Dell Liebreich Deposition

April 30 2002 / pages 1 - 116

vs.      CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20
DELL LIEBREICH, individually and
as Personal Representative of
the Estate of Lisa McPherson,
BEFORE:      The Honorable W. Douglas Baird
Circuit Judge
PLACE:       315 Court Street
Clearwater, Florida
DATE:        April 30, 2002
TIME:        11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m.
REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
Registered Professional Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit
Pages 1 - 116
(727) 443-0992
1 APPEARANCES 2 3 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE 4 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS Post Office Box 1368 5 Clearwater, Florida 33757 (727) 461-1818 6 Attorneys for Plaintiff 7 8 LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE 9 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A. 112 East Street, Suite B 10 Tampa, Florida 33602 11 Attorney for the Defendants 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3
1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 THE COURT: All right. This is the 4 continuation of the hearing that was a week ago 5 Friday. And has the plaintiff completed its 6 case? 7 MR. ROSEN: No, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: You still have some witnesses, 9 right? 10 MR. ROSEN: Yes, Your Honor. 11 Your Honor, may I also start by noting 12 that because we finished at a very late hour, I 13 neglected to, after my examination of 14 Mr. Dandar, to move -- formally move -- into 15 evidence the documents that were identified by 16 Mr. Dandar and by Mr. Minton earlier last time 17 through their examination. 18 And I would therefore hereby move to 19 receipt into evidence of Exhibits 5, 6, 8, 9, 20 11, 12, 13, 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 26, 33, 41, 42, 21 43, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, those portions of 22 Exhibit 17 which is a deposition transcript 23 that were read out in this courtroom in the 24 hearing and those portions of Exhibit 27, 25 deposition transcript, that were read out in 4
1 this courtroom. 2 I move the admission of those documents. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, with the exception of 4 Exhibit 42 which was the affidavit of 5 Mr. Minton, we have no objection. 6 MR. ROSEN: I don't offer the exhibit for 7 the truth of the matter set forth in the 8 affidavit. 9 THE COURT: Then why are they relevant? 10 MR. ROSEN: This is affidavit that 11 Mr. Minton testified Mr. Dandar had him sign 12 which was untrue that denied that there was an 13 agreement to donate the funds, the bulk of the 14 proceeds in the wrongful death case. 15 Exhibit 42 was the affidavit in which 16 Mr. Minton testified to Mr. Dandar asked him to 17 sign that was false. So I don't offer it for 18 the truth of the statement in the affidavit. 19 THE COURT: Just for the fact that it was 20 executed. 21 MR. ROSEN: That's correct. 22 THE COURT: What's the basis for your 23 objection? 24 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, first of all, the 25 affidavit is not one that emanated from this 5
1 case. 2 Second of all, I think it was attempted to 3 be authenticated through Mr. Minton, but we 4 clearly showed that it was not what it was 5 purported to be. 6 It was not in any way produced by 7 Mr. Dandar's office, and I think that that's 8 unequivocal. 9 So I think rather than being asserted for 10 the truth of the matters within the affidavit, 11 it's being asserted from the back door for an 12 attestation of what's in the affidavit not 13 being true, and I think the same rule of 14 evidence would apply. We just don't think that 15 it's something that should go in based on those 16 objections. 17 THE COURT: I will accept it into evidence 18 and give it the weight that I think it deserves 19 based on the testimony and circumstances. 20 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, our next witness 21 is Dell Liebreich. 22 THE COURT: Before we get too far into 23 this, would counsel approach briefly, please. 24 (Thereupon, a bench conference was held 25 off the record.) 6
1 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I would like to 2 call Dell Liebreich. 3 THE BAILIFF: Right this way, ma'am. 4 Stand right here and face the judge. Raise 5 your right hand and be sworn in, please. 6 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to the 7 witness.) 8 MR. ROSEN: May I approach her? 9 Your Honor, I've handed -- let the record 10 reflect I've handed you and the witness a 11 series of folders with exhibits. 12 Some of them are additional copies of 13 exhibits that were previously submitted last 14 time; and just so that Your Honor doesn't have 15 to plow through the old file, you've got 16 additional copies. That's the reason for the 17 redundancy. 18 19 THEREUPON, 20 DELL LIEBREICH, called as a witness, having 21 been duly sworn, testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. ROSEN: 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, can you leave those closed in front 25 of you until I ask you to open them? 7
1 A. Oh, sure. 2 Q. Thank you, ma'am. 3 Ms. Liebreich, you are the personal 4 representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. You know that -- you were in court for the hearing 7 on the 19th of April; were you not? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. For that entire hearing? 10 A. Well, except for maybe a few minutes to go out. 11 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 12 A. Except for maybe a few minutes to the restroom. 13 Q. Okay. You are aware, ma'am, that one of the 14 issues in this case is whether the money that was provided 15 by Mr. Minton, including the money from the Swiss banks, 16 whether that was provided to the Estate for the Estate's 17 benefit or whether it was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar. 18 You're aware that that's an issue in this case? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And do you have any knowledge on that subject? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And would you tell us what your knowledge is, 23 ma'am. 24 A. It's a personal loan to Mr. Dandar. 25 Q. And that knowledge is derived from a conversation 8
1 that you had with Mr. Dandar? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. How long ago was that? 4 A. Well, from the beginning. 5 Q. When was the beginning? What year? 6 A. '97. '97, I believe it was. 7 Q. Say again? 8 A. I believe it was 1997. 9 Q. Okay. So let me see If I understand this. From 10 the very beginning, Mr. Dandar told you that this 2 million 11 dollars -- that the money, as the money came in 12 from Mr. Minton, was not for the Estate but was a personal 13 loan to Mr. Dandar, right? He told you that. 14 A. It was a personal loan to be used to pay bills for 15 the Estate, is what I understood. 16 Q. To pay what bills? 17 A. For the Estate or whatever. 18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object to any 19 attorney/client communication subject to this 20 question. 21 MR. ROSEN: She's already testified to 22 this fifteen times. 23 THE COURT: So you're claiming a waiver? 24 MR. ROSEN: Yeah. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, she hasn't testified to 9
1 this. She hasn't waived the privilege. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified to the purpose 4 that these loans were loans to Mr. Dandar, personal loans? 5 Have you testified to that in this case? 6 A. I don't remember whether I have or not. 7 Q. Do you remember testifying April 20th of 2002 in a 8 deposition that these loans were loans -- that the monies 9 from Mr. Minton were personal loans to Mr. Dandar? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. I think she 11 needs to be shown the deposition. 12 MR. ROSEN: Do you remember testifying to 13 that? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. If you show 15 it to me -- 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. It's ten days ago, ma'am. Are you saying you 18 don't remember your testimony to this effect ten days ago? 19 A. What was your question again? 20 Q. Do you remember testifying at deposition ten days 21 ago -- Saturday, April 20th -- that the monies from 22 Mr. Minton were a loan to Mr. Dandar, a personal loan to 23 Mr. Dandar? Do you remember that? 24 A. I probably did. 25 Q. Was it probably true or probably not true? 10
1 A. It's probably true. 2 Q. Uh-huh. So let's see If I understand this. 3 From the very beginning in October of 4 '97 -- sometime in '97 -- Mr. Dandar has told you from time 5 to time when he receives money, right? 6 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. That's 7 privileged. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. LIROT: It mischaracterizes the 10 evidence as well. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. Now, is it your understanding -- your 13 understanding that this was a personal -- that these were 14 personal loans to Mr. Dandar, is that understanding based 15 on anything other than what Mr. Dandar told you? 16 A. Was it based on anything else? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Well, that's the way I understood it. 19 Q. Well, let me rephrase the question, perhaps. Did 20 anybody else ever tell you that these loans -- these monies 21 from Mr. Minton were loans to Mr. Dandar personally? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Do you recall having conversations with Mr. Minton 24 on the subject? 25 A. I don't recall having any conversations with 11
1 Mr. Minton about the loan. 2 Q. Do you recall thanking Mr. Minton for his donation 3 to, quote, the Estate? 4 A. I thanked him many times for the money that he put 5 up. 6 Q. Do you recall thanking him for the Estate for the 7 money that he has donated to the Estate? Do you recall 8 that, ma'am? 9 A. I might have said that. I don't recall. 10 Q. Well, might it have been true when you said it? 11 A. Well, I thanked him for his donations. As far as 12 I'm concerned, it was a loan to Dan, but... 13 Q. Okay. You understand that a second issue in this 14 case is whether or not Mr. Dandar is free to use this money 15 for his own -- any purpose he wants, including buying 16 himself a car, or whether he has to use this money from 17 Mr. Minton only for the expenses of the Estate in the 18 wrongful death case? You understand that's an issue in 19 this case? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge on this subject? 22 A. He can use it any way he wants to, is what my 23 understanding is. 24 Q. Okay. And is your understanding based on anything 25 other than your conversations with Mr. Dandar? 12
1 A. I believe I've heard Mr. Minton state that he 2 could spend it for whatever he wanted to. 3 Q. When did you hear Mr. Minton say that? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Well, can you recall what year it was? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Well, ma'am, help us out. Sometime between 1997 8 and April 30th, 2002? Do you think you could help us out 9 and try to remember? 10 A. He probably said it more than once. I don't 11 recall. 12 Q. Can you remember any occasion on which you heard 13 him say that? 14 A. No, no, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Liebreich, let's see If I've got 16 an understanding of your testimony. 17 As far as you know, based on your conversations 18 with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar could use that two million 19 dollars any way he wanted to use it. He could buy a car 20 with it. He could buy a house with it, buy his wife an 21 anniversary present, right? Any way he wanted to, right? 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. These are statements 23 from Mr. Dandar to the client. 24 MR. ROSEN: No. I'm asking about her 25 understanding. 13
1 MR. LIROT: Same thing, Judge. It's 2 privileged. 3 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe so. 4 THE COURT: I think she's waived that. 5 MR. ROSEN: Yeah. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Is that your understanding? 8 A. He could spend it any way he wanted to. 9 Q. And he wasn't required to spend one nickel on 10 behalf of the Estate, right? Look at me, ma'am, not 11 Mr. Dandar. 12 A. Do I have to look at you? 13 Q. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't you look over 14 that way instead of looking at Mr. Dandar. 15 Did you hear my question, Ms. Liebreich? 16 A. What is your question? 17 Q. He wasn't required to spend any part of it for the 18 Estate, was he? Is that your understanding? 19 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 20 Q. Okay. Now, what is your understanding, ma'am, on 21 the subject of who was to repay this loan? And let me be 22 more specific. 23 Assuming that there was a recovery in the 24 wrongful death case, either by verdict or settlement, was 25 Mr. Minton's monies supposed to be repaid to him? 14
1 MR. LIROT: Objection. Lack of foundation, 2 speculation. 3 BY MR. ROSEN: 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject? 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject of 8 whether there was an agreement or understanding to repay 9 Mr. Minton the money he advanced out of any settlement or 10 judgment? 11 A. Mr. Minton said that if there was money left over, 12 if we had more than we wanted, that he felt like he should 13 be repaid. 14 Q. And who was supposed to repay him? 15 A. Well, Ken would repay him. 16 Q. You're sure the Estate wasn't going to repay him 17 the money? 18 A. I don't know that much about the law. I don't 19 know. 20 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified under oath that 21 it was the Estate's obligation to repay the loan from 22 Mr. Minton? 23 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. 24 MR. ROSEN: Have you or have you not? 25 THE COURT: Just a moment. State your 15
1 objection. 2 MR. LIROT: The objection is if he's 3 asking about testimony under oath, he has to 4 identify the date, time and place of such 5 testimony. 6 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe I have to do 7 that until I impeach her, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Well, that's the beginning of 9 the process. 10 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will come back to it. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. You heard testimony last time you were in court 13 about these two Swiss bank checks, one for $500,000 in May 14 of 2000 and another one for $250,000 in March of this year? 15 You heard that testimony? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever give you an accounting of the 18 monies that he had received from Mr. Minton and from these 19 two bank checks? 20 A. It wasn't necessary. 21 Q. Is the answer, no, he never gave you an 22 accounting? Is that the answer, Ms. Liebreich? 23 A. That's what I'm saying. 24 Q. Is it correct, Ms. Liebreich, that Mr. Dandar 25 never told you how much money he had received? 16
1 A. He has told me how much money he received. 2 Q. When did he tell you that? 3 A. Every time he received money, he told me. 4 Q. So that when he received the two Swiss bank 5 checks, he told you at the time he received them? 6 A. Yes, he did. 7 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, do you recall being deposed 8 one day after the last hearing before Judge Baird, 9 Saturday, the 20th of April of this year; do you recall 10 being deposed? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I've put in front of you Exhibit 61 which is the 13 transcript of your deposition of that date. I'll read from 14 Page 311. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, objection. She's not yet 16 had a chance to review it. We did not waive 17 the signing of this deposition. She's been out 18 of town. She hasn't had a chance to review 19 this deposition, nor has she signed it at this 20 point in time. There's been no errata sheet, 21 so it's premature... 22 THE COURT: Well, I think he can show it 23 to her and she can determine whether or not 24 those were the questions and those were, you 25 know, her answers. 17
1 And if she has some objection or some 2 dispute as to whether or not the court reporter 3 accurately, you know, transcribed her 4 responses, then we can deal with that. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. I direct your attention to Page 311 starting with 7 the question on Line 7: 8 Question, "When did you last receive an 9 accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of the 10 Estate?" 11 Answer appears on Line 19, "It's been in the 12 last few days, last week or so." 13 "Well, you don't mean sitting in court 14 yesterday when you heard about the two million dollars from 15 Mr. Minton. Is that what you're referring to?" 16 Answer, "Yes." 17 Did you give those answers to those questions, 18 ma'am? 19 A. That's when I understood how much he had paid? I 20 knew before that. 21 Q. Did you give these answers, ma'am, to these 22 questions? 23 A. I haven't had a chance to look over this and 24 correct it yet. 25 Q. Take a chance right now, ma'am. Read the question 18
1 and answer on Page 311. 2 A. Ken tells me every time he gets money. 3 Q. Ma'am, let me focus you specifically on the 4 question and answer, Lines 21 to 25, Page 311. Do you 5 remember being asked that question and giving that answer, 6 ten days ago? 7 A. I remember giving the answer, yes, yes. 8 Q. Okay. Now, was the answer true at the time you 9 gave it? 10 A. Well, I heard it then, but he also tells me every 11 time he gets money. 12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, listen to my question, please. 13 We'll get done a whole lot faster. 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd object. We're 15 approaching the badgering limit here. 16 THE COURT: I don't think so. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this will go a lot faster if you'd 19 try to please listen to my questions. They're very 20 specific. And try to answer what I ask you. 21 Do you remember giving that answer to that 22 question? 23 A. I see that I gave it. I guess I did. 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, was the answer true when you gave 25 it? 19
1 A. I probably thought it was, but I can see that... 2 Q. Ms. Liebreich, is the answer true today? Yes or 3 no, ma'am. 4 A. Well, I heard about it then, but I also heard 5 about it before that, so it's true there the way I read it. 6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, when was the first time you were 7 told that there was a Mr. Minton who had contributed money 8 for the Estate's wrongful death case? When did you first 9 learn of that? 10 A. Back in 1997. I don't remember the date. 11 Q. 1997? 12 A. I believe that's when. 13 Q. And was the source of that information Mr. Dandar, 14 your attorney? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. How did he tell you this? 17 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 18 MR. ROSEN: Excuse me, waived. Counsel 19 put it in a letter. He said, "I consulted my 20 client," in the letter to Mr. Minton, October 21 of '97. 22 "I've consulted my client, and she's 23 agreed to accept your donation." 24 He waived the privilege in the letter. 25 MR. LIROT: The letter speaks for itself. 20
1 Anything beyond that hasn't been waived. 2 THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. 3 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 4 MR. ROSEN: Can I ask you to read that 5 back, please? 6 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "And was 7 the source of that information Mr. Dandar, your 8 attorney?" 9 Answer, "Right." 10 Question, "How did he tell you this?" 11 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me over the 12 phone and he sent me a letter. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Do you have a copy of that letter that he sent 15 you? 16 A. I gave it to Ken. Ken has it. 17 Q. Ken has it. 18 Ma'am, I'm going to try real hard to make my 19 questions real simple. Do you have a copy of the letter 20 that Ken sent you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can I see it? 23 A. Not with me, I don't have. 24 Q. Where is it? 25 A. I don't know if I have it in my purse or not. 21
1 Q. Do you have your purse? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. May I hand you your purse? 4 A. No, thank you. 5 Q. Do you want your attorney to hand you your purse? 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, if Counsel could identify 7 what letter he's referring to, we'll locate it. 8 MR. ROSEN: The witness's letter from her 9 attorney to her advising her of Mr. Minton's 10 gift or donation, whatever you want to call it. 11 MR. LIROT: Is this the letter that was 12 marked as an exhibit and entered into evidence 13 today? 14 MR. ROSEN: I don't know. The witness is 15 testifying to a letter she received from 16 Mr. Dandar, Counsel. How would I know that? 17 How would I know? 18 MR. LIROT: Because you said it was the 19 letter that waived the privilege. 20 MR. ROSEN: No, she said that. 21 THE COURT: No, she said that. And I 22 think the point he's trying to make is he 23 doesn't know if this is a letter that was part 24 of the evidence or not. It may be another 25 letter. 22
1 MR. LIROT: We'll verify that, Judge. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, are you sure that in your 4 testimony that you learned about Mr. Minton and his 5 contribution of money in 1997 rather than 1998; are you 6 sure about that as you sit here today? 7 A. I knew about it before he sent the first check. 8 Q. The first check you know was sent in October of 9 '97. 10 A. Okay. I knew about it before he got the check. 11 Q. So, in other words, Ms. Liebreich, you have a very 12 firm recollection as you're sitting here today that you 13 knew about Mr. Minton making this contribution of money 14 before he made the first -- sent the first check in October 15 of '97. You're confident about that? 16 A. Yes, because Ken called me and he said -- 17 Q. Fine, if the answer is, yes, are you certain about 18 it. Let's turn to Exhibit 17. 19 A. What page? 20 Q. Exhibit 17 is the next folder in front of you, 21 Ms. Liebreich. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. This is portions of the deposition of Dell 24 Liebreich taken May 24th, 1999. I ask you to turn, 25 ma'am -- 23
1 A. To what? 2 Q. -- to Page 164. And I will read to you starting 3 on Line 12. 4 Do you remember -- my question will be if you 5 remember being asked these questions and giving these 6 answers. 7 Question, "How did you first learn that 8 Mr. Minton was going to, I believe your words were, give 9 money or help finance the lawsuit?" 10 Answer, "Ken told me, I believe." 11 Question, "When was that approximately?" 12 Answer, "I can't remember the dates. It was 13 probably -- it was before we went down there in December of 14 '98, but I don't remember. It could have been November or 15 October. I don't remember." 16 Let me stop there. Do you remember being asked 17 those questions and giving those answers? 18 A. Right. I did not -- 19 Q. So at that time, your recollection was it was just 20 before you came to Clearwater in December of '98, either a 21 month before or two months before, October or November, 22 right? 23 A. I was mistaken. 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you got a copy of this transcript 25 after it was prepared? 24
1 A. I'm sure I did. 2 Q. And it is your practice to read your deposition 3 transcripts and to make corrections if you've made 4 mistakes, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You didn't make any corrections to this; did you, 7 ma'am? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Huh? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Your Honor. The 11 transcript speaks for itself. It says, "I 12 don't remember." 13 Rule of completeness. 14 MR. ROSEN: I read the, "I don't 15 remember." 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Did you make any changes? 18 A. I do not remember. 19 Q. Oh, you don't remember if you made any changes. 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this deposition is three years ago. 22 Would you agree with me that your sworn testimony given 23 three years ago, your recollection might perhaps have been 24 better then than it is today? 25 A. It depends on what it was. I don't know. 25
1 Q. Listen to my question, ma'am: Would you agree 2 with me that your recollection of the events when you 3 testified three years ago would be perhaps better than your 4 recollection is today? 5 A. Not necessarily. 6 Q. So your testimony now is that Mr. Dandar told you 7 about this in October of '97 before the first check? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you have been deposed in this case 10 and in the wrongful death case several times, right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Do you agree with me that there is not one single 13 page, not one word of any deposition, in which you have 14 testified that you were told about Mr. Minton and his 15 contribution in October of '97? 16 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. Do you agree with me? 19 A. No. 20 MR. LIROT: Objection, date, time and place of 21 any such deposition. And I would also assert 22 the best evidence rule. I think the 23 correspondence Counsel refers to would be the 24 best evidence of whether any communications 25 took place. 26
1 MR. ROSEN: I didn't ask her about 2 correspondence, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I understand. The objection 4 is overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 6 MR. ROSEN: Could I ask you to read back? 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Do you 8 agree with me that there is not one single 9 page, not one word of any deposition, in which 10 you have testified that you were told about 11 Mr. Minton and his contribution in October of 12 '97?" 13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 14 BY MR. ROSEN: 15 Q. Okay. Let's continue on on Page 164 of your 16 deposition transcript of May of 1999 starting with Line 22. 17 Do you remember being asked these questions and 18 giving these answers: 19 "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton 20 has given to you and your family with regard to financing 21 the lawsuit?" 22 Answer, "I think I saw on the internet a 23 couple -- a couple of hundred thousand or something like 24 that. I'm not sure." 25 Do you remember giving that answer? 27
1 A. I probably did, if it's here. 2 Q. Was it true at the time? 3 A. I didn't remember, probably. 4 Q. Do you think it's true now, Ms. Liebreich, this 5 answer? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It's not? It's a lie? Ma'am? This answer is 8 untrue? 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object. This 10 is calling for the witness to make some kind of 11 a legal conclusion as to the designation of 12 these funds. 13 And I think that Counsel is taking 14 advantage of a layperson's confusion over 15 certain issues about monies to make a big deal 16 out of something that quite candidly, Judge, I 17 don't think there's any semblance of any 18 misrepresentation or anything that's untrue. 19 I think if you look at the deposition, she 20 says, "I can't remember; I'm not sure," and 21 Counsel keeps trying to make her look like 22 she's been untruthful about this testimony, and 23 I think that clearly crosses the line of 24 badgering this witness. 25 THE COURT: I don't think so. Overruled. 28
1 BY MR. ROSEN: 2 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am. 3 A. I'm not sure. 4 Q. Well, I want you to follow this for a moment. If 5 what you're telling us today, that Mr. Dandar told you 6 regularly as he received money from Mr. Minton, why would 7 it be necessary for you to find out about that on the 8 internet? 9 A. It wasn't necessary. I just happened to read it. 10 And he had already told me. I didn't keep up with it. 11 Q. Uh-huh. 12 You didn't say, "Mr. Dandar had told me how 13 much." 14 You said, "I think I saw it on the internet," 15 right? 16 A. He always told me. 17 Q. That's what you said in your deposition, right? 18 A. That's what I said there, yes. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you will notice in the question the 20 question asks, "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton 21 has given to you and your family to finance the lawsuit?" 22 You didn't say, wait a minute, he hasn't given 23 me anything. All he did was loan money to Mr. Dandar as a 24 personal loan. You didn't say that; did you? 25 A. I didn't think it was necessary. 29
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, at the time you gave this answer, 2 did you have in mind and had you been told by your Counsel 3 that the money was a personal loan to him, to Mr. Dandar? 4 A. I'm sure it was, yes. 5 Q. So that the correct answer as of May of '99 when 6 you were deposed would have been Mr. Minton hasn't given, 7 quote, you and your family -- he hasn't given you zero, not 8 one cent, right? 9 A. It was given to Mr. Dandar to use as he saw fit. 10 Q. And Mr. Dandar was present during this deposition 11 defending you, right? 12 A. I'm sure he was. 13 Q. Yeah, okay. Let's go back to one other thing in 14 this deposition and we'll move on. 15 Let's look at -- I will come back to that 16 exhibit. 17 Let's move on to the next one. 18 There's a folder in front of you that says 19 Exhibit 33. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Would you open that one, please? 22 A. It's open. 23 Q. This is an affidavit of yours. Do you recognize 24 this? 25 A. Yes. 30
1 Q. And you signed this affidavit in December of 2000, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I want to direct your attention to Paragraph 2. 5 The first part denies that there was ever any binding 6 agreement. And then it says -- well, I will read the whole 7 thing so I don't take it out of context -- that affiant has 8 never entered into a binding agreement with Robert Minton 9 nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to any 10 disposition of any funds obtained by the Estate of Lisa 11 McPherson in the wrongful death action pending against the 12 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs advanced by 13 Robert Minton to defray costs in litigation. 14 Was that affidavit true at the time you signed 15 it, ma'am? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So what you're saying in that affidavit is that 18 Robert Minton advanced monies for the Estate's expenses in 19 litigation. 20 MR. LIROT: Objection, mischaracterizes the 21 evidence. 22 MR. ROSEN: Isn't that what you were 23 saying? 24 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document 25 speaks for itself. 31
1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Is that what you meant to say? 4 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document speaks for 5 itself. 6 THE COURT: The objection was sustained. 7 BY MR. ROSEN: 8 Q. Okay. In truth, according to your testimony 9 today, Ms. Liebreich, Robert Minton has not advanced one 10 dime to, quote, defray costs in litigation; is that right? 11 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Is that right, ma'am? 15 A. He has not or has? 16 Q. He has not advanced not one dime to, quote, defray 17 the costs of litigation, closed quote. 18 A. Well, he has. 19 Q. He has? Can you show me where he has given you 20 money to defray the costs of litigation? 21 A. It's through Ken. He gave money to Ken. He 22 loaned money to Ken. 23 Q. He gave money to Ken that Ken had no obligation to 24 use to defray the costs of litigation, right? That's your 25 testimony. 32
1 A. I don't understand the law. 2 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit 53, ma'am, that's 3 in front of you? This is a deposition of you taken May 4 24th, 1999. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Turn to Page 209, please, ma'am, starting on Line 7 6. 8 Question, "As to what is left over after 9 Mr. Dandar is paid and the expenses are paid, what have you 10 discussed would represent the bulk of that as going to a 11 cult awareness group, what percentage of what is left 12 over?" 13 Answer, "We didn't set a figure. We have no 14 set percentage or anything. 15 MR. LIROT: Objection, lack of foundation. 16 THE COURT: Lack of foundation? Foundation for 17 what? 18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what they're 19 talking about, expenses are paid, bulk of what, 20 what percent of what is left over. Left over 21 from what? There's been no foundation talking 22 about what global thing we're talking about 23 here and what's left over. 24 MR. ROSEN: I will withdraw the question 25 and come back to it. I will put in a 33
1 foundation so Counsel will be satisfied. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Let's turn to Page 252 for a moment. 4 So here again, Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to ask 5 you whether you remember being asked these questions and 6 giving these answers under oath, Line 14: 7 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is 8 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding 9 the litigation?" 10 Answer, "Right." 11 Did you give that answer in 1999, ma'am? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Was it true at the time? 14 A. Well, that's kind of the understanding, but it's 15 nothing... 16 Q. No. Did you believe that your answer was true at 17 the time that you gave it? 18 A. Unless I changed it, I did. 19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On May 24th, 1999 you believed that that answer 22 was true, right? 23 A. Apparently that's what I thought at the time. 24 Q. And you never signed any errata sheet and you 25 never changed that answer, right? 34
1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. So tell me, Ms. Liebreich, what has happened 3 between May 24th, 1999 and today which has caused you to 4 change your understanding of the money from Mr. Minton? 5 What's happened? 6 A. Well, I have gone back and read some things that I 7 didn't remember. 8 Q. Tell me what you read. 9 A. That letter that Ken sent to me. 10 Q. The one that we have to have produced, yeah. What 11 else have you read that caused you to change your mind? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Huh? 14 A. I do not remember. 15 Q. Well, ma'am, with all due respect, if you read 16 something, you read it in the last ten days, right? 17 A. Not necessarily. 18 Q. Well, when did you read something that made you 19 change your mind, a year ago? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Ma'am, you've spent a good deal of time with your 22 Counsel since this motion was filed to disqualify 23 Mr. Dandar; haven't you? Haven't you? 24 A. Some time, yes. 25 Q. Some time? Spend all day yesterday? 35
1 A. No. 2 Q. Could you help me out and just think for a moment, 3 with the time you spent in connection with the last hearing 4 on April 19th and the time you spent in preparation for 5 this hearing, tell me, just in the last ten, twelve days, 6 what is it that you have seen that has caused you to change 7 your testimony about the Minton money other than this 8 letter which we're waiting for you to produce? Other than 9 that. Anything else? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, calls for privileged 11 communications. 12 THE COURT: Well, to the extent that her 13 answer includes privileged communications, then 14 it would be sustained. 15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Just identify the document. Just tell me it's a 18 letter from so and so to so and so, it's a deposition, it's 19 an affidavit. 20 Tell me what you've seen, ma'am, that's caused 21 you to change your testimony. 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. You don't remember? Okay. Well, maybe you will 24 have a chance to think about it over lunch and then maybe 25 you'll be able to tell us. Let's move on to Exhibit 32. 36
1 Do you have Exhibit 32 in front of you, Ms. Liebreich? 2 A. I'm getting it. 3 Q. Okay. Good. This is another portion of the same 4 deposition of May 24th, 1999 of you, you being represented 5 by Ken Dandar. 6 I want you to turn to Page 173, and I want to 7 direct your attention to the questions and answers starting 8 on Line 10 and going through Line 17. 9 And I will ask you again whether you remember 10 being asked these questions and giving these answers under 11 sworn oath, ma'am. 12 Question, "Well, do you consider the money that 13 Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of the 14 Estate of Lisa McPherson?" 15 Answer, "Yes." 16 Question, "So it is not Mr. Dandar's money to 17 go buy his wife an anniversary gift or himself some 18 personal item; is that correct?" 19 Answer, "Right." 20 Did you give those answers? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you gave them under the same oath that you 23 took before taking the witness stand today, right, in this 24 courtroom? 25 A. Right. 37
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, are those answers true? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Were they true when you gave them on May 24th, 4 1999? 5 A. To my best understanding. 6 Q. And they're true today; aren't they, ma'am? 7 A. Well -- 8 Q. Because if you say they're not, I'm going to ask 9 you what caused you to change your mind, so think about it. 10 Are these answers true today or not? 11 A. The money was a loan to Mr. Dandar. I -- 12 Q. Are these answers true today? Yes or no. 13 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. He's 14 interrupting the witness. 15 THE COURT: The witness was not being 16 responsive. 17 THE WITNESS: It's a loan to him. I feel 18 like he can do what he wants to with it. 19 BY MR. ROSEN: 20 Q. I'm going to ask you one more time, Ms. Liebreich. 21 I just read you questions and answers from Line 10 to Line 22 17. 23 I ask you again. Are those answers that you 24 gave to those two questions, are they true today? Yes or 25 no, ma'am. 38
1 A. Well, I still say it's a loan to him. 2 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, you understand what the oath 3 is that you've taken to swear to tell the truth, right? 4 A. I tell the truth. 5 Q. And you wouldn't commit perjury in this courtroom 6 just because Mr. Dandar asked you to; would you? 7 A. Never. Mr. Dandar would never ask me to commit 8 perjury. 9 Q. So when you testified earlier today at the 10 beginning of this examination that it was your 11 understanding that this was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar 12 from Mr. Minton for Mr. Dandar to use any way he wanted, 13 including buying his wife an anniversary gift, Mr. Dandar 14 didn't tell you to say that; you decided to say that, 15 right? 16 A. I said it. 17 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Page 174 of the same 18 deposition. 19 Line 14, just so we understand that you weren't 20 asked this question once, Ms. Liebreich, you were asked 21 this question many times, Line 14: 22 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is 23 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding 24 the litigation?" 25 Answer, "Right." 39
1 Did you give that answer under oath, ma'am? 2 A. Yes, because that's what he's spending it for. 3 Q. Was it true at the time, ma'am? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it true today? 6 A. That's what he's spending it for. 7 Q. That's what who is spending it for? 8 A. Ken is spending the money for that. 9 Q. For what? 10 A. For the litigation. 11 Q. How do you know that? Have you ever gotten an 12 accounting of what he's spent of the 2 million? Yes or no, 13 ma'am. 14 A. I'll take his word for it. 15 Q. Okay. Well, since you're going to tell me you 16 take his word for it, tell me what he told you on the 17 subject. 18 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. ROSEN: I think, Your Honor, this is 21 calling for it, this privileged -- 22 MR. LIROT: There's no foundation for 23 that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 25 BY MR. ROSEN: 40
1 Q. Was it true on May 24th, 1999 that it was your 2 understanding that Mr. Minton donated the money to the 3 Estate? Yes or no, ma'am. 4 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you ever made a tape recording 8 thanking Mr. Minton for his donations to the Estate? 9 A. The only recording that I recall was -- I believe 10 it was the second anniversary of the trust. And someone -- 11 I believe it was Mark Bunker -- called and said he was 12 making a tape -- it might have been someone else -- and 13 wanted to send Bob a thank-you tape. And I did say to him 14 how much I appreciated what he had done. And I don't 15 remember what I said, but I -- which I did appreciate what 16 he did. 17 Q. Now, on that tape, ma'am, you said that you wanted 18 to thank Mr. Minton for the money he had given to the 19 Estate to fund the wrongful death case, right? 20 A. I don't remember what I said. 21 MR. LIROT: Objection. Your Honor, we need to 22 see the tape. 23 MR. ROSEN: You don't remember? 24 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's 25 an objection, I'd appreciate it if you could 41
1 please just hold off. 2 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I 3 apologize. 4 THE COURT: Your objection is? 5 MR. LIROT: We need to see the tape if 6 he's going to ask her questions about what she 7 knows about this tape. 8 THE COURT: I think he can ask her 9 questions without having the tape here. If it 10 becomes an issue, maybe we'll have to get the 11 tape. If she knows, fine. If she doesn't, 12 fine. Let's find out what her response is. 13 THE WITNESS: I told you what I 14 remembered, thanking him. I don't remember 15 word by word what I said. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Well, let me see if I can help refresh your 18 recollection with your testimony of ten days ago. Can you 19 turn to Exhibit 61, please, ma'am, Page 354. 20 A. 61? 21 Q. Yeah, Exhibit 61. 22 A. Page what? 23 Q. Page 354. See it? 24 And in the first several lines you're referring 25 to this tape on the second anniversary just as you've just 42
1 said, and we come down to the question on Line 12. 2 "You thanked him," him being Mr. Minton, "for 3 the money he had given to the Estate to fund the case." 4 Answer, "Yes, yes." 5 Do you remember giving those answers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were those answers true at the time? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. So at the time that you answered this under 10 oath, you were referring to the statement on the tape in 11 which you thanked Mr. Minton for giving money, a, to the 12 Estate and, b, to fund the wrongful death case, right? 13 A. Mr. Dandar was paying the expenses out of that 14 money. 15 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike it as not 16 responsive, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Dandar tell you who the Swiss 20 bank checks were from? 21 A. He didn't know. 22 Q. Is that what he said to you? 23 A. He told me he didn't know who they were from. 24 Q. When did he tell you that, ma'am? 25 A. Well, the day he received them. 43
1 Q. So, in other words, you have a recollection in 2 March of the year -- excuse me -- in May of the year 2000 3 that Mr. Dandar said I just got this check -- in words or 4 substance -- I just got a Swiss bank check for $500,000 and 5 I don't know whose money it is. Is that what he said to 6 you in words or substance? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection, attorney/client 8 privilege. 9 THE COURT: I think the privilege has been 10 waived. She's already testified to it. 11 Overruled. 12 BY MR. ROSEN: 13 Q. Is that your testimony? 14 A. He called me, yes, and told me, he says, "I don't 15 know who it's from." 16 Q. I want you to think about this conversation. What 17 time of day was this? 18 A. Two years ago? I have no idea. 19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 20 A. I have no earthly idea. 21 Q. What day of the week was it? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. So is it correct that the only thing you remember 24 about this conversation on the telephone is Mr. Dandar 25 calling you and saying, "I just got a check for $500,000 44
1 and I don't know who it's from." 2 Is that it? 3 A. Right, that's right. 4 Q. Do you remember anything else about that 5 conversation? 6 A. I didn't ask him and he didn't tell me that I 7 remember. 8 Q. So he didn't tell you, for example, who handed him 9 the check, huh? 10 A. I didn't ask. 11 Q. And he didn't say? 12 A. I do not remember if he did. 13 Q. And he didn't say anything about some mysterious 14 fat man in Switzerland being the one who donated the money; 15 did he? 16 A. I don't remember. He might have. 17 Q. You don't remember -- as you sit here today, you 18 don't remember any mention of any fat man in this 19 conversation of May of 2000; do you, ma'am? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Okay. But you're sure that he told you about this 22 in March of -- in May of 2000. That, you're certain of, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 61 again. And I 45
1 would like to go through a couple of other portions of your 2 testimony of April 20th. 3 Let's start with Page 400, ma'am. 4 Bottom of 400, top of 401, question, "You heard 5 yesterday the assertions that Mr. Dandar bought some 6 property with some of this money?" 7 Answer, "Yeah, I heard that." 8 Question, "Do you know it's true?" 9 Answer, "I'm sure it is not." 10 Question, "Why?" 11 Answer, "Because he told me it was not true." 12 Did Mr. Dandar tell you it was not true that he 13 used some of the Minton/Swiss money to buy real estate? Is 14 that what you're saying here? 15 A. He didn't tell me that. 16 Q. Did Mr. Dandar tell you it is not true that he 17 used any of Minton's money to buy any real estate? 18 A. He said they're lying or something like that. He 19 didn't do it. 20 Q. Got you. And continuing on to Page 401, after you 21 say it's not true, question, "You wouldn't want him," 22 meaning Mr. Dandar, "to do that; would you?" 23 Answer, "No." 24 Do you see that? 25 A. What line is it? 46
1 Q. Lines 5, 6 and 7 on Page 401. 2 A. I see it. 3 Q. And that was the truth, right? 4 A. Well, he wouldn't do it. 5 Q. And you didn't want him to use any of that money 6 from Mr. Minton to buy real estate or something for 7 himself; is that right? 8 A. If he wanted to, he could. 9 Q. Huh? 10 A. If he wanted to, he could. 11 Q. But you didn't want him to do that, right? 12 A. Well, I didn't want him to, but it would be all 13 right. 14 Q. Let's go to Page 469, bottom of the page, Line 19. 15 This is all your testimony of ten days ago, ma'am. 16 Question, "You became aware of that through a 17 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000 18 in March?" 19 Answer, "Yes." 20 That's March of 2002. You remember that, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he 24 was going to do with that money?" 25 Answer, "Well, I assumed he was going to pay 47
1 bills. He was going to go out --" 2 Excuse me. 3 "I assumed he was going to pay bills." 4 Is that what he told you? 5 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. There's clearly 6 a comma, a the missing page. 7 MR. ROSEN: Counsel is right. I just 8 noticed it. Page 470 is missing. Let me start 9 again at the bottom of 69. 10 BY MR. ROSEN: 11 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he 12 was going to do with that money?" 13 Answer, "Well, I assumed he's going to pay 14 bills, just like he had with the other money." 15 "Pay bills in this case?" Question. 16 Answer, "Right, in the wrongful death case." 17 Did Mr. Dandar tell you he used the money to 18 pay bills in the wrongful death case? 19 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I 21 don't know what you're reading from. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 MR. ROSEN: Huh? 24 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I 25 don't know what you're reading. 48
1 BY MR. ROSEN: 2 Q. I'm reading from your deposition. Do you want me 3 to read it again? 4 A. Can I have a copy of it? 5 Q. Yeah. Here is Page 470. 6 A. Well, 470 is not in here. 7 Q. Here. 8 A. What was your question? 9 MR. ROSEN: Can you read back? 10 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Did Mr. Dandar 11 tell you he used the money to pay bills in the wrongful 12 death case?" 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Is that what he told you? 15 A. I'm sure he did. 16 Q. I will read to you from Line 15 -- starting at 17 Line 15, Page 470. 18 Question, "And it was your understanding he was 19 going to cover expenses in this case with that 20 money -- that money being the $250,000 in March of 21 2002 -- right? 22 Answer, "Right." 23 "And that's all he was going to do with it, 24 right?" 25 Mr. Dandar objects. 49
1 Answer, "As far as I know." 2 Question, "Okay. I mean, you didn't think 3 somebody -- and then to the top of 471 -- was going to go 4 out and buy a warehouse or something with it, did you? 5 Answer, "No." 6 Were those answers true when you gave them ten 7 days ago? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So you expected that Mr. Dandar was going to use 10 all of the $250,000 that he got in March of 2002 to pay 11 bills and for expenses in the wrongful death case; is that 12 right, ma'am? 13 MR. LIROT: Objection. Her assumptions are 14 irrelevant. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Is that right, ma'am? 18 A. That's what I thought, I guess. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen, we're going to 20 have to break. 21 MR. ROSEN: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We're going to take a break for 23 lunch and return at 1:30. 24 (Thereupon, the luncheon recess was held.) 25 THE COURT: Ms. Liebreich, if you will resume. 50
1 You're still under oath, ma'am. 2 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, may I approach? 3 This is substitute Exhibit 61 that has the 4 missing page in it. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you had a chance during the 7 luncheon recess to visit with your purse? 8 A. To visit with whom? 9 Q. Your purse. 10 A. It's not in my purse. 11 Q. What do you think happened to this letter you're 12 telling us about? 13 A. It's at home, I'm sure, in my files. 14 Q. You left it at home in Texas? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When is the last time you saw it, ma'am? 17 A. Probably a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember. 18 Q. You just forgot to bring it with you; did you? 19 A. Apparently. 20 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, before I continue to review 21 with you your prior deposition testimony, I would like to 22 ask you something to make sure you have an understanding of 23 something. 24 You know that in this case before Judge Baird 25 that not only is the Estate a defendant but you are a 51
1 personal defendant? You know that, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You know that the Plaintiff is looking for a 4 judgment against you personally, meaning that you would 5 need to pay that out of your own funds, not any estate 6 funds or anybody else's money. You understand that, right? 7 I'm sorry, ma'am? 8 A. It's against me personally? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you know that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Have you ever had a judgment entered against you 14 personally? 15 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 16 Q. Okay. Well, if somebody ever got a judgment 17 against you, that's something you might remember; isn't it? 18 A. I would think so. 19 Q. Okay. Do you understand that in this case the 20 Plaintiff is asking for a judgment against you personally, 21 meaning that it would seize your bank accounts or whatever 22 assets you have? 23 Do you understand that that's the Plaintiff's 24 request here? 25 A. Well, I hope not. 52
1 Q. You don't know? I mean, that was never explained 2 to you by anyone? 3 MR. LIROT: It's privileged, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. Anyone outside of Counsel. 7 A. No. 8 Q. And if a judgment were entered against you 9 personally, you don't have any expectation anybody else is 10 going to pay it; do you? 11 MR. LIROT: Objection on relevance. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Do you understand, Ms. Liebreich, that if Judge 15 Baird were to find that you have not told the truth, one of 16 the remedies the law gives him is to strike your answer and 17 enter a default in favor of the Plaintiff? 18 MR. LIROT: Objection, speculation. Calls for 19 legal conclusion. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm telling the truth. 22 BY MR. ROSEN: 23 Q. Do you understand what I just said to you? 24 A. I understand what you said. 25 Q. And all of the answers that you gave before the 53
1 luncheon recess, you stand on those, right? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. They're the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 4 the truth, right, Ms. Liebreich? 5 A. To the best of my memory. 6 Q. All right. Let's turn again to Exhibit 61, a 7 transcript of your deposition ten days ago. I will ask you 8 to turn to Page 344. And I will direct your attention to 9 Lines 6 through 12 -- excuse me -- 6 through 9. 10 Were you asked the following questions and did 11 you give the following answers: 12 Question, "All right. How many times did you 13 consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?" 14 Answer, "Anytime he wanted to. I don't know 15 how many times. Anytime he wanted to." 16 Was that answer true at the time that you gave 17 it? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And continuing on Line 10 through 12, you were 20 asked the following question, "But Mr. Dandar called you a 21 number of times and said do you consent to the Estate 22 having this money from Minton?" 23 And your answer, which appears on Page 345, 24 Line 2 is, answer, "Yes." 25 Was that true ten days ago? 54
1 A. Well, I'm sure whatever I said was true to the 2 best of my knowledge. 3 Q. Okay. And continuing on Lines 3 and 4 on Page 4 345, you were then asked the question, "What did you think 5 you were consenting to?" 6 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from 7 Mr. Minton." 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And was that answer true when you gave it ten days 11 ago? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And it's true today, right? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Please turn to Page 347. 16 And I want to direct your attention first to 17 Lines 4 through 16. 18 Again, I will ask you if you were asked these 19 questions and gave these answers. 20 Question, "Now, you heard yesterday about a 21 $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of 2000. Do 22 you remember that?" 23 Answer, "The $500,000, yes." 24 Question, "Yeah. Do you know about that 25 $500,000 --" 55
1 Answer, "Yes." 2 Question, "-- check when it came in?" 3 Answer, "Yes." 4 "How did you know about that?" 5 Answer, "He said he didn't know who it was 6 from." 7 Question, "But that was for the funding of the 8 Estate too, right?" 9 Answer, "Right." 10 Did you give those answers? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And were they true when you gave them ten days 13 ago? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And are they true today? 16 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 17 Q. Okay. Continuing on starting on Line 17. 18 A. I take that back. Let me read that again. 19 Q. Sure. Take your time. 20 A. Well, it was given to Ken for whatever he wanted 21 to spend it for, but they did say funding the Estate. So 22 if he wanted to spend it for that, that's right. 23 Q. Continuing on -- are you done with your answer, 24 ma'am? 25 A. Right. 56
1 Q. Yeah? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The answer that you gave that appears on -- the 4 answers that appear on Lines 4 through 16, are they true 5 today or not? Yes or no would be sufficient. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Good. Okay. Line 17, question, "Do you know 8 about the $250,000 check in March of 2002?" 9 Answer, "I did." 10 Question, "Mr. Dandar told you about it?" 11 Answer, "Yes." 12 Going over to Page 348, Lines 1 through 3, "So 13 you knew that money came in for the litigation of this case 14 and the Estate." 15 Answer, "Right." 16 Were those answers true when you gave them ten 17 days ago, ma'am? 18 A. Well, that's what I said. 19 Q. I know that's what you said. My question is were 20 those answers true under oath? Were they true ten days 21 ago? 22 A. Well, Ken has been spending the money for the 23 Estate. 24 Q. Are they true today, ma'am? 25 A. Yes. 57
1 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Page 439, Line 19. 2 Question, "Okay. It's your testimony that you 3 knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from 4 Mr. Minton." 5 A. What line? What line? 6 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, Line 19 on Page 439. 7 "Okay. It's your testimony that you knew about 8 the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from Mr. Minton in 9 May of 2000, correct?" 10 Answer, "Right, right." 11 So was that answer true? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you knew, then, the check for $500,000 that 14 came to Mr. Dandar in May of 2000, Mr. Dandar had gotten, 15 quote, from Mr. Minton, closed quote. Is that right? 16 A. Well, I think he said Mr. Minton gave it to him, 17 but he didn't know who it came from. I don't remember 18 exactly what it was. 19 Q. You can't remember what he said? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. And then after the examination of you on 22 direct examination was completed, Mr. Dandar, your 23 attorney, then cross-examined you ten days ago, right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. So let's turn to Page 463, starting on Line 3, and 58
1 here's the question -- I'm sorry -- starting on Line 5, 2 actually. Here's the question Mr. Dandar asked you: 3 "Is it your understanding that the money that 4 Robert Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken 5 Dandar, your attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the 6 P.A.?" 7 Answer, "Yes," right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. On cross-examination ten days ago, ma'am, this is 10 the first time you have ever said in any affidavit or 11 deposition that the money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Ken 12 Dandar; isn't that right? 13 A. I don't know whether I've said it before or not. 14 Q. Well, I'm asking you. As you sit here, do you 15 have a recollection of ever saying in a deposition, in an 16 affidavit, in a court hearing, anywhere, anywhere in the 17 five years before April 20th, 2002, did you ever say in 18 words or substance, "Mr. Minton's money was a loan to Ken 19 Dandar"? Yes or no. 20 A. I just answered you. I don't remember. Possibly 21 I have. I don't remember. 22 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar didn't tell you to give that 23 answer that I just read to you; did he? 24 A. No. 25 Q. He didn't tell you to lie; did he? 59
1 A. He's never told me to lie, or anyone else. 2 Q. He didn't tell you to lie in connection with this 3 question, right, and this answer? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So you decided to provide this answer on your own, 6 right? 7 A. I'm sure I did. 8 Q. Okay. You know that one of the other issues in 9 this case is the matter of the agreement made -- alleged 10 agreement made -- between the Estate and Mr. Minton that, 11 in substance, after the costs and expenses are paid, out of 12 any settlement or recovery in the wrongful death case, the, 13 quote, bulk of the recovery would be donated to some 14 anti-cult group? Are you aware that's one of the issues in 15 the case? 16 A. Well, that's what my sisters and brother -- we 17 kind of talked about it. There's no agreement. 18 Q. Did you agree amongst yourselves to that? 19 A. We talked about it. We had nothing in writing. 20 Q. Did you agree or not, ma'am? 21 A. We have nothing in writing. 22 Q. Ma'am, you're not answering my question. I didn't 23 ask you if there was anything in writing. 24 I asked you if you and your sisters and brother 25 agreed that after expenses, the bulk of any recovery in the 60
1 wrongful death case would be contributed to an anti-cult 2 group. Yes or no, ma'am. 3 A. Orally, yes. 4 Q. Okay. And that was communicated to Mr. Minton, 5 right -- 6 A. Possibly. 7 Q. -- by your attorney, Mr. Dandar, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Huh? 10 A. Possibly. 11 Q. In 1997, that was communicated, right? 12 A. I don't remember when it was. 13 Q. Can you tell me when it was that you and your 14 siblings agreed orally that the bulk of any recovery from 15 the wrongful death case would be donated to an anti-cult 16 group? 17 A. I cannot remember. 18 Q. Tell me approximately what year you think it was, 19 ma'am. 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Well, do me a favor. Before you jump to say you 22 don't remember, give it a moment of thought. It's 23 somewhere between 1997 and today. So see if you can help 24 me out. When was it? 25 A. It could have been '97, '98, '99 or 2000 or 2001. 61
1 I don't remember. 2 Q. It could have been any of those years, huh? 3 Okay. Let me see if I can help refresh your 4 recollection, ma'am. Let's turn to Exhibit 53. 5 This is a deposition of yours taken on May 6 24th, 1999. And I will direct your attention to Page 198. 7 A. Which one? 53? 8 Q. 53, ma'am. 9 A. I don't have a 53 that I see. I have 57, 56, 55, 10 54. I have a 33. 11 Q. 53. 12 A. 61, 32. 13 MR. ROSEN: May I approach, Your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 THE WITNESS: Here it is. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Oh, you have it? Good. Exhibit 53 -- Page 198, 18 Ms. Liebreich. 19 Do you have it, ma'am? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. I'm going to direct your attention to a 22 question. Actually, the question begins on Line 19. 23 "Is it an accurate description of your 24 agreement that -- is it correct -- that you on behalf of 25 the Estate of Lisa McPherson have agreed to donate the bulk 62
1 of any money that you get out of this case to a 2 cult-awareness group? Is that accurate? 3 Answer, "Yes." 4 Do you remember being asked that question and 5 giving that answer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. By the way, Ms. Liebreich, if you look at this 8 deposition of May of 1999, does that help in any way to 9 refresh your recollection as to when this agreement was 10 made? 11 A. Maybe it was '99. I don't remember when we talked 12 about it. It probably was '99. 13 Q. Could we agree that it was before May 24th, 1999, 14 ma'am? 15 A. Probably, yes. 16 Q. Probably. Okay. And let's go over to the top of 17 Page 199, then, continuing on, "Has that been discussed 18 with your other siblings?" 19 Answer, "Yes." 20 "And they have agreed to that?" 21 Answer, "Yes." 22 Do you remember being asked those questions and 23 giving those answers? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And were they true at the time? 63
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Let's turn, now, to Exhibit 54, ma'am. And 3 I will direct your attention to Page 25. This is the 4 deposition of your sister, Lee Skelton. 5 A. Page what? 6 Q. 25. This is the deposition of your sister Lee 7 Skelton, right? 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. And Ms. Skeleton is one of the people -- one of 10 the beneficiaries, if you would, who would ultimately share 11 in any recovery in the wrongful death case, right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Okay. You'll notice -- I won't read this to you, 14 but I will ask you to read it to yourself -- the question 15 begins on Line 19 on Page 25, and the answer goes to the 16 top of Line 3 on Page 26. 17 If you will read that to myself, my only 18 question is going to be whether or not you have any 19 disagreement with that statement or whether your sister 20 told the truth. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. She told the truth, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 55, ma'am. This is a 25 deposition of another one of your sisters, Ann Carlson, 64
1 correct? 2 A. It looks that way. 3 Q. Say again? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And Ms. Carlson also would be a beneficiary 6 of any of the recovery in the wrongful death case? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. So let's turn, ma'am, to Page 19, and I will 9 direct your attention to -- and you can read to yourself 10 the question which appears on Line 8 and the answer which 11 goes down to Line 20. 12 Why don't you read that to yourself, and then 13 I'm going to ask you whether or not your sister told the 14 truth, whether that's true to your knowledge. 15 A. As far as I know, it's true. 16 Q. Okay. Good. Now we go to Exhibit 56. Exhibit 56 17 is another deposition of your sister Ann Carlson. This one 18 is July 27, 2000. Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And I will direct your attention, ma'am, to Page 21 225. 22 A. All right. 23 Q. I will ask you to read the questions and answers 24 starting on Line 13 and going down to the bottom of the 25 page on Line 25. Take your time and read it to yourself. 65
1 A. What was the question? 2 Q. Have you finished reading it, ma'am? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, your sister gave 5 truthful testimony there, right? 6 A. To the best of her knowledge, I'm sure she did. 7 Q. Now, Ms. Liebreich, did there come a time in 2000 8 when there was any discussion about not making any more 9 public statements about an agreement to donate the bulk of 10 the proceeds? 11 A. Was there -- 12 Q. I will repeat the question. Did there come a time 13 towards the end of the year 2000 when you had discussions 14 with anyone on the subject of let's not make anymore 15 statements about this agreement to donate the bulk of the 16 proceeds? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No. 19 Okay. So I would assume, then, from what we've 20 just gone over that as far as you're concerned as you sit 21 here today, the intention and understanding of you and your 22 siblings remains to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of 23 any wrongful death recovery to an anti-cult group, right? 24 A. I don't know whether we would or not. I don't 25 know. We have no money... 66
1 Q. Did something happen to make you change your mind? 2 A. Well, that's possible. 3 Q. Well, and so is my becoming 5'10 tomorrow, but not 4 likely. So let me ask you again. 5 Apart from possibility, anything that you can 6 recall happen that made you change your mind? 7 A. I don't know about the rest of my siblings, but 8 I've changed my mind. 9 Q. I'm asking you. You didn't change your mind? 10 A. Well, after the way Mr. Minton testified against 11 Dan -- or Ken -- 12 Q. You've changed your mind? You have changed your 13 mind. 14 A. I feel like I have. 15 Q. Okay. And that was just recently, right? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Let's turn to -- you have a file Exhibit 33 in 18 front of you, ma'am. 19 Do you see that, Ms. Liebreich? 20 A. I haven't found it yet. Here it is. 21 Q. Okay. Exhibit 33 is an affidavit of yours. Is 22 that your signature on the second page? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. And you swore to this affidavit on the 20th of 25 December 2000, correct? 67
1 A. Yes. 2 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered, Judge. 3 MR. ROSEN: Say again? 4 MR. LIROT: The question has been asked 5 and answered. We've already gone through this 6 affidavit. 7 THE WITNESS: You did. You asked that 8 earlier. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 10 THE WITNESS: You asked it earlier. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, let me direct your attention to the 13 first part of Paragraph 2, that, "Affiant has never entered 14 into a binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to the disposition of 16 funds." 17 Let me stop there. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, you did enter into an agreement, but the 20 agreement, you're saying in here -- what you meant to say 21 is that the agreement is just not binding. 22 A. A verbal agreement, nothing in writing. 23 Q. Right. So because the agreement is verbal, 24 nothing in writing, in your mind it's not binding. 25 A. Right. 68
1 Q. Now, I want to be careful about this. If you can 2 answer this question, please, yes or no. 3 Have you received any legal advice on the 4 subject of whether a verbal agreement is binding or 5 non-binding? Just yes or no would be good enough. 6 A. No. 7 Q. So you somehow concluded in your own mind that if 8 the agreement is not in writing, it's not binding; you 9 don't have to honor it, right? Is that right? 10 A. I haven't thought about it. 11 Q. Well, isn't that what you meant when you said it's 12 not binding because it's not in writing? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Okay. Paragraph 3 of the affidavit, you are here 15 testifying that the Lisa McPherson Trust has not advanced 16 any funds to defray costs in the wrongful death case, 17 right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Did you make any inquiry of anyone as to whether 20 that statement was true before you swore to it? 21 A. No, I don't believe I did. 22 Q. No? Who drafted this affidavit? 23 A. It seems like to me the reason it was drawn up was 24 that Scientology kept bugging, bugging about Mr. Minton 25 running the lawsuit and running everything and all of that, 69
1 and I just -- we just decided to do that. 2 Q. Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, but can you tell 3 me who prepared this affidavit? 4 A. Well, Ken's office did. 5 Q. Whose idea was it to file an affidavit saying 6 there's no binding agreement? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 BY MR. ROSEN: 10 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that Mr. Lirot has filed 11 an appearance as additional counsel representing you and 12 the Estate in this case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Lirot, never hired him, 15 right? Is that right? 16 A. Me personally hire him? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Well, you say you personally, ma'am. Do you 20 understand Mr. Lirot is representing you personally in this 21 case before Judge Baird? You understand that, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You never hired him, you never spoke to him about 24 that, right? 25 A. I've talked with him. 70
1 Q. No. You never hired him. You never spoke to him 2 about hiring him, right? 3 A. I talked to Ken about hiring him, yes. 4 Q. Mr. Dandar is the one who hired him, right? 5 A. Well, after our discussions. 6 Q. You never met or heard of Mr. Lirot. Mr. Dandar 7 hired him, right? 8 A. I just answered your question. 9 Q. Who is paying him? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 BY MR. ROSEN: 13 Q. You're aware, as well, that Mr. Lirot has appeared 14 as counsel for the Estate in the wrongful death case? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Dandar made that decision, right? 17 A. We discussed it. 18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, isn't it true that you didn't know 19 anything about Mr. Lirot appearing as counsel for the 20 Estate in the wrongful death case until he already did it 21 and Mr. Dandar told you about it? Isn't that true? 22 A. No, that's not true. 23 Q. And you never signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot 24 to represent you or the Estate in this case, right? 25 A. I have not. 71
1 Q. And you've not signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot 2 to represent the Estate in the wrongful death case, right? 3 A. Not yet. 4 Q. Have you been asked to? I said, have you been 5 asked to? 6 A. Not yet. 7 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing further, Your 8 Honor. 9 I will offer into evidence the exhibits 10 that we've used in the examination of this 11 witness so I don't forget like I did last time. 12 And they are the portion of Exhibit 56, 13 the portion of Exhibit 55, the portion of 14 Exhibit 61 -- all of these are 15 transcripts -- the portion of Exhibit 54, the 16 portion of Exhibit 53, Exhibit 33, the portion 17 of Exhibit 57, Exhibit 17 -- a portion of 18 Exhibit 17; I'm sorry -- the portion of Exhibit 19 32. 20 And that, I believe, is all of them, Your 21 Honor. I would offer them into evidence. 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object to 23 the depositions of anyone other than 24 Ms. Liebreich. We object to Exhibit 55, the 25 excerpts of the deposition from Ann Carlson. 72
1 THE COURT: On what grounds? 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, there has been no 3 authentication here, and I don't think we have 4 the signature page. We would object on the 5 grounds of the rule of completeness. 6 And these witnesses -- these deponents 7 haven't been there to be allowed to have any 8 cross-examination regarding their answers or 9 anything involved in these depositions. 10 MR. ROSEN: I wasn't offering them for the 11 truth, Your Honor. If you recall my questions 12 they were specifically whether this witness, 13 having read those questions and answers, agrees 14 with the statements and agrees that they were 15 true. That's the only reason they're being 16 offered, not for the truth. 17 THE COURT: I think that her responses to 18 the questions were such that the portions of 19 the depositions themselves are not necessary. 20 I will sustain the objection. 21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, my problem is that 22 she didn't read them out loud. If you 23 remember, I had her read them to herself. 24 So without the exhibits going in, the 25 record will not show what it is she's agreeing 73
1 to. 2 And if the only objection is authenticity, 3 do we have to call a court reporter to 4 authenticate that transcript? I will put 5 Mr. Dandar on the stand; he was there. 6 So if Counsel wants to object to 7 authenticity, I can authenticate them three 8 different ways. 9 MR. LIROT: Mr. Dandar wasn't the 10 deponent, Judge. 11 MR. ROSEN: He was present. 12 THE COURT: I know he wasn't a deponent. 13 The question is, do you really have an 14 objection to the authenticity of these 15 depositions? 16 MR. LIROT: I have an objection to not 17 being able to cross-examine the deponents in 18 these depositions to explain their answers. 19 THE COURT: Well, but their answers are 20 really not relevant. What's relevant is this 21 witness's answers, and you have an opportunity 22 to cross-examine her. 23 All right. I will go ahead and admit 24 them. 25 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, Your Honor. 74
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Liebreich. 4 I would like to ask you some questions bearing 5 on some of the questions that Mr. Rosen has asked you, and 6 I will do the best I can to go through these exhibits that 7 you've been handed. 8 And I would like to start off with Exhibit 9 Number 33, the affidavit. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, you testified that you signed this affidavit. 12 And Mr. Rosen asked you about Paragraph 2, that you as the 13 affiant -- and I will quote -- has never entered into a 14 binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson 15 Trust nor anyone else as to any disposition of any funds 16 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the wrongful 17 death action pending against the Church of Scientology in 18 excess of any costs advanced by Robert Minton to defray 19 costs of litigation. 20 You were asked if that was truthful, and I 21 think your testimony was that there was nothing in writing. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Now, have you got any formal legal training? 24 A. No, none at all. 25 Q. All right. So what is it that you understand 75
1 about necessary to reach an agreement with anybody on 2 anything? 3 A. It should be in writing, preferably notarized. 4 Q. Should it include the terms -- 5 A. I would think so. 6 Q. -- that you're going to discuss? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Should those terms be specific? 9 A. I would think so. 10 Q. So an oral agreement to give somebody a bulk of 11 anything, is that specific? 12 A. A bulk of nothing, I guess, no. 13 Q. Was there ever any agreement to give any money to 14 Robert Minton from the Estate or any agreement whatsoever 15 to give money to the Lisa McPherson Trust ever -- 16 A. Never. 17 Q. -- orally or otherwise? 18 A. No, I don't believe so. Not to my knowledge, no, 19 no agreement. 20 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen was concerned about whether or not 21 you knew of the loans made to Mr. Dandar by Mr. Minton. 22 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, if I may ask for a 23 continued allowance to approach the witness. 24 THE COURT: No objection. 25 BY MR. LIROT: 76
1 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter dated October 24th, 2 1997 which appears to bear your signature. Can you tell 3 the Court what that document is. 4 MR. ROSEN: Can I have a copy? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, you can. 6 THE WITNESS: Would you like me to read 7 it? 8 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 9 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I object to this. 10 This was a document that was asked for in 11 discovery repeatedly. It was asked for in a 12 notice to produce in this case. 13 Counsel has kept it in his briefcase and 14 now springs it. 15 We served a notice to produce for copies 16 of all correspondence between Mr. Dandar and 17 this witness. Nothing produced. 18 Not only two years ago, but as the notice 19 to produce for this case. A little bit late 20 for this. 21 MR. LIROT: I just got this document 22 today, Your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Well, I'm not blaming you 24 personally, but, you know, when a notice goes 25 out and evidence is to be produced, then 77
1 there's a reason for that. 2 And obviously there's a reason why there 3 are rules about whether or not you can use it 4 if you choose not to produce it or someone 5 chooses not to produce it. 6 MR. LIROT: I understand that. 7 THE COURT: You know, this isn't a game of 8 surprise here. 9 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the 11 objection unless you can give me a reasonable 12 explanation as to why it wasn't produced at the 13 time it was requested. 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't have any 15 personal explanation because I haven't been 16 involved in this case as long as the request to 17 produce. 18 THE COURT: Then it's presumably 19 inadmissable, then. 20 MR. LIROT: Well, I will ask her questions 21 based on that time, then. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q. Do you remember receiving a letter from Mr. Dandar 24 explaining that a gentleman by the name of Robert Minton 25 wanted to provide funds to him? 78
1 MR. ROSEN: Objection. I asked for the 2 letter. It hasn't been produced. 3 THE COURT: We're just not going to get 4 into this, either directly or indirectly. 5 That's what discovery is all about, 6 Mr. Lirot. And, you know, I'm sorry, but it's 7 just not fair to refuse to produce something in 8 discovery and then use the evidence at trial. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could speak to 10 Mr. Dandar for a second and try to come up with 11 an explanation, if you would grant me that 12 indulgence. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may respond to the 15 Court's concerns, Mr. Dandar handed me a copy 16 of the notice to produce at hearing bearing a 17 service date of April 18th, 2002. 18 And this notice to produce served by 19 Mr. Rosen asks for copies of all transmittal 20 letters from anyone in the firm of Dandar & 21 Dandar to Dell Liebreich. 22 This is a letter from Dell Liebreich to 23 Mr. Dandar, so that would be responsive to this 24 specific request to produce. 25 THE COURT: Let me see it. 79
1 MR. LIROT: If I may, Your Honor. 2 And, again, this is the notice to produce 3 at hearing signed by Mr. Rosen with a service 4 date of April 18th, 2002. Approaching the 5 bench. 6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we asked for these 7 documents in discovery. You may recall that 8 after the January deposition we asked for 9 correspondence back and forth between 10 Mrs. Liebreich -- 11 THE COURT: You better show me the 12 discovery request. 13 MR. ROSEN: That's what we're looking for 14 now. 15 THE COURT: Do you want to take a short 16 break here? 17 MR. LIROT: Certainly. 18 THE COURT: All right. Let's take five 19 minutes. 20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.) 21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we do not have all 22 of our document requests here. 23 What I propose to do is this, with respect 24 to this letter: If Mr. Dandar will stand up 25 and represent to you under oath that no 80
1 document request called for this 2 letter -- which is itself privileged on the 3 face of it -- no document request has ever been 4 served by my client in either this case or the 5 wrongful death case, I will withdraw my 6 objection on that ground pending our searching 7 tonight. 8 But I would like Mr. Dandar's 9 representation under oath that no document 10 request was ever served for this letter of 11 October 24th, 1997 from Ms. Liebreich to 12 Mr. Dandar. 13 The other thing -- and if we find 14 something, I'll let you know tomorrow, but we 15 don't have all of our files here. 16 The other thing is there was no original 17 of this letter, and I do object. This is a 18 letter supposedly sent from this witness to 19 Mr. Dandar. I would like to see the original. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, we have the original, 21 and I will work with Mr. Rosen if he modifies 22 that to the extent that no request for 23 production was made that wasn't responded to 24 with assertion of the attorney/client 25 privilege. 81
1 MR. ROSEN: No. If you asserted the 2 privilege, you can't waive it now. So adverse 3 shield is the rhetoric. 4 THE COURT: You can't object to it on the 5 basis of, you know -- in discovery -- on the 6 basis of privilege and then try to introduce it 7 at trial. 8 MR. LIROT: The only issue now, Judge, 9 is -- it's become an issue as far as 10 notification -- of these checks. 11 And I don't think -- from what I've seen, 12 there hasn't been any request for production of 13 that pending upon what I have seen in my 14 involvement in this case. 15 I'm not trying to mince the rules here. 16 I'm trying to just basically get the 17 information out to rebut or at least have a 18 reasonable cross-examination of Ms. Liebreich. 19 THE COURT: Well, you understand that part 20 of what the Plaintiff is trying to do here is 21 to suggest that Mr. Dandar has not been 22 entirely forthcoming in many aspects of this 23 case, and they're suggesting this is just 24 another example of that. 25 Now, I can go ahead and accept it, but I 82
1 can at the same time, if the request for 2 production is produced, take into consideration 3 of that along with all of the other evidence to 4 determine whether or not Mr. Dandar has been 5 entirely forthcoming about this. 6 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I understand your 7 concern, but basically if there's a privilege 8 that's been asserted, then I'm under an 9 obligation to maintain that privilege and 10 withdraw the letter. 11 THE COURT: Well, what do you want to do? 12 MR. LIROT: I will withdraw the letter. 13 THE COURT: That solves that. Let's move 14 on. 15 MR. LIROT: Very good. Judge, may I 16 approach the witness? 17 THE COURT: Go ahead. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to hand you what's been 20 marked as Exhibit 9 by Mr. Rosen. And this is a letter on 21 the letterhead of Dandar & Dandar dated October 9th, 1997. 22 MR. LIROT: And, Mr. Rosen, this was your 23 Exhibit 9 from the prior hearing. 24 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, sir. 25 BY MR. LIROT: 83
1 Q. I'm going to ask you, that letter is addressed to 2 Mr. Minton. Do you ever recall receiving a copy of that 3 letter? 4 MR. ROSEN: I object, Your Honor. This is 5 covered by the notice to produce. Any 6 correspondence -- 7 THE COURT: This is a piece of 8 correspondence you introduced previously, 9 right? 10 MR. ROSEN: No, no. I introduced it as a 11 letter Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Minton. The 12 notice to produce says produce any letters sent 13 from Mr. Dandar to this witness. 14 If this letter was sent to the witness, it 15 should have been identified because she's not 16 cc'd on the letter. 17 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule that. 18 This is a copy of it. It's already been 19 introduced. Go ahead. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q. Have you seen that letter before, Ms. Liebreich? 22 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember. I might have. I 23 believe I did. I believe I have. 24 Q. Let me ask you this: Around October of 1997, did 25 you become aware that Robert Minton had an interest in 84
1 providing funds in some fashion or another? 2 A. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure I've received this 3 letter. I feel sure I have, yes. 4 THE COURT: You have to speak up, ma'am. I 5 can't hear you. 6 THE WITNESS: I feel sure that I did 7 receive this because Ken and I had discussed 8 it. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q. Did you become aware that the condition upon which 11 any funds under any label that Mr. Minton gave to any party 12 related to this litigation or characterized as a loan was 13 on the condition that he not control the wrongful death 14 case? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And that he would not be privy to any 17 attorney/client or otherwise privileged communications? 18 A. That's true. 19 Q. And did you agree to those conditions? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. To your knowledge, has there ever been any 22 instance where Mr. Minton tried to influence you or control 23 any of the decision-making processes in the wrongful death 24 case? 25 A. He never has, no. 85
1 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken numerous times, 2 and Mr. Rosen provided you with a number of different 3 copies of depositions, I think. 4 If you will kindly draw your attention to 5 Exhibit Number 17, which is a deposition from, I believe, 6 May 24th, 1999. This exhibit are excerpts of that 7 particular deposition. 8 A. 17? 9 Q. 17, yes. 10 A. Okay. Okay. What page did you say? 11 Q. Page 164, please. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. All right. Mr. Rosen asked you to go through 14 Lines 12 through 21, and I believe it states, question, 15 "How did you first learn that Mr. Minton was going to, I 16 believe your words were, give money or help finance the 17 lawsuit?" 18 Your answer was, "Ken told me, I believe." 19 "When was that approximately?" 20 Your answer was, "I can't remember the dates. 21 It was probably -- it was before we went down there in 22 December of '98, but I don't remember. It could have been 23 November/October. I don't remember." 24 Does that transmittal letter to Mr. Minton 25 refresh your memory? 86
1 A. Yes. That was the year before, right. It was 2 '97. 3 Q. So is there anything untruthful in your deposition 4 testimony of May 24th, 1999? 5 A. No. I just didn't remember the dates. 6 Q. Okay. Now, if you would, draw your attention to 7 Exhibit Number 32. And I will give you a second to dig 8 that up. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Mr. Rosen asked you a question on Lines 10 through 11 17, I believe. 12 The question was, "You do consider the money 13 that Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of 14 the Estate of Lisa McPherson." 15 And your answer was yes. 16 Now, have you got any legal training as far as 17 negotiable instruments or loan documents or anything along 18 those lines? 19 A. No, I do not. 20 Q. All right. Did you have full import of these 21 questions when asked about whether or not this was for the 22 benefit of the Estate or whether this was a loan to 23 Mr. Dandar; were any of your answers based on an analysis 24 of the legal implications of those different terms? 25 A. They were not. 87
1 Q. So, basically, was it your understanding that this 2 money was officially a loan to Mr. Dandar and nothing more? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And is it true that you trusted Mr. Dandar to 5 dedicate these funds to use in the wrongful death case? 6 A. That's true. 7 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, ordinarily I would 8 object to Counsel testifying, but I have great 9 faith in the Court's ability to perceive that. 10 THE COURT: Right. Thank you. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q. Is anything that you stated in your deposition on 13 that particular page untruthful? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And the same question goes for Page 252, Lines 14 16 to 17. 17 A. On which exhibit? 18 Q. Page 252 of that same exhibit, Exhibit Number 32. 19 A. Oh, here it is. 20 Q. The question that you were asked, "Is it your 21 understanding that Mr. Minton is donating the money to the 22 Estate for purposes of funding the litigation?" 23 Your answer was, "Right." 24 As you sit here today, did you intend to 25 mislead or have the intent to give any untruthful answer to 88
1 that question? 2 A. No, I did not. 3 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Rosen makes it seem that 4 you're giving two different answers here. Can you explain 5 that? 6 MR. ROSEN: Argumentative. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 THE WITNESS: It's the same to me, 9 everything that I've said, that the money was 10 given by Mr. Minton to Ken Dandar as a loan to 11 do with as he saw fit. And that's the way I 12 feel about it. But I might not have stated it 13 that way every time. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q. Well, was that because you believed that to be 16 different or is that the basis of some confusion you may 17 have had? 18 A. Well, he keeps turning things around, but, I mean, 19 it's all the same. I haven't changed my thoughts. 20 Q. Has your understanding of the money from 21 Mr. Minton never actually changed from what you assumed to 22 be the loan to Mr. Dandar? Has that ever changed 23 throughout this litigation? 24 A. No, it hasn't. 25 Q. And if you gave an answer that would appear to be 89
1 contrary to that, how do you explain that? 2 A. I don't think I have given one contrary to it. I 3 didn't mean to. 4 Q. So, basically, you felt that your answers were 5 truthful? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And you had no intent to mislead anybody or hide 8 any facts from the Court or from any other person asking 9 any questions of you? 10 A. Never, no. 11 Q. Based on that, is there anything in Exhibit Number 12 32 that you don't believe to be a truthful response to the 13 questions that were posed to you that day, May 24, 1999? 14 A. That's true. 15 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken recently on 16 April 20th of 2002; is that correct? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And Mr. Rosen focused on Exhibit 61 as it relates 19 to that date. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Mr. Rosen first drew your attention, I believe, or 22 at some point during his questioning asked you to look at 23 Page 311 about asking for an accounting. And I believe 24 it's on Line 7. 25 And the question is, "When did you last receive 90
1 an accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of 2 the Estate?" 3 Now, my prior question to you is, did you 4 intend to give an answer that was anything less than 5 truthful about the designation of the particular funds that 6 were given to Mr. Dandar -- 7 A. I did not. 8 Q. -- by Mr. Minton? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Or any other party? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting? 13 A. No, I have not. 14 Q. Have you ever felt the need to ask Mr. Dandar for 15 an accounting? 16 A. No, I haven't. 17 Q. Has he ever done anything to give you any reason 18 to believe that he's been less than honest and honorable in 19 the way that he's used whatever monies were given to him 20 from any source related to the wrongful death litigation? 21 A. Never. 22 Q. I draw your attention to the question and answer 23 on Page 344 that Mr. Rosen focused on. And same question 24 is, "All right. How many times did you consent to 25 Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?" 91
1 A. I'm sorry. What page? 2 Q. Page 344. 3 A. Oh, okay. 4 Q. On Line 6 it says, "All right. How many times did 5 you consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?" 6 And your answer was, "Anytime he wanted to. I 7 don't know how many times. Anytime he wanted to." 8 A. That's true. 9 Q. Was there anything that was intended to mislead 10 anybody asking that question about whether this money was 11 anything other than a loan from Mr. Dandar? 12 A. No. 13 Q. All right. On Page 345, the next page, Mr. Rosen 14 drew your attention to Line 3 where the question was, "What 15 did you think you were consenting to?" 16 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from 17 Mr. Minton." 18 Was there anything in that answer that was 19 inconsistent with your belief that these monies were loans 20 to Mr. Dandar for his use? 21 A. No, not at all. 22 Q. And you trusted him to use these in the wrongful 23 death case. 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. On Page 347, Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line 92
1 4. And I believe the question is, "Now you heard yesterday 2 about a $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of 3 2000. Do you remember that?" 4 Your answer was, "The $500,000, yes." 5 Question, "Yeah. Did you know about the 6 $500,000 --" 7 Your answer was, "Yes." 8 "-- check when it came in?" 9 Answer, "Yes." 10 Question, "How did you know about that?" 11 "He said he didn't know who it was from." 12 Question, "But that was for the funding of the 13 Estate too, right?" 14 Your answer was right. 15 Again, is there anything in your response to 16 that answer that in any way deviates from your assumption 17 that the monies coming from Mr. Minton or any source were 18 loans to Mr. Dandar for his use in the wrongful death case? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. Now, this check for $500,000 -- 21 MR. LIROT: Again, I believe, Judge, we've 22 gotten into this. I don't want to have this construed as 23 any waiver of privilege other than for this limited 24 situation here. 25 BY MR. LIROT: 93
1 Q. Did you become aware that Mr. Dandar had received 2 a check for $500,000 in, I believe it was, May of 2000? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And was any information given to you that that 5 check came from Robert Minton out of any of his funds? 6 A. I believe Ken said he didn't know who it came 7 from; Mr. Minton gave it to him, but he didn't know who it 8 came from, if I'm not mistaken. 9 Q. Okay. In your experience with the wrongful death 10 case, have there been other instances where monies were 11 donated by anonymous sources? Are you aware of any of 12 those instances? 13 A. To the Estate? 14 Q. To either the Estate or Mr. Dandar or anybody. 15 Are you aware of any anonymous funds coming in 16 for use in the wrongful death case? 17 A. Not really. I read on the internet where there 18 was some $600,000 that went to the Trust that was 19 anonymous, but I don't know anything about it. 20 Q. So besides this $500,000 check, it's not uncommon 21 for there to have been anonymous funds in some way involved 22 in these actions? 23 MR. ROSEN: Objection, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: 94
1 Q. On Page 348 Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line 2 1. Again, the question was, "So you knew that money came 3 in for the litigation of this case and the Estate?" 4 The answer was right. 5 As we sit here today, is there anything that 6 you meant to be untruthful or not respond to what you 7 understood and assumed to be loans to Mr. Dandar in 8 response to that question? 9 A. Not at all, no. 10 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen also focused on Page 354 where he 11 asked you about a videotape apparently thanking Mr. Minton. 12 Do you recall ever thanking Mr. Minton for monies donated 13 to the Estate? 14 A. I have thanked him many times, every time I would 15 see him or have any contact with him for giving money, but 16 I don't remember how I stated it, whether it was the Estate 17 or Ken or to us or whatever. I cannot remember. 18 Q. Would any gratitude that you showed Mr. Minton 19 either on tape or off tape either change your belief that 20 the monies coming from Mr. Minton were donations or loans 21 to Mr. Dandar for use in this case? 22 A. Any different? No, the same. 23 Q. Now, on Page 439 of this deposition excerpt in 24 Exhibit 61, I believe you've explained this, but I want to 25 expand on Line 19, there's a question, "Okay. It's your 95
1 testimony that you knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar 2 had gotten from Mr. Minton in May of 2000, correct?" 3 And your answer was right. 4 Did that answer mean to indicate that you knew 5 that the money came from Mr. Minton or that Mr. Minton had 6 delivered the check to Mr. Dandar? 7 A. That Mr. Minton had delivered the check to him. 8 Q. Is there anything in this answer that deviates 9 from your understanding that that $500,000 came from a 10 source other than Mr. Minton? 11 A. Not in this statement it isn't, no. 12 Q. Do you believe anything, in this deposition or any 13 time, that that $500,000 had come from Mr. Minton, from one 14 of his personal accounts? 15 A. Well, it didn't come from a personal account. It 16 came from another different from what he had been giving. 17 Q. On Page 463, Mr. Rosen asked you and on Line 5 it 18 says, "It is your understanding the money that Robert 19 Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken Dandar, your 20 attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the P.A." 21 And your answer was yes. 22 And the question was, "Did he give any money 23 over to the Estate?" 24 I'm sorry. I misspoke. 25 "Did he give any money ever to the Estate?" 96
1 And your answer was no. 2 Is that your actual understanding of all of 3 these questions, basically, that have asked you about these 4 monies? 5 A. That's what I've said. That's the way I felt, 6 that it was all given to Ken all along. 7 Q. Now on Page 469 you were asked a question on Line 8 19, and the question was, "You became aware, through a 9 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000 10 in March of 2002?" 11 Is that correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And your answer was yes. 14 Now, in March of 2002, was it your 15 understanding that Mr. Minton had indicated prior to that 16 time that he was no longer going to provide any funds 17 whatsoever to Mr. Dandar or anybody else for use in 18 connection with the wrongful death case? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And you're aware of that? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. So do you have any reason to believe that this 23 money came from Mr. Minton? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Is there anything in what we've gone over from 97
1 your deposition -- I know you haven't had a chance to read 2 it -- but in Exhibit 61, is there anything in here that was 3 an intentional attempt on your part to be anything less 4 than truthful and honest in the questions posed to you? 5 A. No, but I have not gone over all of it. 6 Q. Now, at some point you signed a retainer agreement 7 with Mr. Dandar's office. Is that correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. I believe Mr. Rosen at the last hearing -- 10 MR. LIROT: May I approach, Judge? 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to show you what's been 14 marked as Exhibit 52. This is the retainer agreement that 15 Mr. Rosen had talked to Mr. Dandar about. 16 I'm going to ask you if you recognize that 17 particular document. 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And what do you understand that document to be, in 20 simple terms? 21 A. Well, it's a -- it's a retainer agreement, but 22 it's just a formal opinion... 23 Q. Do you recall at your deposition questions being 24 posed to you about who is responsible for the costs in the 25 wrongful death suit? 98
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you recall that that document makes it 3 appear that you're responsible for those costs? 4 A. That's what it says here, but I'm not. 5 Q. Did you subsequently come to another agreement 6 with Mr. Dandar relative to the costs in the wrongful death 7 suit? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. And what do you understand that agreement to be? 10 MR. ROSEN: Objection, no foundation, best 11 evidence. We're now going to orally undermine 12 or contradict the terms of a written retainer 13 agreement. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can approach the 16 witness. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter on Dandar & Dandar 19 letterhead dated February 10th, 1997 and ask you if you 20 recognize that letter. 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. Does that letter basically shift the 23 responsibility for costs on the wrongful death case to 24 Mr. Dandar? 25 MR. ROSEN: Objection. 99
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does. 2 THE COURT: I cautioned Mr. Rosen about 3 that; I'm going to caution you about that. 4 When you hear an objection, just shut up, okay? 5 What is it, Mr. Rosen? 6 MR. ROSEN: This document was not produced 7 in discovery. It was covered in the notice to 8 produce, copies of all transmittal letters, 9 copies of correspondence, number one. 10 Number two, if Counsel is asking this 11 witness to give a legal opinion as to whether 12 this letter somehow supersedes or replaces the 13 -written retainer agreement, that's an improper 14 question. That is a pure issue of law. 15 And if Counsel will refrain from asking 16 that question, I don't have any objection to 17 this letter going in, despite that it was not 18 given to us in discovery or notice to produce. 19 Can we have it marked as a defendant's 20 exhibit? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 MR. LIROT: I believe that would be number 23 2, Your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Have you got a copy or 25 do you have the original or what do you want to 100
1 do? 2 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, Judge. I 3 have a copy of the February 10th, 1997 letter 4 from Dandar & Dandar to Ann Carlson and Dell 5 Liebreich. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, has Mr. Dandar ever asked you or 8 instructed you to lie at any deposition or any court 9 proceeding or in any way told you to say anything that 10 wasn't true, ever? 11 A. Never, ever. 12 Q. Have you ever intentionally lied or said anything 13 at any deposition or any court proceeding that you didn't 14 feel was the absolute truth? 15 A. That is true. I have not. 16 Q. Have you ever had any indication from any source 17 that Mr. Dandar in any way was being less than honorable in 18 his use of funds that he obtained from Mr. Minton or any 19 other source in dispatching his responsibilities in the 20 wrongful death case? 21 A. No. 22 MR. LIROT: I have no further questions. 23 MR. ROSEN: Just a couple, Your Honor. 24 BY MR. ROSEN: 25 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I've put in front of you what's 101
1 been marked as Exhibit 33A. 2 This is a deposition of yours -- another 3 portion of your deposition of ten days ago. 4 And I direct your attention to Page 378. 5 At that point you were being questioned about 6 Exhibit 33, the very affidavit we went over a few moments 7 ago. 8 And you were asked, "Who wrote this affidavit?" 9 Answer, "I asked Ken to write it, I'm sure." 10 Do you see that? 11 A. We discussed it, yes. 12 Q. Okay. Now, open Exhibit 33. I just want to make 13 sure you have your affidavit in mind. This is the one that 14 says there's no binding agreement. 15 Why did you ask Ken to write it? For what 16 purpose? 17 A. Well, if I remember correctly, we had discussed 18 that Scientology was badgering everybody about this, and so 19 he says, well, I'm going to write a letter, and I said 20 that's great. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object. This is all 22 privileged. 23 THE COURT: I think she waived the 24 privilege when she testified about it in this 25 deposition. 102
1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can look at the 2 deposition, I think Judge Beach might have 3 imposed some limitation on her response. 4 MR. ROSEN: Do you have a copy of it, 5 Counsel? I'm sorry. Do you not have a copy, 6 Counsel? I will get you a copy, Exhibit 33A. 7 MR. LIROT: 33A? I don't have a 33A. 8 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry. I will get you a 9 copy. You can have my copy. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would renew my 11 objection based on the language. I think the 12 question as posed -- and I hate to make a 13 speaking objection, but I can't do it any other 14 way than this: 15 Question, "So you say in this affidavit 16 you didn't enter into a binding agreement with 17 Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor 18 anyone else as to any disposition of any funds 19 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the 20 wrongful death action pending against the 21 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs 22 advanced by Mr. Minton to defray costs in the 23 litigation, right?" 24 Answer, "Right." 25 That's the extent. All she's doing is 103
1 testifying as to what the affidavit says. 2 THE COURT: That's all well and good, but 3 the question before that is who wrote this 4 affidavit, and the answer was, "I asked Ken to 5 write it, I'm sure." 6 So in terms of that particular event, it 7 seems to me she's waived any privilege 8 BY MR. ROSEN: 9 Q. Back to my question. 10 A. What was your question? 11 Q. Okay. I will repeat it. Why did you ask Ken to 12 write that affidavit, Exhibit 33? 13 A. We discussed that they were being harassed so 14 much, Bob and everybody, about them having -- running the 15 lawsuit and everything, so that was the reason. 16 Q. And so when you discussed it, the conclusion that 17 you reached was if we file an affidavit in court that says 18 there's, quote, no binding agreement, then that would stop 19 discovery? 20 MR. LIROT: Objection. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're 22 talking about. 23 MR. LIROT: Calls for a legal conclusion. 24 And that is privileged. 25 BY MR. ROSEN: 104
1 Q. Did you understand that this affidavit was to be 2 filed in court in support of a motion to stop discovery 3 into this agreement between you and Minton? Do you 4 understand that was the purpose of this? 5 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. ROSEN: 8 Q. When you discussed this with Mr. Dandar, is he the 9 one who drafted the language of this affidavit or did you? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. You don't know? Okay. 12 Now, when we go to Exhibit 33, the affidavit, 13 that's the one where you say there's no binding agreement. 14 And you've explained to us that what you meant was the 15 agreement was verbal; it wasn't in writing. Do you recall 16 that testimony about 15 minutes ago? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Okay. Let me read to you from Page 461 of your 19 deposition of ten days ago. 20 Question -- 21 A. What exhibit is that? 22 Q. It's not an exhibit, ma'am. It's going to be. 23 I'm reading from Page 461 of your deposition of 24 ten days ago, April 20th, 2002, taken before Judge Beach 25 starting at Line 6. 105
1 Question, "Did you ever have any oral or 2 written agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any 3 money from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him 4 or his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?" 5 Answer, "No way." 6 Was that answer true? 7 A. We've never had any agreement, other than orally. 8 Q. Ma'am, try it one more time. 9 Did you ever have any oral or written 10 agreement? Do you understand the word oral is a synonym 11 for verbal? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Is it true that you never had any oral agreement 14 with Mr. Minton about the disposition of the proceeds? Is 15 that right? 16 A. Not an agreement. We've never had an agreement. 17 We just discussed what we might like to do. We never 18 really had any agreement. 19 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, the transcript -- the 20 excerpts of the transcript of the deposition of August 21 20th, 2002 are already before you as Exhibit 61. I would 22 ask that Page 461 of that, which I will hand up, be made 23 part of Exhibit 61. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't have a 461. 106
1 BY MR. ROSEN: 2 Q. Okay. Let's turn to your statement in response to 3 your Counsel's question -- your counsel asked you, Have you 4 ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting? 5 And you said no. Do you remember that? 6 A. I don't have to. 7 Q. Okay. So let me try another question. Do you 8 remember saying in response to your Counsel's question that 9 you've never asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting? Yes or 10 no? 11 A. Do I remember that? Yes. 12 Q. Now, ma'am, we have -- I don't think it's in 13 dispute that a total of $2,050,000 has passed to 14 Mr. Dandar. 15 Do you have any idea if -- have you ever asked 16 your Counsel or has he said anything on the subject of how 17 much of that money has been spent for expenses in the 18 wrongful death case? 19 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 MR. LIROT: I think it's also privileged, 22 Judge. 23 MR. ROSEN: Not anymore. 24 MR. LIROT: This deals with the Second 25 District Court of Appeals orders well. 107
1 THE COURT: Explain that to me. 2 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, this is talking 3 about the amount of monies spent on certain 4 issues involved in this case, and I think that 5 the total sum is still at issue, so I don't 6 think that they should be able to delve into 7 this area. 8 Clearly, the Second District Court of 9 Appeals ruling, as I understand it, the motion 10 for rehearing on rehearing was denied just the 11 other day for the two orders that we referred 12 to at the last hearing. 13 MR. ROSEN: We went over this last time. 14 The orders denied the discovery on the grounds 15 that the information was not relevant in the 16 wrongful death case. There is no privilege, 17 number one. 18 And number two, Counsel just opened the 19 door by asking -- if I didn't have grounds 20 before, I had it when Counsel asked the witness 21 if she ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting. 22 THE COURT: Yeah. I will overrule the 23 objection. 24 MR. ROSEN: Can you answer my question? 25 THE WITNESS: What's the question again? 108
1 MR. ROSEN: May I ask the court reporter 2 to read back? 3 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Now, 4 ma'am, I don't think it's in dispute that a 5 total of $2,050,000 has passed to Mr. Dandar. 6 "Do you have any idea, have you ever asked 7 your Counsel or has he said anything on the 8 subject of how much of that money has been 9 spent for expenses in the wrongful death case?" 10 THE WITNESS: Have I ever asked him? No. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. Did he ever say anything to indicate how much? 13 A. He tells me when he's running low. 14 Q. I can't hear you. 15 A. Yes, we have discussed it. 16 Q. He's told you the amounts that have been spent? 17 A. Not the exact amounts, I'm sure. 18 Q. Approximate amounts. Approximate amounts. 19 A. If I ask him, yes. 20 Q. And have you asked him? 21 A. I have, at different times. 22 Q. In fact, he told you at one point in September 23 of -- around September of 2001 that he was running out of 24 money; didn't he? 25 A. He probably did. 109
1 MR. LIROT: That's a privilege, objection. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 MR. ROSEN: I'll withdraw the question 4 anyways. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. Exhibit 58. 7 A. You want me to look at Exhibit 58? 8 Q. Could you, please? It's before you in the folder. 9 A. That's not it. That's 61. I don't see a 58. I 10 have 57. 11 Q. Okay. I will give you my copy. 12 Okay. That's a posting you made to the 13 internet, right? 14 A. Yes, that's true. 15 Q. What's the date of it? 16 A. It looks like September 6, 2001. 17 Q. And it's a request for money; isn't it? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And the reason that you were requesting money 20 donations at that time to the Estate was because Mr. Dandar 21 had told you he was running out of money. 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Now, after Mr. Dandar, as you say, told you a few 24 months later in March of 2002 that he had received 25 $250,000, you say he told you that, did he ever post 110
1 anything saying, oops, we don't need contributions; we just 2 got 250 grand, or words to that effect? 3 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 4 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry? 5 THE COURT: There's a privileged 6 objection. 7 MR. ROSEN: Privilege as to what she 8 posted on the internet? 9 MR. LIROT: It was my understanding about 10 Mr. Dandar's communications to her subsequent 11 to something that happened. 12 MR. ROSEN: She already answered that. I 13 believe my pending question is did she ever 14 post anything further to the internet saying we 15 got $250,000 -- 16 THE COURT: If that was your question, 17 that's not privileged. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Answer my question, please. 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. Let's turn, finally, to Defendant's Exhibit 22 2, the February 10th, 1997 letter from Mr. -- 23 A. What number? 24 THE COURT: 2. 25 MR. ROSEN: Defendant's Exhibit 2. 111
1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember seeing a 2. 2 MR. ROSEN: All right. Here's another 3 copy. 4 BY MR. ROSEN: 5 Q. This is a February 10th, 1997 letter from 6 Mr. Dandar to you and your sister, right? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And this letter answers some questions you had 9 about the retainer agreement, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. It doesn't change your retainer agreement, does 12 it? It doesn't say the retainer agreement is cancelled; 13 does it? 14 A. I would say it speaks for itself. 15 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus you in on one part of 16 this, Paragraph 1. Mr. Dandar is explaining how proceeds 17 are divided. The attorney's fee is paid out of the gross 18 amount recovered -- it says from the Estate, but I assume 19 that means for the Estate. 20 So follow me, now, Ms. Liebreich. 21 If the recovery in the wrongful death case is, 22 let's say, 5 million. Then the 40 percent attorney's fees 23 comes off the top. That's what that says, right? You 24 understood it that way, right? 25 A. Yes. 112
1 Q. So we have a 5-million-dollar recovery. 2 Mr. Dandar gets 40 percent at 2 million dollars off the 3 top, right? Correct? 4 A. Whatever Mr. Dandar says. 5 Q. And continuing on, of the remaining 3 million, 6 then, the Estate pays the costs of the case. The Estate 7 pays the costs out of its 3 million dollars in my 8 hypothetical, right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. So let's see if I get this right, now. Mr. Dandar 11 gets his personal loan for 2 million dollars from 12 Mr. Minton, spends some money on expenses for the Estate, 13 buys himself a million-dollar house. He doesn't pay 14 Mr. Minton back a nickel. Every cent that he borrowed, you 15 pay back, the Estate, right? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You pay the costs. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Any further letters, while we're on the 20 subject since this was just produced to us today -- are 21 there any other letters, Ms. Liebreich, after February 22 10th, 1997 which change the retainer agreement that you 23 signed, explain it, amend it, anything like that? Or is 24 this a -- 25 A. Mr. Dandar pays his bills. 113
1 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am. Are there any 2 other letters after February 10th, 1997, any other letters, 3 any other writings, which either explain the retainer 4 agreement or change it or supercede it or amend it? 5 Anything like that? 6 A. I don't remember any. 7 Q. Okay. So this is the last statement of Mr. Dandar 8 to you explaining his retainer agreement, right? 9 A. If there was anything, I don't remember seeing it. 10 If you will show me something, I will -- 11 Q. No, no. I don't have it, ma'am. I'm not trying 12 to fool you. This is the last statement Mr. Dandar ever 13 made to you explaining the retainer agreement and how it 14 works, right? Yes or no. 15 A. Mr. Dandar pays the costs -- 16 Q. Ma'am, can you listen to my question? Is this the 17 last communication -- this letter -- is it the last 18 communication from Mr. Dandar to you explaining how the 19 retainer agreement works? Yes or no. 20 A. I said I may have another letter. I don't 21 remember. 22 Q. Let me see if I can take a wild guess. If you 23 have that other letter, is it in your purse or is it in 24 Texas? Where is it, ma'am? 25 A. I don't know where it is. 114
1 Q. You're sure it's not in your purse? 2 A. I'm positive it's not in my purse. 3 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing else. 4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q. Briefly cross, Judge. 7 Mr. Rosen showed you the statements he made in 8 your deposition of April 20th, 2002 and drew your attention 9 to Line 6 and said, "Did you ever have any oral or written 10 agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any money 11 from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him or 12 his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?" 13 And your answer was, "No way." 14 Was there ever any agreement to pay Mr. Minton 15 anything? 16 A. Not to my knowledge. 17 Q. Was the best that you came up with some general 18 agreement that it would be nice to give the bulk of some 19 money, if it was ever realized, to an anti-cult 20 organization? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. Was that ever decided to be Mr. Minton or anything 23 to do with Mr. Minton? 24 A. No. 25 Q. All right. Now, this last letter that Mr. Rosen 115
1 looked at, does this letter allow Mr. Dandar to hire any 2 attorneys he thinks are appropriate to assist him on this 3 case? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Liebreich. 6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I move for the 7 introduction of Exhibit 58 and Defendant's 8 Exhibit 2 and the additional page of Exhibit 61 9 that I handed up. 10 THE COURT: All right. They'll be 11 received. Anything else to inquire of this 12 witness? 13 MR. ROSEN: No. 14 MR. LIROT: Not from us, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take five 16 minutes. 17 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held and 18 this transcript continues to Volume II.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 116
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 ) 6 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 7 I, Susan M. Valsecchi, Registered Professional 8 Reporter, in and for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of 9 Florida: 10 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was authorized to and 11 did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and 12 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my 13 stenographic notes. 14 DATED this day of , 2002, at 15 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida. 16 17 18 19 Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR 20 Registered Professional Reporter 117 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC., Plaintiff vs. CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20 DELL LIEBREICH, individually and as Personal Representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON TRUST, Defendants. / BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird Circuit Judge PLACE: 315 Court Street Clearwater, Florida DATE: April 30, 2002 TIME: 11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m. REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR Registered Professional Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit ----------------------------------------- HEARING (VOLUME II OF APRIL 30, 2002 HEARING) ----------------------------------------- Pages 117 - 211 (Excluding Index.) ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES (727) 443-0992 118
1 APPEARANCES 2 3 4 5 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE 6 SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE 7 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS 8 Post Office Box 1368 9 Clearwater, Florida 33757 10 (727) 461-1818 11 12 Attorneys for Plaintiff 13 14 15 16 LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE 17 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A. 18 112 East Street, Suite B 19 Tampa, Florida 33602 20 21 Attorney for the Defendants 22 23 24 25 119
1 (Thereupon, this hearing continues directly 2 from Volume I.) 3 4 THE COURT: Call your next witness, 5 please. 6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, pursuant to the 7 bench conference earlier, we call Mr. Dandar. 8 THE BAILIFF: Face the Judge, raise your 9 right hand, be sworn in. 10 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to 11 the witness.) 12 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, in a word of 13 explanation, some of these you already have, 14 just for ease during the examination. 15 THEREUPON, 16 KENNAN DANDAR, called as a witness, having been 17 duly sworn, testified as follows: 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. ROSEN: 20 Q. Okay. Mr. Dandar -- wait a second -- okay. Let's 21 start with Exhibit 5 and 6. You will recall these 22 were -- you were examined on these the last time. These 23 are the two checks from the Swiss bank? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at Exhibit 58 and 59. 120
1 We've now obtained the backs of the checks, Mr. Dandar. 2 Are those your signatures on those two checks? 3 A. Mr. Rosen, how did you do that without a 4 deposition, Mr. Rosen? 5 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can this witness be 6 instructed that he's a witness and not Counsel? 7 THE COURT: You're a witness here, Mr. Dandar. 8 You need to answer the questions. 9 BY MR. ROSEN: 10 Q. Okay. Look at Exhibit 58A. Into what account was 11 this deposited? 12 A. A personal account. 13 Q. Where? 14 A. It's none of your business. I object. I assert a 15 privilege. 16 Q. Say again? 17 A. I'm asserting a privilege. 18 Q. What privilege? 19 A. My personal privacy privilege in the Second 20 District Court's two opinions. 21 MR. LIROT: That's probably my job to make that 22 objection, Judge. I will concur with what 23 Mr. Dandar said. 24 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, that's 25 unacceptable in a disqualification motion. The 121
1 witness has no privilege. There is a serious 2 charge here of, a, commingling of funds and, b, 3 of misappropriation. 4 If the witness chooses to assert a 5 privilege, I suggest this hearing is over. 6 This Court doesn't have any choice but to 7 disqualify him. 8 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection. 9 BY MR. ROSEN: 10 Q. Where was 58A deposited, Mr. Dandar? 11 A. I assert my privilege. They're personal accounts. 12 Q. You refuse to answer the question? 13 THE WITNESS: Judge, I need some guidance here. 14 I have a stay order in this case by the Second District. I 15 have two opinions by the Second District in the wrongful 16 death case. They are flagrantly violating both of those 17 orders and the stay order by these false charges, and I 18 request the right to appeal this. 19 THE COURT: Right to appeal what? 20 THE WITNESS: If you're making me answer 21 these questions, I respectfully request you 22 give me the right to file a petition of cert 23 with the Second DCA to bring this matter before 24 them, because I believe this is highly 25 invasive. This has nothing to do with this 122
1 case. 2 This has only to do with, all of these 3 questions so far, the wrongful death case. 4 This is my personal privacy, and they're 5 violating that. 6 I have neither violated an order of this 7 Court, nor have I a conflict of interest with 8 my client, which are the two grounds for 9 disqualification. And all this is is invasive 10 of these opinions. 11 THE COURT: There are other grounds for 12 disqualification besides just a conflict of 13 interest or the violation of court orders. 14 THE WITNESS: That's why I'm asking for 15 guidance from the Court. If you're making me 16 answer these questions, I respectfully request 17 you give me the permission to appeal to the 18 Second District Court of Appeals. 19 Before, Judge, you previously ruled and 20 sustained objections on this type of 21 questioning by Mr. Rosen the last time we were 22 here. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, what do you contend 24 the relevance of this information is for the 25 record? 123
1 MR. ROSEN: One of the specific charges 2 involving the money is, a, commingling of 3 personal and client funds and, b, 4 misappropriation. 5 If you accept the evidence that has been 6 presented to you that the Minton money was 7 provided to Mr. Dandar, not as a personal loan 8 to Mr. Dandar but was provided for the use and 9 benefit of the Estate to defer the expenses in 10 the wrongful death case, the allegation is that 11 Mr. Dandar misappropriated money for his own 12 personal use. 13 As you can see from the backs of these 14 checks, they were deposited with the Putnam 15 Fund. The Putnam Fund is a Massachusetts 16 mutual fund, Massachusetts-located mutual fund. 17 I intend to ask this witness what the title on 18 those accounts are. 19 This is blatant misappropriation of money 20 which we say, and the evidence as presented 21 shows, was money intended for the Estate. 22 If this attorney stole money, 23 misappropriated money intended for the estate, 24 that's grounds for disqualification and 25 disbarment. 124
1 THE COURT: His testimony regarding these 2 amounts previously were not that these amounts 3 were part of the personal loan from Mr. Minton? 4 MR. ROSEN: His testimony was that these 5 came from somebody named the fat man. 6 THE COURT: Right, but these were not a 7 personal loan from Mr. Minton? 8 MR. ROSEN: No, no. He said they were a 9 loan. If you remember, I asked him the 10 question, well, if these are also of the same 11 kind of loan, personal loan, as the money that 12 you admit came from Mr. Minton, how would you 13 pay it back if, according to your story, you 14 don't even know who it is? 15 And he said, well, I would ask Mr. Minton 16 who it was when it came time to paying it back. 17 And the question I put to him is what 18 happens if Mr. Minton died? How would you ever 19 pay back the money? 20 His prior testimony is this was a loan in 21 the same fashion as the Minton money. And that 22 is, it's a loan to him personally to be paid 23 back out of the proceeds of the wrongful death 24 case. 25 THE COURT: Well, then, how does the fact 125
1 that he put these monies into an account other 2 than the firm account contradict that 3 testimony? 4 MR. ROSEN: No. What it contradicts is as 5 follows: Mr. Minton's testimony is that this 6 is his money. Mr. Minton's testimony is that 7 this was part of the money that I gave to you, 8 entrusted to you to use for the benefit of the 9 Estate in the wrongful death case. 10 If you believe Mr. Minton's testimony and 11 Ms. Liebreich's testimony as we've gone over 12 the deposition today that this money was given 13 to Mr. Dandar by Mr. Minton for use by 14 Mr. Dandar for his client's use, for the use of 15 the Estate in the wrongful death case, and if 16 you believe that, and if you find these checks 17 were deposited into a personal account, a 18 mutual fund in Massachusetts, you would find 19 that this attorney has misappropriated money 20 that was entrusted to him for his client, and 21 that's disbarment. 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't even know that 23 Mr. Rosen has a standing to raise that 24 objection. 25 MR. ROSEN: Okay. It's disqualification. 126
1 Forget disbarment. 2 MR. LIROT: I don't even think that it 3 reaches the level for disqualification. 4 There's got to be some allegation that it's 5 been misappropriated. 6 There's been a lot of smoke here, but 7 there has not been one iota of testimony that 8 one dime of money went to coffee or houses in 9 North Carolina. There's just been all of this 10 innuendo. 11 We don't have any testimony showing that 12 one penny was misspent, regardless of what 13 account it was in. 14 If it goes into an interest-bearing 15 account and that money is dedicated for use in 16 the case -- this is, to me, a direct attempt to 17 circumvent the protection provided by the 18 Second District Court of Appeal opinion, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Well, that may be, but we're 20 not in that case; we're in this case. This is 21 a different case. And what is relevant in this 22 case may in some instances and in several 23 instances be different than what is relevant in 24 the other. 25 Part of this case is the claim of the 127
1 tortuous interference with a contractual 2 relationship, and these matters could be 3 relevant to those matters, whereas it would not 4 be relevant to the wrongful death case, so that 5 doesn't concern me so much. 6 However, I don't see that the backs of 7 these checks do anything but confirm what 8 Mr. Dandar has already testified to, which was 9 that these were personal loans to him, and 10 therefore he could use them for any purpose he 11 desired. 12 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, either you believe 13 Mr. Dandar's testimony that these were personal 14 loans to him, in which case he can deposit them 15 anyplace that he wants, or you believe the 16 testimony presented -- 17 THE COURT: I know. That's right. I've 18 got to either believe Minton or I've got to 19 believe him, but these things don't contradict 20 anything he said. 21 MR. ROSEN: No, no. Your Honor, they show 22 something else. 23 At the end of this proceeding, the first 24 thing I think you're going to decide in your 25 own mind is whether you believe Mr. Minton and 128
1 Ms. Liebreich as to this money or Mr. Dandar. 2 If you find -- if you find that -- and 3 believe Mr. Minton -- that this money was not a 4 personal loan to Mr. Dandar, that this money 5 was entrusted to him for the use of his client, 6 the Estate, you would then have to find whether 7 or not that money was not put into a client 8 trust fund, whether it was misappropriated. 9 THE COURT: This is not going to become a 10 bar grievance proceeding. This is a motion for 11 disqualification. 12 And it is conceivable to me -- and I am 13 going to wait to see all of the evidence -- but 14 it is conceivable to me that there may be 15 violations of the canons of ethics that would 16 require discipline. Those are made only by the 17 bar grievance structure. They aren't made by 18 me. 19 MR. ROSEN: Except for one thing. I think 20 the case law is pretty clear that if you find a 21 violation -- that if a violation of the canons 22 of ethics is presented to you, that it's 23 automatic grounds for disqualification. 24 THE COURT: I don't agree with that. And 25 maybe you can enlighten me at the end of this 129
1 hearing as to automatic grounds, but I believe 2 that there has to be more of a nexus between 3 the proper prosecution of the case and the 4 alleged violations. 5 MR. ROSEN: Okay. 6 THE COURT: So I don't find this to be 7 relevant, and I don't want to -- 8 MR. ROSEN: May I ask the question as to 9 the title of the account in which this was 10 deposited into? Would Your Honor be so 11 inclined as to -- 12 THE COURT: No. 13 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will move on, Your 14 Honor. 15 BY MR. ROSEN: 16 Q. Mr. Dandar, turn to Exhibit 42, please. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. This is Mr. Minton's affidavit of December 2000? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. I went over this with you last time; and your 21 testimony was, number one, you didn't prepare it, right? 22 A. That's still correct. 23 Q. Number two, you didn't cause it to be prepared; in 24 other words, you didn't ask anybody to prepare this? 25 A. That's still correct. 130
1 Q. Number three, you don't recall how you even got 2 it. 3 A. I do now. 4 Q. Oh, you remember now since your last testimony? 5 A. I went back to the file; that's right. 6 Q. Tell me how you got it? 7 A. Well, as I told you during the hearing last time, 8 if you had put this with what it was filed with, this was 9 hand-delivered to me -- 10 Q. How about just answering my question. 11 A. This was hand-delivered to me by Mr. Merrett, 12 Mr. Minton's attorney, on a motion to strike Mr. Minton and 13 Stacey Brooks and Grady Ward and other members of the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust from the witness list of the Church of 15 Scientology so that they would quit harassing these people. 16 That's what this affidavit was for, and that's who prepared 17 it. 18 Q. Mr. Dandar, if I may again remind you that you're 19 a witness here. Please don't argue with me. 20 Do you have a document that has refreshed your 21 recollection as to how you received this affidavit? Yes or 22 no. 23 A. I do and so do you. 24 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can I ask for an 25 instruction that this witness behave? 131
1 THE WITNESS: Am I misbehaving? 2 THE COURT: Well, that's a fairly broad 3 term, but, yeah, you're being argumentative. 4 All right? We're going to get through 5 this a lot faster -- and we're not going to get 6 through it fast at all, but we'll get through 7 it a lot faster if we forget the little aside 8 comments and just respond to the questions. 9 Anything that needs to be brought out your 10 attorney will bring out in his 11 cross-examination. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is attached to a 13 motion to strike. It's filed in the wrongful 14 death case. We all have a copy of this. And 15 I'm sure hopefully I brought the copy of the 16 motion to strike with me. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. My question, sir, is: Is there a document that 19 reminds you that you were handed this by Mr. Merrett? Yes 20 or no. 21 A. Yes, it's the motion to strike. 22 Q. Can I please have that document? 23 A. If it's here, you can have it. 24 MR. ROSEN: Counsel? 25 MR. LIROT: I will do my best. 132
1 THE WITNESS: Look in my file next to my 2 computer on the right-hand side. It's the 3 original copy out of the file. If not, it's 4 not here, but it's part of the public record. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. While your Counsel is looking for that, let me ask 7 you one last question on your testimony last time. Last 8 time you said that you don't recall if you even filed this 9 document. 10 A. No. It's definitely filed. 11 Q. Did you file it? 12 A. I believe I filed it attached to a motion to 13 strike; that's correct. 14 Q. A moment ago you said that Mr. Merrett made a 15 motion to strike. 16 A. No. Mr. Merrett hand-delivered this affidavit to 17 my office. 18 Q. Okay. Can I ask you to turn to Exhibit 69. 19 THE WITNESS: Judge, let me know if I'm 20 speaking too loudly because last time I wasn't speaking 21 loud enough. 22 THE COURT: I will. 23 BY MR. ROSEN: 24 Q. Do you have Exhibit 69? 25 A. Yes, I do. 133
1 Q. This is a notice of filing affidavit in support of 2 Plaintiff's motion -- not Mr. Merrett's 3 motion -- Plaintiff's motion to strike witnesses from 4 Defendant's witness list. Is that right? 5 A. That's exactly what I said. 6 Q. Yes or no. Is that right? 7 A. That's exactly what I said. 8 Q. Do you know something? If you want to keep 9 arguing with me, I can argue with you all day long. We're 10 not going to get anywhere. All right? How about answering 11 my question, sir? 12 A. That's an affirmative answer. Yes. 13 Q. And the second page of that bears your signature. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So you filed this motion, this notice of filing 16 affidavit, and with it you filed that affidavit of 17 Mr. Minton, Exhibit 42. You filed it with the court, 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Merrett didn't file it; you filed it. 21 A. I never said he filed it. I said he 22 hand-delivered the affidavit to my office. 23 Q. Out of the clear blue sky, Mr. Dandar, just one 24 day Mr. Merrett showed up at your office with this 25 affidavit, huh? 134
1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you ask him for it? 3 A. I knew he was coming. 4 Q. Sir, did you have any discussion with Mr. Merrett 5 before he happened to show up in your office one day with 6 this affidavit? 7 A. I believe I did. 8 Q. Did you ask him to get this affidavit? 9 A. I believe he told me he was bringing it over. 10 Q. And you didn't know anything about this affidavit 11 before he had it -- according to you -- he had it prepared 12 and it was signed by Mr. Minton and he delivered it to you? 13 A. I'm sure I knew about it. 14 Q. And you discussed and you asked him to prepare it, 15 right? 16 A. He said he had prepared it, and he told me about 17 it, and he brought it over and I filed it. 18 Q. The affidavit was prepared to support a motion 19 that you made. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. So let me see if I understand this. You made a 22 motion to strike, among other people, Mr. Minton from 23 Flag's witness list, right? You made that motion as the 24 Plaintiff, right? 25 A. That's right, one of many. 135
1 Q. And beneficially, somehow, coincidentally, just 2 when you needed some support for that motion, in walks 3 Mr. Merrett to your office from his office in Jacksonville, 4 Florida and hands you an affidavit, right? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Okay. Do you remember being in the courtroom and 7 hearing Mr. Minton's testimony to the effect that towards 8 the end of the year 2000 you told him that we need to 9 start, quote, backtracking, closed quote, on public 10 statements made regarding the agreement to contribute the 11 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? Do you 12 remember hearing that? 13 A. I heard that. 14 Q. And that's a complete lie, right? 15 A. As a result of your extortion of Mr. Minton, 16 that's correct. 17 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I move to strike this. 18 My next application is going to be for an order of 19 contempt. This witness is doing this purposely. 20 THE COURT: You know better, Mr. Dandar. 21 THE WITNESS: Judge, I have to answer what 22 I know. 23 THE COURT: Well, you have to answer the 24 questions. You don't have to embellish on 25 them. This isn't a game. All right? Just 136
1 listen to the questions, answer the questions 2 and we'll get through this. Proceed. 3 THE WITNESS: That's an incorrect 4 statement of Mr. Minton. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. The first time that Mr. Minton made a public 7 statement about this supposed agreement, this agreement for 8 the Estate to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of the 9 wrongful death case to an anti-cult group, was in 1997, 10 right? 11 A. I have no idea. 12 Q. Look at Exhibit 67. It's a transcript of the 13 radio program in which Mr. Minton makes that statement, 14 announces that the Estate has agreed to donate the bulk of 15 the proceeds. You never saw this before, Mr. Dandar? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Never heard about this? 18 A. Oh, I may have heard about it because I think I 19 had some discussions about it. 20 Q. About the time of this event in December of '97? 21 A. This was right after the first vigil in December 22 of '97. 23 Q. Sir, listen to me. At the time of the event, 24 approximately December of '97? Yes or no. 25 A. What's the event? 137
1 Q. The date, December 9th, 1997. 2 A. Oh, you're talking about the date of the document, 3 Exhibit 67? 4 Q. Yeah. 5 A. No. I'm not sure. Most likely, common sense, 6 probably, yes, after this. 7 Q. Let's see if I understand this, then. Mr. Minton 8 made a statement in December of 1997 to the effect and 9 substance that the Estate had agreed to donate the bulk of 10 the proceeds from the wrongful death case to an anti-cult 11 group. That's number one. 12 A. Can you point that out to me? Where is it on 13 this? 14 Q. You don't remember this? 15 A. There's 22 pages. I don't know where it is. I 16 would like to see it. 17 Q. Mr. Dandar, let me go beyond this for a moment. 18 When was the first time that you learned that Mr. Minton 19 had made any statement to the effect that the Estate had 20 agreed to donate the bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful 21 death case to an anti-cult group? When did you first learn 22 of that? 23 MR. LIROT: Assumes facts not in evidence. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember. 138
1 Just give me a little time here. 2 I believe that the first time my clients 3 got together and made a decision to donate the 4 bulk of the proceeds to an anti-cult, 5 non-profit corporation or group was during 6 their depositions in Dallas, Texas at dinner 7 with me present in 1999. 8 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike as 9 intentionally non-responsive. 10 BY MR. ROSEN: 11 Q. The question, again, is when did you first learn 12 that Mr. Minton made a statement to the effect that the 13 Estate had agreed to donate the bulk of the proceeds of the 14 wrongful death case to an anti-cult group? 15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Can you tell me what year it was? 18 A. I can't tell you what year it was. 19 Q. Sir, are you sitting here telling us today in the 20 face of Mr. Minton's testimony that he has made those 21 statements going back to December of 1997, that you don't 22 remember when they were first made? 23 A. I do not keep track of Mr. Minton's statements on 24 the radio or press or wherever. I do not keep track. So 25 if you'll give me something to help refresh my memory, I'll 139
1 be glad to do that. 2 Q. I'm going to do that, Mr. Dandar, but I want to 3 make sure we get your testimony before we refresh. 4 What is your best recollection of when it was 5 before December of 2000 when this affidavit was prepared 6 and you filed it in court to strike Minton from the witness 7 list, when was it before then that you heard that 8 Mr. Minton had made statements, in substance, that the 9 Estate had agreed to donate the substantial portion or the 10 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? When? 11 A. The answer is the same. I don't remember. 12 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you just learned of 13 it in December of 2000 at the time that you obtained this 14 affidavit from Mr. Minton through his counsel and also 15 wrote the same affidavit for your own client? 16 A. No, that's not my -- 17 Q. You learned about it before December 2000, right? 18 A. I just told you; it was in Dallas, Texas in 1999. 19 If you look at the date of the depositions of Dell 20 Liebreich which I believe were marked as exhibits and Ann 21 Carlson and Lee Skelton and Sam Davis, that was the dinner 22 when they finally all got together and made a decision 23 among themselves to do that. It did not involve Mr. Minton 24 or anything he was related to. 25 Q. So let me see if I understand your testimony. You 140
1 deny that you came aware, in or about 1997, that Mr. Minton 2 had made public statements announcing this agreement or 3 this stated intention of the Estate to contribute the bulk 4 of the proceeds to the -- from the wrongful death case. 5 You deny that, right? 6 A. I deny it unless you can show me something to the 7 contrary. I can't sit here and say, oh, yeah, I remember 8 this. I can't do it. 9 Q. Mr. Dandar, your answer is, if I can prove to you 10 that you're not telling the truth, then you'll admit it? 11 A. I can't remember when I first learned that 12 Mr. Minton made a statement like that. 13 Q. Okay. Why don't you open Exhibit 70, Mr. Dandar. 14 A. All right. 15 Q. Let's turn to Page 64. 16 Question, Line 15, "Have you had any discussion 17 with Mr. Dandar as to how any recovery in this case would 18 be used?" 19 Answer, "Yes." 20 "What is that discussion?" 21 Answer -- this is Mr. Minton's 22 testimony -- "Well, I suggested to him after having heard 23 Mike Rinder particularly talk about Dell being a 24 money-grubbing woman, that I asked him if she needed money, 25 number one. He said, no, she's retired and she's fine. 141
1 "So I said, in order to get these 2 Scientologists off the case that everybody is in this for 3 the money, she ought to just agree to donate the bulk of 4 any money that she gets out of the case to a cult-awareness 5 organization to keep other Lisa McPhersons from happening. 6 That's it." 7 "Was this a dinner in Boston?" 8 "No, this was a lunch in Clearwater." 9 You were there for that testimony, right? 10 A. That has nothing to do with the public 11 announcement. Yeah, I was there. 12 Q. Oh, okay. All right. No public announcement. 13 When was the first time you heard Mr. Minton say -- public 14 announcement, deposition or otherwise -- that there was an 15 agreement with the Estate to donate the bulk of the 16 proceeds? What year, Mr. Dandar? 17 A. Well, this deposition -- 18 Q. What year, Mr. Dandar? 19 A. Well, this deposition testimony is probably 20 correct, in 1998. That's probably correct. But that was a 21 private conversation with me and Mr. Minton that did not 22 involve the entire family. 23 Q. Mr. Dandar, you're not answering my question. 24 When was it that you first learned that Mr. Minton 25 said -- claimed an agreement for the Estate to donate the 142
1 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? What 2 year, Mr. Dandar? 3 A. Well, now, that's a different question, and my 4 answer is the same. I don't remember there being such a 5 time until December or until 1999 at the depositions of the 6 beneficiaries of the Fannie McPherson Estate. 7 Q. Mr. Dandar, you were present for this deposition; 8 were you not, sir? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you had an opportunity to 11 cross-examine Mr. Minton, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you ever say to Mr. Minton in words or 14 substance in this deposition or otherwise, by the way, 15 you're wrong; there isn't any agreement for the Estate to 16 contribute the bulk of the funds? 17 A. No, because -- 18 Q. I didn't ask you because. I asked you yes or no. 19 Did you ever say that? 20 A. Of course not, because he didn't answer it that 21 way. Look at Line 14. 22 Q. You're telling us that the agreement was first 23 made in May of 1999. This deposition is January of 1998. 24 You still stick to your testimony, sir, that 25 the first time that any such agreement was made was at 143
1 dinner with you in May of 1999 in Dallas? Yes or no. Is 2 that your testimony? 3 A. That's right, because this deposition talks about 4 an idea without even conferring with the client. 5 Q. I didn't ask you about because. I asked you yes 6 or no, sir. 7 A. You're misleading. I have to straighten that out. 8 Q. No, no, you don't. You're a witness. 9 MR. LIROT: Objection. He has a right to 10 explain his answers. 11 THE COURT: He's not explaining it. He's 12 not even being responsive. So I would like for 13 him to respond to the question. If you need to 14 have him explain it, you can do that when you 15 get up. 16 THE WITNESS: I apologize to the Court. 17 That was not my intent. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Now, you sat in this courtroom today and heard as 20 we went over the May 1999 deposition testimony of Dell, of 21 Ann, her sister, and of Lee testifying to the fact that 22 there was an agreement to donate the bulk of the proceeds. 23 You heard that testimony, right? 24 A. That's true testimony. 25 Q. And you were sitting in those depositions, those 144
1 three depositions. You were defending them, right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. In May of '99, right, Mr. Dandar? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. At any time, did you correct any of those 6 depositions and say, no, it's not true? 7 A. No, because that was truthful testimony. 8 Q. You know what, sir, if you say because once more, 9 I'm going to ask for an order of summary contempt. 10 THE WITNESS: Judge, tell me if I'm doing 11 something wrong here. He's misleading. 12 THE COURT: I've told you three times. What 13 you've got to do is just answer his question. 14 You don't need to elaborate on it. You just 15 need to answer it. He didn't ask you why. He 16 just asked you: Yes? No? Did you? Didn't 17 you? 18 Answer the questions and we'll get through 19 this, okay? You'll have your opportunity to 20 explain anything you want to explain. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to speed 22 this along, but all right. Go ahead, 23 Mr. Rosen. Sorry. 24 BY MR. ROSEN: 25 Q. So you were aware, at least in May of 1999, of 145
1 that testimony, having sat there. 2 A. Absolutely. 3 Q. Okay. What is it that caused you to then prepare 4 Exhibit 33, your client's affidavit of December of 2000, 5 saying that there's no binding agreement? 6 A. Because of the false allegations of the Church of 7 Scientology in the wrongful death case where they kept 8 saying there is an agreement with Minton from the 9 beneficiaries -- and that was a lie, and I had enough of it 10 and so did my clients and so did Mr. Minton, so did Stacey 11 Brooks -- and we said we've got to put an end to this 12 because Scientology is abusing the wrongful death 13 litigation by all of these lies. 14 Q. And the particular relief you wanted was to 15 convince the wrongful death court that this was not true 16 about any agreement, and therefore Mr. Minton's name should 17 be stricken from Flag's witness list, right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Now, I want you to compare, put side by side the 20 affidavit you prepared that your client signed, Exhibit 33, 21 in December of 2000, with the affidavit that Mr. Minton 22 signed, Exhibit 42, and also within a week of each other. 23 Have you got them, Mr. Dandar? 24 A. I have both of them. Which paragraphs would you 25 like to look at? 146
1 Q. These affidavits are substantively the same in the 2 sense that the key statement is, "There is no agreement or 3 no binding agreement for the Estate to contribute the 4 monies, the proceeds of the wrongful death case," right? 5 They both have that statement. 6 A. No. They're all worded differently. 7 Q. I know. I said substantively, Mr. Dandar. Do you 8 understand what the word substantively means? 9 A. Not the way you're using it, no. 10 Q. Is the substance of each of the two affidavits the 11 same, namely that there is no agreement respecting the 12 proceeds? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. Okay. Now, you're telling me you didn't ask for 15 this affidavit, didn't know it was coming. Mr. Merrett 16 called you one day, said he had it, and it was just this 17 remarkable coincidence that within one week of each other 18 these two affidavits -- substantively the same -- are 19 prepared; is that right? It's a coincidence. 20 A. You're incorrect, Mr. Rosen. 21 Q. Can you explain to me how it is that the 22 coincidence of Mr. Merrett having prepared and then 23 delivered to you this affidavit of Mr. Minton within a week 24 of Ms. Liebreich's affidavit on the very same subject? 25 A. Do you want me to explain it? 147
1 Q. Yes, sir. Would you please explain it? 2 A. All right. There is no coincidence. As I 3 previously testified, Mr. Merrett and I had discussions 4 about this. And I prepared the affidavit for my clients, 5 and Mr. Merrett prepared the affidavits for his clients, 6 and I filed a motion to strike. There's no coincidence at 7 all. 8 Q. No coincidence. So you did ask and you did know 9 that Mr. Merrett was going to prepare this affidavit? 10 A. We had discussed it, yes. 11 Q. Okay. So it didn't come as a surprise to you when 12 he then gave it to you, right? 13 A. I never said it did; that's correct. 14 Q. Okay. Would you please turn to Exhibit 41? And 15 Exhibit 41 is your own affidavit which essentially says the 16 same thing. 17 A. Essentially, that's correct. 18 Q. No agreement. 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. So all of the sudden we have this flood of three 21 affidavits -- yours, your client's and Minton's -- coming 22 in all denying that an agreement existed, right? 23 A. No. I didn't see a flood. 24 Q. Huh? 25 A. I did not see a flood. It all was planned and 148
1 prearranged and coordinated between me and Mr. Merrett. 2 Q. Why, then, in December of 2000, rather than 3 December of '99, if there was no agreement, why wasn't it 4 denied earlier? 5 A. Because at this time -- let me make sure I've got 6 my dates right -- hold on -- wait a minute. What was the 7 date of the -- yeah, this is all wrong, Mr. Rosen. 8 My affidavit is dated 2001, Exhibit 41, and the 9 other affidavits which are Exhibit 42 are dated in December 10 of 2000. That's a whole year apart. 11 Q. Okay. Let's take the two in December of 2000. 12 Why all of the sudden affidavits in December of 2000 to 13 correct what you say is a misstatement that had existed for 14 some time before then? 15 A. The case had recently been transferred from 16 Hillsborough County over the summer of 2000 to Pinellas 17 County. Judge Quesada -- there was some discovery demands 18 going on. 19 Judge Quesada had changed the order of Judge 20 Moody, the prior judge in Tampa, and permitted broad 21 discovery, so this was -- a lot more abuse of discovery was 22 going on, and I wanted to put a stop to it because of the 23 false allegations by Scientology. 24 Q. Okay. Now, your position is that there was no 25 agreement, right? Go back to Exhibit 70, sir. I would 149
1 like to pursue this with you a bit further. 2 This is a deposition of Robert Minton, January 3 13th, 1998, almost two years before, Exhibit 70. We went 4 over this, sir. 5 A. Did we talk about that already? 6 Q. Huh? 7 A. I'm trying to find it. Here it is. All right. 8 Okay. 9 Q. I went over with you on Page 64 the discussion 10 with the family about how the funds would be used and going 11 to the top of 65 Minton's suggestion that to avoid the 12 money grubbing, that they ought to agree to donate this. 13 And you see we got down to about Line 6 or 7 14 and the question was, "Was this at dinner in Boston?" 15 "No, this was at this lunch in Clearwater." 16 So lunch between you and Mr. Minton in 17 Clearwater, right? 18 Line 11, question, "This is in December?" 19 Answer, "Right, this is December of 1997." 20 "And his response was what?" Question. 21 His -- meaning yours -- "Well, he says, 'I've 22 already had that idea, but I haven't discussed it with Dell 23 Liebreich yet." 24 Question, "Has he since told you after the 25 December lunch that he discussed it with Ms. Liebreich?" 150
1 Answer, "Yes." 2 "What did he say?" 3 Question. 4 "He says she agreed to do just that." 5 Question, "When did he tell you this?" 6 He meaning you, Mr. Dandar. 7 "I think the 5th of December." 8 According to that testimony, Mr. Minton has 9 testified under oath at a time when he was supporting you 10 financially that on the 5th of December you told him the 11 Estate had agreed; Dell had agreed. 12 Was he lying? 13 A. You have to watch how you're saying that. No. 14 Q. Was he lying or not? 15 A. No. It was an idea that Dell thought was a good 16 idea. There had been no discussion or agreement with the 17 family. 18 Q. Sir, "What did he say?" 19 Answer, "He says she agreed to do just that." 20 Line 20. 21 That's what you told Mr. Minton in December of 22 1997. You told him your one client, the personal 23 representative of the Estate, had agreed to donate the bulk 24 of the proceeds. 25 Isn't that what you told Mr. Minton, sir? 151
1 A. No. What I told Mr. Minton was Dell thought it 2 was a good idea. 3 Q. But Mr. Minton, who at that time was your 4 benefactor, testified not that it was a good idea, quote, 5 he, meaning you, said she agreed to do just that. 6 A. Well, to me that means the same thing. 7 Q. "She agreed to do just that," means she thought it 8 was a good idea, right? 9 A. That's right. 10 Q. That's a synonym, right? 11 A. She was very excited about it. 12 Q. Uh-huh. Well, you sat there and listened to this. 13 So at least as of January of 1998, you were aware that 14 Mr. Minton had said -- indeed not public -- better -- under 15 oath in your presence -- that Dell Liebreich had agreed to 16 donate the bulk of the proceeds to an anti-cult group? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. You sat there and heard it? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And you're telling us that the first time that 21 this subject ever came up was a year and a half later in 22 dinner in May of 1999 in Dallas. Is that what you're 23 telling us? 24 A. I'm telling you that's the truth. That happened 25 with the family all together because Sam was from Mexico 152
1 and he doesn't get to Dallas often. 2 Q. Okay, Mr. Dandar. If that's your testimony, 3 that's your testimony. 4 A. I'm sorry. Is that a question? 5 Q. Okay. Let's go on. Mr. Dandar, would you go to 6 Exhibit 1, please. 7 A. All right. 8 Q. Exhibit 1 are the four checks. Do you see that? 9 A. There are four checks. 10 Q. They were marked last time. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. If you will turn to Exhibits 10, 13, 14, and 15. 13 These are the backs of the checks. 14 A. No, they're not. 15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Not 15. 16 A. These were all the ones we produced in the 17 wrongful death case. Not all of them, but these are some 18 of them. Ten is a deposit slip. 19 Q. Okay. Let's go over -- you can hold those in 20 front of you, Mr. Dandar. I'm going to follow Exhibit 1. 21 The first check on Exhibit 1 is a $100,000 check on October 22 6th, 1997. Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The back shows that that was deposited into your 25 client trust account, right? 153
1 A. And what number is the back? 2 Q. I'm sorry. You testified last time it was 3 deposited into your client trust account. 4 A. Well, that's likely. 5 Q. Say again? 6 A. That's likely, yes. 7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the second check, 8/27/99, 8 $250,000 to you. What account was that deposited into? 9 A. That was deposited into a Dandar & Dandar account. 10 Q. Dandar & Dandar operating account, right? 11 A. I don't think so. In fact, I would be positive 12 it's not an operating account. 13 Q. Huh? 14 A. I'm positive it's not an operating account. 15 Q. Sir, it's not a client trust account; is it? 16 A. Well, I don't know. 17 Q. Well, do I need to refresh your recollection with 18 your testimony from the last time that this check -- that 19 the back of it, which is Exhibit 13, is -- the deposit is 20 Dandar & Dandar, P.A., quote, for McPherson. You testified 21 it wasn't a client trust account. 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Okay. Now let's go to the third check. The third 24 check -- 25 A. It is a Dandar & Dandar account. 154
1 Q. Right. The third check, $200,000, January 14th, 2 2000. What account was that deposited into, sir? 3 A. Well, that's a Dandar & Dandar account because 4 it's made payable to Dandar & Dandar. 5 Q. Not a client trust account, right? 6 A. It's not the trust account. 7 Q. Do you have more than one client trust account? 8 A. Well, these checks were deposited into 9 interest-bearing accounts. 10 Q. Sir, was this check deposited into a client trust 11 account? Yes or no. 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. And now we come to the fourth check. And 14 that is 5/25/01, $250,000. That check was deposited into 15 your personal account, right? 16 A. That was made payable to me; that's correct. 17 Q. Deposited into your personal account. 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Okay. Now, the only check we see here going into 20 a client trust account is the very first one, the hundred 21 thousand dollars, right? 22 A. No. No, I can't say that. You're saying that's 23 the only one or just the first one you know about? 24 I misunderstood your question. 25 Q. The only one of the ones you've produced, the only 155
1 one of the checks and the deposit slips that you have 2 produced. There's only one going into a client trust 3 account, right, the first one? 4 A. No. The first one went into the Trust account of 5 Dandar & Dandar, P.A. There's only one such account. 6 Q. Client trust accounts where you put clients' 7 monies. 8 A. That's right. That was the first check. 9 Q. And that is the only check that was ever deposited 10 from Minton or from Switzerland -- it was the only check 11 ever deposited into a client trust account, correct? 12 A. Into the IOTA account, that's the only check. 13 That's right. 14 Q. Is there some other client account that you 15 deposit monies into? 16 A. Well, in this particular case, yes. These are 17 accounts of Dandar & Dandar. They said for McPherson. 18 Q. Is that a client trust account under the bar 19 rules? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. So how about if you stop fencing with me 22 and answer the question. 23 The only check that you ever got from 24 Mr. Minton or these Swiss banks that ever went into a 25 client trust account under the Florida Bar rules was the 156
1 first one, October of '97, right? 2 A. No, I can't answer that. 3 Q. Do you have any others? 4 A. Mr. Minton was very generous. I don't know if 5 I've put any other checks that he gave me into the firm's 6 IOTA trust account, other than the first one. 7 Q. Or the Swiss checks. 8 A. Well, those for sure were payable to me. They 9 didn't go into any trust account. 10 Q. Okay. So now let's see if I understand this. At 11 least on the records before us, only one check that you 12 ever got from Mr. Minton went into a client trust account, 13 the first one, October of '97, right? 14 A. That's correct, of the ones that you presented. 15 Q. And you were served with a notice to produce -- 16 A. You're interrupting my answer. 17 Q. You answered that question. That's correct. 18 And you were served with a notice to produce at 19 this hearing last time documents showing the depositories 20 into which you deposited the other checks from Mr. Minton. 21 And you filed a written response, apart from 22 objections, saying that the documents do not exist. Do you 23 remember that? 24 A. That's correct. We objected to it. 25 Q. And then you answered -- without waiving the 157
1 objections, you answered further the documents do not 2 exist, right? 3 A. I think that was signed by my brother, but I can 4 tell you -- well, go ahead and ask your question. 5 Q. And then you told us that you don't have any 6 financial records because your father used to have your 7 records and he died, and now your mother has your 8 records -- excuse me -- your sister has your records. 9 Is this still your testimony, sir, you don't 10 have any records to show where the other checks, the ones 11 we don't have, were deposited? Is that still your 12 testimony under oath, Mr. Dandar? 13 A. My testimony hasn't changed. It's all the truth, 14 yes. 15 Q. Okay. We know that there are four checks here, 16 and we know that there are three or four missing because 17 the total was 1.3 million, right? 18 A. No, that's not true. 19 Q. How many personal checks did Mr. Minton write 20 addressed to either Dandar & Dandar or Ken Dandar? 21 A. I have no idea. 22 Q. Sir, the ones that are before you, Exhibit 1, the 23 only ones that were produced, are 250, 200, 250 and a 24 hundred. That's $800,000. 25 A. What exhibit is that? 158
1 Q. Exhibit 1. 2 A. That's because that was the court order that we 3 complied with. 4 Q. Sir, how about not making a speech. How about 5 listen for a question. Those checks total $800,000, right? 6 A. I take back what I just said. Some of these 7 checks were not pursuant to the court order. You obtained 8 them some other way. 9 Q. I don't care if you take back what you said. It 10 was irrelevant anyway. 11 A. What's your question? Sorry. There are more 12 checks than this. Was that your question? 13 Q. Yeah, there are. 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. And the total of these checks that were signed, 16 the checks on the personal accounts signed by Mr. Minton 17 and given to you, total 1.3 million, right? 18 A. No, that's not right. 19 Q. How much are they? 20 A. What point in time are you talking about? 21 Q. As of right now, forget the Swiss bank checks for 22 a moment and add up all of the checks that Mr. Minton gave 23 you that he signed, personal checks. How much does it add 24 up to? 25 A. I don't know. I assert the privilege and I assert 159
1 the stay order of the Second DCA in this case. 2 Q. What is the privilege, Mr. Dandar? Personal 3 privileges to money somebody else gave you? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. A loan? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I ask that this witness 8 refuses to answer this question; disqualification is 9 automatic in the face of this. This cannot be tolerated. 10 An attorney charged with this conduct says I 11 have a privilege and then refuses to produce the documents 12 claiming his financial records don't exist? 13 THE WITNESS: You asked for records from Dell 14 Liebreich -- 15 MR. ROSEN: I haven't asked you anything, 16 Mr. Dandar. 17 THE WITNESS: I thought you did. 18 MR. ROSEN: There's no question pending before 19 you, sir. 20 THE WITNESS: Judge, may I ask you a question 21 for guidance, please? 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain at all, unless 24 you tell me, how any of this has to do with your case on 25 tortuous interference and breach of contract concerning the 160
1 funding, the loans that I obtained in the wrongful death 2 case, and particularly in light of the two appellate 3 decisions and the stay order in this case that prevents 4 that type of discovery. And I'm just not sure. 5 THE COURT: Well, until I learn the 6 information, I don't know how they relate 7 either; but to the extent that there are 8 ethical violations or criminal violations that 9 may affect your representation in this case, 10 then they are relevant. 11 THE WITNESS: May I just request that 12 rather than tell my opponent in a wrongful 13 death case any of these answers, that I tell 14 you anything that you'd like to know in camera 15 concerning any of this money, any of the loans. 16 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, let me see if I 17 can go through this another way. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Mr. Minton testified that the total he gave you in 20 personal checks was 1.3 million. He testified to that in a 21 deposition and he testified to it in this courtroom. Are 22 you saying that that's wrong? 23 A. He didn't testify that way. He testified back in 24 May of 2000, I believe, in his deposition, that he believed 25 at that time the amount of money that he had given me, 161
1 either through Dandar & Dandar check or Ken Dandar, was in 2 the amount of 1.3 or $1,050,000. He wasn't sure. 3 Q. And he gave you another $250,000 in May of 2001, a 4 personal check? 5 A. A year later? 6 Q. Sir, did he give you a check in May of 2001 for 7 $250,000? 8 A. Well, that's what this document says. Yes, I 9 would have to agree. 10 Q. So that's a-million-50 and $250,000 comes to 11 a-million-three; doesn't it, Mr. Dandar? 12 A. As of 2001. 13 Q. Sir, you're an attorney. Do you think that this 14 is productive? 15 As of today, from the beginning of time to 16 today, isn't it correct that the total he gave you in 17 personal checks was 1.3 million? 18 A. I can't say. I don't know. 19 Q. What do you think it is? 20 A. I have no idea. 21 Q. And you haven't bothered to look? 22 A. I haven't bothered to add it up and look; that's 23 correct. 24 Q. Look at Exhibit 10 for a moment. Exhibit 10 comes 25 from your files. It's a copy of your deposit slip, right? 162
1 A. Well, let me find it. That's right. 2 Q. This is a deposit slip that if I walk into a bank 3 and make a deposit, I get a piece of the carbon copy slip, 4 right? 5 A. No. This is one that's printed with my firm's 6 name on it. It's not one you just pick up from a counter 7 at a bank. 8 Q. Did I say anything about picking it up from a 9 counter? 10 A. I believe you did. 11 Q. You know something, if you would just listen, 12 Mr. Dandar, and stop trying to confuse the issue. 13 This is a deposit slip which is a carbon-back 14 deposit slip. You give it to the bank with your deposit; 15 you get a copy for your records, right? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. This deposit was made on February 6th of 1998. Am 18 I reading it right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you have a copy of this, and you produced it 21 in discovery, right? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. Right? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. So, Mr. Dandar, where are the other deposit slips 163
1 like this covering the remaining checks beyond Exhibit 1? 2 Where are they? Does your dead father have them or does 3 your sister have them? 4 THE WITNESS: You know, that is outrageous, 5 Judge. I wish you would stop this. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Who has them, Mr. Dandar? 8 A. I refuse to answer your question. 9 Q. On what grounds? 10 A. You're being obnoxious. Don't bring up my dead 11 father. 12 THE COURT: All right. Hold it right here. 13 We're taking a short break here, okay? Take 14 five minutes. 15 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.) 16 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I wish to 17 apologize to Mr. Dandar and to the Court for 18 the remark prior to the break. 19 I was intending to just ask Mr. Dandar if 20 he was continuing to adhere to his earlier 21 testimony respecting the location of his 22 financial records, and it came out in a way 23 which I regret, so I apologize. 24 THE COURT: All right. We're all adults 25 here, right? 164
1 MR. ROSEN: I think when it comes out 2 wrong, I should say so. 3 BY MR. ROSEN: 4 Q. Mr. Dandar, let me direct your attention back to 5 Exhibit 10, the deposit slip. I notice on the back of it 6 it's written R. Minton, a hundred thousand dollars. 7 A. On the back? On the front? 8 Q. Excuse me. Not on the back. On the deposit slip 9 is written R. Minton, a hundred thousand dollars? 10 A. Yeah, it's one of six centuries. 11 Q. And is it the practice, then for you to enumerate 12 including identifying where the check is from when you do a 13 deposit? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So if you would produce to us deposit slips for 16 the two Swiss bank checks, would we see Mr. Minton's name 17 on there or would we see the fat man? 18 A. You wouldn't see anything. 19 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar, getting back to this, I want to 20 make sure we understand your view and your present 21 position. 22 You were served with a notice to produce asking 23 for the production of all of your bank records showing 24 where the various funds were deposited, and you filed a 25 written response beyond the objection saying the documents 165
1 do not exist. 2 When I asked you about it last time you told 3 me, oh, that was my brother; he did that. He signed it. 4 Now that you've had a chance to review that, 5 sir, is that statement correct, that the financial 6 documents showing the deposits of the other checks, they 7 don't exist? Is it true? Yes or no. 8 A. Yes, they do not exist as you phrased the 9 production and addressed it to Dell Liebreich. That's 10 correct. 11 Q. No, sir. We addressed it to you. 12 A. No, sir. It was addressed to Dell Liebreich 13 individually. 14 Q. Sir, we addressed a separate document request to 15 you asking for your records, financial records. 16 A. Well, then, produce it. Let me see it. 17 Q. Sir, let me ask you a question. Let's not fence 18 anymore. 19 A. I'm not fencing. 20 Q. Do your financial records showing the deposits of 21 all of the Minton checks that are not here and of the two 22 Swiss bank checks, do they exist? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Are they within your custody and control? 25 A. The personal ones are. 166
1 Q. How about the firm ones? 2 A. From way back then, I don't think so. 3 Q. How about from March of 2002? 4 A. Well, March of 2002 is a personal check, so that 5 is in my possession and control, and I objected to 6 producing those. 7 Q. Excuse me. You have the checks -- the deposit 8 slips like Exhibit 10, you still have them -- your firm 9 still has them -- for the other checks from Mr. Minton; 10 don't you? 11 A. I don't know. Well, if we have them, we only have 12 the old ones because they were produced in the wrongful 13 death case. 14 Q. Sir, you didn't hand over the originals. You 15 produced copies. Now, I will ask you one more time. 16 Of the missing personal checks Mr. Minton wrote 17 to you, do you or do you not have copies of the deposit 18 slips or records showing the deposit? 19 A. I don't understand what your question is. I don't 20 understand when you say missing personal checks. There's 21 none missing. 22 Q. Exhibit 1 has four checks totaling $800,000. Did 23 Mr. Minton write any checks to you beyond the four that are 24 here? 25 A. Of course he did. 167
1 Q. Thank you. 2 Now, I will try it again, Mr. Dandar. I will 3 keep at it until we get the answer. 4 With respect to any number of checks that 5 Mr. Minton wrote to you, personal checks, written to either 6 you, Ken Dandar or Dandar & Dandar, that are not part of 7 Exhibit 1, do the bank records showing those deposits exist 8 today? 9 A. The bank records showing the deposits to the -- to 10 my personal accounts for checks made personally to me do 11 exist, are in my custody and control. 12 Q. How about the ones made out to Dandar & Dandar? 13 Do they exist today, Mr. Dandar? 14 A. It all depends on the age of the document. 15 Q. Tell me what that -- how old does it have to be 16 that you threw it out? 17 A. I believe those documents only go back three 18 years. 19 Q. Okay. So you can produce documents -- sir, aren't 20 you aware that you're supposed to keep these documents 21 three years after you file a tax return? 22 A. That's what I meant. 23 Q. Okay. So if it's now April of 2002, that means 24 you would have all of those bank records for 2001, 2000 and 25 1999? 168
1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And now I will ask you one more time. I don't 3 want to fight with you about the wording of notices to 4 produce and your view of what the word payment means. 5 Will you or will you not produce those records 6 tomorrow when we resume this hearing? 7 A. Number one, no. Number two, we're not resuming 8 this tomorrow, as far as I know. It was only set for 9 today. 10 Q. Sir, will you or will you not produce those 11 records whenever we resume before Judge Baird? 12 A. No. 13 Q. No? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And what are the grounds? 16 A. The same grounds that the Second District Court of 17 Appeal granted the stay. 18 Q. That's not in this case. 19 A. It is in this case, sir. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. That's my grounds. 22 Q. And you're going to stand on those grounds that 23 you say is the privilege of the Second DCA and refuse to 24 disclose those documents, right? 25 A. The Second DCA stay order in this case. 169
1 Q. Sir, what about the deposit slips for the two 2 checks totaling $750,000; are they covered by the stay 3 order? 4 A. Well, yeah. That's all covered by the stay order. 5 That's all from Mr. Minton. 6 Q. Sir, according to your testimony, that's not 7 Mr. Minton's money. 8 A. It's loans from Mr. Minton to me as he testified 9 five times. 10 Q. Are you now agreeing that the 750 grand in the 11 Swiss bank checks were loans from Mr. Minton to you? 12 A. No, they were given to me, but they were from this 13 third party, just like the LMT third-party checks. 14 Q. Sir, sir, please don't volunteer stuff. I mean, 15 you're not being responsive. 16 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Ask your question. I will 17 just say yes or no. 18 Q. You're aware that the -- are you aware that the 19 stay order that you're referring to applies to money from 20 Mr. Minton? 21 A. Partially, yes. 22 Q. And it doesn't say that you cannot -- that you 23 have any protection or any excuse for not producing records 24 of monies loaned to you by the fat man, right? 25 A. It covers that as well. 170
1 Q. The stay order says the fat man too? 2 A. The stay order says stay of the information 3 requested in your interrogatories which includes third 4 parties other than Mr. Minton. 5 Q. Is there any other reason other than your view of 6 the stay order that you will not produce these? 7 A. Privilege. 8 Q. What privilege? 9 A. I have a personal privacy privilege. 10 Q. And does your firm have a personal privacy 11 privilege too? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. A law firm has a personal privacy privilege? 14 A. Under the Second District court opinions, we have 15 a ground not to produce -- 16 Q. Does an inanimate being, entity, a law firm, a 17 professional association, does it have a privacy privilege 18 or not? 19 A. Yes, it does. It's a for-profit corporation. It 20 has a privacy privilege, as I understand it. 21 Q. All right, Mr. Dandar. Look, I want the record to 22 reflect you've been given every opportunity to produce 23 these documents. You don't want to. We will argue the 24 adverse inferences to be drawn. 25 Let's go to the next question, Exhibit 67. I 171
1 showed you this before. This is the transcript of the 2 radio broadcast of Mr. Minton announcing the deal with the 3 Estate, December 9th, 1997. 4 A. Exhibit number, please. 5 Q. Exhibit 67. 6 A. This is the one we covered already? 7 Q. Yeah. I just want to ask you to go back and ask 8 you a couple of questions about it. 9 A. All right. Go ahead. 10 Q. Did you ever see this before? 11 A. You asked that. I don't think I have. 12 Q. Mr. Dandar, I am prepared to put in the transcript 13 of the January 1998 deposition of Mr. Minton which you 14 attended, I'm prepared to put the counsel on the stand who 15 conducted that deposition, and I'm prepared to show you 16 that this very document was marked as an exhibit and you 17 were given a copy. Do you deny that? 18 A. No. If the record says that, that would be 19 correct. I can't sit here and tell you. 20 Q. In other words, if I can prove it to you, you 21 admit it. That's it. If I prove it to you, you admit it. 22 And if I can't prove it, you don't. Right? I will 23 withdraw that question. 24 Does that help refresh your memory, sir, as to 25 whether what I just told you about you being handed a copy 172
1 of this document marked as an exhibit in January 1998 in a 2 deposition of Mr. Minton taking by Sandy Weinberg? Does 3 that refresh your recollection at all? 4 A. Only if you show it to me, but I will take you at 5 your word that that's there. And if that's there, then I 6 have seen this. 7 Q. And you saw this document, then, in January of 8 1998 knowing that it was wrong that you had not told 9 Mr. Minton, as we read before, that Dell had agreed. You 10 did nothing, you said nothing for two years, right? 11 A. I can't answer the question because you have to 12 refer me to the page of this document so I can read it. I 13 can't guess. 14 Q. Okay. Let's move on. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Of the checks that we have, the four personal 17 checks and the two Swiss bank checks, it appears that only 18 the Swiss bank checks were deposited in repositories 19 outside the state of Florida. 20 Is that right? 21 A. No, that's not right. 22 Q. Did you deposit any of the four personal checks in 23 a depository outside the state of Florida? 24 A. No, I think the -- I think the May 2000 check is 25 the only one that went out of state. 173
1 Q. Look at the back of the March 2002 check, the Stan 2 Putnam fund. 3 A. Well, that's the same place, then. 4 Q. The two bank checks from Switzerland were 5 deposited into a mutual fund out of the state of Florida, 6 right? 7 A. No, I don't think so. 8 Q. Okay. Were any other -- 9 A. Wait, wait. Just back up. Hold on. What two 10 checks are you talking about, the ones that are bank checks 11 with no one's name on it but mine? 12 Q. The two Swiss bank checks, Exhibits 5 and 6. You 13 deposited those out of state. 14 A. No, just one. 15 Q. The $500,000? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. And in what state or depository was the $250,000 18 one deposited? Take a look at the back of the check. 19 A. I remember. It was here. It was in Florida. 20 Q. Take a look at the back of the check. You have 21 it. 22 A. What exhibit is it? 23 Q. 59. 24 A. Okay. Well, what does it say? I can't read that. 25 Q. You can't read the back of 59? 174
1 A. No. I challenge you to. I can't read the back of 2 that. And how do I know what check that came from? 3 Q. Look at 58A. Those are the two backs of the 4 checks. 59 and 58A are the two Swiss bank checks. You 5 can't read the words Putnam fund on them? 6 A. 58A, I cannot read that. That's the back of 7 something. That appears to be my signature. And 59 is the 8 back of something I cannot read. And I can't tell you the 9 way you did this what this is, the back of what; I have no 10 idea. 11 Q. All right. In any event, your testimony is that 12 the $500,000 check was deposited out of state, the 250 was 13 deposited in state. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Okay. Mr. Dandar, look at Exhibit 15. 16 A. Is that something new? 17 Q. You have it there. 18 A. All right. 19 Q. That's another check, $250,000 made out to you 20 from Mr. Minton, a personal check. That check was 21 deposited into a Putnam Fund out of state, right? 22 A. That's probably the same account, if I can read 23 it. 24 Q. It is the same account, Putnam Fund of 25 Massachusetts. 175
1 A. Well, they have the better return. That's right. 2 If that's what it says, it says. I can't read it. 3 Q. And the title of that account is Kennan Dandar, 4 right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Okay. Let's go on. As we said before, the only 7 check we have before us that was deposited into the client 8 trust account was the first one for a hundred grand, 9 October of '97. 10 A. The IOTA account; that's correct. 11 Q. After that, as money was required for expenses for 12 the wrongful death case, Mr. Dandar, what you did is you 13 transferred money from the Dandar & Dandar account to the 14 personal account into the client trust fund so you could 15 issue checks on the client trust fund as if the money was 16 sitting in that fund. That's what you did, right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. Exhibit 15A is an example of what you did. It's a 19 whole series of checks, 15A, going right up to June 15, 20 2001, checks that you wrote for expenses in the wrongful 21 death case. 22 A. Seven checks? That's not a lot of checks. That's 23 just seven checks. 24 Q. I said a series of checks. 25 A. A series of seven checks. Okay. 176
1 Q. Right up to June 15th, 2001, right? And each one 2 of these is drawn on the Dandar & Dandar client trust 3 account. 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. In order to get -- in order to write these checks, 6 what you had to do was you had to transfer money that you 7 had deposited into either the Dandar & Dandar account or 8 your personal account into the client trust fund to write 9 these checks? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. Why didn't you write the checks out of the Dandar 12 & Dandar account? Why go through a two-step process? 13 A. Because -- and I probably misspoke last time we 14 were here -- but the costs are really written out of the 15 trust account, so we have a better accounting. Then it 16 goes into our computer program as to all of the costs that 17 we expend on every case. 18 Q. Do you think you have a better accounting system 19 than the state of Florida has directed that attorneys 20 follow? 21 A. I think we follow the accounting system. 22 Q. Actually, Mr. Dandar, you could have done a 23 one-step in terms of just writing out a check from the 24 Dandar & Dandar account to Dr. Bandt or whoever that was, 25 but instead you went through a two-step process of first 177
1 transferring money from the Dandar & Dandar account to the 2 trust account to then write the check. 3 And the reason you did that was to conceal that 4 the money had not been in the trust account? 5 A. That's not -- 6 MR. LIROT: Objection. 7 BY MR. ROSEN: 8 Q. Isn't that true? 9 MR. LIROT: Objection, no foundation. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true at all. 12 BY MR. ROSEN: 13 Q. So let me see if I understand, if I have your 14 explanation. 15 The reason you went through this two-step 16 process of first transferring the money from the Dandar & 17 Dandar account into the trust account and then issuing the 18 checks from the trust account is because it, quote, made 19 your accounting easier, right? 20 A. Well, that's just one of the reasons. 21 Q. Oh, well, tell me all of the other reasons, sir. 22 A. Well, first of all, the money was all mine, number 23 one. Number two, the money in the other account was making 24 interest, so I would have more money and go back to 25 Mr. Minton less, and I was always trying to do that. 178
1 And then that money was written into a check to 2 be deposited into the trust account in lump sum. And those 3 checks, then, in the trust account were written 4 individually to experts and costs in the case. 5 Q. So let's see if I've got this right, Mr. Dandar. 6 You deposited personal funds belonging to you into a client 7 trust account, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. You commingled your personal funds in an account 10 that is a state bar IOLA client trust account, right? 11 A. False. 12 Q. It's not an IOLA trust account? 13 A. It's not commingling. Commingling is using your 14 client's money as your personal use. 15 Q. In other words, if you deposit your own money into 16 a client trust account, that's not commingling? 17 A. No, because my client -- 18 Q. Do you have an opinion from the Florida Bar on 19 that, Mr. Dandar? 20 A. My client didn't have any money. 21 Q. Sir, do you have an opinion from the Florida 22 Bar -- listen to my question. Yes or no. 23 A. You interrupted my answer. 24 Q. No, sir. You weren't answering. 25 Do you have an opinion from the Florida Bar 179
1 that that is not commingling? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. So you deposit the money. If you didn't do 4 it this way, then the people to whom you issued the checks 5 would have checks that showed Dandar & Dandar account, not 6 the trust account, right? 7 A. It's still Dandar & Dandar, right. 8 Q. Sir, did you ever learn the principle that it's 9 not still Dandar & Dandar. You've got one pocket that's 10 your money and one pocket that's your client's. Did you 11 ever learn that principle? 12 A. Right. All of this was my money. 13 Q. Okay. Let's go on. 14 You told us that in 1997 when you first spoke 15 with Mr. Minton you were very suspicious about this; you 16 didn't know who he was, and you would not take the money 17 until you first called the Florida Bar to see if it was 18 okay and then to talk to your client. 19 And after those two things were done, then you 20 said to Minton, okay, I will take the check. You were 21 careful. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. When Mr. Minton told you, according to you, that 24 as he hands you a check drawn on a numbered Swiss bank 25 account -- on a numbered Swiss bank account -- when he 180
1 supposedly told you that this money was from the fat man 2 and you didn't know who it was, did you call the Florida 3 Bar to ask them if you could take it? Yes or no. 4 A. No. I -- 5 Q. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not this 6 was dirty money? 7 A. Judge, I've got to finish -- 8 Q. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not this 9 was dirty money? This could have been drug money. Did you 10 make any inquiry? 11 A. Not from Mr. Minton. I trusted Mr. Minton. 12 Q. Did you make any inquiry apart from Mr. Minton? 13 A. Not from Mr. Minton. 14 Q. You know, I'm just going to repeat the question 15 until you answer it. 16 A. You interrupted my last one. I'm trying to really 17 cooperate here. 18 Q. Did you make any inquiry to anyone other than 19 Mr. Minton as to whether or not this was dirty money? 20 A. No. And the money didn't come from the fat man. 21 I don't know why you keep saying that. 22 Q. Huh? 23 A. Why do you keep saying the fat man? 24 Q. Isn't that what you said? 25 A. No. That was Mr. Minton's joke. 181
1 Q. That was Mr. Minton's joke? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. Well, see, I'm confused. Who are you telling us 4 Mr. Minton said the money came from? 5 A. He said on the last check. 6 Q. How about the $500,000, the first check? 7 A. He just called it his friends in Europe, anonymous 8 donor, and that was it. And I said that was fine. 9 Q. Anonymous lender, not anonymous donor. 10 A. It's a donor or a lender depending on the outcome 11 of the case. 12 Q. So you didn't care whether or not this anonymous 13 lender was money laundering, drug money. It might have 14 been Al-Queda money for all you care. You took the money. 15 A. Mr. Minton at that point in time had -- in my 16 mind, I respected him and trusted him, and I knew that he 17 was a professional banker. 18 Q. How about answering my question. 19 A. And the answer is no. 20 Q. You didn't care what kind of dirty money it was. 21 You took it. 22 A. Not true. 23 Q. Did you make any inquiry of the bank? 24 A. Of course not. 25 Q. Now, you said Mr. Dandar, last time and today, you 182
1 repeatedly gratuitously offered there's no name on the 2 check, on those Swiss bank checks, right? 3 A. Except my name. 4 Q. But there's an account number; isn't there? 5 A. I hope so. I hope there's something on there, but 6 nothing I could identify. 7 Q. Do you want to look at Exhibit 5 and 6 and see if 8 you see an account number on there? 9 A. Now, where is that going to be found? 10 Q. Five and six. 11 A. There's nothing in order. So tell me what file to 12 look in. Is it something we already covered? 13 Q. Here, I will give you extra copies, 5 and 6. 14 A. I've got it. So why don't you point out to me 15 where the account number is. 16 Q. Do you not see it, Mr. Dandar? 17 A. No, I don't. 18 Q. How about dead center, bottom. 19 A. It doesn't look like -- 20 Q. It starts with 001-1848165, account Zurich. 21 A. It doesn't say that it's an account number. 22 Q. Well, what do you think it is, a telephone number? 23 A. I have no idea. You know what, it could be. 24 Q. It says a-c-c. Have you ever heard of that, a-c-c 25 being an abbreviation for account number? 183
1 A. No. It says a-c-c Zurich. 2 Q. A-c-c, you're not aware of is an abbreviation for 3 account? 4 A. No, I don't use that. I have never seen that 5 before. 6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I'm going to show the 7 witness an exhibit we've marked as Exhibit 60 subject to 8 being authenticated by Mr. Minton. 9 BY MR. ROSEN: 10 Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 60. 11 Sir, Exhibit 60 purports to be, subject to 12 authentication by Mr. Minton, a check he delivered to 13 Courage Production in connection with the production of a 14 film to profit a parody of Scientology. 15 MR. LIROT: Objection, relevance. 16 THE COURT: I will let you complete the 17 question. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Look at the account number, bottom of the middle 20 of the check. 21 A. Yeah, that's a much better copy. What's your 22 question? 23 Q. It's the same exact account number, right -- 24 MR. LIROT: Objection, relevance. 25 BY MR. ROSEN: 184
1 Q. -- as the two Swiss checks you got, right? 2 A. Well, you know, if that's an account number, 3 you're right. If it's not, I have no idea what it is. 4 Q. And you know, because you were involved in it, you 5 actually played a role in this, Courage Production, 6 Mr. Minton put up money to make a film, a parody of 7 Scientology, right? 8 A. Partially, yes. 9 Q. You were part of that process. You played a role 10 in that movie. You were an actor. 11 A. I had a five-second spot, right. 12 Q. There's no question in your mind that this is 13 Mr. Minton's money; is it? 14 A. Sure, there's a question in my mind. 15 Q. Do you think the fat man was bankrolling the 16 production of a movie? 17 A. I think his friends in Europe could very well have 18 sent this money in, just like they sent it to me. 19 Q. They didn't send anything to you; did they? 20 A. Sure they did. 21 Q. I thought you said that they weren't sent to you; 22 Mr. Minton gave it to you, the check? 23 A. Well, if you want to do that, that's fine, right. 24 He hand-delivered it to me and mailed one. 25 Q. Okay. Let's get back to the subject we had 185
1 discussed earlier, and I just want to run through these 2 quickly. 3 There came a point in time when you first 4 articulated to a Court -- whether it be in a brief, an oral 5 argument, an affidavit, somewhere -- that the money 6 Mr. Minton provided to you was a personal loan to you and 7 it's not to the estate. 8 A. That's always been the case. That's true. 9 Q. Sir, when was the first time that you ever said to 10 any judge -- whether in an affidavit, a motion or an oral 11 argument -- that the money from Mr. Minton was a personal 12 loan to me, no strings; I can use it anyway I want? When 13 is the first time you said that to any judge? 14 A. I have no idea, but I'm sure it was Judge Moody in 15 Tampa. 16 Q. Sir, if I tell you that the first time you 17 advanced the story of a personal loan to you was in 2000, 18 do you disagree with that? 19 A. I would think so, yeah. And it's not a story. 20 Q. Huh? 21 A. I would disagree with everything you've just said. 22 Q. Between now and the time that we resume, will you 23 be good enough to look for any statement you've ever made 24 to a judge in either case, before the year 2000 -- whether 25 it be an affidavit, a transcript of the oral argument, a 186
1 brief, anything, any piece of paper, or orally -- which you 2 told the judge the story you're telling us here, that this 3 is a personal loan to you, no strings attached? Would you 4 do me a favor and look for that? 5 A. I will do you no favor. It's not a story. And I 6 don't have time to go look for anything. 7 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 25. This is January 8 4th, 2001. I just want to go over some of these things 9 with you. This is before Judge Quesada. I want to go over 10 some of your filings. 11 Page 76. You told Judge Quesada there that the 12 Plaintiff, your client, had testified and filed an 13 affidavit saying there is no agreement whatsoever with 14 Mr. Minton except to try to reimburse him if sufficient 15 recovery is made in the case. Right? 16 A. That's a true statement. 17 Q. Your client said there was an oral agreement. You 18 told Judge Quesada there was no agreement of any kind 19 whatsoever. 20 A. There was no agreement. 21 Q. "There is no agreement whatsoever." 22 That's what you told Judge Quesada, right? 23 A. Except to try and reimburse him if sufficient 24 recovery in this case. That's the oral part. 25 Q. 729, sir, another proceeding before Judge Quesada. 187
1 A. I'm sorry. 29? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. All right. Just give me a second. 4 Q. Exhibit 29, Page 46. This is April 4, 2001. I'm 5 starting on Line 17. Here's what you told Judge Quesada: 6 "Each of these affidavits state there's 7 absolutely no agreement between her and the Estate and 8 Mr. Minton or the Lisa McPherson Trust or anyone else, 9 absolutely no agreement, where they're going to get a dime 10 out of this litigation, except the agreement to pay back 11 Mr. Minton the money he advanced to help defray costs." 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Well, to help defray costs is not a synonym for no 14 strings; I can use it any way I want, is it? 15 A. It's not a synonym; that's correct. 16 Q. So at least as of this point in time of 2001, you 17 are telling the story that the money that Minton has 18 advanced is to defray costs in the wrongful death case, 19 right? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You didn't say that? 22 A. No, I didn't tell a story, Mr. Rosen. 23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next exhibit, Exhibit 21, 24 October 1, 1999 before Judge Moody. 25 Starting at Line 4, this is you, Mr. Dandar; 188
1 this is what you told Judge Moody: 2 "Mr. Minton already testified to -- and I think 3 it's attached to his deposition, you know -- the family 4 doesn't have to pay me back unless they think they got 5 enough money." 6 "The family doesn't have to pay me back," not 7 Kennan Dandar doesn't have to pay me back. The family. 8 Right? That's what you told Judge Moody? 9 A. That's what I said, a true statement. 10 Q. Well, we do understand one thing, though, that 11 according to your version of this transaction, personal 12 loan to you, no strings, if you get a recovery in a 13 wrongful death, then it's not the Estate who pays 14 Mr. Minton back; it's you, out of your contingent fees, 15 right? 16 A. No. 17 Q. The Estate pays it back? 18 A. No, I pay it back. 19 Q. Out of your contingent fees? 20 A. No. 21 Q. How? 22 A. Out of the recovery, I pay it back. 23 Q. What do you mean out of the recovery? 24 A. Just like any other normal contingency fee 25 contract which you already have in evidence, the attorney 189
1 fees come off of the top and the costs come off the top. 2 Q. Now, which comes off the top first? 3 A. I'm sorry. The attorney fees come off the top and 4 then the costs are subtracted. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. And those costs are Mr. Minton's loans to me. 7 Q. Okay. Let's see if I understand this. I will 8 give you the same hypothetical I gave your client. 9 So there's a 5-million-dollar recovery in the 10 wrongful death case. The first thing that comes off of the 11 top is attorneys fees, 40 percent. In my hypothetical, you 12 get 2 million, right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. You put the whole 2 million in your pocket; it's 15 all yours. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Or your firm's. 18 A. I'm sorry. On attorney's fees? You're right. 19 Q. Yeah. So now the Estate has got 3 million left 20 out of which the Estate then pays back Mr. Minton for the 21 personal loan to you for the costs. 22 A. No. I send a bill to the Estate for the costs, 23 all right? 24 Q. And the Estate -- it's subtracted from the 25 Estate's 3 million? 190
1 A. The Estate pays me back the amount of money for 2 the costs. I turn around and I pay Mr. Minton. 3 Q. Okay. Now I've got it. So let's see. Thank you 4 for clarifying that. I had it wrong. Let's see if I get 5 it right this time. 6 A 5-million-dollar recovery, 40 percent 7 attorney's fees is 2 million off the top, Dandar & Dandar's 8 money, step number one, right? Correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Step number two, you send your client, the Estate, 11 a statement saying, "I laid out a million dollars in 12 expenses." 13 A. Okay, a million dollars. 14 Q. So the Estate says -- and you say to the Estate, 15 out of your 3 million, give me a million bucks. 16 A. Right. 17 Q. The Estate sends you a million dollars for your 18 expenses. You take the million dollars. You send it to 19 Mr. Minton. 20 A. Right. Well, actually, how it works is you take 21 your million dollars of costs that you just got reimbursed 22 from your client under your contract, you turn around and 23 you write a check to Mr. Minton for all of the money he 24 sent to me. 25 Q. So, in other words -- very good, Mr. Dandar. In 191
1 other words, you hit your client for the first million. 2 And then if he gave you 2 million, then you add the 3 client's million dollars to the other million he gave you 4 and you give him back 2 million, right? 5 A. I didn't follow that. Can I put it in simple 6 terms? 7 Q. You return to Mr. Minton 2 million dollars, one 8 million of which in my hypothetical comes from your client, 9 comes from the Estate? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. The other million comes from you. 12 A. That's right. It comes out of my fee. 13 Q. That's how you reimburse Mr. Minton. The Estate 14 had just paid -- assuming that you used your money, the 2 15 million dollars, to buy yourself a house or something, the 16 Estate has just paid for it. 17 A. No. The Estate has paid for the costs of the 18 case, depositions, all of the things that we had to pay 19 for. Do you understand that or not? 20 Q. No. I understand exactly what you're saying, 21 Mr. Dandar. 22 A. And if the amount recovered for costs is less than 23 the amount the Estate is legally obligated to pay, the 24 remaining money comes out of my fee and goes to Mr. Minton. 25 Q. Let's go -- but you don't have any records of 192
1 those monies that the Estate had to pay. 2 A. What do you mean I don't have records of those? 3 Q. Well, sir, didn't you tell me that you throw out 4 your records after three years? 5 A. What records are you talking about? 6 Q. You throw out your bank records after three years, 7 so you don't have any records of any money that you spent 8 for expenses in 1997 to 1998. 9 A. Well, I don't know how you jump to that 10 conclusion. I mean, I have expenses -- 11 Q. Only by virtue of your testimony, sir. 12 A. Well, that's not what I said. 13 Q. Oh, okay. Well, let me go back and ask a 14 question. 15 Do you have records of the expenditures you 16 made on behalf of the Estate in the wrongful death case in 17 the year 1997? 18 A. Of course. 19 Q. You save those records, but you don't have your 20 bank records from 1997? 21 A. On this particular subject matter? 22 Q. Yes or no? You have those records, but you don't 23 have your bank records from 1997; is that right? 24 A. Well, my general bank records, no, I don't. 25 On this particular matter, I should have all of 193
1 the bank records. I know I have all of the expenses. I 2 have a whole big box of expenses, probably five boxes. 3 Q. Let's go to Exhibit 70. We're back at the January 4 13th, 1998 deposition of Mr. Minton that you were at. 5 A. Well, hold on. Is this something we already 6 talked about? 7 Q. 70. 8 A. I'm trying to figure out what pile it's in. Just 9 bear with me here. If it's something we already talked 10 about, then it's over here. 11 Q. Yeah. We already talked about it. 12 A. All right. That's why I needed to know. All 13 right. 14 Q. Got it, Mr. Dandar? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Okay. We're going to go through this quickly. 17 Page 43, Line 12, "Are there any restrictions 18 on how the funds should be used?" 19 This is the question to Mr. Minton of the funds 20 he supplied you. 21 Answer, "Well, they're to be used for the Lisa 22 McPherson Estate." 23 Question, "For example?" 24 "And there were no restrictions put on them by 25 me." 194
1 "Could Mr. Dandar buy a car with them?" 2 "That would hardly facilitate the Lisa 3 McPherson case." 4 "I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a 5 question, and I would ask you to answer. Can these funds 6 be used by Mr. Dandar to buy a car for himself? Yes or 7 no." 8 "No." 9 You sat and listened to your benefactor testify 10 under oath in January of 1998 that there were strings on 11 this money. 12 A. That's true. 13 Q. You never cross-examined him? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You never said, wait a second, that's untrue; 16 that's not our deal. You never said that, right? 17 A. I would never say that in a deposition. 18 Q. And you never sent him a letter saying, by the 19 way -- in words or substance -- by the way, Mr. Minton, 20 your testimony is wrong; there aren't any strings on this 21 money. You never said that, Mr. Dandar? 22 A. Never said that. 23 Q. Did you? 24 A. Never sent him a letter. 25 Q. Okay. Let's continue on. 195
1 The bottom of Page 43, question, "Can these 2 funds be used by Mr. Dandar for personal use of 3 Mr. Dandar?" 4 And then the question is repeated. 5 Answer on Line 9, Page 44, "No, they're not to 6 be used by Mr. Dandar for his personal use. That's nothing 7 to do with it." 8 A. That's a truthful answer by Mr. Minton. 9 Q. But you have a different view. You have a view of 10 no strings; you could use it for personal use. 11 A. It all depends on what year we're talking about. 12 Q. Please. 13 A. And you know that's what Mr. Minton testified to. 14 Q. I move to strike that comment, sir. 15 A. All right. I'm sorry. 16 THE COURT: That's all right. Move on. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. Let's go to Page 110. Same transcript, 19 Mr. Dandar. 20 A. Sorry. What page? 110? 21 Q. Yep. 22 All right. Line 22, "Were the commitments to 23 Mr. Dandar, which is to date $250,000, would that be under 24 the same terms that the hundred thousand was made to 25 Mr. Dandar?" 196
1 Answer, "There have been no discussions about 2 it, but, yes, that's the way I would do it." 3 "It's not your intention to give Mr. Dandar the 4 $250,000 he can use for purposes unrelated to the Lisa 5 McPherson case?" 6 "Absolutely. It would only be used for the 7 Lisa McPherson case, the prosecution of that case." 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Of course. 10 Q. You sat there and heard this, and you're telling 11 us now four years later that that was untrue. 12 A. That statement by Mr. Minton was true at the time 13 he made it. 14 Q. The statement by Mr. Minton was true at the time 15 he made it; there were strings on the money? 16 A. He wanted it to be used for the Lisa McPherson 17 case; that's right. 18 Q. And then there came a point later that he changed 19 it? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Mr. Dandar, you're about to tell us about some 22 agreement with Mr. Minton after January of 1998 in which he 23 changed the deal and said you can spend the money for your 24 personal use? 25 A. No. I don't want to tell you about anything, 197
1 actually. 2 Q. You're going to tell us that, right? 3 A. If the Court orders me to talk, I will answer it. 4 Q. Before the story passes your lips, Mr. Dandar, 5 have you ever told the story you're about to tell us 6 anywhere -- in any court, any affidavit, any motion, any 7 brief, any oral argument, any deposition -- the story 8 you're about to tell us, has it ever passed your lips 9 before right now? 10 A. I haven't told a story ever. 11 Q. Ever. Well, then, Mr. Dandar, I'm all ears. 12 Let's hear it. 13 THE WITNESS: Do we have to hear it, Judge? I 14 mean, he wants to -- I mean, what does this have to do with 15 your case? 16 THE COURT: It has a lot to do with my case. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, after that 18 deposition of Mr. Minton in Boston in January 19 of 1998, Mr. Minton widened the scope of the 20 money that he was loaning to me and left it up 21 to me on how to spend it with no restrictions. 22 BY MR. ROSEN: 23 Q. Right. So it was after he had given you the first 24 $350,000 that he changed the deal and said no strings? 25 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly if it's that point 198
1 in time. Because that point in time would have been that 2 deposition, so, no; it was sometime after that, as 3 testified to in his two other depositions. 4 Q. It was after he gave you the first hundred and the 5 additional 250. 6 A. It was sometime after that. It could have been a 7 year after that. 8 Q. Okay. Wait a minute. He at least gave you -- at 9 the time of this conversation, he had already given you at 10 least 350, a hundred and 250, right? 11 A. That's what his deposition states, yes. 12 Q. And do you deny that? 13 A. No, that's probably true. 14 Q. Okay. So let's see if I've got this right. At 15 some time after this deposition in Boston in January of '98 16 after Mr. Minton had given you at least $350,000, you then 17 had this conversation with him in which he said, "Forget 18 all of that stuff I told you before. No strings. You can 19 use the money for whatever you want." 20 Is that in essence your testimony, Mr. Dandar? 21 A. That's absolutely true. 22 Q. Uh-huh. And tell me something, who are the 23 witnesses to this conversation? 24 A. Me and Mr. Minton. 25 Q. And can you tell us when this occurred? 199
1 A. No. 2 Q. Can you tell us approximately? Was it spring? 3 Were the birds singing? Was the snow falling in New 4 England? Give us a little bit of a help here. 5 A. I can't help you anymore. 6 Q. Can't help us anymore. So let me ask -- I have to 7 ask this for the record. I'm not being facetious. 8 But there's no letter to Mr. Minton confirming 9 this, right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. There's no memo of yours confirming it, right? 12 A. No, just his depositions, actually. 13 Q. There is no -- 14 A. The answer is no. 15 Q. You created no document of any kind to memorialize 16 this dramatic change from strings to no strings. Am I 17 right? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. Okay. So if this change occurred after he had 20 given you the first hundred, right, and after he had given 21 you the 250 -- withdraw that question. 22 Before this conversation, he's right; you had 23 to use the money for the Estate, right? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Then why didn't you deposit the $250,000 into your 200
1 client trust account instead of stealing it? 2 A. Why, thank you, Mr. Rosen. Was that a question? 3 Q. Yeah. I will withdraw that. I will rephrase it. 4 A. I hope so. 5 Q. Why didn't you deposit the $250,000 into your 6 client trust account rather than the Dandar & Dandar 7 account? 8 A. Because at that time I had personally met 9 Mr. Minton, and he gave me the other check, and I put it 10 into an interest-bearing account, and it was my money. 11 Q. Mr. Dandar, according to your testimony, the 12 original deal was the money is the Estate's to be used for 13 the Estate's expenses. 14 You deposit the first hundred thousand into a 15 client trust account, which is consistent with the money 16 belonging to the Estate and to be used for the Estate's 17 expenses, right? 18 A. No. It's consistent with the fact that I didn't 19 know who Mr. Minton was, and I thought I was being set up 20 by Scientology, so I deposited it into my trust account. 21 That's why I did it that way. 22 Q. Sir, if somebody gives you money that is intended 23 as a deposit or to be used for a case for a client, it has 24 to go in the client trust account, right? 25 A. Not on a personal loan. 201
1 Q. Other than a personal loan, if somebody gives you 2 an advanced deposit on expenses, it has to go in a client 3 trust account, right? 4 A. I don't know. I have never had that situation 5 happen. 6 Q. All right. Look, you know, we're not -- 7 A. The client gives me -- 8 Q. We do agree, though, that the second check for 9 $250,000 given to you before this new agreement of no 10 strings, you didn't deposit in your client trust account, 11 right? We agree on that. 12 A. Well, I can't agree with that. Show me the check 13 and I will tell you. Have we gone through that check? 14 Q. No. This is almost facetious. Show you the check 15 and the deposit slip that you won't produce to us because 16 you claim privilege. 17 A. That's not really true, Mr. Rosen. I produced 18 everything up until January of 2000 pursuant to Judge 19 Moody's court orders, so you have either the account copy 20 of the check going into an account or the deposit slip 21 pursuant to Judge Moody's orders, which I complied with. 22 Q. Sir, you have produced no records showing this 23 deposit of several checks over and above the four checks; 24 isn't that right? 25 A. There was no court order to do that; that's right. 202
1 Anything beyond January of 2000 has not been produced. And 2 when the court order came out in September, I believe, of 3 2001 by Judge Beach, we appealed it and we prevailed, and 4 the order was quashed. 5 Q. Sir, you gave us a deposit slip and a check Ken 6 Dandar, May 25, 2001? 7 A. No, I didn't. You obtained that through another 8 means in violation of the stay order. 9 MR. ROSEN: All right. Move to strike it, 10 Your Honor. This witness is just unbearable in 11 terms of his non-responsiveness. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm answering his questions. 13 THE COURT: I don't think we need to have 14 any more of this colloquy, Mr. Rosen. 15 Have you got some more questions? I'm 16 about ready to close it up tonight. 17 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I just have a few more. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Mr. Dandar, do you remember being deposed on 20 January 25, 2001 in this case? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. ROSEN: And, Your Honor, this is Exhibit 23 27. 24 BY MR. ROSEN: 25 Q. Let me read to you a question and answer from Page 203
1 44. 2 A. Do I have this? I would like to have it before 3 you do that. Well, speed it up. Go ahead. 4 Q. Question, "You know that Mr. Minton has already 5 testified at one point as to how much he has paid you and I 6 think you have too. I know at one point it was in excess 7 of a million dollars." 8 Answer, "Mr. Minton testified a million and 9 50,000. This is as of January of 2001." 10 Question, "That was the given point in time, 11 right?" 12 Answer, "Whenever his last deposition was, 13 which you can go get since your client took it." 14 Question, "Was that number accurate?" 15 Answer, "Yeah." 16 Question, "This is for defraying costs in the 17 wrongful death case?" 18 Answer, "Yes." 19 Did you give those answers? 20 A. Sure. 21 Q. Were they true? 22 A. Absolutely. 23 Q. $1,050,000 was for, quote, defraying costs from 24 the wrongful death case. 25 A. Defraying, yes. 204
1 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Exhibit 70 to the last 2 part -- skip that. 3 Mr. Minton -- excuse me -- Mr. Dandar, is it 4 correct -- 5 A. What page? 6 Q. Mr. Dandar, is it correct that starting in 1998 7 you made a series of real-estate acquisitions, the year 8 after you first got the Minton money you made a series of 9 real-estate acquisitions? 10 A. No, not that I remember. 11 Q. You don't remember? You don't remember buying two 12 commercial lots in downtown Tampa? 13 A. I never bought commercial lots in downtown Tampa. 14 Q. Did you buy any real estate in Tampa? 15 A. I purchased -- I owned real estate in Tampa before 16 that. 17 Q. When did you buy it? 18 A. I have no idea. I mean, my secretary probably 19 knows better than I do. I've owned an office building in 20 the West Shore business district in Tampa for six to eight 21 years, well before this case ever came around. 22 Q. Sir, I'm not interested in that. Answer my 23 question. Did you buy any real estate in Tampa after you 24 started getting Minton money? Yes or no. 25 A. I believe I did. I can't remember, though. 205
1 Q. Where did you buy it? What did you buy? A 2 warehouse? 3 A. I never bought a warehouse. 4 Q. What did you buy, Mr. Dandar? 5 A. I'm not sure that I'm the one that bought it, 6 though. It's a family thing. We bought two lots across 7 the street from our office building -- three lots, 8 actually. 9 Q. In what year, Mr. Dandar? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. After you started getting the Minton money? 12 A. Well, all kinds of things happened. 13 Q. After you started getting the Minton money? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. You also bought a house in North Carolina? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You didn't? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You bought a house for your mother? 20 A. No. 21 Q. In Odessa? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Those were not your transactions? 24 A. Absolutely not. 25 Q. Did you put up any money for any of those 206
1 acquisitions? 2 A. No. It's my parents' monies. It's their home. 3 Q. You bought a house for yourself? 4 A. Of course I own a house. I have always owned a 5 house. Well, not always. 6 Q. After 1998? 7 A. After I sold -- I owned a house before 1998, and I 8 sold it and I bought another house on the same street, I 9 believe, in 1999 with no money except my money. 10 Q. Would you look at Exhibit 44. 11 A. Is this a new one or is this an old one? 12 Q. It's not one you've seen before, sir. 13 A. Is it 44A? 14 Q. 44. 15 A. No, I got it. 16 Q. This is a deed dated the 15th of July 1999 to Ann 17 L. Dandar, trustee. Who is Ann L. Dandar? 18 A. That's my mother. 19 Q. Did you supply any funds for the purchase of this 20 property? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Could you identify what this property is, sir? 23 A. It's my parents' home in North Carolina, I 24 believe. Let me take a look. Is this North Carolina? I 25 can't see it right now. I have got to look at the legal 207
1 description. 2 Paradise subdivision. No. That's Hillsborough 3 County. That's their home they used to own. 4 Q. This is their home in Hillsborough County? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. Your mother is a trustee of what? 7 A. A family trust. 8 Q. And you didn't supply any money for this, right? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Okay. And you would have records, then. You were 11 counsel on the transaction. You did the deal for your 12 mother? 13 A. I'm not sure. Probably me or my brother. It's 14 not important. It certainly didn't involve Minton money, 15 if that's where you're going. 16 Q. All right. Let's turn to Exhibit 45. This is a 17 warranty deed dated July 29th, 1999 to you and your wife. 18 What's this for, sir? 19 A. Well, this is the home I live in now, my money. 20 Q. Okay. Say again? 21 A. It's all my money, plus the mortgage from the 22 bank. 23 Q. And it was bought in July of '99? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 46, sir, July 1 of 2000 208
1 deed. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. July 1, 2000, this is what, sir, a house in 4 Odessa, Florida? 5 A. That's the same house, my parents' house. 6 Q. I thought your parents' house was in Hillsborough. 7 A. Well, you don't know the area quite well. 8 Q. This is the same one as we went over before? We 9 have two copies of the same deed -- 10 A. No, this is different. 11 Q. -- is that what you're telling us? 12 A. No, I'm not telling you that at all. The second 13 page is the deed going from the Millers to my mother and my 14 sister. The second one is a quitclaim deed going from my 15 mother and sister to my other sister and her husband where 16 they continue to reside. 17 Q. And none of your money is involved in this 18 transaction, right? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. My sister purchased that from my mother and my 22 other sister. 23 MR. ROSEN: Give me one second, Your Honor. I 24 think I'm nearing the end. 25 Okay. No further questions, Your Honor. 209
1 And I would again move in the exhibits that 2 were identified by the examination in particular with 3 respect to depositions and pages themselves. And nothing 4 further. 5 THE COURT: Any objection? 6 MR. LIROT: No objection, Judge. 7 THE COURT: All right. They will be 8 received. 9 Okay. I think we're going to wind it up. 10 MR. LIROT: Before we go, my concern is 11 with scheduling I have obligations, and I'm 12 before judges in Hillsborough County tomorrow 13 morning and tomorrow afternoon. 14 And for a hearing that was originally set 15 for an hour, I would like to at least represent 16 for the record I will make myself available 17 whenever possible, but I would like to be able 18 to work with my colleagues to try to do this in 19 a different way than has been the case where we 20 don't have to have these emergency hearings. 21 I would like to get some alternative dates 22 to make sure everybody gets -- in fact, I will 23 even do a chart with whatever dates I get from 24 your office. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to let you work that 210
1 out, Mr. Lirot, okay? And you know my schedule 2 and when I'm going to be available. And if you 3 don't, you can find out from Claudia, and we 4 will just do it whenever we can do it. 5 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I think Mr. Pope 6 has already obtained the schedule and you're 7 available tomorrow. 8 THE COURT: Yeah, I am. 9 MR. POPE: From 2:30 to five you're open 10 on your schedule tomorrow. 11 THE COURT: Tomorrow afternoon, I am. 12 MR. ROSEN: Can we resume it tomorrow at 13 2:30? 14 By the way, I think our intention is to 15 rest. So as long -- if Mr. Lirot can tell us 16 what his approximation is as to how long his 17 case is going to be, I think we're done. 18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we should argue 19 the legal merits. I would like to for a -- 20 THE COURT: We're not going to argue those 21 tonight, though. 22 MR. LIROT: I know that. 23 MR. ROSEN: Can we resume at 2:30 24 tomorrow? 25 MR. LIROT: I can't say I will be 211
1 available at 2:30, and I have an out-of-town 2 client coming in late tomorrow afternoon. 3 These are long-term obligations. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I'm just asking. 5 MR. LIROT: I don't mean to seem panicked. 6 THE COURT: I don't perceive it as that, 7 but you need to coordinate and they need to 8 coordinate with you. 9 MR. ROSEN: If we can get an estimate of 10 how long Counsel's evidentiary presentation is, 11 we'll try to work it out with Mr. Lirot. 12 (Thereupon, the hearing was concluded.) 212
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Susan M. Valsecchi, Registered Professional 7 Reporter, in and for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of 8 Florida: 9 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was authorized to and 10 did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and 11 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my 12 stenographic notes. 13 DATED this day of , 2002, at 14 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida. 15 16 17 18 Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR 19 Registered Professional Reporter

To Life and Death of Lisa McPherson