologists around the country?
5 A No. This is the first I'm hearing of this. I
6 wasn't aware of this at all when I was involved.
7 Q Let me play you, if I can --
8 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, this will take one
9 and a half minutes.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q -- a video of you and Mr. Prince at a cult -- one
12 of these Cult Awareness conferences.
13 ______________________________________
14 (WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
15 "That is true, they are all lawyers --
16 "Give me a second.
17 "This is -- this is where somebody started
18 going through everything and putting together how
19 Miscavige has changed the tech and they put all of
20 the examples. So you can go back -- it is
21 documented, you can go back and read it. They also
22 got a hold of the mailing list of Scientology and
23 they made these little cards like this which call
24 into question some of the things that Scientology is
25 doing.
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1 "Like, for example, they did voice pattern
2 recognition of Hubbard on an older tape and compared
3 it to RJ 67. The voice pattern doesn't match. It's
4 not Hubbard speaking.
5 "Right.
6 "The fact they changed -- well, you'll see
7 it -- based on the work of L. Ron Hubbard.
8 Dianology. David Mayo's teaching.
9 "Go to the Squirrel.
10 "Ha-ha-ha.
11 "That is like a little game.
12 "I know. Squirrel.
13 "Sea Org.
14 "I want to show you the one that is really,
15 really funny.
16 "DM squeaks.
17 "Why, damn --
18 "This is so funny. Look at this. Instead of
19 'DM speaks, it is DM squeaks.'"
20 (End of playing of the videotape.)
21 ______________________________________
22 THE COURT: That doesn't seem to be, Counsel,
23 any sort of a meeting. It seemed like it was a
24 private thing. I mean, you indicated it was going
25 to be some -- some --
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1 MR. WEINBERG: I said this took place while
2 they were at a Cult Awareness conference, I believe.
3 This is part of the videos that were turned over by
4 the Lisa McPherson Trust.
5 THE COURT: But, I mean, when I watched that,
6 it doesn't look like this is part of any conference.
7 MR. WEINBERG: No, I was going to ask him.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q This was just you and Mr. Prince and Mr. Ward and
10 apparently Mr. Bunker in a hotel room while you were at this
11 conference. Correct?
12 A It was in Bob Minton's hotel room while, I
13 believe -- I think we were there for the purpose of the
14 conference, yeah.
15 I was showing him something on the Internet I
16 found that someone pointed out to me.
17 Q And what you were showing them is a publication on
18 the Internet by this group of tax protesters. And the
19 publication is called the "Squirrel Watcher," correct?
20 A I don't know that to be tax protesters. The
21 information on their web page was on a vast array of things.
22 But I can't limit it to just them being tax protesters.
23 Go to their web page. They are talking about a
24 lot of things on there, not just about taxes. I don't know
25 about them -- I don't know them to be tax protesters.
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1 Q You talked about them having taken or stolen the
2 mailing list of Scientology. You said that, right?
3 A I repeated to them what I was reading on the
4 screen. So whatever it said on the screen is what I said to
5 them. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of anything
6 these people did. I don't even know who they are.
7 Q All right. Well, let me show you -- have marked
8 two documents that were on the screen.
9 MR. WEINBERG: This is 245, your Honor. And
10 this is 246.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Now, 245, which is that first one that has The
13 Squirrel Watcher asks Dianology, with the Botu (phonetic),
14 the squirrel, at the bottom. Do you see that?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q That was the first one you pulled up on the screen
17 to show Mr. Prince. Correct?
18 A I believe so. Yes.
19 Q And then 246 is the one you said was really funny,
20 DM -- or "David Miscavige squeaks." That was the second one
21 that came on the screen. Correct?
22 A Yes, it was.
23 Q And you think it's funny to make fun of David
24 Miscavige?
25 A I thought what it said was funny.
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1 Q Now --
2 THE COURT: I take it you are not trying to
3 introduce these?
4 MR. WEINBERG: They were on the screen.
5 THE COURT: Well, I know. But -- I mean, they
6 can put Time Magazine on the screen. I mean, the
7 deal is you just can't get in stuff like this. I
8 mean, he says whatever he said about it, but --
9 MR. WEINBERG: All right, well, I move them
10 into evidence. And if you don't receive them, you
11 don't receive them.
12 THE COURT: I'll receive the Time Magazine if
13 I'm going to receive these. Do you want them or
14 not?
15 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Let me show you a Scientology policy directive.
19 You are familiar with Scientology policy directives.
20 Correct?
21 A It was a new type of issue introduced. Yes, I'm
22 familiar with it.
23 Q I didn't mean to interrupt you.
24 A It was a new type of issue introduced. It wasn't
25 an issue introduced by L. Ron Hubbard.
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1 Q These were issues introduced after L. Ron Hubbard
2 died?
3 A That is my understanding. Yes.
4 Q But they were still policies of the Church of
5 Scientology?
6 A They weren't written by L. Ron Hubbard.
7 THE COURT: I don't know what you are trying to
8 show him, what you are talking about. So let me see
9 what you are talking about. I don't know how he
10 knows, either, but -- I don't know what --
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Well, there were Scientology policy directives
13 when you were in the Church, were there not?
14 A I believe so.
15 Q Because you were in the Church after L. Ron
16 Hubbard died?
17 A Correct.
18 MR. WEINBERG: This is 247.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Now, you recognize 247 to be what is called
21 Scientology policy directive?
22 A Mmm, yes. Only that it's black and white.
23 Q Right. I mean, this happens to be -- this one
24 issued in April 21 of '96 with regard to Personal Income Tax
25 Additional is what it's called?
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1 A That is correct. I have never seen this issue
2 before, though.
3 Q My question to you is, however, you made lots of
4 statements when you were on the stand about how the only
5 policy of the Church of Scientology or something to that
6 effect -- is policies that have been written by L. Ron
7 Hubbard. You said something to that effect. Right?
8 A Something to that effect.
9 Q Right. But when L. Ron Hubbard was alive, the
10 Church of Scientology didn't have tax exemption, did it?
11 A No.
12 Q Did it?
13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll object. This document
14 has not been authenticated as being within this
15 person's personal experience in Scientology.
16 THE COURT: Well, there is a lot of policies
17 that come in and have come in. If he said he never
18 saw it, I don't see how you can get this one in.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I haven't even offered it yet.
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm objecting to the line of
21 questioning unless the predicate is laid.
22 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm doing. He just
23 said he knew what Scientology policy directives
24 were.
25 THE COURT: Right.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q And when -- and you knew that after L. Ron Hubbard
3 died, there were a variety of things, like tax exemption,
4 which wasn't even an issue when L. Ron Hubbard was alive,
5 that the Church issued policies on that became policies of
6 the Church of Scientology, regardless of what Mr. Hubbard
7 had done or said. Correct?
8 A I don't understand it to be the way you have just
9 characterized it. No.
10 Q All right. Now, you designed anti-Scientology ads
11 to go on PSTA buses in Clearwater in or about December of
12 1998. Correct?
13 A That is incorrect.
14 Q Did you have anything to do with ads that were
15 critical of the Church of Scientology going up on buses in
16 Clearwater in 1998?
17 A They may have -- you are characterizing them as
18 being critical of Scientology. And I don't see them as
19 that.
20 Q So you thought these were favorable to the Church
21 of Scientology?
22 A No.
23 Q In any event, you had something to do with ads
24 about Scientology going up on buses in Clearwater. Correct?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q You were responsible for that campaign, weren't
2 you?
3 A Yes.
4 Q How many signs -- how many different signs went up
5 on buses?
6 A I believe it was thirteen. I believe that was the
7 number. Some of them didn't get to go on buses because we
8 ran out of time.
9 Q All right. How many actually went up on buses?
10 A I believe it was thirteen. I don't -- I can't be
11 specific about it, but I believe it was thirteen.
12 Q I see. When you said -- so there actually were
13 more than thirteen but you didn't get more than thirteen up
14 on buses?
15 A I believe that is what happened, yes.
16 Q And who wrote these thirteen individual phrases?
17 THE COURT: Were they thirteen different
18 phrases?
19 THE WITNESS: It was actually more. Some of
20 them, I think, may have been repeated. Since I
21 never got to see all of the buses with the ads on
22 them, I can't -- I can't be 100 percent sure, but --
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 THE WITNESS: -- but I'm thinking -- the number
25 13 stands out in my mind as the ones that were
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1 actually done and put up. But I had come up with
2 some of them. Some of them were suggestions from
3 the web, just people that had posted things on the
4 Internet.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q I mean, had you gone on the web seeking advice as
7 to what should go up on buses?
8 A No. No one knew about this campaign.
9 Q Well, who else was involved in the campaign other
10 than you?
11 A At the last minute I recruited two individuals to
12 help me. They weren't aware of it until thirty minutes
13 before we got to the bus station. I had Arnie Lerma and --
14 Mmm -- Gary Scarff -- I think his name was Gary Scarff. I
15 asked them at the bar at the Holiday Inn if they would come
16 help me on something that I had put together.
17 And they said, "What is it?"
18 And I wouldn't tell them until we got to the bus
19 yard. So no one knew the particulars of this except myself.
20 Q And you -- who paid for all this?
21 A I did.
22 Q And how much did it cost?
23 A Mmm, at the time, I -- I believe this was in -- I
24 produced these myself with my own equipment at the time.
25 Q I couldn't hear what you said.
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1 A I said I produced this myself with my own
2 equipment.
3 Q You produced the signs. But, I mean, did you have
4 to pay PSTA to put them up on the buses?
5 A No. I paid Gateway Outdoor Advertising. That is
6 the company that handles the advertising contract for PSTA.
7 It is not actually paid to PSTA. You pay the agency that
8 handles the advertising on the buses.
9 Q How much did you have to pay for that?
10 A The contract was for $400 for two days. And I --
11 because of the subsequent disruptance of that contract, I
12 was only actually billed for the amount of time the signs
13 were on the buses. So it only wound up costing me $133 and
14 change.
15 Q Now, do you remember that one of your signs said,
16 "Don't walk, run. Quit Scientology"?
17 A That may have been one of the ones that were put
18 on the bus.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach, your Honor?
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q I am referring to Defense Exhibit 161 already in
23 evidence. I'll just show you these signs on buses.
24 The first one, "Don't walk, run. Quit
25 Scientology," that is one of your signs?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q At the bottom of the sign it says, "For
3 information, go to www.FACTNet.org." Do you see that?
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q Why did you refer, in the sign, to FACTNet?
6 A It was an organization that was online providing
7 information about Scientology. And an individual seeing
8 that, wanting to know what that was about, could go to
9 FACTNet and get factual information.
10 Q You knew Mr. Minton was involved in FACTNet?
11 A In some way. Not exactly what his complete role
12 was.
13 Q The second sign says, "Think for yourself. Quit
14 Scientology," with a dollar sign. Is that one of your
15 signs?
16 A Yes, I believe that is.
17 Q The third one says, "Are you really happy in the
18 Sea Org?" Is that one of your signs?
19 A Yes, that is.
20 Q The fourth one says, "Who really reads your
21 confidential PC folders?" Is that one of your signs?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q The next one says, "Want to leave the Sea Org? We
24 can help." That is one of your signs?
25 A Yes. I believe that is, also.
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1 Q You would not characterize those signs as being
2 favorable to Scientology, would you?
3 A Favorable to someone wanting to leave, yes.
4 Q Now, you objected to the signs being taken down,
5 didn't you?
6 A Yes, I did.
7 Q And you hired Mr. Dandar to represent you at a
8 PSTA meeting which took place a month or so later?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And you paid Mr. Dandar for this?
11 A Not yet.
12 Q Well, you had some understanding about paying him?
13 A There is more work I'm sure Mr. Dandar would do
14 for me. And we have an agreement that when I'm able to, I
15 will pay him for his efforts.
16 Q And has Mr. Dandar represented you with regard to
17 any other thing other than the billboards?
18 A Not as of yet.
19 Q Now, and then you and Mr. Dandar appeared at the
20 PSTA meeting?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now, do you remember that prior to the meeting out
23 in -- out in public, that you and Ray Emmons, Mr. Dandar's
24 investigator, Mr. Dandar and Brian Haney, had a discussion
25 about this whole sign thing that was videod by Mr. Bunker?
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1 A Mark Bunker may have videotaped something. It may
2 have happened. I'm not -- I don't know. If you're going to
3 show me a videotape, I'll remember when I see it. I don't
4 remember it specifically, but it may have happened.
5 Q And what was Mr. Haney's role with regard to these
6 signs on buses?
7 THE COURT: Who is that?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Brian Haney.
9 THE COURT: Who is that? One of the witnesses?
10 MR. WEINBERG: He testified in front of you.
11 Do you remember?
12 THE COURT: I don't remember.
13 MR. WEINBERG: He was the guy with the lawyer
14 from Ohio.
15 THE COURT: Okay. I remember.
16 A Mr. Haney was a friend of mine and wanted to come
17 down and show his support.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Well, he also showed up at the PSTA meeting, as
20 well?
21 A Yes. He did.
22 Q He was on the original board of the Lisa McPherson
23 Trust?
24 A I believe so.
25 Q He's a trial consultant of Mr. Dandar in the Lisa
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1 McPherson case?
2 A He may be. I don't know that for a fact. I don't
3 know all his consultants.
4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Play this short
5 tape, please.
6 Well, hold on. Before you do. This might
7 assist you. This is pretty clear, but ...
8 ______________________________________
9 (WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
10 "Good morning, Counselor.
11 "Yeah.
12 "You want to see something funny? How are you
13 doing? Just kind of casually turn around and look
14 at that guy in the brown jacket behind you. See him
15 there?
16 "Yeah.
17 "We came and dropped these off so she could
18 pass them out. He's got one. So she could pass
19 them out. This is like 8~o'clock this morning.
20 That guy walks up to us and goes, 'I know who you
21 guys are. Yeah. You have done a great job. You
22 stop Scientology.' Right -- totally unsolicited.
23 'I know who you guys are.'
24 "Now, if they went out and said you're not
25 allowed to criticize churches on city buses --
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1 "Uh-huh.
2 "-- they would lose on that. But they are
3 trying to make it as broad as they can.
4 "Let me ask you, the statements that were made
5 on the side of the buses, they were actually
6 questions. They weren't statements. I asked
7 questions. Every single statement had a question
8 mark at the end. They were all questions.
9 "Quit Scientology?
10 "All except that one. 'Don't walk, run. Quit
11 Scientology.'
12 (Inaudible.)
13 "Okay, but what if I put "Doubt is not a
14 crime"? Where does it say anything about
15 Scientology?
16 "I don't know. What good is that? Why would
17 you do that?
18 "-- Scientologists that read them.
19 "Who cares? I paid the money for the ad space.
20 Right?
21 "What you really want is the general public to
22 get it.
23 (Inaudible.)
24 "One of the things we should do is we should
25 absolutely positively probably go Eller --
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1 (inaudible) -- the people who run the billboards.
2 Show them the layout for the new ad, find out the
3 costs and all that kind of stuff. Get a listing of
4 available locations.
5 "I don't think there is any on Ft. Harrison.
6 "Near the Ft. Harrison. I think --
7 (inaudible.)
8 "Let's get this really big light and you can
9 put this thing on called a gobo --
10 "Gobo.
11 "It's a piece of metal that shines light
12 through inside this lens. It will project a 60-foot
13 image on the side of the building.
14 "Ha-ha-ha.
15 "No.
16 "It could be an imagine that was like an
17 outline of Lisa's face that says --
18 "For information on the death of Lisa
19 McPherson, call --
20 (Inaudible.)
21 "Did you know her?
22 "No.
23 "Pretty. Dead. Powerful.
24 "It is powerful, isn't it?
25 "Yeah.
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1 "Well, they ran those truth ads on the
2 billboards, you know, 'Their product is lies. Ours
3 is truth.' They are running those right here in
4 Clearwater so Eller's going to say, "Yeah, sure,
5 stick it up. Pay us." They're not going to care.
6 "The same thing as the truth campaign.
7 (Inaudible.)
8 "Who are they talking about?
9 "From cigarette companies. It shows like a
10 really pretty woman with a cigarette company
11 executive's head on her. Then they say something
12 like, 'This is the image they want you to have.'
13 And, 'Tobacco executives hide behind models,' or
14 something like that.
15 "Would you buy cigarettes from this man,
16 basically, or something like that, with the body of
17 a beautiful woman in a bikini and this old guy's
18 head.
19 "Yeah. This is it. This is the one. This is
20 the one he mentioned last time. He's going with
21 this.
22 "That's the guy from the Department of
23 Transportation -- (inaudible) -- that was sitting
24 next to us at the last meeting, that I got the copy
25 of the memo from, from the Department of
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1 Transportation?
2 "But he didn't give us his number on that --
3 (Inaudible.)
4 "Here is the document.
5 "Does that proposal say that the -- whatever
6 they put up has to convey a commercial message?
7 "Yeah.
8 "Yes.
9 "He's following this.
10 "Let me ask you something. Is Mr. Zimmet a
11 lawyer in his own right? Or is he being propped up
12 and fed by some other sharks?
13 "No, he's part of a private law firm.
14 "So you don't feel that he's consulted with
15 Scientology's attorneys?
16 "Oh, no, I didn't say that.
17 "I did.
18 "I know.
19 "But, I mean, any two people can meet in a
20 restaurant and have a cup of coffee. Right?
21 "That is right.
22 "In America.
23 "In America. I mean, any two people can
24 discuss a point of law. Right?
25 "The fact of the matter is that what they did
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1 before by taking -- by prohibiting the signs was
2 absolutely illegal because there are no
3 regulations --
4 "They're cooked on that. They are toast --
5 "Yeah.
6 "They've got to let me have my signs.
7 "Well, the matter is what are your damages.
8 Right?
9 "I'm sure --
10 "What are my damages? Oh, man, I had to fly up
11 here two or three times. It's cost me thousands of
12 dollars of lost income.
13 "Plus the humiliation and damage to your
14 business reputation -- (inaudible).
15 "People who have flown in from all over the
16 country to see signs for this event and they've been
17 denied this. I mean --
18 "But I'm curious, where is this video going to
19 be aired?
20 "Mmm --
21 "Is this only for private consumption?"
22 (End of playing of videotape.)
23 ______________________________________
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q When you were talking on the video about the gobo,
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1 you know, that projects the big thing up on -- you were
2 talking about a gobo that can project the big thing up on
3 the side of the Ft. Harrison, do you remember that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q All right. In fact, sometime after this
6 conversation with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Haney, Mr. Emmons, you
7 actually projected, on the side of the Ft. Harrison with a
8 gobo, a big image of something about Lisa McPherson, didn't
9 you?
10 A During the candlelight vigil, yes.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I'll play one other short video,
12 your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Well, what is it and what is its
14 relevance?
15 MR. WEINBERG: It is thirty seconds. And it is
16 outside the Ft. Harrison with Mr. Dandar and various
17 people present.
18 And what is being done is projecting something
19 on the side of the Ft. Harrison, which obviously
20 they didn't have authorization or permission to do.
21 ______________________________________
22 (WHEREUPON, the video was played.)
23 "There we go.
24 "Where is Tim?
25 "Look on the Ft. Harrison.
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1 "Hey, they almost did this between two cars
2 back here.
3 "You guys can read that?
4 "Oh.
5 "Michael, can you take this?
6 "Sure."
7 (End of playing of the videotape.)
8 ______________________________________
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Do you remember doing that? Were you in the car,
11 Mr. Oliver?
12 A Yes, I was.
13 Q And did anybody give you permission, from the
14 Church of Scientology, to put that image up on its building?
15 A Actually, the sergeant on the corner said it was
16 fine.
17 Q The sergeant -- you mean somebody from the Church
18 said it was okay to put that image up on the building?
19 A No. A sergeant from the Clearwater Police
20 Department said that it was breaking no laws as long as the
21 vehicle kept moving.
22 Q And what -- well, was the vehicle moving when you
23 projected it?
24 A At that point in time it was a red light so the
25 vehicle couldn't move. But the vehicle drove around the
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1 building, at which point we were accosted by two vehicles.
2 And the police officer had to dispatch a crew to the back to
3 keep people from trying to block our car.
4 Q And that -- that big gobo image that you projected
5 on the side of the Ft. Harrison said, "We will --" what?
6 A It said, "We will never forget you, Lisa
7 McPherson," or, "Lisa McPherson, we will never forget you."
8 Q And in addition to getting permission from the
9 police officer to do this on the side of the Scientology
10 building, did you ask permission from Mr. Dandar, for
11 example, who was present?
12 A No. This was something I did on my own. In fact,
13 the driver of the vehicle didn't even know who was going to
14 do it until I said, "Can you drive me around the building
15 once or twice, I want to do something." I didn't ask
16 anyone's permission.
17 THE COURT: I presume you're going to enter
18 this tape. Frankly, the tape was so bad they
19 couldn't get "never" up there, "we shall ever forget
20 you."
21 Besides that, it was not very big. Whatever it
22 was they were trying to do they failed.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I -- I understand.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Now, you signed a staff contract when you were on
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1 staff. Correct?
2 A Yes. I believe so.
3 Q You understood, when you signed that contract,
4 that you obligated yourself, much like any employee of an
5 organization, to certain rules and regulations of the
6 organization. Right?
7 A At the time I signed it, yes.
8 Q Let me show you that contract.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay, this is 248, your Honor.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Now, look at Exhibit 248. Tell me if this is the
12 contract that you signed on February 26, 1991.
13 A It looks like a contract I signed, yes.
14 Q Do you recognize your signature on the contract?
15 A Yes.
16 Q All right. Now, I want you to look at the first
17 page --
18 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach, I'll just
19 show him. It is easier to describe it.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q This paragraph here that says, "I agree to
22 maintain the confidentiality," it is toward the bottom.
23 A Yes.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Right here, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: I see it.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q I want to go over this with you. You say in this
3 agreement you signed when you were working at the Church, "I
4 agree to maintain the confidentiality of all communications,
5 whether written or oral, all documents, all files, all
6 mailing lists and all other materials," collectively
7 materials, "which may come into my knowledge or possession
8 during my service as a staff member of the Church or any
9 other Scientology organizations.
10 "In other words, without limiting the generality
11 of the foregoing, I agree not to remove materials from the
12 premises where I perform, and not to disclose contents or
13 give copies of materials coming into my possession except in
14 the ordinary course of performing as a staff member.
15 "Upon conclusion of my service as a staff member,
16 I agree to return all materials given to me in the course of
17 my service, and not to disclose any information to anyone
18 without the prior written consent of the Church of
19 Scientology."
20 Do you see that?
21 A I see that.
22 Q And do you understand what that means?
23 A I believe I do.
24 Q And do you understand that that means that you had
25 no authorization to -- to remove any document that you
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1 received while working at the Church of Scientology?
2 A That is what it states.
3 Q And you violated that when you left the Church of
4 Scientology with that package of documents that -- some of
5 which you introduced into evidence, didn't you?
6 A I didn't leave the Church of Scientology with that
7 packet of documents.
8 Q Well, what, they just left on their own?
9 A They were already part of my possession and they
10 were part of the course I was doing. Like any course I had
11 done, the materials related to that course were my property.
12 Q So the hat -- the -- the checklist that you went
13 through -- that you claim you went through with regard to
14 OSA was not generally available, that -- that wasn't
15 generally available to members of the public, was it? That
16 was an OSA checklist. Do you remember?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Those notes from the cases that you worked on,
19 those handwritten notes, you are not suggesting that someone
20 told you that you could leave with those, are you?
21 A Those were part of my -- those were part of the
22 packet of materials I had. Which notes specifically are you
23 referring to so I can answer you specifically about notes?
24 THE COURT: If you are going to refer to
25 something I haven't allowed in evidence, then maybe
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1 we have to put it in evidence. I didn't allow that
2 so we need to get past that.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I only asked -- I'm just
4 trying to establish that he took, without
5 authorization, documents.
6 THE COURT: Well --
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q In violation of the agreement that you entered
9 into, isn't that correct?
10 A These were things I had in my possession. I had
11 the course packet because it was a course that I had done
12 and was doing in Scientology. It was a course I resigned.
13 The other materials I had because they were in a
14 folder along with the course.
15 I was never asked to return my hat pack or any
16 other of those documents. The documents I was asked to
17 return was one file concerning something -- some cycle I was
18 working on. And it was returned, and it says so on my
19 declare.
20 Q In order to ask for something back, one has to
21 know that you took it. Correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And now did you tell someone at the Church of
24 Scientology, when you left, that you had taken these
25 documents?
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1 A I didn't have to tell them if they knew I had
2 them.
3 Q You are not suggesting that they --
4 A My senior --
5 Q Let me finish my question.
6 You are not suggesting that they knew you had
7 those notes, are you?
8 A Sure, they did.
9 Q Now, at some point in 1998 you referred to these
10 documents in some proceeding -- referred to documents in
11 some proceeding, and you received a letter from Moxon &
12 Kobrin putting you on notice that you had -- you did not
13 have authorization to have these documents and you needed to
14 return them.
15 Do you remember that?
16 A I remember receiving a letter and forwarding that
17 correspondence to my attorney at that time, which is Dan
18 Leipold in California.
19 Q All right. And you had become familiar with Dan
20 Leipold through your Scientology critic activities?
21 A Through friends and associates that were involved
22 in similar endeavors, yes, I became familiar with Dan
23 Leipold and had spoken to him. And he agreed to represent
24 me on that matter, so he asked I forward him the letter,
25 which I did.
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1 Q All right. And do you remember in the letter that
2 he wrote back -- do you remember that he wrote back to
3 Ms. Kobrin from Moxon & Kobrin?
4 A I believe he replied to the correspondence that I
5 forwarded to him.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. This is a package, 249 A
7 and B.
8 249 A is a May 26, 1998 letter to you from
9 Mr. Kobrin.
10 And 249 B is a June 1, 1998 letter to
11 Ms. Kobrin from Mr. Leipold.
12 249 A and B.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, 249 A is the letter that you received from
15 Ms. Kobrin on or about May 26, 1998?
16 A That is correct.
17 Q And in the second paragraph she refers to you
18 illegally -- having learned that you had illegally obtained
19 some files, and she lists the ones that she's aware of?
20 A That is what it states in this letter.
21 Q And then she demands that you return them.
22 Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you return them?
25 A No. I forwarded this letter to my attorney.
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1 Q All right. Then 249 B is a letter dated June 1,
2 1998 that Mr. Leipold wrote to Ms. Kobrin in your behalf.
3 Right?
4 A That is correct.
5 Q And do you see at the bottom of Page 1,
6 Mr. Leipold -- Number 5 there -- says, "If you --" that
7 being, I guess, the Church of Scientology "-- file a
8 complaint against him, you can expect a counterclaim that is
9 legally and factually sound that will necessarily publicly
10 expose massive illegal activities by Scientology."
11 Do you see that?
12 A Yes. I see that in the letter.
13 Q So you were threatening -- then he goes on to say,
14 "I do not relate this to you as a threat."
15 Well, what would you call that if -- if not a
16 threat?
17 A I don't know. You'll have to ask Mr. Leipold, who
18 wrote the letter.
19 THE COURT: He said, "I relate it to you as a
20 fact."
21 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Well, did you authorize him to make that threat to
24 the Church of Scientology that you were going to expose all
25 kinds of criminal things?
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1 A I --
2 MR. LIROT: Objection.
3 A I didn't write the letter, sir.
4 THE COURT: Sustained. The deal is this is
5 Mr. Leipold's letter. We have to assume Mr. Leipold
6 will say he authorized it, but it is still
7 Mr. Leipold's words.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Now, you testified while you were on the stand on
10 direct, I believe, that you were producing these documents
11 that you left the Church of Scientology with pursuant to a
12 subpoena. Is that right?
13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was that?
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q You --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'll state the question again.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q I believe you testified on direct that you were
19 producing a document -- the documents that you had -- you
20 know, the ones you had had at the Church -- that you were
21 producing pursuant to a subpoena that had been given to you
22 by the plaintiff in this case. Right?
23 A Correct.
24 Q All right. And that is why you were producing
25 them, because you had been subpoenaed to produce them.
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1 Right?
2 A That is correct.
3 Q Now, when did you tell Mr. Lirot or Mr. Dandar
4 that you had these documents?
5 A Mmm, I don't recall when I told them. I don't
6 recall when it was specifically. It was prior to this.
7 Q Well, why did you have to be subpoenaed?
8 A I don't know. I didn't issue the subpoena.
9 Q Well, you have been a trial consultant for
10 Mr. Dandar for how many years now?
11 A A couple, probably.
12 Q I mean, so was it just a ploy to give you a
13 subpoena so you could have some protection from the Court
14 for producing these documents?
15 MR. LIROT: Objection.
16 THE COURT: What is it? What is your
17 objection?
18 MR. LIROT: It is privileged.
19 THE COURT: Well, overruled.
20 A I didn't issue --
21 THE COURT: Unless you tell me you represent
22 him.
23 MR. LIROT: He's -- he's a -- excuse me, Judge,
24 I'll stand up -- didn't he say he was a trial
25 consultant?
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1 THE COURT: Well, he did. But the question is
2 whether or not this was a ploy to be able to produce
3 documents without any sort of verification. That
4 doesn't sound like a consultant type of question. I
5 mean, I wouldn't assume you-all would be involved
6 with ploys.
7 I assume this man can answer this question.
8 A I don't know what he means by a ploy. I was
9 issued a subpoena to produce documents. And I provided the
10 documents. I don't know what you mean by ploy.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Well, how about getting around the violation of
13 those clear terms in the contract that you weren't
14 authorized to do that?
15 THE COURT: Counsel, he obviously has testified
16 and will continue to testify that doesn't apply;
17 that these were his. For all of the reasons he said
18 so now two or three times.
19 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I have made my
20 point.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Now, you never did anything that was illegal while
23 you were working in the Church, did you?
24 A This is a difficult question to answer.
25 Q Well --
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1 A I have been reprimanded by a judge in the past for
2 attempting to answer this exact same question. And I would
3 like to try to answer it if I could.
4 THE COURT: If you think you did something
5 illegal, say so. If you don't think you did, say
6 you didn't. I'm not going to reprimand you for
7 trying to give a truthful answer.
8 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object. I think
9 that calls for a legal conclusion.
10 THE COURT: Well, you know what? There are
11 some things that lawyers only can answer. There are
12 other things that we all would know would be
13 illegal. Stealing, for example, would be illegal.
14 Murdering would be illegal. Improperly intercepting
15 a wire would be illegal. I mean, there are some
16 things we all know, whether we are lawyers or what.
17 So, I mean, he can tell us if he did any of
18 those things that any law person would know was
19 illegal.
20 A When I was given the credit reports and phone
21 records to go over, I felt that at the time they were
22 obtained by some illegal method and I was going to have
23 something to do with those documents. So I was very uneasy
24 with that request that was made to me at that time and felt
25 I was being involved in something that wasn't right.
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1 I didn't obtain those reports myself. However, I
2 was going to touch them and do something with them. And I
3 knew that that wasn't okay, what I was doing.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Do you remember you testified in the Minton
6 battery trial on May 22nd, 2000? Do you remember that?
7 A Mmm, yes.
8 Q All right. Well, let me read you these questions
9 and tell me if these were your answers. Page 51, Line 19.
10 Question from the prosecutor: "Question: It also
11 begs the question. You had no problem performing illegal
12 activities, did you?"
13 Your answer: "I never performed an illegal
14 activity when I was a member of the Church of Scientology.
15 "Question: You did not?
16 "Answer: No, sir. I did not."
17 Page 52, Line 21, "Question: You just told me a
18 minute ago that you didn't do anything illegal.
19 "Answer: I never did anything illegal.
20 "Question: Okay. I don't understand your last
21 answer.
22 "Answer: Well, I am sure that someone is measured
23 by the number of illegal acts that they commit. I, however,
24 was measured by the number of legal things that I did."
25 Page 52.
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1 Were those the questions and those the answers
2 that you gave under oath during the Minton trial?
3 A Yes, they were. It was --
4 Q Excuse me. And you testified --
5 MR. DANDAR: Well, he interrupted.
6 THE COURT: Yes, you did. If you want to
7 explain that answer, please let him finish, Counsel.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
9 A I answered that question that way after being
10 reprimanded by the judge -- and having asked the jury to
11 leave -- and I answered where I felt what I did wasn't
12 illegal but my involvement in having those documents in my
13 hand, the credit report, phone bills and whatnot, what I was
14 asked to do, I felt that wasn't right. But I didn't obtain
15 that credit report myself and I didn't obtain those phone
16 records --
17 THE COURT: That was in that trial?
18 THE WITNESS: No. The question I was asked was
19 if I had done something illegal. And I face the
20 same quandary.
21 THE COURT: I'm asking you that discussion you
22 just had with Mr. Weinberg, if I were to read that
23 trial transcript, would I find that in there?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know if that gets
25 reported on the record. They asked the jury to
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1 leave. So I don't know if it would be in there.
2 THE COURT: It would be in there if it
3 happened.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay, well --
5 THE COURT: Then it would be in there.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm assuming it is in there.
7 THE COURT: Counsel, is it in there?
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know.
9 THE COURT: If it is, don't play games with me.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to play games with
11 you.
12 THE COURT: If that is the same answer he --
13 MR. WEINBERG: This is all I was given.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, do your own work,
15 Counsel. Don't be given something by somebody and
16 try to impeach somebody. If you don't know if that
17 is what he said in that trial, what he said here,
18 you can't impeach him.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we have the whole
20 transcript.
21 THE COURT: Okay. And you can't say, now or in
22 the future, if I find out about something like this,
23 "Oh, well, that is what I was given." You are the
24 lawyer. It's your credibility.
25 MR. WEINBERG: That is right but --
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1 THE COURT: It's your credibility.
2 MR. WEINBERG: It is my credibility, but the
3 question was did you do anything -- I mean, I can't
4 remember exactly.
5 THE COURT: I understand that. But he just
6 explained this to me. He just said to me, "I don't
7 know how to answer that question because I have been
8 put down a couple times by a judge --"
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay, well, we'll --
10 THE COURT: "-- about that."
11 So I said, "I'll not put you down, go ahead and
12 try to answer it."
13 So then he answers it. Then you get something
14 that is different but he said he told that judge the
15 same thing.
16 And you can't -- I -- I shouldn't have to rely
17 on people like this to tell me those things. By
18 that, I mean this witness.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, here is what he -- it
20 doesn't look like he is being chastised by the
21 judge. Here, I'll give you the page.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: The testimony is on Page --
24 THE COURT: Is this all his testimony?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, this is all his testimony.
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1 The testimony I just read is on 51. And there is
2 back to 50.
3 THE COURT: Okay. I don't have time to read it
4 now. I'm just telling you, if I read this and I
5 find that in there, and then there is no impeachment
6 there --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I mean, I read it
8 in context. I didn't see anything like that.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q You have a business relationship with Brian Haney
12 who testified in this case?
13 A No, I do not.
14 Q Has he provided you funds in the last few years
15 to -- that has anything to do with your Scientology
16 activities?
17 A No. He has not.
18 Q Have you been in his employ?
19 A Yes, I have.
20 Q Isn't that a business relationship?
21 A But it has nothing to do with Scientology as you
22 just asked me.
23 Q But my first question was do you have a business
24 relationship with Brian Haney?
25 A No, I don't. I currently do not.
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1 Q But you did?
2 A Yes.
3 Q During what period of time -- during the time that
4 you were in the PSTA thing?
5 A Could you refresh my memory as to what year that
6 was?
7 Q December of '98/January of '99.
8 A No. I believe my relationship with Mr. Haney was
9 after this, I believe.
10 Q Did he buy your business?
11 A No, he didn't buy my business.
12 Q Now, you have stated that, from your experience in
13 Scientology, that nothing ever changes, particularly since
14 Mr. Hubbard died, something to that effect. Correct?
15 A Not exactly as you characterized it. The writings
16 of Mr. Hubbard are not to be changed except by Mr. Hubbard.
17 Q Well, do you remember testifying, on questions
18 from Mr. Lirot -- I'm referring to the -- to a dirty
19 transcript which means a transcript before the final one
20 comes out, we just get off the machine here, 181, 182, do
21 you remember testifying that the only individual who can
22 cancel a policy is L. Ron Hubbard? Do you remember that?
23 A The only person who can cancel an L. Ron Hubbard
24 policy is L. Ron Hubbard.
25 Q Do you remember saying that the only person who
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1 can change anything in Scientology is L. Ron Hubbard?
2 A In the context in which I answered that question.
3 The only person that can change L. Ron Hubbard is L. Ron
4 Hubbard.
5 Q So that your understanding, from your eight months
6 or so -- you were on -- you were only on staff for a total
7 of about eight months. Correct?
8 A I don't know that to be correct.
9 Q You were only out in L.A. on this CAN project for
10 three weeks, correct, in 1991?
11 A I don't recall it as being three weeks. I believe
12 it was a bit longer.
13 Q Just a few weeks?
14 A It could have been -- I remember being out there
15 for the month of July and possibly part of August, but I
16 don't have anything for certain to tell me other than, you
17 know, the stuff that I do have that has dates on it that
18 tells me where I was at that particular point in time.
19 Q So that it was your experience, understanding,
20 when you were in the Church, for however long it was, that
21 once L. Ron Hubbard died, that everything in Scientology was
22 going to have to remain static?
23 A No. The policies written by L. Ron Hubbard were
24 not to be changed. That is a point driven home in every
25 course you do, with Keeping Scientology Working, the first
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1 policy letter on every course that I have ever done and that
2 I have ever known anyone else doing in Scientology.
3 Q And was it your understanding that the Church was
4 unable to write new policies to address changing technology
5 in changing times?
6 A My understanding that the writings of L. Ron
7 Hubbard could only be changed by L. Ron Hubbard.
8 THE COURT: Isn't that one of the biggest
9 brouhas going on right now with some of the
10 anti-Scientologists, I mean, in fact, the present
11 folks are, indeed, trying to change the writings of
12 L. Ron Hubbard? Isn't that one of the big rifts
13 going on right now?
14 MR. WEINBERG: I think that is what people like
15 Mr. Oliver will say. But what I'll show him, I'll
16 show him some policies where, in fact, there are
17 many different kinds of policies in the Church and
18 they are continually updated, you know, as -- you
19 know, as opposed to something that Mr. Hubbard
20 wrote, for example, setting forth how one audits a
21 particular person with regard to a particular
22 technique, there are all kinds of policies. And I
23 was going through a few to show that they are
24 continually updated.
25 THE COURT: Well, you know, that -- as I said,
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1 it may be. But that is apparently one of the big
2 disagreements here between some of the folks, as I
3 understand it, in and out, or perhaps even in, as to
4 whether or not that is proper, whether Mr. Hubbard's
5 policies can be changed.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I think we'll show you there are
7 even policies that he wrote that -- as is not
8 surprising -- that would contemplate the fact that
9 with the gloss of time, things have to change.
10 THE COURT: Well, mine probably ought to be
11 changed, too. But it isn't. It stays the same. It
12 stays constant. It never changes. And you may have
13 different versions and what have you. You just
14 don't go back and change it because times have
15 changed.
16 MR. WEINBERG: There are all kinds of policies.
17 Policies that have to do with how you run an org and
18 how you do --
19 THE COURT: Policies in the Church of
20 Scientology and scripture is somewhat different.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe my constitutional friend
22 can explain this.
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, the Bible may not
24 change but the Vatican is continually updating
25 Catholic church policy. The -- the authorities in
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1 various branches of the Jewish religion are
2 continuing to change.
3 THE COURT: Policy. But they don't contend the
4 scripture, do they? No one in the Church of
5 Scientology contends that L. Ron Hubbard's policy
6 letters are scripture, that I know of.
7 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm sorry, your Honor. I
8 missed that.
9 THE COURT: I said, no other religion I'm aware
10 of -- and that is not to say there aren't any -- but
11 certainly it is not in the Catholic church or the
12 Jewish faith or the Christian faith, calls policy
13 letters scripture.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't know that they have the
15 same kind of -- each religion is unique in terms of
16 what it calls scripture, your Honor. But scripture
17 and policy are not necessarily the same thing.
18 Policy letters may be scripture. But scripture
19 may not be the only thing that is policy of the
20 Church of Scientology, as Mr. Weinberg will show.
21 There are policies that are issued today.
22 There are policies that are issued for the last
23 sixteen years. There are things that L. Ron Hubbard
24 said 25, 30 years ago. No one can change what he
25 wrote. But they are no longer applicable because
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1 times have changed. He's written policy -- policy
2 about how things are supposed to be organized.
3 THE COURT: Do not -- policy letters are not
4 scripture. They either are or they are not,
5 Counsel.
6 MR. LIEBERMAN: They are scripture, your Honor.
7 But scripture is not something that is necessarily
8 any longer applicable. There is scripture about how
9 a certain organization in England was supposed to be
10 the mother church. It doesn't exist anymore. It is
11 still scripture but it doesn't apply.
12 THE COURT: What I suggested to you, I don't
13 know of another religion that has their policy
14 letters called scripture. I suppose that one of the
15 benefits of that, within the church, is the First
16 Amendment.
17 So now that I know that scripture can be
18 changed, policy can be changed, I don't want to hear
19 about policy things that are changed being protected
20 by the First Amendment because they are not.
21 Continue, Counsel.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I would disagree, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Well, of course you would. And
24 that is what I said. You cannot have it both ways.
25 So we'll -- we'll get to that when we get to the
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1 First Amendment argument.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q You are not familiar with all 25 million words
4 that were part of what Mr. Hubbard wrote about Scientology.
5 Correct?
6 MR. DANDAR: Objection. No predicate for
7 25 million words.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. WEINBERG: May I have this marked as the
10 next exhibit, please.
11 THE CLERK: 250.
12 MR. WEINBERG: 250. This is 250.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q I have shown you 250, which is HCO bulletin of
15 July 30, 1973 written by L. Ron Hubbard.
16 And do you see, at the second paragraph, for
17 instance, "There are about 25 million words on tape in
18 archives which provide the consecutive path of discovery."
19 Do you see that, sir?
20 A I'm sorry, I'm not seeing where you're talking
21 about.
22 Q The top of the page.
23 A Uh-huh?
24 Q Second paragraph. Do you see where it says, "For
25 instance, there are about --"
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1 A Yes.
2 Q "-- 25 million words --"
3 A Yes.
4 Q "-- on tape in archives."
5 And then, at the -- the next-to-last paragraph,
6 you see the first two sentences, "The chronological study of
7 materials, he writes, is necessary for the complete training
8 of a truly top-grade expert in these lines. He can see how
9 the subject progressed and so was able to see which are the
10 highest levels of development."
11 Do you see that?
12 A Yes, I see that.
13 Q My question to you is in the brief period you were
14 in Scientology, you didn't have the time to familiarize
15 yourself with 25 million or however many words there were
16 that are in -- that are in these things that were written
17 and tapes that were spoken by Mr. Hubbard. Is that right?
18 A Mmm, that is correct. I did not become familiar
19 with the 25 million words on tape or in archives.
20 Q Now, let me show you --
21 MR. DANDAR: What was the last number?
22 THE COURT: 250.
23 MR. WEINBERG: 250. I'll mark this as 251.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Now, let me show you -- look at 251. This was
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1 actually issued while you were still working in the Church.
2 Correct?
3 A Yes. Yes, it was.
4 Q And this was issued, on the second page, by Church
5 of Scientology International. Do you see that?
6 A Yes. I see that.
7 Q Mr. Hubbard had been dead for a number of years at
8 this time. Correct?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q And do you see that this issue here cancels
11 various policies. Do you see that?
12 A I would have to -- if you give me a moment to read
13 the whole thing --
14 Q Yes. Why don't you do that.
15 THE COURT: What is OEC?
16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Organization Executive Courses.
17 It is one of those collection of books of the
18 writing of L. Ron Hubbard.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 A Okay, I see what it says.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q All right, and do you see that this 1991
23 Executive -- HCO admin letter of 1991 cancels a variety of
24 policies, including some that -- policy issues, including
25 some that relate to the Guardian's Office that had been
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1 issued previously by Mr. Hubbard? Do you see that?
2 A I see what it says. But I don't know if -- I
3 don't know this to be a true or authorized cancellation of
4 anything.
5 Q Well, I mean, you are -- is it your position that
6 the Church, in 1991, wasn't permitted to issue this policy?
7 Is that what you're saying?
8 A I would -- at the time, had I been shown this
9 policy letter at the time, I would have queried the issuing
10 authority to cancel a policy letter or -- or cancel the use
11 of any policy letter that was written by L. Ron Hubbard, as
12 a normal staff member would have done if he was in question
13 as to the authority of the issue.
14 THE COURT: What is, I guess, AVC Int?
15 MR. MOXON: It is a part of the Church called
16 Authorization Verification --
17 THE COURT: What is it?
18 MR. MOXON: Authorization Verification. It is
19 a part of the Church that authorizes policy to be
20 issued. That is what that is.
21 THE COURT: It says here -- look at this,
22 Counsel. It says a whole bunch of these -- most,
23 really, weren't even written by Mr. Hubbard.
24 MR. WEINBERG: What, your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Well, it says none of the following
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1 issues were written by --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Those weren't.
3 THE COURT: -- L. Ron --
4 MR. WEINBERG: But the ones that have to do
5 with the Guardian were.
6 MR. DANDAR: It doesn't say that, Judge. And I
7 think now they opened the door to try to make
8 Mr. Oliver an expert witness.
9 THE COURT: No, I don't think so. I think
10 they've asked him whether or not he's familiar with
11 this. I don't know whether he is or he isn't.
12 But it was of great interest to me because I
13 now see that policy letters -- they'll have a little
14 tougher time showing those were scriptures because
15 if you can change something, well, you can't claim
16 it is scripture.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, that is a
18 matter for RTC and David Miscavige. Not for
19 Mr. Oliver.
20 THE COURT: We'll see. It might be a matter
21 for the courts and -- it might be a matter the
22 courts will have to decide.
23 I'm telling you, you have policy letters that
24 have always been determined to be scripture. David
25 Miscavige in his own affidavit said that if it is
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1 not written, it is not the word. In David
2 Miscavige's own declaration it's going to talk about
3 the inability to change the scripture of L. Ron
4 Hubbard and the writings of L. Ron Hubbard.
5 So if it is something that can be changed, it
6 is not scripture. If it is not scripture, it is not
7 protected by the First Amendment.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor --
9 THE COURT: I mean, a policy of any corporation
10 is subject to interpretation, it is subject to
11 challenge, it is subject to all kinds of things.
12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, with due respect, I
13 do not see how the Court is going to sit here and
14 determine for itself what the policy of the Church
15 of Scientology is or how it is going to permit
16 anyone other than -- than who is in charge of the
17 Church now to determine what the policy of the
18 Church now is.
19 THE COURT: Well, then let's say this.
20 Mr. Reiss is connected with AVC how? If this policy
21 was changed by AVC, who is it in charge of it? Who
22 is it? That is the person that will have to come
23 in -- be careful where you tread, Counselor.
24 Continue on.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Let me mark as the next
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1 exhibit --
2 THE COURT: Who is in charge of AVC? I never
3 heard of him before? Who is in charge?
4 Mr. Moxon?
5 MR. MOXON: At this point, I'm not exactly
6 sure. We can have someone -- I'm not here to give
7 you, you know, specific testimony. But it is the
8 ecclesiastical aspect of the Church.
9 THE COURT: Well, surely I can't interpret it.
10 And -- and no other court can interpret it. We're
11 going to have to have somebody that can.
12 Mr. Reiss is connected with Flag.
13 MR. MOXON: Well, the Church can do it. Of
14 course --
15 THE COURT: Who is it? I'm asking you who is
16 in charge of AVC.
17 MR. MOXON: I'll not give you a name because I
18 don't know the name.
19 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Prince knows.
20 THE COURT: Who is in charge of AVC?
21 MR. MOXON: Mr. Prince has been out ten years.
22 MR. PRINCE: Excuse me. She asked me a
23 question.
24 When I was in the Religious Technology Center,
25 AVC, which actually stands for Authority
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1 Verifications and Corrections Unit, was part of the
2 Religious Technology Center. It came from the
3 Church of Scientology International, which is part
4 of its senior management structure.
5 THE COURT: And they -- they are the Church of
6 Scientology?
7 MR. PRINCE: CSI.
8 THE COURT: It says, "Authorized by," so the
9 person authorizing this change of policy is AVC
10 International.
11 That is what I would want to know, who are they
12 and by what authority do they change the policy of
13 the Church of Scientology? And I guess they can't
14 explain it to us. But --
15 MR. MOXON: The Religious Technology Center is
16 the senior-most ecclesiastical body of the Church,
17 obviously responsible for policy matters.
18 And who -- exactly what person is in AVC -- in
19 fact, it is not a single person, as far as I know.
20 But, in any event, the Church obviously would have
21 to tell you. Mr. Prince doesn't know.
22 THE COURT: Sounds like he said pretty much the
23 same as you did. Something will change, Counsel.
24 Go on ahead. Where are we?
25 MR. WEINBERG: This is 252.
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1 Before I forget, your Honor, I'm going to
2 offer -- which I haven't been doing that, I don't
3 know what I was thinking -- I'm going to offer into
4 evidence 248, which is his contract, 249 A and B,
5 which are the letters between Ms. Kobrin and him and
6 his lawyer, Mr. Leipold. That is 249 A and B.
7 THE COURT: Right.
8 MR. WEINBERG: 250, which is HCO bulletin of
9 July 30, 1973, which is, "Scientology: Current
10 state of the subject of materials."
11 And -- and the last one I just did, 251, which
12 is the HCO admin letter of March 1991, "Cancellation
13 of executive division issue," as well as
14 Scientology -- as well as 247, which is,
15 "Scientology policy directive April 21, 1996,
16 "Personal Income Tax Addition."
17 THE COURT: He couldn't authenticate it. He
18 had never seen it. And this is not an HCO -- this
19 is something else. I don't know what this is.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Scientology policy directive.
21 MR. DANDAR: He couldn't identify the last
22 three documents. So I would object.
23 THE COURT: Well, I let in a lot of policy
24 things, whether somebody could identify them or not.
25 I don't know what this is, though, however.
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1 Now that I know that this isn't a writing of L.
2 Ron Hubbard, this is something that was authorized
3 by Commanding Officer, Office of Special Affairs
4 International, this is authorized by AVC
5 International for the Church of Scientology
6 International, I'm going to let it in. We'll try to
7 figure this all out, figure out what it all is
8 after --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay --
10 THE COURT: -- after it is all over.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Let me return these to the clerk
12 then.
13 So I offer those.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, again, if I could
16 just offer a comparative perspective. I don't know
17 whether it will help you or not.
18 But -- but the words of other religions, the
19 Old Testament, God, I guess, and of Abraham or
20 whatever, and the New Testament of Jesus, those are
21 in the Bible. Those can't be changed.
22 And in at least in orthodox religion that
23 follows those, it's not going to change the word of
24 the Lord or the word of the prophets in the Bible.
25 But the church is not -- whatever church we're
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1 talking about, whether we are talking about the
2 Catholic church or the Episcopal church or Baptist
3 church, or some authority in some branch of Judaism,
4 will continue to apply that scripture and create new
5 written or oral policies, doctrines, whatever that
6 particular church chooses to call them, to apply
7 those. And those become an evolving part of the
8 religion.
9 THE COURT: I couldn't agree with you more. I
10 think you are exactly right. The scripture, the
11 word, doesn't change. The Koran hasn't changed, and
12 I'm sure the Bible doesn't change. They have
13 different versions of it where people interpret
14 those words and how they believe --
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right.
16 THE COURT: -- what they mean in a little more
17 modern what have you.
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: And no one will ever change
19 what Moses is reported to have said, or Jesus is
20 reported to have said, or what Paul is reported to
21 have said, or what Buddha was reported to have said.
22 And I don't pretend to know the details of many of
23 those religions or any of the -- even the details of
24 my own in any great depth.
25 But we do know churches evolve and many say
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1 we're absolutely orthodox and some may say we are
2 not. And they could have very different points of
3 view as to whether that is true or not.
4 And there could be critics who come along and
5 say the Catholic church isn't following Catholic
6 doctrine. And there are --
7 THE COURT: I'm sure there are.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- schism -- there is a bishop
9 in France, Bishop Lafave, who said, "The Pope is all
10 wrong, you have it all wrong." But you don't have
11 the Court coming along saying because there is a
12 difference and because the Catholic church has
13 issued certain policies which Bishop Lafave from the
14 right says are wrong, and other bishops from the
15 left say is wrong, doesn't mean those are
16 issues that can get --
17 THE COURT: As long as we agree we are
18 interpreting policy which can be changed as whoever
19 it is that is in this organization and this -- and
20 this corporation which, of course, the board of
21 directors can be replaced by the trustees at will,
22 as long as we understand that all this can be
23 changed, I don't have any problem, then we'll look
24 at the law and see what the law is about policy, as
25 long as we are not under the misconception that
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1 policy is scripture. Because in the past I thought
2 what was being told to me by you and by Mr. Moxon,
3 by others, if it was written by Mr. Hubbard, it is
4 scripture and it cannot be changed and nobody can
5 interpret it or mistake it.
6 Now I learned that if it is policy, it can be
7 changed.
8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, I think we're -- we're
9 getting confused about policy.
10 THE COURT: We can't get into this anymore
11 because now we have to continue on with the
12 testimony. But you'll have a chance to make that
13 argument to me at the proper time.
14 MR. LIEBERMAN: All right. Let me make one
15 quick distinction.
16 THE COURT: Please sit down now.
17 Go on.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q I just handed you --
20 THE COURT: Only because it is 3~o'clock and I
21 would like to finish with this witness today.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes.
23 MR. WEINBERG: So would we.
24 THE COURT: All right. Then get on with it.
25
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q I have handed you what I marked as 252, which is
3 an HCO policy letter of March 1965 which was reissued or
4 revised -- well, reissued -- rerevised in July of '83 and
5 reissued in February of '91, that was written by
6 Mr. Hubbard.
7 Do you see that, sir?
8 A Yes, I do. I have that.
9 Q This is one of the ones you would have reviewed.
10 Correct?
11 A Mmm, yes, I believe I have seen this policy
12 before. Just not -- just not in these colors.
13 THE COURT: Not in these what?
14 THE WITNESS: Colors. Policy written by L. Ron
15 Hubbard, something like this would normally be green
16 ink on white paper in its original form.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Right. Xerox --
19 A Hang on. I understand. I'm just trying to be
20 accurate.
21 Q If you turn to Page 5 of this policy, you see in
22 this policy Mr. Hubbard says -- does yours have highlighting
23 in it?
24 A Mine does. Yes, it does.
25 Q Where the highlighting is, Mr. Hubbard says: "The
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1 thing to guard against in releasing teaching in admin policy
2 letters is the change factor. Teaching an admin evolved
3 with our formative years. Thus patterns and policies, like
4 our tech, grew better. Growing better, some of it becomes
5 obsolete. When rereleasing an old policy letter always blue
6 pencil out everything gone out and contradicted by later
7 policy letters. You can still salvage a lot that applies, a
8 surprising amount. But try to cut out the contradictions
9 with our modern policy where they exist. After all, we were
10 children when we first tackled teaching in admin. As we
11 grew, we became wiser. But even our admin childhood has
12 wisdom in it, and in some places even more fire and
13 interest. Don't release contradictory ads where you can
14 help it. Modernize them with a blue pencil, whether you
15 retype them or remimeo them or not."
16 And that was your understanding as to what
17 occurred in the Church of Scientology when you were there,
18 that -- that with the gloss of time or with the change of
19 time, certain policies that related to the way the
20 administration of the Church took place changed. Correct?
21 A I'm understanding that this was written by L. Ron
22 Hubbard, and that he refers to policy that was changed when
23 he had originally written and policy that was changed by him
24 at a later time or something new that was written at a later
25 time, because this -- this particular policy letter is dated
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1 5 February, '91. The only change is on Line 4 where the
2 word "mission" is replaced, because so far the only word I
3 see in script -- but so this was written by Mr. Hubbard when
4 Mr. Hubbard was alive, referring to his earlier policies
5 that would conflict with something that he wrote at a later
6 period of time. This --
7 Q So --
8 A Excuse me. This would be 1983 when Mr. Hubbard
9 was still alive. Mr. Hubbard didn't go back and redo his
10 own policy letters himself. He had people to do that for
11 him. So if he said something in 1953 or '63 and he changed
12 it in 1983, it was still him making the change, not someone
13 else.
14 Q So for your own interpretation you don't interpret
15 this to be some teaching from Mr. Hubbard that, even after
16 he's gone, people need to keep up with the times as far as
17 the administration of the religion is concerned? You don't
18 interpret it that way?
19 A I'm reading what the materials state.
20 Q Okay. Now, you remember --
21 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q I'm going to give you a copy of what you already
25 identified yesterday, which is Plaintiff's Exhibit 160,
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1 which is the executive directive, May 11, 1991, "Security
2 situation handling checklist."
3
4 MR. WEINBERG: All right, do you have that,
5 your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Yes, I think I do.
7 MR. WEINBERG: If you don't, I have another
8 copy here.
9 THE COURT: I think I have it right here. 160?
10 MR. WEINBERG: 160.
11 THE COURT: I have it right here.
12 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, this obviously is a document that was issued
15 after L. Ron Hubbard died. Right?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And it was issued by -- can you look at the second
18 page and see who it was issued by.
19 A Yes. Senior IR Int. IR means Inspections and
20 Reports Int.
21 Q So based on your prior testimony, you would --
22 what you just said, that this would be an illegal policy,
23 the Church --
24 A No, this is an executive directive. This is not a
25 policy letter.
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1 Q But this changes something that had to do with the
2 Church of Scientology, didn't it?
3 A This is an executive directive.
4 THE COURT: Executive directive, I take it, can
5 be changed?
6 THE WITNESS: It is not an issue from L. Ron
7 Hubbard. It certainly can be changed. It says at
8 the top, highlighted, capitals, "Executive
9 Directive."
10 THE COURT: You said S & R. I thought you
11 meant S & R. What is the N in SNR?
12 THE WITNESS: No, it should say SNR. That
13 stands for "senior," ma'am. At the second page on
14 the bottom, the first line above "approved by," it
15 says, "Senior I&R Int."
16 THE COURT: You mean SNR is senior, instead of
17 what I would normally use, SR?
18 THE WITNESS: Correct.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have the reporter mark as
21 the next exhibit -- what number would that be?
22 THE CLERK: 253.
23 MR. WEINBERG: 253, your Honor, this is a
24 policy dated September 24, 1970 and explains the
25 issues and various types of policies with the
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1 Church, including the executive directives.
2 THE COURT: What number?
3 MR. WEINBERG: 252.
4 THE CLERK: 253.
5 THE COURT: A new one?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Do you see 253, sir?
10 A Yes -- well, it doesn't say 253 on mine. But I
11 believe you are speaking of the one just handed to me.
12 Q Right.
13 A Yes, I have it in my hand.
14 Q This was a policy issued by Mr. Hubbard. Correct?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q And it explains the various types of issues or
17 policies in the Church as of that time. Correct?
18 A I believe it does. Yes.
19 Q For example, it explains what an HCO policy letter
20 is; it explains Hubbard Communication Office bulletin,
21 tapes, LRH EDs, explains the type of ink; then on the second
22 page it explains other policies, other issues, board issues,
23 HCO admin letters. Then it says EDs. Do you see that?
24 A Yes, I see that.
25 Q It said "EDs. Executive directives issued by any
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1 executive counsel and named for the area it applies to, thus
2 ED WW meaning issued to worldwide. They are valid for only
3 one year. They contain various immediate orders, programs,
4 et cetera. They are blue ink on blue paper."
5 Do you see that, sir?
6 A Yes, I see where it is highlighted.
7 Q And so if Mr. Hubbard, in the policy -- the
8 official policy of the Church, said the executive directives
9 were valid for only one year. You see that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q But the Plaintiff's 160 that you put in evidence
12 the other day, which was dated May 11, 1991 executive
13 directive, pursuant to that policy would no longer be the
14 policy of the Church as of a year. Correct? That is the
15 one we just looked at.
16 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Calls for an expert
17 opinion.
18 THE COURT: I'll agree with that. If you want
19 him to give that, then -- Counsel, see the danger is
20 if you really want to look at it, read what fair
21 game says about suppressive person. If you want to
22 read the written word, say it says what it says,
23 and --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'll go on.
25 THE COURT: Then fair game has not been
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1 eliminated for suppressive persons.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I'll go on.
3 THE COURT: You just can't have it both ways.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I will go on.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Now, you see at the top of 160 it says "pilot" in
7 the left-hand column?
8 A Hold on a second, let me find that.
9 THE COURT: Where are you reading, Counsel?
10 MR. WEINBERG: On that -- this right here where
11 it says "pilot" at the top of 160?
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 A Yes, I see where it says "pilot."
14 MR. WEINBERG: That is the other document we
15 looked at.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Yes.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Do you know that -- do you know what pilot -- do
19 you understand what pilot means? Is that it is just an
20 experimental program or directive?
21 A That is one definition for the word "pilot."
22 Q And was that your understanding when you put
23 this -- when you understood this policy, that the one, 160,
24 that was just a pilot for a temporary period of time?
25 A Well, at the time I saw that I wasn't sure because
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1 it says the word "pilot" in the routing. So pilot might
2 have been a division of the organization. I wasn't sure of
3 that word at the time when I saw this.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Just real quickly, I'll
5 just mark this as the next exhibit.
6 THE COURT: Nothing you do, Counselor, is real
7 quick. I'm waiting for you to come to someplace
8 where we can come and take an afternoon break so
9 maybe I can finish up an order.
10 MR. WEINBERG: We can finish this one exhibit.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. WEINBERG: This is 254.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q I have handed you 254, which is the Modern
15 Management Technology Defined Hubbard Dictionary Of
16 Administration and Management --
17 A Uh-huh.
18 Q -- reprinted in 1986. Do you see the definition
19 for pilot projects there?
20 A I see the definition for pilot projects. Not the
21 word "pilot."
22 Q All right. "New program. The bugs have not been
23 worked out." That is what it says, correct?
24 A Well, these two words and the word on that policy
25 letter are not the same. That says "pilot." And this says
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1 "pilot project."
2 MR. WEINBERG: All right, your Honor, I'm just
3 going to offer into evidence --
4 THE COURT: What is your point? Is your point
5 of all this 160 isn't valid? If so, get somebody to
6 come in and tell me that.
7 MR. WEINBERG: No. The point was that things
8 change.
9 THE COURT: And then it is valid. It either is
10 or isn't.
11 MR. WEINBERG: It was valid for a year.
12 THE COURT: Okay. And it isn't anymore?
13 MR. WEINBERG: And it expired. It expired. It
14 doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it.
15 Things change in the Church.
16 MR. DANDAR: They need an expert to come in and
17 say that.
18 THE COURT: Exactly what I'm saying. Get
19 somebody to come in and say that.
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is why I put in the policy,
21 to explain what they were. I put in Mr. Hubbard's
22 policy to explain what an executive directive was.
23 THE COURT: As long as we can interpret the
24 policy, anybody can do it, Counselor. Anybody can
25 do it. All I have to do is read it and it means
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1 what it says. If that is the situation, we don't
2 even need an expert for any of this.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I don't believe that courts --
4 you and I and -- and other folks should be
5 interpreting the policy of the Church of
6 Scientology. I think that --
7 THE COURT: Then we won't. It will just say
8 exactly what it is in the printed word.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Exactly.
10 THE COURT: I can do that.
11 MR. WEINBERG: So what I was offering, before
12 we take our break, was the ones I just showed, which
13 was -- which was 254, which was the dictionary, and
14 253, which was the policy letter of September 24,
15 1970 which was the issues, types of.
16 THE COURT: Okay. Any objection?
17 MR. DANDAR: No.
18 THE COURT: They will be received.
19 MR. WEINBERG: This would be a good time to
20 break if you want to.
21 THE COURT: Okay. We'll go ahead and be in
22 recess until -- I don't know when -- 3:30. I'll not
23 get that order done until tomorrow.
24 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 3:15 to 3:35 p.m.)
25 ______________________________________
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1 THE COURT: You may continue.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Now, you remember that Mr. Lirot asked you a
5 number of questions and repeated in some questions the
6 language from the policy letter which was 165 that you
7 identified and was put into evidence.
8 That is the one for penalties for lower
9 conditions. Do you remember that one?
10 A Mmm, yes, I believe so. I --
11 THE COURT: You want to show it to him?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, your Honor.
13 THE COURT: I have got it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, you do? Okay.
15 THE COURT: All of the ones that have just been
16 used with this witness I still have here.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q 165. That was the one where the policy said,
20 under "Enemy: SP order. Fair game. May be deprived of
21 property or injured by any means by any Scientologist
22 without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be
23 tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."
24 Do you remember that now?
25 A Yes, I do.
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1 Q Now, you didn't identify the following policy that
2 I will have the reporter mark as the next exhibit.
3 THE COURT: Did you say you didn't?
4 MR. WEINBERG: You did not. I made the same
5 mistake that Mr. Oliver did.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. WEINBERG: And that is, your Honor, 255.
8 I was also trained, when I grew up, not to use
9 those in papers for school. You are not supposed to
10 do that.
11 THE COURT: That is true.
12 MR. WEINBERG: But I violated that policy from
13 time to time.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Now, I have shown you Exhibit 255, Defense Exhibit
16 255. Now, you see, that is a -- that is an HCO policy
17 letter issued by Mr. Hubbard on October 6, 1970.
18 Do you see that?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q And do you see that -- that -- actually, the wrong
21 thing is highlighted, but it is actually the second policy
22 there, HCO policy letter October 18, 1967, issues penalties
23 for lower conditions. Do you see that?
24 A Yes, I see, if it is the one below the one
25 highlighted.
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1 Q Yes.
2 A Right.
3 Q And do you see that this policy on October 6, 1970
4 cancelled that policy, that is, cancelled Plaintiff's 165?
5 Do you see that, sir?
6 A That is what it says.
7 Q Is there any particular reason why you didn't
8 bring that to the attention of the Court when you put in
9 this "tricked, lied and deceived -- tricked, lied" and
10 whatever it says in that policy that was cancelled?
11 A I didn't have this policy letter.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I offer Defendant's 255 into
13 evidence, your Honor.
14 THE COURT: It will be received.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'm going to refer
16 to Plaintiff's 148.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach the witness.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q I hand you another copy of it. This was that
21 document that was the noisy investigation drill, do you see
22 that, or invest drill?
23 A Yes. I see it.
24 Q Now, this document, Plaintiff's 148, is not a
25 written policy of -- that was ever issued by L. Ron Hubbard
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1 or the Church of Scientology, correct?
2 A No, it's not. This is a drill.
3 Q This is something that somebody just typed up on a
4 computer or whatever it is, a typewriter?
5 A Actually, this particular noisy invest drill
6 refers back to the hat pack that says "Noisy invest drill."
7 If you want to pull the hat pack out, we can look at that.
8 MR. DANDAR: Could we have a copy?
9 THE COURT: It is your Plaintiff's 148.
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry, it is your
12 exhibit.
13 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q In any event, Number 7 says: "Clear the project
16 with counsel," right? Is that what it says?
17 A Under Step 7 it says, "Clear the project with
18 counsel."
19 Q Okay. Now, in your testimony -- you suggested in
20 your testimony on direct that OSA was involved in some
21 illegal activity when you were there, specifically, you
22 mentioned this credit bureau thing that made you
23 uncomfortable. Right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. Now, are you aware of a number of written
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1 policies that say that all Scientologists, staff and public,
2 are supposed to obey the law?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is there any policy in existence now that says
5 that -- that you're aware of -- that says to break the law,
6 commit crimes?
7 A In existence now?
8 Q Yes.
9 A I don't know how I would have knowledge of what is
10 in existence now.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have the reporter mark as
12 the next exhibit --
13 THE CLERK: 256.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- 256, your Honor, Defendant's
15 Exhibit 256.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Now, you recognize Office of Special Affairs
18 Network Order Number 60, October 15, 1988. Right?
19 A I believe I have seen this before.
20 Q This was on your check sheet, wasn't it?
21 A I believe I said I have seen this before.
22 Q Was this on your check sheet, one of the ones --
23 A I would have to refer back to my check sheet to be
24 certain.
25 THE COURT: Do you remember I told you if the
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1 answer is "I don't know," just say "I don't know."
2 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
3 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q This was the Exhibit 143 Plaintiff's was the --
7 what you said was the check sheet, the full hat check sheet.
8 Is that right?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q If you look at Page 30, you'll see that the OSA
11 Network Order 60 is one of the things you are supposed to
12 familiarize yourself with. Correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Now, if you'll look at -- at Exhibit 256, which
15 is -- which is the order, 60 -- you see that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q -- you see where it says, "Invests can get all of
18 the information they want but must take no action without
19 clearing it with Church attorneys. Invest's purpose is to
20 serve legal and that is the sole function. Legal takes no
21 action without clearing it first with Church lawyers."
22 Do you see that?
23 A It says "Church attorneys." Yes.
24 Q "Church attorneys." All right.
25 And then at the bottom, the next-to-the-last
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1 paragraph, it says, "PR campaigns also get cleared with
2 legal. Legal can then make sure no weird claims are made so
3 they don't get us into trouble."
4 Then it says, "We should frown upon anything being
5 issued which would affect legal lines without close
6 consultation with legal."
7 Do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 THE COURT: I take it there are people that
10 serve in legal that aren't attorneys that legal
11 checks with attorneys. So there are attorneys,
12 there are staff people who serve in legal, then
13 there are investigators. Is that how it works?
14 THE WITNESS: Correct. People in legal are
15 part of OSA, as well.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q And then there are outside attorneys the Church
18 hires to give them advice that the OSA people in legal deal
19 with. Correct?
20 A The only attorneys I'm familiar with when I was in
21 Scientology were -- Mmm -- Mr. Bowles, Mr. Moxon, and Lori
22 Bartleson (phonetic).
23 THE COURT: So there are some internal Church
24 attorneys?
25 THE WITNESS: Those were all internal. I
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1 didn't know of any --
2 THE COURT: But, obviously, there are external?
3 THE WITNESS: I'm sure.
4 THE COURT: We know of lawyers that are not on
5 the staff.
6 THE WITNESS: Correct. Yes, your Honor.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I think I qualify as one.
8 THE COURT: I think you do.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, you are familiar with Defense Exhibit 184
11 which -- "The Way To Happiness"? You are familiar with
12 that?
13 A Yes. It may not look like the one in your hand,
14 but yes.
15 Q Right. And that was a non-religious moral code
16 written by Mr. Hubbard?
17 A I knew that to be a PR booklet.
18 Q Okay. Do you remember that --
19 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Do you remember that amongst the things that this
23 book says is "Don't do anything illegal" on Page 27? Do you
24 remember that?
25 A Mmm, the book I was familiar with was a little
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1 different than this. But, yes.
2 MR. WEINBERG: If I can get something marked,
3 your Honor.
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I only have two copies here,
6 though.
7 Oh, it is already in. This is Plaintiff's 158.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q This is one of the documents that you identified,
10 correct, sir?
11 A I believe it is.
12 Q And this is the -- this is the HCO policy letter
13 February 17, 1966 written by Mr. Hubbard. Correct?
14 A That is correct. That is what it states.
15 Q If you turn to Page 3 of that document --
16 A Uh-huh?
17 Q -- is yours highlighted?
18 A Yes, it is. About halfway down the page.
19 Q All right. Do you see, right above where it says,
20 "The section should note that --" do you see where I'm
21 referring to now?
22 A Mmm, yes. Above the line?
23 Q Yes.
24 A Yes. It is one sentence.
25 Q Read that sentence out loud.
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1 A It says "No act which will make an investigator
2 liable to criminal prosecution may be ordered."
3 Q Okay. Could I take that back. Thank you.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Did you need a copy of that,
5 your Honor?
6 THE COURT: No. I have got it. Mine is not
7 underlined. Is this something you gave him?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It is just another -- I
9 just read that sentence out of it.
10 THE COURT: I don't need two copies. That is
11 for sure.
12 MR. WEINBERG: I just read that sentence out of
13 it.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have marked as the next
16 exhibit, please.
17 THE CLERK: 257.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'll offer into
19 evidence 255, which is the ethics penalties that
20 cancelled the -- the policy of October 18, 1967. I
21 offer that into evidence.
22 And 256 --
23 THE COURT: You can just offer them by number.
24 You can't really say what they did. There may be
25 some objection to that. But you can offer 255 and
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1 256.
2 MR. WEINBERG: 255 and 256.
3 THE COURT: All right. They will be received.
4 MR. WEINBERG: This is 257.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q I have handed you Defense 257. This was an Office
7 of Special Affairs Office Network Order 59 which is the
8 order right before 60 which we just looked at issued by
9 Mr. Hubbard.
10 Do you see that?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q And this -- at the beginning of this it says,
13 "Handling blackmail through courts written by LRH concerning
14 handling of phony and frivolous damage suits in the U.S. in
15 which plaintiffs, through false allegations, hope to win
16 damage awards against the Church."
17 Then it says, "You will find that some enemies are
18 running a racket in utilizing the judicial system in a sort
19 of blackmail scheme with false --"
20 THE COURT: I'm not going to let you read
21 everything underlined here. If you have a question,
22 ask it. This page is almost all underlined.
23 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q You are familiar with this Office of Special
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1 Affairs network order, weren't you?
2 A Yes, I was. I believe I was, yes.
3 Q And you understood that -- that the Church
4 believed that it was the victim of blackmail through -- in
5 essence, legal blackmail, through what it believed were
6 phony suits being initiated against it in courts based on
7 false affidavits. Correct?
8 A I'm going to have to ask you to repeat the
9 question.
10 MR. WEINBERG: She can read it back to you.
11 (Last question read back by the reporter.)
12 A There may have been lawsuits like that at the
13 time. I believe the one case, in particular, was based on
14 that claim that was made to me regarding a subject that I
15 was to investigate.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Well, let me show you what you previously
18 identified --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I offer that into evidence, your
20 Honor.
21 MR. LIROT: What number is that?
22 THE COURT: 257.
23 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach, I'll just
24 give him a copy of this.
25
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q This is Plaintiff's Exhibit 150E as in Edward. It
3 was a composite exhibit.
4 THE COURT: 157, did you say?
5 MR. WEINBERG: It was 150E as in Edward, I
6 believe. And it's an OSA Network Order 15 dated
7 2/18/88 entitled "Black Propaganda."
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q That is one of the policies that you identified
10 and put into evidence. Was that right, Mr. Oliver?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q Now, this document -- this -- this policy here
13 that was written, this OSA network order, has to do with
14 propaganda against the Church. Correct?
15 A In this particular case, yes.
16 Q So that when it says at the beginning, "Black
17 propaganda is a covert communication of false data intended
18 to injure, impede or destroy the activity, of life of
19 another person, group or nation, usually issued from a false
20 or removed source from the actual instigator," this
21 policy -- or this document that you introduced goes on to
22 explain how the Church has been the target of black
23 propaganda like that. Correct?
24 A Correct. But --
25 THE COURT: I don't know what you're talking
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1 about, 150E. I don't have any 150E. I have 150 and
2 I have 151 and 152.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Does 150 have a lot of documents
4 in it?
5 THE COURT: Not really. It's a document. You
6 are talking about black propaganda. That is my 151.
7 MR. WEINBERG: This is what I'm talking about.
8 He did a composite exhibit with a whole bunch of
9 these things in it. My notes indicate that this was
10 one of them.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Mine just doesn't seem to
12 be --
13 MR. WEINBERG: You didn't -- it wasn't
14 paginated. But I think the reporter -- I mean the
15 clerk had them individually.
16 THE COURT: Okay. This is what the clerk gave
17 me. This -- this is the clerk's that she had
18 prepared for me, so -- it is all right, I know what
19 you're talking about now. 150 entitled "Office of
20 Special Affairs Network Order Number 15, Black
21 Propaganda."
22 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q If you go to Page 2 of that, about halfway down
25 the page -- and I think in your copy I have yellowed it --
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1 it says -- Mr. Hubbard says, "We won't be running a black
2 campaign, as we deal in truth."
3 Do you see that?
4 A I see that.
5 MR. WEINBERG: My -- your Honor, my notes
6 indicate that Plaintiff's 151 is an HCO policy
7 letter dated November 21, 1972, "How to handle black
8 propaganda."
9 THE COURT: Right.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. If I can just
11 approach him and give him a copy so he can work off
12 of it.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, this is --
15 THE COURT: When did Mr. Hubbard die?
16 MR. WEINBERG: '86.
17 MR. LIEBERMAN: January 24, 1986, I think.
18 THE COURT: When this says L. Ron Hubbard, of
19 course that is incorrect.
20 MR. WEINBERG: No. This was a policy issued in
21 1972.
22 THE COURT: I'm looking at something we were
23 just looking at before I put it up, Defendant's
24 Number 257 dated October 14 of '88.
25 MR. WEINBERG: It was a policy issued after he
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1 died but something that he had done before he died,
2 I believe is the way that works.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q On this document in front of you, "How to handle
6 black propaganda," if you go to Page 4 under the section
7 that is entitled "The Tech," do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And it says, "In the face of a black propaganda
10 campaign, such releases are twisted, refused and that is the
11 end of it. There is far more to the art than this."
12 Then he says, "There are some rules that apply."
13 And Rule Number 6, you see that Mr. Hubbard says,
14 "Use the knowledge of source to impede or destroy the source
15 of black propaganda by non-criminal means." Do you see
16 that?
17 A I see that.
18 Q Then on Page 5 under Subsection 2 it says,
19 "Disprove false data. The technique of proving utterance as
20 false is called 'dead agenting.' It's in the first book of
21 Chinese espionage."
22 Then it goes on to say, "So the PR slang for it is
23 dead agenting."
24 Do you see that?
25 A I see that.
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1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm objecting. Going
2 through documents saying "You see that" doesn't do
3 anything.
4 THE COURT: That is exactly true. Your
5 objection is sustained. If there is a question, ask
6 the question. But just to read off these documents
7 is really a waste -- a massive waste of time.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, the suggestion was
9 is that somehow the documents were -- were -- you
10 know, I think the suggestion was that somehow these
11 documents indicated that there were crimes that were
12 supposed to be committed by the Church. And it is
13 just the opposite.
14 THE COURT: I don't know what the document
15 says. I'm paying attention to a great extent to
16 what the witnesses said.
17 MR. WEINBERG: He put this in.
18 THE COURT: I understand. But a lot of these
19 documents may or may not have a lot of bearing on
20 this case at all. I'm listening to what the witness
21 says and what his testimony is.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 THE COURT: I just let this stuff in. As I
24 said, I have not read them, don't know if they have
25 any bearing, any relevance. They just seem to be
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1 Church policy so I let them in.
2 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
3 THE COURT: And they may not have any bearing
4 to do with this.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q 156. You put in 156 which is -- which is an HCO
7 policy letter of February 16, 1969.
8 And with regard to the subject of whether or not
9 you're supposed to be committing crimes, if you look at
10 Number 9, "Failing to identify the enemy early and hit him
11 hard," it says, "our best defense is that we are sincere,
12 that we are effective and that we commit no crimes."
13 Now, you are familiar with that policy that "We
14 commit no crimes" when you were in OSA for that short period
15 of time?
16 A That is what it says. But that is not necessarily
17 what I saw.
18 Q Go to the last page. The last big paragraph that
19 says, "If we" -- where he says, "If we, doing our jobs,
20 doing no wrong, breaking no laws," do you see that?
21 A Yes, I see that.
22 Q Were you familiar with that policy when you were
23 in OSA?
24 A I'm familiar with this policy letter.
25 THE COURT: Obviously, the man said he thought
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1 there was one thing, in all of the time he worked at
2 the Church, that he felt was a little suspicious.
3 Frankly, I find it a little suspicious, too.
4 Frankly, you can read off a hundred documents.
5 What I wanted to know, how was it OSA got their
6 hands on credit records and somebody's phone bills.
7 Now, it should be very easy for somebody who didn't
8 get it in some improper fashion to come in and tell
9 us about it. That is the only thing he has
10 testified to that he thought perhaps was a little
11 illegal.
12 Now we're going through jillions and jillions
13 of documents to show one thing or the other thing.
14 MR. WEINBERG: We're about --
15 THE COURT: It is sort of irrelevant, if you
16 ask me.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Just so it is clear, if it were
18 true, sometimes if somebody comes in and says
19 something that is not true, what does one do?
20 Particularly --
21 THE COURT: I don't know.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Specifically if it happened 10
23 or 11 years ago?
24 THE COURT: Have somebody take the stand and
25 say, "We never had this lady's credit report so he
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1 must be lying." You can't undo what he said by
2 putting in 150 policy reports.
3 MR. WEINBERG: No. But we can challenge his
4 credibility as a truthful witness.
5 THE COURT: All you did is put them in,
6 Counsel.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Which I think we have done by
8 showing his bias and all that other stuff.
9 THE COURT: You have shown his bias. All he
10 did is put in reports which came from the Church.
11 These are not his. He didn't write them. He didn't
12 have anything to do with them. He put them in for
13 some relevance that apparently Mr. Lirot is going to
14 tell us when he writes his closing argument.
15 And now you're putting in some other documents,
16 but it really has nothing to do with his testimony,
17 which he didn't see anything illegal.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, Mr. Lirot suggested the
19 policy of the Church, pattern and practice, was to
20 commit crimes.
21 And we put in the policy of the Church which --
22 you know, which you can see what it says. We're not
23 here to debate what it means.
24 THE COURT: Why don't you just put in whatever
25 you want to put in in the way of policy letters,
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1 both sides, then argue. I don't know why I have to
2 listen to this man who probably never read them,
3 probably doesn't know what they mean or anything of
4 the sort.
5 I mean, you have got policy letters -- this is
6 a huge waste of time, both sides.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. I'm about done on this
8 subject, anyway.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q You talked somewhat -- at some length about
11 suppressive persons and what to do about suppressive
12 persons. You remember your testimony about that?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that you were declared when you -- when you
15 left the Church. You put in the declaration about you?
16 A Yes. I was declared.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Let me have marked two policies.
18 This is 258, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. WEINBERG: And this is 259.
21 THE COURT: Okay. I think part of the
22 right-hand side of this document is gone.
23 MR. WEINBERG: What?
24 THE COURT: On the front page --
25 MR. WEINBERG: I must have given you a bad copy
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1 because mine doesn't have it.
2 THE COURT: You want to trade with me, maybe?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Which one?
4 THE COURT: This says -- I presume that is
5 "another," and this is "responsible" --
6 MR. WEINBERG: I guess mine does, too. We need
7 to substitute good copies. That is a bad copy.
8 THE COURT: I don't know what this is.
9 MR. WEINBERG: We need to substitute.
10 THE COURT: I think it is just the front page,
11 because I look at Page 2 -- well, 3 is not much
12 better.
13 MR. WEINBERG: A bad Xerox.
14 THE COURT: Page 1 and 3 look like they need to
15 be redone. But we can probably use our imagination.
16 MR. WEINBERG: We will replace it.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q And you are familiar with 258 which is PTS
20 disconnection of September 28, 1983 policy letter -- policy
21 bulletin? Sorry.
22 A I believe I have seen this before.
23 Q The whole idea is to -- how to deal with a PTS is
24 to handle or disconnect?
25 A Yes. That is another policy, as well. It is not
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1 in this policy letter.
2 Q 259 is the policy, "Suppressive acts, suppression
3 of Scientology and Scientologists," which is a policy first
4 dating back to 1965. Correct?
5 A I believe this was -- yes, I believe this was
6 already entered into evidence without the January 8, 1991
7 revision on it, though.
8 Q And this is the policy -- if you go to Page 883
9 and 884, that sets forth A to E, big A like -- A to E, which
10 are the steps that one would have to go through in order to
11 get back into the -- into the Church after being declared a
12 suppressive person. Right?
13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, where are you reading?
14 What document?
15 MR. WEINBERG: It is 259.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Which is "Suppressive acts,
18 suppression of Scientology and Scientologists," Page
19 884. If you go to the bottom, you'll see the pages.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: And there are -- you see A, B --
22 B 1, B 2, C, D and E.
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Those are the steps, the things a Scientologist
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1 who had been designated as a suppressive person, would have
2 to do in order to be able to get back on the lines, correct?
3 A That is what it states here.
4 Q All right. And you were given that opportunity
5 when you were given your declaration to -- to do Steps A
6 through E in order to get back on lines, right?
7 A I'm not quite sure. I comm eve'd.
8 MR. DANDAR: Would you put that in English?
9 THE WITNESS: That means a Committee of
10 Evidence.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I just need to get that
12 declaration that he put in.
13 THE COURT: You mean the piece of evidence
14 introduced by the plaintiff in this case through
15 this witness?
16 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted to show it to him.
17 The suppressive person declarative, which is
18 Plaintiff's 171, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. WEINBERG: If I can approach him?
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q You see at the bottom of that where you were
24 declared a suppressive person, November 16, 1992, the last
25 sentence of Plaintiff's 171 says -- well, the last two
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1 sentences: "It is hoped that Frank does come to his senses
2 and seeks the mercy that the Church offers. If so, he
3 should apply Steps A to E laid out in HCO policy letter 23
4 December, '65, RB, suppressive acts, suppression of
5 Scientology and Scientologists."
6 Do you see that?
7 A I see that.
8 Q That was the A to E in Exhibit -- in the exhibit
9 we just looked at. Correct?
10 THE COURT: Is that the one that was not
11 revised? Or is that the revised? 165 RB?
12 MR. WEINBERG: That is the policy.
13 THE COURT: Well, it isn't what you put in as
14 259, because 259 is revised January of 1991.
15 MR. WEINBERG: And that is it. That is what
16 they're talking about.
17 THE COURT: I thought he said there was one
18 that was unrevised, then there was one revised.
19 That is what I thought I heard the witness say.
20 MR. WEINBERG: It is just the latest reissue.
21 The one that we just -- well, that we're offering,
22 259. I'll offer 258 and 259.
23 THE COURT: What does his letter say?
24 MR. WEINBERG: It says he should "Apply Steps A
25 to E laid out in HCO policy letter 23 December, '65,
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1 RB, suppressive acts, suppression of Scientology and
2 Scientologists."
3 THE COURT: If there is a difference in one
4 that says revised January '91 and one that does not,
5 I will assume it means the one unrevised. I don't
6 know that there is a difference. He said there were
7 two different ones.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
9 THE COURT: I don't know if there are or not.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think A to E has changed
11 or would change.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Then if they didn't, it
13 won't make any difference.
14 MR. WEINBERG: When the RB is on the end, it
15 means revised version, I'm told.
16 THE COURT: Okay. RB?
17 MR. WEINBERG: RB as in boy. Now, why that
18 means revised version, I don't know, but it means
19 the revised version.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. WEINBERG: When --
22 MR. MOXON: It means revised essentially that
23 first revision, R.
24 THE COURT: R is the first. RA would be
25 second. RB would be third?
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1 MR. MOXON: That is right.
2 MR. WEINBERG: In any event, I offer 258 and
3 259, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: It will be received.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q You never did Steps A to E. Correct?
7 THE COURT: He doesn't want to be back,
8 Counselor. He made it as clear as he can make it.
9 He's not going to do Steps A to E. Don't waste the
10 time of the Court.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q Now, did you have any contact with Jesse Prince
13 with regard to these proceedings concerning his dealings
14 with Mr. Minton?
15 A Way back in the beginning before, I think, all
16 these -- before all this started. I'm not quite sure when
17 it started.
18 Q What -- well, what was the contact --
19 THE COURT: You'll have to be clear. I don't
20 know what you're talking about, did he have any
21 contact --
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Did you have any communications, phone calls, with
24 Jesse Prince concerning Mr. Minton --
25 THE COURT: And his -- and his change of
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1 testimony? Or just Mr. Minton, in general?
2 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't finished with the
3 question.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Did you have any phone calls or communications
7 with Mr. Prince concerning Mr. Minton and his potential
8 change in testimony in either -- in March or April of this
9 year?
10 A March or April of this year? Mmm, I know it was
11 earlier this year before the proceedings started, I
12 contacted Jesse -- no, Jesse called me, I believe it was,
13 because of what had happened with Mr. Minton and his
14 decision to reverse his position on how he felt about
15 Scientology and everything that was going on.
16 And I felt it was important for Jesse to get a
17 hold of Ken Dandar. So I had -- in my conversation with
18 Jesse, I told him to call Ken, please.
19 Q So Mr. Prince, just out of the blue, called you?
20 A Yeah. We're friends. We speak on the phone.
21 Q He called you in Miami?
22 A Mmm, I believe he did.
23 Q And what did he tell you in that conversation?
24 A There was a problem with Bob and Stacy, that
25 somehow or another Scientology had gotten them to -- you
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1 know, to completely change their, you know, position on
2 Scientology. And that it was a big -- you know, it was a
3 big problem for him and he was having trouble dealing
4 with -- you know, with that.
5 And I said, you know, "I would like you to talk to
6 Ken because I feel that it's important you talk to Ken."
7 Q And so you told him to call Ken?
8 A Yes. That is basically it.
9 Q And he then, on his own, went and called Ken?
10 A I'm sure he did. I don't know what he did.
11 Q I mean, you didn't call Ken and say," Call
12 Prince," anything like that?
13 A No.
14 Q I didn't hear your answer.
15 A No.
16 Q He didn't tell you he was scared to call Ken from
17 his phone, did he, Mr. Prince?
18 A Mmm, we had this -- this conversation had -- we
19 had had this conversation in the past about our fear of just
20 communicating to each other on regular phones because of the
21 potential of being intercepted.
22 Q So he was using some other phone to call you,
23 obviously?
24 A I honestly don't know where he was calling me
25 from.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions, your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right. Redirect.
4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q Just based on what you just testified to, did you
7 call Mr. Dandar to have him call Mr. Prince?
8 A Mmm --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. Asked
10 and answered. He just said no. I asked him that
11 question.
12 THE COURT: This is redirect. He can --
13 A I don't remember doing it but I may have. I don't
14 remember doing it but I may have.
15 BY MR. LIROT:
16 Q And --
17 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach the witness?
18 THE COURT: You may.
19 BY MR. LIROT:
20 Q I want to show you an excerpt of the book "What is
21 Scientology." And I would like to draw your attention to I
22 guess it is Page 623, the "Creeds and Codes of Scientology."
23 A Uh-huh? I see it. It is on Page 623, "Creeds and
24 Codes of Scientology."
25 Q Can you read off the number in the highlighted
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1 portions there?
2 A Number 2 says, "Never withdraw allegiance once
3 granted."
4 Number 3 says: "Never desert a group to which you
5 owe your support."
6 Number 5 says: "Never need praise, approval or
7 sympathy."
8 Number 12 says: "Never fear to hurt another in a
9 just cause."
10 Number 13 says: "Don't desire to be liked or
11 admired."
12 Q Notwithstanding all of the policy letters that
13 apparently go one way or the other, did you find that the
14 "never fear to hurt one --" what was Number 12?
15 A "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause."
16 Q Did you find that to be consistent with the
17 underlying theme of OSA?
18 A Yes, I would.
19 Q So any policy letters to the contrary, were those
20 pressed upon you or dictated as a line you couldn't cross?
21 A I heard that slogan many times in my career in
22 Scientology. And -- Mmm -- I took it to mean to justify it
23 for the things being done to try to protect a Church member.
24 So anything that needed to be done to keep any kind of
25 interpolation off the lines of the Church was -- you know,
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1 we were the front lines. We had to investigate, we had to
2 stop the people that were attacking Scientology, or we
3 perceived as enemies as Scientology, and to basically keep
4 the technology to Scientology, not allowing anyone to
5 believe in Scientology outside of the Church. You couldn't
6 do that. That is one thing I was never comfortable with,
7 either. You couldn't just go off and audit somebody on your
8 own and say you are an auditor. You would be considered a
9 squirrel.
10 Q What was your understanding of the changes in
11 policy after L. Ron Hubbard had died?
12 A Mmm, there was some debate within some individuals
13 in the organization that surfaced that I became aware of
14 because it was perceived some changes were being made that
15 were not in accordance with the original writings.
16 And the diehard, you know, Scientologists were
17 saying, "Well, this isn't --" they referred affectionately
18 to L. Ron Hubbard as "The old man." They said, "This isn't
19 what the old man wrote."
20 There were individuals having issues with the new
21 policies or new changes being made. And they continue to be
22 made even to this day, I understand.
23 Q Are you aware of any portion of the teachings of
24 L. Ron Hubbard that said if anyone was to change policies,
25 that that would be a high crime?
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1 A Yes. KSW, Keeping Scientology Working, that first
2 policy letter that appears in every pack, that it is a high
3 crime and that, you know, there is actually ten steps listed
4 there to keep the technology pure and to hammer out of
5 existence any altered application of the technology, any --
6 you know, you couldn't change anything is what it said.
7 THE COURT: I know where I read it now. It was
8 in Mr. Miscavige's affidavit, declaration, whatever
9 you call it, when he was talking about the Broekers.
10 THE WITNESS: Pat and Anne Broeker.
11 THE COURT: Broeker, that he had to step in
12 because they were trying to change L. Ron Hubbard's
13 written policies, and that is why he stepped in
14 and -- and, in essence, wrote -- because he had to
15 do something because this is what they were doing.
16 And he took great offense at it.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
18 THE COURT: I knew I read it recently. That is
19 where I read it.
20 MR. WEINBERG: That was exactly right.
21 BY MR. LIROT:
22 Q Do you know policies to have been attempted to
23 have been changed since you were in Scientology?
24 A Since I was in, there has been -- I have spoken to
25 several members and ex-members that have left for reasons
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1 because policy was changed and they found no satisfaction
2 with internal justice or any explanations describing why the
3 policy was changed or any authorization for that change. So
4 people have left because of that.
5 MR. LIROT: One second, Judge.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. LIROT: No further questions, your Honor.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I have no further questions.
9 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for coming. You
10 may step down and you may be excused.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
12 (WHEREUPON, the witness is excused.)
13 THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
14 You want to quit for the day?
15 MR. LIROT: May we? The last witness we have
16 to call is to wrap up Mr. Dandar.
17 THE COURT: I would like to get that order
18 finished so you-all can have it. So why don't we go
19 ahead and that will give me a little time to work on
20 that tonight, rather than at 7 or 8~o'clock.
21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I do have some declarations
22 marked as exhibits. Since we are going to break
23 early, could I just, on the record, tell you what
24 they are and I'll introduce them?
25 One is the --
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1 THE COURT: Sure.
2 MR. DANDAR: What is our next exhibit number?
3 Do you have that? Luke, did you make any more
4 exhibits?
5 MR. LIROT: The last exhibit I entered, I
6 think, was 181.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 182 then would be the
8 Joseph Yanny declaration.
9 THE COURT: Where are these? Are these -- are
10 these the ones in that book you gave me?
11 MR. DANDAR: No. These are extra ones.
12 THE COURT: Well, who is he?
13 MR. DANDAR: He's the former attorney for RTC.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Sandy? Get up there.
16 MR. DANDAR: Let me make copies. Apparently I
17 don't have enough copies of that one.
18 MR. WEINBERG: What are these?
19 MR. DANDAR: The one Plaintiff's Exhibit 183 is
20 the declaration of Stacy Brooks of December 14,
21 1994.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Is this something new you are
23 offering?
24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I have copies of that one.
25 THE COURT: You can't just wait until the end
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1 of the day. Now you are putting in a whole bunch of
2 stuff.
3 MR. WEINBERG: You need to give us copies so we
4 can look at it.
5 THE COURT: He can give it to you at the time
6 he's introducing them. But is this something from
7 Stacy Brooks you are substituting for something that
8 was not signed?
9 MR. DANDAR: No. This is new. This is not a
10 substitute. This is where she talks about
11 Mr. Rinder coming over to talk to her and her
12 husband.
13 THE COURT: That was introduced already --
14 MR. DANDAR: This is one --
15 THE COURT: -- I believe.
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm going -- I couldn't check that
17 out. I couldn't figure that out myself. Mmm, if it
18 is --
19 THE COURT: I remember early on there being
20 some testimony about -- by Mr. Minton, some hearsay
21 testimony, that Ms. Brooks -- after she was on the
22 stand, of course, and said to him that Mr. Rinder's
23 affidavit was more accurate than hers. So I presume
24 they were both in. Unless there is another --
25 MR. DANDAR: I believe this is another one.
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1 THE COURT: Well, then I don't know --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, my suggestion is
3 that we at least be given copies tonight. We'll
4 read them. Because --
5 THE COURT: You know, you guys don't share in
6 advance as to what you are -- I just don't want to
7 listen to it now.
8 Well, go on ahead and do it now.
9 MR. DANDAR: All right.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then --
11 MR. DANDAR: I'll give you copies.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Obviously we are going to object
13 to them, dated affidavits, certainly until we have a
14 chance to read them. I don't know --
15 THE COURT: Objection is sustained. You just
16 can't come up and start introducing stuff. I don't
17 know what it is, what it pertains to or anything of
18 the sort.
19 MR. DANDAR: It is like the David Miscavige
20 affidavit; it was just marked and filed into
21 evidence without anyone authenticating it or even
22 questioning him about it.
23 These are signed-under-oath declarations.
24 THE COURT: Well, I mean, what are they for?
25 Are they just -- something just to come in so we can
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1 put them out over the Internet? Or something that
2 has some bearing on this case?
3 MR. DANDAR: No, Judge.
4 THE COURT: At least on the David Miscavige
5 affidavit somebody was on the stand and looked at it
6 and said something.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Prince -- remember, he
8 referred to it in the affidavit Mr. Dandar put in of
9 Mr. Prince.
10 THE COURT: I don't recall how it came in. As
11 I recall, somebody was there and identified it or
12 said something about it when it came in.
13 MR. WEINBERG: It was Mr. Prince.
14 THE COURT: So I think he's right, you'll have
15 to give him copies.
16 MR. DANDAR: I am. I am.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. DANDAR: I have the Brooks declaration of
19 December of '94. I have a Brooks declaration of
20 October of '98. And I believe those two have not
21 been in yet.
22 I also have, like I mentioned, the Joseph Yanny
23 declaration.
24 And I have the Robert Cipriano declaration,
25 which I'm going to -- apparently, I'm short one
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1 copy. I have three copies. I need four. So I'll
2 make another copy of that. If you want, I'll just
3 do that tomorrow morning.
4 THE COURT: Fine. Make sure you make me a
5 copy.
6 MR. DANDAR: I will.
7 THE COURT: You also had some filings. Were
8 those filings to be in support of your motion
9 against their motion for summary judgment? Is that
10 what that book was for?
11 MR. DANDAR: That was for both the summary
12 judgment and determining sanctions.
13 THE COURT: So that was just a filing, though,
14 as I recall?
15 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's marked as a notice of
16 filing --
17 THE COURT: Right.
18 MR. DANDAR: -- but we used Exhibit J -- or we
19 attempted to at the questioning of the witness --
20 THE COURT: Right.
21 MR. DANDAR: -- which was a police
22 investigation statement.
23 THE COURT: Right. And that wasn't allowed.
24 However, you know --
25 MR. DANDAR: But I'm using the statements of
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1 that filing, which are the statements of staff and
2 depositions of staff --
3 THE COURT: In this hearing and in the motion
4 for summary judgment?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes. So you have a copy.
6 And I filed it with the clerk.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know what he's talking
9 about.
10 THE COURT: I take it you're going to have
11 your -- your motion or whatever you want to call it,
12 response in opposition of motion for summary
13 judgment by the time we're done with this hearing?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Well, you know, that may be
16 tomorrow.
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I realize that.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I didn't understand
20 what Mr. Dandar just said a minute ago about staff
21 depos. What were you saying?
22 THE COURT: He filed some depositions -- some
23 sworn statements, some stuff that he had in a book.
24 He came in here one day and he introduced -- tried
25 to introduce one piece of it. And I didn't allow it
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1 in because it was some statement of some police
2 officer --
3 MR. WEINBERG: That is all it was.
4 THE COURT: -- or something. But there are
5 sworn statements, and there are -- there are
6 deposition testimony of certain witnesses which I
7 assumed he was filing for purposes of the summary
8 judgment.
9 He now says he's filing it for this purpose, as
10 well.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I guess we need to see what it
12 is.
13 MR. DANDAR: I gave you the cover page.
14 THE COURT: I looked at it. Whatever it is, is
15 probably admissible because it is a sworn statement,
16 a statement under oath of a witness. It is as good
17 as an affidavit. Certainly a sworn statement can be
18 introduced in a summary judgment motion.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I need --
20 THE COURT: Deposition --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I need to look at it.
22 THE COURT: Well, I have seen it. So if there
23 is something you don't want -- he can file anything
24 he wants. I just said I assumed you were filing it
25 for this motion, as well as motion for summary
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1 judgment.
2 MR. DANDAR: Correct.
3 MR. WEINBERG: The question, Mr. Lieberman, who
4 would be responding to this, is were we served with
5 this or not?
6 MR. DANDAR: In court.
7 MR. WEINBERG: You served us with a cover
8 sheet.
9 THE COURT: No, he served you with a book. I
10 saw him hand it to you. He gave it to me, to you --
11 MR. WEINBERG: He didn't. He only gave us a
12 cover sheet.
13 MR. DANDAR: I gave you the cover sheet because
14 they have this stuff. They have the depositions of
15 their staff, sworn statements of their staff taken
16 by the Clearwater Police Department.
17 THE COURT: Oh.
18 MR. DANDAR: They have all of this.
19 THE COURT: I thought -- I was assuming he
20 gave -- you gave him the same book.
21 MR. DANDAR: They need another copy.
22 THE COURT: You don't need more copies of the
23 depositions.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Not the depositions, but --
25 THE COURT: The sworn statements.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: The sworn statements? I think
2 what he's talking about are statements to the police
3 which haven't been --
4 THE COURT: Sworn statements to the State
5 Attorney, at least the one I read was.
6 MR. DANDAR: Both the State Attorney and the
7 police.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: There was a court reporter there.
10 The attorney representing the staff member was
11 there. And this is part of the Clearwater Police
12 file.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'll look at the summary and
14 figure it out.
15 THE COURT: They have been filed. If you have
16 an objection to them --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
18 THE COURT: -- you may indicate what your
19 objection is. They have been filed. I have
20 accepted them as filed.
21 I just wanted to ask him if he was going to use
22 them in this hearing as well as the summary
23 judgment.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I don't know what
25 Mr. Dandar is going to testify about tomorrow, how
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1 long that is going to be. And I don't know where --
2 what -- where Mr. Fugate is with regard to -- and I
3 know, you -- we still don't have those additional
4 tapes and some E-Mails and stuff.
5 THE COURT: Well, the truth of the matter is
6 you have every E-Mail that I have given you. I have
7 withheld no E-Mail. There is absolutely nothing on
8 any tape that I haven't already seen. So if you can
9 give it to me six months from now or whenever I feel
10 like ruling on it --
11 MR. WEINBERG: What I was going to say, I don't
12 know where he is as far as being -- presenting the
13 rebuttal.
14 And what -- what he indicated to me is to ask
15 you whether or not, whenever it was we finished
16 with -- with the plaintiff's case tomorrow, we could
17 start the next morning.
18 THE COURT: No. If he finishes at ten, I want
19 to go. He's here. Mr. Fugate, be prepared.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
21 THE COURT: I don't know when he'll finish. I
22 don't know -- I assume, if you want to drag it out
23 to the following day, we can do that.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not trying to drag anything
25 out. He asked me to ask you --
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1 THE COURT: No, the answer is no. I want to
2 finish this.
3 MR. WEINBERG: We want to finish it, too.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. WEINBERG: So, good night.
6 THE COURT: Good night.
7 MR. WEINBERG: We're off the record now?
8 THE COURT: We're off the record.
9 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:35 p.m.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 15th day of July, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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