KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
Plaintiff,
vs. VOLUME 2
TESTIMONY OF
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG PETER ALEXANDER
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
Defendants.
_______________________________________/
PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief
DATE: June 7, 2002. Afternoon Session
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
St. Petersburg, Florida
BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer
Circuit Judge
REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner
Deputy Official Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida
_________________________________________________
Page 142
APPEARANCES:
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization
Page 143
1 (The afternoon session began at 1:20 p.m.)
2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Dandar, you may
3 continue.
4 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION OF
6 PETER ALEXANDER (RESUMED)
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Mr. Alexander, so you celebrated the closing of
9 the purchase of the building on Fort Harrison that became
10 the offices of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
11 A Right, that's right, the building we own.
12 Q Okay. And at that time were you a board member
13 of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
14 A I -- you know, it hadn't really opened to the
15 public, but it was intended that we would be. I don't
16 know -- at some point, Bob published it on the Internet.
17 But, yes, I think we were talking like we were.
18 Q Did you -- not you, I'm sorry. Did the Lisa
19 McPherson Trust in November, December of '99 have an
20 office?
21 A No.
22 Q And when did it have its first office?
23 A It was Jan- -- well, wait a second. I think that
24 they did construction, but what I remember is moving in
25 there or helping them in November, December, and they moved
Page 144
1 in and set up shop in January, I believe.
2 Q Of 2000?
3 A Yes, I believe it was January of 2000.
4 Q Okay. Did you contribute or participate in the
5 drafting of any of the pamphlets for the Lisa McPherson
6 Trust?
7 A Yes. We had a meeting after the opening of the
8 trust. It was in Stacy's office, Stacy Brooks. And we
9 talked about what the purposes ought to be, what the goals
10 ought to be, of the Lisa McPherson Trust. And we came up
11 with ten points, starting with it was to expose the abusive
12 and deceptive practices of Scientology.
13 Q And who came up with that statement?
14 A That was Bob.
15 Q Bob Minton?
16 A Bob Minton, yes.
17 Q Okay. Did Stacy Brooks contribute to any of the
18 purposes or goals?
19 A Just when -- you know, actually, just when I
20 brought up the lawsuit. I said, "Well, what about
21 supporting litigation?"
22 She said, "No, no. That has to be kept separate.
23 No, we can't have anything to do" -- you know, mix between
24 the Lisa Trust, as it was now called, and the lawsuit --
25 Q Okay.
Page 145
1 A -- business.
2 Q You were there. Was Patricia there?
3 A Yes. It was myself, Patricia Greenway, Stacy
4 Brooks, Jesse Prince, Bob Minton, David Cecere, and Mark
5 Bunker.
6 Q Was I there?
7 A No.
8 Q Was I contacted in any way to contribute to the
9 purposes of the Lisa McPherson Trust?
10 A No. You had nothing to do with it.
11 Q What about Dell Liebreich?
12 A No. I think -- the only thing that I remember of
13 as far as Dell Liebreich is that, when we had the little
14 opening party, Bob called her on the phone in our presence.
15 But it was just a social call just to let her know that the
16 office was opened.
17 Q Okay. In that call, did he ask Dell Liebreich to
18 serve on the board of directors?
19 A I don't remember if it was then or on another
20 occasion, but she did serve on the board.
21 Q And did Dell Liebreich, to your knowledge,
22 participate in directing, controlling, contributing to the
23 Lisa McPherson Trust?
24 A No, no, no. No one on the board that I knew
25 actually did anything like that.
Page 146
1 Q Did I have any direct, indirect control,
2 contribution, input in the activities or purposes of the
3 Lisa McPherson Trust?
4 A Not that I ever saw, no.
5 Q How long were you involved with the Lisa
6 McPherson Trust?
7 A From the inception, which, you know, we started
8 talking about it -- it didn't have that name at first, but
9 we started talking about it back in August. And then it
10 sort of coalesced into a group, and we opened the office in
11 January of 2000 and -- thereabouts, and then all the way
12 through December of 2000. And then we were kicked off the
13 board.
14 Q So about 14 months?
15 A Yes. It was only really opened to the public for
16 like about a year when we were there.
17 Q Okay. And during the year that you were a member
18 of the board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust, what
19 involvement, if any, did I have?
20 A None that I saw.
21 Q Did you know that I incorporated the corporation
22 known as the Lisa McPherson Trust?
23 A I have some vague memory of it, but, you know,
24 that's just a standard thing you get a lawyer to do. I
25 didn't see you around there much.
Page 147
1 Q Did the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust ever
2 change?
3 A No.
4 Q Did the Lisa McPherson Trust engage in any type
5 of activity to support the Lisa McPherson wrongful death
6 case?
7 A Not that I know of. It was supposed to be
8 separate.
9 Q Did you ever hear Bob Minton talk about his --
10 the money that he gave me in reference to the wrongful
11 death case?
12 A Yes, I heard him talk about that on a couple of
13 occasions.
14 Q Which is the first time you can recall?
15 A The first time that I can recall was about -- it
16 might have been like the first week of May of 2000. And I
17 was talking to him on the phone, and he -- he brought it
18 up.
19 And he said: "You know, I'm going to send Ken
20 one more check, but that's the last check he's going to get
21 because I don't like the way he's handling the lawsuit.
22 And I don't have anything to say about it, and I'm paying
23 for it."
24 So it sounded like he changed his mind from the
25 first time I talked to him about it.
Page 148
1 Q Did he use any particular language when he talked
2 about this check?
3 A Yes, he did say something funny. I always
4 remember this. He said, "I'm going to cause a check to be
5 sent."
6 I thought: "What are you talking about? Why
7 didn't he just say he's going to send a check?"
8 Q So instead of saying, "I'm going to send a
9 check," he said, "I'm going to cause a check --"
10 A "Going to cause a check." I remember that's what
11 stood out in the conversation. That's why I remember it.
12 You know, when you hear things that are odd like that, you
13 think, "What's up with that?"
14 Q This is the first week of May 2000?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you ask him what he meant by that strange
17 statement?
18 A No. You know, first of all, my business with him
19 had to do with the film. And I like to stick to business,
20 and so I didn't get into it.
21 Q All right. So this was the second time, at
22 least, you heard him say, "I don't like the way he's
23 running the case"?
24 A No. That was the first time I heard him say
25 that.
Page 149
1 Q Oh.
2 A It was the second time that we talked about the
3 fact that he was funding the case, because the first time
4 was back in November of '99, at that meeting, dinner.
5 Q But is it in May of 2000 when he told you, "I
6 don't get to know what's going on"?
7 A Yes, that's right.
8 Q Was that the first time he said that?
9 A No. That was the second time he said that.
10 Q I'm sorry, I got confused myself.
11 A Okay.
12 Q All right. Let's talk about the movie, since you
13 just mentioned it.
14 A Okay.
15 Q The movie is called The Profit, right?
16 A Right.
17 Q Is that the first movie that you've ever been
18 involved with?
19 A No. You know, I started out in college. And I
20 think I kind of went through my background. And I wrote a
21 film script. And when I was at Universal, my title was
22 executive producer. I would step in and have to do parts
23 of the film. So between -- it was the first full-length
24 feature film I had directed, though.
25 Q Okay.
Page 150
1 A But I had various experiences as producer or
2 writer.
3 Q You've written scripts before this one?
4 A Yes, yes.
5 Q Who wrote the script to the movie The Profit?
6 A I did.
7 Q Tell us how that came about.
8 A Well, actually, I was talking to my dad on my
9 birthday, November the 6th, 1999. And he was asking me,
10 well, what I wanted to do next. And I was kind of mumbling
11 about this, that, and the other thing.
12 My dad said: "Why don't you write something
13 about cults? Why don't you make a film?"
14 My dad had been an actor. He was an actor in
15 films when he was a kid, so he had some background in
16 Hollywood too.
17 So he said: "Yes, you know, you ought to try a
18 film, try to write -- you know, you've done that. Write a
19 script, see if you can do something with that."
20 I said, "You know, Dad, that's a heck of an
21 idea."
22 So I started researching what I was going to
23 write about. And I researched a number of cults, the
24 Moonies, the Scientologists, Allister Crawley (phonetic)
25 and the OTO. And interestingly, I did extensive research
Page 151
1 on this guy nobody had ever heard of, Osama bin Laden,
2 because I was fascinated with these Muslim/Islamic
3 fundamental cults.
4 But the main thing that I found was that -- when
5 I was going through there, I found one book. It wasn't
6 actually a book. It was only a chapter of a book on the
7 Internet, and that was really the basis of the through-put
8 of the film. And it was Chapter 22 of a book which is
9 called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, a
10 study of brainwashing in Communist China, by Professor
11 Robert J. Lifton, L-i-f-t-o-n.
12 And the reason that was such a striking book to
13 me was the thing I knew most about was Scientology, and
14 when I read Professor Lifton's analysis of what the
15 Communist Chinese and other totalist organizations did to
16 people -- and this was basically a study of people who had
17 been brainwashed by the Communist Chinese in the Great
18 Cultural Revolution, where they made them, you know,
19 basically into robots.
20 And the points that Professor Lifton raised, it
21 was like -- you know, you just go down those points, it was
22 like reading an L. Ron Hubbard policy manual. I had
23 never -- I had never -- every single thing that I read in
24 there, and particularly his main description, which was
25 Chapter 22, of what constituted a cult was in Scientology.
Page 152
1 I'd go, "Whoa, this is incredible."
2 So I used that. And then I used extensive
3 research. And I wrote the script; started in November.
4 And I -- I had a draft complete by middle of January 2000.
5 Q How did Mr. Minton get involved in this?
6 A Well, he was the second person I brought the
7 script to. And I was looking for an investor, so I met
8 with him. I called him up and said, "Hey, I've got
9 something for you."
10 So he was a friend of mine, so I took it over
11 there to meet him in Clearwater at the Bombay Bicycle Club.
12 We had lunch there. And I had the script and I -- you
13 know, I had story boards, which are illustrations of what
14 various scenes would look like, and I had the budget.
15 And I just went through it. He said, "This
16 sounds great, this sounds great."
17 After I went through the script, Patricia
18 Greenway joined us. I think she had been shopping or
19 something, if I remember. But she wasn't there at first.
20 And then she joined us, and then she kind of cross-examined
21 Bob and asked him, "Sure you want to do this, now?" you
22 know.
23 And he said, "No, I want to do it, and I want to
24 do the whole thing."
25 And that surprised me, because I remember
Page 153
1 thinking, "Well, I'll get Bob to put up part of the money,
2 and I'll get somebody else to put up the other part of the
3 money." But he wanted to do the whole thing. So I said:
4 "Okay. Deal. Let's go."
5 Q Patricia tried to actually talk him out of it?
6 A Yes, tried to talk him out of it. That's
7 Patricia.
8 Q Bob was your second choice?
9 A Oh, yes.
10 Q So there was somebody else you went to --
11 A Yes.
12 Q -- to see if they would invest?
13 A Yes. And they thought it was too controversial.
14 Q Did that person have anything to do with
15 Scientology?
16 A No.
17 Q Did that person have anything to do with the Lisa
18 McPherson Trust wrongful death case?
19 A No. They were a group of executives who I know
20 from show business.
21 Q Okay.
22 A They invest separately.
23 Q Pardon me?
24 A They invest separately, on the side, from their
25 main jobs.
Page 154
1 Q Okay. So when Bob Minton said, "I'm going to --
2 I'm going to finance the whole movie --"
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- he already knew from you right then and there
5 how much that was estimated to be?
6 A Right. I estimated it. I am competent to do
7 that.
8 Q Okay. You've done that before?
9 A Yes, many times.
10 Q All right. And did that include money for you?
11 A Yes. There was money for the script, and then,
12 you know, I was paid a salary as a producer.
13 Q And was the money for the script the going rate
14 in the industry?
15 A No. I -- the money for the script was $50,000.
16 The Writers Guild minimum was at that time I think $63,000.
17 Q Okay. And the money that you had in the budget
18 to charge for your role as the producer or director?
19 A Was my same salary I was bringing home at the
20 Totally Fun Company previously.
21 Q And you did that because you were going to have
22 to devote all your time to the movie when it started?
23 A Right. Once that movie began, it was just
24 all-consuming, all-consuming.
25 Q Now, when did you and Mr. Minton enter into a
Page 155
1 formal agreement?
2 A That was the 7th of February. I've had an
3 opportunity to look at that contract several times, so I
4 remember that date, 7th of February, 2000.
5 Q And whose idea was it to do a formal written
6 agreement?
7 A It was mine.
8 Q Why is that?
9 A Well, because you can't do a deal without a
10 contract.
11 Q And did Mr. Minton get a lawyer to look at the
12 contract?
13 A I don't know what he did on his end. I had my
14 Hollywood attorney draft it up and send it to him. He
15 didn't move on it. And I called him back, and he said it
16 was too complicated and too long. So we had the contract
17 cut down.
18 Q Did that sound like to you that he had retained a
19 lawyer to look at a contract?
20 A It didn't sound like it. He didn't mention that
21 he had had a lawyer review it. He just said it was too
22 long and too complicated.
23 Q So you reduced it?
24 A Yes. It was 47 pages long, and I think it ended
25 up being 27 pages. We chopped out 20 pages.
Page 156
1 Q Okay. And do you know if he read the short
2 version?
3 A I don't know. He signed it.
4 Q Okay.
5 A I don't know if he read it.
6 Q And you signed it?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. Now --
9 A And I can't say that I read it that closely.
10 Q Did -- are you the sole writer of the script?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Was there any talk from Mr. Minton that he wanted
13 to use the script, this movie, to attack Scientology?
14 A No.
15 Q Was there any talk that he wanted to use this
16 movie to influence the jury pool in the wrongful death case
17 of Lisa McPherson?
18 A That's ridiculous. Well -- and I'll tell you
19 why. You know, in January of 2000 -- let me compose myself
20 here.
21 The trial, we all knew, was scheduled to be held
22 in Hillsborough county in June of 2000. And the trial was
23 going to start before a jury in June of 2000. Even the
24 optimistic contract schedule didn't call for the film to be
25 done until the 30th of October of 2000. So in any event,
Page 157
1 the film would have been done after, you know, the trial
2 had been held.
3 And secondly, no one -- no one -- is going to
4 make a film to influence some lawsuit in some county in one
5 state. You don't -- you just don't do that. That's like
6 insane.
7 Q How much did that film cost?
8 A It was 2 million -- 2.4 million, yes.
9 Q When did the film start production?
10 A Actually, it started shooting on the 7th of
11 August.
12 Q Okay. Do you recall your deposition being taken
13 in this matter, the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case, in
14 April of 2000?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Like two months before trial?
17 A Yes. Yes, it was taken over in Tampa, in one of
18 the office buildings there.
19 Q In the year 2000, were you followed by anyone
20 from the Church of Scientology?
21 A Yes. I learned this from the process server who
22 brought me the summons to that deposition. And I said --
23 he said, "I've been -- I've been following you for some
24 time."
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. This
Page 158
1 is hearsay.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Okay. As a result of that conversation --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- what impression were you left with?
7 A Okay. I learned that there was a guy in a
8 white --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Object --
10 THE COURT: Is this something you saw?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, something I saw, ma'am,
12 yes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What he saw. But he said
14 what was his impression based on a conversation.
15 THE COURT: True. He can talk about what he
16 saw.
17 A I saw a guy in a white Chevrolet Astro van, who
18 looked kind of like Kenny Rogers -- we called him Kenny
19 Rogers -- that had been identified with his tag number.
20 And so I knew who it was. Once I saw this guy, I saw that
21 he was following me everywhere.
22 There was another guy who -- you know, we have
23 nicknames for these guys because we don't know what their
24 real names are. I called him Slim Pickens because he
25 looked like that movie character. And he had a green Dodge
Page 159
1 compact and -- two of them.
2 And then there was a third person that would move
3 in and out. But those were the two steady guys. And they
4 tailed me, oh, gosh, for a month or two beyond that point.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q After your deposition?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And was there any interference with your
9 production of the movie The Profit?
10 A Oh, yes. Oh, yes. The first time was we were
11 shooting at a place in Tampa, which is a theater, and it's
12 called the Friday Morning Musicale Club. And we were
13 shooting a scene. And two Scientologists showed up, and
14 they were passing out fliers. And the fliers indicated
15 that the crew should quit the film because Patricia
16 Greenway and I, it was intimated in this flier, were
17 seasoned KKK members and that this was hateful.
18 And so they tried to pass this out to the various
19 crew members on the film, of which there were quite a few,
20 and talked to everybody that they could, talked to all the
21 extras and talked to all the people and tried to get them
22 to quit. That was the first occasion.
23 Q Okay. I'm going to hand up in a lump sum here
24 all of these and have you identify them as quickly as we
25 can.
Page 160
1 A Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing counsel 81 to 87,
3 Plaintiff's exhibits. I'm going to hand to the
4 witness the same stack.
5 THE WITNESS: Okay.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Let's start at -- all right. Why don't you count
8 that up and see. Look at the bottom and announce what
9 exhibit --
10 A Okay.
11 Q -- you have in your hand.
12 A This is Exhibit 83. "I've never been to Nigeria.
13 It was just a business deal, Robert Minton."
14 Blood money is financing his propaganda, it says
15 at the bottom.
16 Q These were handed out while you were trying to
17 shoot a movie?
18 A Yes, yes. That was Exhibit 83. This is Exhibit
19 82, "Children in Nigeria may be dead because of the dirty
20 money used to finance this propaganda." That's Exhibit 82,
21 that one.
22 MR. DANDAR: Wait a minute. Hold on. I've
23 got to get the Judge copies here.
24 THE WITNESS: Okay, cool.
25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handing you 80, 81,
Page 161
1 and 83. And I'm going to try to find the others here.
2 I apologize if I'm not giving you -- I
3 already gave you that. There you go.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Are you offering those?
5 MR. DANDAR: Let me get the clerk -- I
6 thought they were already marked.
7 THE COURT: I think -- I think I'm missing
8 something.
9 MR. DANDAR: You may be. Which one?
10 MR. WEINBERG: How many are there?
11 THE COURT: I have 80, 81, 82, 83, and then
12 I go to 86.
13 MR. WEINBERG: All I got was 80, 81, 86, and
14 87.
15 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here's 87, Judge.
16 THE COURT: I have 87.
17 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
18 THE COURT: I don't have 84 and 85, if there
19 is an 84 and 85.
20 MR. WEINBERG: And I don't have 82, if there
21 was an 82, which I think you're saying you have,
22 right, Judge?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: I have 80, 81, 82, 83, 86, 87.
25 THE COURT: I've got a couple blanks in
Page 162
1 here.
2 (It was agreed that this discussion
3 regarding exhibits would be off the record
4 and need not be transcribed.)
5 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing to the clerk 80,
6 81, 82, 83, 84, 86, and 87.
7 THE COURT: And, Madam Clerk, show 85
8 missing. Just show it no exhibit, I guess, so we
9 don't all start wondering one day where in the world
10 it is.
11 I don't know why we don't make 86 "85" and
12 87 "86." Or is that because you have other premarked
13 things?
14 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, that's not because of
15 that.
16 MR. WEINBERG: That would make sense, it
17 seems.
18 THE COURT: Well, why don't we do that?
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Because all the copies
20 are already marked.
21 MR. WEINBERG: That's okay.
22 THE COURT: We can just scratch them.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
24 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, make what is 86
25 "85."
Page 163
1 THE CLERK: Okay.
2 THE COURT: And make what's 87 "86." And
3 then your next exhibit will be 87. Now we don't have
4 anything missing.
5 MR. DANDAR: All right.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q So, Mr. Alexander, can you identify Exhibit 80?
8 A Yes. This was the first one that I saw, as a
9 matter of fact, on that first day of the Friday Morning
10 Musicale Club.
11 Q And who was distributing that?
12 A Two Scientologists, one named Richard -- I can't
13 remember his last name, kind of a big, heavy-set guy, and
14 one smaller gentleman. He looked either Latin or maybe
15 Filipino, who was there.
16 Q And who were they distributing this to?
17 A The cast, the crew, passersby.
18 Q And how do you know they were Scientologists?
19 A Richard identified himself as such.
20 Q Did he say what office he was from?
21 A He did not say, no.
22 Q Okay. And what about exhibits -- the rest of the
23 exhibits that are fliers, 82, 83, 84?
24 A Well, these all look like things -- yes, these
25 are all things that were passed out.
Page 164
1 Q And were they passed out the same day?
2 A No. Each day they would come back with a new
3 flier.
4 Q Okay. Did you change the numbers?
5 A It's now 85. I got it.
6 Q Go ahead and write that so I don't get confused
7 and you don't.
8 A Okay.
9 Q Look at 85.
10 A All right.
11 Q How did you get a copy of that?
12 A It came in the mail from our insurance carriers.
13 And they had received this anonymously with postage from,
14 as I recall, St. Petersburg. And it wasn't signed or
15 anything. And it was in reference to the film The Profit.
16 And it was an attempt to threaten or intimidate them so
17 that they would not get liability insurance for us.
18 Q And you needed that for your permit, correct?
19 A Right. Well, we needed basically what they call
20 errors and omissions or defamation insurance just to be
21 sure that, you know, the script didn't have anything
22 libelous in it or anything like that. You want to have an
23 insurance carrier verify that, you know, you've done the
24 right thing.
25 Q Were you able to get insurance?
Page 165
1 A Yes.
2 Q So they looked at the script?
3 A They looked at the script, and they found that
4 there was nothing defamatory about it.
5 Q What about 86? What's that?
6 A Okay.
7 THE COURT: Was this sent to the actual
8 person that you got insurance from or the person you
9 were trying to get insurance from?
10 THE WITNESS: That is just a broker,
11 Comegies (phonetic). They're the broker, and they go
12 out and place the insurance with different companies.
13 A Okay. This is 86, what is now 86. It's a letter
14 that was sent out to all of the employees. They somehow
15 got a list of all the employees on the film. And each
16 employee got a letter like this.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q And what is that letter attempting to do?
19 A Again, it is attempting to get them to quit and
20 not work on the film.
21 THE COURT: Was this sent to their homes?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, home address. They had
23 the home address of everybody. They followed a couple
24 of the young ladies home, and that really got us upset
25 because these are -- you know, they always pick on the
Page 166
1 single ladies. And that frightened them.
2 One of them was my assistant, Kate, and she
3 was kind of freaked out about that. The
4 Scientologists showed up on her door. And another was
5 one of the costuming assistants, a lady named Jade.
6 So they were basically, apparently, taking
7 down people's license tags and then -- and/or
8 following them home and/or getting their home
9 information from driver's license records or other
10 sources.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q What effect --
13 A They had some source.
14 Q What effect did this have on your cast and
15 employees?
16 A Varying effects. Some people -- like when the
17 first one came and it said about me being in the KKK, well,
18 pretty much everybody on the crew knew that my mother is
19 Jewish, so that actually got a laugh.
20 And -- however, when they started following those
21 two young ladies home, that was upsetting to them. And
22 they came to us and they said they were afraid.
23 Q And did they do anything because of that?
24 A Yes. We asked for an injunction to stop the
25 Foundation for Religious Tolerance, which was a group that
Page 167
1 we understood was created by a Scientologist named Mary
2 Demoss. And we asked for an injunction to prevent them
3 from their tortious interference with our business, but
4 that was not granted.
5 Q And you had John Merrett representing you?
6 A Yes, we did.
7 Q And what is your understanding of why the
8 injunction was not granted?
9 A I never understood what the judge's ruling was,
10 quite frankly. He just said denied.
11 Q Do you know if it had anything to do with the
12 competency of John Merrett's pleadings?
13 THE COURT: How would he know that?
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q I mean if you know.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
17 THE COURT: He wouldn't know.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right.
19 THE COURT: You could never -- unless the
20 judge wrote in an order, "I'm denying it because the
21 lawyer is incompetent," he really wouldn't know that.
22 THE WITNESS: He didn't say that. He just
23 said denied.
24 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm not saying that
25 he was. I'm just saying if he knew anything. Okay.
Page 168
1 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know that
2 Mr. Merrett is an incompetent lawyer.
3 MR. DANDAR: No. I say I'm not saying that.
4 THE COURT: Right.
5 MR. DANDAR: Correct.
6 THE COURT: He seemed like a very bright
7 fellow. He uses big words.
8 MR. DANDAR: He comes up with some dillies.
9 THE COURT: He does --
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Now, during this --
12 THE COURT: I know that he thinks an
13 order -- you have to look real carefully to see what
14 they say. If they don't say exactly what he thinks,
15 it's all right for him to tote off evidence. I know
16 he thinks that.
17 MR. DANDAR: I have no comment to that.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Did Mr. Minton get involved in the production of
20 the movie?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, before we
22 go there, I'm sure at some point Mr. Dandar is going
23 to offer these into --
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- evidence.
Page 169
1 THE COURT: Why doesn't he offer them now?
2 MR. DANDAR: Any objection?
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Why?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Relevance, for
7 one.
8 THE COURT: Well, that'll be overruled.
9 MR. WEINBERG: And secondly, what he's
10 talking -- I mean, the client -- it's very easy to say
11 there were a couple of Catholics that were standing
12 outside my -- my place of business protesting and then
13 try to offer that against the Catholic Church.
14 And in this case, for example, the
15 Foundation for Religious Tolerance apparently is an
16 organization created by this woman that drafted the
17 last letter, which is 86, Mary Demoss. She's not a
18 staff member of Flag or the Church of Scientology.
19 She's a public, just like Mr. Alexander was. She is
20 a, quote, Scientologist, just as Mr. Dandar says he's
21 a Catholic.
22 And because she decided and her organization
23 decided to distribute information, that doesn't make
24 it admissible against the Flag Service Organization,
25 which is the -- which is the defendant in this case.
Page 170
1 And specifically, if you look at this stuff
2 here, most of them have "Foundation for Religious
3 Tolerance" on them. Some don't have anything on them.
4 There was no suggestion that these two folks that you
5 identified, Mr. Alexander identified, as
6 Scientologists were staff members.
7 And then there's one fax here that was sent
8 to an insurance company that doesn't have any -- any
9 indication on it that it was sent from Flag Services
10 Organization.
11 So my objection is relevance plus -- what's
12 the legal objection, there's nothing on these
13 documents that would -- that would, in my opinion, be
14 admissible as to the client in this case, which is the
15 Church of Scientology Flag Service Org.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Mr. Alexander, do you know who Mary Demoss is?
19 A Yes. She is a public member of Scientology.
20 However, I observed that there was a link between her and
21 the private investigators who followed us routinely.
22 On one particular day when we were shooting at
23 the Tampa Yacht Club, which is at the end of Davis Island,
24 we observed -- I observed directly, too, and Mike Croates,
25 who worked for me, observed five more and filmed them,
Page 171
1 private investigators, all of whom he recognized as being
2 private investigators. And we had videotape of them.
3 One of them was a guy from the Church of
4 Scientology -- one of them was a guy named Danny Ortero.
5 Now, Danny -- then, okay, that happened I would say in late
6 August. When we were filming in September, I observed
7 Danny Otero, who is a gentleman who is about 5'7". He has
8 thinning white hair. And he was driving a red, big
9 four-door American sedan.
10 And he showed up and parked his car in front of
11 our building and then went over to -- and that's how I
12 noticed it -- Mary Demoss and Richard Hurst -- that was the
13 other gentleman's name, Richard Hurst -- were there.
14 THE COURT: Those were the two passing them
15 out?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. On that particular date,
17 it was Mary Demoss and Richard Hurst.
18 THE COURT: Is he a member of the Church of
19 Scientology?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. He's the gentleman who
21 appeared the first day when we were at the Friday
22 Morning Musicale.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Can we just identify him as a
24 public member and not a staff member?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
Page 172
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Is your name Weinberg,
2 sir?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Weinberg. So --
5 THE COURT: These investigators were people
6 that you knew were hired by the Church?
7 THE WITNESS: Right. We had been served
8 summons by Danny Otero before, and he has been noted
9 as working for Scientology -- for Scientology. And so
10 when I observed him going up to Mary Demoss and
11 Richard Hurst and they were driving a 4x4, I thought:
12 "Well, there's a link. He's like bird-dogging them."
13 MR. DANDAR: Danny Otero is a former Tampa
14 police officer who sat in my trials in Tampa recently,
15 taking copious notes of everything that was going on
16 in the trial that had nothing to do with the Church of
17 Scientology, that I was the attorney for the
18 plaintiff.
19 THE COURT: He's an investigator hired by
20 the Church of Scientology?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Flag?
23 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Mr. Alexander, isn't it true --
Page 173
1 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, with all due respect,
2 I don't know who Danny Otero is. It's possible that
3 the Church, Flag, has hired him. I don't know how
4 Mr. Dandar would know.
5 THE COURT: If he's not, you can put one of
6 your folks up there to say or not.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, I don't know if he is
8 or not, but I don't know how Mr. Dandar would know.
9 I've never heard the name before it came out of
10 Mr. Alexander's mouth.
11 THE COURT: You know what? There may be a
12 lot of things that you don't know that go on in other
13 cases, other things.
14 MR. WEINBERG: That's possible.
15 THE COURT: There may be reasons why you
16 don't know what went on up in New York, you don't know
17 what went on in Clearwater. I don't know. I suspect
18 you don't know everything. He doesn't, he doesn't,
19 but there's enough of a connection to let this in
20 through this hearing.
21 MR. WEINBERG: My comment was, I don't know
22 how Mr. Dandar can say that he knows, and his --
23 THE COURT: I've heard the name before. In
24 some hearing I've had, I've heard that name.
25 MR. DANDAR: Your trial? It could have been
Page 174
1 your trial, because my brother and I were at it, here
2 in St. Petersburg. Another one in Tampa in front of
3 Judge --
4 THE COURT: No, no. I mean I've heard the
5 name of that investigator before.
6 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
7 THE COURT: I don't know where; I don't know
8 how. So I just assumed maybe it was in connection to
9 this case.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I never used him. I never
11 heard the name. But it's possible that he was used.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Alexander, isn't it true that Mr. Moxon
14 represented the private investigators that you just
15 described at the injunction hearing before Judge --
16 A Yes.
17 Q Either the judge in Tampa or Judge Penick. Which
18 one?
19 A He represented the Foundation for Religious
20 Tolerance, Mary Demoss, in the injunction hearing that we
21 had in Tampa before Judge Arnold, actually.
22 Q And isn't Mary Demoss a volunteer for OSA?
23 A I believe that she is from her activities, but I
24 don't know for sure.
25 Q Okay. And what about the OT Committee? What's
Page 175
1 that?
2 A Well, the OT Committee is a group of dedicated
3 Scientology public members who go and do --
4 THE COURT: Can you tell me what "OT" means?
5 THE WITNESS: Operating thetan. I have to
6 give a little explanation.
7 THE COURT: Actually, I know what a thetan
8 is, and so I guess if "operating" carries its
9 natural --
10 THE WITNESS: It means that you're operating
11 as a spiritual being, independent of your body, and
12 that you actually have that power.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay. So --
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. So go back to what
16 you started.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q What is the OT Committee?
20 A The OT Committee is a group of dedicated
21 Scientologists who are there to further the goals of
22 Scientology in the Clearwater area. That's the one I'm
23 familiar with.
24 Q All right. And is Mary Demoss part of that?
25 A Yes, I believe she is. She identified herself
Page 176
1 saying that she was on the OT Committee. And so did
2 Richard Hurst, come to think of it. Yes, he said the same
3 thing.
4 Q How do you know, if you do, that they came to
5 know you were doing this movie and where you were?
6 A We had an employee who we had to fire for theft.
7 And when he left, he was disgruntled, and he knew that --
8 where the film company was going to be working. And he had
9 the schedule of all the employees' names and such, so I
10 suspect it was him.
11 Q Now, did Bob Minton ever get involved in the
12 production of this movie outside of just sending you money?
13 A No. It was very odd. He -- Bob seemed to have
14 no interest in it.
15 Q Did he change anything in the movie?
16 A No, never. He wouldn't even come and look at the
17 dailies and things that we filmed. He did it on the day
18 when he was in the movie, where he had a little bit part.
19 But other than that, no.
20 Q And how did he -- what did you observe of him
21 when he had a bit part in the movie?
22 A He came over and looked at a few dailies and then
23 he had that bit part. He was having fun. It was, you
24 know -- it was good for him. He liked it. You know, that
25 was basically -- it's a typical thing that you do in the
Page 177
1 film business. It's a perk that the person who put up the
2 money or their friends get little bit parts if they can
3 act. And actually, Bob did a fine job, and so did Stacy.
4 Q Did I have a bit part?
5 A Yes, you did.
6 Q And how did I get involved?
7 A I saw you one day. And I think I just looked at
8 you and I said: "You know what? You look like an FBI
9 agent to me." I think that was it, something like that. I
10 said: "Do you want -- do you want a little bit part? I
11 think you might be able to be Agent Sanders."
12 And you said, "Yes, sure, I'd like that."
13 Q Okay. And did I have any input in the movie?
14 A No.
15 Q Other than this bit part?
16 A No.
17 Q Did I tell you how to do things to try to rouse
18 up the public against the Church of Scientology?
19 A No. I didn't even know you that well at the
20 time.
21 Q Did Mr. Minton ever give you any checks that you
22 looked at and kind of wondered why he gave you a check like
23 that?
24 A He gave me a number of checks. I don't think I
25 really questioned them a lot, no. I can't say that I did.
Page 178
1 Q Did you ever get checks that you knew somehow, in
2 some way, came from Mr. Minton but he didn't mail it to you
3 or deliver it to you?
4 A Yes. The last -- I think it was the last two
5 checks. I'm certain of the last one -- but I think it
6 might have been the last two -- I picked up from Stacy
7 Brooks herself. And that was the check -- it was about
8 October, I think, of --
9 Q What year?
10 A 2000. And then the last one was like in April of
11 2001, I would say.
12 Q And that came from Stacy Brooks?
13 A Yes. Yes, she had the envelope.
14 Q And were these checks that were written that
15 didn't have Mr. Minton's name on it?
16 A No, they didn't have Mr. Minton's name on them.
17 Q But Stacy Brooks handed them to you?
18 A Right.
19 Q Did she say, "This is from Mr. Minton"?
20 A No. She just said, "I have something for you."
21 Q Okay. Did Patricia Greenway ever handle these
22 checks?
23 A No.
24 Q How did they get handled then after you got them?
25 A Well, when you get a big check -- I mean,
Page 179
1 normally we get wire transfers for large amounts. But when
2 we get a big actual check, either I go right over to the
3 bank and put it in myself or I would have given it to our
4 accountant, Brian. And if he said he had something else to
5 do, I would say: "No. You don't. Go take this to the
6 bank now."
7 Q What was Patricia Greenway's role in this movie?
8 A She was producer. She was actually line
9 producer, they call it, and she was responsible for getting
10 things done and controlling the costs for the movie, per
11 the budget that I had established.
12 Q Why isn't her name on the contract with
13 Mr. Minton and yourself?
14 A She wasn't a party.
15 Q Is she an employee then?
16 A Yes, she's an employee.
17 Q Did you ever tell Patricia how much the checks
18 were when they came in?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever advertise for this movie --
21 A Yes.
22 Q -- when it was finished?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q Did you ever use the word "Scientology" in your
25 ad?
Page 180
1 A No.
2 Q Did the Church of Scientology ever make a public
3 statement about whether or not this had anything to do with
4 Scientology?
5 A Yes. Ben Shaw was quoted in the newspapers, on
6 television, and we actually got a copy of a fax that they
7 sent over. And it said, "This movie has nothing to do with
8 Scientology."
9 Q Did you do a survey of the public --
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Did you say you had
11 that or that's just testimony?
12 MR. DANDAR: That's just testimony.
13 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: Again, if you want it --
15 THE COURT: No, no. I just -- I thought --
16 I heard papers rattling, and I guess I just thought it
17 was coming.
18 MR. DANDAR: Oh, we do have it, sorry.
19 THE COURT: You can keep going.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay. Did you ever -- where did you show the
22 movie to the public?
23 A To the public, we did a test screening in
24 Clearwater at the movie theater on U.S. 19.
25 Q When was that?
Page 181
1 A Started August 24th, and it ran for eight weeks.
2 Q What year?
3 A Of 2001.
4 Q And what -- did you do a survey of the public's
5 reaction?
6 A Yes.
7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, for eight weeks
8 beginning when?
9 THE WITNESS: August 24th, 2001.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
11 A Yes. I was familiar, because when I was vice
12 president of entertainment on the tour, I would get all the
13 surveys of all the movies that we did so we could see what
14 might end up being a good tour attraction. So basically I
15 just took the questions off the Universal Studio tour
16 survey. And we passed those out to the -- that was the
17 whole purpose, really, of the screening, just to see what
18 people thought of the film.
19 THE COURT: I don't know what that is, a
20 screening.
21 THE WITNESS: A screening is, you know,
22 basically -- we didn't -- we had the -- the desire and
23 the intention just to get members of the general
24 public to come in and watch the film so we could hand
25 them a survey and say, "What did you think of that?"
Page 182
1 And then they would fill out the survey and hand it to
2 us. It's called an exit survey.
3 THE COURT: Is the screening done before a
4 movie is finished so that changes can be made --
5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 THE COURT: -- if you get certain responses?
7 THE WITNESS: Right. You know, I was the
8 director of the movie. I knew it was a little long.
9 So it had some slow parts, so I wanted to watch the
10 audience reaction, see what the surveys said so we
11 would know how to cut it down. So that was the
12 purpose of running it.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Let me show you what's marked as Plaintiff's
15 Exhibit 87. I only have the one copy, and we'll make
16 copies.
17 A Okay.
18 Q Just identify what that is.
19 A That's a fax of the logo with the Church of
20 Scientology Flag Service Organization. And then the second
21 page is this fax that we were given a copy of from
22 Channel 28, which says:
23 "The movie has nothing to do with us. That
24 was what the producers are saying. We are not
25 interested. No one is interested. They are
Page 183
1 paranoid. They are telling lies that are nothing
2 but publicity stunts to manufacture interest in a
3 very bad movie that no one is interested in. I
4 have some suggested names for this movie: No
5 Hope for Profit, A Lack of Profit, The
6 Nonprofit."
7 THE COURT: That was -- those were quotes
8 from whom?
9 THE WITNESS: I think they were from
10 Mr. Shaw's office, but not directly from Mr. Shaw.
11 MR. DANDAR: Should I leave this here or
12 have it marked first and then I'll make copies of it?
13 THE COURT: Any objection to this being
14 introduced?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Since I haven't seen it . . .
16 THE COURT: All right. Oooh.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I won't ask you to hold it
18 out any more.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. WEINBERG: You're in a lot of trouble if
21 it's hurting when you hold a piece of paper.
22 THE COURT: It's just catching when I move
23 it a certain way.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. That's fine. I just
25 wanted to see it.
Page 184
1 Okay, Judge.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Just one second.
4 THE COURT: It'll be received -- you know
5 what? None of us has it.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to copy it after she
7 marks it. I don't want it to get lost.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. DANDAR: I'll tell you what. That's not
10 a good idea. Let me just copy it now. It's marked on
11 the bottom. Let me get it marked after I make copies.
12 MR. WEINBERG: What's the number?
13 MR. LIROT: 87. I'll take responsibility
14 for that.
15 MR. DANDAR: Good. All right.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a date on that?
17 MR. LIROT: July 2nd, '01.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q So what was the result of the survey from this
21 screening?
22 A The survey rates the film from 6 being excellent,
23 down to 1 being poor. The film surveys rated it 4.6, which
24 is between good and very good.
25 Q Now, the screening just ran for a short period of
Page 185
1 time. It wasn't distributed to the general public?
2 A No, it was not.
3 Q And how did it play at this -- what was the name
4 of the place you had it screened at?
5 A It was called -- jeez, it's owned by Larry
6 Greenbaum. What's the name of that place?
7 Q Is it like a pub of some kind?
8 A Yes. It's like -- oh, it was the Clearwater
9 Cinema Cafe.
10 Q Okay. So it's not a normal movie theater?
11 A No. It's a small -- that's one of the reasons it
12 ran so long, because -- well, the first week it completely
13 sold out, and there were only 158 seats available. And it
14 set a house record, as a matter of fact.
15 But you couldn't get enough people in there. We
16 couldn't get enough surveys filled out to really have the
17 same effect. You know, when we had the big surveys of the
18 films at Universal, we would do it, you know, in 400-seat
19 movie houses, and we would have 400 surveys right away. It
20 took us all that time to get 200 surveys.
21 Q All right. Let's go off the movie now on to
22 something else.
23 THE COURT: Wait. I want to ask you a
24 question.
25 THE WITNESS: Sure.
Page 186
1 THE COURT: First of all, your movie is way
2 too dark.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, you saw -- let me just
4 say you saw a non-color-corrected print taken off of
5 the regular master. Before you go to real video, you
6 make a color-corrected print off of a special other
7 print that's done just for video. That's just a
8 rough -- you know, you saw something that doesn't --
9 THE COURT: A rough draft, sort of.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 THE COURT: Okay. What I do want to know is
12 this. Could you tell from the people that did come
13 whether you were getting a lot of the, for lack of a
14 better word, the anti-Scientology group? Or could you
15 not tell that?
16 THE WITNESS: In the first two weeks I
17 didn't like the survey results, so I threw that out.
18 It's not part of the 4.6 because -- it wasn't that we
19 were getting just people who know about Scientology or
20 the controversy; we had too many friends of ours or
21 members of the cast or --
22 THE COURT: Giving it perfect 10s.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. So we just threw those
24 out.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
Page 187
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q All right. Let's go back to you and
3 Mr. Minton's -- you and Mr. Minton. Did there come a time
4 when Mr. Minton actually appeared on the sound stage for
5 the movie The Profit?
6 A Yes, on the day that he had his bit part.
7 Q His bit part.
8 A Right.
9 Q He played a doctor?
10 A Played a doctor, yes.
11 Q Okay.
12 A He was on for a couple sets.
13 Q And after his bit part was over -- filming was
14 over, did he stay on the sound stage?
15 A I took him back over, and I wanted to show him
16 some of the dailies. He said, "I think it's great." And
17 then he left.
18 Q Okay. Do you remember afterwards going to the
19 Hyatt downtown for some drinks with Mr. Minton?
20 THE COURT: I have another stupid question
21 to ask him. I ask a lot more questions in the
22 afternoon because I have to try to stay awake.
23 THE WITNESS: Sure.
24 THE COURT: The -- a producer such as
25 Mr. Minton is a producer, kind of a non- -- he doesn't
Page 188
1 have any skills --
2 THE WITNESS: Right.
3 THE COURT: -- in movie production. But
4 he's sort of the investor. He's the one that's paying
5 for it. Do they typically involve themselves in it?
6 Or does it just depend on the person?
7 THE WITNESS: It depends on the person. I
8 mean, I could name names. But there are some people
9 that are all over the set and they've got their
10 friends there, their lady friends and their whatnot,
11 and they're all over the place. Some people, they put
12 the money in and they never show. It's just an
13 investment.
14 THE COURT: It's an investment --
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: -- and they just hope it makes
17 money for them.
18 THE WITNESS: Right. A lot.
19 THE COURT: They trust those who do have the
20 skills.
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 THE COURT: So it kind of goes all over the
23 waterfront there.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: All right. Thanks.
Page 189
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Do you recall this particular time that
3 Mr. Minton showed up at the sound stage and you all went to
4 the Hyatt for drinks?
5 A I recall another occasion, but it wasn't the day
6 he was on the film. That was much, much earlier.
7 Q Okay.
8 A That was back in April.
9 Q Of what year?
10 A 2000.
11 Q All right. And what was your conversation with
12 Mr. Minton at the Hyatt?
13 A We had just come from looking at the sound stage
14 where we were building the set. He didn't seem to be very
15 interested in it. He seemed to be agitated and upset and
16 unhappy. So he ordered a drink.
17 And I said, "What's up?"
18 He said: "These Scientologists are driving me
19 crazy. They're following me everywhere. They're harassing
20 my daughters." He said, "And I'm very, very upset." And
21 he said, "They're all over me for this Nigerian thing." He
22 made some business deal in Nigeria.
23 And I said, "Well, so? What's up with that?"
24 You know, "They're not going to get anything on you."
25 And then Patricia was there for some of that
Page 190
1 conversation. She left. And when she left and he was
2 talking about that Nigeria money, he broke down into tears,
3 and he said that he had tax problems with respect to that
4 money and that that was what was worrying him. And so --
5 Q Did he say what kind of tax problems he had with
6 that Nigerian money?
7 A Yes, said he hadn't paid taxes on that money.
8 Q And he was in tears?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, he's taking an alcoholic drink. Is he on
11 his bipolar medicine?
12 A Yes --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Your Honor, maybe
14 Mr. Dandar -- if you remember when this --
15 Mr. Minton's psychiatric issues came up, you told
16 Mr. Minton -- told Mr. Dandar to go somewhere else.
17 And now Mr. Dandar --
18 THE COURT: If the objection is just one of
19 relevance, if you would say so, I'll sustain it. We
20 could move on.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Relevance.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 MR. DANDAR: I did ask Mr. Minton if he was
24 bipolar and if he was diagnosed bipolar, and he said
25 no.
Page 191
1 THE COURT: Yes. You already asked him
2 that, and that is in the record.
3 MR. DANDAR: All right.
4 THE COURT: What was asked now is whether he
5 had a drink with this bipolar medication.
6 MR. DANDAR: No. He had a drink because he
7 was not on his bipolar medication, but that's all
8 right. We won't go there.
9 THE COURT: It is all right. Move on.
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Now --
13 THE COURT: Are you assuming that everybody
14 that is on any type of psychiatric medication
15 automatically doesn't have a drink because the doctor
16 says not to?
17 MR. DANDAR: Well, they shouldn't have a
18 drink.
19 THE COURT: Well, that may well be. But I
20 guarantee you, just in case you didn't know, that's
21 totally irrelevant. It meant nothing.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Okay. Now, we already talked about May of 2000,
24 when Mr. Minton said he was going to cause a check to be
25 sent. Now I'm going to direct your attention now to the
Page 192
1 summer of 2000. Do you recall having a phone call with
2 Mr. Minton in the summer of 2000 about the Lisa McPherson
3 case?
4 THE COURT: Summer of what?
5 MR. DANDAR: 2000.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
7 A I had a conversation with him in May about --
8 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore. After
9 that --
10 THE COURT: You said that was May?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
12 MR. WEINBERG: He already testified about
13 that.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Five minutes ago.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Did you have a similar conversation of -- several
19 months later in the summer of 2000? If you don't remember,
20 that's all right. We'll move on.
21 A Don't recall.
22 Q All right.
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Let me direct your attention with -- did there
25 come a time in October or so of 2000 where --
Page 193
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I think what I was
2 trying to show -- I must have been asleep because I
3 don't remember. What did he just testify about?
4 MR. WEINBERG: This was some time ago he
5 testified about a conversation in May of 2000 that he
6 had had with Mr. Minton. It was -- he already
7 testified --
8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, it's in the record.
9 Do we all agree it's in the record?
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
12 THE COURT: It's always good to have a big
13 lunch on a Friday.
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q All right. Do you recall in October of 2000 the
18 Lisa McPherson Trust had a benefit concert in downtown
19 Clearwater?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you recall speaking with Mr. Minton around
22 that time?
23 A Yes. He would -- again was concerned about this
24 Nigerian thing and the Scientologists were after him. And
25 he thought that they were going to file charges against
Page 194
1 him, the Swiss were. And they were -- apparently at that
2 time they were -- the Scientologists were threatening to
3 file charges against Bob or have charges filed against him.
4 So I said: "Well, huh. Let me go check that out."
5 And I have a friend who is the administrative
6 judge in the federal district -- federal part of
7 Switzerland. They have cantons like we have states, and
8 then they have the federal. And so I called him up, and I
9 said, you know, "A friend of mine says he's going to be
10 accused of money laundering here in Switzerland."
11 He said, "Well --"
12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your
13 Honor.
14 THE COURT: Sustained as to what he said.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q All right. What did you tell Bob Minton?
17 A I told Bob Minton that he was in no danger, that,
18 you know, my friend the judge said that there was no case
19 filed.
20 Q There was no case filed at that time?
21 A Yes, that's correct.
22 Q Did you ever have any conversations with
23 Mr. Minton about any --
24 THE COURT: Maybe -- I don't know, do you
25 know anything about Swiss law or anything about --
Page 195
1 THE WITNESS: He told me about it. I mean,
2 I know as much as this judge told me.
3 THE COURT: I just am curious as to how
4 anybody -- in this country, of course, nobody can have
5 charges filed against somebody. Only the government
6 can bring a criminal charge.
7 THE WITNESS: Right.
8 THE COURT: I mean, I can call up somebody
9 and say, you know, I want to report this or that. But
10 the State of Florida brings charges; the United States
11 of America brings a charge.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's the same way in
13 Switzerland. What he said was that --
14 THE COURT: So when Bob said "they" -- what
15 you say is he said, "The Scientologists were going to
16 bring charges against me." I don't get that.
17 THE WITNESS: See, it was that he thought
18 the Scientologists were going to give some evidence to
19 the Swiss prosecutors that would cause him to be
20 charged by the Swiss government.
21 THE COURT: Cause him to be prosecuted --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, ma'am.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Did he ever say what they thought they had or
25 what the charges were that were going to be brought?
Page 196
1 A No.
2 Q All right. Did there ever come a time
3 anywhere -- at any time, sorry, where Bob Minton talked
4 about any agreements that he had with the Estate of Lisa
5 McPherson and the wrongful death case?
6 A Yes. Yes, he did. Trying to remember when that
7 was.
8 THE COURT: I can hear you all clear up
9 here --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
11 THE COURT: -- Mr. Weinberg.
12 A Boy. I think that was in -- that was in July of
13 2000. Yes, that's when it was. And he said that --
14 because we were talking about the film and how we expected
15 it to do.
16 And he said, "Well, I hope it does pretty good
17 because, you know, I may never get a nickel out of this
18 Lisa McPherson lawsuit."
19 And I said, "What's up with that?"
20 And he said something like, "Well, you know, it's
21 entirely voluntary on their part that they even give me or
22 the trust any money."
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Did you talk about going on radio or in the
25 public and saying something different than that?
Page 197
1 A Yes. I don't remember when that was, if that was
2 that time or that was another time. He made some remark in
3 one of his comical modes like -- at some point in time, I
4 remember that he said, "Yes, I went on the radio, and I
5 said I was going to get all the money from it." He said,
6 "I just did that to get Scientology."
7 But, you know, that was Bob.
8 Q He liked to rile them up a little bit?
9 A He was --
10 Q Now, what is the reason why you and Patricia
11 Greenway were asked to leave the board of directors of the
12 LMT in December of 2000?
13 A Well, the particular thing that happened was that
14 Patricia was asking Mark Bunker, who was the
15 videographer --
16 THE COURT: Wait a second here. I'm just
17 not -- you're going too fast. Hang on just a minute.
18 Okay. Go ahead.
19 A Patricia had asked Mark Bunker for a videotape.
20 And Mark Bunker said, "Well" -- I don't remember a
21 videotape of what, even. But Mark Bunker said, "Well, I
22 put the request, your request, on Stacy's desk."
23 And Patricia said: "Don't put it on Stacy's
24 desk. Nothing will ever happen to it. You know what
25 Stacy's desk" -- I don't know what term she used, but it
Page 198
1 was like a black hole. You know, it was going to go in
2 there and it wasn't going to come out. "Just give me the
3 dang tape."
4 Well, Stacy got wind of this, and she didn't like
5 it one bit. So when we went over there to the Lisa
6 McPherson Trust one day, she confronted Patricia and I with
7 that and said, "Why are you saying that I'm not a good
8 administrator?"
9 And Patricia said, "Well, because you're not."
10 And I said: "What's the big deal? You didn't
11 even want to be --"
12 She didn't want to be the executive director of
13 the Lisa McPherson Trust because she didn't have that kind
14 of administrative ability, she said.
15 So I said, "What's the big deal?" You know:
16 "Nobody thinks that you're like Ms. Management or anything
17 like that. Forget it."
18 And -- but she didn't want to forget --
19 THE COURT: Something like Ms. Manners?
20 THE WITNESS: Ms. Management, yes.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Management.
22 A So -- so, you know, she got upset. And she went
23 into her office and then a couple minutes later called
24 Patricia and I into her office and said: "Come in here.
25 Bob wants to talk to you."
Page 199
1 So we go in there, and Bob's on the phone --
2 speaker phone. And he's yelling at us and screaming at us.
3 And, you know, I'm not used to being talked to like that,
4 and Patricia isn't either. We're like business people from
5 the business world.
6 And so, you know, at the end of it, Bob said:
7 "Well, that's it. You're off the board."
8 And so I said: "Hey, man, whatever. I'm out of
9 here."
10 Q Were you being paid to be on the board?
11 A No.
12 Q That was just a voluntary thing?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, you continued, though, after you were off
15 the board of directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust to
16 continue to work on the movie The Profit?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And did there come a time when there was a
19 showing in Europe of this film?
20 A Yes. On June the 9th, the film -- Bob asked us,
21 as a matter of fact, if we would go to Leipzig, Germany,
22 and show the film to a human rights congress in Leipzig,
23 Germany.
24 Q And was that 2001?
25 A 2001, yes.
Page 200
1 Q Six months after you were kicked off the board?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And did you go?
4 A Yes, we went. We took the film. We showed it to
5 the attendees at the conference and some press people.
6 Q Did Bob Minton show up for that?
7 A No, he wasn't there. You know, Bob has never
8 seen this film in a theater on film. He wasn't -- I don't
9 know, I guess maybe he wasn't that interested.
10 Q Okay. Did there come a time -- first of all, let
11 me ask you this. What type of relationship do you and I
12 have?
13 A Well, I would say now we're friends.
14 Q And when did that start?
15 A Oh, it was sometime after all this. I think
16 maybe -- actually, maybe early this year.
17 Q And let's go back to the trust for a minute.
18 While you were there, '99, October -- I think you said
19 October, November '99 to December of 2000, did you see me
20 at the trust?
21 A I saw you once. You were there complaining about
22 the fact that they were picketing. You didn't like it.
23 Q Okay. Is that the only time you saw me there?
24 A That's the only time I recall.
25 Q Okay. Do you know if I had an office at the
Page 201
1 trust?
2 A No, you didn't have an office at the trust.
3 Q Did I -- well, outside of what you already talked
4 about, is there any other incidents where you can recall
5 that I did any kind of input with the trust?
6 A No, not that I remember. I never saw you around
7 there.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I mean, I saw you that time. I remember that
10 time.
11 Q Okay. Let's go then to this year, 2002.
12 A Okay.
13 Q Did there come a time in 2002 when I had any
14 lunch or discussion with you at lunch concerning funding of
15 the Lisa McPherson Trust case?
16 A Yes. That was back in March. And Patricia and I
17 were at the Cheesecake Factory in Tampa. And you came up
18 and joined us for lunch and indicated that you were trying
19 to get funding for the case and that a check was going to
20 be sent to you but it wasn't from Bob Minton. It was from
21 some other source or something like that. I can't
22 remember.
23 Q Did I tell you what the conditions were --
24 A Oh, yes.
25 Q -- if any?
Page 202
1 A Yes. The conditions were that you had to stop
2 talking to Patricia Greenway forevermore.
3 Q Did you hear anything about Internet critics of
4 Bob Minton stop -- because he stopped funding the case?
5 A Yes, that Bob was upset about it. I understood
6 that, although I think I understood that -- I don't follow
7 this Internet thing. You know, I don't go on the Internet
8 and look at that material. So that was at a later time.
9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just a minute.
10 That's all I have.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Good time to take a
12 little afternoon break.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'm pretty under
14 the weather. Mr. Moxon is going to do the cross.
15 THE COURT: That's fine.
16 (Break taken at 2:32 p.m. until 2:47 p.m.)
17 THE COURT: You may be seated.
18 You may continue.
19 MR. MOXON: Are you finished?
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Mr. Alexander, you know nothing about the
24 introspection rundown, do you?
25 A No.
Page 203
1 Q You said you never heard of it?
2 A Not while I was in Scientology.
3 Q You were in Scientology for 20 years?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And during the time that you were in Scientology,
6 surely you knew about the book, What Is Scientology? didn't
7 you?
8 A That came out at the very end.
9 Q Yes. You know that in What Is Scientology? is a
10 description of the introspection rundown?
11 A No, I didn't know that.
12 Q You left in 1998?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Didn't the first edition of this come out in the
15 early 1990s?
16 A I don't know. I never had that book.
17 Q Okay. You don't have any knowledge concerning
18 what happened to Lisa McPherson personally, do you?
19 A Not personally, no.
20 Q You don't know any of the defendants in this
21 case, do you?
22 A Is Janis Johnson one, the MLO? Is she one?
23 Q That's right.
24 A I might have seen her once.
25 Q But you don't know what any of them were doing in
Page 204
1 1995, do you?
2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was that
3 question?
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q You don't know what any of the defendants were
6 doing in 1995?
7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd like more of a
8 predicate. I'd like a list of the defendants. I
9 don't know that Mr. Alexander is even --
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. LIROT: -- familiar with all the
12 defendants.
13 THE COURT: I believe that's true. I
14 believe he --
15 The Church of Scientology Flag Service
16 Organization, I presume you might know something about
17 that.
18 THE WITNESS: I know dozens of people.
19 MR. MOXON: Individuals I'm talking about.
20 THE COURT: Okay. But Alain Kartuzinski,
21 Janis Johnson, and David Houghton.
22 A I think I saw Janis Johnson once.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q By the way, who prepared you to testify today?
25 A Mr. Dandar.
Page 205
1 Q Did he tell you the questions he was going to ask
2 you?
3 A He asked me questions, but they weren't, as it
4 turned out, the same questions that he asked here.
5 Q So the questions you were asked today were
6 totally new?
7 A No. Some of them were; some of them weren't.
8 Q You basically had no idea what he was going to
9 ask you today?
10 A No. He basically asked me some of the questions,
11 and -- but some of them were new.
12 Q You said David Miscavige was the captain of the
13 Sea Organization, correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Was he the only captain?
16 A I think he's in charge. I don't know if he's the
17 only captain, but I know he's in charge.
18 Q Have you ever heard of Guillaume Lesvre?
19 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, who?
20 MR. MOXON: Guillaume Lesvre.
21 THE COURT: Better spell that.
22 MR. MOXON: G-u-i-l-l-a-u-m-e, L-e-s-v-r-e.
23 A Yes. He would be also one of the top executives.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q But he wasn't the captain, was he?
Page 206
1 A He wasn't the captain of the Sea Org. He wasn't
2 in charge.
3 Q Was he a captain or wasn't he?
4 A I don't know.
5 THE COURT: If you don't know the answer to
6 something, you may say, "I don't know."
7 A I don't know.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q How about Captain Mark Yeager? Did you know him?
10 A No.
11 Q Never heard of him?
12 A I heard that name after I got out of Scientology;
13 but while I was in Scientology, no.
14 Q He was the Watchdog Committee chairman for almost
15 two decades, right?
16 A There's a lot of executives in Scientology.
17 Q Okay. How about Captain Mike Napier? Do you
18 know him?
19 A No.
20 Q He has been the captain of the Freewinds for 15
21 years. Did you know that?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know who Debbie Cook is?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you know what her rank was?
Page 207
1 A No, I don't.
2 Q Captain? Did you know that?
3 A No.
4 Q She was the head of the Flag Service
5 Organization --
6 THE COURT: If he doesn't know who she is --
7 THE WITNESS: I do know who she is.
8 THE COURT: Oh, you do. Okay.
9 A Yes, I know Debbie Cook.
10 BY MR. MOXON:
11 Q She's the head of the Flag Service Organization,
12 right?
13 A She was, yes.
14 Q So you don't know how many people are people of
15 rank in the Sea Organization of David Miscavige, do you?
16 A I know that he's in charge. I don't know what
17 else -- or, the other ranks of people, no.
18 Q That's based on your personal knowledge, of you
19 being there and seeing him in the organization, right?
20 A You bet. The way they snapped and jumped when he
21 was coming, oh, he was in charge, let me tell you.
22 THE COURT: Don't editorialize. Don't say
23 "Yeah," and all that, please.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q Do you know what Jesse Prince's rank was?
Page 208
1 A No.
2 Q He obviously wasn't a captain, was he.
3 A I don't know.
4 Q By the way, do you even know what the hierarchy
5 is of ranks in the Sea Organization?
6 A Same as the Navy.
7 Q What's the lowest rank in the Sea Organization?
8 A I don't remember what they call it, but I think
9 it's just like a seaman in the Navy.
10 Q Well, there is no seaman rank in the Sea
11 Organization.
12 A I don't know what they call it.
13 THE COURT: You can't testify, Counselor,
14 unless you want to get up here.
15 BY MR. MOXON:
16 Q Now, when you hear Scientologists refer to David
17 Miscavige, they refer to him as COB, right?
18 A Generally, yes.
19 Q Yes. In fact, you testified that all of the
20 publications which have pictures of David Miscavige refer
21 to him as captain of the Sea Org? Is that right?
22 A No. That's not what I testified to.
23 Q Did you see any of them refer to him as captain
24 of the Sea Org, a single one?
25 A Yes. There was one that had a picture of the
Page 209
1 Flag crew, and they were all in their uniforms, all in
2 their dress uniforms.
3 Q Something Mr. Dandar showed you?
4 A No, no. I saw that when I was in Scientology.
5 Q Are you familiar with Scientology News?
6 THE COURT: Let him finish his -- let him
7 finish his answer.
8 Go on ahead.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you.
10 A What I saw was a -- it was a magazine or maybe --
11 yes, it was a magazine cover. And it had like a lineup of
12 all the members of the Flag crew with -- and the
13 executives; I recognized some of them -- from RTC. And
14 David Miscavige was standing in front. And I'm pretty sure
15 it said on it "Captain David Miscavige," you know. Yes, I
16 think it did.
17 Q You have no document of this, do you?
18 A No.
19 Q That was --
20 A That was years ago.
21 MR. MOXON: May I approach, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. MOXON: I don't think I need to mark
24 these. I just want to show these to the witness.
25 MR. DANDAR: Don't I get a copy?
Page 210
1 THE COURT: You get to look at them before
2 it comes in.
3 MR. MOXON: Publication, Scientology News.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Wait. You need to show him.
5 MR. MOXON: Oh, okay.
6 MR. DANDAR: Do they have the dates on them?
7 That's all I'm interested in.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q You're familiar with Scientology News?
10 A I don't remember that specific publication, no.
11 Q Never seen them?
12 A We got a lot of stuff sent to our house. I threw
13 most of it out.
14 Q Okay. So did you notice in the pictures of
15 Scientology News that all of the references were to
16 chairman of the board --
17 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
18 Q -- of RTC of David Miscavige?
19 THE COURT: Sustained. No predicate because
20 he's not seen them.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q Take a look. Have you seen this one?
23 THE COURT: He asked you if you saw it.
24 A I've seen this picture. I don't know if it was
25 in this magazine, but I've seen this picture.
Page 211
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q Okay. It refers to David Miscavige as chairman
3 of the board of RTC?
4 A M'hum (affirmative).
5 THE COURT: Is that yes?
6 THE WITNESS: That's yes.
7 THE COURT: Please don't use "m'hum."
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's "yes."
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q Here's another one, 1996 New Year's event,
11 picture of David Miscavige?
12 THE COURT: If you're going to use these
13 things, you're going to have to put them into
14 evidence. I don't have a clue of what it is you're
15 showing him. The record doesn't have a clue of what
16 it is. So if you're going to put something in front
17 of the witness and have him say what it says, you'll
18 have to put it in evidence.
19 MR. MOXON: I will make copies of these and
20 put them in evidence.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Take a look at this one.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Did you see the New Year's event, 1996/'97?
Page 212
1 A No.
2 Q See it refers to David Miscavige as chairman of
3 the board of Religious Technology Center?
4 A Yes, I see that.
5 MR. DANDAR: There's no dispute that's
6 another role that he has. But these are also after
7 1995, so they keep thinking -- that's out of date. It
8 should be 1995 to have relevance to this case.
9 THE COURT: What were the dates on those?
10 MR. MOXON: One of them was 2000; one was
11 1996/'97.
12 THE COURT: That's true. That would not
13 really have any bearing on, I suppose, what was going
14 on in this case, which would had to have been 1995 --
15 up in December of '95.
16 BY MR. MOXON:
17 Q You're the director of Courage Productions?
18 A I was the director of the film The Profit.
19 Q Are you the director of the corporation?
20 A No.
21 Q It's an L.L.C., right?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Does it have a director?
24 A No.
25 Q Does it have an owner?
Page 213
1 A It has members.
2 Q Okay. You and Mr. Minton were the two members?
3 A Correct.
4 Q The only business of Courage Productions was to
5 film The Profit, wasn't it?
6 A That's right.
7 Q And the entire financing for this film was from
8 Mr. Minton?
9 A No.
10 Q How -- Mr. Minton put in $2 1/2 million?
11 A 2.4.
12 Q 2.4. Who put in the rest?
13 A I did.
14 Q How much?
15 A That's company private information.
16 Q How much?
17 A That's company private information, privileged.
18 MR. DANDAR: Object, privilege. There's no
19 relevance to it anyway.
20 THE COURT: What's the relevance?
21 MR. MOXON: Well, the relevance is that
22 Mr. Minton testified that the purpose of this film was
23 to influence potential jurors and to just generally
24 denigrate Scientology. I'm going to show that
25 Mr. Minton had a measure of control over it.
Page 214
1 THE COURT: Well, I think what -- what he
2 put into it by money doesn't necessarily measure
3 control.
4 What were your ownership interests as far as
5 partnership interests or anything like that?
6 THE WITNESS: 50-50.
7 THE COURT: So sustained.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q You didn't put in $2 1/2 million, did you?
10 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
11 THE COURT: Sustained. I think Mr. Minton
12 testified as to what he put in anyway.
13 BY MR. MOXON:
14 Q Did Patricia Greenway have any interest in the
15 film?
16 A No.
17 Q She was an employee of Courage Productions?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And the funds that you received and that
20 Ms. Greenway received while you were doing the work on this
21 film came from money from Mr. Minton, correct?
22 A She didn't receive any.
23 Q She didn't receive any money from Courage
24 Productions?
25 A She didn't receive the funds from Mr. Minton. I
Page 215
1 did.
2 Q Okay. But she was paid out of the funds that you
3 received from Mr. Minton, right?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q Did Ms. Greenway tell you that Mr. Minton and
6 Stacy Brooks testified in this case?
7 A They didn't have to -- she didn't have to.
8 Q Who told you?
9 A I knew that they did.
10 Q How did you know that?
11 A I heard from Ken originally that Bob and Stacy
12 were going to be called and that they had filed affidavits.
13 Q Did he tell you he needed you to testify?
14 A He asked me what I knew about the affidavits, and
15 I told him.
16 Q So after Mr. Dandar told you that, you filed a
17 lawsuit against Stacy Brooks. Isn't that right?
18 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
19 THE COURT: Well, the lawsuit is in
20 evidence, so that's overruled.
21 A Okay. In response to an illegal bad faith
22 posting on the Internet, yes, we did.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q And you hired Mr. Lirot, plaintiff's counsel, to
25 file that lawsuit against Ms. Brooks?
Page 216
1 A That's correct.
2 Q Was Mr. Lirot being paid out of money that was
3 provided to Courage Productions by Mr. Minton?
4 A That's company private information, privileged.
5 Q Was he --
6 MR. DANDAR: Privileged and relevancy.
7 THE COURT: What's the relevance of this?
8 MR. MOXON: Well, we have a situation
9 here --
10 THE COURT: I mean, that would be relevant
11 if it had something to do with that suit.
12 MR. MOXON: It is. It goes to --
13 THE COURT: I mean, I told you all along, as
14 far as I'm concerned, The Profit is irrelevant. It
15 still is as far as I'm concerned. There isn't a soul
16 that's going to persuade me otherwise. This is all
17 sort of an effort in futility. I'm going to sustain
18 the objection simply because I think that would have
19 more relevance in Ms. Brooks' lawsuit, not his.
20 MR. MOXON: Well, it goes --
21 THE COURT: I understand, Counselor, what
22 you think. I've ruled. Move to your next question.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for
24 consistency, could the same rule apply to objections
25 on the other side? So far Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar --
Page 217
1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, yes, to both sides.
2 MR. LIROT: My apology, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Just can't control them.
5 BY MR. MOXON:
6 Q This lawsuit seeks treble damages against
7 Ms. Brooks?
8 A To tell you the truth, I do not recall.
9 Q You haven't read the complaint?
10 A I have, but I do not recall.
11 Q It seeks punitive damages against you too,
12 doesn't it?
13 MR. DANDAR: Are we just going to continue
14 talking about this irrelevant case?
15 THE COURT: Not if you keep objecting.
16 MR. DANDAR: I'll keep objecting.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY MR. MOXON:
19 Q You hired Mr. Lirot to send a cease and desist
20 letter to Robert Minton, didn't you?
21 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
22 THE COURT: I'll allow that.
23 A Yes.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q And you were using money that was provided by
Page 218
1 Mr. Minton to Courage Productions to pay Mr. Lirot to
2 threaten Mr. Minton?
3 A That's company private information.
4 THE COURT: And besides that, that's
5 irrelevant. That sounds like you're trying to work up
6 some information in my courtroom about some later
7 motion that you might want to file against Mr. Lirot.
8 We're not going to have it. Get onto something
9 relevant about this.
10 BY MR. MOXON:
11 Q Okay. You had a deal with Mr. Minton to fund
12 this case, correct? It was reduced to a contract?
13 A Fund the case?
14 Q Fund the law -- fund the film.
15 A Film, yes.
16 Q The first check you got on that, do you remember
17 how much it was?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you remember what month it was?
20 A February of 2000.
21 Q That was in the amount of $157,000 -- $157,190,
22 correct?
23 A I don't know. I don't recall.
24 Q Let me show you this, if I may, to refresh your
25 recollection.
Page 219
1 MR. DANDAR: If the Court wants to know, the
2 Courage Production lawsuit against Ms. Brooks has been
3 settled amicably. And I wanted to bring it to your
4 attention sooner, but -- I should have, but I didn't.
5 I apologize, but just to let you know that.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as next exhibit in
8 order -- which is?
9 THE CLERK: 176.
10 THE COURT: What do I care about going
11 through all these checks Mr. Minton gave him?
12 MR. MOXON: Well, there are only several
13 checks, your Honor. I only have --
14 THE COURT: Why do I care? What is of
15 interest here to me about business dealings between
16 the two of them? What was the purpose here? And they
17 each have said, as oftentimes people do in this case,
18 different things.
19 MR. DANDAR: What's interesting and maybe is
20 relevant to our allegations of extortion and collusion
21 is that Mr. Minton turned over these checks to the
22 Church of Scientology, breaching his fiduciary
23 relationship with Mr. Alexander.
24 MR. MOXON: It also clearly goes to the
25 issue of bias as to the receipt of money by this -- by
Page 220
1 this witness. This witness, who is now testifying on
2 behalf of Mr. Dandar, has received a lot of money.
3 He -- he did this. He created this film, the purpose
4 of which we say was to --
5 THE COURT: Bias needs to be shown in this
6 lawsuit, not bias against Mr. Minton or some other
7 lawsuit, but bias in this lawsuit.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q Well, you filed an affidavit for Mr. Dandar in
10 this lawsuit, didn't you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q In fact, you were identified at one point as an
13 expert witness in this lawsuit, correct?
14 A I knew I was a witness. I didn't know I was an
15 expert witness.
16 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you he had withdrawn you as a
17 witness?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. And the affidavit that you signed for
20 Mr. Dandar was signed just a few weeks before you received
21 this check for $157,000, wasn't it?
22 A I don't recall when it was signed.
23 Q Do you remember in January of the year 2000 you
24 went to Mr. Dandar's office and an affidavit was drafted
25 and signed and notarized there?
Page 221
1 A I remember going to Mr. Dandar's office, and I
2 know it had to be before April because that's when you
3 deposed me on the issue, but I don't really recall what
4 time it was, no, what month.
5 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as next in order an
6 affidavit of Peter Alexander dated 14 January 2000.
7 What number is that?
8 THE CLERK: 177.
9 MR. DANDAR: 177?
10 MR. MOXON: M'hum (affirmative).
11 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
12 BY MR. MOXON:
13 Q Does it refresh your recollection that you
14 received the check approximately three weeks after you
15 signed this affidavit for Mr. Dandar?
16 A Looks like it.
17 Q Okay.
18 THE COURT: Where is the check? I'm sorry.
19 THE WITNESS: It's here, ma'am.
20 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Are you going to put that
22 in evidence?
23 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. It's No. 176.
24 Excuse me.
25 THE COURT: Well, now, you've got another
Page 222
1 one on the top of it that says to Jesse Prince.
2 What's that doing on this piece of paper?
3 MR. MOXON: Oh, it was just pointed out to
4 me I forgot to mention --
5 THE COURT: Counselor, I understand it might
6 be more important to you that -- something that
7 Mr. Shaw says, but when I ask you a question in this
8 courtroom, I get to be answered first. What is this
9 check to Mr. Prince doing on top of this that you just
10 introduced into evidence?
11 MR. MOXON: This was a check that was
12 received in discovery in this case from the bank
13 account.
14 THE COURT: Well, that's hardly an answer.
15 Based on -- you don't get that check from Mr. Prince
16 off of that. It doesn't come in evidence. You can't
17 just throw into evidence stuff that's not relevant or
18 hasn't been testified to or anything of the sort.
19 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, this is the way it
20 was received from the bank. When the bank made the
21 document production, they put three checks on a page.
22 And that's precisely the way they produced it to us,
23 so I didn't want to alter the document. So that's the
24 way it was produced. And this document has been in
25 evidence. It's been filed previously in this case.
Page 223
1 And --
2 THE COURT: If there's an objection to the
3 check, it's sustained. You can't put in a check to
4 Mr. Prince that has nothing to do with it. I don't
5 care how you got it. This is an evidentiary matter
6 you're putting it into.
7 MR. WEINBERG: We'll just take that part
8 off.
9 THE COURT: Yes, take that off. That's what
10 I'm trying to say.
11 MR. DANDAR: On the bottom there's two other
12 documents --
13 THE COURT: Whatever else. You can put the
14 check in; that's it. The rest of it needs to come
15 out.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we say it's
17 received --
18 THE COURT: Subject --
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- pending, you know, taking
20 out that middle section.
21 THE COURT: All right. Fair enough.
22 MR. MOXON: We'll handle it at the next
23 break, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 BY MR. MOXON:
Page 224
1 Q Did you receive any other money from Mr. Minton
2 around the time of your testimony in this case in April of
3 2000?
4 THE COURT: This wasn't money that he
5 received. This was money to Courage Productions.
6 This is money to a corporation that I presume
7 Mr. Minton has something to do with too.
8 MR. DANDAR: But the innuendo that they want
9 to create is it has something to do with his
10 affidavit.
11 THE COURT: Well, of course. I understand
12 that. But, I mean, you can't say this is money -- did
13 you receive any more money -- as I have told you all,
14 and the Church had better continue to understand this,
15 they are very -- I assume wanting the corporation to
16 stand at all times, a corporation separate from an
17 individual. You need to remember that. If you don't,
18 I guarantee you it will come back to haunt you and
19 your client. This was not money that he received.
20 This was money that Courage Productions received,
21 whatever in the world that may be.
22 MR. MOXON: Thank you, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. MOXON: I understand. Let me just
25 correct that.
Page 225
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q You received -- that is, Courage Productions
3 received -- $159,000 in February -- approximately $159,000
4 in February of 2000, correct?
5 MR. WEINBERG: 157.
6 MR. MOXON: 157.
7 A Looks like 157.
8 BY MR. MOXON:
9 Q Did you pay yourself out of that money?
10 A I'd have to go back and look at the payroll
11 records.
12 Q Well, did you draw any pay from Courage
13 Productions?
14 A Sure.
15 Q Did Courage Productions receive any other
16 substantial money at that time?
17 A That's confidential and private information.
18 Q You testified earlier that Mr. Minton was funding
19 the entirety of this film, right?
20 A I didn't testify to that.
21 Q Didn't you testify Mr. Minton said he wanted to
22 fund the whole thing?
23 A That's what --
24 THE COURT: You really need --
25 A -- he said, yes.
Page 226
1 THE COURT: -- to get on with this. This is
2 a check to a company. You've got an affidavit three
3 weeks later. You know, make whatever argument you
4 think that tells us at the appropriate time. Don't
5 argue with this witness.
6 MR. MOXON: All right.
7 BY MR. MOXON:
8 Q The funds that you received from Mr. Minton were
9 pursuant to the contract. You were supposed to receive a
10 periodic payment. Isn't that right?
11 MR. DANDAR: Objection. The check went to
12 Courage Productions, not to the witness.
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 BY MR. MOXON:
15 Q I misspoke again. Courage Productions was
16 supposed to receive periodic payments, right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And that was per a schedule?
19 A Yes.
20 Q That you had worked out with Mr. Minton?
21 A I presented it to him.
22 MR. MOXON: I'd like to mark as the next
23 exhibit in order No. 178, a copy of the operating
24 agreement of Courage Productions.
25 THE COURT: Relevance?
Page 227
1 MR. DANDAR: Relevance.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3 MR. DANDAR: She sustained my objection.
4 THE COURT: You were so busy talking there,
5 I think you missed it. There was an objection, and it
6 was sustained. I mean, what is the relevance of it?
7 MR. MOXON: The relevance of it is the one
8 has been, one, talking about this agreement that he
9 made with Mr. Minton. It was introduced by
10 Mr. Dandar, this contract that he had with Mr. Minton.
11 And he -- he made reference also to payments
12 that he received from Mr. Minton which he made
13 conclusions about as to the source of these payments.
14 You'll recall the $500,000 check as part of the
15 payments that he received from Mr. Minton pursuant to
16 this contract. And I believe this will show it's
17 contrary to what the witness has testified.
18 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff did not introduce any
19 contract with this witness.
20 THE COURT: I don't recall any contract
21 being introduced.
22 MR. MOXON: He didn't introduce the document
23 itself. Of course I've got the document; that's what
24 I'm seeking to introduce. But he introduced the fact
25 that he had, in fact, the contract with Mr. Minton to
Page 228
1 fund the litigation under which he was receiving
2 payments to fund Mr. Minton --
3 THE COURT: To fund what litigation?
4 MR. MOXON: For this -- I'm sorry, for the
5 film, that he was receiving payments from Mr. Minton
6 for the film. Mr. Dandar elicited testimony from this
7 witness with respect to some of the checks that he got
8 in an attempt to support Mr. Dandar's story about
9 these checks.
10 If I can show this to the witness, I think
11 this will be clear enough, your Honor.
12 MR. DANDAR: It's not impeachment documents.
13 There were questions --
14 THE COURT: Well, if it's proper
15 cross-examination, it doesn't have to be impeachment.
16 I mean, he can get in relevant information through a
17 witness just like you can. I guess I'm just trying to
18 figure out what the relevance is here.
19 Who is it you're trying to say -- are you
20 trying to say Mr. Minton gave him money to -- or, gave
21 a corporation money, he got that money, and now you're
22 trying to say that somehow that shows he would come up
23 here and lie about the very man who gave him the money
24 to produce this film? Is that what it's all about?
25 MR. MOXON: Yes, that's part --
Page 229
1 THE COURT: That is just not appropriate. I
2 mean, that's ludicrous.
3 MR. MOXON: Well, it's part of what I'm
4 doing. Another thing I'm doing here, your Honor, is
5 to demonstrate that the money that he got from him
6 that -- from these particular checks -- he said he got
7 this alleged anonymous check from Stacy Brooks.
8 Mr. Dandar elicited that on his direct examination --
9 THE COURT: Oh, you're talking about that
10 Stacy Brooks check? All right. That may be relevant.
11 I didn't, quite frankly, understand that when it came
12 in. I had no idea what it had to do with this case.
13 Nobody objected, so I let it in. But I don't even
14 know that I wrote it down.
15 MR. DANDAR: This is a far cry from Stacy
16 Brooks handing him a check. That's the only question
17 I asked of this witness.
18 BY MR. MOXON:
19 Q If you'll look at page 18 of this --
20 THE WITNESS: So is this thing in evidence?
21 THE COURT: I don't know. I'm looking at
22 it, and I don't see what the relevance is.
23 THE WITNESS: Because I personally think
24 that whoever gave you this showed bad faith, and I --
25 THE COURT: Well, did you give it to him?
Page 230
1 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, not that I know of.
2 THE COURT: Well, who would have had this
3 besides you?
4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton.
5 THE COURT: Well, then there you have your
6 answer.
7 MR. DANDAR: This is a privileged document
8 of Courage Productions.
9 THE WITNESS: Right.
10 MR. DANDAR: It should not be given to
11 any --
12 MR. MOXON: It was attached to the
13 complaint.
14 THE WITNESS: You know, he gave it to them
15 before. Never mind. Never mind, I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: Go ahead. Page 18?
17 BY MR. MOXON:
18 Q Page 18, you see the list of payments that were
19 supposed to be made?
20 A M'hum (affirmative). Yes, I do.
21 Q Now, you testified that Stacy Brooks gave you a
22 check for $500,000?
23 A No.
24 THE COURT: I don't think he ever, ever
25 mentioned an amount.
Page 231
1 MR. DANDAR: He did not.
2 THE COURT: No, I know he didn't. That's
3 what I said. I had no idea what that was even about,
4 didn't care, didn't even write it down.
5 BY MR. MOXON:
6 Q How much was the check that Stacy Brooks gave
7 you?
8 A I don't recall.
9 Q Was it on a UBS check? Union Bank of Switzerland
10 drawn on Chase Manhattan Bank for $500,000?
11 A I do not recall.
12 MR. MOXON: I'll mark this next in order.
13 179?
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we'd like to have counsel
15 establish how they got a copy of this UBS check to
16 Courage Productions, because that certainly wasn't
17 from the Bank of America deposition.
18 THE COURT: Well, I suggest what you do is
19 put a subpoena out and put somebody up on the stand
20 and ask them questions. I can't ask them how they got
21 this. We're in the middle of a hearing.
22 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. I will do that,
23 Judge.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I think it's already in
25 evidence. I think this was one of the checks that
Page 232
1 Mr. Minton got from the letters from Switzerland
2 saying -- there were three checks saying this, you
3 know --
4 THE COURT: I don't know, we just need to
5 move on. If this is already in evidence, I don't know
6 why we're even doing it again.
7 MR. LIROT: I believe that is correct. I
8 think this was an exhibit to the omnibus motion, the
9 memorandum.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 BY MR. MOXON:
12 Q You recall now receiving a check for $500,000
13 pursuant to your agreement with Mr. Minton, which I've
14 identified as Exhibit 179?
15 A I remember getting a $500,000 payment. I guess
16 this must be it, yes.
17 Q Now, when Ms. Brooks gave you the check that you
18 testified to with Mr. Dandar --
19 A Not this check.
20 Q When she gave you that check, was that a bank
21 check like this, or was it a check on Mr. Minton's account?
22 THE COURT: Well, what is the purpose of
23 this? I mean, I've never heard of such -- you put
24 something into evidence and then say was the check
25 that you just told me was relevant was some check that
Page 233
1 Stacy Brooks gave. Now I learn this isn't it; it may
2 not even look like this.
3 MR. WEINBERG: This is, by the way, Exhibit
4 122, and what is relevant is Mr. Minton said he
5 caused -- it was his money he sent from -- through
6 this UBS check, he sent -- he gave one $500,000 check
7 to Mr. Dandar, one $250,000 check to Mr. Dandar, and a
8 $500,000 check to Courage Productions. And I think he
9 also indicated he had used the same process for the
10 Sweden thing, you know -- oh, I don't know what he
11 said about that.
12 But that was the relevance. It was his
13 money. That's what it had to deal with. Mr. Dandar
14 said he didn't know it was his money. You know, he
15 was using this process for his obligation under
16 Courage Productions as well.
17 MR. DANDAR: The checks I asked him about
18 were the last two checks in 2001, not a check from
19 2000. And -- and he said that all he recalled was it
20 came from Credit Swiss, which is not a UBS check.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about
22 Mr. Minton? This is in evidence. This is 122. We
23 asked him about it.
24 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about it's outside
25 the scope of the questions I asked of this witness.
Page 234
1 THE COURT: I will ask a question about --
2 122 is in. It's already in evidence. This Check
3 No. 179, what is the relevance?
4 I'm going to ask Mr. Moxon. What is the
5 relevance of this? You say it's relevant because
6 Mr. Minton said he used this -- he brought in a lot of
7 money into this country? Are you just trying to get
8 more money in so that he --
9 MR. WEINBERG: It's his money. In other
10 words, Mr. Dandar said he didn't know. I don't
11 believe Mr. Dandar's testimony that somehow he didn't
12 believe that this was Mr. Minton's money. Well,
13 Mr. Minton had already used UBS check -- a UBS check.
14 I don't know the date on that. What's the
15 date?
16 THE COURT: Well, are you trying to suggest
17 that because Mr. Minton gave a check to Courage
18 Productions that somehow or another that's relevant to
19 show that Mr. Dandar knew something about some
20 different check that came --
21 MR. WEINBERG: No. There was some question
22 as to whether this was Mr. Minton's money; in other
23 words, that Mr. Minton wasn't telling the truth when
24 he said it was his money. And Mr. Minton said: Hey,
25 it's my money in the UBS checks. And as best evidence
Page 235
1 of that, as part of the evidence of that, I used it on
2 an occasion to pay my obligation under Courage
3 Productions as well.
4 THE COURT: All right. If that's relevant
5 to this -- I don't have any doubt. Mr. Dandar may
6 have a doubt that it's Mr. Minton's money. I don't.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that's why we put it
8 in --
9 THE COURT: But this is not relevant to this
10 hearing but for that. And frankly, I'll just take it,
11 and we'll just add that to the rest of the money from
12 out of the country.
13 Go on ahead.
14 BY MR. MOXON:
15 Q Okay. You didn't receive any $500,000 checks
16 from any anonymous sources, did you? I mean, you didn't
17 know who it was?
18 A No.
19 Q Now, this movie, The Profit, was supposed to be a
20 parody about Scientology, wasn't it?
21 A No.
22 Q No? Did it have anything to do with Scientology?
23 A There are many parallels between Scientology and
24 the characters portrayed in the preliminary.
25 Q In fact, this main character, L. Conrad Powers,
Page 236
1 wasn't that supposed to be some kind of bizarre parody of
2 the name L. Ron Hubbard?
3 A It's a fictional character I made up.
4 Q It's just a coincidence with the similarity of
5 the names?
6 A You can attribute anything to it you want. It's
7 a fictional character I made up.
8 Q Okay. And the name Scientific Spiritualism that
9 you made up, was that just a coincidence that it was
10 similar to Scientology?
11 A I didn't make it up.
12 Q You didn't make that up?
13 A No.
14 Q Who did?
15 A A Greek fellow.
16 Q You used the name in the movie, right?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Was that just a coincidence then it was similar
19 to Scientology, the name you chose for this group?
20 A There are many parallels.
21 Q I'm talking about the name.
22 A I heard what you're talking about.
23 Q Okay. So it was a coincidence that the name
24 Spiritual -- Scientific Spiritualism is so similar to
25 Scientology as far as you're concerned?
Page 237
1 A I don't think it's that similar.
2 THE COURT: I don't either. But apparently
3 some people do. I didn't connect it at all.
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q And there was a character in your movie called
6 Commander Mitch Cabot, right?
7 A Right.
8 Q Who is that supposed to be?
9 A A messenger.
10 Q Is it supposed to be some sort of parody of
11 Miscavige, Mitch Cabot?
12 A No.
13 Q Again, the similarity of the sounding of those
14 names is just a coincidence?
15 A You can term it whatever you want to. It wasn't
16 supposed to be David Miscavige. He was in charge of
17 Scientology as far as I knew. This guy was just a
18 messenger.
19 Q And the meter that was used, the Mind Meter, was
20 that supposed to be a parody of the E-Meter used in
21 Scientology?
22 A You keep asking me about the word "parody."
23 Q Well --
24 A I will describe it in my terms that I thought
25 that would be a pretty good comic routine.
Page 238
1 Q Was that just a coincidence that this evil group
2 that you portrayed in your movie had a meter that they used
3 called a Mind Meter? It was just a coincidence with the
4 Scientology E-Meter?
5 MR. DANDAR: Objection. It assumes facts
6 not in evidence to call the movie group evil.
7 THE COURT: Go on ahead and answer the
8 question if you can.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 A Would you repeat that question.
11 BY MR. MOXON:
12 Q Yes. Was this again just a coincidence that this
13 horrible group that you portrayed in the movie --
14 THE COURT: I thought you hadn't seen it,
15 Counsel.
16 MR. MOXON: No, I did see it. I saw it the
17 other night. Mr. Lirot set it up in his office.
18 MR. LIROT: He was a guest in my office,
19 Judge.
20 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
21 MR. MOXON: I had to sit through the whole
22 thing, and I took careful notes of far, far more
23 connections to Scientology than I realized.
24 BY MR. MOXON:
25 Q But was that just a coincidence, this Mind Meter
Page 239
1 and the E-Meter?
2 A I said there were parallels.
3 Q So it wasn't supposed to resemble Scientology?
4 A It's a fictional group.
5 Q And the uniformed staff of the Scientific
6 Spiritualism, was that supposed to resemble the Sea
7 Organization?
8 A It's a fictional story.
9 Q Can you answer my question.
10 A Yes. I said it's a fictional story. It
11 resembles itself.
12 Q Was it supposed to resemble the Sea Organization?
13 A No. It was just a movie.
14 Q Okay. And the movie star in the movie, Tom
15 Travers, was that supposed to have some connection with Tom
16 Cruise?
17 A It's a composite character.
18 Q So the answer is yes or no?
19 A It's a composite character.
20 THE COURT: Answer --
21 A A composite character is drawn from many
22 different people.
23 Q Now, you've seen --
24 THE COURT: Counselor --
25 You didn't deny that when somebody told you
Page 240
1 to look in and make a movie about cults that
2 Scientology was one of them.
3 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, I didn't --
4 THE COURT: He really isn't denying there
5 are parallels here to be drawn, and certainly the
6 Church of Scientology was certainly one of those that
7 he was trying to portray.
8 Did you? I mean, and you don't deny that
9 now.
10 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am, I don't.
11 THE COURT: In fact, the real question is --
12 the only reason this is relevant -- and that's why,
13 really, all of this is irrelevant to this -- is
14 whether or not the average citizen on the street would
15 have a clue about this.
16 And I'm telling you that unless you were a
17 Scientologist or unless you had happened to be a judge
18 who got this case where you learn a lot about this
19 case or a lawyer involved in this case, you wouldn't
20 have any idea that this was connected to the Church of
21 Scientology. And that is going to be the jury pool
22 unless they happen to be members of the Church of
23 Scientology or ex-members of the Church of
24 Scientology. And they're not going to serve most
25 likely on this case because they're going to have a
Page 241
1 bias most likely.
2 MR. MOXON: Well, I've got a couple of
3 pieces of evidence that I think I would like to put in
4 through this witness that shows it a little more
5 strongly, I think, than the Court might see it.
6 BY MR. MOXON:
7 Q For example, on your Web page, Mr. Alexander,
8 didn't you have quotes from some media on your Web page to
9 say that it appears to be an exposé of Scientology?
10 THE COURT: It's already in evidence,
11 Mr. Moxon. All this stuff is in evidence, all this
12 stuff that Mr. Alexander said, all of this stuff he
13 said in the news. All of that came in. It came in
14 another time, didn't it? Isn't that all in evidence
15 here?
16 MR. MOXON: I filed it with the Court. We
17 didn't file it as exhibits or evidence --
18 THE COURT: No, I'm talking about in this
19 hearing. I remember reading about all these little
20 blips about what Scientology said, what Peter
21 Alexander said. I mean, it's all those things that
22 you all --
23 MR. WEINBERG: It was a motion --
24 THE COURT: -- defendants --
25 MR. WEINBERG: It was a motion that was
Page 242
1 filed during the hearing, but it wasn't offered in
2 evidence in the hearing.
3 THE COURT: I believe it was.
4 MR. MOXON: Well, the -- you're both right,
5 because I attempted to offer part of the Web page with
6 Mr. Merrett. But we didn't have the whole thing, and
7 so it never -- never went into evidence.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. MOXON: In fact, the Court will probably
10 recognize this next exhibit.
11 THE COURT: Will I recognize it because it's
12 already in evidence?
13 MR. MOXON: No. You'll recognize it because
14 I handed it up to you, and it was objected to because
15 it was incomplete. So I've got what's now a more
16 complete printout.
17 Which one?
18 THE CLERK: 180.
19 MR. MOXON: We'll mark it as No. 180, a
20 print-off from the Web page entitled The Profit.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q First of all, Mr. Alexander, is this --
23 MR. DANDAR: Object to the exhibit. It's
24 cut off. It's not full. They couldn't get the full
25 page on here for some reason.
Page 243
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 MR. DANDAR: Especially where the red tab
3 is.
4 MR. MOXON: Well, it goes over to the next
5 page. In fact a line --
6 THE COURT: I've seen this. You're right,
7 Mr. Moxon. I've seen this.
8 MR. MOXON: Yes.
9 THE COURT: I think it's already in
10 evidence. But maybe not. Maybe it was something that
11 was handed to me and I took home that wasn't in
12 evidence.
13 BY MR. MOXON:
14 Q The movie The Profit had a Web page. Isn't that
15 right, Mr. Alexander?
16 A That's right.
17 Q This is the Web page for your company?
18 A That's the Web page for Courage Productions, yes.
19 Q On page 2 of the exhibit, you have put a quote
20 from CBS News Channel 10, quote: "Played to a packed
21 house. It appears to some as an exposé of Scientology"?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who chose that quote to put up?
24 A Probably me. I don't recall specifically. Most
25 likely it was me.
Page 244
1 Q Further down, you pull another quote from ABC
2 News Channel 28, "A controversial film on Scientology makes
3 its debut in the bay area." Did you choose that quote
4 also?
5 A Yes. I think I chose them all.
6 Q You gave some interviews to several local media.
7 THE COURT: Now, that's in evidence. I know
8 that's in evidence. I took it all home and read it.
9 MR. MOXON: I agree, your Honor, that we
10 filed it. We filed it with a memorandum that I
11 provided to the Court prior to its reviewing the
12 movie.
13 THE COURT: Oh, I see. You're talking about
14 that memorandum -- maybe that is where I read it.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That's what happened. There
16 was in our list here 132, which I think was incomplete
17 and it wasn't accepted. But I'll have her see if she
18 can find 132.
19 THE COURT: I think Mr. Moxon is right. He
20 had filed -- when he kept hearing me say that this was
21 all irrelevant, they filed something and it had to do
22 with The Profit, and that's probably where I saw all
23 this. So I've seen it. It may not --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Here's 132, but it wasn't
25 complete and I don't think it got into evidence.
Page 245
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WEINBERG: So that's never in.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. WEINBERG: And you've got the more
5 complete one.
6 MR. MOXON: Marked as No. 181.
7 THE COURT: If you have a whole bunch of
8 them, get them all marked. We're going to get them
9 all in.
10 MR. MOXON: Okay. I only have two.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Get the other one marked.
12 MR. DANDAR: Objection, relevance and
13 outside the scope of direct.
14 THE COURT: Well, for their purpose, which
15 is they believe this would have some effect on a jury
16 pool, I'm going to allow it.
17 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as No. 182 an article
18 dated August 2nd, 2001, from the Metro and State
19 Section of the St. Petersburg Times.
20 MR. LIROT: What number are these?
21 MR. MOXON: 181 is --
22 MR. LIROT: The Web site?
23 MR. MOXON: -- the August 24th article, and
24 182 is the August 2nd article.
25 THE COURT: Are you offering these?
Page 246
1 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Over counsel's objection. Do
3 you still have an objection?
4 MR. DANDAR: I do, I do.
5 THE COURT: I'm going to let them in. I'm
6 going to let them in because that's their allegation,
7 that this affects the jury pool and that was the
8 purpose for the movie. So, I mean, I guess this is
9 their evidence.
10 MR. MOXON: It was also apparently to make
11 money for Mr. Alexander and Mr. Minton.
12 THE COURT: Well, that's what I would assume
13 the motive was, to tell you the truth, not to
14 interfere with the Lisa McPherson lawsuit.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
16 THE COURT: Also, I suspect that's what I'll
17 end up finding too, but I can't prevent them from
18 trying to make the case. They'll be received.
19 MR. WEINBERG: And that's 180, 181, 182?
20 THE COURT: 180, 181, 182, right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Now, on the -- when you were giving an interview
24 for the article which is No. 181 --
25 A Which one is that?
Page 247
1 Q It's the August 24th, 2001, article, Floridian.
2 A Okay.
3 Q Floridian is part of the St. Petersburg Times.
4 Is that right?
5 A Yes, I think so.
6 Q Okay. On the second page, first column, it
7 indicates that you told the reporter -- you suggested two
8 Web sites, telling the reporter to look it all up about
9 Scientology. Do you remember doing that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And the reporter here obviously got the
12 impression that you were talking about Scientology, didn't
13 he?
14 THE COURT: Now, that's kind of an improper
15 question. This will speak for itself. Let's not ask
16 this man what this reporter kind of thought.
17 BY MR. MOXON:
18 Q Did you intend to give the reporter the
19 impression that this was about Scientology?
20 A No.
21 Q You didn't make any misrepresentations to these
22 reporters, did you, when you were giving these interviews?
23 A No.
24 Q Now, the purpose of giving these interviews was
25 to encourage people to see the movie, right? To gain
Page 248
1 interest in the movie?
2 A Publicity.
3 Q Okay. Now, you indicated that Mr. Minton had no
4 interest in the movie?
5 A Very little.
6 Q But he paid for a number of people to play bit
7 parts in the movie for you, right?
8 A No.
9 Q Well, didn't he -- didn't he pay Mark Bunker's
10 salary?
11 THE COURT: Look, let's not try to equate
12 Mark Bunker's salary with paying a bit part in the
13 movie. If he got paid for his bit part in the
14 movie -- I don't know what the relevance is, but you
15 can ask that.
16 BY MR. MOXON:
17 Q Well, none of the people that worked for LMT were
18 paid by you, were they.
19 A Not to my knowledge, no.
20 Q The people that appeared in the movie that I'm
21 aware of in my view of it were Jesse Prince --
22 THE COURT: We don't need to go over that
23 again. It's in the record. We're going to have to
24 move on. It's in this record.
25 BY MR. MOXON:
Page 249
1 Q Okay. This movie was played in Clearwater, you
2 said, at a dinner theater?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Why did you decide to play it only in Pinellas
5 county, since your office was in Tampa and you lived in
6 Tampa? Why did you -- why did you play this in Pinellas
7 county?
8 A Larry Greenbaum, who owned the theater, was one
9 of two theater owners who came to see the screening we had
10 in Tampa, and he wanted to show it.
11 Q You played it to over 2100 people when it was in
12 Clearwater, right?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You also went to the owner of the Royalty Theater
15 in Clearwater and asked him to play the movie there too,
16 didn't you?
17 A No.
18 Q Socrates Charas, do you remember talking to him?
19 A I remember talking to him.
20 Q Okay. And you asked him to play the movie?
21 A No.
22 Q Were you talking to him about the movie?
23 A He was talking about it.
24 Q Okay. Didn't you in fact tell Mr. Charas that
25 you would buy out the whole theater for an entire month and
Page 250
1 pay for all the seats --
2 A No.
3 Q -- if he would play the movie there?
4 A No.
5 Q Now, you've testified that you're not an
6 anti-Scientologist, correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And you showed some pictures of some people that
9 were picketing outside of the Courage Productions area when
10 the movie was being played that had a picture of a -- or, a
11 reference to Nazi. Do you remember that? One of the
12 handouts. You had a handout that said something -- you
13 don't like KKK and Nazis. Do you recall that?
14 THE COURT: Those were the handouts that
15 were being handed out by those who were there to
16 picket them.
17 MR. MOXON: Yes. This is a foundational
18 question.
19 THE COURT: No, that's not the way you were
20 laying the foundation, Mr. Moxon. You were making it
21 appear as if they were handing out these -- these
22 things.
23 MR. DANDAR: That's what I thought. I was
24 waiting to see what Mr. Alexander handed out.
25 THE COURT: I thought he was trying to say
Page 251
1 Mr. Alexander was handing out the KKK --
2 BY MR. MOXON:
3 Q I'm sorry, I want to make reference to this.
4 Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 80 is a handout, that says, "Do you
5 think neo-Nazis are nuts?" Do you remember that?
6 A That's right. That was handed out by Richard
7 Hurst and the other gentleman.
8 Q You said some Scientologists handed that out. So
9 that's what you said, right?
10 A That's right.
11 Q And you found that to be highly offensive?
12 A Yes.
13 Q But now when you were picketing, you were
14 picketing the Church --
15 A Let me correct --
16 Q Well --
17 THE COURT: No, let him finish.
18 A I would say I found it to be highly offensive,
19 but I also found it to be, I have to tell you, highly
20 amusing.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q Okay. Did you find it amusing, when you were
23 picketing with Minton, having Nazi signs in front of the
24 Church?
25 A I didn't do that.
Page 252
1 MR. MOXON: I'd like to show a very brief
2 video clip of Mr. Alexander out in front of the Church
3 with Mr. Minton during one of his pickets.
4 (The videotape was played. Because of
5 background noise of traffic, the tape is not
6 transcribable.)
7 MR. DANDAR: I hope the court reporter
8 wasn't trying to take that down.
9 THE REPORTER: I started, and I stopped.
10 MR. DANDAR: I object because those signs
11 had nothing to do with Nazis or KKK.
12 THE COURT: I know they didn't, but just
13 because -- I mean, I suppose the idea is to see
14 whether or not he is an anti-Scientologist. His sign
15 that I saw, to "Find out What Scientology Doesn't Want
16 You to Know."
17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I misspoke. The
18 sign, which I'll hand to the witness and hand to the
19 Court, we'll mark as Exhibit No. 181, is another
20 picket by Mr. Alexander.
21 THE CLERK: This is 183.
22 MR. MOXON: 183, excuse me.
23 THE COURT: That's Mr. Minton with a Nazi
24 sign. That's not Mr. Alexander.
25 BY MR. MOXON:
Page 253
1 Q Is that -- who is in this picture, Mr. Alexander?
2 A That's me, Mr. Minton, and Patricia --
3 Q Okay.
4 A -- Greenway.
5 Q All right. Mr. Minton is holding a Nazi sign.
6 You're holding a sign saying "Lisa's Blood on Scientology's
7 Hands"?
8 A That's right.
9 Q With two bloody hand prints?
10 A Right. But I would like to respond to that tape,
11 if I may.
12 Q Yes. I'll get to the tape in just a second,
13 because I misspoke.
14 THE COURT: No. You put it in the record.
15 Now let him respond to it.
16 Go on ahead.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, I was a little ticked
18 off in that tape because the person with the camera
19 was a Scientology OSA staff member named Joe Neil
20 O'Reilly and the day before that tape was taken, Joe
21 Neil O'Reilly was across the street from me when I was
22 walking around with one of these picket signs. And he
23 was kind of down the block. And so I walked down
24 there because Bob said, "Hey, what is that guy doing?"
25 So I walked down there, and I said, "So what
Page 254
1 are you up to?"
2 This guy starts recounting stuff from my
3 supposedly confidential Pre-Clear folder and yelling
4 it at me, you know, stuff to embarrass me or
5 intimidate me or something like that. And I have to
6 say it really ticked me off.
7 So I got in a big argument with Joe Neil
8 O'Reilly, and he challenged me to a fistfight. And, I
9 have to say this because I'm under oath, I accepted.
10 And so we walked around the corner. And he changed
11 his mind. That's all I can say.
12 And so when he came back with that video
13 camera, yes, I was very angry, because supposedly,
14 according to the Church of Scientology, they don't do
15 that. They don't reveal things out of people's
16 confidential Pre-Clear folders. But apparently they
17 had briefed Joe Neil O'Reilly on that, and he was just
18 happy as all heck to yell it at me. And I resented
19 that, and I still resent it.
20 Thank you.
21 BY MR. MOXON:
22 Q That picket that we showed on the video just
23 there, that was you and Patricia Greenway?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q That was right outside the Church dining hall,
Page 255
1 where the buses were coming and dropping off Church staff?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And did you hear what she said on that, the
4 beginning of that video before the bus noise started?
5 A No.
6 MR. MOXON: Can you play just the beginning
7 of that again?
8 THE COURT: What difference does it make?
9 BY MR. MOXON:
10 Q All right. She said, "Tell Miscavige to shove it
11 up his ass." Do you remember that?
12 A Yes. That was in response to Joe Neil O'Reilly
13 and his violation of my PC folders, which you guys say are
14 supposed to be confidential, but which obviously aren't.
15 Q How many pickets did you engage in of the Church?
16 A Well, let's see.
17 THE COURT: Doesn't have to be exact.
18 THE WITNESS: Maybe it's about ten, your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 A About ten.
22 BY MR. MOXON:
23 Q Ten pickets?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Those -- the launching-off point for those
Page 256
1 pickets was the Lisa McPherson Trust?
2 A Sometimes.
3 Q Kind of a staging ground?
4 A Sometimes.
5 Q You remember also testifying in this case that,
6 when you gave your testimony, that you want the Church to
7 lose the case, right? Do you recall that?
8 A I don't recall it.
9 Q You do want the Church to lose the case, right?
10 A I think I said I want justice to be done. And
11 from what I know, yes, you guys are guilty.
12 MR. MOXON: I'm not going to mark this as an
13 exhibit. I just want to refresh the witness's
14 recollection.
15 THE COURT: If you want, you can read him
16 page/line from his deposition, page/line, question and
17 answer.
18 BY MR. MOXON:
19 Q Page 187 of your deposition.
20 Question: "Do you want to see Flag lose this
21 case or not?"
22 Answer: "Absolutely."
23 Do you remember that, Mr. Alexander?
24 A I don't remember it, no. It doesn't mean that
25 it's not there. Can I see that?
Page 257
1 THE COURT: Now, you can refresh his memory.
2 BY MR. MOXON:
3 Q Sure (handing).
4 A Yep, that's what I said.
5 MR. DANDAR: What page was that?
6 MR. MOXON: 187.
7 MR. DANDAR: Can't find it. What deposition
8 date?
9 THE COURT: Do you mean there was more than
10 one deposition of this witness?
11 MR. DANDAR: (Nodded affirmatively.) Yes.
12 MR. MOXON: The first deposition was very
13 short. It was suspended after --
14 THE COURT: What's the date?
15 MR. MOXON: -- fifty pages. April 14th,
16 2000.
17 THE COURT: Fifty pages would be a fairly
18 long deposition of most witnesses in most cases.
19 MR. MOXON: Not this one.
20 MR. DANDAR: So when was the second
21 deposition? Oh, never mind. I've got it. I'm sorry.
22 You're reading from the second deposition. Am I
23 correct, Mr. Moxon?
24 MR. MOXON: That's right. The second
25 deposition was May 16th, 2000.
Page 258
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q Now, you don't claim to be an expert on the
3 practice of Scientology, do you?
4 A No.
5 Q How many times have you been to LMT?
6 A Oh, jeez. I actually have no idea. Many.
7 Q Give me an estimate.
8 A I have no idea. Quite a few.
9 Q Fifteen?
10 A More than that, sure.
11 THE COURT: 50, 60? I mean --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it could be like that,
13 50, 60. I don't know, something like that.
14 BY MR. MOXON:
15 Q Now, let me go back for a moment to a Sea
16 Organization question. You mentioned some people who are
17 staff members at Flag.
18 A Right.
19 Q Like Sonjia Jacques, right?
20 A Right.
21 Q Do you know what her rank was in the Sea Org?
22 A No.
23 Q And you had a course supervisor you mentioned.
24 You mentioned you took a course at Flag, at Sandcastle?
25 A Yes.
Page 259
1 Q Do you know what the rank was of the person who
2 ran that course?
3 THE COURT: I don't think he knows anything
4 except it is his belief that David Miscavige is the
5 top. I mean, if that's wrong, somebody from your
6 organization put something in evidence, and that'll
7 fix it. So, really, the rest of it is kind of --
8 what's the point?
9 MR. MOXON: Just that the ranks have
10 absolutely nothing to do with it. Mr. Dandar has gone
11 on about the Sea Org and the ranks and he had this
12 witness testify to it, that he was a captain in the
13 Sea Org and from that position controlled something.
14 That's just absolutely not true.
15 THE COURT: As I said, all it takes is put
16 something on from the Church to say that David
17 Miscavige is not in charge or he is not the head of
18 the Sea Org, and there you'll have something
19 different. I mean, this is silly to keep questioning
20 this witness, who has some very limited knowledge, who
21 felt as a Church member for 20 years that David
22 Miscavige was the head of the Sea Org. If he's wrong,
23 he's wrong. But we don't need to go through a
24 harangue for an hour about it, people's ranks he
25 knows.
Page 260
1 BY MR. MOXON:
2 Q Was it your testimony that Ken Dandar told you
3 that -- when he got a check in March of 2002 that he told
4 you about it?
5 A He hadn't gotten the check.
6 Q But he told you, "I'm getting this check"?
7 A He wanted to get more money, yes, for the case.
8 Q He told you he was getting a check from Minton?
9 A He said that it was coming from someone else.
10 Q So it wasn't from Bob Minton. It was someone
11 else?
12 A Yes. It sounded like somebody else in Europe.
13 Q So Ken Dandar told you, "I'm getting a check from
14 somebody in Europe who has nothing to do with Robert
15 Minton"?
16 A It didn't have nothing to do with Robert Minton.
17 It sounded like Bob was influencing this person or, you
18 know, it was -- I don't know what it was, but that's what
19 it sounded like. Bob was connected in there, but the check
20 sounded like it came from somebody else, according to Ken.
21 Q Now, you weren't an employee of Mr. Dandar at
22 that time, were you?
23 A No.
24 Q Do you have any idea why he was telling you
25 something that he testified to he didn't even tell his own
Page 261
1 employees about?
2 A We were friends with him, and we would discuss
3 the situation and try and help him out.
4 Q Did he tell you about other checks he got from
5 Mr. Minton?
6 A No.
7 Q Did he tell you that he had any kind of
8 arrangement with Mr. Minton to receive some checks?
9 A Other than that discussion, which was very
10 late -- I think that was the last check that he got from
11 whatever that source was -- I really didn't know anything
12 about what Ken's finances were, other than Bob telling me
13 one time, you know, he's going to cause -- he had a funny
14 phrase on it, "cause a check" to be sent to him.
15 Q When was this call?
16 A That was like -- I'd say it was about the first
17 week of May of 2000.
18 Q You and Bob weren't really that -- have a close,
19 personal relationship, did you?
20 A We were pretty good friends.
21 Q So you testified that Bob told you about some
22 alleged criminal activity he had been involved with in not
23 paying his taxes?
24 A Yes.
25 Q I assume you were close enough friends that he
Page 262
1 would tell you something that he testified he didn't tell
2 anybody else about?
3 A Well, I don't know what else he's testified to,
4 but I know what he told me.
5 Q In fact, your relationship with Bob was pretty
6 strained, wasn't it? You and Patricia were forced off the
7 board by him and rarely spoke to him?
8 A Well, that happened much later.
9 Q All right. And you say Mr. Minton had confided
10 in you all about his relationship with Mr. Dandar too,
11 right?
12 THE COURT: He didn't --
13 A I didn't say that.
14 THE COURT: -- say that at all. He
15 testified to some very specific things, and you may
16 cross-examine about those things. He did not say
17 that.
18 BY MR. MOXON:
19 Q Well, did Mr. Dandar ask you if you could testify
20 about this -- about Mr. Minton's control of the case?
21 A He showed me or I saw Bob's affidavit that was
22 filed before this case started. And he said, "What do you
23 know about any of this?"
24 And I just went down the list. I said: Well,
25 that's not true, that's not true, that's not true. I was
Page 263
1 there, I was there, I was there, I was there.
2 It was all me talking.
3 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you what the issues were in
4 this hearing?
5 A Having to do with his being disqualified as
6 counsel and having to do with the case being dismissed is
7 what I thought I understood, yes.
8 Q By the way, you mentioned this concept about not
9 getting free service in Scientology?
10 A Right.
11 Q Were you aware of the volunteer minister corps
12 that goes around and gives assists and --
13 A Well, I'm aware that that doesn't apply for
14 anybody on Flag lines up the top. Yes, I'm well aware of
15 that.
16 Q So they give free services to anybody except
17 someone like you?
18 A They give free services to people to get them in
19 the door so they can hit them for money later.
20 Q Who told you that?
21 A That's my observation from having been in
22 Scientology for 20 years and giving them a million dollars.
23 Q So you have absolutely no knowledge of any
24 Scientologist giving any free service or assist to anyone
25 who is already a Scientologist?
Page 264
1 A Not a staff member at Flag delivering a service
2 for free to a member of the public, no.
3 Q You don't know of it.
4 A I don't know of it, and I know there was a policy
5 that said that you would be put in a condition of treason
6 for that.
7 Q What's the name of this alleged policy?
8 A An HCOPL. Boy, what was the name of that? I
9 don't remember the name of it.
10 THE COURT: You're going to have to stop
11 that. It's bad for the record, Mr. Moxon. It's a bad
12 habit of yours. I see it in the deposition. If
13 you're going to be a lawyer in my courtroom -- and you
14 are an invitee here -- you're going to have to stop
15 that.
16 MR. MOXON: I understand.
17 BY MR. MOXON:
18 Q You can't point to a single policy anywhere in
19 any of the millions of words in Scientology that tells
20 anyone to lie, can you.
21 A I saw something once. I don't know if it's a
22 policy. It was called TRL, TR lies. And I did not see
23 that while I was in Scientology. I saw that afterwards.
24 And it was a training routine to teach people how to lie
25 with a straight face. And it looked like a Scientology
Page 265
1 document, but I had never seen it when I was in
2 Scientology.
3 Q Twenty years you were in Scientology, right?
4 A No, I'd never seen it.
5 Q Have you ever heard of a book called The Way to
6 Happiness?
7 A Yes.
8 Q It was a book written by L. Ron Hubbard and
9 distributed by Church members?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are you familiar with the precepts in there?
12 A Somewhat, yes.
13 Q One of them is -- No. 7, in fact -- is "seek to
14 live with the truth." Do you remember that?
15 A Well, I don't remember it, but I don't doubt that
16 it's in there.
17 Q This is kind of like a -- roughly comparable to a
18 Ten Commandments idea, correct?
19 A Correct. The public information about
20 Scientology is very high-minded. It's only the OSA staff
21 members and the upper management who seem to engage in
22 these deceptive and abusive practices.
23 Q And "do not bear false witness" is another one.
24 Do you remember that?
25 A Yes, I do. You should tell that to David
Page 266
1 Miscavige.
2 MR. MOXON: Move to strike, your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Sustained.
4 BY MR. MOXON:
5 Q "Don't do anything illegal." That's another one?
6 A That might be one of them, yes.
7 Q It is one of them, right?
8 A I don't know. I don't have the book in front of
9 me.
10 Q Well, I'll show it to you.
11 A Okay.
12 Q It's No. 9.
13 A What page? Sorry.
14 MR. MOXON: Forgot the most important person
15 (handing document to Court).
16 BY MR. MOXON:
17 Q Page 27.
18 A Okay. Well, I would say based on this that the
19 entire upper management, the entire OSA staff, needs to be
20 comm ev'd and put on the RPF, don't you think?
21 MR. MOXON: Move to strike.
22 MR. DANDAR: Well, he's asking him the
23 question.
24 THE COURT: Yes, I think that's fair. I
25 mean, you know, you asked him the question.
Page 267
1 MR. MOXON: I asked him the question doesn't
2 it say, one of the specific rules, "don't do anything
3 illegal."
4 THE WITNESS: That's what it says, and
5 that's my response. And a comm ev is a committee of
6 evidence that would be the equivalent of a Scientology
7 trial, and the RPF is like -- well, pseudo prison camp
8 kind of situation.
9 THE COURT: Trust me, sir, I know more about
10 RPF than I ever wanted to know. If I don't know
11 something, as you can see, I'm quite happy to ask. If
12 I don't ask, that means I don't want to know or I
13 already do know.
14 THE WITNESS: Very good.
15 BY MR. MOXON:
16 Q Did Mr. Dandar, by the way, tell you that --
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What page were you
18 reading from?
19 MR. MOXON: Well, it was page 27, "don't do
20 anything illegal." Page 23 is "seek to live with the
21 truth."
22 We'll mark this as next in order, which I
23 believe is 184. Is that correct?
24 THE CLERK: Yes.
25 BY MR. MOXON:
Page 268
1 Q In your meetings with Mr. Dandar, did he tell you
2 that he had hundreds of telephone calls with staff at LMT?
3 THE COURT: We're not going to go there with
4 this particular witness. Why would I care what he
5 told him about that, whether he told him or whether he
6 didn't?
7 BY MR. MOXON:
8 Q Does Ms. Greenway now work for Mr. Dandar?
9 A No.
10 Q You and Ms. Greenway are a couple, right? She's
11 your girlfriend?
12 A That's right.
13 Q You live together?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Okay. You don't know whether or not she's been
16 working in Mr. Dandar's office?
17 A She doesn't work there.
18 Q She volunteers?
19 A She's a friend. She goes over and helps him
20 sometimes.
21 Q Okay.
22 THE COURT: Is this -- did you give one to
23 the clerk besides this? Is this mine?
24 MR. MOXON: That's yours, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Okay. What was the number of
Page 269
1 this, Madam Clerk, the booklet?
2 MR. MOXON: It's 184.
3 THE COURT: Thank you.
4 MR. MOXON: Offer this as in evidence, your
5 Honor.
6 THE COURT: I think you already did, and I
7 think it's in.
8 MR. WEINBERG: He actually hadn't, but --
9 THE COURT: Didn't he?
10 Madam Clerk, did you show that as in?
11 THE CLERK: He just introduced it, but I
12 never got a copy.
13 THE COURT: She didn't get one, she said.
14 MR. MOXON: Oh, I'm sorry.
15 THE COURT: Now, that's really the most
16 important person.
17 MR. WEINBERG: It's the second-most-
18 important person.
19 THE COURT: It's very important once it
20 leaves me --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 THE COURT: -- that it be there.
23 BY MR. MOXON:
24 Q Mr. Alexander, do you know the amount of the
25 check that Mr. Dandar received in March of 2002 from
Page 270
1 Mr. Minton?
2 A No.
3 MR. MOXON: That's all I have, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Redirect?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yes, quickly.
6 THE COURT: If you quickly finish, we'll
7 call it a day.
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q Did I ever tell you any of the amount of money
11 that Mr. Minton gave me?
12 A No.
13 Q The basic communication course that every
14 Scientologist takes, does that teach you how to answer a
15 question without really telling the answer?
16 A Yes. You're taught basically to just handle
17 somebody's origination --
18 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. That's
19 outside the scope of my --
20 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
21 A You're taught basically to handle somebody's
22 origination and go back and do what you want to do with
23 them. And the handling is just, okay, blah, blah, blah,
24 back and forth. Now I'm going to get my question answered.
25 BY MR. DANDAR:
Page 271
1 Q Do you recall in your 20 years of Scientology
2 Mr. Hubbard teaching about lying to people?
3 A I do remember a concept called an acceptable
4 truth. You know, I just remembered that now. There is a
5 concept called an acceptable truth, that you can tell
6 somebody what is an acceptable truth, as opposed to just
7 objective, flat-out truth. Yes, there is something in
8 there. But I don't remember where.
9 Q Do you recall Mr. Hubbard himself giving big
10 lectures on lying to someone in order to control them?
11 A No, I don't.
12 Q Okay. Do you recall any more about acceptable
13 truth?
14 A Just that, you know, it was sort of like the
15 little white lie theory, that you could tell somebody
16 something that wasn't quite true but that would handle the
17 situation with them and then move on to some other thing
18 you wanted to do with them.
19 Q Okay. And The Way to Happiness, I saw in there
20 it says that "do not commit murder." And you know that's
21 in the Ten Commandments as well, correct?
22 A Correct.
23 Q And that certainly didn't stop the Inquisition,
24 did it.
25 A No, certainly not.
Page 272
1 MR. DANDAR: All this?
2 THE COURT: Maybe you could just save it for
3 argument.
4 MR. DANDAR: I think I will. I think I
5 will. That's all I have.
6 THE COURT: I mean, I see a whole lot of
7 little blue tabs there, and I'm assuming you're going
8 to get into parts of this, say does it also say this,
9 does it also say this. It's in evidence.
10 MR. DANDAR: It'll speak for itself. What's
11 the exhibit number?
12 THE COURT: The exhibit number is 184.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
14 MR. DANDAR: Then I'll save it for argument.
15 THE COURT: I appreciate that. It's 4:00
16 something on Friday afternoon.
17 Recross?
18 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir, for
20 coming. You may step down, and you may be excused.
21 Now, are we done for the day?
22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
23 THE COURT: Are we done for the week?
24 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
25 MR. WEINBERG: If we're done for a day,
Page 273
1 we're done for the week.
2 THE COURT: All right. We'll see you -- I
3 can't remember. Are we meeting Monday?
4 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
5 THE COURT: See you Monday. Have a nice
6 weekend, everyone.
7 (The proceedings ended at 4:07 p.m.)
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1 STATE OF FLORIDA
2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS
3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate
4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that
6 the transcript is a true record.
7 WITNESS MY HAND this 8th day of June, 2002, at
8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida.
9
10 _________________________________
Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR
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