1
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
2
3
4
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
5 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
6
7 Plaintiff,
8 vs. VOLUME 1
9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
11
Defendants.
12
_______________________________________/
13
14
15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
16
CONTENTS: Testimony of Wally Pope.
17
DATE: July 17, 2002. Afternoon Session.
18
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
19 St. Petersburg, Florida.
20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
21
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
22 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
23
24
25
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1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorney for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff.
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
12 MR. LEE FUGATE
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
18 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
19 Organization.
20
MR. ANTHONY BATTAGLIA
21 MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN
Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A.
22 980 Tyrone Boulevard
St. Petersburg, Florida 33710
23 Counsel for Robert Minton.
24
25
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1 THE COURT: You may begin your rebuttal.
2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would call Wally
3 Pope.
4 While I'm doing that, could I give the Court
5 what will be -- I think our next exhibit is 274.
6 Correct?
7 THE CLERK: Yes.
8 THE COURT: I think it is past that, isn't it?
9 MR. FUGATE: 273, I think, was the letter. And
10 this is -- that is a copy. I have given the
11 original to the clerk.
12 And, very quickly, while Mr. Pope is on the
13 way, I had indicated to your Honor at side bar the
14 other day that we had two subpoenas, based on
15 Mr. Prince's testimony, served on FDLE, one for
16 Agent Strope. And I was told that Agent Strope
17 would not be available, he was unavailable until the
18 22nd. So I asked then for a second subpoena to be
19 issued, which was for custodian of records for any
20 reports, notes, et cetera for any meetings in April,
21 May or June between Lee Strope and Mr. Prince.
22 And what is our Exhibit Number 274 is the
23 letter which Mr. Dandar said he would agree to, he
24 said whether or not it had any relevancy, we could
25 submit it. It is custodian of records, who happens
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1 to be Mr. Strope's supervisor. He did a check, he
2 didn't find anything.
3 You gave us permission to do a deposition of
4 Mr. Strope, obviously with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot.
5 And we'll supplement the record with that
6 deposition, with the Court's permission.
7 THE COURT: What I really said is I would
8 accept a simple affidavit from Mr. Strope either
9 that he did or he did not -- I really don't want a
10 huge, long deposition.
11 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would hope it wouldn't be
12 a huge, long one. But I don't know -- I think, in
13 fairness to both sides, probably a deposition would
14 be -- where both sides can ask the questions would
15 be --
16 THE COURT: Well, the deal is for all I know
17 FDLE is doing an investigation. If they are doing
18 an investigation, they are not going to want to tell
19 you about it, and they don't really have to. The
20 only relevance -- maybe they are not doing an
21 investigation, in which case they'll tell you
22 anything.
23 Really, the only relevance to this hearing is
24 whether or not Mr. Prince told us the truth when he
25 said he went and saw Agent Strope, or whether he
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1 didn't. So, really, a simple affidavit will do.
2 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge. Well, I can
3 tell you if they were doing an investigation, they
4 would have told me they wouldn't respond to the
5 subpoena. So I pretty much know what the answer to
6 that is. But that is the point. We'll do Agent
7 Strope --
8 THE COURT: I don't want you to tell Agent
9 Strope I agreed to a deposition. I did not agree to
10 a deposition because, quite frankly, the only thing
11 I would suggest has any bearing on this case is a
12 very simple -- I don't want Agent Strope to think I
13 want to tie him up in a deposition for any length of
14 time for this hearing, because I don't.
15 MR. FUGATE: I think I'll communicate to him
16 exactly what was said. And counsel can do likewise.
17 THE COURT: It can be a letter. It could be
18 the affidavit --
19 MR. WEINBERG: The real issue is whether or not
20 Agent Strope told Mr. Prince to go deliver a
21 message, if you remember.
22 THE COURT: That can be another part of it.
23 But part of it is, I presume, whether or not -- I
24 mean, according to this -- well, I haven't read it,
25 but based on what Mr. Fugate said the other day,
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1 they weren't able to uncover anything to suggest he
2 was there that would also be relevant from Agent
3 Strope.
4 Would you raise your right hand.
5 (Witness sworn.)
6 THE WITNESS: I do.
7 THE COURT: We are still here, Mr. Pope.
8 THE WITNESS: I noted.
9 THE COURT: Now, if you are involved in this
10 hearing before Judge Baird in Clearwater, take note.
11 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
12 ______________________________________
13 WALLY POPE,
14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
15 and testified as follows:
16 DIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. FUGATE:
18 Q Would you state your name for the record,
19 Mr. Pope?
20 A Wally Pope.
21 Q And how are you occupied? I know this is stupid
22 because everybody knows you.
23 A I'm a lawyer.
24 Q How long have you been a lawyer practicing --
25 admitted to the Florida Bar in good standing here?
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1 A Thirty-two years.
2 Q And in conjunction with your occupation, are you
3 presently representing the Church of Scientology and various
4 religious subdivisions thereof, corporations?
5 A Yes, I am.
6 Q Can you tell us in what cases so we have that for
7 the record?
8 A I was representing the Church as a plaintiff in
9 the injunction case against Mr. Minton and the LMT that
10 Judge Penick handled, that technically is still pending
11 before Judge Penick although it is inactive.
12 I was representing the Church in the -- in some
13 probate matters regarding the estate before Judge Greer.
14 And I was representing the Church and now a
15 related entity called RTC, Religious Technology Center, I
16 think it is, before Judge Baird in what we call the breach
17 of contract cases.
18 Q Okay. Now, sir --
19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I interrupt you-all far
20 too much. But there was at one time a suit that
21 apparently came from Texas locally before Judge
22 Boyer. Has that not been consolidated before Judge
23 Baird?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Is that a separate suit? Or is
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1 that part --
2 THE WITNESS: That is an action on a final
3 judgment from a Texas Federal District Court.
4 THE COURT: So that supports, sort of, the
5 fourth matter?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is.
7 THE COURT: But that is also before Judge Baird
8 at the moment?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
10 THE COURT: All right, thank you.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Now, sir --
13 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness and
14 give him --
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 MR. FUGATE: -- a copy of what has been marked
17 and admitted into evidence as our 273, which is the
18 July 2nd letter?
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 BY MR. FUGATE:
21 Q I ask you if you will take a moment to look at
22 Exhibit 273, a July 2, 2002 letter, ask you if you can
23 identify that when you have had an opportunity to look at
24 it.
25 A This is a letter that I received a copy of that
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1 was sent by Mr. Kennan Dandar to the Florida Bar, actually
2 it is addressed to Tampa, but to Jan Wichrowski, who is in
3 the Orlando disciplinary office.
4 Q And by way of --
5 THE COURT: Is this the person -- sorry. Is
6 this the person assigned to this case, whoever it
7 is?
8 THE WITNESS: The case was originally in Tampa
9 but it was sent over to the Orlando office for
10 reasons that I don't understand.
11 BY MR. FUGATE:
12 Q Well, sir, let me just ask you some questions, if
13 I may, about the allegations in the letter, and then I'm
14 going to go through and try to go back to some issues that
15 were raised either by the Court or Mr. Dandar earlier today.
16 First of all, if you flip over to Page 2, in the
17 second paragraph you see that basically the allegation is
18 made that extortion has taken place. And throughout the
19 letter I think you would have to -- would you say that it is
20 accusing you, among others, of extorting and blackmailing
21 Mr. Minton?
22 A That is how I read the letter.
23 Q All right. Have you extorted or blackmailed or
24 done anything illegal or unethical, in your mind, to Robert
25 Minton?
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1 A No.
2 Q Have you ever met Robert Minton before?
3 A Only in the courtroom. I cross-examined
4 Mr. Minton in the injunction case. I prosecuted him for
5 indirect criminal contempt in the injunction case. I have
6 said hello to him, as we passed in court proceedings. And
7 that is it.
8 Q Now, you see in the last paragraph -- last two
9 sentences of that same paragraph, an allegation that you
10 failed to inform the Florida Bar of the details of the
11 secret agreement. Do you see that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And is there a secret agreement between you or, to
14 your knowledge, any of the other lawyers and Mr. Minton
15 involving any litigation that you are involved with and/or
16 the Flag wrongful death case here?
17 A I know of no such agreement.
18 Q Sir, in terms of whether or not an extortion or a
19 blackmail has taken place, can you tell us if you have any
20 knowledge of when a settlement negotiation began with
21 Mr. Minton and his counsel?
22 A Yes. I have firsthand knowledge of that.
23 Q Can you tell the Court when that was, sir?
24 A The first contact that I had about settlement was
25 in the first week of February of this year, 2002. And it
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1 came about during a telephone conversation that I had with
2 Bruce Howie who had come into the breach case to represent
3 Mr. Minton. He had taken over from where Mr. John Merrett
4 had left off.
5 We had a telephone conversation because I was in
6 the process of adding Mr. Minton in as a personal defendant,
7 claiming that he had -- he had, in fact, induced the breach
8 of contract in this case and that he should be responsible
9 for it. It was a tortious interference claim.
10 And so I had this conversation with Mr. Howie.
11 And he --
12 Q That you were planning on adding Mr. Minton?
13 A Yes. We were talking about some of the mechanics
14 of it. And it was -- frankly, I had not been able to talk
15 about anything rationally with Mr. Merrett. What I got --
16 what I got from Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett was just mindless
17 belligerence, really.
18 It was when Mr. Howie came into the case I finally
19 had a lawyer I could talk to. So we talked.
20 And he said to me in this conversation that he had
21 been given the task of extricating Mr. Minton from the mess
22 he was in, and that he recognized that he was just in a
23 terrible mess, and he was tired of it, he wanted out. He
24 wanted to know if we could talk about -- sit down and meet
25 and talk about settling this particular case.
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1 And I -- I said I was always in favor of
2 settlement and would report that development to the client.
3 He also, as I recall, said to me he felt
4 Mr. Minton had gotten -- had wandered too far into the
5 swamp, as he put it.
6 And the reason that I remember this conversation
7 is that I was shocked, because up until that point there
8 really had been only mindless belligerence. There was never
9 any talk trying to resolve anything in a civilized way at
10 all. So this -- this was really a breath of fresh air.
11 So I reported it to the client immediately. And I
12 reported it to my co-counsel in the case, Samuel Rosen from
13 the Paul Weiss firm in New York.
14 And as a consequence, the client said, "Yes, we
15 would always be interested in trying to resolve amicably
16 this dispute. We're tired of it, too."
17 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I don't want to breach
18 any attorney-client privilege here, but I think
19 that, in terms of putting the record straight, will
20 not do that, and I don't intend to go into any other
21 attorney-client conversations. I just want to
22 advise the Court of that.
23 THE COURT: All right. Your client is Church
24 of Scientology Flag Service Organization?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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1 THE COURT: Or one of the other --
2 THE WITNESS: It is Flag. It is Flag in the
3 breach case, although that case that was before
4 Judge Boyer, the plaintiff there is RTC.
5 THE COURT: But at the moment you are talking
6 about --
7 THE WITNESS: I'm talking about Flag.
8 THE COURT: Mr. Howie was coming to you about
9 the breach of contract case pending before Judge
10 Baird where Flag was the plaintiff?
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 A So I -- as a consequence of that initial exchange,
14 I was told -- or I contacted Mr. Rosen. And Mr. Rosen and I
15 and Bruce Howie had a three-way telephone conversation
16 between Florida and New York where we were located.
17 And -- and the message we gave to him was we're
18 interested in talking but we want to talk about resolving
19 everything. You know, we want out of this thing. We want
20 to get it over with.
21 And so Mr. Minton apparently wanted to try and
22 meet in late February, around the 20th or so, but for one
23 reason or another everybody couldn't get in the right place
24 at that time. And the meeting didn't take place until late
25 March. And I don't remember the -- it might have been the
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1 29th or 30th or thereabouts.
2 And the meeting took place, as I understand it, in
3 the northeast. It was either in New York or Boston, and I
4 don't remember which. I did not participate in that meeting
5 and I have never participated in any of the meetings with
6 Mr. Minton, even though a number of them were held at my
7 office. I simply made my facility available as a conference
8 room as a convenient meeting place. So --
9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor --
10 A So --
11 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry.
12 A So that is the long and the short of how the --
13 the settlement discussions between Mr. Minton and Flag
14 started.
15 BY MR. FUGATE:
16 Q A phone call from Mr. Howie to you, is that
17 correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And about how long after that first week of
20 February phone call was the conference call between you and
21 Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen?
22 A It was sometime during the next week.
23 Q And it's your recollection then there was a
24 meeting set for near the end of February?
25 A No. That was a suggestion by Mr. Minton. And
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1 then I -- I sort of was out of it at that point. I had
2 initiated the contact, and I believe Mr. Rosen and Mr. Howie
3 had some further discussions in which I did not participate.
4 Q And then Mr. Jonas, as far as you know, got
5 involved. And Mr. Howie was still back here in Florida?
6 A Correct. I don't believe Mr. Howie participated
7 in the meeting up in the northeast, but Mr. Minton's Boston
8 counsel did, whom I do not know.
9 Q Now, if you turn to -- it's the fourth page -- I'm
10 sorry -- and beginning the second paragraph, if you'll read
11 that to yourself about tortious interference. I have got a
12 question about that.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you have any idea what the reference to
15 tortious interference by you for the Church of Scientology
16 is?
17 A Not -- not really.
18 Q Well, can you tell us, if you go down to the next
19 paragraph which is somewhere we're going to get to, you see
20 here, "In front of Magistrate Jenkins in Federal Court," can
21 you just tell us your recollection of what happened there?
22 A All right. There was a separate lawsuit in the
23 state of Texas in the U.S. District Court by RTC, a separate
24 corporation. It was a jury trial. I did not participate in
25 it in any form.
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1 It resulted in a jury verdict for damages against
2 the estate for breach of contract. It was -- it was the
3 same contract that Flag was litigating before Judge Baird
4 except that RTC was the third-party beneficiary of the
5 contract and it filed a separate suit in the state of Texas.
6 It went fairly quickly. It resulted in a jury
7 verdict that I think is reduced to final judgment in the
8 amount of about $308,000 for RTC.
9 Then the judge awarded post-trial attorney fees
10 because the contract had that provision in it. And awarded
11 fees in favor of RTC and against the estate. And also
12 awarded about $96,000 or $98,000 in fees against the two
13 Dandar brothers for vexatious litigation under a federal
14 statute.
15 Those have all been reduced to final judgment and
16 they are in the name of RTC.
17 I was asked to domesticate the first judgment that
18 came out in the amount of $308,000. I did it in two ways.
19 You can -- when you are dealing with a federal court
20 judgment, there are two ways you can actually proceed on
21 dual tracks.
22 You can register the judgment with the federal
23 district court and get writs and -- and get discovery there.
24 And you can also file an independent action on it in the
25 Florida state court.
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1 Or the more expeditious way, you can proceed under
2 the Uniform Enforcement of Foreign Judgments Act, which is
3 55.505, .509, in there.
4 So we decided to register the judgment under the
5 Foreign Enforcement of Judgments Act (sic) in Florida and to
6 register it in federal court. So that is what I did. And
7 that took place in probably late April.
8 I -- I filed -- I was asking for discovery in the
9 federal court, and I was asking for writs of garnishment
10 against the Dandar bank accounts to try to collect on the
11 judgment on the basis that it appeared, from what had been
12 said in proceedings, that the Dandars were holding money
13 that belonged to the estate and it would be available to
14 satisfy the judgment.
15 So I proceeded down that line. And we had a
16 hearing on May 9 before Judge Jenkins. And I think the
17 timing here is interesting because your order on discovery
18 was not entered until May 27th.
19 So on May 9th I go over there. And on the morning
20 of the hearing the Dandars served me with a defensive
21 memorandum, pointing out the existence of a statute, Section
22 1963 -- 28 USC, Section 1963, which is a federal statute
23 that I, frankly, had completely forgotten about it. I had
24 encountered it one other time in my 32 years of practice.
25 And I, frankly, had forgotten about it.
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1 But the minute they served that paper on me five
2 minutes before the hearing, I realized it was a problem.
3 And my problem was that statute says that when you get a
4 federal judgment in another district like in Texas, and you
5 try to register it in another district like Tampa, if there
6 is an appeal pending, even though there is no bond posted,
7 you can't -- you can't register it. You can't get a writ of
8 execution on it. And you can't get a writ of garnishment on
9 it.
10 So the minute that they served that on me and I
11 realized that that was the case, I withdrew my motions for
12 writs of garnishment. I just withdrew them on the record.
13 But -- Judge Jenkins never got to that. But I told her I
14 was entitled to discovery under Rule 69 in aid of execution.
15 She later -- here just recently -- it was a tough
16 question -- she finally concluded that the particular issue
17 had never been decided by any court in the United States,
18 and decided that until we perfected the judgment under
19 Florida procedure, I couldn't get discovery in execution.
20 We were on the verge of perfecting the judgment
21 before Judge Baird. And that issue I just submitted my last
22 memorandum to him on yesterday and both sides had to submit
23 simultaneous. And if my law is right, Judge Baird will
24 enter an order saying this is a valid judgment in the state
25 of Florida.
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1 So that -- so the Judge Jenkins thing was an
2 effort to collect on a judgment for RTC. Not for Flag but
3 for RTC.
4 Q In your experience, would that be any kind of
5 tortious interference with anything?
6 A I think that a judgment creditor is entitled to go
7 try to collect the judgment wherever. I mean, the legal
8 thing has run its course.
9 Now, let me say this. They did take an appeal.
10 But they didn't bond it off. And the funny peculiar twist
11 of the federal law is that judgment is final in Texas and it
12 is fine, execute on it in Texas. You just can't execute on
13 it in any other district. But you can convert it to Florida
14 judgment under the uniform thing, and once it is done, you
15 can execute on it in Florida. And the only way they can
16 stop you is put up a bond under 55.509, which is the Uniform
17 Enforcement of Foreign Judgment Act.
18 Q If a bond were posted, would part of the
19 requirement of the bond be it be served on the lawyers on
20 the other side?
21 A Generally, yes. I mean, I have not seen any bond
22 so far. But we're dealing here with three judgments. One
23 for 308,000, one for 200-something, and one against the
24 Dandars personally for 98-something. And I have not seen a
25 bond in any of those cases.
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1 THE COURT: What is the one for 200-something?
2 THE WITNESS: That is the attorney fee award.
3 There was -- the attorney fee award was split
4 with -- 98,000 against the Dandars and the rest
5 against the estate.
6 THE COURT: And then that was separate and
7 apart from the $300,000 judgment against the estate
8 on the suit?
9 THE WITNESS: Correct. The total amount of the
10 judgments, in round numbers, is about $600,000. I
11 think it is a little less, I can't remember the
12 exact number. So it is --
13 THE COURT: Out of curiosity, obviously I never
14 dealt in these types of lawsuits. If that lawsuit
15 had to do with the breach of contract by attempting
16 to add these parties and that is the issue pending
17 before Judge Baird, how do you -- how do you get a
18 suit in Texas and then -- get a judgment, and then
19 get another judgment in Clearwater?
20 THE WITNESS: Two different parties. It is RTC
21 was the party in Texas. And Flag is the party here.
22 The contract was with Flag, but it was -- but RTC
23 was the third-party beneficiary of the contract.
24 So they sued on the third-party beneficiary
25 theory in the Texas court for RTC, and on a direct
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1 breach of contract for Flag before Judge Baird.
2 And, in fact, Judge Baird has granted us a
3 summary judgment on liability on the issue, and only
4 thing left to determine is damages.
5 BY MR. FUGATE:
6 Q Is it your understanding there are two separate
7 breaches, one is to Flag and one is to RTC?
8 A Yes. They arise out of the same contract but they
9 are two completely separate things. RTC had its damages and
10 Flag had its damages.
11 Q And other than acknowledging that you had
12 forgotten about 1963, whatever the title is there, do you
13 recall being scolded by the Court and admonished?
14 A Well, Judge Jenkins -- reading between the lines
15 because I tried a few cases before her, was a little irked
16 that she spent so much time on an issue that I withdrew.
17 But I wouldn't say what she did was admonish me.
18 But -- but the defendant filed a motion for
19 sanctions against me, and she denied it. And Rule 11 is
20 kind of a toothy sanctions provision in federal practice.
21 And she denied that motion when she issued her order denying
22 us the discovery, as well.
23 Q And if I understood what you said, when you began
24 the hearing you notified her you were withdrawing the
25 motion?
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1 A Absolutely. Right on the front end, that is the
2 first thing out of my mouth. I said I really don't think I
3 can proceed in view of the defense they raised and I told
4 her, frankly, that I had completely forgotten about Section
5 1963, and there it was, staring me in the face.
6 Q Now, let me see here. If you turn to the next
7 page --
8 THE COURT: What was the date of my order
9 again? He said it and I have forgotten.
10 MR. FUGATE: It is May 27th.
11 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q If you turn to the next page and look at the
14 second paragraph there, would you read that to yourself.
15 And I'm going to ask you some questions about that.
16 MR. FUGATE: Do you have that, Judge?
17 A Is that the one beginning "When I presented the
18 recent filing"?
19 BY MR. FUGATE:
20 Q "-- of Mr. Pope's attempt to gain a full
21 accounting."
22 A Yes. Okay.
23 Q Can you tell us, what is the history leading up to
24 the -- the last motion which you filed, and I'm going to ask
25 you to explain what that was, and whether or not you were
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1 aware of the 2d DCA orders and, obviously, the orders of
2 Judge Schaeffer?
3 A We -- we filed a motion before Judge Greer in
4 effect submitting to Judge Greer the materials that had gone
5 to Judge Baird relative to disqualification. And we asked
6 Judge Greer to take action on it.
7 And at the same time, we asked him -- we said
8 there had never been an accounting, that the records showed
9 that there were a couple of million dollars floating around
10 that at one point or another was supposedly the money of the
11 estate, although that has now come into question, and we
12 thought that an accounting was appropriate.
13 Judge Greer enters an order saying, "Well, I'm not
14 going to take any action because the proceedings before
15 Judge Baird are still in progress --" or at least that is
16 what he indicated from the bench, and he denied that, but he
17 said, "I'm going to exercise my authority to order an
18 accounting."
19 So Judge Greer already ordered an accounting. The
20 motion that I filed was a motion asking him to expedite it
21 and to make sure it was complete.
22 And when -- and somewhere in that -- somewhere
23 just before I filed that motion, I received a copy of the
24 May 27 order from this Court. And I said, well, I certainly
25 don't want to run afoul of this court's order, so I put in
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1 my request that the accounting should go to the judge, eyes
2 only, in camera, and not be released to us. And I thought
3 that that would be in the spirit of your order and that I
4 was interested in this -- you know, there being an
5 accounting now while -- before the money is all gone and,
6 you know, wherever it is, we don't know what the deal is on
7 the money. But I'm representing a -- judgment creditors who
8 have a claim on this money. So that is -- that is what I
9 was interested in. I was trying to enforce a judgment.
10 So, at any rate, I figured I could harmonize the
11 signature between this Court's order and respect it by
12 saying, please order an accounting, you just take it, Judge
13 Greer, then when the time is right, we can -- we can know
14 what it is.
15 Q Didn't ask to have any information provided to you
16 or your client in that matter?
17 A No. And then -- and then I heard -- after that I
18 heard that Judge Schaeffer was upset about this. So I
19 withdrew it. I just said, I'm not going to get into this,
20 so I withdrew the request. It is withdrawn.
21 Q Well, I hate to ask you this with the judge
22 sitting there. An accounting be done and filed in camera
23 with the Court so that it is available. I mean, we know
24 that. We won't know until the judge releases it, but I
25 mean, to me, that doesn't -- that doesn't disclose the
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1 information to us.
2 THE COURT: Did -- the judge's request for an
3 accounting, is it still out there?
4 THE WITNESS: They are still under an order but
5 he gave them fairly long lead time, and I can't tell
6 you when it is due, maybe in June or -- July or
7 August. I can't honestly --
8 THE COURT: Would an accounting not be a public
9 document?
10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, if -- unless the Court
11 ordered it to be sealed, it would be a public
12 document. But what I did when I filed my motion
13 was, in effect, requested that it be sealed.
14 THE COURT: But -- but you can understand
15 that -- that if the judge's order didn't say it be
16 sealed -- in other words, I have enough on my plate,
17 I hope you understand that, I have got all kinds
18 of -- of just hateful allegations being made by one
19 side against the other.
20 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: They are not the kind of
22 allegations a judge likes to resolve. The judge
23 sits as a party of one trying to figure out which
24 lawyers are lying, which lawyers -- which parties
25 are committing extortion, if any, who suborned
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1 perjury, who committed perjury, right in front of my
2 very eyes as I sit and watch them. Those are not
3 happy days. God only knows what day this is in this
4 hearing, so many I don't -- and I have got somebody
5 telling me, I have these orders, they are -- the
6 Second District is saying it looks like one side is
7 trying to find out how much money the other side has
8 to thwart their ability to bring a lawsuit. And
9 then I get another, guess what, here they are
10 after -- they are trying to do it again.
11 In other words, you do understand that if I
12 gave Mr. Dandar that order as some help to him to --
13 to protect what the Second District had said and
14 that is that he should have the right to pursue his
15 lawsuit without some thought that perhaps the Church
16 of Scientology would -- would deflate him of money
17 so he couldn't pursue it.
18 THE WITNESS: I understand completely.
19 THE COURT: So when it is brought to my
20 attention that there is more effort being made and I
21 don't have time to read everything and hear
22 everything, you can understand why I might have said
23 I don't want to see it, I don't want to hear it, I
24 don't want it happening, make it go away.
25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can understand why
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1 you might get a little short in these proceedings,
2 because I have never done anything like this in 32
3 years of law practice.
4 THE COURT: Trust me, I have gotten short. And
5 I hope these lawyers -- on occasion I remember
6 saying I'm sorry that I lost my temper. Overall,
7 Mr. Pope, I think I have done rather well.
8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would say.
9 THE COURT: Every day, I -- I usually lose my
10 judicial temper at least once, so --
11 And, Mr. Pope, whatever we were talking about,
12 the other side of that coin is, of course, I'm
13 having allegations made that -- that a church -- a
14 church that sits in my community and my county -- is
15 trying to undermine a complaint from going to
16 fruition.
17 Sometimes you try to protect both parties, as a
18 judge, and sometimes you try to protect them from
19 themselves.
20 THE WITNESS: I -- I understand.
21 THE COURT: Both sides.
22 THE WITNESS: I have seen judges do that.
23 THE COURT: That is right. So sometimes you
24 say, "Look, I don't know if there is any truth to
25 this or not but I don't want to hear about it."
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1 So --
2 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4 BY MR. FUGATE:
5 Q Mr. Pope, I had a big note to myself which I
6 missed, if you'll go back to the second page of Exhibit 273,
7 which is the July 2nd letter, when you see the word "This is
8 extortion," that second paragraph?
9 A Yes.
10 Q The paragraph -- or the last two sentences down in
11 that same paragraph, if you would read that to yourself. I
12 have got a question and I forgot to ask you about -- there
13 about the Mary Carter agreement.
14 A Okay.
15 Q I think I gave you -- I'm sorry, I asked you to
16 read the wrong one. It is the next paragraph down, it is
17 talking about the Mary Carter agreement. If you would look
18 at that.
19 A Okay.
20 Q I asked you if you knew about any secret
21 agreement. Do you know what this allegation about a Mary
22 Carter agreement is and how that would relate to this?
23 A I honestly don't know of any agreement that
24 existed between Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks and Flag or any
25 other person or company.
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1 My understanding was that when Mr. Minton said,
2 through his counsel, "I want to negotiate," they sat down
3 and step number one was -- since we had been stonewalled in
4 a lot of our discovery efforts -- was come clean. This is
5 part of the negotiation process, tell us what is going on.
6 And -- and so he told. And that is why we're
7 here.
8 Q Well, that is why we're here. The allegation by
9 Mr. Dandar was you filed a Bar complaint against him. And I
10 would ask you to look at what I handed up to you for
11 identification as Defendant's Exhibit 275 and ask you if you
12 can identify that?
13 A Is that my letter of April 11?
14 Q Yes, sir.
15 A It's my letter.
16 Q Can you tell us how that came to pass and whether
17 or not -- just tell us what it is and how it came to pass.
18 A I attended this hearing before Judge Baird on
19 April 9, 2002. This was the hearing at which Mr. Minton
20 began the recantation process. In 32 years in this
21 business, I never had been in a situation in which a witness
22 recanted. I had never been in a situation in which there
23 was testimony in court that an attorney had urged the
24 witness to lie under oath. This was shocking news to me.
25 I used to teach the professional responsibility
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1 part of the Bridge The Gap Program. I was on the Board of
2 Governors for four years. I had a grievance committee in
3 this county for three years. So I'm fairly familiar with
4 the rules of professional conduct. And I remembered that
5 there was a provision about reporting the misconduct of an
6 attorney.
7 And so I went back and I got my book out and I --
8 I found it. It is 4-8.3. And it says: "A lawyer having
9 knowledge that another lawyer has committed a violation of
10 the rules of professional conduct that raises a substantial
11 question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or
12 fitness as a lawyer in other respects shall inform the
13 appropriate professional authority."
14 Incidentally, it says the same thing about a
15 lawyer knowing the same kind of information about a judge in
16 the next paragraph.
17 So, I -- it said "shall inform the appropriate
18 professional authority." Well, I still wasn't quite sure
19 what I was supposed to do about this, so I called Susan
20 Bloemendaal, who I believe is the chief branch counsel at
21 the Bar's office in Tampa. And I -- I'd worked with her
22 over the years, sometimes even defending lawyers who were
23 charged with grievances, and knew her.
24 And I explained what I had heard in court. And I
25 said, "Am I obliged under this to report this to the Bar?"
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1 And she told me in no uncertain terms that I was.
2 And that if I didn't, it would be a violation on my part.
3 I had never done this before. I took no pleasure
4 in it. I take no pleasure in it today. It is an onerous
5 thing. But the rule said I had to do it.
6 So I sent her a short letter, without editorial
7 comment, that just said, "Here is the transcript. You
8 figure it out."
9 Q And -- well, it speaks for itself. You didn't
10 lodge a Bar complaint, you followed her advice and --
11 THE COURT: Counsel, please.
12 MR. FUGATE: Sorry.
13 BY MR. FUGATE:
14 Q Now, if you go to the next-to-the-last page of the
15 July 2nd letter and you go down to the second-to-the-last
16 paragraph, "Mr. Pope individually and on behalf of his
17 client," do you see that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Would you read that to yourself.
20 A Yes.
21 Q Do you, sir, believe that any of your actions have
22 been to conduct a charade or cause a charade to be played
23 upon the Bar or this or any other court that you have been
24 litigating in in this matter?
25 A I have seen -- the answer is no. And I have seen,
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1 over the years, lawyers do some crummy things. But I didn't
2 think anything that I had seen fit within this definition of
3 substantially -- question as to responsible,
4 truthworthiness, et cetera.
5 That is why I did it. I did it because the rule
6 told me I had to, and the disciplinary authority told me.
7 If she said, "No, you don't have to report it," then I would
8 not have done so.
9 Q One last question. Mr. Dandar testified earlier
10 today that --
11 THE COURT: We're not going to have one person
12 commenting on another person's credibility here, are
13 we?
14 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm going to ask a question,
15 Judge. I think I'm going right down the middle of
16 the road here, Judge.
17 THE COURT: All right.
18 BY MR. FUGATE:
19 Q Mr. Dandar indicated that there was a deposition
20 set for custodian of records for the United Bank of
21 Switzerland, and he indicated that you cancelled that
22 because he believed you had a copy of a $500,000 UBS check?
23 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon did.
24 BY MR. FUGATE:
25 Q Well, or that -- that Mr. Moxon did. Can you tell
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1 the Court what transpired leading up to the deposition and
2 how the deposition got cancelled?
3 A We had served some subpoenas. I think one was --
4 one might have been in New York. One might have been in
5 Miami. I honestly can't remember. But we served some
6 subpoenas to get these checks. And I got into some extended
7 discussions with in-house lawyers for the U.S. branch of
8 this bank because you always, when you subpoena bank
9 records, you get into discussions with their lawyers. And I
10 got into this discussion with them, and I talked back and
11 forth to them, and they were looking for these checks and
12 looking and looking. And they finally called me up and they
13 said, "We cannot find the check. We have no record of it."
14 And I said, "Is that what your witness is going to
15 say if we have this deposition," which I think was down in
16 Miami?
17 And they said, "Yes."
18 I said, "Well, I'm not going through that useless
19 exercise of flying to Miami for that." So the depositions
20 cancelled.
21 It was after that that I believe we got copies of
22 the check through Mr. Minton. But that happened afterwards.
23 We -- at the time I cancelled those depositions, we did not
24 have copies of those checks.
25 THE COURT: Are we talking about -- you're
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1 talking about "those checks." I thought at that
2 time there was one check and that was the one for
3 $500,000 to the LMT.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, there -- there
5 were two -- two checks in play. One for $250,000
6 and one for $500,000. And I can't honestly remember
7 if my subpoena was directed to both or just one of
8 them. But there were two different sums of money in
9 play.
10 BY MR. FUGATE:
11 Q And these subpoenas --
12 THE COURT: I'm really confused now because I
13 thought this was a check to LMT for half a million
14 dollars that Mr. --
15 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can sort this out.
16 BY MR. FUGATE:
17 Q Did you seek the subpoena -- or cause the subpoena
18 to be issued after Mr. Minton had testified in front of
19 Judge Baird on the -- on April 9 in --
20 A Yes.
21 Q So that the subpoenas went out after Mr. Minton
22 had come and talked about the check. Did you have -- or to
23 your knowledge did Mr. Rosen have any USB (sic) checks -- or
24 United Bank of Switzerland checks -- in any amount at that
25 time?
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1 A No. No. Never. We learned about that at his
2 testimony on the 9th. And that is when we decided we would
3 try to get copies of them by subpoena.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, this is a completely
5 different set of subpoenas than the LMT ones that I
6 had asked questions about.
7 THE COURT: Yes, that is what I thought. We're
8 talking about two --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Totally different --
10 THE COURT: Apples and oranges here. But that
11 is all right.
12 MR. FUGATE: That is all of the questions I
13 have.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Cross-examine?
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
16 THE COURT: And for whatever it is worth, I
17 don't really want to litigate anything involving a
18 Bar grievance, a suggested Bar grievance here.
19 Okay?
20 MR. DANDAR: I don't, either.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Mr. Pope, when Mr. Howie first called you in
24 February of 2002, isn't it true that Mr. Howie had already
25 made an appearance in the Clearwater case and had filed a
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1 motion to dismiss on behalf of Mr. Minton?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Isn't it true, sir, that when Mr. Howie called
4 you, like in any other normal case, he asked, "How much does
5 your client want to settle," because this didn't seem like a
6 big deal to keep incurring attorney fees?
7 A I -- from what I remember of the conversation is a
8 general settlement overture. He may have asked, you know,
9 how much would it take to settle this matter.
10 Q When he asked about settling the matter, he was
11 talking only about the Clearwater case. Correct?
12 A I'm not sure that that is true. I mean, he -- he
13 said -- he made some general statements like, "Mr. Minton
14 has gotten in over his head, he wants out, he -- he's tired
15 of this. He wandered too far into the swamp."
16 So my read on the case was that there was an olive
17 branch being extended to engage in some negotiations,
18 wherever they might lead.
19 Q At that moment, of course, you couldn't make any
20 agreement with Mr. Howie, you had to get a hold of your
21 client. Correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And when you got a hold of your client, what
24 happened next was that you and Mr. Rosen got on the phone
25 and talked with Mr. Howie. Is that right?
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1 A That is correct.
2 Q And in that conversation, you or Mr. Rosen -- you
3 tell me which one -- told Mr. Howie that the Church isn't
4 interested in settling just the Clearwater case, that the
5 only way the Church would entertain settlement discussions
6 if it was a "global settlement"?
7 A I don't recall the -- the statement being in those
8 categorical terms.
9 What I recall is that Mr. Rosen did express the
10 desire that if we were going to talk, we wanted to talk
11 about everything. We wanted to talk about a complete
12 extrication and resolution of all issues that involved
13 Mr. Minton.
14 Q Did Mr. Rosen use the terms -- the term
15 "disengagement" to Mr. Howie?
16 A I don't remember.
17 Q Did Mr. Rosen say to Mr. Howie about any terms of
18 this -- any preconditions before the Church of Scientology
19 would talk about settlement?
20 A I -- I do not remember the attachment of
21 preconditions. I do remember the general thrust of the
22 conversation was that we wanted to -- if we were going to
23 talk, we wanted to talk about everything.
24 Q And when is the first time you found out that
25 there was a meeting on March 28 and 29 in New York City?
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1 A Probably -- I may have learned that it was
2 scheduled -- can't remember -- probably shortly after the
3 meeting I learned that it had taken place.
4 Q Okay. I'm not getting into -- I'm not going to
5 attempt to do attorney-client communication. But let me ask
6 you this.
7 Did you -- were you informed as to all of the
8 demands made by the Church of Scientology to Mr. Minton in
9 the meeting on March 28 and 29?
10 A I was not informed of the details of the
11 negotiations between the parties.
12 Q Okay.
13 THE COURT: And, obviously, you weren't
14 present.
15 THE WITNESS: I was not present. I was never
16 present at any negotiating session with Mr. Minton.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q However, in Clearwater, following that New York
19 meeting, the Church of Scientology used your offices on
20 Saturday, April 6, and Sunday, April 7, is that right?
21 A I don't remember the dates. I made my office
22 available every time the client requested it.
23 Q And when is the first time you found out that
24 Mr. Minton had stated that I had suborned perjury of him in
25 his deposition? When is the first time you heard that?
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1 A I don't know if -- it seems like Mr. Minton's
2 deposition was taken --
3 Q The next day on April 8.
4 A And I did not attend that. And I don't know -- I
5 frankly don't know if he said that in his deposition or if
6 he said it the first time in the courtroom. The first --
7 the first -- I just don't remember. It was one of those
8 days, probably.
9 Q Did you participate in the reviewing or drafting
10 of the motion to disqualify me that Mr. Rosen handed to my
11 brother at the end of Mr. Minton's deposition on April 8
12 with the hearing set for April 9?
13 A I think I drafted it.
14 Q Isn't it true, sir, that in that motion you did
15 not mention one fact to support your motion, simply that
16 there has been a violation of the Florida Bar rules?
17 A I think it was a bare-bones motion, as I recall.
18 Q So no facts were alleged, correct?
19 A The motion would speak for itself. But my
20 recollection is it was a pretty short motion.
21 Q Okay. So how is it -- without, of course,
22 violating work product, how is it that you, as a lawyer in
23 good standing, drafted a motion without knowing what the
24 facts were?
25 A Well, I may well have known what the facts were.
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1 I -- it could be that I learned them after that deposition.
2 I honestly can't remember. But I learned them in close
3 proximity to the hearing. It might have been a day before.
4 Q If you had known the facts to support your
5 motion -- a serious motion to disqualify counsel for
6 misconduct, you certainly would have put the facts in your
7 motion before you served it. Isn't that true?
8 A Well, not necessarily.
9 Q Were you trying to do a surprise at the hearing on
10 April 9?
11 A Was I trying to do a surprise?
12 Q Yes. You don't think it is fair to advise me of
13 what grounds you are going to argue the next day at the
14 hearing on a motion to disqualify so you just put a
15 bare-bones motion together?
16 A Well, I -- I put a bare-bones motion together.
17 And whether that was fair to you I'll leave up to the Judge
18 to decide.
19 THE COURT: It's my recollection, quite
20 frankly, that at that deposition -- and I certainly
21 can be corrected -- it was my recollection at that
22 deposition that none -- none of the facts that later
23 came out on the 9th was discussed at all.
24 Matter of fact, I remember reading it thinking,
25 here I expected to read all of what we're going to
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1 hear about. And there was nothing there.
2 And so if that is the deposition you're
3 referring to, Mr. Pope, as I said, the record will
4 speak for itself, the deposition will speak for
5 itself. I don't think there was anything in there
6 that discussed any lies, perjury or anything of the
7 sort. Maybe it did.
8 I think the first time I heard anything, read
9 anything, that alleged Mr. Minton speaking of
10 Mr. Dandar and suborning perjury and whatnot was at
11 the first hearing in front of Judge Baird where -- I
12 don't know if it was a contempt hearing or
13 something, contempt sentencing, which would have
14 been April 9.
15 MR. DANDAR: You are absolutely correct. That
16 was a contempt hearing on April 9. There was
17 absolutely nothing in his deposition, it was a total
18 waste, except we later discovered here Mr. Minton
19 lied in that deposition.
20 THE COURT: Well, but I mean there was nothing
21 in there --
22 MR. DANDAR: Nothing, zero.
23 THE COURT: -- about Mr. Dandar and perjury.
24 So it might have -- might it have been April 9 when
25 you actually learned facts or heard --
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1 THE WITNESS: I honestly can't remember, your
2 Honor.
3 THE COURT: Like I told many a witness in this
4 courtroom, that is a perfectly valid, decent answer.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Mr. Pope, you certainly would not have filed a
7 motion to disqualify an attorney for improper conduct
8 without knowing the facts to support your motion?
9 A If I have a co-counsel that tells me in his
10 reasoned judgment he needs a motion to disqualify and has
11 facts to support it, and I'm -- I'm comfortable with my
12 co-counsel, I may well have done that.
13 Q And that is what I'm going to try to get to.
14 Okay?
15 A But I would say, in addition, that certainly what
16 came out at that hearing supports a motion to disqualify.
17 Q And did you know about the meetings that took
18 place in your office -- the substance of those meetings that
19 took place in your office, without Mr. Minton having an
20 attorney present, on April 6th and 7th?
21 A I -- I did not participate in those meetings. And
22 the only thing that I ever learned about them was -- would
23 have been what others communicated to me.
24 Q And throughout the -- what transpired after that
25 hearing on April 9, would it be fair to say that Mr. Rosen
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1 was the one that led the way, and you were simply, as his
2 co-counsel, as a Florida attorney, to assist him when he
3 directed you to assist him?
4 A I'm not sure I understand your question.
5 Q Well, you just told me that if Mr. Rosen
6 apparently told you to go ahead and file a motion to
7 disqualify me, you didn't know what the facts were but you
8 trusted he knew what the facts were?
9 A You know, I suspect Mr. Rosen communicated to me
10 the facts. But I honestly can't -- my -- my present
11 recollection is that the full-blown facts came out at the
12 hearing of the 9th. That is when I learned the meat on the
13 bones.
14 Q Wasn't it true, sir, more facts came out on the
15 19th of April and the 30th of April?
16 A I believe there were hearings and there were more
17 facts that came out.
18 MR. DANDAR: I have to ask him just hopefully
19 one question about this. Mr. Fugate asked about
20 this letter of mine of July 2nd.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q You filed -- when you filed a complaint against
23 me -- you, Mr. Pope, are the one that filed the complaint
24 against Ken Dandar, correct?
25 A Well, I didn't consider it to be filing a
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1 complaint in the sense that I didn't go through what -- I
2 think there are complaint forms and complaint procedures. I
3 considered myself as reporting professional misconduct for
4 the Bar to decide to do with it -- what to do with it under
5 Rule 4-8.3.
6 Q You didn't fill out a complaint form?
7 A No. My communication to the Bar is this letter of
8 April of 2002 which simply says, "Here is a transcript for
9 your perusal," without editorial comment.
10 Q Are you aware that in your inquiry into the
11 Florida Bar following my letter of July 2nd, the Florida Bar
12 said that I -- if I wanted to file a complaint against you
13 or any other lawyer associated with this action, that I had
14 to go and file a formal complaint, not just respond in a
15 letter?
16 A That is what the letter said.
17 Q Okay. So as you sit here today, are you quite
18 confident that there is not pending against you now, from
19 me, a complaint with the Florida Bar?
20 A Well, all I -- I don't know what you filed lately.
21 But the most recent correspondence I had from Ms. Wichrowski
22 is that if -- if you wanted to convert your allegations in
23 your July 2 letter into a complaint against me or any of the
24 other lawyers, that you would have to do so -- I think the
25 letter said something like you would have to, you know, go
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1 through some -- take an oath or some perjury -- you would
2 have to submit it under oath.
3 Q Okay.
4 A And -- and I don't know whether you have done that
5 or not.
6 THE COURT: And yet, as far as you know, the
7 complaint against Mr. Dandar was instituted with
8 nothing more than a five-sentence letter from you?
9 THE WITNESS: Containing a sworn transcript.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q And that letter was just more bare bones than the
13 motion you filed to disqualify, correct?
14 A Yes, I was not interested in -- in launching an
15 editorial attack on you in that letter. I was interested in
16 doing what Rule 4-8.3 told me I had to do.
17 Q Didn't you file more than just this transcript of
18 April 9?
19 A Well, I -- I sent this. Then you started
20 responding with some fairly nice attacks on me. And so I
21 have responded to those with additional materials.
22 Q And isn't it true that you have -- you have not
23 come forward to discuss -- or to advise the Florida Bar of
24 the meetings that Mr. Minton had with your client?
25 A I haven't been asked to do that. And what I have
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1 submitted is -- is -- you know, I have been given until, I
2 think, the 26th of July to respond to yours of July 2nd,
3 which I intend to do.
4 Q Okay. And isn't it true, sir, that as the Judge
5 pointed out, the April 8 deposition of Mr. Minton had
6 nothing to do at all with the facts to support your motion
7 to disqualify?
8 A I didn't attend the deposition. I didn't read the
9 transcript. So I can't answer the question.
10 Q Okay. Look, I don't know -- I don't know if you
11 want to tell me, but would you agree that as far as the
12 decision-making -- the decision-making on what to do in the
13 breach case and the probate case, you take orders from
14 Mr. Rosen?
15 A No, I would not agree that is how it works. When
16 I am local counsel in a case, it is generally a
17 collaborative effort. We consult. We argue. Sometimes I
18 tell Mr. Rosen he's all wet, what he wants to do is too New
19 Yorky and we need to tone it down. So sometimes he listens
20 to me. Sometimes I listen to him.
21 Q Do you recall ever telling a local, prominent
22 attorney that if your client, the Church of Scientology,
23 ever decided to go after another attorney, that you would
24 withdraw?
25 A I'm sorry, say that again?
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1 Q Do you recall ever telling a local, prominent
2 attorney that if your client, the Church of Scientology,
3 ever decided to attack attorneys, that you would withdraw
4 from representing them?
5 A I don't remember any such conversation.
6 Q Okay.
7 A And I will add this. The decision to send this
8 transcript to the Bar was mine. This is my decision. And I
9 did it based upon what I understood the rule to be, as I
10 verified from -- this was not something my client directed
11 me to do. I did it. I take full responsibility for it.
12 Q So, Mr. Pope, before you sent this complaint in to
13 the Florida Bar, are you saying that you did not
14 investigate --
15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. Objection to the form,
16 "complaint."
17 THE COURT: What?
18 MR. FUGATE: I object to the form of the
19 question when he used the word "complaint."
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q When you sent this letter to the Florida Bar with
23 the April 9 transcript, are you saying that you did not
24 investigate to see if there had been any meetings between
25 Mr. Minton and the Church of Scientology that would cause
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1 him to testify this way?
2 A I knew that there had been meetings between the
3 Church and its representatives and Mr. Minton. And the
4 transcript of the proceedings stood on its own. You know,
5 the Bar -- you know, the way that it works is the Bar looks
6 into these matters. If they determine that something needs
7 to be done, they refer it to a grievance committee which
8 serves as the grand jury. The grievance committee
9 investigates the matter and either finds it is minor
10 misconduct, they don't believe it, they nolle pros it, or
11 they indict and send it to a circuit judge for a trial.
12 Q Mr. Pope, did you know that in the March 28
13 meeting Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen told Mr. Minton that before
14 the Church of Scientology would ever consider settling with
15 him, he had to make the Lisa McPherson case and the Lawrence
16 Wollersheim case in California go away?
17 A I have no knowledge of what was said in those
18 meetings about any of that.
19 Q Have you ever learned about that meeting?
20 A The only -- the only thing I know is that meetings
21 took place.
22 Q Now, you talked about the RTC litigation in Texas.
23 Are you aware that the litigation in Texas arises from a
24 breach of the stipulation entered into in this case not to
25 add parties?
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1 A My understanding of it is it wasn't a stipulation,
2 it was a contract, a full-blown contract between the
3 parties.
4 Q You are not aware of Mr. Lieberman arguing it's --
5 it was a litigation stipulation, or the Judge ruling --
6 A I don't -- you know, I have seen the contract. It
7 looks like a contract, to me. But it was a contract that
8 arose out of this lawsuit.
9 Q Are you aware that Judge Moody entered an order
10 granting the estate the right to sue Mr. Miscavige in his
11 individual capacity?
12 A At this point, I'm not aware of any orders that --
13 THE COURT: Is this discovery in some other
14 lawsuit?
15 MR. DANDAR: I'm just -- Mr. Fugate brought all
16 this up.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Are you aware, Mr. Pope, that Mr. Rosen -- his
19 bill was cut in half by the court in Texas?
20 A I'm not aware of -- of what the Court did, except
21 that the final judgments -- the total is close to $600,000.
22 Q And are you aware that the court in Texas found
23 RTC to be vexatious litigators, as well?
24 A I'm aware that the Court found you and your
25 brother to have engaged in that and entered a sanction
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1 against you of almost $100,000. And I'm aware that no such
2 sanction was entered against RTC.
3 Q You are not aware that the federal judge reduced
4 the bill by over $200,000?
5 A I think the Court probably did cut some time out,
6 but I don't view that as a sanction.
7 Q Okay.
8 A Judges are always cutting lawyers' bills.
9 Q Mr. Pope, when you went to Judge Jenkins for the
10 first time in the Tampa Middle District Court, you were not
11 there to domesticate a federal judgment; you were there to
12 get immediate emergency writs of garnishment against my
13 personal account, my brother's personal account, my law
14 firm's account and Luke Lirot's personal accounts?
15 A I don't remember the word "emergency" being in the
16 matter. As I recall, you file these things, then you take a
17 hearing date that the judge gives you in federal court.
18 And, yes, the original request was for writs of
19 garnishment. And the minute you gave me the paper asserting
20 the 1963 defense, I withdrew them on the record.
21 Q And Judge Jenkins did admonish you and said she
22 was considering entering Rule 11 sanctions against you on
23 her own motion at that hearing, isn't that correct?
24 A I don't recall Judge Jenkins admonishing me. She
25 was -- she was irritated about the amount of time she had
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1 spent preparing for the hearing. And then I came in and
2 withdrew probably half of it.
3 Q You remember her saying "Rule 11 sanctions"? Do
4 you remember that phrase?
5 THE COURT: I hate to ask this, I really do,
6 but why would I care what Ms. Jenkins -- what
7 Magistrate Jenkins did, Judge Jenkins did to
8 Mr. Pope in some very unrelated -- frankly, I
9 wondered why Mr. Fugate was getting into it, I
10 wondered why you got into it. I keep wondering, and
11 it's 25 minutes until 5.
12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it is because you made the
13 statement several times, if we don't refute
14 something, it is admitted.
15 THE COURT: Well, you know, relevance, I also
16 told you-all -- and this is however many days -- and
17 much, much of it is irrelevant. I would say this is
18 part of that.
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
20 THE COURT: Interesting but not relevant.
21 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, you said four suits. There are really five
24 suits, including the wrongful death case, correct? The
25 other four are filed by the Church of Scientology?
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1 A Yes. The question was how many was I involved in.
2 Q Okay.
3 A And I'm not involved in this one except as a
4 witness today.
5 Q Well, you are involved in the new suit you filed
6 for RTC here in Pinellas County?
7 A Which one are you talking about?
8 Q Well, not only are you domesticating the judgment
9 from Texas under the foreign domestication statute, but then
10 you went and filed a brand-new suit against the estate for
11 declaratory relief.
12 A That is required. You have to -- well, under the
13 probate code, as you -- I think you know, you have to file a
14 claim, which I did. And then if you object, I only have a
15 certain number of days to file an action or my claim is
16 gone.
17 So you objected. And I followed the rule of
18 filing the claim. It's pretty simple.
19 MR. DANDAR: Now, Judge, I'll try to go real
20 fast but I just have to respond to some of that.
21 THE COURT: That is fine. We'll finish this
22 up. This is the last witness of the day.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Mr. Pope, you agree that money of the estate is
25 the money of the decedent, not what happens after the
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1 decedent dies? Do you agree with that?
2 THE COURT: I don't even know what you asked.
3 What is this?
4 A I think that is a legal issue that is to be
5 decided as a part of the grand dispute here. I don't -- I
6 don't think I'm capable of answering that question. That is
7 a question the Judge will have to decide.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q All right.
10 THE COURT: What was it? See if I know the
11 answer. What was it?
12 MR. DANDAR: Money of the estate is only money
13 that the decedent had prior to death, not after
14 acquired funds, if there is such --
15 A Just for the record, I do disagree with that
16 statement, but it is not my choice to make, it is going to
17 be decided by a judge.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right.
19 THE COURT: In other words, what you are
20 suggesting is that the estate is the estate of Lisa
21 McPherson? Or the estate of Fannie McPherson? Or
22 whose estate? Lisa McPherson?
23 MR. DANDAR: Lisa McPherson.
24 THE COURT: You are suggesting that whatever
25 moneys or whatever value that estate had was what
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1 she had on the date of death?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
3 THE COURT: And, therefore, if this lawsuit --
4 if there is some recovery in this lawsuit, that
5 would not be money inuring to the estate?
6 MR. DANDAR: No. No. No.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. DANDAR: They are trying to garnish my bank
9 account. They are saying I have estate money
10 because this money from Minton is the estate's
11 money.
12 The Florida law says the estate's money is
13 whatever the decedent had at the time of her death,
14 not what happens after the estate is opened.
15 THE COURT: Well, that would certainly be the
16 position you would want to take. If you said it was
17 the estate's money and they had the right to recover
18 against the estate --
19 MR. DANDAR: Either way. You are right,
20 though. That is a legal issue and --
21 THE COURT: It is. And I don't know the answer
22 to it, either. There you have it. I have never
23 been a probate judge or probate lawyer.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sure you don't want to be
25 one, either.
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1 THE COURT: I don't. I bet I get to answer
2 probate questions before this is done.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Mr. Pope, you said you wanted the estate to file
5 an accounting under seal in Clearwater probate court.
6 How many Scientologists work in the clerk's office
7 in Clearwater?
8 A I have no idea.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I don't know if one even works there.
11 Q Now, Mr. Pope, isn't it true -- you may not know
12 this. Isn't it true your client, the Church of Scientology,
13 already had copies of the UBS check before you set the UBS
14 bank deposition?
15 A That is not true. We got those checks after I
16 cancelled the deposition. I learned a day or two later that
17 we had -- that Mr. Minton, I believe, had been able to get
18 his own bank somehow to get them.
19 Q Did he tell you the name of that bank?
20 A I never talked to Mr. Minton. And I -- I honestly
21 don't remember -- UBS somehow comes into play. But that is
22 about all I can remember.
23 Q You know that UBS is not his bank?
24 A No, I don't. I don't know -- you are asking me
25 questions about which I know nothing.
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1 Q All right. Just say you don't know. Do you know
2 the name of the bank that sent the money to the UBS bank?
3 A Not as I sit here today.
4 Q Now, isn't it true you cancelled the UBS
5 deposition after we filed a motion, and you cancelled it the
6 night before the hearing?
7 A I don't remember. The motion you filed had zip,
8 nothing, to do with the cancellation of the deposition.
9 The deposition was cancelled because in-house
10 lawyers said, "We're going to show up and tell you we can't
11 find the checks." And I'm a firm believer in not wasting
12 time. So that is what I did.
13 Q Did you tell that on the record at the hearing
14 concerning this deposition, that the checks could not be
15 found?
16 A I don't remember what I said at the hearing. I'm
17 sure there is a transcript, though.
18 THE COURT: I thought there wasn't a hearing --
19 I thought there was -- there wasn't a deposition.
20 MR. DANDAR: There was a hearing.
21 THE COURT: Oh, a hearing. I'm sorry.
22 MR. DANDAR: Concerning that deposition.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Now, you filed this transcript with the Florida
25 Bar of the April 9 hearing where the only person that was
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1 permitted to question Mr. Minton was Mr. Rosen and
2 Mr. Howie. Correct?
3 A I don't remember.
4 Q Neither Luke Lirot, who was representing me -- he
5 was not permitted to question Mr. Minton at all concerning
6 his accusations against me. Do you remember that?
7 A No, I don't. But -- I don't. But this was --
8 this was Chapter 1 in several days' worth of hearings, so as
9 I recall there was ample opportunity ultimately afforded to
10 everybody to do what they needed to do in compliance with
11 the notion of basic due process.
12 Q And, Mr. Pope, I want you to assume that your
13 client had copies of the UBS check before you set the notice
14 of deposition of the UBS bank. And if that is true --
15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm just going to
16 object to that because it is not a fair assumption
17 based on his testimony.
18 THE COURT: Well, it -- I would have to ask,
19 first of all, whether Mr. Pope would know anything
20 beyond what you know. In other words, as far as you
21 know --
22 THE WITNESS: I already knew that at the time I
23 cancelled those depositions we did not have copies
24 of the checks. We got them later through
25 Mr. Minton.
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1 THE COURT: You would have had no way of
2 knowing -- there has been an allegation made that --
3 there is an allegation that there is a department
4 within the Church called Office of Special Affairs,
5 that they do investigations of all sorts. If for
6 some -- if in some fashion the Office of Special
7 Affairs had gotten this check and turned it over to
8 someone within the Office of Special Affairs, not to
9 their lawyer, not to you, you, of course, would not
10 have known that.
11 THE WITNESS: I would have not known that. And
12 as I recall, my communications were with Mr. Rosen,
13 who told me some days later that Mr. Minton had been
14 able to get the checks.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, likewise, is a lawyer,
16 as are you.
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 THE COURT: As I said, the allegations here --
19 I'm not saying they are true or not, there are a lot
20 of allegations that fly.
21 One of the allegations is in the Office of
22 Special Affairs, they do a lot of investigations,
23 they have their ways to get information such as bank
24 checks belonging to other banks, moneys, checks,
25 belonging to other people.
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1 Had this occurred, had it been kept internal,
2 you would not have known that?
3 THE WITNESS: I would not necessarily have
4 known it.
5 THE COURT: But your client, obviously, if that
6 were true, didn't disclose that to you; as far as
7 you knew, your client wanted those checks?
8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
9 THE COURT: And you were pursuing them, but
10 when you found out you weren't going to get them,
11 there was no purpose in having a deposition?
12 THE WITNESS: We considered those checks to be
13 key corroborative evidence of whether Mr. Minton was
14 telling the truth.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Where was the perjury concerning the March 2000
17 check?
18 THE COURT: Oh, honestly.
19 MR. DANDAR: I'll withdraw it.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q How did your client get a color copy of a UBS
22 check?
23 A I don't know.
24 Q And when you say Mr. Minton turned it over, you
25 are relying upon what Mr. Rosen told you. Correct?
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1 A I think so. Mr. -- I can't remember. Mr. Minton
2 may have testified about that. I honestly can't remember.
3 Q Did you ever have any knowledge that Mr. Rinder --
4 Michael Rinder -- who is the one that met with Mr. Minton,
5 is the one who turned over the UBS checks to Mr. Rosen?
6 A I have no knowledge of that.
7 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have.
8 MR. FUGATE: I am learning from Mr. Pope. I'll
9 be very quick and not waste any time.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. FUGATE:
13 Q Just so the record is complete, on April 9, that
14 was a proceeding not involving Mr. Dandar, but was it not a
15 sentencing in Mr. Minton's contempt case before Judge Baird?
16 THE COURT: I think the record is clear on
17 that.
18 A I think that is true.
19 THE COURT: I think I asked it myself.
20 MR. FUGATE: Then I saved time. I have no
21 further questions, Judge.
22 THE COURT: I have one. I'm a little confused.
23 And, Mr. Pope, this doesn't involve you. Thank you
24 for coming.
25 (Witness excused.)
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1 THE COURT: I have two Number 274s here. One
2 is an FDLE letter that says "Dear Mr. Fugate." And
3 one is a letter that says "Dear Ms. Bloemendaal."
4 One is 275, one is 274?
5 MR. FUGATE: This should be 274, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Do you think we marked it that
8 way, or --
9 THE COURT: No. This is me. I marked it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
11 THE COURT: These are all my markings and I
12 obviously marked two 274s.
13 I'm tired, I think we had a long day. What is
14 this -- this assortment of books over here?
15 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is going to be a
16 demonstrative --
17 THE COURT: You're not going to ask me to read
18 all of this.
19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm certainly not. The point
20 I'm going to make is how much you would have to
21 read. It's just a demonstrative exhibit. We'll get
22 to it tomorrow.
23 THE COURT: Well, bring a camera and take a
24 picture, because whatever -- whatever it is, we
25 wouldn't be able to describe it adequately. A
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1 picture --
2 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think it would be impossible
3 to describe.
4 THE COURT: I think it is. I am glad to know
5 you are not going to ask me to read all of that
6 between now and --
7 MR. WEINBERG: And the end of your life? How
8 about the end of your life?
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I think if I asked
10 you to do that, you would bar me from the courtroom.
11 THE COURT: I would not be able to.
12 All right, we are adjourned for the day. See
13 you tomorrow at 9~o'clock.
14 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 5:00 p.m.)
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 17th day of July, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
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