1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.,
Plaintiff
vs. CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20
DELL LIEBREICH, individually and
as Personal Representative of
the Estate of Lisa McPherson,
ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON
TRUST,
Defendants.
/
BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird
Circuit Judge
PLACE: 315 Court Street
Clearwater, Florida
DATE: April 30, 2002
TIME: 11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m.
REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
Registered Professional Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit
-----------------------------------------
HEARING
(VOLUME 1 OF APRIL 30, 2002 HEARING)
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Pages 1 - 116
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
(727) 443-0992
2
1 APPEARANCES
2
3 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE
4 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS
Post Office Box 1368
5 Clearwater, Florida 33757
(727) 461-1818
6
Attorneys for Plaintiff
7
8
LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE
9 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A.
112 East Street, Suite B
10 Tampa, Florida 33602
11 Attorney for the Defendants
12
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25
3
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 THE COURT: All right. This is the
4 continuation of the hearing that was a week ago
5 Friday. And has the plaintiff completed its
6 case?
7 MR. ROSEN: No, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: You still have some witnesses,
9 right?
10 MR. ROSEN: Yes, Your Honor.
11 Your Honor, may I also start by noting
12 that because we finished at a very late hour, I
13 neglected to, after my examination of
14 Mr. Dandar, to move -- formally move -- into
15 evidence the documents that were identified by
16 Mr. Dandar and by Mr. Minton earlier last time
17 through their examination.
18 And I would therefore hereby move to
19 receipt into evidence of Exhibits 5, 6, 8, 9,
20 11, 12, 13, 18, 19, 20, 21, 24, 26, 33, 41, 42,
21 43, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, those portions of
22 Exhibit 17 which is a deposition transcript
23 that were read out in this courtroom in the
24 hearing and those portions of Exhibit 27,
25 deposition transcript, that were read out in
4
1 this courtroom.
2 I move the admission of those documents.
3 MR. LIROT: Judge, with the exception of
4 Exhibit 42 which was the affidavit of
5 Mr. Minton, we have no objection.
6 MR. ROSEN: I don't offer the exhibit for
7 the truth of the matter set forth in the
8 affidavit.
9 THE COURT: Then why are they relevant?
10 MR. ROSEN: This is affidavit that
11 Mr. Minton testified Mr. Dandar had him sign
12 which was untrue that denied that there was an
13 agreement to donate the funds, the bulk of the
14 proceeds in the wrongful death case.
15 Exhibit 42 was the affidavit in which
16 Mr. Minton testified to Mr. Dandar asked him to
17 sign that was false. So I don't offer it for
18 the truth of the statement in the affidavit.
19 THE COURT: Just for the fact that it was
20 executed.
21 MR. ROSEN: That's correct.
22 THE COURT: What's the basis for your
23 objection?
24 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, first of all, the
25 affidavit is not one that emanated from this
5
1 case.
2 Second of all, I think it was attempted to
3 be authenticated through Mr. Minton, but we
4 clearly showed that it was not what it was
5 purported to be.
6 It was not in any way produced by
7 Mr. Dandar's office, and I think that that's
8 unequivocal.
9 So I think rather than being asserted for
10 the truth of the matters within the affidavit,
11 it's being asserted from the back door for an
12 attestation of what's in the affidavit not
13 being true, and I think the same rule of
14 evidence would apply. We just don't think that
15 it's something that should go in based on those
16 objections.
17 THE COURT: I will accept it into evidence
18 and give it the weight that I think it deserves
19 based on the testimony and circumstances.
20 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, our next witness
21 is Dell Liebreich.
22 THE COURT: Before we get too far into
23 this, would counsel approach briefly, please.
24 (Thereupon, a bench conference was held
25 off the record.)
6
1 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I would like to
2 call Dell Liebreich.
3 THE BAILIFF: Right this way, ma'am.
4 Stand right here and face the judge. Raise
5 your right hand and be sworn in, please.
6 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to the
7 witness.)
8 MR. ROSEN: May I approach her?
9 Your Honor, I've handed -- let the record
10 reflect I've handed you and the witness a
11 series of folders with exhibits.
12 Some of them are additional copies of
13 exhibits that were previously submitted last
14 time; and just so that Your Honor doesn't have
15 to plow through the old file, you've got
16 additional copies. That's the reason for the
17 redundancy.
18
19 THEREUPON,
20 DELL LIEBREICH, called as a witness, having
21 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. ROSEN:
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, can you leave those closed in front
25 of you until I ask you to open them?
7
1 A. Oh, sure.
2 Q. Thank you, ma'am.
3 Ms. Liebreich, you are the personal
4 representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. You know that -- you were in court for the hearing
7 on the 19th of April; were you not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. For that entire hearing?
10 A. Well, except for maybe a few minutes to go out.
11 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
12 A. Except for maybe a few minutes to the restroom.
13 Q. Okay. You are aware, ma'am, that one of the
14 issues in this case is whether the money that was provided
15 by Mr. Minton, including the money from the Swiss banks,
16 whether that was provided to the Estate for the Estate's
17 benefit or whether it was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar.
18 You're aware that that's an issue in this case?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you have any knowledge on that subject?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And would you tell us what your knowledge is,
23 ma'am.
24 A. It's a personal loan to Mr. Dandar.
25 Q. And that knowledge is derived from a conversation
8
1 that you had with Mr. Dandar?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. How long ago was that?
4 A. Well, from the beginning.
5 Q. When was the beginning? What year?
6 A. '97. '97, I believe it was.
7 Q. Say again?
8 A. I believe it was 1997.
9 Q. Okay. So let me see If I understand this. From
10 the very beginning, Mr. Dandar told you that this 2 million
11 dollars -- that the money, as the money came in
12 from Mr. Minton, was not for the Estate but was a personal
13 loan to Mr. Dandar, right? He told you that.
14 A. It was a personal loan to be used to pay bills for
15 the Estate, is what I understood.
16 Q. To pay what bills?
17 A. For the Estate or whatever.
18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object to any
19 attorney/client communication subject to this
20 question.
21 MR. ROSEN: She's already testified to
22 this fifteen times.
23 THE COURT: So you're claiming a waiver?
24 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
25 MR. LIROT: Judge, she hasn't testified to
9
1 this. She hasn't waived the privilege.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified to the purpose
4 that these loans were loans to Mr. Dandar, personal loans?
5 Have you testified to that in this case?
6 A. I don't remember whether I have or not.
7 Q. Do you remember testifying April 20th of 2002 in a
8 deposition that these loans were loans -- that the monies
9 from Mr. Minton were personal loans to Mr. Dandar?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. I think she
11 needs to be shown the deposition.
12 MR. ROSEN: Do you remember testifying to
13 that?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. If you show
15 it to me --
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. It's ten days ago, ma'am. Are you saying you
18 don't remember your testimony to this effect ten days ago?
19 A. What was your question again?
20 Q. Do you remember testifying at deposition ten days
21 ago -- Saturday, April 20th -- that the monies from
22 Mr. Minton were a loan to Mr. Dandar, a personal loan to
23 Mr. Dandar? Do you remember that?
24 A. I probably did.
25 Q. Was it probably true or probably not true?
10
1 A. It's probably true.
2 Q. Uh-huh. So let's see If I understand this.
3 From the very beginning in October of
4 '97 -- sometime in '97 -- Mr. Dandar has told you from time
5 to time when he receives money, right?
6 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. That's
7 privileged.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 MR. LIROT: It mischaracterizes the
10 evidence as well.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Now, is it your understanding -- your
13 understanding that this was a personal -- that these were
14 personal loans to Mr. Dandar, is that understanding based
15 on anything other than what Mr. Dandar told you?
16 A. Was it based on anything else?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. Well, that's the way I understood it.
19 Q. Well, let me rephrase the question, perhaps. Did
20 anybody else ever tell you that these loans -- these monies
21 from Mr. Minton were loans to Mr. Dandar personally?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you recall having conversations with Mr. Minton
24 on the subject?
25 A. I don't recall having any conversations with
11
1 Mr. Minton about the loan.
2 Q. Do you recall thanking Mr. Minton for his donation
3 to, quote, the Estate?
4 A. I thanked him many times for the money that he put
5 up.
6 Q. Do you recall thanking him for the Estate for the
7 money that he has donated to the Estate? Do you recall
8 that, ma'am?
9 A. I might have said that. I don't recall.
10 Q. Well, might it have been true when you said it?
11 A. Well, I thanked him for his donations. As far as
12 I'm concerned, it was a loan to Dan, but...
13 Q. Okay. You understand that a second issue in this
14 case is whether or not Mr. Dandar is free to use this money
15 for his own -- any purpose he wants, including buying
16 himself a car, or whether he has to use this money from
17 Mr. Minton only for the expenses of the Estate in the
18 wrongful death case? You understand that's an issue in
19 this case?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you have any knowledge on this subject?
22 A. He can use it any way he wants to, is what my
23 understanding is.
24 Q. Okay. And is your understanding based on anything
25 other than your conversations with Mr. Dandar?
12
1 A. I believe I've heard Mr. Minton state that he
2 could spend it for whatever he wanted to.
3 Q. When did you hear Mr. Minton say that?
4 A. I don't recall.
5 Q. Well, can you recall what year it was?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Well, ma'am, help us out. Sometime between 1997
8 and April 30th, 2002? Do you think you could help us out
9 and try to remember?
10 A. He probably said it more than once. I don't
11 recall.
12 Q. Can you remember any occasion on which you heard
13 him say that?
14 A. No, no, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Liebreich, let's see If I've got
16 an understanding of your testimony.
17 As far as you know, based on your conversations
18 with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar could use that two million
19 dollars any way he wanted to use it. He could buy a car
20 with it. He could buy a house with it, buy his wife an
21 anniversary present, right? Any way he wanted to, right?
22 MR. LIROT: Objection. These are statements
23 from Mr. Dandar to the client.
24 MR. ROSEN: No. I'm asking about her
25 understanding.
13
1 MR. LIROT: Same thing, Judge. It's
2 privileged.
3 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe so.
4 THE COURT: I think she's waived that.
5 MR. ROSEN: Yeah.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Is that your understanding?
8 A. He could spend it any way he wanted to.
9 Q. And he wasn't required to spend one nickel on
10 behalf of the Estate, right? Look at me, ma'am, not
11 Mr. Dandar.
12 A. Do I have to look at you?
13 Q. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't you look over
14 that way instead of looking at Mr. Dandar.
15 Did you hear my question, Ms. Liebreich?
16 A. What is your question?
17 Q. He wasn't required to spend any part of it for the
18 Estate, was he? Is that your understanding?
19 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
20 Q. Okay. Now, what is your understanding, ma'am, on
21 the subject of who was to repay this loan? And let me be
22 more specific.
23 Assuming that there was a recovery in the
24 wrongful death case, either by verdict or settlement, was
25 Mr. Minton's monies supposed to be repaid to him?
14
1 MR. LIROT: Objection. Lack of foundation,
2 speculation.
3 BY MR. ROSEN:
4 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject?
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject of
8 whether there was an agreement or understanding to repay
9 Mr. Minton the money he advanced out of any settlement or
10 judgment?
11 A. Mr. Minton said that if there was money left over,
12 if we had more than we wanted, that he felt like he should
13 be repaid.
14 Q. And who was supposed to repay him?
15 A. Well, Ken would repay him.
16 Q. You're sure the Estate wasn't going to repay him
17 the money?
18 A. I don't know that much about the law. I don't
19 know.
20 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified under oath that
21 it was the Estate's obligation to repay the loan from
22 Mr. Minton?
23 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge.
24 MR. ROSEN: Have you or have you not?
25 THE COURT: Just a moment. State your
15
1 objection.
2 MR. LIROT: The objection is if he's
3 asking about testimony under oath, he has to
4 identify the date, time and place of such
5 testimony.
6 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe I have to do
7 that until I impeach her, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Well, that's the beginning of
9 the process.
10 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will come back to it.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. You heard testimony last time you were in court
13 about these two Swiss bank checks, one for $500,000 in May
14 of 2000 and another one for $250,000 in March of this year?
15 You heard that testimony?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever give you an accounting of the
18 monies that he had received from Mr. Minton and from these
19 two bank checks?
20 A. It wasn't necessary.
21 Q. Is the answer, no, he never gave you an
22 accounting? Is that the answer, Ms. Liebreich?
23 A. That's what I'm saying.
24 Q. Is it correct, Ms. Liebreich, that Mr. Dandar
25 never told you how much money he had received?
16
1 A. He has told me how much money he received.
2 Q. When did he tell you that?
3 A. Every time he received money, he told me.
4 Q. So that when he received the two Swiss bank
5 checks, he told you at the time he received them?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, do you recall being deposed
8 one day after the last hearing before Judge Baird,
9 Saturday, the 20th of April of this year; do you recall
10 being deposed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I've put in front of you Exhibit 61 which is the
13 transcript of your deposition of that date. I'll read from
14 Page 311.
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, objection. She's not yet
16 had a chance to review it. We did not waive
17 the signing of this deposition. She's been out
18 of town. She hasn't had a chance to review
19 this deposition, nor has she signed it at this
20 point in time. There's been no errata sheet,
21 so it's premature...
22 THE COURT: Well, I think he can show it
23 to her and she can determine whether or not
24 those were the questions and those were, you
25 know, her answers.
17
1 And if she has some objection or some
2 dispute as to whether or not the court reporter
3 accurately, you know, transcribed her
4 responses, then we can deal with that.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. I direct your attention to Page 311 starting with
7 the question on Line 7:
8 Question, "When did you last receive an
9 accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of the
10 Estate?"
11 Answer appears on Line 19, "It's been in the
12 last few days, last week or so."
13 "Well, you don't mean sitting in court
14 yesterday when you heard about the two million dollars from
15 Mr. Minton. Is that what you're referring to?"
16 Answer, "Yes."
17 Did you give those answers to those questions,
18 ma'am?
19 A. That's when I understood how much he had paid? I
20 knew before that.
21 Q. Did you give these answers, ma'am, to these
22 questions?
23 A. I haven't had a chance to look over this and
24 correct it yet.
25 Q. Take a chance right now, ma'am. Read the question
18
1 and answer on Page 311.
2 A. Ken tells me every time he gets money.
3 Q. Ma'am, let me focus you specifically on the
4 question and answer, Lines 21 to 25, Page 311. Do you
5 remember being asked that question and giving that answer,
6 ten days ago?
7 A. I remember giving the answer, yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, was the answer true at the time you
9 gave it?
10 A. Well, I heard it then, but he also tells me every
11 time he gets money.
12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, listen to my question, please.
13 We'll get done a whole lot faster.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd object. We're
15 approaching the badgering limit here.
16 THE COURT: I don't think so.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this will go a lot faster if you'd
19 try to please listen to my questions. They're very
20 specific. And try to answer what I ask you.
21 Do you remember giving that answer to that
22 question?
23 A. I see that I gave it. I guess I did.
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, was the answer true when you gave
25 it?
19
1 A. I probably thought it was, but I can see that...
2 Q. Ms. Liebreich, is the answer true today? Yes or
3 no, ma'am.
4 A. Well, I heard about it then, but I also heard
5 about it before that, so it's true there the way I read it.
6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, when was the first time you were
7 told that there was a Mr. Minton who had contributed money
8 for the Estate's wrongful death case? When did you first
9 learn of that?
10 A. Back in 1997. I don't remember the date.
11 Q. 1997?
12 A. I believe that's when.
13 Q. And was the source of that information Mr. Dandar,
14 your attorney?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. How did he tell you this?
17 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
18 MR. ROSEN: Excuse me, waived. Counsel
19 put it in a letter. He said, "I consulted my
20 client," in the letter to Mr. Minton, October
21 of '97.
22 "I've consulted my client, and she's
23 agreed to accept your donation."
24 He waived the privilege in the letter.
25 MR. LIROT: The letter speaks for itself.
20
1 Anything beyond that hasn't been waived.
2 THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection.
3 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
4 MR. ROSEN: Can I ask you to read that
5 back, please?
6 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "And was
7 the source of that information Mr. Dandar, your
8 attorney?"
9 Answer, "Right."
10 Question, "How did he tell you this?"
11 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me over the
12 phone and he sent me a letter.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Do you have a copy of that letter that he sent
15 you?
16 A. I gave it to Ken. Ken has it.
17 Q. Ken has it.
18 Ma'am, I'm going to try real hard to make my
19 questions real simple. Do you have a copy of the letter
20 that Ken sent you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can I see it?
23 A. Not with me, I don't have.
24 Q. Where is it?
25 A. I don't know if I have it in my purse or not.
21
1 Q. Do you have your purse?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. May I hand you your purse?
4 A. No, thank you.
5 Q. Do you want your attorney to hand you your purse?
6 MR. LIROT: Judge, if Counsel could identify
7 what letter he's referring to, we'll locate it.
8 MR. ROSEN: The witness's letter from her
9 attorney to her advising her of Mr. Minton's
10 gift or donation, whatever you want to call it.
11 MR. LIROT: Is this the letter that was
12 marked as an exhibit and entered into evidence
13 today?
14 MR. ROSEN: I don't know. The witness is
15 testifying to a letter she received from
16 Mr. Dandar, Counsel. How would I know that?
17 How would I know?
18 MR. LIROT: Because you said it was the
19 letter that waived the privilege.
20 MR. ROSEN: No, she said that.
21 THE COURT: No, she said that. And I
22 think the point he's trying to make is he
23 doesn't know if this is a letter that was part
24 of the evidence or not. It may be another
25 letter.
22
1 MR. LIROT: We'll verify that, Judge.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, are you sure that in your
4 testimony that you learned about Mr. Minton and his
5 contribution of money in 1997 rather than 1998; are you
6 sure about that as you sit here today?
7 A. I knew about it before he sent the first check.
8 Q. The first check you know was sent in October of
9 '97.
10 A. Okay. I knew about it before he got the check.
11 Q. So, in other words, Ms. Liebreich, you have a very
12 firm recollection as you're sitting here today that you
13 knew about Mr. Minton making this contribution of money
14 before he made the first -- sent the first check in October
15 of '97. You're confident about that?
16 A. Yes, because Ken called me and he said --
17 Q. Fine, if the answer is, yes, are you certain about
18 it. Let's turn to Exhibit 17.
19 A. What page?
20 Q. Exhibit 17 is the next folder in front of you,
21 Ms. Liebreich.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. This is portions of the deposition of Dell
24 Liebreich taken May 24th, 1999. I ask you to turn,
25 ma'am --
23
1 A. To what?
2 Q. -- to Page 164. And I will read to you starting
3 on Line 12.
4 Do you remember -- my question will be if you
5 remember being asked these questions and giving these
6 answers.
7 Question, "How did you first learn that
8 Mr. Minton was going to, I believe your words were, give
9 money or help finance the lawsuit?"
10 Answer, "Ken told me, I believe."
11 Question, "When was that approximately?"
12 Answer, "I can't remember the dates. It was
13 probably -- it was before we went down there in December of
14 '98, but I don't remember. It could have been November or
15 October. I don't remember."
16 Let me stop there. Do you remember being asked
17 those questions and giving those answers?
18 A. Right. I did not --
19 Q. So at that time, your recollection was it was just
20 before you came to Clearwater in December of '98, either a
21 month before or two months before, October or November,
22 right?
23 A. I was mistaken.
24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you got a copy of this transcript
25 after it was prepared?
24
1 A. I'm sure I did.
2 Q. And it is your practice to read your deposition
3 transcripts and to make corrections if you've made
4 mistakes, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You didn't make any corrections to this; did you,
7 ma'am?
8 A. I don't recall.
9 Q. Huh?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Your Honor. The
11 transcript speaks for itself. It says, "I
12 don't remember."
13 Rule of completeness.
14 MR. ROSEN: I read the, "I don't
15 remember."
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Did you make any changes?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 Q. Oh, you don't remember if you made any changes.
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this deposition is three years ago.
22 Would you agree with me that your sworn testimony given
23 three years ago, your recollection might perhaps have been
24 better then than it is today?
25 A. It depends on what it was. I don't know.
25
1 Q. Listen to my question, ma'am: Would you agree
2 with me that your recollection of the events when you
3 testified three years ago would be perhaps better than your
4 recollection is today?
5 A. Not necessarily.
6 Q. So your testimony now is that Mr. Dandar told you
7 about this in October of '97 before the first check?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you have been deposed in this case
10 and in the wrongful death case several times, right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Do you agree with me that there is not one single
13 page, not one word of any deposition, in which you have
14 testified that you were told about Mr. Minton and his
15 contribution in October of '97?
16 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. Do you agree with me?
19 A. No.
20 MR. LIROT: Objection, date, time and place of
21 any such deposition. And I would also assert
22 the best evidence rule. I think the
23 correspondence Counsel refers to would be the
24 best evidence of whether any communications
25 took place.
26
1 MR. ROSEN: I didn't ask her about
2 correspondence, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: I understand. The objection
4 is overruled.
5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again?
6 MR. ROSEN: Could I ask you to read back?
7 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Do you
8 agree with me that there is not one single
9 page, not one word of any deposition, in which
10 you have testified that you were told about
11 Mr. Minton and his contribution in October of
12 '97?"
13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
14 BY MR. ROSEN:
15 Q. Okay. Let's continue on on Page 164 of your
16 deposition transcript of May of 1999 starting with Line 22.
17 Do you remember being asked these questions and
18 giving these answers:
19 "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton
20 has given to you and your family with regard to financing
21 the lawsuit?"
22 Answer, "I think I saw on the internet a
23 couple -- a couple of hundred thousand or something like
24 that. I'm not sure."
25 Do you remember giving that answer?
27
1 A. I probably did, if it's here.
2 Q. Was it true at the time?
3 A. I didn't remember, probably.
4 Q. Do you think it's true now, Ms. Liebreich, this
5 answer?
6 A. No.
7 Q. It's not? It's a lie? Ma'am? This answer is
8 untrue?
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object. This
10 is calling for the witness to make some kind of
11 a legal conclusion as to the designation of
12 these funds.
13 And I think that Counsel is taking
14 advantage of a layperson's confusion over
15 certain issues about monies to make a big deal
16 out of something that quite candidly, Judge, I
17 don't think there's any semblance of any
18 misrepresentation or anything that's untrue.
19 I think if you look at the deposition, she
20 says, "I can't remember; I'm not sure," and
21 Counsel keeps trying to make her look like
22 she's been untruthful about this testimony, and
23 I think that clearly crosses the line of
24 badgering this witness.
25 THE COURT: I don't think so. Overruled.
28
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am.
3 A. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Well, I want you to follow this for a moment. If
5 what you're telling us today, that Mr. Dandar told you
6 regularly as he received money from Mr. Minton, why would
7 it be necessary for you to find out about that on the
8 internet?
9 A. It wasn't necessary. I just happened to read it.
10 And he had already told me. I didn't keep up with it.
11 Q. Uh-huh.
12 You didn't say, "Mr. Dandar had told me how
13 much."
14 You said, "I think I saw it on the internet,"
15 right?
16 A. He always told me.
17 Q. That's what you said in your deposition, right?
18 A. That's what I said there, yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you will notice in the question the
20 question asks, "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton
21 has given to you and your family to finance the lawsuit?"
22 You didn't say, wait a minute, he hasn't given
23 me anything. All he did was loan money to Mr. Dandar as a
24 personal loan. You didn't say that; did you?
25 A. I didn't think it was necessary.
29
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, at the time you gave this answer,
2 did you have in mind and had you been told by your Counsel
3 that the money was a personal loan to him, to Mr. Dandar?
4 A. I'm sure it was, yes.
5 Q. So that the correct answer as of May of '99 when
6 you were deposed would have been Mr. Minton hasn't given,
7 quote, you and your family -- he hasn't given you zero, not
8 one cent, right?
9 A. It was given to Mr. Dandar to use as he saw fit.
10 Q. And Mr. Dandar was present during this deposition
11 defending you, right?
12 A. I'm sure he was.
13 Q. Yeah, okay. Let's go back to one other thing in
14 this deposition and we'll move on.
15 Let's look at -- I will come back to that
16 exhibit.
17 Let's move on to the next one.
18 There's a folder in front of you that says
19 Exhibit 33.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Would you open that one, please?
22 A. It's open.
23 Q. This is an affidavit of yours. Do you recognize
24 this?
25 A. Yes.
30
1 Q. And you signed this affidavit in December of 2000,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I want to direct your attention to Paragraph 2.
5 The first part denies that there was ever any binding
6 agreement. And then it says -- well, I will read the whole
7 thing so I don't take it out of context -- that affiant has
8 never entered into a binding agreement with Robert Minton
9 nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to any
10 disposition of any funds obtained by the Estate of Lisa
11 McPherson in the wrongful death action pending against the
12 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs advanced by
13 Robert Minton to defray costs in litigation.
14 Was that affidavit true at the time you signed
15 it, ma'am?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So what you're saying in that affidavit is that
18 Robert Minton advanced monies for the Estate's expenses in
19 litigation.
20 MR. LIROT: Objection, mischaracterizes the
21 evidence.
22 MR. ROSEN: Isn't that what you were
23 saying?
24 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document
25 speaks for itself.
31
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Is that what you meant to say?
4 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document speaks for
5 itself.
6 THE COURT: The objection was sustained.
7 BY MR. ROSEN:
8 Q. Okay. In truth, according to your testimony
9 today, Ms. Liebreich, Robert Minton has not advanced one
10 dime to, quote, defray costs in litigation; is that right?
11 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Is that right, ma'am?
15 A. He has not or has?
16 Q. He has not advanced not one dime to, quote, defray
17 the costs of litigation, closed quote.
18 A. Well, he has.
19 Q. He has? Can you show me where he has given you
20 money to defray the costs of litigation?
21 A. It's through Ken. He gave money to Ken. He
22 loaned money to Ken.
23 Q. He gave money to Ken that Ken had no obligation to
24 use to defray the costs of litigation, right? That's your
25 testimony.
32
1 A. I don't understand the law.
2 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit 53, ma'am, that's
3 in front of you? This is a deposition of you taken May
4 24th, 1999. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Turn to Page 209, please, ma'am, starting on Line
7 6.
8 Question, "As to what is left over after
9 Mr. Dandar is paid and the expenses are paid, what have you
10 discussed would represent the bulk of that as going to a
11 cult awareness group, what percentage of what is left
12 over?"
13 Answer, "We didn't set a figure. We have no
14 set percentage or anything.
15 MR. LIROT: Objection, lack of foundation.
16 THE COURT: Lack of foundation? Foundation for
17 what?
18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what they're
19 talking about, expenses are paid, bulk of what,
20 what percent of what is left over. Left over
21 from what? There's been no foundation talking
22 about what global thing we're talking about
23 here and what's left over.
24 MR. ROSEN: I will withdraw the question
25 and come back to it. I will put in a
33
1 foundation so Counsel will be satisfied.
2 BY MR. ROSEN:
3 Q. Let's turn to Page 252 for a moment.
4 So here again, Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to ask
5 you whether you remember being asked these questions and
6 giving these answers under oath, Line 14:
7 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is
8 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding
9 the litigation?"
10 Answer, "Right."
11 Did you give that answer in 1999, ma'am?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Was it true at the time?
14 A. Well, that's kind of the understanding, but it's
15 nothing...
16 Q. No. Did you believe that your answer was true at
17 the time that you gave it?
18 A. Unless I changed it, I did.
19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On May 24th, 1999 you believed that that answer
22 was true, right?
23 A. Apparently that's what I thought at the time.
24 Q. And you never signed any errata sheet and you
25 never changed that answer, right?
34
1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. So tell me, Ms. Liebreich, what has happened
3 between May 24th, 1999 and today which has caused you to
4 change your understanding of the money from Mr. Minton?
5 What's happened?
6 A. Well, I have gone back and read some things that I
7 didn't remember.
8 Q. Tell me what you read.
9 A. That letter that Ken sent to me.
10 Q. The one that we have to have produced, yeah. What
11 else have you read that caused you to change your mind?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Huh?
14 A. I do not remember.
15 Q. Well, ma'am, with all due respect, if you read
16 something, you read it in the last ten days, right?
17 A. Not necessarily.
18 Q. Well, when did you read something that made you
19 change your mind, a year ago?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Ma'am, you've spent a good deal of time with your
22 Counsel since this motion was filed to disqualify
23 Mr. Dandar; haven't you? Haven't you?
24 A. Some time, yes.
25 Q. Some time? Spend all day yesterday?
35
1 A. No.
2 Q. Could you help me out and just think for a moment,
3 with the time you spent in connection with the last hearing
4 on April 19th and the time you spent in preparation for
5 this hearing, tell me, just in the last ten, twelve days,
6 what is it that you have seen that has caused you to change
7 your testimony about the Minton money other than this
8 letter which we're waiting for you to produce? Other than
9 that. Anything else?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection, calls for privileged
11 communications.
12 THE COURT: Well, to the extent that her
13 answer includes privileged communications, then
14 it would be sustained.
15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Just identify the document. Just tell me it's a
18 letter from so and so to so and so, it's a deposition, it's
19 an affidavit.
20 Tell me what you've seen, ma'am, that's caused
21 you to change your testimony.
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. You don't remember? Okay. Well, maybe you will
24 have a chance to think about it over lunch and then maybe
25 you'll be able to tell us. Let's move on to Exhibit 32.
36
1 Do you have Exhibit 32 in front of you, Ms. Liebreich?
2 A. I'm getting it.
3 Q. Okay. Good. This is another portion of the same
4 deposition of May 24th, 1999 of you, you being represented
5 by Ken Dandar.
6 I want you to turn to Page 173, and I want to
7 direct your attention to the questions and answers starting
8 on Line 10 and going through Line 17.
9 And I will ask you again whether you remember
10 being asked these questions and giving these answers under
11 sworn oath, ma'am.
12 Question, "Well, do you consider the money that
13 Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of the
14 Estate of Lisa McPherson?"
15 Answer, "Yes."
16 Question, "So it is not Mr. Dandar's money to
17 go buy his wife an anniversary gift or himself some
18 personal item; is that correct?"
19 Answer, "Right."
20 Did you give those answers?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you gave them under the same oath that you
23 took before taking the witness stand today, right, in this
24 courtroom?
25 A. Right.
37
1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, are those answers true?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they true when you gave them on May 24th,
4 1999?
5 A. To my best understanding.
6 Q. And they're true today; aren't they, ma'am?
7 A. Well --
8 Q. Because if you say they're not, I'm going to ask
9 you what caused you to change your mind, so think about it.
10 Are these answers true today or not?
11 A. The money was a loan to Mr. Dandar. I --
12 Q. Are these answers true today? Yes or no.
13 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. He's
14 interrupting the witness.
15 THE COURT: The witness was not being
16 responsive.
17 THE WITNESS: It's a loan to him. I feel
18 like he can do what he wants to with it.
19 BY MR. ROSEN:
20 Q. I'm going to ask you one more time, Ms. Liebreich.
21 I just read you questions and answers from Line 10 to Line
22 17.
23 I ask you again. Are those answers that you
24 gave to those two questions, are they true today? Yes or
25 no, ma'am.
38
1 A. Well, I still say it's a loan to him.
2 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, you understand what the oath
3 is that you've taken to swear to tell the truth, right?
4 A. I tell the truth.
5 Q. And you wouldn't commit perjury in this courtroom
6 just because Mr. Dandar asked you to; would you?
7 A. Never. Mr. Dandar would never ask me to commit
8 perjury.
9 Q. So when you testified earlier today at the
10 beginning of this examination that it was your
11 understanding that this was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar
12 from Mr. Minton for Mr. Dandar to use any way he wanted,
13 including buying his wife an anniversary gift, Mr. Dandar
14 didn't tell you to say that; you decided to say that,
15 right?
16 A. I said it.
17 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Page 174 of the same
18 deposition.
19 Line 14, just so we understand that you weren't
20 asked this question once, Ms. Liebreich, you were asked
21 this question many times, Line 14:
22 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is
23 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding
24 the litigation?"
25 Answer, "Right."
39
1 Did you give that answer under oath, ma'am?
2 A. Yes, because that's what he's spending it for.
3 Q. Was it true at the time, ma'am?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it true today?
6 A. That's what he's spending it for.
7 Q. That's what who is spending it for?
8 A. Ken is spending the money for that.
9 Q. For what?
10 A. For the litigation.
11 Q. How do you know that? Have you ever gotten an
12 accounting of what he's spent of the 2 million? Yes or no,
13 ma'am.
14 A. I'll take his word for it.
15 Q. Okay. Well, since you're going to tell me you
16 take his word for it, tell me what he told you on the
17 subject.
18 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. ROSEN: I think, Your Honor, this is
21 calling for it, this privileged --
22 MR. LIROT: There's no foundation for
23 that, Judge.
24 THE COURT: Objection sustained.
25 BY MR. ROSEN:
40
1 Q. Was it true on May 24th, 1999 that it was your
2 understanding that Mr. Minton donated the money to the
3 Estate? Yes or no, ma'am.
4 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you ever made a tape recording
8 thanking Mr. Minton for his donations to the Estate?
9 A. The only recording that I recall was -- I believe
10 it was the second anniversary of the trust. And someone --
11 I believe it was Mark Bunker -- called and said he was
12 making a tape -- it might have been someone else -- and
13 wanted to send Bob a thank-you tape. And I did say to him
14 how much I appreciated what he had done. And I don't
15 remember what I said, but I -- which I did appreciate what
16 he did.
17 Q. Now, on that tape, ma'am, you said that you wanted
18 to thank Mr. Minton for the money he had given to the
19 Estate to fund the wrongful death case, right?
20 A. I don't remember what I said.
21 MR. LIROT: Objection. Your Honor, we need to
22 see the tape.
23 MR. ROSEN: You don't remember?
24 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's
25 an objection, I'd appreciate it if you could
41
1 please just hold off.
2 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I
3 apologize.
4 THE COURT: Your objection is?
5 MR. LIROT: We need to see the tape if
6 he's going to ask her questions about what she
7 knows about this tape.
8 THE COURT: I think he can ask her
9 questions without having the tape here. If it
10 becomes an issue, maybe we'll have to get the
11 tape. If she knows, fine. If she doesn't,
12 fine. Let's find out what her response is.
13 THE WITNESS: I told you what I
14 remembered, thanking him. I don't remember
15 word by word what I said.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Well, let me see if I can help refresh your
18 recollection with your testimony of ten days ago. Can you
19 turn to Exhibit 61, please, ma'am, Page 354.
20 A. 61?
21 Q. Yeah, Exhibit 61.
22 A. Page what?
23 Q. Page 354. See it?
24 And in the first several lines you're referring
25 to this tape on the second anniversary just as you've just
42
1 said, and we come down to the question on Line 12.
2 "You thanked him," him being Mr. Minton, "for
3 the money he had given to the Estate to fund the case."
4 Answer, "Yes, yes."
5 Do you remember giving those answers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were those answers true at the time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. So at the time that you answered this under
10 oath, you were referring to the statement on the tape in
11 which you thanked Mr. Minton for giving money, a, to the
12 Estate and, b, to fund the wrongful death case, right?
13 A. Mr. Dandar was paying the expenses out of that
14 money.
15 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike it as not
16 responsive, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Dandar tell you who the Swiss
20 bank checks were from?
21 A. He didn't know.
22 Q. Is that what he said to you?
23 A. He told me he didn't know who they were from.
24 Q. When did he tell you that, ma'am?
25 A. Well, the day he received them.
43
1 Q. So, in other words, you have a recollection in
2 March of the year -- excuse me -- in May of the year 2000
3 that Mr. Dandar said I just got this check -- in words or
4 substance -- I just got a Swiss bank check for $500,000 and
5 I don't know whose money it is. Is that what he said to
6 you in words or substance?
7 MR. LIROT: Objection, attorney/client
8 privilege.
9 THE COURT: I think the privilege has been
10 waived. She's already testified to it.
11 Overruled.
12 BY MR. ROSEN:
13 Q. Is that your testimony?
14 A. He called me, yes, and told me, he says, "I don't
15 know who it's from."
16 Q. I want you to think about this conversation. What
17 time of day was this?
18 A. Two years ago? I have no idea.
19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am.
20 A. I have no earthly idea.
21 Q. What day of the week was it?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. So is it correct that the only thing you remember
24 about this conversation on the telephone is Mr. Dandar
25 calling you and saying, "I just got a check for $500,000
44
1 and I don't know who it's from."
2 Is that it?
3 A. Right, that's right.
4 Q. Do you remember anything else about that
5 conversation?
6 A. I didn't ask him and he didn't tell me that I
7 remember.
8 Q. So he didn't tell you, for example, who handed him
9 the check, huh?
10 A. I didn't ask.
11 Q. And he didn't say?
12 A. I do not remember if he did.
13 Q. And he didn't say anything about some mysterious
14 fat man in Switzerland being the one who donated the money;
15 did he?
16 A. I don't remember. He might have.
17 Q. You don't remember -- as you sit here today, you
18 don't remember any mention of any fat man in this
19 conversation of May of 2000; do you, ma'am?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Okay. But you're sure that he told you about this
22 in March of -- in May of 2000. That, you're certain of,
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 61 again. And I
45
1 would like to go through a couple of other portions of your
2 testimony of April 20th.
3 Let's start with Page 400, ma'am.
4 Bottom of 400, top of 401, question, "You heard
5 yesterday the assertions that Mr. Dandar bought some
6 property with some of this money?"
7 Answer, "Yeah, I heard that."
8 Question, "Do you know it's true?"
9 Answer, "I'm sure it is not."
10 Question, "Why?"
11 Answer, "Because he told me it was not true."
12 Did Mr. Dandar tell you it was not true that he
13 used some of the Minton/Swiss money to buy real estate? Is
14 that what you're saying here?
15 A. He didn't tell me that.
16 Q. Did Mr. Dandar tell you it is not true that he
17 used any of Minton's money to buy any real estate?
18 A. He said they're lying or something like that. He
19 didn't do it.
20 Q. Got you. And continuing on to Page 401, after you
21 say it's not true, question, "You wouldn't want him,"
22 meaning Mr. Dandar, "to do that; would you?"
23 Answer, "No."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. What line is it?
46
1 Q. Lines 5, 6 and 7 on Page 401.
2 A. I see it.
3 Q. And that was the truth, right?
4 A. Well, he wouldn't do it.
5 Q. And you didn't want him to use any of that money
6 from Mr. Minton to buy real estate or something for
7 himself; is that right?
8 A. If he wanted to, he could.
9 Q. Huh?
10 A. If he wanted to, he could.
11 Q. But you didn't want him to do that, right?
12 A. Well, I didn't want him to, but it would be all
13 right.
14 Q. Let's go to Page 469, bottom of the page, Line 19.
15 This is all your testimony of ten days ago, ma'am.
16 Question, "You became aware of that through a
17 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000
18 in March?"
19 Answer, "Yes."
20 That's March of 2002. You remember that,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he
24 was going to do with that money?"
25 Answer, "Well, I assumed he was going to pay
47
1 bills. He was going to go out --"
2 Excuse me.
3 "I assumed he was going to pay bills."
4 Is that what he told you?
5 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. There's clearly
6 a comma, a the missing page.
7 MR. ROSEN: Counsel is right. I just
8 noticed it. Page 470 is missing. Let me start
9 again at the bottom of 69.
10 BY MR. ROSEN:
11 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he
12 was going to do with that money?"
13 Answer, "Well, I assumed he's going to pay
14 bills, just like he had with the other money."
15 "Pay bills in this case?" Question.
16 Answer, "Right, in the wrongful death case."
17 Did Mr. Dandar tell you he used the money to
18 pay bills in the wrongful death case?
19 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I
21 don't know what you're reading from.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 MR. ROSEN: Huh?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I
25 don't know what you're reading.
48
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. I'm reading from your deposition. Do you want me
3 to read it again?
4 A. Can I have a copy of it?
5 Q. Yeah. Here is Page 470.
6 A. Well, 470 is not in here.
7 Q. Here.
8 A. What was your question?
9 MR. ROSEN: Can you read back?
10 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Did Mr. Dandar
11 tell you he used the money to pay bills in the wrongful
12 death case?"
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Is that what he told you?
15 A. I'm sure he did.
16 Q. I will read to you from Line 15 -- starting at
17 Line 15, Page 470.
18 Question, "And it was your understanding he was
19 going to cover expenses in this case with that
20 money -- that money being the $250,000 in March of
21 2002 -- right?
22 Answer, "Right."
23 "And that's all he was going to do with it,
24 right?"
25 Mr. Dandar objects.
49
1 Answer, "As far as I know."
2 Question, "Okay. I mean, you didn't think
3 somebody -- and then to the top of 471 -- was going to go
4 out and buy a warehouse or something with it, did you?
5 Answer, "No."
6 Were those answers true when you gave them ten
7 days ago?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you expected that Mr. Dandar was going to use
10 all of the $250,000 that he got in March of 2002 to pay
11 bills and for expenses in the wrongful death case; is that
12 right, ma'am?
13 MR. LIROT: Objection. Her assumptions are
14 irrelevant.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Is that right, ma'am?
18 A. That's what I thought, I guess.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen, we're going to
20 have to break.
21 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
22 THE COURT: We're going to take a break for
23 lunch and return at 1:30.
24 (Thereupon, the luncheon recess was held.)
25 THE COURT: Ms. Liebreich, if you will resume.
50
1 You're still under oath, ma'am.
2 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, may I approach?
3 This is substitute Exhibit 61 that has the
4 missing page in it.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you had a chance during the
7 luncheon recess to visit with your purse?
8 A. To visit with whom?
9 Q. Your purse.
10 A. It's not in my purse.
11 Q. What do you think happened to this letter you're
12 telling us about?
13 A. It's at home, I'm sure, in my files.
14 Q. You left it at home in Texas?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When is the last time you saw it, ma'am?
17 A. Probably a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember.
18 Q. You just forgot to bring it with you; did you?
19 A. Apparently.
20 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, before I continue to review
21 with you your prior deposition testimony, I would like to
22 ask you something to make sure you have an understanding of
23 something.
24 You know that in this case before Judge Baird
25 that not only is the Estate a defendant but you are a
51
1 personal defendant? You know that, right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You know that the Plaintiff is looking for a
4 judgment against you personally, meaning that you would
5 need to pay that out of your own funds, not any estate
6 funds or anybody else's money. You understand that, right?
7 I'm sorry, ma'am?
8 A. It's against me personally?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you ever had a judgment entered against you
14 personally?
15 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
16 Q. Okay. Well, if somebody ever got a judgment
17 against you, that's something you might remember; isn't it?
18 A. I would think so.
19 Q. Okay. Do you understand that in this case the
20 Plaintiff is asking for a judgment against you personally,
21 meaning that it would seize your bank accounts or whatever
22 assets you have?
23 Do you understand that that's the Plaintiff's
24 request here?
25 A. Well, I hope not.
52
1 Q. You don't know? I mean, that was never explained
2 to you by anyone?
3 MR. LIROT: It's privileged, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Sustained.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Anyone outside of Counsel.
7 A. No.
8 Q. And if a judgment were entered against you
9 personally, you don't have any expectation anybody else is
10 going to pay it; do you?
11 MR. LIROT: Objection on relevance.
12 THE COURT: Sustained.
13 BY MR. ROSEN:
14 Q. Do you understand, Ms. Liebreich, that if Judge
15 Baird were to find that you have not told the truth, one of
16 the remedies the law gives him is to strike your answer and
17 enter a default in favor of the Plaintiff?
18 MR. LIROT: Objection, speculation. Calls for
19 legal conclusion.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm telling the truth.
22 BY MR. ROSEN:
23 Q. Do you understand what I just said to you?
24 A. I understand what you said.
25 Q. And all of the answers that you gave before the
53
1 luncheon recess, you stand on those, right?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. They're the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
4 the truth, right, Ms. Liebreich?
5 A. To the best of my memory.
6 Q. All right. Let's turn again to Exhibit 61, a
7 transcript of your deposition ten days ago. I will ask you
8 to turn to Page 344. And I will direct your attention to
9 Lines 6 through 12 -- excuse me -- 6 through 9.
10 Were you asked the following questions and did
11 you give the following answers:
12 Question, "All right. How many times did you
13 consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
14 Answer, "Anytime he wanted to. I don't know
15 how many times. Anytime he wanted to."
16 Was that answer true at the time that you gave
17 it?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And continuing on Line 10 through 12, you were
20 asked the following question, "But Mr. Dandar called you a
21 number of times and said do you consent to the Estate
22 having this money from Minton?"
23 And your answer, which appears on Page 345,
24 Line 2 is, answer, "Yes."
25 Was that true ten days ago?
54
1 A. Well, I'm sure whatever I said was true to the
2 best of my knowledge.
3 Q. Okay. And continuing on Lines 3 and 4 on Page
4 345, you were then asked the question, "What did you think
5 you were consenting to?"
6 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from
7 Mr. Minton."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And was that answer true when you gave it ten days
11 ago?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And it's true today, right?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Please turn to Page 347.
16 And I want to direct your attention first to
17 Lines 4 through 16.
18 Again, I will ask you if you were asked these
19 questions and gave these answers.
20 Question, "Now, you heard yesterday about a
21 $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of 2000. Do
22 you remember that?"
23 Answer, "The $500,000, yes."
24 Question, "Yeah. Do you know about that
25 $500,000 --"
55
1 Answer, "Yes."
2 Question, "-- check when it came in?"
3 Answer, "Yes."
4 "How did you know about that?"
5 Answer, "He said he didn't know who it was
6 from."
7 Question, "But that was for the funding of the
8 Estate too, right?"
9 Answer, "Right."
10 Did you give those answers?
11 A. I did.
12 Q. And were they true when you gave them ten days
13 ago?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And are they true today?
16 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge.
17 Q. Okay. Continuing on starting on Line 17.
18 A. I take that back. Let me read that again.
19 Q. Sure. Take your time.
20 A. Well, it was given to Ken for whatever he wanted
21 to spend it for, but they did say funding the Estate. So
22 if he wanted to spend it for that, that's right.
23 Q. Continuing on -- are you done with your answer,
24 ma'am?
25 A. Right.
56
1 Q. Yeah?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The answer that you gave that appears on -- the
4 answers that appear on Lines 4 through 16, are they true
5 today or not? Yes or no would be sufficient.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Good. Okay. Line 17, question, "Do you know
8 about the $250,000 check in March of 2002?"
9 Answer, "I did."
10 Question, "Mr. Dandar told you about it?"
11 Answer, "Yes."
12 Going over to Page 348, Lines 1 through 3, "So
13 you knew that money came in for the litigation of this case
14 and the Estate."
15 Answer, "Right."
16 Were those answers true when you gave them ten
17 days ago, ma'am?
18 A. Well, that's what I said.
19 Q. I know that's what you said. My question is were
20 those answers true under oath? Were they true ten days
21 ago?
22 A. Well, Ken has been spending the money for the
23 Estate.
24 Q. Are they true today, ma'am?
25 A. Yes.
57
1 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Page 439, Line 19.
2 Question, "Okay. It's your testimony that you
3 knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from
4 Mr. Minton."
5 A. What line? What line?
6 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, Line 19 on Page 439.
7 "Okay. It's your testimony that you knew about
8 the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from Mr. Minton in
9 May of 2000, correct?"
10 Answer, "Right, right."
11 So was that answer true?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you knew, then, the check for $500,000 that
14 came to Mr. Dandar in May of 2000, Mr. Dandar had gotten,
15 quote, from Mr. Minton, closed quote. Is that right?
16 A. Well, I think he said Mr. Minton gave it to him,
17 but he didn't know who it came from. I don't remember
18 exactly what it was.
19 Q. You can't remember what he said?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. And then after the examination of you on
22 direct examination was completed, Mr. Dandar, your
23 attorney, then cross-examined you ten days ago, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So let's turn to Page 463, starting on Line 3, and
58
1 here's the question -- I'm sorry -- starting on Line 5,
2 actually. Here's the question Mr. Dandar asked you:
3 "Is it your understanding that the money that
4 Robert Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken
5 Dandar, your attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the
6 P.A.?"
7 Answer, "Yes," right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. On cross-examination ten days ago, ma'am, this is
10 the first time you have ever said in any affidavit or
11 deposition that the money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Ken
12 Dandar; isn't that right?
13 A. I don't know whether I've said it before or not.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking you. As you sit here, do you
15 have a recollection of ever saying in a deposition, in an
16 affidavit, in a court hearing, anywhere, anywhere in the
17 five years before April 20th, 2002, did you ever say in
18 words or substance, "Mr. Minton's money was a loan to Ken
19 Dandar"? Yes or no.
20 A. I just answered you. I don't remember. Possibly
21 I have. I don't remember.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar didn't tell you to give that
23 answer that I just read to you; did he?
24 A. No.
25 Q. He didn't tell you to lie; did he?
59
1 A. He's never told me to lie, or anyone else.
2 Q. He didn't tell you to lie in connection with this
3 question, right, and this answer?
4 A. No.
5 Q. So you decided to provide this answer on your own,
6 right?
7 A. I'm sure I did.
8 Q. Okay. You know that one of the other issues in
9 this case is the matter of the agreement made -- alleged
10 agreement made -- between the Estate and Mr. Minton that,
11 in substance, after the costs and expenses are paid, out of
12 any settlement or recovery in the wrongful death case, the,
13 quote, bulk of the recovery would be donated to some
14 anti-cult group? Are you aware that's one of the issues in
15 the case?
16 A. Well, that's what my sisters and brother -- we
17 kind of talked about it. There's no agreement.
18 Q. Did you agree amongst yourselves to that?
19 A. We talked about it. We had nothing in writing.
20 Q. Did you agree or not, ma'am?
21 A. We have nothing in writing.
22 Q. Ma'am, you're not answering my question. I didn't
23 ask you if there was anything in writing.
24 I asked you if you and your sisters and brother
25 agreed that after expenses, the bulk of any recovery in the
60
1 wrongful death case would be contributed to an anti-cult
2 group. Yes or no, ma'am.
3 A. Orally, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And that was communicated to Mr. Minton,
5 right --
6 A. Possibly.
7 Q. -- by your attorney, Mr. Dandar, right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Huh?
10 A. Possibly.
11 Q. In 1997, that was communicated, right?
12 A. I don't remember when it was.
13 Q. Can you tell me when it was that you and your
14 siblings agreed orally that the bulk of any recovery from
15 the wrongful death case would be donated to an anti-cult
16 group?
17 A. I cannot remember.
18 Q. Tell me approximately what year you think it was,
19 ma'am.
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Well, do me a favor. Before you jump to say you
22 don't remember, give it a moment of thought. It's
23 somewhere between 1997 and today. So see if you can help
24 me out. When was it?
25 A. It could have been '97, '98, '99 or 2000 or 2001.
61
1 I don't remember.
2 Q. It could have been any of those years, huh?
3 Okay. Let me see if I can help refresh your
4 recollection, ma'am. Let's turn to Exhibit 53.
5 This is a deposition of yours taken on May
6 24th, 1999. And I will direct your attention to Page 198.
7 A. Which one? 53?
8 Q. 53, ma'am.
9 A. I don't have a 53 that I see. I have 57, 56, 55,
10 54. I have a 33.
11 Q. 53.
12 A. 61, 32.
13 MR. ROSEN: May I approach, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Sure.
15 THE WITNESS: Here it is.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Oh, you have it? Good. Exhibit 53 -- Page 198,
18 Ms. Liebreich.
19 Do you have it, ma'am?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. I'm going to direct your attention to a
22 question. Actually, the question begins on Line 19.
23 "Is it an accurate description of your
24 agreement that -- is it correct -- that you on behalf of
25 the Estate of Lisa McPherson have agreed to donate the bulk
62
1 of any money that you get out of this case to a
2 cult-awareness group? Is that accurate?
3 Answer, "Yes."
4 Do you remember being asked that question and
5 giving that answer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. By the way, Ms. Liebreich, if you look at this
8 deposition of May of 1999, does that help in any way to
9 refresh your recollection as to when this agreement was
10 made?
11 A. Maybe it was '99. I don't remember when we talked
12 about it. It probably was '99.
13 Q. Could we agree that it was before May 24th, 1999,
14 ma'am?
15 A. Probably, yes.
16 Q. Probably. Okay. And let's go over to the top of
17 Page 199, then, continuing on, "Has that been discussed
18 with your other siblings?"
19 Answer, "Yes."
20 "And they have agreed to that?"
21 Answer, "Yes."
22 Do you remember being asked those questions and
23 giving those answers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were they true at the time?
63
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Let's turn, now, to Exhibit 54, ma'am. And
3 I will direct your attention to Page 25. This is the
4 deposition of your sister, Lee Skelton.
5 A. Page what?
6 Q. 25. This is the deposition of your sister Lee
7 Skelton, right?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And Ms. Skeleton is one of the people -- one of
10 the beneficiaries, if you would, who would ultimately share
11 in any recovery in the wrongful death case, right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. You'll notice -- I won't read this to you,
14 but I will ask you to read it to yourself -- the question
15 begins on Line 19 on Page 25, and the answer goes to the
16 top of Line 3 on Page 26.
17 If you will read that to myself, my only
18 question is going to be whether or not you have any
19 disagreement with that statement or whether your sister
20 told the truth.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. She told the truth, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 55, ma'am. This is a
25 deposition of another one of your sisters, Ann Carlson,
64
1 correct?
2 A. It looks that way.
3 Q. Say again?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And Ms. Carlson also would be a beneficiary
6 of any of the recovery in the wrongful death case?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. So let's turn, ma'am, to Page 19, and I will
9 direct your attention to -- and you can read to yourself
10 the question which appears on Line 8 and the answer which
11 goes down to Line 20.
12 Why don't you read that to yourself, and then
13 I'm going to ask you whether or not your sister told the
14 truth, whether that's true to your knowledge.
15 A. As far as I know, it's true.
16 Q. Okay. Good. Now we go to Exhibit 56. Exhibit 56
17 is another deposition of your sister Ann Carlson. This one
18 is July 27, 2000. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I will direct your attention, ma'am, to Page
21 225.
22 A. All right.
23 Q. I will ask you to read the questions and answers
24 starting on Line 13 and going down to the bottom of the
25 page on Line 25. Take your time and read it to yourself.
65
1 A. What was the question?
2 Q. Have you finished reading it, ma'am?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, your sister gave
5 truthful testimony there, right?
6 A. To the best of her knowledge, I'm sure she did.
7 Q. Now, Ms. Liebreich, did there come a time in 2000
8 when there was any discussion about not making any more
9 public statements about an agreement to donate the bulk of
10 the proceeds?
11 A. Was there --
12 Q. I will repeat the question. Did there come a time
13 towards the end of the year 2000 when you had discussions
14 with anyone on the subject of let's not make anymore
15 statements about this agreement to donate the bulk of the
16 proceeds?
17 A. No.
18 Q. No.
19 Okay. So I would assume, then, from what we've
20 just gone over that as far as you're concerned as you sit
21 here today, the intention and understanding of you and your
22 siblings remains to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of
23 any wrongful death recovery to an anti-cult group, right?
24 A. I don't know whether we would or not. I don't
25 know. We have no money...
66
1 Q. Did something happen to make you change your mind?
2 A. Well, that's possible.
3 Q. Well, and so is my becoming 5'10 tomorrow, but not
4 likely. So let me ask you again.
5 Apart from possibility, anything that you can
6 recall happen that made you change your mind?
7 A. I don't know about the rest of my siblings, but
8 I've changed my mind.
9 Q. I'm asking you. You didn't change your mind?
10 A. Well, after the way Mr. Minton testified against
11 Dan -- or Ken --
12 Q. You've changed your mind? You have changed your
13 mind.
14 A. I feel like I have.
15 Q. Okay. And that was just recently, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Let's turn to -- you have a file Exhibit 33 in
18 front of you, ma'am.
19 Do you see that, Ms. Liebreich?
20 A. I haven't found it yet. Here it is.
21 Q. Okay. Exhibit 33 is an affidavit of yours. Is
22 that your signature on the second page?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And you swore to this affidavit on the 20th of
25 December 2000, correct?
67
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered, Judge.
3 MR. ROSEN: Say again?
4 MR. LIROT: The question has been asked
5 and answered. We've already gone through this
6 affidavit.
7 THE WITNESS: You did. You asked that
8 earlier.
9 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: You asked it earlier.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, let me direct your attention to the
13 first part of Paragraph 2, that, "Affiant has never entered
14 into a binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa
15 McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to the disposition of
16 funds."
17 Let me stop there. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you did enter into an agreement, but the
20 agreement, you're saying in here -- what you meant to say
21 is that the agreement is just not binding.
22 A. A verbal agreement, nothing in writing.
23 Q. Right. So because the agreement is verbal,
24 nothing in writing, in your mind it's not binding.
25 A. Right.
68
1 Q. Now, I want to be careful about this. If you can
2 answer this question, please, yes or no.
3 Have you received any legal advice on the
4 subject of whether a verbal agreement is binding or
5 non-binding? Just yes or no would be good enough.
6 A. No.
7 Q. So you somehow concluded in your own mind that if
8 the agreement is not in writing, it's not binding; you
9 don't have to honor it, right? Is that right?
10 A. I haven't thought about it.
11 Q. Well, isn't that what you meant when you said it's
12 not binding because it's not in writing?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Okay. Paragraph 3 of the affidavit, you are here
15 testifying that the Lisa McPherson Trust has not advanced
16 any funds to defray costs in the wrongful death case,
17 right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Did you make any inquiry of anyone as to whether
20 that statement was true before you swore to it?
21 A. No, I don't believe I did.
22 Q. No? Who drafted this affidavit?
23 A. It seems like to me the reason it was drawn up was
24 that Scientology kept bugging, bugging about Mr. Minton
25 running the lawsuit and running everything and all of that,
69
1 and I just -- we just decided to do that.
2 Q. Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, but can you tell
3 me who prepared this affidavit?
4 A. Well, Ken's office did.
5 Q. Whose idea was it to file an affidavit saying
6 there's no binding agreement?
7 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
8 THE COURT: Sustained.
9 BY MR. ROSEN:
10 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that Mr. Lirot has filed
11 an appearance as additional counsel representing you and
12 the Estate in this case?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Lirot, never hired him,
15 right? Is that right?
16 A. Me personally hire him?
17 Q. Yeah.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Well, you say you personally, ma'am. Do you
20 understand Mr. Lirot is representing you personally in this
21 case before Judge Baird? You understand that, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You never hired him, you never spoke to him about
24 that, right?
25 A. I've talked with him.
70
1 Q. No. You never hired him. You never spoke to him
2 about hiring him, right?
3 A. I talked to Ken about hiring him, yes.
4 Q. Mr. Dandar is the one who hired him, right?
5 A. Well, after our discussions.
6 Q. You never met or heard of Mr. Lirot. Mr. Dandar
7 hired him, right?
8 A. I just answered your question.
9 Q. Who is paying him?
10 MR. LIROT: Objection.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 BY MR. ROSEN:
13 Q. You're aware, as well, that Mr. Lirot has appeared
14 as counsel for the Estate in the wrongful death case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Dandar made that decision, right?
17 A. We discussed it.
18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, isn't it true that you didn't know
19 anything about Mr. Lirot appearing as counsel for the
20 Estate in the wrongful death case until he already did it
21 and Mr. Dandar told you about it? Isn't that true?
22 A. No, that's not true.
23 Q. And you never signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot
24 to represent you or the Estate in this case, right?
25 A. I have not.
71
1 Q. And you've not signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot
2 to represent the Estate in the wrongful death case, right?
3 A. Not yet.
4 Q. Have you been asked to? I said, have you been
5 asked to?
6 A. Not yet.
7 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing further, Your
8 Honor.
9 I will offer into evidence the exhibits
10 that we've used in the examination of this
11 witness so I don't forget like I did last time.
12 And they are the portion of Exhibit 56,
13 the portion of Exhibit 55, the portion of
14 Exhibit 61 -- all of these are
15 transcripts -- the portion of Exhibit 54, the
16 portion of Exhibit 53, Exhibit 33, the portion
17 of Exhibit 57, Exhibit 17 -- a portion of
18 Exhibit 17; I'm sorry -- the portion of Exhibit
19 32.
20 And that, I believe, is all of them, Your
21 Honor. I would offer them into evidence.
22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object to
23 the depositions of anyone other than
24 Ms. Liebreich. We object to Exhibit 55, the
25 excerpts of the deposition from Ann Carlson.
72
1 THE COURT: On what grounds?
2 MR. LIROT: Judge, there has been no
3 authentication here, and I don't think we have
4 the signature page. We would object on the
5 grounds of the rule of completeness.
6 And these witnesses -- these deponents
7 haven't been there to be allowed to have any
8 cross-examination regarding their answers or
9 anything involved in these depositions.
10 MR. ROSEN: I wasn't offering them for the
11 truth, Your Honor. If you recall my questions
12 they were specifically whether this witness,
13 having read those questions and answers, agrees
14 with the statements and agrees that they were
15 true. That's the only reason they're being
16 offered, not for the truth.
17 THE COURT: I think that her responses to
18 the questions were such that the portions of
19 the depositions themselves are not necessary.
20 I will sustain the objection.
21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, my problem is that
22 she didn't read them out loud. If you
23 remember, I had her read them to herself.
24 So without the exhibits going in, the
25 record will not show what it is she's agreeing
73
1 to.
2 And if the only objection is authenticity,
3 do we have to call a court reporter to
4 authenticate that transcript? I will put
5 Mr. Dandar on the stand; he was there.
6 So if Counsel wants to object to
7 authenticity, I can authenticate them three
8 different ways.
9 MR. LIROT: Mr. Dandar wasn't the
10 deponent, Judge.
11 MR. ROSEN: He was present.
12 THE COURT: I know he wasn't a deponent.
13 The question is, do you really have an
14 objection to the authenticity of these
15 depositions?
16 MR. LIROT: I have an objection to not
17 being able to cross-examine the deponents in
18 these depositions to explain their answers.
19 THE COURT: Well, but their answers are
20 really not relevant. What's relevant is this
21 witness's answers, and you have an opportunity
22 to cross-examine her.
23 All right. I will go ahead and admit
24 them.
25 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
74
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. LIROT:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Liebreich.
4 I would like to ask you some questions bearing
5 on some of the questions that Mr. Rosen has asked you, and
6 I will do the best I can to go through these exhibits that
7 you've been handed.
8 And I would like to start off with Exhibit
9 Number 33, the affidavit.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, you testified that you signed this affidavit.
12 And Mr. Rosen asked you about Paragraph 2, that you as the
13 affiant -- and I will quote -- has never entered into a
14 binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson
15 Trust nor anyone else as to any disposition of any funds
16 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the wrongful
17 death action pending against the Church of Scientology in
18 excess of any costs advanced by Robert Minton to defray
19 costs of litigation.
20 You were asked if that was truthful, and I
21 think your testimony was that there was nothing in writing.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Now, have you got any formal legal training?
24 A. No, none at all.
25 Q. All right. So what is it that you understand
75
1 about necessary to reach an agreement with anybody on
2 anything?
3 A. It should be in writing, preferably notarized.
4 Q. Should it include the terms --
5 A. I would think so.
6 Q. -- that you're going to discuss?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Should those terms be specific?
9 A. I would think so.
10 Q. So an oral agreement to give somebody a bulk of
11 anything, is that specific?
12 A. A bulk of nothing, I guess, no.
13 Q. Was there ever any agreement to give any money to
14 Robert Minton from the Estate or any agreement whatsoever
15 to give money to the Lisa McPherson Trust ever --
16 A. Never.
17 Q. -- orally or otherwise?
18 A. No, I don't believe so. Not to my knowledge, no,
19 no agreement.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen was concerned about whether or not
21 you knew of the loans made to Mr. Dandar by Mr. Minton.
22 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, if I may ask for a
23 continued allowance to approach the witness.
24 THE COURT: No objection.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
76
1 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter dated October 24th,
2 1997 which appears to bear your signature. Can you tell
3 the Court what that document is.
4 MR. ROSEN: Can I have a copy?
5 MR. LIROT: Yes, you can.
6 THE WITNESS: Would you like me to read
7 it?
8 MR. LIROT: Yes, please.
9 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I object to this.
10 This was a document that was asked for in
11 discovery repeatedly. It was asked for in a
12 notice to produce in this case.
13 Counsel has kept it in his briefcase and
14 now springs it.
15 We served a notice to produce for copies
16 of all correspondence between Mr. Dandar and
17 this witness. Nothing produced.
18 Not only two years ago, but as the notice
19 to produce for this case. A little bit late
20 for this.
21 MR. LIROT: I just got this document
22 today, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Well, I'm not blaming you
24 personally, but, you know, when a notice goes
25 out and evidence is to be produced, then
77
1 there's a reason for that.
2 And obviously there's a reason why there
3 are rules about whether or not you can use it
4 if you choose not to produce it or someone
5 chooses not to produce it.
6 MR. LIROT: I understand that.
7 THE COURT: You know, this isn't a game of
8 surprise here.
9 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the
11 objection unless you can give me a reasonable
12 explanation as to why it wasn't produced at the
13 time it was requested.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't have any
15 personal explanation because I haven't been
16 involved in this case as long as the request to
17 produce.
18 THE COURT: Then it's presumably
19 inadmissable, then.
20 MR. LIROT: Well, I will ask her questions
21 based on that time, then.
22 BY MR. LIROT:
23 Q. Do you remember receiving a letter from Mr. Dandar
24 explaining that a gentleman by the name of Robert Minton
25 wanted to provide funds to him?
78
1 MR. ROSEN: Objection. I asked for the
2 letter. It hasn't been produced.
3 THE COURT: We're just not going to get
4 into this, either directly or indirectly.
5 That's what discovery is all about,
6 Mr. Lirot. And, you know, I'm sorry, but it's
7 just not fair to refuse to produce something in
8 discovery and then use the evidence at trial.
9 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could speak to
10 Mr. Dandar for a second and try to come up with
11 an explanation, if you would grant me that
12 indulgence.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may respond to the
15 Court's concerns, Mr. Dandar handed me a copy
16 of the notice to produce at hearing bearing a
17 service date of April 18th, 2002.
18 And this notice to produce served by
19 Mr. Rosen asks for copies of all transmittal
20 letters from anyone in the firm of Dandar &
21 Dandar to Dell Liebreich.
22 This is a letter from Dell Liebreich to
23 Mr. Dandar, so that would be responsive to this
24 specific request to produce.
25 THE COURT: Let me see it.
79
1 MR. LIROT: If I may, Your Honor.
2 And, again, this is the notice to produce
3 at hearing signed by Mr. Rosen with a service
4 date of April 18th, 2002. Approaching the
5 bench.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we asked for these
7 documents in discovery. You may recall that
8 after the January deposition we asked for
9 correspondence back and forth between
10 Mrs. Liebreich --
11 THE COURT: You better show me the
12 discovery request.
13 MR. ROSEN: That's what we're looking for
14 now.
15 THE COURT: Do you want to take a short
16 break here?
17 MR. LIROT: Certainly.
18 THE COURT: All right. Let's take five
19 minutes.
20 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.)
21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, we do not have all
22 of our document requests here.
23 What I propose to do is this, with respect
24 to this letter: If Mr. Dandar will stand up
25 and represent to you under oath that no
80
1 document request called for this
2 letter -- which is itself privileged on the
3 face of it -- no document request has ever been
4 served by my client in either this case or the
5 wrongful death case, I will withdraw my
6 objection on that ground pending our searching
7 tonight.
8 But I would like Mr. Dandar's
9 representation under oath that no document
10 request was ever served for this letter of
11 October 24th, 1997 from Ms. Liebreich to
12 Mr. Dandar.
13 The other thing -- and if we find
14 something, I'll let you know tomorrow, but we
15 don't have all of our files here.
16 The other thing is there was no original
17 of this letter, and I do object. This is a
18 letter supposedly sent from this witness to
19 Mr. Dandar. I would like to see the original.
20 MR. LIROT: Judge, we have the original,
21 and I will work with Mr. Rosen if he modifies
22 that to the extent that no request for
23 production was made that wasn't responded to
24 with assertion of the attorney/client
25 privilege.
81
1 MR. ROSEN: No. If you asserted the
2 privilege, you can't waive it now. So adverse
3 shield is the rhetoric.
4 THE COURT: You can't object to it on the
5 basis of, you know -- in discovery -- on the
6 basis of privilege and then try to introduce it
7 at trial.
8 MR. LIROT: The only issue now, Judge,
9 is -- it's become an issue as far as
10 notification -- of these checks.
11 And I don't think -- from what I've seen,
12 there hasn't been any request for production of
13 that pending upon what I have seen in my
14 involvement in this case.
15 I'm not trying to mince the rules here.
16 I'm trying to just basically get the
17 information out to rebut or at least have a
18 reasonable cross-examination of Ms. Liebreich.
19 THE COURT: Well, you understand that part
20 of what the Plaintiff is trying to do here is
21 to suggest that Mr. Dandar has not been
22 entirely forthcoming in many aspects of this
23 case, and they're suggesting this is just
24 another example of that.
25 Now, I can go ahead and accept it, but I
82
1 can at the same time, if the request for
2 production is produced, take into consideration
3 of that along with all of the other evidence to
4 determine whether or not Mr. Dandar has been
5 entirely forthcoming about this.
6 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I understand your
7 concern, but basically if there's a privilege
8 that's been asserted, then I'm under an
9 obligation to maintain that privilege and
10 withdraw the letter.
11 THE COURT: Well, what do you want to do?
12 MR. LIROT: I will withdraw the letter.
13 THE COURT: That solves that. Let's move
14 on.
15 MR. LIROT: Very good. Judge, may I
16 approach the witness?
17 THE COURT: Go ahead.
18 BY MR. LIROT:
19 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to hand you what's been
20 marked as Exhibit 9 by Mr. Rosen. And this is a letter on
21 the letterhead of Dandar & Dandar dated October 9th, 1997.
22 MR. LIROT: And, Mr. Rosen, this was your
23 Exhibit 9 from the prior hearing.
24 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, sir.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
83
1 Q. I'm going to ask you, that letter is addressed to
2 Mr. Minton. Do you ever recall receiving a copy of that
3 letter?
4 MR. ROSEN: I object, Your Honor. This is
5 covered by the notice to produce. Any
6 correspondence --
7 THE COURT: This is a piece of
8 correspondence you introduced previously,
9 right?
10 MR. ROSEN: No, no. I introduced it as a
11 letter Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Minton. The
12 notice to produce says produce any letters sent
13 from Mr. Dandar to this witness.
14 If this letter was sent to the witness, it
15 should have been identified because she's not
16 cc'd on the letter.
17 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule that.
18 This is a copy of it. It's already been
19 introduced. Go ahead.
20 BY MR. LIROT:
21 Q. Have you seen that letter before, Ms. Liebreich?
22 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember. I might have. I
23 believe I did. I believe I have.
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Around October of 1997, did
25 you become aware that Robert Minton had an interest in
84
1 providing funds in some fashion or another?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure I've received this
3 letter. I feel sure I have, yes.
4 THE COURT: You have to speak up, ma'am. I
5 can't hear you.
6 THE WITNESS: I feel sure that I did
7 receive this because Ken and I had discussed
8 it.
9 BY MR. LIROT:
10 Q. Did you become aware that the condition upon which
11 any funds under any label that Mr. Minton gave to any party
12 related to this litigation or characterized as a loan was
13 on the condition that he not control the wrongful death
14 case?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. And that he would not be privy to any
17 attorney/client or otherwise privileged communications?
18 A. That's true.
19 Q. And did you agree to those conditions?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. To your knowledge, has there ever been any
22 instance where Mr. Minton tried to influence you or control
23 any of the decision-making processes in the wrongful death
24 case?
25 A. He never has, no.
85
1 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken numerous times,
2 and Mr. Rosen provided you with a number of different
3 copies of depositions, I think.
4 If you will kindly draw your attention to
5 Exhibit Number 17, which is a deposition from, I believe,
6 May 24th, 1999. This exhibit are excerpts of that
7 particular deposition.
8 A. 17?
9 Q. 17, yes.
10 A. Okay. Okay. What page did you say?
11 Q. Page 164, please.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. All right. Mr. Rosen asked you to go through
14 Lines 12 through 21, and I believe it states, question,
15 "How did you first learn that Mr. Minton was going to, I
16 believe your words were, give money or help finance the
17 lawsuit?"
18 Your answer was, "Ken told me, I believe."
19 "When was that approximately?"
20 Your answer was, "I can't remember the dates.
21 It was probably -- it was before we went down there in
22 December of '98, but I don't remember. It could have been
23 November/October. I don't remember."
24 Does that transmittal letter to Mr. Minton
25 refresh your memory?
86
1 A. Yes. That was the year before, right. It was
2 '97.
3 Q. So is there anything untruthful in your deposition
4 testimony of May 24th, 1999?
5 A. No. I just didn't remember the dates.
6 Q. Okay. Now, if you would, draw your attention to
7 Exhibit Number 32. And I will give you a second to dig
8 that up.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Mr. Rosen asked you a question on Lines 10 through
11 17, I believe.
12 The question was, "You do consider the money
13 that Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of
14 the Estate of Lisa McPherson."
15 And your answer was yes.
16 Now, have you got any legal training as far as
17 negotiable instruments or loan documents or anything along
18 those lines?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. All right. Did you have full import of these
21 questions when asked about whether or not this was for the
22 benefit of the Estate or whether this was a loan to
23 Mr. Dandar; were any of your answers based on an analysis
24 of the legal implications of those different terms?
25 A. They were not.
87
1 Q. So, basically, was it your understanding that this
2 money was officially a loan to Mr. Dandar and nothing more?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And is it true that you trusted Mr. Dandar to
5 dedicate these funds to use in the wrongful death case?
6 A. That's true.
7 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, ordinarily I would
8 object to Counsel testifying, but I have great
9 faith in the Court's ability to perceive that.
10 THE COURT: Right. Thank you.
11 BY MR. LIROT:
12 Q. Is anything that you stated in your deposition on
13 that particular page untruthful?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And the same question goes for Page 252, Lines 14
16 to 17.
17 A. On which exhibit?
18 Q. Page 252 of that same exhibit, Exhibit Number 32.
19 A. Oh, here it is.
20 Q. The question that you were asked, "Is it your
21 understanding that Mr. Minton is donating the money to the
22 Estate for purposes of funding the litigation?"
23 Your answer was, "Right."
24 As you sit here today, did you intend to
25 mislead or have the intent to give any untruthful answer to
88
1 that question?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Rosen makes it seem that
4 you're giving two different answers here. Can you explain
5 that?
6 MR. ROSEN: Argumentative.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: It's the same to me,
9 everything that I've said, that the money was
10 given by Mr. Minton to Ken Dandar as a loan to
11 do with as he saw fit. And that's the way I
12 feel about it. But I might not have stated it
13 that way every time.
14 BY MR. LIROT:
15 Q. Well, was that because you believed that to be
16 different or is that the basis of some confusion you may
17 have had?
18 A. Well, he keeps turning things around, but, I mean,
19 it's all the same. I haven't changed my thoughts.
20 Q. Has your understanding of the money from
21 Mr. Minton never actually changed from what you assumed to
22 be the loan to Mr. Dandar? Has that ever changed
23 throughout this litigation?
24 A. No, it hasn't.
25 Q. And if you gave an answer that would appear to be
89
1 contrary to that, how do you explain that?
2 A. I don't think I have given one contrary to it. I
3 didn't mean to.
4 Q. So, basically, you felt that your answers were
5 truthful?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. And you had no intent to mislead anybody or hide
8 any facts from the Court or from any other person asking
9 any questions of you?
10 A. Never, no.
11 Q. Based on that, is there anything in Exhibit Number
12 32 that you don't believe to be a truthful response to the
13 questions that were posed to you that day, May 24, 1999?
14 A. That's true.
15 Q. Now, you had your deposition taken recently on
16 April 20th of 2002; is that correct?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And Mr. Rosen focused on Exhibit 61 as it relates
19 to that date.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Mr. Rosen first drew your attention, I believe, or
22 at some point during his questioning asked you to look at
23 Page 311 about asking for an accounting. And I believe
24 it's on Line 7.
25 And the question is, "When did you last receive
90
1 an accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of
2 the Estate?"
3 Now, my prior question to you is, did you
4 intend to give an answer that was anything less than
5 truthful about the designation of the particular funds that
6 were given to Mr. Dandar --
7 A. I did not.
8 Q. -- by Mr. Minton?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or any other party?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting?
13 A. No, I have not.
14 Q. Have you ever felt the need to ask Mr. Dandar for
15 an accounting?
16 A. No, I haven't.
17 Q. Has he ever done anything to give you any reason
18 to believe that he's been less than honest and honorable in
19 the way that he's used whatever monies were given to him
20 from any source related to the wrongful death litigation?
21 A. Never.
22 Q. I draw your attention to the question and answer
23 on Page 344 that Mr. Rosen focused on. And same question
24 is, "All right. How many times did you consent to
25 Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
91
1 A. I'm sorry. What page?
2 Q. Page 344.
3 A. Oh, okay.
4 Q. On Line 6 it says, "All right. How many times did
5 you consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?"
6 And your answer was, "Anytime he wanted to. I
7 don't know how many times. Anytime he wanted to."
8 A. That's true.
9 Q. Was there anything that was intended to mislead
10 anybody asking that question about whether this money was
11 anything other than a loan from Mr. Dandar?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. On Page 345, the next page, Mr. Rosen
14 drew your attention to Line 3 where the question was, "What
15 did you think you were consenting to?"
16 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from
17 Mr. Minton."
18 Was there anything in that answer that was
19 inconsistent with your belief that these monies were loans
20 to Mr. Dandar for his use?
21 A. No, not at all.
22 Q. And you trusted him to use these in the wrongful
23 death case.
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. On Page 347, Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line
92
1 4. And I believe the question is, "Now you heard yesterday
2 about a $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of
3 2000. Do you remember that?"
4 Your answer was, "The $500,000, yes."
5 Question, "Yeah. Did you know about the
6 $500,000 --"
7 Your answer was, "Yes."
8 "-- check when it came in?"
9 Answer, "Yes."
10 Question, "How did you know about that?"
11 "He said he didn't know who it was from."
12 Question, "But that was for the funding of the
13 Estate too, right?"
14 Your answer was right.
15 Again, is there anything in your response to
16 that answer that in any way deviates from your assumption
17 that the monies coming from Mr. Minton or any source were
18 loans to Mr. Dandar for his use in the wrongful death case?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Now, this check for $500,000 --
21 MR. LIROT: Again, I believe, Judge, we've
22 gotten into this. I don't want to have this construed as
23 any waiver of privilege other than for this limited
24 situation here.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
93
1 Q. Did you become aware that Mr. Dandar had received
2 a check for $500,000 in, I believe it was, May of 2000?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was any information given to you that that
5 check came from Robert Minton out of any of his funds?
6 A. I believe Ken said he didn't know who it came
7 from; Mr. Minton gave it to him, but he didn't know who it
8 came from, if I'm not mistaken.
9 Q. Okay. In your experience with the wrongful death
10 case, have there been other instances where monies were
11 donated by anonymous sources? Are you aware of any of
12 those instances?
13 A. To the Estate?
14 Q. To either the Estate or Mr. Dandar or anybody.
15 Are you aware of any anonymous funds coming in
16 for use in the wrongful death case?
17 A. Not really. I read on the internet where there
18 was some $600,000 that went to the Trust that was
19 anonymous, but I don't know anything about it.
20 Q. So besides this $500,000 check, it's not uncommon
21 for there to have been anonymous funds in some way involved
22 in these actions?
23 MR. ROSEN: Objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. LIROT:
94
1 Q. On Page 348 Mr. Rosen drew your attention to Line
2 1. Again, the question was, "So you knew that money came
3 in for the litigation of this case and the Estate?"
4 The answer was right.
5 As we sit here today, is there anything that
6 you meant to be untruthful or not respond to what you
7 understood and assumed to be loans to Mr. Dandar in
8 response to that question?
9 A. Not at all, no.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Rosen also focused on Page 354 where he
11 asked you about a videotape apparently thanking Mr. Minton.
12 Do you recall ever thanking Mr. Minton for monies donated
13 to the Estate?
14 A. I have thanked him many times, every time I would
15 see him or have any contact with him for giving money, but
16 I don't remember how I stated it, whether it was the Estate
17 or Ken or to us or whatever. I cannot remember.
18 Q. Would any gratitude that you showed Mr. Minton
19 either on tape or off tape either change your belief that
20 the monies coming from Mr. Minton were donations or loans
21 to Mr. Dandar for use in this case?
22 A. Any different? No, the same.
23 Q. Now, on Page 439 of this deposition excerpt in
24 Exhibit 61, I believe you've explained this, but I want to
25 expand on Line 19, there's a question, "Okay. It's your
95
1 testimony that you knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar
2 had gotten from Mr. Minton in May of 2000, correct?"
3 And your answer was right.
4 Did that answer mean to indicate that you knew
5 that the money came from Mr. Minton or that Mr. Minton had
6 delivered the check to Mr. Dandar?
7 A. That Mr. Minton had delivered the check to him.
8 Q. Is there anything in this answer that deviates
9 from your understanding that that $500,000 came from a
10 source other than Mr. Minton?
11 A. Not in this statement it isn't, no.
12 Q. Do you believe anything, in this deposition or any
13 time, that that $500,000 had come from Mr. Minton, from one
14 of his personal accounts?
15 A. Well, it didn't come from a personal account. It
16 came from another different from what he had been giving.
17 Q. On Page 463, Mr. Rosen asked you and on Line 5 it
18 says, "It is your understanding the money that Robert
19 Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken Dandar, your
20 attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the P.A."
21 And your answer was yes.
22 And the question was, "Did he give any money
23 over to the Estate?"
24 I'm sorry. I misspoke.
25 "Did he give any money ever to the Estate?"
96
1 And your answer was no.
2 Is that your actual understanding of all of
3 these questions, basically, that have asked you about these
4 monies?
5 A. That's what I've said. That's the way I felt,
6 that it was all given to Ken all along.
7 Q. Now on Page 469 you were asked a question on Line
8 19, and the question was, "You became aware, through a
9 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000
10 in March of 2002?"
11 Is that correct?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And your answer was yes.
14 Now, in March of 2002, was it your
15 understanding that Mr. Minton had indicated prior to that
16 time that he was no longer going to provide any funds
17 whatsoever to Mr. Dandar or anybody else for use in
18 connection with the wrongful death case?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And you're aware of that?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. So do you have any reason to believe that this
23 money came from Mr. Minton?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Is there anything in what we've gone over from
97
1 your deposition -- I know you haven't had a chance to read
2 it -- but in Exhibit 61, is there anything in here that was
3 an intentional attempt on your part to be anything less
4 than truthful and honest in the questions posed to you?
5 A. No, but I have not gone over all of it.
6 Q. Now, at some point you signed a retainer agreement
7 with Mr. Dandar's office. Is that correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. I believe Mr. Rosen at the last hearing --
10 MR. LIROT: May I approach, Judge?
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 BY MR. LIROT:
13 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to show you what's been
14 marked as Exhibit 52. This is the retainer agreement that
15 Mr. Rosen had talked to Mr. Dandar about.
16 I'm going to ask you if you recognize that
17 particular document.
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And what do you understand that document to be, in
20 simple terms?
21 A. Well, it's a -- it's a retainer agreement, but
22 it's just a formal opinion...
23 Q. Do you recall at your deposition questions being
24 posed to you about who is responsible for the costs in the
25 wrongful death suit?
98
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you recall that that document makes it
3 appear that you're responsible for those costs?
4 A. That's what it says here, but I'm not.
5 Q. Did you subsequently come to another agreement
6 with Mr. Dandar relative to the costs in the wrongful death
7 suit?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. And what do you understand that agreement to be?
10 MR. ROSEN: Objection, no foundation, best
11 evidence. We're now going to orally undermine
12 or contradict the terms of a written retainer
13 agreement.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can approach the
16 witness.
17 BY MR. LIROT:
18 Q. I'm going to hand you a letter on Dandar & Dandar
19 letterhead dated February 10th, 1997 and ask you if you
20 recognize that letter.
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Does that letter basically shift the
23 responsibility for costs on the wrongful death case to
24 Mr. Dandar?
25 MR. ROSEN: Objection.
99
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does.
2 THE COURT: I cautioned Mr. Rosen about
3 that; I'm going to caution you about that.
4 When you hear an objection, just shut up, okay?
5 What is it, Mr. Rosen?
6 MR. ROSEN: This document was not produced
7 in discovery. It was covered in the notice to
8 produce, copies of all transmittal letters,
9 copies of correspondence, number one.
10 Number two, if Counsel is asking this
11 witness to give a legal opinion as to whether
12 this letter somehow supersedes or replaces the
13 -written retainer agreement, that's an improper
14 question. That is a pure issue of law.
15 And if Counsel will refrain from asking
16 that question, I don't have any objection to
17 this letter going in, despite that it was not
18 given to us in discovery or notice to produce.
19 Can we have it marked as a defendant's
20 exhibit?
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22 MR. LIROT: I believe that would be number
23 2, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Have you got a copy or
25 do you have the original or what do you want to
100
1 do?
2 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, Judge. I
3 have a copy of the February 10th, 1997 letter
4 from Dandar & Dandar to Ann Carlson and Dell
5 Liebreich.
6 BY MR. LIROT:
7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, has Mr. Dandar ever asked you or
8 instructed you to lie at any deposition or any court
9 proceeding or in any way told you to say anything that
10 wasn't true, ever?
11 A. Never, ever.
12 Q. Have you ever intentionally lied or said anything
13 at any deposition or any court proceeding that you didn't
14 feel was the absolute truth?
15 A. That is true. I have not.
16 Q. Have you ever had any indication from any source
17 that Mr. Dandar in any way was being less than honorable in
18 his use of funds that he obtained from Mr. Minton or any
19 other source in dispatching his responsibilities in the
20 wrongful death case?
21 A. No.
22 MR. LIROT: I have no further questions.
23 MR. ROSEN: Just a couple, Your Honor.
24 BY MR. ROSEN:
25 Q. Ms. Liebreich, I've put in front of you what's
101
1 been marked as Exhibit 33A.
2 This is a deposition of yours -- another
3 portion of your deposition of ten days ago.
4 And I direct your attention to Page 378.
5 At that point you were being questioned about
6 Exhibit 33, the very affidavit we went over a few moments
7 ago.
8 And you were asked, "Who wrote this affidavit?"
9 Answer, "I asked Ken to write it, I'm sure."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. We discussed it, yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, open Exhibit 33. I just want to make
13 sure you have your affidavit in mind. This is the one that
14 says there's no binding agreement.
15 Why did you ask Ken to write it? For what
16 purpose?
17 A. Well, if I remember correctly, we had discussed
18 that Scientology was badgering everybody about this, and so
19 he says, well, I'm going to write a letter, and I said
20 that's great.
21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object. This is all
22 privileged.
23 THE COURT: I think she waived the
24 privilege when she testified about it in this
25 deposition.
102
1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can look at the
2 deposition, I think Judge Beach might have
3 imposed some limitation on her response.
4 MR. ROSEN: Do you have a copy of it,
5 Counsel? I'm sorry. Do you not have a copy,
6 Counsel? I will get you a copy, Exhibit 33A.
7 MR. LIROT: 33A? I don't have a 33A.
8 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry. I will get you a
9 copy. You can have my copy.
10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would renew my
11 objection based on the language. I think the
12 question as posed -- and I hate to make a
13 speaking objection, but I can't do it any other
14 way than this:
15 Question, "So you say in this affidavit
16 you didn't enter into a binding agreement with
17 Robert Minton nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor
18 anyone else as to any disposition of any funds
19 obtained by the Estate of Lisa McPherson in the
20 wrongful death action pending against the
21 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs
22 advanced by Mr. Minton to defray costs in the
23 litigation, right?"
24 Answer, "Right."
25 That's the extent. All she's doing is
103
1 testifying as to what the affidavit says.
2 THE COURT: That's all well and good, but
3 the question before that is who wrote this
4 affidavit, and the answer was, "I asked Ken to
5 write it, I'm sure."
6 So in terms of that particular event, it
7 seems to me she's waived any privilege
8 BY MR. ROSEN:
9 Q. Back to my question.
10 A. What was your question?
11 Q. Okay. I will repeat it. Why did you ask Ken to
12 write that affidavit, Exhibit 33?
13 A. We discussed that they were being harassed so
14 much, Bob and everybody, about them having -- running the
15 lawsuit and everything, so that was the reason.
16 Q. And so when you discussed it, the conclusion that
17 you reached was if we file an affidavit in court that says
18 there's, quote, no binding agreement, then that would stop
19 discovery?
20 MR. LIROT: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what you're
22 talking about.
23 MR. LIROT: Calls for a legal conclusion.
24 And that is privileged.
25 BY MR. ROSEN:
104
1 Q. Did you understand that this affidavit was to be
2 filed in court in support of a motion to stop discovery
3 into this agreement between you and Minton? Do you
4 understand that was the purpose of this?
5 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 BY MR. ROSEN:
8 Q. When you discussed this with Mr. Dandar, is he the
9 one who drafted the language of this affidavit or did you?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. You don't know? Okay.
12 Now, when we go to Exhibit 33, the affidavit,
13 that's the one where you say there's no binding agreement.
14 And you've explained to us that what you meant was the
15 agreement was verbal; it wasn't in writing. Do you recall
16 that testimony about 15 minutes ago?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Okay. Let me read to you from Page 461 of your
19 deposition of ten days ago.
20 Question --
21 A. What exhibit is that?
22 Q. It's not an exhibit, ma'am. It's going to be.
23 I'm reading from Page 461 of your deposition of
24 ten days ago, April 20th, 2002, taken before Judge Beach
25 starting at Line 6.
105
1 Question, "Did you ever have any oral or
2 written agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any
3 money from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him
4 or his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?"
5 Answer, "No way."
6 Was that answer true?
7 A. We've never had any agreement, other than orally.
8 Q. Ma'am, try it one more time.
9 Did you ever have any oral or written
10 agreement? Do you understand the word oral is a synonym
11 for verbal?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is it true that you never had any oral agreement
14 with Mr. Minton about the disposition of the proceeds? Is
15 that right?
16 A. Not an agreement. We've never had an agreement.
17 We just discussed what we might like to do. We never
18 really had any agreement.
19 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, the transcript -- the
20 excerpts of the transcript of the deposition of August
21 20th, 2002 are already before you as Exhibit 61. I would
22 ask that Page 461 of that, which I will hand up, be made
23 part of Exhibit 61.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: I don't have a 461.
106
1 BY MR. ROSEN:
2 Q. Okay. Let's turn to your statement in response to
3 your Counsel's question -- your counsel asked you, Have you
4 ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting?
5 And you said no. Do you remember that?
6 A. I don't have to.
7 Q. Okay. So let me try another question. Do you
8 remember saying in response to your Counsel's question that
9 you've never asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting? Yes or
10 no?
11 A. Do I remember that? Yes.
12 Q. Now, ma'am, we have -- I don't think it's in
13 dispute that a total of $2,050,000 has passed to
14 Mr. Dandar.
15 Do you have any idea if -- have you ever asked
16 your Counsel or has he said anything on the subject of how
17 much of that money has been spent for expenses in the
18 wrongful death case?
19 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered.
20 THE COURT: Overruled.
21 MR. LIROT: I think it's also privileged,
22 Judge.
23 MR. ROSEN: Not anymore.
24 MR. LIROT: This deals with the Second
25 District Court of Appeals orders well.
107
1 THE COURT: Explain that to me.
2 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, this is talking
3 about the amount of monies spent on certain
4 issues involved in this case, and I think that
5 the total sum is still at issue, so I don't
6 think that they should be able to delve into
7 this area.
8 Clearly, the Second District Court of
9 Appeals ruling, as I understand it, the motion
10 for rehearing on rehearing was denied just the
11 other day for the two orders that we referred
12 to at the last hearing.
13 MR. ROSEN: We went over this last time.
14 The orders denied the discovery on the grounds
15 that the information was not relevant in the
16 wrongful death case. There is no privilege,
17 number one.
18 And number two, Counsel just opened the
19 door by asking -- if I didn't have grounds
20 before, I had it when Counsel asked the witness
21 if she ever asked Mr. Dandar for an accounting.
22 THE COURT: Yeah. I will overrule the
23 objection.
24 MR. ROSEN: Can you answer my question?
25 THE WITNESS: What's the question again?
108
1 MR. ROSEN: May I ask the court reporter
2 to read back?
3 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Now,
4 ma'am, I don't think it's in dispute that a
5 total of $2,050,000 has passed to Mr. Dandar.
6 "Do you have any idea, have you ever asked
7 your Counsel or has he said anything on the
8 subject of how much of that money has been
9 spent for expenses in the wrongful death case?"
10 THE WITNESS: Have I ever asked him? No.
11 BY MR. ROSEN:
12 Q. Did he ever say anything to indicate how much?
13 A. He tells me when he's running low.
14 Q. I can't hear you.
15 A. Yes, we have discussed it.
16 Q. He's told you the amounts that have been spent?
17 A. Not the exact amounts, I'm sure.
18 Q. Approximate amounts. Approximate amounts.
19 A. If I ask him, yes.
20 Q. And have you asked him?
21 A. I have, at different times.
22 Q. In fact, he told you at one point in September
23 of -- around September of 2001 that he was running out of
24 money; didn't he?
25 A. He probably did.
109
1 MR. LIROT: That's a privilege, objection.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. ROSEN: I'll withdraw the question
4 anyways.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. Exhibit 58.
7 A. You want me to look at Exhibit 58?
8 Q. Could you, please? It's before you in the folder.
9 A. That's not it. That's 61. I don't see a 58. I
10 have 57.
11 Q. Okay. I will give you my copy.
12 Okay. That's a posting you made to the
13 internet, right?
14 A. Yes, that's true.
15 Q. What's the date of it?
16 A. It looks like September 6, 2001.
17 Q. And it's a request for money; isn't it?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And the reason that you were requesting money
20 donations at that time to the Estate was because Mr. Dandar
21 had told you he was running out of money.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Now, after Mr. Dandar, as you say, told you a few
24 months later in March of 2002 that he had received
25 $250,000, you say he told you that, did he ever post
110
1 anything saying, oops, we don't need contributions; we just
2 got 250 grand, or words to that effect?
3 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged.
4 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry?
5 THE COURT: There's a privileged
6 objection.
7 MR. ROSEN: Privilege as to what she
8 posted on the internet?
9 MR. LIROT: It was my understanding about
10 Mr. Dandar's communications to her subsequent
11 to something that happened.
12 MR. ROSEN: She already answered that. I
13 believe my pending question is did she ever
14 post anything further to the internet saying we
15 got $250,000 --
16 THE COURT: If that was your question,
17 that's not privileged.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Answer my question, please.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Let's turn, finally, to Defendant's Exhibit
22 2, the February 10th, 1997 letter from Mr. --
23 A. What number?
24 THE COURT: 2.
25 MR. ROSEN: Defendant's Exhibit 2.
111
1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember seeing a 2.
2 MR. ROSEN: All right. Here's another
3 copy.
4 BY MR. ROSEN:
5 Q. This is a February 10th, 1997 letter from
6 Mr. Dandar to you and your sister, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And this letter answers some questions you had
9 about the retainer agreement, right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. It doesn't change your retainer agreement, does
12 it? It doesn't say the retainer agreement is cancelled;
13 does it?
14 A. I would say it speaks for itself.
15 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus you in on one part of
16 this, Paragraph 1. Mr. Dandar is explaining how proceeds
17 are divided. The attorney's fee is paid out of the gross
18 amount recovered -- it says from the Estate, but I assume
19 that means for the Estate.
20 So follow me, now, Ms. Liebreich.
21 If the recovery in the wrongful death case is,
22 let's say, 5 million. Then the 40 percent attorney's fees
23 comes off the top. That's what that says, right? You
24 understood it that way, right?
25 A. Yes.
112
1 Q. So we have a 5-million-dollar recovery.
2 Mr. Dandar gets 40 percent at 2 million dollars off the
3 top, right? Correct?
4 A. Whatever Mr. Dandar says.
5 Q. And continuing on, of the remaining 3 million,
6 then, the Estate pays the costs of the case. The Estate
7 pays the costs out of its 3 million dollars in my
8 hypothetical, right?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. So let's see if I get this right, now. Mr. Dandar
11 gets his personal loan for 2 million dollars from
12 Mr. Minton, spends some money on expenses for the Estate,
13 buys himself a million-dollar house. He doesn't pay
14 Mr. Minton back a nickel. Every cent that he borrowed, you
15 pay back, the Estate, right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You pay the costs.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Any further letters, while we're on the
20 subject since this was just produced to us today -- are
21 there any other letters, Ms. Liebreich, after February
22 10th, 1997 which change the retainer agreement that you
23 signed, explain it, amend it, anything like that? Or is
24 this a --
25 A. Mr. Dandar pays his bills.
113
1 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am. Are there any
2 other letters after February 10th, 1997, any other letters,
3 any other writings, which either explain the retainer
4 agreement or change it or supercede it or amend it?
5 Anything like that?
6 A. I don't remember any.
7 Q. Okay. So this is the last statement of Mr. Dandar
8 to you explaining his retainer agreement, right?
9 A. If there was anything, I don't remember seeing it.
10 If you will show me something, I will --
11 Q. No, no. I don't have it, ma'am. I'm not trying
12 to fool you. This is the last statement Mr. Dandar ever
13 made to you explaining the retainer agreement and how it
14 works, right? Yes or no.
15 A. Mr. Dandar pays the costs --
16 Q. Ma'am, can you listen to my question? Is this the
17 last communication -- this letter -- is it the last
18 communication from Mr. Dandar to you explaining how the
19 retainer agreement works? Yes or no.
20 A. I said I may have another letter. I don't
21 remember.
22 Q. Let me see if I can take a wild guess. If you
23 have that other letter, is it in your purse or is it in
24 Texas? Where is it, ma'am?
25 A. I don't know where it is.
114
1 Q. You're sure it's not in your purse?
2 A. I'm positive it's not in my purse.
3 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing else.
4 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. LIROT:
6 Q. Briefly cross, Judge.
7 Mr. Rosen showed you the statements he made in
8 your deposition of April 20th, 2002 and drew your attention
9 to Line 6 and said, "Did you ever have any oral or written
10 agreement with Robert Minton that the bulk of any money
11 from the death of Lisa McPherson would be paid to him or
12 his corporation, the Lisa McPherson Trust?"
13 And your answer was, "No way."
14 Was there ever any agreement to pay Mr. Minton
15 anything?
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. Was the best that you came up with some general
18 agreement that it would be nice to give the bulk of some
19 money, if it was ever realized, to an anti-cult
20 organization?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Was that ever decided to be Mr. Minton or anything
23 to do with Mr. Minton?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Now, this last letter that Mr. Rosen
115
1 looked at, does this letter allow Mr. Dandar to hire any
2 attorneys he thinks are appropriate to assist him on this
3 case?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LIROT: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Liebreich.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I move for the
7 introduction of Exhibit 58 and Defendant's
8 Exhibit 2 and the additional page of Exhibit 61
9 that I handed up.
10 THE COURT: All right. They'll be
11 received. Anything else to inquire of this
12 witness?
13 MR. ROSEN: No.
14 MR. LIROT: Not from us, Judge.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Let's take five
16 minutes.
17 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held and
18 this transcript continues to Volume II.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
116
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 )
6 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
7 I, Susan M. Valsecchi, Registered Professional
8 Reporter, in and for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of
9 Florida:
10 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was authorized to and
11 did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and
12 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
13 stenographic notes.
14 DATED this day of , 2002, at
15 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida.
16
17
18
19 Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
20 Registered Professional Reporter
117
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.,
Plaintiff
vs. CASE NO. 00-002750-CI-20
DELL LIEBREICH, individually and
as Personal Representative of
the Estate of Lisa McPherson,
ROBERT MINTON and THE LISA MCPHERSON
TRUST,
Defendants.
/
BEFORE: The Honorable W. Douglas Baird
Circuit Judge
PLACE: 315 Court Street
Clearwater, Florida
DATE: April 30, 2002
TIME: 11:30 a.m. - 5:40 p.m.
REPORTED BY: Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
Registered Professional Court Reporter
Sixth Judicial Circuit
-----------------------------------------
HEARING
(VOLUME II OF APRIL 30, 2002 HEARING)
-----------------------------------------
Pages 117 - 211 (Excluding Index.)
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
(727) 443-0992
118
1 APPEARANCES
2
3
4
5 F. WALLACE POPE, JR., ESQUIRE
6 SAMUEL D. ROSEN, ESQUIRE
7 JOHNSON, BLAKELY, POPE, BOKOR, RUPPEL & BURNS
8 Post Office Box 1368
9 Clearwater, Florida 33757
10 (727) 461-1818
11
12 Attorneys for Plaintiff
13
14
15
16 LUKE LIROT, ESQUIRE
17 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, P.A.
18 112 East Street, Suite B
19 Tampa, Florida 33602
20
21 Attorney for the Defendants
22
23
24
25
119
1 (Thereupon, this hearing continues directly
2 from Volume I.)
3
4 THE COURT: Call your next witness,
5 please.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, pursuant to the
7 bench conference earlier, we call Mr. Dandar.
8 THE BAILIFF: Face the Judge, raise your
9 right hand, be sworn in.
10 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to
11 the witness.)
12 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, in a word of
13 explanation, some of these you already have,
14 just for ease during the examination.
15 THEREUPON,
16 KENNAN DANDAR, called as a witness, having been
17 duly sworn, testified as follows:
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. ROSEN:
20 Q. Okay. Mr. Dandar -- wait a second -- okay. Let's
21 start with Exhibit 5 and 6. You will recall these
22 were -- you were examined on these the last time. These
23 are the two checks from the Swiss bank?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Okay. Now, let's look at Exhibit 58 and 59.
120
1 We've now obtained the backs of the checks, Mr. Dandar.
2 Are those your signatures on those two checks?
3 A. Mr. Rosen, how did you do that without a
4 deposition, Mr. Rosen?
5 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can this witness be
6 instructed that he's a witness and not Counsel?
7 THE COURT: You're a witness here, Mr. Dandar.
8 You need to answer the questions.
9 BY MR. ROSEN:
10 Q. Okay. Look at Exhibit 58A. Into what account was
11 this deposited?
12 A. A personal account.
13 Q. Where?
14 A. It's none of your business. I object. I assert a
15 privilege.
16 Q. Say again?
17 A. I'm asserting a privilege.
18 Q. What privilege?
19 A. My personal privacy privilege in the Second
20 District Court's two opinions.
21 MR. LIROT: That's probably my job to make that
22 objection, Judge. I will concur with what
23 Mr. Dandar said.
24 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, that's
25 unacceptable in a disqualification motion. The
121
1 witness has no privilege. There is a serious
2 charge here of, a, commingling of funds and, b,
3 of misappropriation.
4 If the witness chooses to assert a
5 privilege, I suggest this hearing is over.
6 This Court doesn't have any choice but to
7 disqualify him.
8 THE COURT: I will overrule the objection.
9 BY MR. ROSEN:
10 Q. Where was 58A deposited, Mr. Dandar?
11 A. I assert my privilege. They're personal accounts.
12 Q. You refuse to answer the question?
13 THE WITNESS: Judge, I need some guidance here.
14 I have a stay order in this case by the Second District. I
15 have two opinions by the Second District in the wrongful
16 death case. They are flagrantly violating both of those
17 orders and the stay order by these false charges, and I
18 request the right to appeal this.
19 THE COURT: Right to appeal what?
20 THE WITNESS: If you're making me answer
21 these questions, I respectfully request you
22 give me the right to file a petition of cert
23 with the Second DCA to bring this matter before
24 them, because I believe this is highly
25 invasive. This has nothing to do with this
122
1 case.
2 This has only to do with, all of these
3 questions so far, the wrongful death case.
4 This is my personal privacy, and they're
5 violating that.
6 I have neither violated an order of this
7 Court, nor have I a conflict of interest with
8 my client, which are the two grounds for
9 disqualification. And all this is is invasive
10 of these opinions.
11 THE COURT: There are other grounds for
12 disqualification besides just a conflict of
13 interest or the violation of court orders.
14 THE WITNESS: That's why I'm asking for
15 guidance from the Court. If you're making me
16 answer these questions, I respectfully request
17 you give me the permission to appeal to the
18 Second District Court of Appeals.
19 Before, Judge, you previously ruled and
20 sustained objections on this type of
21 questioning by Mr. Rosen the last time we were
22 here.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, what do you contend
24 the relevance of this information is for the
25 record?
123
1 MR. ROSEN: One of the specific charges
2 involving the money is, a, commingling of
3 personal and client funds and, b,
4 misappropriation.
5 If you accept the evidence that has been
6 presented to you that the Minton money was
7 provided to Mr. Dandar, not as a personal loan
8 to Mr. Dandar but was provided for the use and
9 benefit of the Estate to defer the expenses in
10 the wrongful death case, the allegation is that
11 Mr. Dandar misappropriated money for his own
12 personal use.
13 As you can see from the backs of these
14 checks, they were deposited with the Putnam
15 Fund. The Putnam Fund is a Massachusetts
16 mutual fund, Massachusetts-located mutual fund.
17 I intend to ask this witness what the title on
18 those accounts are.
19 This is blatant misappropriation of money
20 which we say, and the evidence as presented
21 shows, was money intended for the Estate.
22 If this attorney stole money,
23 misappropriated money intended for the estate,
24 that's grounds for disqualification and
25 disbarment.
124
1 THE COURT: His testimony regarding these
2 amounts previously were not that these amounts
3 were part of the personal loan from Mr. Minton?
4 MR. ROSEN: His testimony was that these
5 came from somebody named the fat man.
6 THE COURT: Right, but these were not a
7 personal loan from Mr. Minton?
8 MR. ROSEN: No, no. He said they were a
9 loan. If you remember, I asked him the
10 question, well, if these are also of the same
11 kind of loan, personal loan, as the money that
12 you admit came from Mr. Minton, how would you
13 pay it back if, according to your story, you
14 don't even know who it is?
15 And he said, well, I would ask Mr. Minton
16 who it was when it came time to paying it back.
17 And the question I put to him is what
18 happens if Mr. Minton died? How would you ever
19 pay back the money?
20 His prior testimony is this was a loan in
21 the same fashion as the Minton money. And that
22 is, it's a loan to him personally to be paid
23 back out of the proceeds of the wrongful death
24 case.
25 THE COURT: Well, then, how does the fact
125
1 that he put these monies into an account other
2 than the firm account contradict that
3 testimony?
4 MR. ROSEN: No. What it contradicts is as
5 follows: Mr. Minton's testimony is that this
6 is his money. Mr. Minton's testimony is that
7 this was part of the money that I gave to you,
8 entrusted to you to use for the benefit of the
9 Estate in the wrongful death case.
10 If you believe Mr. Minton's testimony and
11 Ms. Liebreich's testimony as we've gone over
12 the deposition today that this money was given
13 to Mr. Dandar by Mr. Minton for use by
14 Mr. Dandar for his client's use, for the use of
15 the Estate in the wrongful death case, and if
16 you believe that, and if you find these checks
17 were deposited into a personal account, a
18 mutual fund in Massachusetts, you would find
19 that this attorney has misappropriated money
20 that was entrusted to him for his client, and
21 that's disbarment.
22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't even know that
23 Mr. Rosen has a standing to raise that
24 objection.
25 MR. ROSEN: Okay. It's disqualification.
126
1 Forget disbarment.
2 MR. LIROT: I don't even think that it
3 reaches the level for disqualification.
4 There's got to be some allegation that it's
5 been misappropriated.
6 There's been a lot of smoke here, but
7 there has not been one iota of testimony that
8 one dime of money went to coffee or houses in
9 North Carolina. There's just been all of this
10 innuendo.
11 We don't have any testimony showing that
12 one penny was misspent, regardless of what
13 account it was in.
14 If it goes into an interest-bearing
15 account and that money is dedicated for use in
16 the case -- this is, to me, a direct attempt to
17 circumvent the protection provided by the
18 Second District Court of Appeal opinion, Judge.
19 THE COURT: Well, that may be, but we're
20 not in that case; we're in this case. This is
21 a different case. And what is relevant in this
22 case may in some instances and in several
23 instances be different than what is relevant in
24 the other.
25 Part of this case is the claim of the
127
1 tortuous interference with a contractual
2 relationship, and these matters could be
3 relevant to those matters, whereas it would not
4 be relevant to the wrongful death case, so that
5 doesn't concern me so much.
6 However, I don't see that the backs of
7 these checks do anything but confirm what
8 Mr. Dandar has already testified to, which was
9 that these were personal loans to him, and
10 therefore he could use them for any purpose he
11 desired.
12 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, either you believe
13 Mr. Dandar's testimony that these were personal
14 loans to him, in which case he can deposit them
15 anyplace that he wants, or you believe the
16 testimony presented --
17 THE COURT: I know. That's right. I've
18 got to either believe Minton or I've got to
19 believe him, but these things don't contradict
20 anything he said.
21 MR. ROSEN: No, no. Your Honor, they show
22 something else.
23 At the end of this proceeding, the first
24 thing I think you're going to decide in your
25 own mind is whether you believe Mr. Minton and
128
1 Ms. Liebreich as to this money or Mr. Dandar.
2 If you find -- if you find that -- and
3 believe Mr. Minton -- that this money was not a
4 personal loan to Mr. Dandar, that this money
5 was entrusted to him for the use of his client,
6 the Estate, you would then have to find whether
7 or not that money was not put into a client
8 trust fund, whether it was misappropriated.
9 THE COURT: This is not going to become a
10 bar grievance proceeding. This is a motion for
11 disqualification.
12 And it is conceivable to me -- and I am
13 going to wait to see all of the evidence -- but
14 it is conceivable to me that there may be
15 violations of the canons of ethics that would
16 require discipline. Those are made only by the
17 bar grievance structure. They aren't made by
18 me.
19 MR. ROSEN: Except for one thing. I think
20 the case law is pretty clear that if you find a
21 violation -- that if a violation of the canons
22 of ethics is presented to you, that it's
23 automatic grounds for disqualification.
24 THE COURT: I don't agree with that. And
25 maybe you can enlighten me at the end of this
129
1 hearing as to automatic grounds, but I believe
2 that there has to be more of a nexus between
3 the proper prosecution of the case and the
4 alleged violations.
5 MR. ROSEN: Okay.
6 THE COURT: So I don't find this to be
7 relevant, and I don't want to --
8 MR. ROSEN: May I ask the question as to
9 the title of the account in which this was
10 deposited into? Would Your Honor be so
11 inclined as to --
12 THE COURT: No.
13 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will move on, Your
14 Honor.
15 BY MR. ROSEN:
16 Q. Mr. Dandar, turn to Exhibit 42, please.
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. This is Mr. Minton's affidavit of December 2000?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. I went over this with you last time; and your
21 testimony was, number one, you didn't prepare it, right?
22 A. That's still correct.
23 Q. Number two, you didn't cause it to be prepared; in
24 other words, you didn't ask anybody to prepare this?
25 A. That's still correct.
130
1 Q. Number three, you don't recall how you even got
2 it.
3 A. I do now.
4 Q. Oh, you remember now since your last testimony?
5 A. I went back to the file; that's right.
6 Q. Tell me how you got it?
7 A. Well, as I told you during the hearing last time,
8 if you had put this with what it was filed with, this was
9 hand-delivered to me --
10 Q. How about just answering my question.
11 A. This was hand-delivered to me by Mr. Merrett,
12 Mr. Minton's attorney, on a motion to strike Mr. Minton and
13 Stacey Brooks and Grady Ward and other members of the Lisa
14 McPherson Trust from the witness list of the Church of
15 Scientology so that they would quit harassing these people.
16 That's what this affidavit was for, and that's who prepared
17 it.
18 Q. Mr. Dandar, if I may again remind you that you're
19 a witness here. Please don't argue with me.
20 Do you have a document that has refreshed your
21 recollection as to how you received this affidavit? Yes or
22 no.
23 A. I do and so do you.
24 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, can I ask for an
25 instruction that this witness behave?
131
1 THE WITNESS: Am I misbehaving?
2 THE COURT: Well, that's a fairly broad
3 term, but, yeah, you're being argumentative.
4 All right? We're going to get through
5 this a lot faster -- and we're not going to get
6 through it fast at all, but we'll get through
7 it a lot faster if we forget the little aside
8 comments and just respond to the questions.
9 Anything that needs to be brought out your
10 attorney will bring out in his
11 cross-examination.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is attached to a
13 motion to strike. It's filed in the wrongful
14 death case. We all have a copy of this. And
15 I'm sure hopefully I brought the copy of the
16 motion to strike with me.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. My question, sir, is: Is there a document that
19 reminds you that you were handed this by Mr. Merrett? Yes
20 or no.
21 A. Yes, it's the motion to strike.
22 Q. Can I please have that document?
23 A. If it's here, you can have it.
24 MR. ROSEN: Counsel?
25 MR. LIROT: I will do my best.
132
1 THE WITNESS: Look in my file next to my
2 computer on the right-hand side. It's the
3 original copy out of the file. If not, it's
4 not here, but it's part of the public record.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. While your Counsel is looking for that, let me ask
7 you one last question on your testimony last time. Last
8 time you said that you don't recall if you even filed this
9 document.
10 A. No. It's definitely filed.
11 Q. Did you file it?
12 A. I believe I filed it attached to a motion to
13 strike; that's correct.
14 Q. A moment ago you said that Mr. Merrett made a
15 motion to strike.
16 A. No. Mr. Merrett hand-delivered this affidavit to
17 my office.
18 Q. Okay. Can I ask you to turn to Exhibit 69.
19 THE WITNESS: Judge, let me know if I'm
20 speaking too loudly because last time I wasn't speaking
21 loud enough.
22 THE COURT: I will.
23 BY MR. ROSEN:
24 Q. Do you have Exhibit 69?
25 A. Yes, I do.
133
1 Q. This is a notice of filing affidavit in support of
2 Plaintiff's motion -- not Mr. Merrett's
3 motion -- Plaintiff's motion to strike witnesses from
4 Defendant's witness list. Is that right?
5 A. That's exactly what I said.
6 Q. Yes or no. Is that right?
7 A. That's exactly what I said.
8 Q. Do you know something? If you want to keep
9 arguing with me, I can argue with you all day long. We're
10 not going to get anywhere. All right? How about answering
11 my question, sir?
12 A. That's an affirmative answer. Yes.
13 Q. And the second page of that bears your signature.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you filed this motion, this notice of filing
16 affidavit, and with it you filed that affidavit of
17 Mr. Minton, Exhibit 42. You filed it with the court,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Merrett didn't file it; you filed it.
21 A. I never said he filed it. I said he
22 hand-delivered the affidavit to my office.
23 Q. Out of the clear blue sky, Mr. Dandar, just one
24 day Mr. Merrett showed up at your office with this
25 affidavit, huh?
134
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ask him for it?
3 A. I knew he was coming.
4 Q. Sir, did you have any discussion with Mr. Merrett
5 before he happened to show up in your office one day with
6 this affidavit?
7 A. I believe I did.
8 Q. Did you ask him to get this affidavit?
9 A. I believe he told me he was bringing it over.
10 Q. And you didn't know anything about this affidavit
11 before he had it -- according to you -- he had it prepared
12 and it was signed by Mr. Minton and he delivered it to you?
13 A. I'm sure I knew about it.
14 Q. And you discussed and you asked him to prepare it,
15 right?
16 A. He said he had prepared it, and he told me about
17 it, and he brought it over and I filed it.
18 Q. The affidavit was prepared to support a motion
19 that you made.
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. So let me see if I understand this. You made a
22 motion to strike, among other people, Mr. Minton from
23 Flag's witness list, right? You made that motion as the
24 Plaintiff, right?
25 A. That's right, one of many.
135
1 Q. And beneficially, somehow, coincidentally, just
2 when you needed some support for that motion, in walks
3 Mr. Merrett to your office from his office in Jacksonville,
4 Florida and hands you an affidavit, right?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Do you remember being in the courtroom and
7 hearing Mr. Minton's testimony to the effect that towards
8 the end of the year 2000 you told him that we need to
9 start, quote, backtracking, closed quote, on public
10 statements made regarding the agreement to contribute the
11 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? Do you
12 remember hearing that?
13 A. I heard that.
14 Q. And that's a complete lie, right?
15 A. As a result of your extortion of Mr. Minton,
16 that's correct.
17 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I move to strike this.
18 My next application is going to be for an order of
19 contempt. This witness is doing this purposely.
20 THE COURT: You know better, Mr. Dandar.
21 THE WITNESS: Judge, I have to answer what
22 I know.
23 THE COURT: Well, you have to answer the
24 questions. You don't have to embellish on
25 them. This isn't a game. All right? Just
136
1 listen to the questions, answer the questions
2 and we'll get through this. Proceed.
3 THE WITNESS: That's an incorrect
4 statement of Mr. Minton.
5 BY MR. ROSEN:
6 Q. The first time that Mr. Minton made a public
7 statement about this supposed agreement, this agreement for
8 the Estate to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of the
9 wrongful death case to an anti-cult group, was in 1997,
10 right?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Look at Exhibit 67. It's a transcript of the
13 radio program in which Mr. Minton makes that statement,
14 announces that the Estate has agreed to donate the bulk of
15 the proceeds. You never saw this before, Mr. Dandar?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Never heard about this?
18 A. Oh, I may have heard about it because I think I
19 had some discussions about it.
20 Q. About the time of this event in December of '97?
21 A. This was right after the first vigil in December
22 of '97.
23 Q. Sir, listen to me. At the time of the event,
24 approximately December of '97? Yes or no.
25 A. What's the event?
137
1 Q. The date, December 9th, 1997.
2 A. Oh, you're talking about the date of the document,
3 Exhibit 67?
4 Q. Yeah.
5 A. No. I'm not sure. Most likely, common sense,
6 probably, yes, after this.
7 Q. Let's see if I understand this, then. Mr. Minton
8 made a statement in December of 1997 to the effect and
9 substance that the Estate had agreed to donate the bulk of
10 the proceeds from the wrongful death case to an anti-cult
11 group. That's number one.
12 A. Can you point that out to me? Where is it on
13 this?
14 Q. You don't remember this?
15 A. There's 22 pages. I don't know where it is. I
16 would like to see it.
17 Q. Mr. Dandar, let me go beyond this for a moment.
18 When was the first time that you learned that Mr. Minton
19 had made any statement to the effect that the Estate had
20 agreed to donate the bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful
21 death case to an anti-cult group? When did you first learn
22 of that?
23 MR. LIROT: Assumes facts not in evidence.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember.
138
1 Just give me a little time here.
2 I believe that the first time my clients
3 got together and made a decision to donate the
4 bulk of the proceeds to an anti-cult,
5 non-profit corporation or group was during
6 their depositions in Dallas, Texas at dinner
7 with me present in 1999.
8 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike as
9 intentionally non-responsive.
10 BY MR. ROSEN:
11 Q. The question, again, is when did you first learn
12 that Mr. Minton made a statement to the effect that the
13 Estate had agreed to donate the bulk of the proceeds of the
14 wrongful death case to an anti-cult group?
15 THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
16 BY MR. ROSEN:
17 Q. Can you tell me what year it was?
18 A. I can't tell you what year it was.
19 Q. Sir, are you sitting here telling us today in the
20 face of Mr. Minton's testimony that he has made those
21 statements going back to December of 1997, that you don't
22 remember when they were first made?
23 A. I do not keep track of Mr. Minton's statements on
24 the radio or press or wherever. I do not keep track. So
25 if you'll give me something to help refresh my memory, I'll
139
1 be glad to do that.
2 Q. I'm going to do that, Mr. Dandar, but I want to
3 make sure we get your testimony before we refresh.
4 What is your best recollection of when it was
5 before December of 2000 when this affidavit was prepared
6 and you filed it in court to strike Minton from the witness
7 list, when was it before then that you heard that
8 Mr. Minton had made statements, in substance, that the
9 Estate had agreed to donate the substantial portion or the
10 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? When?
11 A. The answer is the same. I don't remember.
12 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that you just learned of
13 it in December of 2000 at the time that you obtained this
14 affidavit from Mr. Minton through his counsel and also
15 wrote the same affidavit for your own client?
16 A. No, that's not my --
17 Q. You learned about it before December 2000, right?
18 A. I just told you; it was in Dallas, Texas in 1999.
19 If you look at the date of the depositions of Dell
20 Liebreich which I believe were marked as exhibits and Ann
21 Carlson and Lee Skelton and Sam Davis, that was the dinner
22 when they finally all got together and made a decision
23 among themselves to do that. It did not involve Mr. Minton
24 or anything he was related to.
25 Q. So let me see if I understand your testimony. You
140
1 deny that you came aware, in or about 1997, that Mr. Minton
2 had made public statements announcing this agreement or
3 this stated intention of the Estate to contribute the bulk
4 of the proceeds to the -- from the wrongful death case.
5 You deny that, right?
6 A. I deny it unless you can show me something to the
7 contrary. I can't sit here and say, oh, yeah, I remember
8 this. I can't do it.
9 Q. Mr. Dandar, your answer is, if I can prove to you
10 that you're not telling the truth, then you'll admit it?
11 A. I can't remember when I first learned that
12 Mr. Minton made a statement like that.
13 Q. Okay. Why don't you open Exhibit 70, Mr. Dandar.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Let's turn to Page 64.
16 Question, Line 15, "Have you had any discussion
17 with Mr. Dandar as to how any recovery in this case would
18 be used?"
19 Answer, "Yes."
20 "What is that discussion?"
21 Answer -- this is Mr. Minton's
22 testimony -- "Well, I suggested to him after having heard
23 Mike Rinder particularly talk about Dell being a
24 money-grubbing woman, that I asked him if she needed money,
25 number one. He said, no, she's retired and she's fine.
141
1 "So I said, in order to get these
2 Scientologists off the case that everybody is in this for
3 the money, she ought to just agree to donate the bulk of
4 any money that she gets out of the case to a cult-awareness
5 organization to keep other Lisa McPhersons from happening.
6 That's it."
7 "Was this a dinner in Boston?"
8 "No, this was a lunch in Clearwater."
9 You were there for that testimony, right?
10 A. That has nothing to do with the public
11 announcement. Yeah, I was there.
12 Q. Oh, okay. All right. No public announcement.
13 When was the first time you heard Mr. Minton say -- public
14 announcement, deposition or otherwise -- that there was an
15 agreement with the Estate to donate the bulk of the
16 proceeds? What year, Mr. Dandar?
17 A. Well, this deposition --
18 Q. What year, Mr. Dandar?
19 A. Well, this deposition testimony is probably
20 correct, in 1998. That's probably correct. But that was a
21 private conversation with me and Mr. Minton that did not
22 involve the entire family.
23 Q. Mr. Dandar, you're not answering my question.
24 When was it that you first learned that Mr. Minton
25 said -- claimed an agreement for the Estate to donate the
142
1 bulk of the proceeds of the wrongful death case? What
2 year, Mr. Dandar?
3 A. Well, now, that's a different question, and my
4 answer is the same. I don't remember there being such a
5 time until December or until 1999 at the depositions of the
6 beneficiaries of the Fannie McPherson Estate.
7 Q. Mr. Dandar, you were present for this deposition;
8 were you not, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, you had an opportunity to
11 cross-examine Mr. Minton, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you ever say to Mr. Minton in words or
14 substance in this deposition or otherwise, by the way,
15 you're wrong; there isn't any agreement for the Estate to
16 contribute the bulk of the funds?
17 A. No, because --
18 Q. I didn't ask you because. I asked you yes or no.
19 Did you ever say that?
20 A. Of course not, because he didn't answer it that
21 way. Look at Line 14.
22 Q. You're telling us that the agreement was first
23 made in May of 1999. This deposition is January of 1998.
24 You still stick to your testimony, sir, that
25 the first time that any such agreement was made was at
143
1 dinner with you in May of 1999 in Dallas? Yes or no. Is
2 that your testimony?
3 A. That's right, because this deposition talks about
4 an idea without even conferring with the client.
5 Q. I didn't ask you about because. I asked you yes
6 or no, sir.
7 A. You're misleading. I have to straighten that out.
8 Q. No, no, you don't. You're a witness.
9 MR. LIROT: Objection. He has a right to
10 explain his answers.
11 THE COURT: He's not explaining it. He's
12 not even being responsive. So I would like for
13 him to respond to the question. If you need to
14 have him explain it, you can do that when you
15 get up.
16 THE WITNESS: I apologize to the Court.
17 That was not my intent.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Now, you sat in this courtroom today and heard as
20 we went over the May 1999 deposition testimony of Dell, of
21 Ann, her sister, and of Lee testifying to the fact that
22 there was an agreement to donate the bulk of the proceeds.
23 You heard that testimony, right?
24 A. That's true testimony.
25 Q. And you were sitting in those depositions, those
144
1 three depositions. You were defending them, right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. In May of '99, right, Mr. Dandar?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. At any time, did you correct any of those
6 depositions and say, no, it's not true?
7 A. No, because that was truthful testimony.
8 Q. You know what, sir, if you say because once more,
9 I'm going to ask for an order of summary contempt.
10 THE WITNESS: Judge, tell me if I'm doing
11 something wrong here. He's misleading.
12 THE COURT: I've told you three times. What
13 you've got to do is just answer his question.
14 You don't need to elaborate on it. You just
15 need to answer it. He didn't ask you why. He
16 just asked you: Yes? No? Did you? Didn't
17 you?
18 Answer the questions and we'll get through
19 this, okay? You'll have your opportunity to
20 explain anything you want to explain.
21 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to speed
22 this along, but all right. Go ahead,
23 Mr. Rosen. Sorry.
24 BY MR. ROSEN:
25 Q. So you were aware, at least in May of 1999, of
145
1 that testimony, having sat there.
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. Okay. What is it that caused you to then prepare
4 Exhibit 33, your client's affidavit of December of 2000,
5 saying that there's no binding agreement?
6 A. Because of the false allegations of the Church of
7 Scientology in the wrongful death case where they kept
8 saying there is an agreement with Minton from the
9 beneficiaries -- and that was a lie, and I had enough of it
10 and so did my clients and so did Mr. Minton, so did Stacey
11 Brooks -- and we said we've got to put an end to this
12 because Scientology is abusing the wrongful death
13 litigation by all of these lies.
14 Q. And the particular relief you wanted was to
15 convince the wrongful death court that this was not true
16 about any agreement, and therefore Mr. Minton's name should
17 be stricken from Flag's witness list, right?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Now, I want you to compare, put side by side the
20 affidavit you prepared that your client signed, Exhibit 33,
21 in December of 2000, with the affidavit that Mr. Minton
22 signed, Exhibit 42, and also within a week of each other.
23 Have you got them, Mr. Dandar?
24 A. I have both of them. Which paragraphs would you
25 like to look at?
146
1 Q. These affidavits are substantively the same in the
2 sense that the key statement is, "There is no agreement or
3 no binding agreement for the Estate to contribute the
4 monies, the proceeds of the wrongful death case," right?
5 They both have that statement.
6 A. No. They're all worded differently.
7 Q. I know. I said substantively, Mr. Dandar. Do you
8 understand what the word substantively means?
9 A. Not the way you're using it, no.
10 Q. Is the substance of each of the two affidavits the
11 same, namely that there is no agreement respecting the
12 proceeds?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you're telling me you didn't ask for
15 this affidavit, didn't know it was coming. Mr. Merrett
16 called you one day, said he had it, and it was just this
17 remarkable coincidence that within one week of each other
18 these two affidavits -- substantively the same -- are
19 prepared; is that right? It's a coincidence.
20 A. You're incorrect, Mr. Rosen.
21 Q. Can you explain to me how it is that the
22 coincidence of Mr. Merrett having prepared and then
23 delivered to you this affidavit of Mr. Minton within a week
24 of Ms. Liebreich's affidavit on the very same subject?
25 A. Do you want me to explain it?
147
1 Q. Yes, sir. Would you please explain it?
2 A. All right. There is no coincidence. As I
3 previously testified, Mr. Merrett and I had discussions
4 about this. And I prepared the affidavit for my clients,
5 and Mr. Merrett prepared the affidavits for his clients,
6 and I filed a motion to strike. There's no coincidence at
7 all.
8 Q. No coincidence. So you did ask and you did know
9 that Mr. Merrett was going to prepare this affidavit?
10 A. We had discussed it, yes.
11 Q. Okay. So it didn't come as a surprise to you when
12 he then gave it to you, right?
13 A. I never said it did; that's correct.
14 Q. Okay. Would you please turn to Exhibit 41? And
15 Exhibit 41 is your own affidavit which essentially says the
16 same thing.
17 A. Essentially, that's correct.
18 Q. No agreement.
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. So all of the sudden we have this flood of three
21 affidavits -- yours, your client's and Minton's -- coming
22 in all denying that an agreement existed, right?
23 A. No. I didn't see a flood.
24 Q. Huh?
25 A. I did not see a flood. It all was planned and
148
1 prearranged and coordinated between me and Mr. Merrett.
2 Q. Why, then, in December of 2000, rather than
3 December of '99, if there was no agreement, why wasn't it
4 denied earlier?
5 A. Because at this time -- let me make sure I've got
6 my dates right -- hold on -- wait a minute. What was the
7 date of the -- yeah, this is all wrong, Mr. Rosen.
8 My affidavit is dated 2001, Exhibit 41, and the
9 other affidavits which are Exhibit 42 are dated in December
10 of 2000. That's a whole year apart.
11 Q. Okay. Let's take the two in December of 2000.
12 Why all of the sudden affidavits in December of 2000 to
13 correct what you say is a misstatement that had existed for
14 some time before then?
15 A. The case had recently been transferred from
16 Hillsborough County over the summer of 2000 to Pinellas
17 County. Judge Quesada -- there was some discovery demands
18 going on.
19 Judge Quesada had changed the order of Judge
20 Moody, the prior judge in Tampa, and permitted broad
21 discovery, so this was -- a lot more abuse of discovery was
22 going on, and I wanted to put a stop to it because of the
23 false allegations by Scientology.
24 Q. Okay. Now, your position is that there was no
25 agreement, right? Go back to Exhibit 70, sir. I would
149
1 like to pursue this with you a bit further.
2 This is a deposition of Robert Minton, January
3 13th, 1998, almost two years before, Exhibit 70. We went
4 over this, sir.
5 A. Did we talk about that already?
6 Q. Huh?
7 A. I'm trying to find it. Here it is. All right.
8 Okay.
9 Q. I went over with you on Page 64 the discussion
10 with the family about how the funds would be used and going
11 to the top of 65 Minton's suggestion that to avoid the
12 money grubbing, that they ought to agree to donate this.
13 And you see we got down to about Line 6 or 7
14 and the question was, "Was this at dinner in Boston?"
15 "No, this was at this lunch in Clearwater."
16 So lunch between you and Mr. Minton in
17 Clearwater, right?
18 Line 11, question, "This is in December?"
19 Answer, "Right, this is December of 1997."
20 "And his response was what?" Question.
21 His -- meaning yours -- "Well, he says, 'I've
22 already had that idea, but I haven't discussed it with Dell
23 Liebreich yet."
24 Question, "Has he since told you after the
25 December lunch that he discussed it with Ms. Liebreich?"
150
1 Answer, "Yes."
2 "What did he say?"
3 Question.
4 "He says she agreed to do just that."
5 Question, "When did he tell you this?"
6 He meaning you, Mr. Dandar.
7 "I think the 5th of December."
8 According to that testimony, Mr. Minton has
9 testified under oath at a time when he was supporting you
10 financially that on the 5th of December you told him the
11 Estate had agreed; Dell had agreed.
12 Was he lying?
13 A. You have to watch how you're saying that. No.
14 Q. Was he lying or not?
15 A. No. It was an idea that Dell thought was a good
16 idea. There had been no discussion or agreement with the
17 family.
18 Q. Sir, "What did he say?"
19 Answer, "He says she agreed to do just that."
20 Line 20.
21 That's what you told Mr. Minton in December of
22 1997. You told him your one client, the personal
23 representative of the Estate, had agreed to donate the bulk
24 of the proceeds.
25 Isn't that what you told Mr. Minton, sir?
151
1 A. No. What I told Mr. Minton was Dell thought it
2 was a good idea.
3 Q. But Mr. Minton, who at that time was your
4 benefactor, testified not that it was a good idea, quote,
5 he, meaning you, said she agreed to do just that.
6 A. Well, to me that means the same thing.
7 Q. "She agreed to do just that," means she thought it
8 was a good idea, right?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. That's a synonym, right?
11 A. She was very excited about it.
12 Q. Uh-huh. Well, you sat there and listened to this.
13 So at least as of January of 1998, you were aware that
14 Mr. Minton had said -- indeed not public -- better -- under
15 oath in your presence -- that Dell Liebreich had agreed to
16 donate the bulk of the proceeds to an anti-cult group?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. You sat there and heard it?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And you're telling us that the first time that
21 this subject ever came up was a year and a half later in
22 dinner in May of 1999 in Dallas. Is that what you're
23 telling us?
24 A. I'm telling you that's the truth. That happened
25 with the family all together because Sam was from Mexico
152
1 and he doesn't get to Dallas often.
2 Q. Okay, Mr. Dandar. If that's your testimony,
3 that's your testimony.
4 A. I'm sorry. Is that a question?
5 Q. Okay. Let's go on. Mr. Dandar, would you go to
6 Exhibit 1, please.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. Exhibit 1 are the four checks. Do you see that?
9 A. There are four checks.
10 Q. They were marked last time.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. If you will turn to Exhibits 10, 13, 14, and 15.
13 These are the backs of the checks.
14 A. No, they're not.
15 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Not 15.
16 A. These were all the ones we produced in the
17 wrongful death case. Not all of them, but these are some
18 of them. Ten is a deposit slip.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go over -- you can hold those in
20 front of you, Mr. Dandar. I'm going to follow Exhibit 1.
21 The first check on Exhibit 1 is a $100,000 check on October
22 6th, 1997. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The back shows that that was deposited into your
25 client trust account, right?
153
1 A. And what number is the back?
2 Q. I'm sorry. You testified last time it was
3 deposited into your client trust account.
4 A. Well, that's likely.
5 Q. Say again?
6 A. That's likely, yes.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the second check, 8/27/99,
8 $250,000 to you. What account was that deposited into?
9 A. That was deposited into a Dandar & Dandar account.
10 Q. Dandar & Dandar operating account, right?
11 A. I don't think so. In fact, I would be positive
12 it's not an operating account.
13 Q. Huh?
14 A. I'm positive it's not an operating account.
15 Q. Sir, it's not a client trust account; is it?
16 A. Well, I don't know.
17 Q. Well, do I need to refresh your recollection with
18 your testimony from the last time that this check -- that
19 the back of it, which is Exhibit 13, is -- the deposit is
20 Dandar & Dandar, P.A., quote, for McPherson. You testified
21 it wasn't a client trust account.
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Okay. Now let's go to the third check. The third
24 check --
25 A. It is a Dandar & Dandar account.
154
1 Q. Right. The third check, $200,000, January 14th,
2 2000. What account was that deposited into, sir?
3 A. Well, that's a Dandar & Dandar account because
4 it's made payable to Dandar & Dandar.
5 Q. Not a client trust account, right?
6 A. It's not the trust account.
7 Q. Do you have more than one client trust account?
8 A. Well, these checks were deposited into
9 interest-bearing accounts.
10 Q. Sir, was this check deposited into a client trust
11 account? Yes or no.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. And now we come to the fourth check. And
14 that is 5/25/01, $250,000. That check was deposited into
15 your personal account, right?
16 A. That was made payable to me; that's correct.
17 Q. Deposited into your personal account.
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Okay. Now, the only check we see here going into
20 a client trust account is the very first one, the hundred
21 thousand dollars, right?
22 A. No. No, I can't say that. You're saying that's
23 the only one or just the first one you know about?
24 I misunderstood your question.
25 Q. The only one of the ones you've produced, the only
155
1 one of the checks and the deposit slips that you have
2 produced. There's only one going into a client trust
3 account, right, the first one?
4 A. No. The first one went into the Trust account of
5 Dandar & Dandar, P.A. There's only one such account.
6 Q. Client trust accounts where you put clients'
7 monies.
8 A. That's right. That was the first check.
9 Q. And that is the only check that was ever deposited
10 from Minton or from Switzerland -- it was the only check
11 ever deposited into a client trust account, correct?
12 A. Into the IOTA account, that's the only check.
13 That's right.
14 Q. Is there some other client account that you
15 deposit monies into?
16 A. Well, in this particular case, yes. These are
17 accounts of Dandar & Dandar. They said for McPherson.
18 Q. Is that a client trust account under the bar
19 rules?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. So how about if you stop fencing with me
22 and answer the question.
23 The only check that you ever got from
24 Mr. Minton or these Swiss banks that ever went into a
25 client trust account under the Florida Bar rules was the
156
1 first one, October of '97, right?
2 A. No, I can't answer that.
3 Q. Do you have any others?
4 A. Mr. Minton was very generous. I don't know if
5 I've put any other checks that he gave me into the firm's
6 IOTA trust account, other than the first one.
7 Q. Or the Swiss checks.
8 A. Well, those for sure were payable to me. They
9 didn't go into any trust account.
10 Q. Okay. So now let's see if I understand this. At
11 least on the records before us, only one check that you
12 ever got from Mr. Minton went into a client trust account,
13 the first one, October of '97, right?
14 A. That's correct, of the ones that you presented.
15 Q. And you were served with a notice to produce --
16 A. You're interrupting my answer.
17 Q. You answered that question. That's correct.
18 And you were served with a notice to produce at
19 this hearing last time documents showing the depositories
20 into which you deposited the other checks from Mr. Minton.
21 And you filed a written response, apart from
22 objections, saying that the documents do not exist. Do you
23 remember that?
24 A. That's correct. We objected to it.
25 Q. And then you answered -- without waiving the
157
1 objections, you answered further the documents do not
2 exist, right?
3 A. I think that was signed by my brother, but I can
4 tell you -- well, go ahead and ask your question.
5 Q. And then you told us that you don't have any
6 financial records because your father used to have your
7 records and he died, and now your mother has your
8 records -- excuse me -- your sister has your records.
9 Is this still your testimony, sir, you don't
10 have any records to show where the other checks, the ones
11 we don't have, were deposited? Is that still your
12 testimony under oath, Mr. Dandar?
13 A. My testimony hasn't changed. It's all the truth,
14 yes.
15 Q. Okay. We know that there are four checks here,
16 and we know that there are three or four missing because
17 the total was 1.3 million, right?
18 A. No, that's not true.
19 Q. How many personal checks did Mr. Minton write
20 addressed to either Dandar & Dandar or Ken Dandar?
21 A. I have no idea.
22 Q. Sir, the ones that are before you, Exhibit 1, the
23 only ones that were produced, are 250, 200, 250 and a
24 hundred. That's $800,000.
25 A. What exhibit is that?
158
1 Q. Exhibit 1.
2 A. That's because that was the court order that we
3 complied with.
4 Q. Sir, how about not making a speech. How about
5 listen for a question. Those checks total $800,000, right?
6 A. I take back what I just said. Some of these
7 checks were not pursuant to the court order. You obtained
8 them some other way.
9 Q. I don't care if you take back what you said. It
10 was irrelevant anyway.
11 A. What's your question? Sorry. There are more
12 checks than this. Was that your question?
13 Q. Yeah, there are.
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. And the total of these checks that were signed,
16 the checks on the personal accounts signed by Mr. Minton
17 and given to you, total 1.3 million, right?
18 A. No, that's not right.
19 Q. How much are they?
20 A. What point in time are you talking about?
21 Q. As of right now, forget the Swiss bank checks for
22 a moment and add up all of the checks that Mr. Minton gave
23 you that he signed, personal checks. How much does it add
24 up to?
25 A. I don't know. I assert the privilege and I assert
159
1 the stay order of the Second DCA in this case.
2 Q. What is the privilege, Mr. Dandar? Personal
3 privileges to money somebody else gave you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. A loan?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I ask that this witness
8 refuses to answer this question; disqualification is
9 automatic in the face of this. This cannot be tolerated.
10 An attorney charged with this conduct says I
11 have a privilege and then refuses to produce the documents
12 claiming his financial records don't exist?
13 THE WITNESS: You asked for records from Dell
14 Liebreich --
15 MR. ROSEN: I haven't asked you anything,
16 Mr. Dandar.
17 THE WITNESS: I thought you did.
18 MR. ROSEN: There's no question pending before
19 you, sir.
20 THE WITNESS: Judge, may I ask you a question
21 for guidance, please?
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain at all, unless
24 you tell me, how any of this has to do with your case on
25 tortuous interference and breach of contract concerning the
160
1 funding, the loans that I obtained in the wrongful death
2 case, and particularly in light of the two appellate
3 decisions and the stay order in this case that prevents
4 that type of discovery. And I'm just not sure.
5 THE COURT: Well, until I learn the
6 information, I don't know how they relate
7 either; but to the extent that there are
8 ethical violations or criminal violations that
9 may affect your representation in this case,
10 then they are relevant.
11 THE WITNESS: May I just request that
12 rather than tell my opponent in a wrongful
13 death case any of these answers, that I tell
14 you anything that you'd like to know in camera
15 concerning any of this money, any of the loans.
16 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, let me see if I
17 can go through this another way.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Mr. Minton testified that the total he gave you in
20 personal checks was 1.3 million. He testified to that in a
21 deposition and he testified to it in this courtroom. Are
22 you saying that that's wrong?
23 A. He didn't testify that way. He testified back in
24 May of 2000, I believe, in his deposition, that he believed
25 at that time the amount of money that he had given me,
161
1 either through Dandar & Dandar check or Ken Dandar, was in
2 the amount of 1.3 or $1,050,000. He wasn't sure.
3 Q. And he gave you another $250,000 in May of 2001, a
4 personal check?
5 A. A year later?
6 Q. Sir, did he give you a check in May of 2001 for
7 $250,000?
8 A. Well, that's what this document says. Yes, I
9 would have to agree.
10 Q. So that's a-million-50 and $250,000 comes to
11 a-million-three; doesn't it, Mr. Dandar?
12 A. As of 2001.
13 Q. Sir, you're an attorney. Do you think that this
14 is productive?
15 As of today, from the beginning of time to
16 today, isn't it correct that the total he gave you in
17 personal checks was 1.3 million?
18 A. I can't say. I don't know.
19 Q. What do you think it is?
20 A. I have no idea.
21 Q. And you haven't bothered to look?
22 A. I haven't bothered to add it up and look; that's
23 correct.
24 Q. Look at Exhibit 10 for a moment. Exhibit 10 comes
25 from your files. It's a copy of your deposit slip, right?
162
1 A. Well, let me find it. That's right.
2 Q. This is a deposit slip that if I walk into a bank
3 and make a deposit, I get a piece of the carbon copy slip,
4 right?
5 A. No. This is one that's printed with my firm's
6 name on it. It's not one you just pick up from a counter
7 at a bank.
8 Q. Did I say anything about picking it up from a
9 counter?
10 A. I believe you did.
11 Q. You know something, if you would just listen,
12 Mr. Dandar, and stop trying to confuse the issue.
13 This is a deposit slip which is a carbon-back
14 deposit slip. You give it to the bank with your deposit;
15 you get a copy for your records, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. This deposit was made on February 6th of 1998. Am
18 I reading it right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you have a copy of this, and you produced it
21 in discovery, right?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. So, Mr. Dandar, where are the other deposit slips
163
1 like this covering the remaining checks beyond Exhibit 1?
2 Where are they? Does your dead father have them or does
3 your sister have them?
4 THE WITNESS: You know, that is outrageous,
5 Judge. I wish you would stop this.
6 BY MR. ROSEN:
7 Q. Who has them, Mr. Dandar?
8 A. I refuse to answer your question.
9 Q. On what grounds?
10 A. You're being obnoxious. Don't bring up my dead
11 father.
12 THE COURT: All right. Hold it right here.
13 We're taking a short break here, okay? Take
14 five minutes.
15 (Thereupon, a brief recess was held.)
16 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I wish to
17 apologize to Mr. Dandar and to the Court for
18 the remark prior to the break.
19 I was intending to just ask Mr. Dandar if
20 he was continuing to adhere to his earlier
21 testimony respecting the location of his
22 financial records, and it came out in a way
23 which I regret, so I apologize.
24 THE COURT: All right. We're all adults
25 here, right?
164
1 MR. ROSEN: I think when it comes out
2 wrong, I should say so.
3 BY MR. ROSEN:
4 Q. Mr. Dandar, let me direct your attention back to
5 Exhibit 10, the deposit slip. I notice on the back of it
6 it's written R. Minton, a hundred thousand dollars.
7 A. On the back? On the front?
8 Q. Excuse me. Not on the back. On the deposit slip
9 is written R. Minton, a hundred thousand dollars?
10 A. Yeah, it's one of six centuries.
11 Q. And is it the practice, then for you to enumerate
12 including identifying where the check is from when you do a
13 deposit?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So if you would produce to us deposit slips for
16 the two Swiss bank checks, would we see Mr. Minton's name
17 on there or would we see the fat man?
18 A. You wouldn't see anything.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar, getting back to this, I want to
20 make sure we understand your view and your present
21 position.
22 You were served with a notice to produce asking
23 for the production of all of your bank records showing
24 where the various funds were deposited, and you filed a
25 written response beyond the objection saying the documents
165
1 do not exist.
2 When I asked you about it last time you told
3 me, oh, that was my brother; he did that. He signed it.
4 Now that you've had a chance to review that,
5 sir, is that statement correct, that the financial
6 documents showing the deposits of the other checks, they
7 don't exist? Is it true? Yes or no.
8 A. Yes, they do not exist as you phrased the
9 production and addressed it to Dell Liebreich. That's
10 correct.
11 Q. No, sir. We addressed it to you.
12 A. No, sir. It was addressed to Dell Liebreich
13 individually.
14 Q. Sir, we addressed a separate document request to
15 you asking for your records, financial records.
16 A. Well, then, produce it. Let me see it.
17 Q. Sir, let me ask you a question. Let's not fence
18 anymore.
19 A. I'm not fencing.
20 Q. Do your financial records showing the deposits of
21 all of the Minton checks that are not here and of the two
22 Swiss bank checks, do they exist?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Are they within your custody and control?
25 A. The personal ones are.
166
1 Q. How about the firm ones?
2 A. From way back then, I don't think so.
3 Q. How about from March of 2002?
4 A. Well, March of 2002 is a personal check, so that
5 is in my possession and control, and I objected to
6 producing those.
7 Q. Excuse me. You have the checks -- the deposit
8 slips like Exhibit 10, you still have them -- your firm
9 still has them -- for the other checks from Mr. Minton;
10 don't you?
11 A. I don't know. Well, if we have them, we only have
12 the old ones because they were produced in the wrongful
13 death case.
14 Q. Sir, you didn't hand over the originals. You
15 produced copies. Now, I will ask you one more time.
16 Of the missing personal checks Mr. Minton wrote
17 to you, do you or do you not have copies of the deposit
18 slips or records showing the deposit?
19 A. I don't understand what your question is. I don't
20 understand when you say missing personal checks. There's
21 none missing.
22 Q. Exhibit 1 has four checks totaling $800,000. Did
23 Mr. Minton write any checks to you beyond the four that are
24 here?
25 A. Of course he did.
167
1 Q. Thank you.
2 Now, I will try it again, Mr. Dandar. I will
3 keep at it until we get the answer.
4 With respect to any number of checks that
5 Mr. Minton wrote to you, personal checks, written to either
6 you, Ken Dandar or Dandar & Dandar, that are not part of
7 Exhibit 1, do the bank records showing those deposits exist
8 today?
9 A. The bank records showing the deposits to the -- to
10 my personal accounts for checks made personally to me do
11 exist, are in my custody and control.
12 Q. How about the ones made out to Dandar & Dandar?
13 Do they exist today, Mr. Dandar?
14 A. It all depends on the age of the document.
15 Q. Tell me what that -- how old does it have to be
16 that you threw it out?
17 A. I believe those documents only go back three
18 years.
19 Q. Okay. So you can produce documents -- sir, aren't
20 you aware that you're supposed to keep these documents
21 three years after you file a tax return?
22 A. That's what I meant.
23 Q. Okay. So if it's now April of 2002, that means
24 you would have all of those bank records for 2001, 2000 and
25 1999?
168
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And now I will ask you one more time. I don't
3 want to fight with you about the wording of notices to
4 produce and your view of what the word payment means.
5 Will you or will you not produce those records
6 tomorrow when we resume this hearing?
7 A. Number one, no. Number two, we're not resuming
8 this tomorrow, as far as I know. It was only set for
9 today.
10 Q. Sir, will you or will you not produce those
11 records whenever we resume before Judge Baird?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And what are the grounds?
16 A. The same grounds that the Second District Court of
17 Appeal granted the stay.
18 Q. That's not in this case.
19 A. It is in this case, sir.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. That's my grounds.
22 Q. And you're going to stand on those grounds that
23 you say is the privilege of the Second DCA and refuse to
24 disclose those documents, right?
25 A. The Second DCA stay order in this case.
169
1 Q. Sir, what about the deposit slips for the two
2 checks totaling $750,000; are they covered by the stay
3 order?
4 A. Well, yeah. That's all covered by the stay order.
5 That's all from Mr. Minton.
6 Q. Sir, according to your testimony, that's not
7 Mr. Minton's money.
8 A. It's loans from Mr. Minton to me as he testified
9 five times.
10 Q. Are you now agreeing that the 750 grand in the
11 Swiss bank checks were loans from Mr. Minton to you?
12 A. No, they were given to me, but they were from this
13 third party, just like the LMT third-party checks.
14 Q. Sir, sir, please don't volunteer stuff. I mean,
15 you're not being responsive.
16 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Ask your question. I will
17 just say yes or no.
18 Q. You're aware that the -- are you aware that the
19 stay order that you're referring to applies to money from
20 Mr. Minton?
21 A. Partially, yes.
22 Q. And it doesn't say that you cannot -- that you
23 have any protection or any excuse for not producing records
24 of monies loaned to you by the fat man, right?
25 A. It covers that as well.
170
1 Q. The stay order says the fat man too?
2 A. The stay order says stay of the information
3 requested in your interrogatories which includes third
4 parties other than Mr. Minton.
5 Q. Is there any other reason other than your view of
6 the stay order that you will not produce these?
7 A. Privilege.
8 Q. What privilege?
9 A. I have a personal privacy privilege.
10 Q. And does your firm have a personal privacy
11 privilege too?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. A law firm has a personal privacy privilege?
14 A. Under the Second District court opinions, we have
15 a ground not to produce --
16 Q. Does an inanimate being, entity, a law firm, a
17 professional association, does it have a privacy privilege
18 or not?
19 A. Yes, it does. It's a for-profit corporation. It
20 has a privacy privilege, as I understand it.
21 Q. All right, Mr. Dandar. Look, I want the record to
22 reflect you've been given every opportunity to produce
23 these documents. You don't want to. We will argue the
24 adverse inferences to be drawn.
25 Let's go to the next question, Exhibit 67. I
171
1 showed you this before. This is the transcript of the
2 radio broadcast of Mr. Minton announcing the deal with the
3 Estate, December 9th, 1997.
4 A. Exhibit number, please.
5 Q. Exhibit 67.
6 A. This is the one we covered already?
7 Q. Yeah. I just want to ask you to go back and ask
8 you a couple of questions about it.
9 A. All right. Go ahead.
10 Q. Did you ever see this before?
11 A. You asked that. I don't think I have.
12 Q. Mr. Dandar, I am prepared to put in the transcript
13 of the January 1998 deposition of Mr. Minton which you
14 attended, I'm prepared to put the counsel on the stand who
15 conducted that deposition, and I'm prepared to show you
16 that this very document was marked as an exhibit and you
17 were given a copy. Do you deny that?
18 A. No. If the record says that, that would be
19 correct. I can't sit here and tell you.
20 Q. In other words, if I can prove it to you, you
21 admit it. That's it. If I prove it to you, you admit it.
22 And if I can't prove it, you don't. Right? I will
23 withdraw that question.
24 Does that help refresh your memory, sir, as to
25 whether what I just told you about you being handed a copy
172
1 of this document marked as an exhibit in January 1998 in a
2 deposition of Mr. Minton taking by Sandy Weinberg? Does
3 that refresh your recollection at all?
4 A. Only if you show it to me, but I will take you at
5 your word that that's there. And if that's there, then I
6 have seen this.
7 Q. And you saw this document, then, in January of
8 1998 knowing that it was wrong that you had not told
9 Mr. Minton, as we read before, that Dell had agreed. You
10 did nothing, you said nothing for two years, right?
11 A. I can't answer the question because you have to
12 refer me to the page of this document so I can read it. I
13 can't guess.
14 Q. Okay. Let's move on.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Of the checks that we have, the four personal
17 checks and the two Swiss bank checks, it appears that only
18 the Swiss bank checks were deposited in repositories
19 outside the state of Florida.
20 Is that right?
21 A. No, that's not right.
22 Q. Did you deposit any of the four personal checks in
23 a depository outside the state of Florida?
24 A. No, I think the -- I think the May 2000 check is
25 the only one that went out of state.
173
1 Q. Look at the back of the March 2002 check, the Stan
2 Putnam fund.
3 A. Well, that's the same place, then.
4 Q. The two bank checks from Switzerland were
5 deposited into a mutual fund out of the state of Florida,
6 right?
7 A. No, I don't think so.
8 Q. Okay. Were any other --
9 A. Wait, wait. Just back up. Hold on. What two
10 checks are you talking about, the ones that are bank checks
11 with no one's name on it but mine?
12 Q. The two Swiss bank checks, Exhibits 5 and 6. You
13 deposited those out of state.
14 A. No, just one.
15 Q. The $500,000?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And in what state or depository was the $250,000
18 one deposited? Take a look at the back of the check.
19 A. I remember. It was here. It was in Florida.
20 Q. Take a look at the back of the check. You have
21 it.
22 A. What exhibit is it?
23 Q. 59.
24 A. Okay. Well, what does it say? I can't read that.
25 Q. You can't read the back of 59?
174
1 A. No. I challenge you to. I can't read the back of
2 that. And how do I know what check that came from?
3 Q. Look at 58A. Those are the two backs of the
4 checks. 59 and 58A are the two Swiss bank checks. You
5 can't read the words Putnam fund on them?
6 A. 58A, I cannot read that. That's the back of
7 something. That appears to be my signature. And 59 is the
8 back of something I cannot read. And I can't tell you the
9 way you did this what this is, the back of what; I have no
10 idea.
11 Q. All right. In any event, your testimony is that
12 the $500,000 check was deposited out of state, the 250 was
13 deposited in state.
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Okay. Mr. Dandar, look at Exhibit 15.
16 A. Is that something new?
17 Q. You have it there.
18 A. All right.
19 Q. That's another check, $250,000 made out to you
20 from Mr. Minton, a personal check. That check was
21 deposited into a Putnam Fund out of state, right?
22 A. That's probably the same account, if I can read
23 it.
24 Q. It is the same account, Putnam Fund of
25 Massachusetts.
175
1 A. Well, they have the better return. That's right.
2 If that's what it says, it says. I can't read it.
3 Q. And the title of that account is Kennan Dandar,
4 right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go on. As we said before, the only
7 check we have before us that was deposited into the client
8 trust account was the first one for a hundred grand,
9 October of '97.
10 A. The IOTA account; that's correct.
11 Q. After that, as money was required for expenses for
12 the wrongful death case, Mr. Dandar, what you did is you
13 transferred money from the Dandar & Dandar account to the
14 personal account into the client trust fund so you could
15 issue checks on the client trust fund as if the money was
16 sitting in that fund. That's what you did, right?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. Exhibit 15A is an example of what you did. It's a
19 whole series of checks, 15A, going right up to June 15,
20 2001, checks that you wrote for expenses in the wrongful
21 death case.
22 A. Seven checks? That's not a lot of checks. That's
23 just seven checks.
24 Q. I said a series of checks.
25 A. A series of seven checks. Okay.
176
1 Q. Right up to June 15th, 2001, right? And each one
2 of these is drawn on the Dandar & Dandar client trust
3 account.
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. In order to get -- in order to write these checks,
6 what you had to do was you had to transfer money that you
7 had deposited into either the Dandar & Dandar account or
8 your personal account into the client trust fund to write
9 these checks?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Why didn't you write the checks out of the Dandar
12 & Dandar account? Why go through a two-step process?
13 A. Because -- and I probably misspoke last time we
14 were here -- but the costs are really written out of the
15 trust account, so we have a better accounting. Then it
16 goes into our computer program as to all of the costs that
17 we expend on every case.
18 Q. Do you think you have a better accounting system
19 than the state of Florida has directed that attorneys
20 follow?
21 A. I think we follow the accounting system.
22 Q. Actually, Mr. Dandar, you could have done a
23 one-step in terms of just writing out a check from the
24 Dandar & Dandar account to Dr. Bandt or whoever that was,
25 but instead you went through a two-step process of first
177
1 transferring money from the Dandar & Dandar account to the
2 trust account to then write the check.
3 And the reason you did that was to conceal that
4 the money had not been in the trust account?
5 A. That's not --
6 MR. LIROT: Objection.
7 BY MR. ROSEN:
8 Q. Isn't that true?
9 MR. LIROT: Objection, no foundation.
10 THE COURT: Overruled.
11 THE WITNESS: No, that's not true at all.
12 BY MR. ROSEN:
13 Q. So let me see if I understand, if I have your
14 explanation.
15 The reason you went through this two-step
16 process of first transferring the money from the Dandar &
17 Dandar account into the trust account and then issuing the
18 checks from the trust account is because it, quote, made
19 your accounting easier, right?
20 A. Well, that's just one of the reasons.
21 Q. Oh, well, tell me all of the other reasons, sir.
22 A. Well, first of all, the money was all mine, number
23 one. Number two, the money in the other account was making
24 interest, so I would have more money and go back to
25 Mr. Minton less, and I was always trying to do that.
178
1 And then that money was written into a check to
2 be deposited into the trust account in lump sum. And those
3 checks, then, in the trust account were written
4 individually to experts and costs in the case.
5 Q. So let's see if I've got this right, Mr. Dandar.
6 You deposited personal funds belonging to you into a client
7 trust account, right?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. You commingled your personal funds in an account
10 that is a state bar IOLA client trust account, right?
11 A. False.
12 Q. It's not an IOLA trust account?
13 A. It's not commingling. Commingling is using your
14 client's money as your personal use.
15 Q. In other words, if you deposit your own money into
16 a client trust account, that's not commingling?
17 A. No, because my client --
18 Q. Do you have an opinion from the Florida Bar on
19 that, Mr. Dandar?
20 A. My client didn't have any money.
21 Q. Sir, do you have an opinion from the Florida
22 Bar -- listen to my question. Yes or no.
23 A. You interrupted my answer.
24 Q. No, sir. You weren't answering.
25 Do you have an opinion from the Florida Bar
179
1 that that is not commingling?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. So you deposit the money. If you didn't do
4 it this way, then the people to whom you issued the checks
5 would have checks that showed Dandar & Dandar account, not
6 the trust account, right?
7 A. It's still Dandar & Dandar, right.
8 Q. Sir, did you ever learn the principle that it's
9 not still Dandar & Dandar. You've got one pocket that's
10 your money and one pocket that's your client's. Did you
11 ever learn that principle?
12 A. Right. All of this was my money.
13 Q. Okay. Let's go on.
14 You told us that in 1997 when you first spoke
15 with Mr. Minton you were very suspicious about this; you
16 didn't know who he was, and you would not take the money
17 until you first called the Florida Bar to see if it was
18 okay and then to talk to your client.
19 And after those two things were done, then you
20 said to Minton, okay, I will take the check. You were
21 careful.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When Mr. Minton told you, according to you, that
24 as he hands you a check drawn on a numbered Swiss bank
25 account -- on a numbered Swiss bank account -- when he
180
1 supposedly told you that this money was from the fat man
2 and you didn't know who it was, did you call the Florida
3 Bar to ask them if you could take it? Yes or no.
4 A. No. I --
5 Q. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not this
6 was dirty money?
7 A. Judge, I've got to finish --
8 Q. Did you make any inquiry as to whether or not this
9 was dirty money? This could have been drug money. Did you
10 make any inquiry?
11 A. Not from Mr. Minton. I trusted Mr. Minton.
12 Q. Did you make any inquiry apart from Mr. Minton?
13 A. Not from Mr. Minton.
14 Q. You know, I'm just going to repeat the question
15 until you answer it.
16 A. You interrupted my last one. I'm trying to really
17 cooperate here.
18 Q. Did you make any inquiry to anyone other than
19 Mr. Minton as to whether or not this was dirty money?
20 A. No. And the money didn't come from the fat man.
21 I don't know why you keep saying that.
22 Q. Huh?
23 A. Why do you keep saying the fat man?
24 Q. Isn't that what you said?
25 A. No. That was Mr. Minton's joke.
181
1 Q. That was Mr. Minton's joke?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Well, see, I'm confused. Who are you telling us
4 Mr. Minton said the money came from?
5 A. He said on the last check.
6 Q. How about the $500,000, the first check?
7 A. He just called it his friends in Europe, anonymous
8 donor, and that was it. And I said that was fine.
9 Q. Anonymous lender, not anonymous donor.
10 A. It's a donor or a lender depending on the outcome
11 of the case.
12 Q. So you didn't care whether or not this anonymous
13 lender was money laundering, drug money. It might have
14 been Al-Queda money for all you care. You took the money.
15 A. Mr. Minton at that point in time had -- in my
16 mind, I respected him and trusted him, and I knew that he
17 was a professional banker.
18 Q. How about answering my question.
19 A. And the answer is no.
20 Q. You didn't care what kind of dirty money it was.
21 You took it.
22 A. Not true.
23 Q. Did you make any inquiry of the bank?
24 A. Of course not.
25 Q. Now, you said Mr. Dandar, last time and today, you
182
1 repeatedly gratuitously offered there's no name on the
2 check, on those Swiss bank checks, right?
3 A. Except my name.
4 Q. But there's an account number; isn't there?
5 A. I hope so. I hope there's something on there, but
6 nothing I could identify.
7 Q. Do you want to look at Exhibit 5 and 6 and see if
8 you see an account number on there?
9 A. Now, where is that going to be found?
10 Q. Five and six.
11 A. There's nothing in order. So tell me what file to
12 look in. Is it something we already covered?
13 Q. Here, I will give you extra copies, 5 and 6.
14 A. I've got it. So why don't you point out to me
15 where the account number is.
16 Q. Do you not see it, Mr. Dandar?
17 A. No, I don't.
18 Q. How about dead center, bottom.
19 A. It doesn't look like --
20 Q. It starts with 001-1848165, account Zurich.
21 A. It doesn't say that it's an account number.
22 Q. Well, what do you think it is, a telephone number?
23 A. I have no idea. You know what, it could be.
24 Q. It says a-c-c. Have you ever heard of that, a-c-c
25 being an abbreviation for account number?
183
1 A. No. It says a-c-c Zurich.
2 Q. A-c-c, you're not aware of is an abbreviation for
3 account?
4 A. No, I don't use that. I have never seen that
5 before.
6 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I'm going to show the
7 witness an exhibit we've marked as Exhibit 60 subject to
8 being authenticated by Mr. Minton.
9 BY MR. ROSEN:
10 Q. Let me show you what's been marked as Exhibit 60.
11 Sir, Exhibit 60 purports to be, subject to
12 authentication by Mr. Minton, a check he delivered to
13 Courage Production in connection with the production of a
14 film to profit a parody of Scientology.
15 MR. LIROT: Objection, relevance.
16 THE COURT: I will let you complete the
17 question.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Look at the account number, bottom of the middle
20 of the check.
21 A. Yeah, that's a much better copy. What's your
22 question?
23 Q. It's the same exact account number, right --
24 MR. LIROT: Objection, relevance.
25 BY MR. ROSEN:
184
1 Q. -- as the two Swiss checks you got, right?
2 A. Well, you know, if that's an account number,
3 you're right. If it's not, I have no idea what it is.
4 Q. And you know, because you were involved in it, you
5 actually played a role in this, Courage Production,
6 Mr. Minton put up money to make a film, a parody of
7 Scientology, right?
8 A. Partially, yes.
9 Q. You were part of that process. You played a role
10 in that movie. You were an actor.
11 A. I had a five-second spot, right.
12 Q. There's no question in your mind that this is
13 Mr. Minton's money; is it?
14 A. Sure, there's a question in my mind.
15 Q. Do you think the fat man was bankrolling the
16 production of a movie?
17 A. I think his friends in Europe could very well have
18 sent this money in, just like they sent it to me.
19 Q. They didn't send anything to you; did they?
20 A. Sure they did.
21 Q. I thought you said that they weren't sent to you;
22 Mr. Minton gave it to you, the check?
23 A. Well, if you want to do that, that's fine, right.
24 He hand-delivered it to me and mailed one.
25 Q. Okay. Let's get back to the subject we had
185
1 discussed earlier, and I just want to run through these
2 quickly.
3 There came a point in time when you first
4 articulated to a Court -- whether it be in a brief, an oral
5 argument, an affidavit, somewhere -- that the money
6 Mr. Minton provided to you was a personal loan to you and
7 it's not to the estate.
8 A. That's always been the case. That's true.
9 Q. Sir, when was the first time that you ever said to
10 any judge -- whether in an affidavit, a motion or an oral
11 argument -- that the money from Mr. Minton was a personal
12 loan to me, no strings; I can use it anyway I want? When
13 is the first time you said that to any judge?
14 A. I have no idea, but I'm sure it was Judge Moody in
15 Tampa.
16 Q. Sir, if I tell you that the first time you
17 advanced the story of a personal loan to you was in 2000,
18 do you disagree with that?
19 A. I would think so, yeah. And it's not a story.
20 Q. Huh?
21 A. I would disagree with everything you've just said.
22 Q. Between now and the time that we resume, will you
23 be good enough to look for any statement you've ever made
24 to a judge in either case, before the year 2000 -- whether
25 it be an affidavit, a transcript of the oral argument, a
186
1 brief, anything, any piece of paper, or orally -- which you
2 told the judge the story you're telling us here, that this
3 is a personal loan to you, no strings attached? Would you
4 do me a favor and look for that?
5 A. I will do you no favor. It's not a story. And I
6 don't have time to go look for anything.
7 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 25. This is January
8 4th, 2001. I just want to go over some of these things
9 with you. This is before Judge Quesada. I want to go over
10 some of your filings.
11 Page 76. You told Judge Quesada there that the
12 Plaintiff, your client, had testified and filed an
13 affidavit saying there is no agreement whatsoever with
14 Mr. Minton except to try to reimburse him if sufficient
15 recovery is made in the case. Right?
16 A. That's a true statement.
17 Q. Your client said there was an oral agreement. You
18 told Judge Quesada there was no agreement of any kind
19 whatsoever.
20 A. There was no agreement.
21 Q. "There is no agreement whatsoever."
22 That's what you told Judge Quesada, right?
23 A. Except to try and reimburse him if sufficient
24 recovery in this case. That's the oral part.
25 Q. 729, sir, another proceeding before Judge Quesada.
187
1 A. I'm sorry. 29?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. All right. Just give me a second.
4 Q. Exhibit 29, Page 46. This is April 4, 2001. I'm
5 starting on Line 17. Here's what you told Judge Quesada:
6 "Each of these affidavits state there's
7 absolutely no agreement between her and the Estate and
8 Mr. Minton or the Lisa McPherson Trust or anyone else,
9 absolutely no agreement, where they're going to get a dime
10 out of this litigation, except the agreement to pay back
11 Mr. Minton the money he advanced to help defray costs."
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Well, to help defray costs is not a synonym for no
14 strings; I can use it any way I want, is it?
15 A. It's not a synonym; that's correct.
16 Q. So at least as of this point in time of 2001, you
17 are telling the story that the money that Minton has
18 advanced is to defray costs in the wrongful death case,
19 right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You didn't say that?
22 A. No, I didn't tell a story, Mr. Rosen.
23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next exhibit, Exhibit 21,
24 October 1, 1999 before Judge Moody.
25 Starting at Line 4, this is you, Mr. Dandar;
188
1 this is what you told Judge Moody:
2 "Mr. Minton already testified to -- and I think
3 it's attached to his deposition, you know -- the family
4 doesn't have to pay me back unless they think they got
5 enough money."
6 "The family doesn't have to pay me back," not
7 Kennan Dandar doesn't have to pay me back. The family.
8 Right? That's what you told Judge Moody?
9 A. That's what I said, a true statement.
10 Q. Well, we do understand one thing, though, that
11 according to your version of this transaction, personal
12 loan to you, no strings, if you get a recovery in a
13 wrongful death, then it's not the Estate who pays
14 Mr. Minton back; it's you, out of your contingent fees,
15 right?
16 A. No.
17 Q. The Estate pays it back?
18 A. No, I pay it back.
19 Q. Out of your contingent fees?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How?
22 A. Out of the recovery, I pay it back.
23 Q. What do you mean out of the recovery?
24 A. Just like any other normal contingency fee
25 contract which you already have in evidence, the attorney
189
1 fees come off of the top and the costs come off the top.
2 Q. Now, which comes off the top first?
3 A. I'm sorry. The attorney fees come off the top and
4 then the costs are subtracted.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And those costs are Mr. Minton's loans to me.
7 Q. Okay. Let's see if I understand this. I will
8 give you the same hypothetical I gave your client.
9 So there's a 5-million-dollar recovery in the
10 wrongful death case. The first thing that comes off of the
11 top is attorneys fees, 40 percent. In my hypothetical, you
12 get 2 million, right?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. You put the whole 2 million in your pocket; it's
15 all yours.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Or your firm's.
18 A. I'm sorry. On attorney's fees? You're right.
19 Q. Yeah. So now the Estate has got 3 million left
20 out of which the Estate then pays back Mr. Minton for the
21 personal loan to you for the costs.
22 A. No. I send a bill to the Estate for the costs,
23 all right?
24 Q. And the Estate -- it's subtracted from the
25 Estate's 3 million?
190
1 A. The Estate pays me back the amount of money for
2 the costs. I turn around and I pay Mr. Minton.
3 Q. Okay. Now I've got it. So let's see. Thank you
4 for clarifying that. I had it wrong. Let's see if I get
5 it right this time.
6 A 5-million-dollar recovery, 40 percent
7 attorney's fees is 2 million off the top, Dandar & Dandar's
8 money, step number one, right? Correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Step number two, you send your client, the Estate,
11 a statement saying, "I laid out a million dollars in
12 expenses."
13 A. Okay, a million dollars.
14 Q. So the Estate says -- and you say to the Estate,
15 out of your 3 million, give me a million bucks.
16 A. Right.
17 Q. The Estate sends you a million dollars for your
18 expenses. You take the million dollars. You send it to
19 Mr. Minton.
20 A. Right. Well, actually, how it works is you take
21 your million dollars of costs that you just got reimbursed
22 from your client under your contract, you turn around and
23 you write a check to Mr. Minton for all of the money he
24 sent to me.
25 Q. So, in other words -- very good, Mr. Dandar. In
191
1 other words, you hit your client for the first million.
2 And then if he gave you 2 million, then you add the
3 client's million dollars to the other million he gave you
4 and you give him back 2 million, right?
5 A. I didn't follow that. Can I put it in simple
6 terms?
7 Q. You return to Mr. Minton 2 million dollars, one
8 million of which in my hypothetical comes from your client,
9 comes from the Estate?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. The other million comes from you.
12 A. That's right. It comes out of my fee.
13 Q. That's how you reimburse Mr. Minton. The Estate
14 had just paid -- assuming that you used your money, the 2
15 million dollars, to buy yourself a house or something, the
16 Estate has just paid for it.
17 A. No. The Estate has paid for the costs of the
18 case, depositions, all of the things that we had to pay
19 for. Do you understand that or not?
20 Q. No. I understand exactly what you're saying,
21 Mr. Dandar.
22 A. And if the amount recovered for costs is less than
23 the amount the Estate is legally obligated to pay, the
24 remaining money comes out of my fee and goes to Mr. Minton.
25 Q. Let's go -- but you don't have any records of
192
1 those monies that the Estate had to pay.
2 A. What do you mean I don't have records of those?
3 Q. Well, sir, didn't you tell me that you throw out
4 your records after three years?
5 A. What records are you talking about?
6 Q. You throw out your bank records after three years,
7 so you don't have any records of any money that you spent
8 for expenses in 1997 to 1998.
9 A. Well, I don't know how you jump to that
10 conclusion. I mean, I have expenses --
11 Q. Only by virtue of your testimony, sir.
12 A. Well, that's not what I said.
13 Q. Oh, okay. Well, let me go back and ask a
14 question.
15 Do you have records of the expenditures you
16 made on behalf of the Estate in the wrongful death case in
17 the year 1997?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. You save those records, but you don't have your
20 bank records from 1997?
21 A. On this particular subject matter?
22 Q. Yes or no? You have those records, but you don't
23 have your bank records from 1997; is that right?
24 A. Well, my general bank records, no, I don't.
25 On this particular matter, I should have all of
193
1 the bank records. I know I have all of the expenses. I
2 have a whole big box of expenses, probably five boxes.
3 Q. Let's go to Exhibit 70. We're back at the January
4 13th, 1998 deposition of Mr. Minton that you were at.
5 A. Well, hold on. Is this something we already
6 talked about?
7 Q. 70.
8 A. I'm trying to figure out what pile it's in. Just
9 bear with me here. If it's something we already talked
10 about, then it's over here.
11 Q. Yeah. We already talked about it.
12 A. All right. That's why I needed to know. All
13 right.
14 Q. Got it, Mr. Dandar?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. We're going to go through this quickly.
17 Page 43, Line 12, "Are there any restrictions
18 on how the funds should be used?"
19 This is the question to Mr. Minton of the funds
20 he supplied you.
21 Answer, "Well, they're to be used for the Lisa
22 McPherson Estate."
23 Question, "For example?"
24 "And there were no restrictions put on them by
25 me."
194
1 "Could Mr. Dandar buy a car with them?"
2 "That would hardly facilitate the Lisa
3 McPherson case."
4 "I'm not being facetious. I'm asking a
5 question, and I would ask you to answer. Can these funds
6 be used by Mr. Dandar to buy a car for himself? Yes or
7 no."
8 "No."
9 You sat and listened to your benefactor testify
10 under oath in January of 1998 that there were strings on
11 this money.
12 A. That's true.
13 Q. You never cross-examined him?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You never said, wait a second, that's untrue;
16 that's not our deal. You never said that, right?
17 A. I would never say that in a deposition.
18 Q. And you never sent him a letter saying, by the
19 way -- in words or substance -- by the way, Mr. Minton,
20 your testimony is wrong; there aren't any strings on this
21 money. You never said that, Mr. Dandar?
22 A. Never said that.
23 Q. Did you?
24 A. Never sent him a letter.
25 Q. Okay. Let's continue on.
195
1 The bottom of Page 43, question, "Can these
2 funds be used by Mr. Dandar for personal use of
3 Mr. Dandar?"
4 And then the question is repeated.
5 Answer on Line 9, Page 44, "No, they're not to
6 be used by Mr. Dandar for his personal use. That's nothing
7 to do with it."
8 A. That's a truthful answer by Mr. Minton.
9 Q. But you have a different view. You have a view of
10 no strings; you could use it for personal use.
11 A. It all depends on what year we're talking about.
12 Q. Please.
13 A. And you know that's what Mr. Minton testified to.
14 Q. I move to strike that comment, sir.
15 A. All right. I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: That's all right. Move on.
17 BY MR. ROSEN:
18 Q. Let's go to Page 110. Same transcript,
19 Mr. Dandar.
20 A. Sorry. What page? 110?
21 Q. Yep.
22 All right. Line 22, "Were the commitments to
23 Mr. Dandar, which is to date $250,000, would that be under
24 the same terms that the hundred thousand was made to
25 Mr. Dandar?"
196
1 Answer, "There have been no discussions about
2 it, but, yes, that's the way I would do it."
3 "It's not your intention to give Mr. Dandar the
4 $250,000 he can use for purposes unrelated to the Lisa
5 McPherson case?"
6 "Absolutely. It would only be used for the
7 Lisa McPherson case, the prosecution of that case."
8 Do you see that?
9 A. Of course.
10 Q. You sat there and heard this, and you're telling
11 us now four years later that that was untrue.
12 A. That statement by Mr. Minton was true at the time
13 he made it.
14 Q. The statement by Mr. Minton was true at the time
15 he made it; there were strings on the money?
16 A. He wanted it to be used for the Lisa McPherson
17 case; that's right.
18 Q. And then there came a point later that he changed
19 it?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. Mr. Dandar, you're about to tell us about some
22 agreement with Mr. Minton after January of 1998 in which he
23 changed the deal and said you can spend the money for your
24 personal use?
25 A. No. I don't want to tell you about anything,
197
1 actually.
2 Q. You're going to tell us that, right?
3 A. If the Court orders me to talk, I will answer it.
4 Q. Before the story passes your lips, Mr. Dandar,
5 have you ever told the story you're about to tell us
6 anywhere -- in any court, any affidavit, any motion, any
7 brief, any oral argument, any deposition -- the story
8 you're about to tell us, has it ever passed your lips
9 before right now?
10 A. I haven't told a story ever.
11 Q. Ever. Well, then, Mr. Dandar, I'm all ears.
12 Let's hear it.
13 THE WITNESS: Do we have to hear it, Judge? I
14 mean, he wants to -- I mean, what does this have to do with
15 your case?
16 THE COURT: It has a lot to do with my case.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, after that
18 deposition of Mr. Minton in Boston in January
19 of 1998, Mr. Minton widened the scope of the
20 money that he was loaning to me and left it up
21 to me on how to spend it with no restrictions.
22 BY MR. ROSEN:
23 Q. Right. So it was after he had given you the first
24 $350,000 that he changed the deal and said no strings?
25 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly if it's that point
198
1 in time. Because that point in time would have been that
2 deposition, so, no; it was sometime after that, as
3 testified to in his two other depositions.
4 Q. It was after he gave you the first hundred and the
5 additional 250.
6 A. It was sometime after that. It could have been a
7 year after that.
8 Q. Okay. Wait a minute. He at least gave you -- at
9 the time of this conversation, he had already given you at
10 least 350, a hundred and 250, right?
11 A. That's what his deposition states, yes.
12 Q. And do you deny that?
13 A. No, that's probably true.
14 Q. Okay. So let's see if I've got this right. At
15 some time after this deposition in Boston in January of '98
16 after Mr. Minton had given you at least $350,000, you then
17 had this conversation with him in which he said, "Forget
18 all of that stuff I told you before. No strings. You can
19 use the money for whatever you want."
20 Is that in essence your testimony, Mr. Dandar?
21 A. That's absolutely true.
22 Q. Uh-huh. And tell me something, who are the
23 witnesses to this conversation?
24 A. Me and Mr. Minton.
25 Q. And can you tell us when this occurred?
199
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you tell us approximately? Was it spring?
3 Were the birds singing? Was the snow falling in New
4 England? Give us a little bit of a help here.
5 A. I can't help you anymore.
6 Q. Can't help us anymore. So let me ask -- I have to
7 ask this for the record. I'm not being facetious.
8 But there's no letter to Mr. Minton confirming
9 this, right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. There's no memo of yours confirming it, right?
12 A. No, just his depositions, actually.
13 Q. There is no --
14 A. The answer is no.
15 Q. You created no document of any kind to memorialize
16 this dramatic change from strings to no strings. Am I
17 right?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Okay. So if this change occurred after he had
20 given you the first hundred, right, and after he had given
21 you the 250 -- withdraw that question.
22 Before this conversation, he's right; you had
23 to use the money for the Estate, right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Then why didn't you deposit the $250,000 into your
200
1 client trust account instead of stealing it?
2 A. Why, thank you, Mr. Rosen. Was that a question?
3 Q. Yeah. I will withdraw that. I will rephrase it.
4 A. I hope so.
5 Q. Why didn't you deposit the $250,000 into your
6 client trust account rather than the Dandar & Dandar
7 account?
8 A. Because at that time I had personally met
9 Mr. Minton, and he gave me the other check, and I put it
10 into an interest-bearing account, and it was my money.
11 Q. Mr. Dandar, according to your testimony, the
12 original deal was the money is the Estate's to be used for
13 the Estate's expenses.
14 You deposit the first hundred thousand into a
15 client trust account, which is consistent with the money
16 belonging to the Estate and to be used for the Estate's
17 expenses, right?
18 A. No. It's consistent with the fact that I didn't
19 know who Mr. Minton was, and I thought I was being set up
20 by Scientology, so I deposited it into my trust account.
21 That's why I did it that way.
22 Q. Sir, if somebody gives you money that is intended
23 as a deposit or to be used for a case for a client, it has
24 to go in the client trust account, right?
25 A. Not on a personal loan.
201
1 Q. Other than a personal loan, if somebody gives you
2 an advanced deposit on expenses, it has to go in a client
3 trust account, right?
4 A. I don't know. I have never had that situation
5 happen.
6 Q. All right. Look, you know, we're not --
7 A. The client gives me --
8 Q. We do agree, though, that the second check for
9 $250,000 given to you before this new agreement of no
10 strings, you didn't deposit in your client trust account,
11 right? We agree on that.
12 A. Well, I can't agree with that. Show me the check
13 and I will tell you. Have we gone through that check?
14 Q. No. This is almost facetious. Show you the check
15 and the deposit slip that you won't produce to us because
16 you claim privilege.
17 A. That's not really true, Mr. Rosen. I produced
18 everything up until January of 2000 pursuant to Judge
19 Moody's court orders, so you have either the account copy
20 of the check going into an account or the deposit slip
21 pursuant to Judge Moody's orders, which I complied with.
22 Q. Sir, you have produced no records showing this
23 deposit of several checks over and above the four checks;
24 isn't that right?
25 A. There was no court order to do that; that's right.
202
1 Anything beyond January of 2000 has not been produced. And
2 when the court order came out in September, I believe, of
3 2001 by Judge Beach, we appealed it and we prevailed, and
4 the order was quashed.
5 Q. Sir, you gave us a deposit slip and a check Ken
6 Dandar, May 25, 2001?
7 A. No, I didn't. You obtained that through another
8 means in violation of the stay order.
9 MR. ROSEN: All right. Move to strike it,
10 Your Honor. This witness is just unbearable in
11 terms of his non-responsiveness.
12 THE WITNESS: I'm answering his questions.
13 THE COURT: I don't think we need to have
14 any more of this colloquy, Mr. Rosen.
15 Have you got some more questions? I'm
16 about ready to close it up tonight.
17 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I just have a few more.
18 BY MR. ROSEN:
19 Q. Mr. Dandar, do you remember being deposed on
20 January 25, 2001 in this case?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. ROSEN: And, Your Honor, this is Exhibit
23 27.
24 BY MR. ROSEN:
25 Q. Let me read to you a question and answer from Page
203
1 44.
2 A. Do I have this? I would like to have it before
3 you do that. Well, speed it up. Go ahead.
4 Q. Question, "You know that Mr. Minton has already
5 testified at one point as to how much he has paid you and I
6 think you have too. I know at one point it was in excess
7 of a million dollars."
8 Answer, "Mr. Minton testified a million and
9 50,000. This is as of January of 2001."
10 Question, "That was the given point in time,
11 right?"
12 Answer, "Whenever his last deposition was,
13 which you can go get since your client took it."
14 Question, "Was that number accurate?"
15 Answer, "Yeah."
16 Question, "This is for defraying costs in the
17 wrongful death case?"
18 Answer, "Yes."
19 Did you give those answers?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. Were they true?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. $1,050,000 was for, quote, defraying costs from
24 the wrongful death case.
25 A. Defraying, yes.
204
1 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Exhibit 70 to the last
2 part -- skip that.
3 Mr. Minton -- excuse me -- Mr. Dandar, is it
4 correct --
5 A. What page?
6 Q. Mr. Dandar, is it correct that starting in 1998
7 you made a series of real-estate acquisitions, the year
8 after you first got the Minton money you made a series of
9 real-estate acquisitions?
10 A. No, not that I remember.
11 Q. You don't remember? You don't remember buying two
12 commercial lots in downtown Tampa?
13 A. I never bought commercial lots in downtown Tampa.
14 Q. Did you buy any real estate in Tampa?
15 A. I purchased -- I owned real estate in Tampa before
16 that.
17 Q. When did you buy it?
18 A. I have no idea. I mean, my secretary probably
19 knows better than I do. I've owned an office building in
20 the West Shore business district in Tampa for six to eight
21 years, well before this case ever came around.
22 Q. Sir, I'm not interested in that. Answer my
23 question. Did you buy any real estate in Tampa after you
24 started getting Minton money? Yes or no.
25 A. I believe I did. I can't remember, though.
205
1 Q. Where did you buy it? What did you buy? A
2 warehouse?
3 A. I never bought a warehouse.
4 Q. What did you buy, Mr. Dandar?
5 A. I'm not sure that I'm the one that bought it,
6 though. It's a family thing. We bought two lots across
7 the street from our office building -- three lots,
8 actually.
9 Q. In what year, Mr. Dandar?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. After you started getting the Minton money?
12 A. Well, all kinds of things happened.
13 Q. After you started getting the Minton money?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. You also bought a house in North Carolina?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You didn't?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You bought a house for your mother?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In Odessa?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Those were not your transactions?
24 A. Absolutely not.
25 Q. Did you put up any money for any of those
206
1 acquisitions?
2 A. No. It's my parents' monies. It's their home.
3 Q. You bought a house for yourself?
4 A. Of course I own a house. I have always owned a
5 house. Well, not always.
6 Q. After 1998?
7 A. After I sold -- I owned a house before 1998, and I
8 sold it and I bought another house on the same street, I
9 believe, in 1999 with no money except my money.
10 Q. Would you look at Exhibit 44.
11 A. Is this a new one or is this an old one?
12 Q. It's not one you've seen before, sir.
13 A. Is it 44A?
14 Q. 44.
15 A. No, I got it.
16 Q. This is a deed dated the 15th of July 1999 to Ann
17 L. Dandar, trustee. Who is Ann L. Dandar?
18 A. That's my mother.
19 Q. Did you supply any funds for the purchase of this
20 property?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Could you identify what this property is, sir?
23 A. It's my parents' home in North Carolina, I
24 believe. Let me take a look. Is this North Carolina? I
25 can't see it right now. I have got to look at the legal
207
1 description.
2 Paradise subdivision. No. That's Hillsborough
3 County. That's their home they used to own.
4 Q. This is their home in Hillsborough County?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Your mother is a trustee of what?
7 A. A family trust.
8 Q. And you didn't supply any money for this, right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. And you would have records, then. You were
11 counsel on the transaction. You did the deal for your
12 mother?
13 A. I'm not sure. Probably me or my brother. It's
14 not important. It certainly didn't involve Minton money,
15 if that's where you're going.
16 Q. All right. Let's turn to Exhibit 45. This is a
17 warranty deed dated July 29th, 1999 to you and your wife.
18 What's this for, sir?
19 A. Well, this is the home I live in now, my money.
20 Q. Okay. Say again?
21 A. It's all my money, plus the mortgage from the
22 bank.
23 Q. And it was bought in July of '99?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 46, sir, July 1 of 2000
208
1 deed.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. July 1, 2000, this is what, sir, a house in
4 Odessa, Florida?
5 A. That's the same house, my parents' house.
6 Q. I thought your parents' house was in Hillsborough.
7 A. Well, you don't know the area quite well.
8 Q. This is the same one as we went over before? We
9 have two copies of the same deed --
10 A. No, this is different.
11 Q. -- is that what you're telling us?
12 A. No, I'm not telling you that at all. The second
13 page is the deed going from the Millers to my mother and my
14 sister. The second one is a quitclaim deed going from my
15 mother and sister to my other sister and her husband where
16 they continue to reside.
17 Q. And none of your money is involved in this
18 transaction, right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. My sister purchased that from my mother and my
22 other sister.
23 MR. ROSEN: Give me one second, Your Honor. I
24 think I'm nearing the end.
25 Okay. No further questions, Your Honor.
209
1 And I would again move in the exhibits that
2 were identified by the examination in particular with
3 respect to depositions and pages themselves. And nothing
4 further.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. LIROT: No objection, Judge.
7 THE COURT: All right. They will be
8 received.
9 Okay. I think we're going to wind it up.
10 MR. LIROT: Before we go, my concern is
11 with scheduling I have obligations, and I'm
12 before judges in Hillsborough County tomorrow
13 morning and tomorrow afternoon.
14 And for a hearing that was originally set
15 for an hour, I would like to at least represent
16 for the record I will make myself available
17 whenever possible, but I would like to be able
18 to work with my colleagues to try to do this in
19 a different way than has been the case where we
20 don't have to have these emergency hearings.
21 I would like to get some alternative dates
22 to make sure everybody gets -- in fact, I will
23 even do a chart with whatever dates I get from
24 your office.
25 THE COURT: I'm going to let you work that
210
1 out, Mr. Lirot, okay? And you know my schedule
2 and when I'm going to be available. And if you
3 don't, you can find out from Claudia, and we
4 will just do it whenever we can do it.
5 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I think Mr. Pope
6 has already obtained the schedule and you're
7 available tomorrow.
8 THE COURT: Yeah, I am.
9 MR. POPE: From 2:30 to five you're open
10 on your schedule tomorrow.
11 THE COURT: Tomorrow afternoon, I am.
12 MR. ROSEN: Can we resume it tomorrow at
13 2:30?
14 By the way, I think our intention is to
15 rest. So as long -- if Mr. Lirot can tell us
16 what his approximation is as to how long his
17 case is going to be, I think we're done.
18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we should argue
19 the legal merits. I would like to for a --
20 THE COURT: We're not going to argue those
21 tonight, though.
22 MR. LIROT: I know that.
23 MR. ROSEN: Can we resume at 2:30
24 tomorrow?
25 MR. LIROT: I can't say I will be
211
1 available at 2:30, and I have an out-of-town
2 client coming in late tomorrow afternoon.
3 These are long-term obligations.
4 THE COURT: Okay. I'm just asking.
5 MR. LIROT: I don't mean to seem panicked.
6 THE COURT: I don't perceive it as that,
7 but you need to coordinate and they need to
8 coordinate with you.
9 MR. ROSEN: If we can get an estimate of
10 how long Counsel's evidentiary presentation is,
11 we'll try to work it out with Mr. Lirot.
12 (Thereupon, the hearing was concluded.)
212
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 )
5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
6 I, Susan M. Valsecchi, Registered Professional
7 Reporter, in and for the Sixth Judicial Circuit, State of
8 Florida:
9 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I was authorized to and
10 did stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and
11 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
12 stenographic notes.
13 DATED this day of , 2002, at
14 Clearwater, Pinellas County, Florida.
15
16
17
18 Susan M. Valsecchi, RPR
19 Registered Professional Reporter
|