Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
179
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
3
4
5
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
6 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
7
8 Plaintiff,
9 vs. VOLUME 3
10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
12
Defendants.
13
_______________________________________/
14
15
16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
17
CONTENTS: Testimony of Kennan Dandar.
18
DATE: June 4, 2002. Afternoon Session.
19
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
20 St. Petersburg, Florida.
21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
22
REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR.
23 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
24
25
180
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorney for Plaintiff.
5
6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
8 Attorney for Plaintiff
9
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
10 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
11 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization.
13
MR. LEE FUGATE
14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
16 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
17
18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN.
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
19 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
21
22
23
24
25
181
1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar.
2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have got a message back
3 from Mr. Pope that he checked with Judge Baird on
4 the 12th. And Judge Baird has no time on the 12th.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. FUGATE: He said that the 11th had been
7 selected. Obviously he didn't know that this
8 hearing would be going back in April --
9 THE COURT: Sure.
10 MR. FUGATE: -- and that they would like to try
11 to keep it. I said I would advise the Court of
12 that.
13 And then I also left the no court dates, the
14 dates you announced that we're not going to have
15 court, which I have as the 14th, 21st and the two
16 weeks of June 22nd through 26th and July 1st through
17 the 5th, so that he can also look for those dates,
18 as well.
19 And he asked counsel and I that -- Mr. Dandar
20 and Mr. Lirot not book those dates because he'll
21 also check with the Court on that.
22 And that is all I can tell you.
23 THE COURT: I don't want him to think they
24 can't book any of those dates because he wants to
25 set one hearing.
182
1 MR. FUGATE: No. That is all I said. Those
2 are the dates I passed on to him, and he'll try to
3 check the dates out.
4 THE COURT: Good. If he insists on having this
5 hearing on the 11th, Judge Baird and I will confer
6 and decide between us which is more important.
7 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge.
8 THE COURT: You may proceed.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, before lunch we talked a little bit about
11 phone calls. You had indicated that -- or maybe it was even
12 speculated -- that maybe Jesse Prince had used your cell
13 phone. Do you remember that?
14 A Yes. Many people --
15 Q Now, Jesse Prince, from the moment that you first
16 met him at the end of 1998, prior to him reviewing the PC
17 folders, he always had his own cell phone, didn't he?
18 A Not that I'm aware of.
19 Q When do you first remember him having his own cell
20 phone?
21 A My best memory is when he went to work for the
22 trust in June of 2000.
23 Q So prior to June of 2000, he didn't have a cell
24 phone?
25 A Not that I remember.
183
1 Q But once June of 2000 came about, he had a cell
2 phone?
3 A Well, he was at the trust. Yes, for sure he had a
4 cell phone when he was at the trust. Whether he had one
5 before that, unless you show me something, I can't remember.
6 Many times on these Minton numbers, also, I would
7 end up talking with Stacy Brooks, because she was there
8 quite a few times, and I would talk to her before I got to
9 talk to Mr. Minton.
10 Q Usually if you talked to her, then you would talk
11 to Mr. Minton?
12 A Not all of the times. Sometimes she would just
13 talk to me and I wouldn't be allowed to talk to Mr. Minton.
14 Q You wouldn't be allowed because of what?
15 A I don't know why.
16 Q And sometimes you just talked to Mr. Minton and
17 didn't talk to Ms. Brooks. Right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, if you go back to Exhibit 105, which is your
20 response to the request for production, right at the -- do
21 you see that there are four calls, two on October 18, 2001,
22 one on October 20, 2001, and one on October 22nd, 2001? Do
23 you see those calls?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And those were four calls again you initiated.
184
1 Now, my question to you is --
2 A I can't say that. But --
3 Q Well, you can say that you initiated those calls,
4 right?
5 A No. I can't say that. I can say that my phone
6 number initiated those calls. I can't under oath tell you
7 it was me.
8 Q All right. Now, can you tell, from what you
9 produced to us, whether it's your cell phone number that
10 those calls were initiated from?
11 A No.
12 Q Or your office number?
13 A No.
14 Q But you can tell from your office records as to
15 whether it was your cell phone or your office number.
16 Right?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And if it is your cell phone, the chances are that
19 that was you that initiated the calls. Correct?
20 A No. There is no way to tell.
21 Q Now, Mr. Minton was deposed on October 11th and
22 12th, 2001. Is that right?
23 A That sounds right.
24 Q All right. And even though he had cut off the
25 phones and even though his second -- or third, whatever
185
1 deposition it was, was over, you were still -- somebody from
2 your cell phone and/or office phone made four calls to
3 Mr. Minton after all of that in late October, 2001. Right?
4 A Yes. That is what the records show, calls were
5 made.
6 Q And do you remember what you -- what interest you
7 had in talking to Mr. Minton after his deposition was
8 completed on October 11 and 12?
9 A No.
10 Q Now, you said, I believe, earlier today that
11 absolutely you never sent to Mr. Minton an advance version
12 or copy of an amended complaint before it was filed. Right?
13 A That is right.
14 Q Well, let me show you what we'll have marked as
15 the next exhibit.
16 THE CLERK: 145.
17 MR. WEINBERG: 145?
18 THE CLERK: 145.
19 MR. WEINBERG: So that would be Defendant's
20 145, Judge.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q I'll just give you this copy. Now, do you
23 recognize -- by the way, look at Defendant's 145 and tell me
24 if you recognize Defendant's 145 to be -- okay, there are
25 two pages at the end we're going to remove. They're not
186
1 part of that exhibit. I'll take those two pages.
2 Now, do you recognize Exhibit 145 to be a draft of
3 the fifth amended complaint that was -- oh, do you recognize
4 it to be a draft of the fifth amended complaint?
5 A No.
6 Q Well, did you -- when you did your drafts, is it
7 your practice to put at the top the date of the draft?
8 A No. No.
9 Q It's not?
10 A No. I don't think so.
11 Q Okay. Let me show you --
12 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach the witness,
13 your Honor.
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q I have a notebook of all of the complaints filed
17 in this case. I'm going to show you, Mr. Dandar, if I
18 can --
19 A See, what is really weird is this last page that
20 has "Count 1, Error. Main document only," has "Count 8,
21 fraud --" or "Count 8, Count 9, fraud, error." And I have
22 no idea what all that is. That -- go ahead.
23 Q Let me show you --
24 MR. WEINBERG: If I can just stay here a
25 moment, your Honor?
187
1 THE COURT: You may.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Let me show you what I believe is an executed copy
4 of the fifth amended complaint that was filed with your
5 motion to add parties in late August, although this is
6 executed September 7, 1999. Right?
7 A Right.
8 Q And see at the top of that complaint you have got
9 the date, 9/6/99. Right?
10 A That is what that shows. I don't remember having
11 her ever doing that, though.
12 Q That is --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have that notebook, your
14 Honor?
15 THE COURT: All I have is a notebook that was
16 compiled for me a long, long time ago by Mr. Fugate
17 called "Compendium of materials requested by the
18 Court."
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if I could hand you this
20 notebook that has all of the versions of the
21 complaint in it, and I'll tell you which exhibit.
22 If you go to Exhibit -- if you go to Exhibit 6,
23 that is what I have shown to Mr. Dandar.
24 THE COURT: That is not in the fifth amended
25 complaint.
188
1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
2 THE COURT: I said I don't think that is in the
3 fifth amended complaint.
4 MR. WEINBERG: The one I just handed you.
5 THE COURT: Well, the ones I have are the ones
6 that are filed.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, right. But let me
8 explain. This is the one that he -- when he had his
9 motion to add parties, he attached this as what he
10 wanted to file to his motion to add parties that was
11 filed in September of 1999.
12 Judge Moody ultimately denied his ability to do
13 these amendments. But this is what he filed as of
14 9/6/99 in his motion.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay?
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Do you see, under Tab 6, if you look at the
19 complaint, at the style at the top in the left-hand corner,
20 it has the date 9/6/99 on it?
21 A Top left-hand corner.
22 THE COURT: I see. I was just looking to see
23 if I could find the fifth amended complaint. I
24 don't have it. I'm not sure if I took it out.
25 MR. WEINBERG: In the notebook I just handed
189
1 you, fifth amended complaint, the first one that was
2 actually filed is under Tab 7, and there were some
3 amendments, and then the one adding David Miscavige
4 is under Tab 8.
5 THE COURT: I can't find my fifth amended
6 complaint.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. In the notebook I handed
8 you, the one that is actually extant now is Tab 11,
9 I think that is the one you are looking for, that
10 was date stamped January 20th, 2000.
11 THE COURT: I now looked at the second amended
12 complaint, third amended complaint, fourth amended
13 complaint. None of them have a date stamp on it.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this one does. The last
15 exhibit in that notebook I just handed you, this
16 one, I guess, if you go to Exhibit 11, that is the
17 one you're looking for that has a date stamp on it.
18 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I -- the trouble is, I
19 can't find mine, but I'm sure mine looks like this.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Absolutely.
21 THE COURT: It does not have the date stamp.
22 That is the clerk's stamp.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is the clerk's stamp.
24 THE COURT: But whatever it is you are
25 referring to in the left-hand corner does not.
190
1 MR. WEINBERG: Right. But the one I'm
2 referring to, as he said, he didn't remember doing
3 that.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Tab 6 does have the date 9/6/99 on it, correct?
6 A Yes. But can you show us that this came from the
7 clerk's file?
8 Q It's what you filed as part of the motion.
9 A Well, I wish you would have asked me, I could have
10 brought my file and then I can tell you one way or another
11 whether that is correct.
12 THE COURT: Why would he file -- I'm kind of
13 curious why somebody would file something as part of
14 a pleading that wasn't what he filed.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Because he made a motion to
16 amend and to file this particular -- and asked leave
17 to file this complaint.
18 Then we had a hearing on his motion for leave
19 to file this version of the complaint. And that is
20 the hearing that ultimately took place in I think it
21 was October that Judge Moody denied his ability to
22 do that because of the contract.
23 And then, after that, he prepared a new motion
24 to file a fifth amended complaint which was filed in
25 November to add David Miscavige as head of the Sea
191
1 Org. That was argued in December, and ultimately
2 the complaint that was clerk-stamped January 20,
3 2000 is what resulted.
4 THE COURT: If you are saying this was filed,
5 so be it. But what I have in my book that was
6 prepared for me by you-all does not have one amended
7 complaint in it, not one that has a date.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We will get the motion --
9 THE COURT: So I don't know what that is. But
10 maybe he can tell us what that is if he remembers
11 what that is.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Do you remember, when you filed your motion to add
14 parties in September of 1999, that you attached as an
15 exhibit to the motion a -- a copy of a proposed amended
16 complaint that would have added David Miscavige, Ray Mithoff
17 and Marty Rathbun?
18 A Yes. But whether or not this exhibit is what I
19 attached to the motion, I can't say.
20 Q Okay, we will get that and we'll show you the
21 motion as an exhibit.
22 A I'll have to look in my file.
23 Q Okay. I'm looking now at Defendant's Exhibit 145,
24 which is this draft and -- and -- of a -- of a fifth amended
25 complaint. And it has a date on the top of 8/30/99.
192
1 Now, my question to you is do you remember having
2 a draft at or about that date?
3 A No.
4 Q And do you remember E-mailing to Mr. Minton this
5 draft?
6 A No.
7 Q August 30, 1999?
8 A No. But I'm sure you can show me the E-Mail to
9 refresh my memory.
10 Q Do you deny that you E-mailed this draft to
11 Mr. Minton at or about August 30, 1999 before the fifth
12 amended complaint was filed?
13 A To Mr. Minton? Right, I would not have done that.
14 To Ms. Brooks or Mr. Prince, it's possible.
15 Q Well, did you E-Mail drafts of amended -- of the
16 fifth amended complaint to Ms. Brooks up in New Hampshire on
17 Mr. Minton's computer?
18 A I don't remember -- well, no, I don't remember
19 doing that.
20 Mr. Prince, I'm sure he had a draft of all my
21 drafts -- he had a copy of all my drafts because he was in
22 my office at that time working on this.
23 Q Well, did you authorize Ms. Brooks or Mr. Prince
24 to give Mr. Minton draft copies of the amended complaint?
25 A I don't think so. No.
193
1 Q Well, not think so? Or did you not?
2 A Well, I'm pretty sure I didn't. Okay. If they
3 were already filed, anybody can get anything. But after --
4 I mean, before they're filed, I don't recall ever giving
5 Mr. Minton anything.
6 Q Well, that one that I have just showed you,
7 Defense Exhibit 145, there was never a complaint in that
8 version that was filed, was there, as it sits in that -- in
9 that document?
10 A This is a gobbledygook, as far as I'm concerned.
11 This looks like someone trying to scan it. I can't tell you
12 what this is.
13 There is some language in here from the fifth
14 amended complaint that was filed in September with the
15 motion. But I can't tell you what this is supposed to
16 represent. I don't know why it's so poorly organized.
17 Q Okay, let me mark as 146 -- Defense Exhibit 146 --
18 the following document. Now, do you remember E-mailing
19 Defense Exhibit 146 to Mr. Minton prior --
20 A No --
21 Q I'm sorry. Let me finish my question.
22 A I'm sorry. Go ahead.
23 Q -- prior to this version of the fifth amended
24 complaint being filed?
25 A This version, meaning 146, which has a date on the
194
1 top left corner of 9/6/99?
2 Q Of 9/6/99, right.
3 A I don't remember doing that. But do you know
4 what? If I did, you should have an E-Mail that goes with
5 this. And I would be surprised. But --
6 Q Well, you don't always have the hard copy of the
7 E-Mail that goes with the attachments that may well reside
8 on the hard drive, right? Isn't that right?
9 A No, I -- I don't know. I'm not knowing that much
10 about it.
11 THE COURT: Do you really know?
12 THE WITNESS: I don't really know.
13 THE COURT: I wouldn't know.
14 A But this doesn't look like an attachment. This
15 looks like something that was actually filed.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Except that this version was -- was attached to a
18 pleading. But this particular version was using the word
19 "filed" meaning actually accepted by the Court. This
20 version, the 9/6/99 version, was never accepted by Judge
21 Moody, was it, he --
22 A No --
23 Q You were never allowed to file this?
24 A No, because we never argued the motion to add on
25 parties. We argued the motion to challenge the stipulation
195
1 we entered into in 1997.
2 Q So the answer to my question is no, this was never
3 actually filed as the fifth amended complaint, this was just
4 part of a motion that was actually filed, right?
5 A Right.
6 THE COURT: This Number 146, I can guarantee
7 you, was not attached as part of any E-Mail. This
8 is far too clean, far too nice. I have never gotten
9 anything quite that nice, I don't think, off an
10 E-Mail.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, I'm not going to
12 quibble with you, except I have.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, we pass between our
15 offices pleadings back and forth.
16 THE COURT: Yes, come to think of it, I get
17 enclosures.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: Not attachments. I mean, if
20 something comes to me and it's part of an E-Mail, it
21 isn't pretty like this.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But if it's --
23 THE COURT: This is weird. But if I get it as
24 an enclosure and I pull it up, then it can be
25 perfect.
196
1 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
2 THE COURT: That is all I know. And I don't
3 know the difference or anything of the sort, but if
4 it is a little icon on the bottom and I click on
5 that, it's like this. If it comes as part of an
6 E-Mail that something that it look likes 145, weird,
7 something you couldn't use. Why that is, you need a
8 computer man to explain it to us.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 Do you know how to do an enclosure?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
12 THE COURT: So 146 could be an enclosure?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it can.
14 THE COURT: Maybe when you say attachment, you
15 mean the same thing.
16 THE WITNESS: I believe he does.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I believe I do.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Then, I'm sorry, I think
19 of -- I have always been told you have to enclose
20 it, so I'm showing my ignorance.
21 MR. WEINBERG: My level of knowledge of
22 computers, I think, is lower than yours, so -- my
23 kids can --
24 THE COURT: I feel sorry for you.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I know. Yes, my kids feel sorry
197
1 for me.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Let me show you what we'll mark -- I don't need to
4 mark it. We'll give you a copy --
5 THE COURT: So can we assume Number 146 then is
6 not -- see, I can't find mine, but this is not the
7 filed version?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Right, it was an attachment to
9 what I'm going to show you and Mr. Dandar, right
10 now, as I understand it.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q We'll go to the file copy, Mr. Dandar, and show
14 you that.
15 But does this refresh your recollection on or
16 about September 7, 1999 you filed a motion to file amended
17 complaint to allege claim for punitive damages and motion to
18 add party defendants which would include Mr. Miscavige,
19 Mr. Minton and Mr. Rathbun, and that as part of that motion
20 you attached a draft of a complaint dated the day before,
21 9/6/99?
22 A That is most likely.
23 THE COURT: Does it say that? I mean, I just
24 don't know the answer to that. Does it say that in
25 this motion? Normally, if you're going to attach
198
1 something, you're going to refer to it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: We'll get the motion. But that
3 is what happened.
4 THE COURT: Well --
5 MR. WEINBERG: That is how we got it.
6 THE COURT: Is it Exhibit E, Exhibit F -- I'm
7 just saying is it listed as an exhibit? Yes,
8 Proposed Amendment, Exhibit A.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge.
10 THE COURT: Normally, you would have that under
11 a tab, I suppose, or have it noted Exhibit A for the
12 record.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to actually mark this
14 as our next exhibit, this actual motion, if it is
15 okay.
16 THE COURT: What is that?
17 MR. WEINBERG: That is 147, the one I just
18 handed you.
19 THE COURT: Is that the motion to file amended
20 complaint?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q So to eliminate all of the confusion here, you
24 filed a motion to add parties on September 7 attaching to it
25 as an exhibit a draft of a fifth amended complaint with this
199
1 date at the top left-hand corner which says 9/6/99.
2 Correct?
3 A No. Unless I see my file or the court file, I
4 can't say that. But most likely it looks -- I'm surprised I
5 would have a date up there.
6 Q Okay. But you're not suggesting that anybody
7 other than your office prepared a fifth amended complaint in
8 whatever form, are you?
9 A Right. Right. I just -- if I just saw my file or
10 the court file, then I could answer it 100 percent.
11 Q So that E-Mail attachment draft, whatever it is,
12 that I -- that I showed you with the August date at the top,
13 that may well be -- emanate from your office and be an
14 earlier draft of what was going to be the fifth amended
15 complaint. Correct?
16 A It's possible. It's possible. But this
17 formatting and -- this doesn't look like an E-Mail. This
18 looks like someone attempted to scan it. And it looks like
19 it comes off the Internet somewhere. But I just can't
20 imagine what this is.
21 Q Now, if you look at that draft which is Exhibit --
22 A 145.
23 THE COURT: 145.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q -- 145, that -- well, if you look at the 9/6/99
200
1 draft of the fifth amended complaint, that has the end of
2 cycle allegation in it, correct?
3 THE COURT: Tell him where.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q At Number 34? Paragraph 34?
6 THE COURT: Of what number now?
7 MR. WEINBERG: 146, which is the version that
8 was filed with the motion.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q That has end cycle in Paragraph 34. Right?
11 A Right.
12 Q That has the allegations about letting her die,
13 essentially, correct?
14 A Right.
15 Q Now, in Exhibit 146 --
16 A We are on 146.
17 Q 145, I mean --
18 A You want to know if it's in there?
19 THE COURT: Well, who would know --
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q It's not in there, is it?
22 THE COURT: -- unless he takes the time to read
23 it. Tell us what paragraph it is that matches up to
24 this paragraph. That might help.
25 MR. WEINBERG: 33, I think, matches up, I
201
1 think, with that paragraph.
2 A Well, 34 in the August one, which is 145, is the
3 same as 35 in the September one.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Right?
6 A So what is the question?
7 Q But the end of cycle which is 33, the August one,
8 I mean, that paragraph, that is most like 34 in the
9 September one, that is Paragraph 33, see, it talks about
10 extremist medical condition, it doesn't have end cycle, does
11 it?
12 A I'm still looking for 33 in Exhibit 145. I see --
13 oh, there --
14 THE COURT: Counsel, we'll have to do the same
15 thing with him I had the courtesy to do with the
16 witness earlier. He can take it home with him and
17 you can move on so we don't have to sit and go
18 through these things. I'll take it home, he can
19 take it home, and we can move on.
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is fine.
21 THE COURT: Then you can answer this question
22 tomorrow, Mr. Dandar.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: The same would be true of any other
25 large document. There is no time for him to sit and
202
1 read it.
2 MR. WEINBERG: That is fair.
3 A But it does not have end cycle in it.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q When you come back tomorrow, after having read it,
6 making sure you are right, then I'll ask you a few questions
7 about that.
8 A I'll check my office file, too.
9 THE COURT: If you are comfortable it doesn't
10 have it, go ahead and answer the questions.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, it doesn't. What he has
12 shown me, Exhibit 145, Paragraph 33, does not use
13 the parens and include the word "End cycle" as does
14 Exhibit 146.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q And do you know what happened between August 30,
17 1999 and September 6, 1999 so that end cycle got into the
18 complaint?
19 A No. I can speculate that I sat down with Jesse
20 Prince. But other than that, I can't tell you.
21 But I can tell you one thing. Mr. Minton had
22 nothing to do with this, for sure, 100 percent.
23 Q Now, when you have an opportunity, would you check
24 to confirm the August 30, 1999 document was a draft produced
25 in your office?
203
1 A I'll do my best. But like I said, this looks like
2 someone trying to scan something. It's just terrible.
3 THE COURT: Do lawyers keep drafts of pleadings
4 when they file the regular pleadings?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, usually on the computer,
6 actually.
7 THE COURT: Well, check and see if you have got
8 it.
9 THE WITNESS: I will.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Are you able to check whether you E-mailed it to
12 anyone?
13 A No. I don't keep that.
14 Q Okay.
15 A That is highly unlikely I did.
16 Q Now, changing subjects now, you incorporated the
17 LMT, is that right?
18 A But can I interrupt you? It is obvious from this
19 Exhibit 145, in comparing it with 146, 145 is definitely not
20 an attachment to an E-Mail. It's something that looks like
21 someone tried to scan and didn't know what they were doing.
22 Q And if Mr. Minton were to come in and say he
23 received it from you in E-Mail form, he would just be
24 mistaken?
25 A Terribly, unless he could show me proof.
204
1 Q And if he could show you proof, then you would be
2 mistaken?
3 A I would be mistaken, surprised, bewildered, all of
4 the above.
5 Q Now, going to a different subject, you
6 incorporated the LMT on or about October 19, 1999?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And --
9 A As the attorney incorporating it, yes.
10 Q And Dell Liebreich authorized you to do that,
11 correct?
12 A No. She had nothing to do with it at all.
13 Q Did she authorize the use of Lisa McPherson's name
14 in the Lisa McPherson Trust that you incorporated?
15 A With great hesitation. She just said "Okay." I
16 asked Mr. Minton not to do this at all, but he just said he
17 was going to do it.
18 Q Who asked Mr. Minton not to do it?
19 A I did.
20 Q Well, when did that conversation take place?
21 A While this was all going on. While we were racing
22 the clock with Bennetta Slaughter, while she had her
23 attorneys use the Lisa McPherson name -- four or five
24 names -- in incorporation.
25 I said, "Look, don't use her name. Just call it
205
1 something else."
2 Q And you didn't want Mr. Minton to establish the
3 Lisa McPherson Trust because, what?
4 A Because there was no need for him to use Lisa
5 McPherson's name.
6 Q So you just wanted to use a different name?
7 A Well, he was going to do whatever he wanted to do.
8 He had no lawyer. He asked me to help him. I said okay.
9 And he did what he wanted to do.
10 Q But if you were against it and your client wasn't
11 enthusiastic about it, couldn't you have stopped it?
12 A Well, actually, not legally.
13 Q Well, you certainly didn't have to do the
14 incorporation papers?
15 A Yes, but there was no reason to smack the guy in
16 the face and not do the incorporation papers if he's going
17 to do it anyway. I mean, '99, he was a great help to us, to
18 me, with this case. So I wasn't going to kick him out of my
19 office. He was going to do it. He was intent on doing
20 this.
21 Q Well, regardless of the name, whether it was Lisa
22 McPherson, or Ken Dandar, or Sandy Weinberg Trust or
23 whatever else, regardless of the name, were you enthusiastic
24 about the concept of creating an organization that could
25 reside in Clearwater, Florida, right literally in the face
206
1 of the Church of Scientology, to promote the cause, so to
2 speak?
3 A No.
4 Q So you were --
5 A Do you want to define cause? Well, I was never
6 enthusiastic about any of this. But I could tell you what I
7 thought was a good idea.
8 Q Well, what did you think was a good idea?
9 A A good idea was to help people who wanted to leave
10 the Church of Scientology and they had nowhere to go, they
11 had no former Scientologists who would sit down and counsel
12 with them and help them. They had nobody who would -- like
13 hundreds of thousands of dollars they wanted to get back for
14 whatever reason, they didn't know how to go about doing
15 that.
16 Some people, some attorneys, knew how to do it.
17 Not me.
18 But mostly the counseling. The counseling of
19 people who were in desperate need for counseling.
20 Q So what was a bad idea that Mr. Minton went ahead
21 and did that you didn't like?
22 A Well, the picketing, as Ms. Brooks testified in
23 this court. She and I were adamantly against his picketing
24 and his carrying on and his nonsense.
25 Q You were against the picketing?
207
1 A Oh, yeah.
2 Q And you had any number of conversations with
3 Mr. Minton about the picketing?
4 A Oh, yes. Many.
5 Q What? Face-to-face?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Well, in your office?
8 A Maybe. But mostly at the LMT.
9 Q So you actually had meetings with Mr. Minton at
10 the LMT?
11 A Not meetings. I happened to be there. I saw him,
12 for instance, with that outrageous Nazi picket sign. I
13 said, "You're not going outside with that."
14 He said, "Try to stop me."
15 And Stacy Brooks said, "Don't you go outside with
16 that Nazi sign."
17 He said, "I made it, I'm proud of it, I'm going to
18 use it." So what are you going to do, tackle him?
19 Q Well, you didn't have to stand in the picture with
20 him, holding signs like that, did you?
21 A It was not a picket. That was after a criminal
22 hearing which I think he prevailed in. And we just happened
23 to take photographs. And that is not the Nazi sign I'm
24 talking about.
25 Q You mean there were more than one Nazi sign?
208
1 A Right. There was one that was really offensive
2 that had the Swastika on it and something else. I think it
3 said -- it even had the word "Nazi" on it.
4 Q Well, weren't a lot of the signs that Mr. Minton,
5 Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince, and other people that were
6 associated with your side of the case -- weren't a number of
7 the signs that they were carrying over the years offensive?
8 A No, they were exercising their First Amendment
9 rights, as your client does. And it all depends on your
10 viewpoint of what is offensive.
11 The Nazi sign was offensive to me. It was
12 offensive to Ms. Brooks. It was offensive to other people.
13 Q Let me put --
14 A If you show me holding the picture of a Nazi sign,
15 well, I'll be bewildered.
16 THE COURT: I don't want to get into this
17 courtroom as to what sign is offensive because the
18 question is always to whom.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
20 THE COURT: I mean, I assume all those signs
21 would be offensive to any member of the Church.
22 What might be offensive to any member of the Church
23 might be offensive to me or it might not be. And it
24 might be offensive to someone else. It really
25 doesn't matter.
209
1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
2 THE COURT: I mean, offensive is in the eyes of
3 the beholder. Some things I think clearly could be
4 offensive to anyone. To anyone. But --
5 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q In any event, when you incorporated, I guess over
8 some protest, the Lisa McPherson Trust, you incorporated it
9 as a for profit corporation -- a for profit corporation,
10 correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, you had discussions with Mr. Minton about
13 whether it should be for profit or not for profit. Correct?
14 A Yes. I asked him why he was doing it for profit.
15 That was his decision.
16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I want to stop you just
17 a minute because I'm not sure what I'm to do with
18 this. This is a book you gave me. Was this in
19 evidence? Or is this something --
20 MR. WEINBERG: No, it was just easier to deal
21 with. But you know what, why don't I leave it back
22 here and bring it up when I refer to it?
23 THE COURT: You know what, I might keep it
24 because I can't find my fifth amended complaint.
25 MR. WEINBERG: No?
210
1 THE COURT: But this was just to be used when
2 you may use it again?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It just has, I think,
4 all of the versions that were either filed or
5 attached to motions to file. I think those were all
6 of the versions.
7 THE COURT: One of the versions that I didn't
8 have, so I guess I will keep this, although now you
9 are saying there are a bunch of different fifth
10 amended complaints, the only fifth amended complaint
11 I had seen from Mr. Fugate was the fifth amended
12 complaint that was, in fact, the complaint that
13 everybody is traveling on in this case.
14 MR. FUGATE: That is correct, Judge.
15 THE COURT: Whatever else went, I don't have.
16 I have the first amended, second, third, fourth and
17 fifth that is in existence.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: So if there are others -- I'll keep
20 this.
21 MR. WEINBERG: There are.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: There were various iterations
24 that ended up in what we have now.
25 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't know there was a
211
1 fifth amended complaint not accepted, but I know the
2 second was accepted. But if there were more --
3 MR. WEINBERG: There were some in between, and
4 ultimately we have what we have now.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Which was that January 20th
7 clerk-stamp thing.
8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry, now get back to
9 wherever you were.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually, I wanted to --
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q So this didn't pass. I heard what you said about
13 the things being offensive to you.
14 Let me show you what is already in evidence as
15 Defendant's Exhibit 74, which is -- which is you,
16 Mr. Minton, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince and Mike Garko, your
17 trial team, and you are standing there in a picture with I
18 think a Nazi sign. And that certainly looks like
19 "Scientology, Hubbard's Third Reich," then it says, "Lisa's
20 blood on Scientology's hands."
21 My question to you is regardless of who that is
22 offensive to, wasn't that offensive to you?
23 A No, all I know, I was coming out of the courtroom,
24 Bob Minton or Jesse said, "Come on over for a picture," they
25 took our picture and we left. There is nothing planned
212
1 about this. There was no organization. It was just a
2 snapshot.
3 THE COURT: I also want to correct something
4 you said. Mr. Minton testified that those -- that
5 those things on there are Scientology things. Now,
6 I don't know if he's right or not, but whatever
7 those signs are -- on one it says, "Scientology,
8 Hubbard's Third Reich." I believe he was saying
9 that -- I don't know what they are.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's saying that
11 the -- the symbols are not Swastikas but I think
12 Third Reich was --
13 THE COURT: Right.
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- was referring to it.
15 THE COURT: But the symbols, I believe he said,
16 were Scientology symbols.
17 MR. WEINBERG: He did.
18 MR. FUGATE: Yes, he said there were marks he
19 put on there himself.
20 THE COURT: Right. Right.
21 THE WITNESS: His expression on this particular
22 sign is that there is no freedom in Scientology,
23 just like there wasn't any in Nazi Germany. That is
24 why he made this particular sign. But this is not
25 the sign I'm talking about.
213
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q So this sign, you were comfortable with it?
3 A No, I wasn't comfortable with it. It was another
4 one that was just totally not in good taste.
5 Q Now, going back to the LMT, Mr. Minton funded the
6 LMT, correct?
7 A As far as I know.
8 Q And what was the reason -- now we're going to get
9 into the questions where we started to get sidetracked.
10 You said Mr. Minton explained to you why it was
11 for profit and not not for profit. And his reason was what?
12 A For privacy, to keep Scientology out of his
13 financial affairs in the corporation.
14 Q Did you tell him and discuss with him the fact
15 that when and if it ever came to pass that the sisters would
16 donate a part of the proceeds from this litigation to --
17 from the wrongful death case to the Lisa McPherson Trust,
18 that it would then -- that you would then convert it from a
19 for profit to a not for profit? Did you-all discuss that?
20 A No. Then Scientology can find all of the
21 contributors. So that wasn't discussed.
22 THE COURT: Can I ask you one question? I'm
23 not sure if I have this down right or not.
24 Mr. Minton wanted to be for profit so
25 Scientology could stay out of, what, LMT's financial
214
1 business?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: Or his, Mr. Minton's, financial
4 business?
5 THE WITNESS: LMT.
6 THE COURT: LMT?
7 THE WITNESS: They couldn't get public
8 documents showing how much money went into a private
9 corporation.
10 THE COURT: If it is nonprofit, you have a lot
11 more access to contributors and this type of thing?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, as far as I know.
13 THE COURT: I'm curious. But isn't it a little
14 more difficult to do a nonprofit? I mean, you can't
15 just because you want to run up to Tallahassee and
16 get a nonprofit. Don't you get permission from the
17 IRS --
18 THE WITNESS: I did one only twenty years ago
19 and it was a missionary group. It was tremendous.
20 THE COURT: So if he -- Mr. Minton was in a
21 rush to try to beat somebody, he had to do it for
22 profit for that reason, too, I think.
23 THE WITNESS: It wasn't discussed. But you are
24 right.
25
215
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Did you discuss with him that some day it would --
3 it may well be converted to a nonprofit?
4 A No. That is ridiculous. That would defeat the
5 whole purpose.
6 Q Well, would it be ridiculous, if somebody were
7 donating a bunch of money to it, that it be converted to
8 nonprofit so you get a tax deduction?
9 A As long as it had anything to do with exposing
10 Scientology abuse, it would be ridiculous.
11 Q I'm sorry. I didn't hear that.
12 A As long as it had anything to do with exposing
13 Scientology abuse, it would be ridiculous.
14 Q Why is that? I don't follow you.
15 A Because then they would find out the financial
16 condition, they would get this -- there is a form that you
17 are allowed to copy of a nonprofit that discloses how much
18 is paid to officers and how much the contributions are and
19 money on hand. Again, I'm not a tax expert so I'm speaking
20 out of turn.
21 Q Is this something you do on regular basis,
22 incorporate companies for people?
23 A I have. It's not on a regular basis, but I have
24 done probably, I don't know, two dozen, in twenty years
25 plus.
216
1 Q And did you do this gratis for Mr. Minton, or did
2 you charge him for it?
3 A I didn't charge him for it. This is '99. He has
4 given me, what, over a million dollars? I don't think I
5 would charge him for it.
6 Q Let me show you what we'll mark as 148.
7 THE COURT: This extra picture, do you want it
8 back?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
10 THE COURT: Because I already have it.
11 MR. WEINBERG: It's already in evidence.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q I show you what we've marked as Defendant's
14 Exhibit 148. Now, Defendant's 148 is a posting by
15 Mr. Minton dated 11/3/2000.
16 And I just refer you to the next-to-last page at
17 the bottom --
18 A The tab?
19 Q -- where it is tabbed. And there are a bunch of
20 questions, "Frequently Asked Questions about the Lisa
21 McPherson Trust" is the title of this thing.
22 But at the end it says, "Is the Lisa McPherson
23 Trust nonprofit?"
24 And Mr. Minton says, "Solely to protect the
25 privacy of financial supporters of the Lisa McPherson Trust,
217
1 we are registered as a for profit company. If we were
2 required to report the names of our contributors, we would
3 run the risk that Scientology could find out their
4 identities. They would then be subjected to harassment and
5 intimidation to punish them for supporting the LMT."
6 Then he says, "At some point in the future the LMT
7 may become a nonprofit organization."
8 But you didn't have that conversation with him
9 about it converting to a nonprofit down the road?
10 A No. This is a year after it was incorporated. It
11 speaks for itself. That is his thoughts a year later.
12 Q Okay. Now --
13 THE COURT: Is that a number, Counselor?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I put a number on it.
15 THE WITNESS: 148.
16 MR. WEINBERG: 148.
17 THE COURT: Are you moving these things into
18 evidence as we go?
19 MR. WEINBERG: I move -- yes, I'll move what I
20 marked into evidence, yes.
21 THE COURT: You need to do it one at a time
22 because, frankly, if there is an objection, we need
23 to hear it.
24 Mr. Lirot, do you have any objection to any of
25 these things?
218
1 MR. LIROT: I have no objection.
2 THE COURT: But in the future, if you want to
3 move them in, just move them in.
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I'm glad we don't have to go back.
6 That is 145, 146, 147 and 148.
7 THE WITNESS: 145 hasn't really been identified
8 by me, subject to me going back tonight, tomorrow
9 morning, and checking it out.
10 THE COURT: What is 145?
11 THE WITNESS: That is this crazy complaint.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Draft complaint that has 8/30/99
13 on it.
14 THE COURT: Yes, 145, you are right, at this
15 point in time, I suppose -- well, it's in for
16 whatever.
17 THE WITNESS: Whatever?
18 THE COURT: It has not been authenticated,
19 frankly, what it is, but it is in, just like a lot
20 of this stuff is in. We just have to figure out
21 what value, if any, to place on it. Well, we don't.
22 I do.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Now, from time -- let me ask you about some folks
25 that were affiliated with the LMT. You filed some witness
219
1 lists in this case. Is that right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you filed an April 17, 2000 witness list which
4 I'll hand up in a second, and you filed most recently, on
5 April 24, 2002, an amended witness list. Is that right?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. WEINBERG: And we will have the clerk mark
8 as 149 the witness list from 2000, and as 150 the
9 witness list from 2002.
10 THE COURT: Were there three?
11 MR. WEINBERG: There are two. Did I hand you
12 three?
13 THE COURT: No. You gave me two. I thought
14 you said there were three.
15 MR. WEINBERG: No. There are two. The first
16 one which is dated April of -- April 17 of 2000, is
17 149.
18 And the second one, which is dated this year,
19 April of 2002, is 150.
20 THE COURT: They are both April of 2002. One
21 is the 17th and one is the 24th, is that right?
22 THE WITNESS: No. One is 2000.
23 THE COURT: I'm sorry.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 149 is April 17 of 2000.
25 THE COURT: The one I'm looking at is the 24th
220
1 of April, 2002.
2 MR. WEINBERG: That is 150.
3 THE COURT: That is 150?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right, Exhibit 150. Then there
5 is 149 is April of 2000. Do you have that one? Did
6 I give you two of the same?
7 THE COURT: You must have given me two of the
8 same one.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. That wasn't too smart.
10 Here is the 2000 one. Give me one of those
11 back.
12 THE COURT: Yes, these are different.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
14 THE COURT: No wonder you try to confuse me.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not trying to confuse. I
16 already confused myself.
17 THE COURT: Okay, now I have them. Tell me
18 which is which. The 17th of April, 2000 is what
19 number?
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is 149 -- I believe that is
21 149.
22 THE COURT: And the one that is 2002 is number
23 150?
24 MR. WEINBERG: 150.
25 THE COURT: All right. We're all on the same
221
1 page.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, the -- there was a trial date back in 2000
4 where the first time we were thinking about having a trial
5 would have been June of 2000. Correct?
6 A We stipulated to it, six weeks in June of 2000.
7 Q Right. Prior to that time, just prior, April 17
8 of 2000, you filed Exhibit 149 which was notice of filing
9 plaintiff's witness list. Correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And then 150 is your most recent plaintiff's
12 witness list. Correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now --
15 THE COURT: Are these the only two?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Of the plaintiff's.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Of the plaintiff's.
21 I move these into evidence. And I was going to
22 ask a question about them.
23 MR. LIROT: No objection.
24 THE COURT: It will be received -- they will be
25 received.
222
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now, there were a number of witnesses on both your
3 witness list in 2000 and your most recent witness list of
4 people that were employed at the LMT and/or sat on the board
5 or advisory board of the LMT. Correct?
6 A There were a few.
7 Q Well, let's -- let's go down the list. And on
8 149, this is in -- this is your 2000 witness list, on the
9 first page, Number 10, Gerald Armstrong. He was affiliated
10 with the LMT, wasn't he?
11 A I think he was on an advisory board, if --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- I'm not mistaken.
14 Q Then if we go to Number 31 on that list, Jesse
15 Prince, he was certainly affiliated with the LMT. Correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Marjorie Wakefield, she was affiliated with the
18 LMT, wasn't she?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Do you need to look at the Lisa McPherson Trust
21 list, the advisory committee list?
22 A Yes. If it is on there -- you tell me it's on
23 there, I'll agree with you.
24 Q It is on there, Defense Exhibit 81, "Marjorie
25 Wakefield, Advisory Committee."
223
1 A Okay.
2 THE COURT: Who is she? I never heard of her.
3 MR. WEINBERG: She's a former Scientologist.
4 THE COURT: I know. But why is she on your
5 witness list?
6 THE WITNESS: She, I believe, had a similar
7 experience to Lisa McPherson.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Number 65, Teresa Summers --
10 A Yes?
11 Q -- she was actually employed at the LMT, correct?
12 A At the time this was filed, that is correct --
13 well, wait. No. No. Wait a minute. No, that is not true.
14 I've got to look at their deposition date that I took. I
15 don't think she had anything to do with the LMT at this
16 time.
17 THE COURT: Why is -- what is she on your
18 witness list for?
19 THE WITNESS: She was a former Sea Org member
20 at Flag.
21 THE COURT: I know. But this case, what was
22 she on this case for?
23 THE WITNESS: She was going to talk about her
24 experience with end cycle; having someone die,
25 helping someone die who has a terminal illness.
224
1 There are actually policies written on that. And
2 she was going to talk about the income Flag was
3 generating per week, because at this time we had
4 punitive damages. She was the commanding officer at
5 Flag for several months. And I believe she left in
6 '98 as a Sea Org member, if I'm not mistaken.
7 THE COURT: So it was for your punitive
8 damages?
9 THE WITNESS: Punitive damages, and the
10 policies on helping someone with a terminal illness
11 to die.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Then number 68, Dan Leipold, he was on the
15 advisory committee of the LMT, correct?
16 A Right. And he was a witness, not -- never
17 co-counsel.
18 Q But you listed him as a witness. That is what I'm
19 asking you.
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Now, if you go to 150, which is the most recent
22 filing, correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q If you go to Page 2, Number 10, you have Peter
25 Alexander --
225
1 THE COURT: Could I ask one question? I'm
2 sorry.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, ma'am.
4 THE COURT: At the time this trial was going,
5 had the counterclaim been filed? I have just
6 forgotten.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It was filed on May 4 --
9 MR. MOXON: It was an affirmative defense at
10 that time.
11 THE COURT: But not nearly as elaborate as the
12 counterclaim, as I recall.
13 MR. MOXON: Yes.
14 THE COURT: So the counterclaim was not filed
15 when the first trial was contemplated?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It was a year later in
17 May.
18 THE COURT: And when this was filed, out of
19 curiosity, I had severed the counterclaim so I'm
20 assuming this witness list dealt with the wrongful
21 death?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. WEINBERG: When you say this witness list,
25 you are talking about 150, the April of 2002 --
226
1 THE COURT: Right, 150.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q If you go to April of 2002, go to witness number
4 10, that is Peter Alexander. He's on the board of directors
5 of the LMT, right?
6 A He was until he was asked to leave.
7 Q Right. But --
8 A Yes.
9 Q Oh -- but he was on the board of directors and he
10 was the producer of The Profit, as well, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And then Number 27, David Cecere, you have listed
13 as a witness this April?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q He was affiliated with the LMT. Right?
16 A He was fired by the LMT. Yes.
17 Q He was actually an employee. Correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And then on Number 45, Maria Pia Gardini, she was
20 affiliated with the LMT, wasn't she?
21 A I don't think so.
22 Q Well, what is she on there for, by the way?
23 A She is a former --
24 THE COURT: You know what, in a way -- well, I
25 guess we can do this. This is a little free
227
1 discovery here. We might as well.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I only have a few, I mean --
3 THE COURT: Yes, I don't know who she is,
4 either.
5 A She's an Italian physician who is a former
6 Scientologist, former staff member at Flag, who has personal
7 knowledge of isolation watches taking place only at the
8 Hacienda, the staffing berthing, in a particular room which
9 is a small room with bars on the windows so no one can
10 leave, and cockroach-infested Hacienda where the staff is
11 berthed. That is why she's on the list.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Okay, Number 69, Frank Oliver, you say "Former
14 Scientologist." He was affiliated with the LMT. Correct?
15 A You know, I can't say yes or no to that. If it is
16 on the LMT paper, though, I'll go with that. But I don't --
17 I don't --
18 Q Did you ever meet Frank Oliver over at the LMT?
19 A Sure, I did. He picketed. I met him in the
20 offices over there when I dropped in. But he's from Miami,
21 so I can't say what he has to do with the LMT.
22 Q And then '97, you have Teresa Summers again. And
23 at this time, certainly she had been an employee of the LMT,
24 correct?
25 A Yes, but she quit. So she's a disaffected -- if
228
1 that is the word to use -- LMT member. Former LMT member.
2 Q Then 103, you have Marjorie Wakefield still on
3 there. And she was part of the LMT. Right?
4 A If you say -- I mean, if the document says she
5 was, then, fine, I have no personal recollection.
6 Q Okay.
7 THE COURT: So you listed 109 witnesses, and
8 you have got, golly, "All witnesses identified in
9 depositions, interrogatories, all witnesses on
10 defendant's witness list," then you have 10 experts
11 and one, two, three, four, five, six main defendants
12 associated with LMT.
13 You said you didn't know about Maria Pia
14 Gardini -- sorry, ma'am. I'm sure I said that
15 wrong.
16 THE WITNESS: I think you did that right,
17 Judge.
18 THE COURT: Did I? Okay. And you aren't
19 positive about Marjorie Wakefield?
20 THE WITNESS: Well, only as -- I am positive if
21 I can either play her video deposition or --
22 THE COURT: No, no, you are not positive if she
23 is connected with LMT?
24 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
229
1 THE WITNESS: I mean, the paperwork by LMT will
2 disclose the names of those people.
3 THE COURT: Right. Is it true -- I don't know
4 myself, is this Maria Pia part of LMT? I never
5 heard of her until this very moment.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm under the impression
7 that her way was paid by the LMT to bring her from
8 Italy here for purposes of the case.
9 THE COURT: Is she on this list you have here,
10 this all-inclusive list?
11 THE WITNESS: She's on my list.
12 THE COURT: Number 81? No, she's not.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No, she's not 81.
14 THE COURT: How about this other lady?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Marjorie Wakefield, that is what
16 I'm about to hand up.
17 THE COURT: Is she on this, Number 81?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, right here, on the advisory
19 committee.
20 THE COURT: On the advisory committee? Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: Maria Pia Gardini was never
22 brought here for this case, although I did have the
23 opportunity to meet her, but not for this case.
24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'm not sure if it
25 matters so much if Ms. Pia Gardini is or isn't, but
230
1 at least she's not on 81 as a member of the board or
2 advisory committee member.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q By the way, on that April of 2002 list, that is
5 when you first identified Bill Franks as your Scientology
6 expert, correct, April 17, 2002?
7 A That is correct.
8 THE COURT: Is he listed under the expert
9 witnesses?
10 THE WITNESS: No, he's not.
11 MR. WEINBERG: But it says here --
12 THE WITNESS: But it does say -- call him a
13 Scientology expert.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Number 44, Judge, on that
15 Exhibit 150, it says, "Scientology experts." See
16 that?
17 THE COURT: No. I'm looking, Number 40 what?
18 MR. WEINBERG: 44.
19 THE COURT: Is Mr. Prince on here?
20 THE WITNESS: I'm just looking for that right
21 now. I can't see him. But he should be on there.
22 Well, at this time he was still -- I just
23 recently was able to convince him to come back.
24 MR. WEINBERG: He did not list Mr. Prince on
25 this one, I don't believe. But he did list
231
1 Mr. Franks, Number 44.
2 THE COURT: Well, I have news for you. There
3 are a lot of people on this witness list that I dare
4 say will not testify. Here is Mr. Miscavige listed.
5 I suspect -- do you have him under subpoena?
6 THE WITNESS: No. There are a lot of people
7 that will not testify.
8 THE COURT: Right. So, I mean, I don't know
9 exactly what -- maybe if we ever get to a case
10 management conference, we'll discuss these people.
11 But I do see that Bill Franks is listed as a
12 Scientology expert. It's odd, if he's a Scientology
13 expert, I'm not sure why he's not down under expert
14 witnesses.
15 THE WITNESS: You are right. And I need to add
16 on Jesse Prince. So I need -- I'll file an amended
17 one.
18 THE COURT: You better file an amended one.
19 THE WITNESS: Mr. --
20 THE COURT: I see a whole lot of former
21 Scientologists listed, a whole lot of them. And I
22 guarantee you that we're going to go through what,
23 if any, relevance they have and, if so, what it is.
24 And a lot of them may be limited, too. But that is
25 for another day, maybe.
232
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Talking about Mr. Franks for a moment, did you
3 have any conversations with him prior to putting him on this
4 list?
5 THE COURT: If that has something to do with
6 whether or not there is an agreement, if it has
7 something to do with whether or not he lied under
8 oath, I can't have you going into his trial strategy
9 and all that sort of stuff.
10 If it has something to do with the three things
11 that have been identified, you can ask that. If
12 not, you cannot.
13 MR. WEINBERG: We can wait. He said he's going
14 to call Mr. Franks, so we can find out when
15 Mr. Franks takes the stand.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Now, you had telephone communications, both from
18 your cell phone and your office and your home, to the LMT.
19 Correct?
20 A I doubt I had it from my home.
21 Q And there was telephone communication from the
22 LMT, from the various folks at the LMT, to various of your
23 numbers, including your cell phone, your office number, and
24 I think you'll find on those -- those records there are a
25 few to your home number.
233
1 A Okay.
2 Q Have you had a chance to go through or have
3 somebody from your office go through that big folder there
4 with the tabbed phone calls --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- from LMT?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And did you -- did you identify that there are
9 approximately 494 calls from the LMT to you -- to either
10 your cell phone or your office phone or your home?
11 A Well, I think that number, quantity, is correct.
12 I actually had someone prepare a chart for you and for the
13 Judge, which I'll have here tomorrow, that shows the
14 percentages of which person's cell phone was being used to
15 call me.
16 Q Well, how do you know whose cell phone it was, by
17 the way?
18 A Because I know Jesse Prince's cell phone number, I
19 know Stacy Brooks's cell phone number. For sure, those two.
20 Q And do you know the one Mr. Minton used at the
21 LMT?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know he used Unit 1?
24 A I'm not sure. Did he say that? I don't know.
25 Q I'm asking you.
234
1 A No, I don't know.
2 Q Well, this chart that you are -- I guess we'll see
3 it tomorrow, but this chart, does it identify all of the
4 eleven cell phones at the LMT?
5 A Yes. Yes. And if someone had told us which phone
6 number Mr. Minton used, then I would be able to put that on
7 the list.
8 But I know for sure Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks.
9 And I know Jesse Prince, I believe, is 56 percent of the
10 time, 56 percent of --
11 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton -- excuse me a
12 second -- I think we're well past the question -- I
13 thought Mr. Minton testified he didn't use one of
14 LMT's cell phones for his own, he just picked one up
15 when he was in there. He had his own cell phone.
16 MR. WEINBERG: He had his own cell phone. But
17 I believe he said, when he was down here, he used
18 one of the LMT phones.
19 THE COURT: Right, sometimes. But he didn't
20 tote around an LMT cell phone, he had his own cell
21 phone. When he was around or --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
23 THE COURT: Or he would use one of his own --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Particularly he said he used
25 Unit 1.
235
1 THE COURT: I don't remember that, but if you
2 say he said it, I don't doubt it.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I think he said it.
4 THE COURT: Because I am sure you have reviewed
5 the transcripts and I have not.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q All right. Well, in any event, there were a lot
8 of phone calls from the LMT phones to either your cell phone
9 or your office. Correct?
10 A There were a lot of cell phone calls from Stacy
11 Brooks, and mostly from Jesse Prince to me. And, of course,
12 cell phones, you don't know where they are when they're
13 using their phone. But that is the majority. I would get,
14 from time to time, calls from John Merrett, from either a
15 cell phone or a LMT landline. I would get calls from Dee
16 Phillips, who is the fiance of Jesse Prince.
17 THE COURT: Why don't we save this for tomorrow
18 when he has a chart? I think that would be nice.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And we have our own
20 chart.
21 THE COURT: Good. Then we can look at charts.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Color-coded charts.
23 THE WITNESS: I'll put color on mine.
24 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do this tomorrow. But let
25 me just identify these records now.
236
1 THE COURT: What records?
2 MR. WEINBERG: There is one other set of phone
3 records that will go on our chart, and I just wanted
4 to identify them. And that was -- you also had a
5 request for -- you also had a request for production
6 with regard to calls from your office to the LMT.
7 Correct?
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know. You have to show
9 me.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 THE COURT: Is it a good time to take a break?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, maybe so. I have a lot of
13 numbers to go through.
14 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 2:30 by
15 the courtroom clock.
16 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:12 to 2:40 p.m.)
17 ______________________________________
18 THE COURT: Okay. You know, I guess since I'm
19 getting these transcripts, I mean, I probably don't
20 have to make all these excessive notes I make.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Sometimes when I take notes, I
22 remember them better.
23 THE COURT: I think so.
24 MR. WEINBERG: This is my next exhibit. I have
25 premarked them with the clerk, 151A and B.
237
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Now, in addition to the request to admit where you
4 identified the calls from you to Mr. Minton, and in addition
5 to that folder of phone calls from the LMT records that are
6 already in evidence that we're going to talk about tomorrow,
7 we're -- I also want you to look at 151A and B, which I
8 believe are your responses: 151A, which is plaintiff's
9 supplemental response to second request for production of
10 documents to counterdefendant, which is dated --
11 THE COURT: Who is counterdefendant?
12 THE WITNESS: The estate.
13 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, this is in the
14 counterclaim. And we made a request to produce to
15 the estate, which is the counterdefendant.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Just for the record, 151B -- and that finally --
19 151A is dated January 17, 2002. Then 151B is the second
20 supplemental response to this same request for production
21 which was filed on January 28, 2002, signed -- both signed
22 by you, 151A and B. Correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And the combination of 151A and 151B is your --
25 your tabulation of phone calls that was initiated from
238
1 either your office or your personal cell phone to the LMT,
2 is that correct?
3 A The document speaks for itself. But that is what
4 it looks like.
5 Q Who did that tabulation?
6 A Donna West.
7 Q 151A -- you can look at this tonight -- but my
8 records indicate 42 calls from either your office number or
9 cell phone from February of 2000 until sometime in October
10 of 2001.
11 And 151B, according to my tabulation, sets forth a
12 log for an additional 32 calls between April 19, 2001 and
13 December 7, 2001.
14 A I wouldn't trust any Nextel bill that says one
15 minute because that is usually a minimum charge even if
16 there is no connection.
17 Q Okay. And this -- am I correct that as with the
18 other exhibit that we looked at, that the numbers that were
19 checked was your cell number and your office number?
20 A Well, Nextel, it is only cell number. So the
21 Nextel bills are only a -- part of 151A, and the other
22 one -- whatever exhibit it is, let's see -- it would be the
23 landline from my office to the Lisa McPherson Trust, which
24 says it could be the trust, Jesse Prince, or Mr. Merrett who
25 used the trust as his Clearwater office.
239
1 Q Okay. You also had calls from Mr. Minton from
2 your phone at the LMT. Correct?
3 A I don't know.
4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So I'll offer 151A
5 and 151B into evidence, your Honor.
6 MR. LIROT: No objection.
7 THE COURT: They will be received.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Now --
10 THE COURT: These, once again, just because I
11 don't have time to read the documents, are phone
12 calls he made from his cell phone or his office
13 number to LMT?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And, I mean, this is his
15 production. So it is whatever they can glean from
16 whoever's records they had. And there is some
17 explanation as to the limitations so far as the
18 records --
19 THE COURT: Some are not long distance and,
20 therefore, there would be no way to know, is that --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I think the explanation is for a
22 period of time, the Nextel numbers indicated the
23 calls, and at some period they didn't.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
240
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now, for your -- tonight, I want to give you the
3 opportunity to look at our compilation of these three sets
4 of records, the first request to produce which -- where you
5 listed your calls to Mr. Minton, the big production of the
6 LMT which is Exhibit -- which is Exhibit 97 which is behind
7 you where all those -- you know, those 600 -- or all those
8 494 calls. Then finally this Exhibit 151A and B. And --
9 A Well --
10 Q -- what we have produced we'll have marked as the
11 next exhibit.
12 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Dandar can take this
13 with him. And that will give him some -- and it is
14 a -- let me mark it as our next exhibit, 152.
15 And this goes together.
16 THE COURT: So that is a compilation of calls
17 from LMT to Mr. Dandar's and Mr. Minton's phones?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- well, no. What we've
19 done is so far in front of you, your Honor, is -- do
20 we have the exhibit number for the Dandar to Minton
21 calls? We'll pull that out.
22 What we've done is we've put together now three
23 sets of documents. We put together Defendant's
24 Exhibit 105, which is this exhibit where Mr. Dandar,
25 on the request to produce, identified calls from his
241
1 office to Mr. Minton.
2 We've put together Defendant's Exhibit 97,
3 which is those Nextel phone records behind
4 Mr. Dandar's head, with the 494 calls in it, your
5 Honor, which are the LMT calls -- from LMT to
6 Mr. Dandar, either cell phone -- you'll see three to
7 his home phone or to his office phone. There are
8 494 calls.
9 Then finally we have put in this list what we
10 just identified, which is 151A and B, which is
11 Mr. Dandar's response to the request to admit where
12 he has identified calls from his -- either his cell
13 phone or his office phone to LMT.
14 THE WITNESS: That is request for production,
15 not request for admission.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I mean request for production,
17 which is 151A and B which we just marked.
18 THE COURT: So 105 is Mr. Dandar's office or
19 cell numbers, right?
20 MR. WEINBERG: To Mr. Minton.
21 THE COURT: Right. 94 is LMT calls which were
22 all cell calls?
23 MR. WEINBERG: They are calls -- yes, they're
24 all the Nextel calls to either Mr. Dandar's cell
25 phone, his home phone, or his office phone.
242
1 THE COURT: So there are three, you say, to his
2 home. So the rest are all to his cell phone or
3 office phone?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Mostly to his cell phone,
5 but we've broken it out here.
6 THE COURT: And 151A and B are from
7 Mr. Dandar's office or cell to LMT?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Correct.
9 THE COURT: Okay. I got it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Now, in this exhibit, what we've
11 done -- in this exhibit what we've done, I have
12 marked this as 152 -- this actually goes with it --
13 this is your copy, you can take it home.
14 THE WITNESS: Well -- okay. I'm not taking
15 these 496 Nextel phone records home. I already
16 had --
17 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't tell you to take --
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: What we have done with you, let
20 me just go over with you and we'll go into detail
21 tomorrow once you bring whatever you have done.
22 The red numbers is Exhibit 105, which are the
23 Dandar to Minton calls that we talked about and
24 there are 77 of those.
25 The blue ones are what we just went over which
243
1 it turns out is Exhibit 151A and B, calls from
2 Mr. Dandar's cell or office to LMT.
3 And the black numbers represent those LMT
4 records of calls to Mr. Dandar. And we have further
5 broken those down because they're broken down in the
6 exhibit. There are 333 calls to Mr. Dandar's cell
7 phone, there is 3 to his home, and there is 158 to
8 the offices of Dandar & Dandar.
9 And if you add up the red ones, blue ones and
10 black ones, the total number of calls, by our
11 tabulation, is 634.
12 So what we've done, your Honor, is in
13 chronological order --
14 THE COURT: I think I can figure it out.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
16 THE COURT: I was looking at your legacy -- or
17 your legend. And I think it will be pretty obvious
18 for me to figure it out.
19 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
20 THE COURT: You can discuss it tomorrow.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I thought it would be fair if we
22 just gave it to him tonight.
23 THE COURT: Yes. I'll take it home and take a
24 look at it.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
244
1 THE COURT: If I don't understand it, why, I'll
2 let you know.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
4 THE COURT: And you can ask questions about it
5 tomorrow if you need to.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
7 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, if you have your
8 whatever it is you are preparing, if you want to
9 bring it in tomorrow --
10 THE WITNESS: I will --
11 THE COURT: -- that would be good. We can get
12 it all done at the same time.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Now, the numbers we operated off of, I want to
15 make sure these are correct --
16 THE COURT: I don't -- do we have to put his
17 cell numbers in the record? Or are they already in
18 the record?
19 THE WITNESS: I would hate for them to be in
20 the record.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Can I do this? Walk up, show
22 him these and ask him if they're correct.
23 THE COURT: Yes, you can. I don't know if they
24 are part of these documents. But the truth of the
25 matter is none of us likes our home number and stuff
245
1 like that readily available to the world.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Is that your cell number?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that your office number?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Is that your home number?
8 A That is my unlisted home number at home, yes. A
9 total of three calls. The problem is all these calls, we
10 just don't know who is at both ends of the phone.
11 Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said.
12 A With all these 600-plus calls, we don't know who
13 is on each end of the phone line, except I'm pretty sure
14 Jesse Prince's cell phone, he's on the end of the phone
15 line.
16 Q All right, we'll get back to that tomorrow. Okay?
17 A All right.
18 Q All right. Now, you testified earlier that you
19 had zero meetings, as you define meetings, with Mr. Minton
20 to discuss the case. Is that right?
21 A That is right.
22 Q But there were occasions when you met with or got
23 together with, in person, with Mr. Minton over -- between --
24 in 1997, '98, '99, 2000, 2001 and 2002, is that right?
25 A Just he and I?
246
1 Q You and Mr. Minton. Well, let's start with that,
2 just you and Mr. Minton.
3 A Well, there is one, in particular, and that is the
4 Bombay restaurant where I had lunch with him and then he
5 gave me the UBS check.
6 Other than that, I can't under oath tell you any
7 other time where I just met with Mr. Minton.
8 Q Now, what about Mr. Minton and other people?
9 A Well --
10 Q Did you have meetings -- well, I mean, you had
11 times when you met with Mr. Minton and other people,
12 including Ms. Brooks?
13 A You know, those times were really social
14 occasions: Dinner, lunch.
15 Q Well, did Mr. Minton ever go to your old address
16 on O'Brien?
17 A Sure.
18 Q Do you know how many times?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you remember the occasion?
21 A No. He would -- it was by the airport. He would
22 stop in leaving, or maybe he would stop in as he arrived.
23 Q Just to say hello?
24 A Just to say hello.
25 Q Not to talk about the case?
247
1 A No.
2 Q Never to talk about the case?
3 A No.
4 Q Did he go to your Kennedy address?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you know how many times?
7 A Not that many.
8 Q And I didn't ask you how many times at your
9 O'Brien address.
10 A I was there a while until '99, as I recall. He
11 went to the Kennedy address -- I was there two years -- just
12 a few times.
13 Q And the O'Brien address, more than a few?
14 A I wouldn't be able to tell you how many. I mean,
15 not a hundred. Maybe ten. I mean, I don't know.
16 Q What about the West Shore address? Did he ever go
17 to the West Shore address?
18 A No. We moved in there December of -- of 2001.
19 And I don't believe he was ever there.
20 Q How many times did you visit with Mr. Minton at
21 your house?
22 A Never.
23 Q At the LMT?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q Several dozen?
248
1 A Stop in, say hello, you know.
2 Q Well, it's not exactly around the corner from your
3 office, the LMT.
4 A Well, it is usually because I'm in Clearwater in
5 court. That is the usual time I would just stop in and see
6 what is going on.
7 I was concerned about these white lines drawn by
8 the City of Clearwater behind the bank building owned by the
9 Church of Scientology.
10 I was concerned about driving down Waters --
11 whatever that is called, Waterman Street, having police
12 officers look at you like you are a criminal and all you are
13 doing is driving down the street. Judge Penick, I think,
14 expressed the same concern. So I was concerned about all
15 that because this is kind of a strange circumstance.
16 I was concerned when they drew orange lines on the
17 sidewalk of downtown Clearwater, which would restrict First
18 Amendment rights.
19 Q Mr. Minton was in Clearwater at the LMT regularly
20 in 2000, correct? He was there a lot? He was down here a
21 lot in 2000?
22 A I have no idea.
23 Q Well, when he was down here -- and there were
24 times when he was down here for extended periods of time.
25 Correct?
249
1 A I have no idea. I can tell you that there were a
2 lot of times he was down here and I never saw him.
3 Q Did you meet with Mr. Minton ever at Stacy Brooks'
4 house?
5 A Once.
6 Q When was that?
7 A It was -- I don't remember when. That was the
8 episode when he was in -- having an emotional breakdown, as
9 I call it, crying profusely, in a fetal position at times.
10 It was terrible.
11 Q What was the occasion of you going to Stacy
12 Brooks' house to meet with Mr. Minton?
13 A Because of his emotional condition.
14 Q So you went there because he was having an
15 emotional breakdown?
16 A Yes. I was called by Stacy Brooks to hurry up
17 over, it was an emergency.
18 Q Was this during the day? At night?
19 A During the day.
20 Q And who else was there other than Mr. Minton and
21 Stacy Brooks?
22 A I believe I was there just with -- it was just the
23 three of us for a while. Then Jesse Prince and Jeff
24 Jacobsen showed up. And by that time, Mr. Minton had gained
25 his composure somewhat. And I kept insisting on calling
250
1 911, but I was voted down.
2 Q So I think your testimony was -- or you asked a
3 question of Mr. Minton, I can't remember exactly which it
4 was, or Ms. Brooks -- that on at least two occasions
5 Mr. Minton broke down emotionally in front of you. Right?
6 Did I hear you say that or ask a question like that?
7 A At least two times.
8 Q Right. One was this time. Correct?
9 A Right.
10 Q And do you remember -- you don't remember what
11 year this was?
12 A No.
13 Q And do you remember what occasioned the emotional
14 outburst?
15 A Pressure he was under. And his marriage.
16 Q Well, what do you mean, his marriage?
17 THE COURT: I don't want to go there. I don't
18 want to get into that. What does that have to do
19 with this?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll go on.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q And the other time was where?
23 A New Hampshire.
24 Q When you were up there in February?
25 A Correct.
251
1 Q So you had a close enough relationship with
2 Mr. Minton where -- where he felt comfortable around you
3 when he was having emotional issues or problems?
4 A No. Just quite the opposite of that. I didn't
5 get to Stacy Brooks' house on that date because Mr. Minton
6 called me. I got there because Stacy Brooks called me,
7 frantic, about what to do.
8 Q Now, what different cities did you have meetings
9 or did you meet with Mr. Minton in?
10 A Over the five years?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Boston for the deposition.
13 Boston maybe before that for that doctor's
14 deposition in the cancer case I had, the malpractice case.
15 Boston for Mr. Minton's deposition a month later.
16 Philadelphia in August of '99 because I was on
17 another doctor's deposition in another malpractice case.
18 I just want to say Tampa Bay. I don't think there
19 are any others.
20 Q You went to his house, as well?
21 A That was the only time, March of 2002. I always
22 kidded around that I was the only one that was never invited
23 to his house in New Hampshire.
24 Q So it was Boston a couple times, Philadelphia, and
25 New Hampshire, in addition to the couple of times in
252
1 Clearwater and Tampa?
2 A Right.
3 Q Did you visit with Mr. Minton in any hotels?
4 A Well, when he talked in this courtroom about the
5 Philadelphia August of '99 hotel room with the young girl
6 who had just left Scientology and Rod Keller, I believe he's
7 correct about that. We didn't talk about the case; we
8 talked about her.
9 And we also talked to the head of the Scientology
10 org. in Philadelphia after dinner, who apparently came back
11 to try to get this girl back. And it was -- actually, it
12 was not a -- a very pleasant conversation, a follow-up, on
13 the steps of the hotel.
14 But another hotel? I don't think so.
15 Q How about restaurants?
16 A Well, wait a minute. Hotels -- wait. The
17 Holiday -- whatever it is called -- on U.S. 19 for the
18 December 5th vigil, I'm sure I spoke there once or twice,
19 and I'm sure Mr. Minton was there.
20 Restaurants? Yeah, sure.
21 Q I mean, are we talking -- can you quantify the
22 number of times that you had -- you say they're not
23 meetings -- but that you ate dinner or lunch or spent time
24 over food with Mr. Minton over the years?
25 A And others? Because it was never one-on-one
253
1 except that Bombay Bicycle Club.
2 Belleview Biltmore, I would say maybe I recall
3 three times.
4 And Octavio's Restaurant next to the Lisa
5 McPherson Trust, I recall five times.
6 That one hotel and dinner up in Philadelphia that
7 one time.
8 And we may have had dinner in Boston when I was up
9 there for the deposition, but I can't really remember.
10 Q And Ruth's Chris, you went there?
11 A Ruth's Chris was a big dinner. My clients were
12 there. My wife was there. And I believe Stacy Brooks got
13 accosted there with a process server inside Ruth's Chris by
14 the Church of Scientology. I remember that one.
15 Q So you were there with Mr. Minton, among others?
16 A Right.
17 Q Then the Bombay Bicycle Club?
18 A Right. We talked about that.
19 Q Okay. Any celebrations that you spent with
20 Mr. Minton, celebrating your birthday, his birthday, Stacy
21 Brooks' birthday, Jesse Prince's, anything like that?
22 A Not that I recall.
23 Q Did you take any trips with Mr. Minton?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, how would you -- how do you characterize your
254
1 relationship -- I'm talking about prior to this hearing --
2 with Bob Minton?
3 A Arm's length.
4 Q Excuse me?
5 A Arm's length.
6 Q What do you mean by that?
7 A Well, except the time I was called to Stacy
8 Brooks' house because of his emotional breakdown, by her,
9 not by him, and until I saw him in March of 2002 and he was
10 crying because he thought I wasn't his friend anymore, you
11 know, we would meet -- I would happenstance see him at the
12 Trust, and it was an arm's length -- it was never a
13 buddy-buddy situation, not because of me, but that is just
14 because of the way he was.
15 Q I thought that in the questions that you asked
16 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that the implication was that you
17 had a close enough relationship with Mr. Minton where you
18 talked to him and gave him advice about his personal life.
19 Didn't I hear you say that?
20 A Mmm, I did that twice, as I recall. Once in
21 that -- that Philadelphia dinner. And once when Stacy
22 Brooks called me to her house that I already described. And
23 I don't think we had any other conversations because that
24 was a subject that he really didn't want to talk about,
25 although he's the one that brought it up in Philadelphia.
255
1 Q So in all these phone calls and times you got
2 together, if you didn't talk about personal things and you
3 didn't talk about the case, what did you talk about?
4 A I remember sending him an E-Mail about his
5 personal relationships. I don't have it, but -- but what
6 did we talk about? I mean, I don't know. I mean, when the
7 trust was going on, we were talking about his picketing. We
8 were talking about the police. We were talking about things
9 like that. Then discovery was going on in 2000 and 2001.
10 We talked about that.
11 But he never approached me about the Lisa
12 McPherson case. And I never brought it up. As strange as
13 that may sound to all of you, he was hands off. His E-Mails
14 were correct when he said he has no input in the case.
15 Q Excuse me. You trailed off. He has no what?
16 A He has no input in the case.
17 Q Philadelphia. You did have a meeting -- or shall
18 I say you met with Mr. Minton in Philadelphia. Right?
19 A Yes. For dinner.
20 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks came
21 specially to Philadelphia to meet with you. Correct?
22 A No.
23 Q Well, did they have business in Philadelphia?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Well, what was their business in Philadelphia?
256
1 A This girl that was coming out of Scientology, they
2 were very interested in her. It was the whole dinner, that
3 is what it was all about.
4 Q You knew, before they got there, that you were
5 going to be meeting with them in Philadelphia. Correct?
6 There had been some planning?
7 A I would assume so. I can't tell you for sure.
8 Q Now, I think I heard you say that Mr. Minton was
9 correct that you didn't just see him at the dinner, you
10 actually met him in his hotel room, as well, correct? Isn't
11 that what you said a few minutes ago?
12 A I met in a hotel room. I don't know if it was his
13 or someone else's. If he says it was his, I can't quibble
14 with that.
15 Q So there was a dinner where you were present,
16 Ms. Brooks was present, Mr. Minton was present. This was
17 all on August 26, 1999?
18 A Somewhere -- 25th, 26th, 24th.
19 Q And you were there on some other business?
20 A Right.
21 Q So at this dinner -- what, was it at the hotel, do
22 you know?
23 A It was at the hotel. I remember -- I'm
24 visualizing it right now.
25 Q Were you all staying in the same hotel,
257
1 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and you?
2 A I would think so. Yes.
3 Q Do you remember the name of the hotel?
4 A No. Philadelphia -- might have been -- the Hyatt,
5 Center City.
6 Q Did you arrange for Mr. Minton's and Ms. Brooks'
7 reservations at the hotel?
8 A No.
9 Q Or your office, I mean?
10 A No.
11 Q So at this dinner there was you, Minton --
12 Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, Rod Keller who was a critic of
13 Scientology. Correct?
14 A I suppose. I don't know what you call him.
15 Q Well, he was -- he was active in the
16 anti-Scientology movement. Correct?
17 A Well, you -- he was active as a critic. I think
18 what he actually -- he had some kind of computer job, and he
19 would put together this alt.religion.scientology news, the
20 most notable quotes or something, because there are hundreds
21 and hundreds of people post there every day. I tried to
22 access it a few times and I couldn't figure it out. But he
23 would put together -- a newsletter together, which I never
24 saw. And I think I asked him to send it to me, because I
25 was interested in seeing what these people were saying.
258
1 But as far as him being a critic, I have never
2 seen anything posted by him, so I would assume that is true
3 but I can't verify.
4 Q Now, was Mr. Minton giving him money?
5 A I don't know.
6 Q And had you met him before this meeting; in other
7 words, had you -- had you been in touch with Rod Keller
8 prior to August 25/26, 1999?
9 A Only if he showed up down here for a picket or
10 something.
11 Q In other words, he wasn't a close confidante or
12 anything like that of yours?
13 A No, never.
14 Q He wasn't a trial consultant or anything?
15 A No, never.
16 Q The last person of the group was who?
17 A Well, the girl that -- I can't remember her name
18 right now. And there might have been somebody else.
19 I just know the dinner -- Bob Minton and I were
20 talking one-on-one. And everybody else was concentrating on
21 this girl.
22 Q Now, and you say at this dinner where all these
23 people that were not confidantes of you, Mr. Keller and this
24 girl's name, are, you say you talked to Mr. Minton with
25 Ms. Brooks present and these two people that you didn't even
259
1 know, about his marital life?
2 A Yes. Mr. Minton and I were side by side. Stacy
3 Brooks was on the other side of me. Rod Keller, the girl
4 and somebody else was on the other end. This was a round
5 table. And Mr. Minton and I were very close, shoulder to
6 shoulder, talking. So we carried on our own conversation.
7 And, again, he brings this up. I didn't bring it
8 up. And he just -- you know, he already knew what I thought
9 somehow. I think this is the first time we ever discussed
10 it.
11 Q And you didn't discuss the case at this dinner?
12 A No.
13 Q But then, after the dinner, you went to
14 Mr. Minton's -- or Ms. Brooks' or some hotel room?
15 A I believe they had adjoining rooms. And we talked
16 to this girl again. I believe that was the purpose of going
17 to the room.
18 Q And at some point it was just you, Ms. Brooks and
19 Mr. Minton. Correct?
20 A I would think so. I can't remember that part of
21 it.
22 Q Well, do you remember that some point the -- the
23 issue of money came up?
24 A It's possible.
25 Q Well, he handed --
260
1 A I don't remember.
2 Q -- you a $250,000 check in the hotel room, didn't
3 he?
4 A I can't say that either. I can't say --
5 Q No, look --
6 A No, listen.
7 Q I'm sorry to interrupt you.
8 A I know there is a check --
9 THE COURT: Don't interrupt him, Counselor.
10 Let him finish.
11 A I know there is a check dated after this trip, the
12 next day or -- probably the next day. But that, to me, is
13 not a big deal because I can't tell you if he handed it to
14 me then or if he mailed it to me or what.
15 THE COURT: 97E, I think it is, is a check for
16 $250,000 dated 8/27/99.
17 MR. FUGATE: 93? That is my writing, I think.
18 THE COURT: 93E. Right. I'm sorry.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Right, it is 93E. If I could
20 approach --
21 THE COURT: Unless you have to show him that.
22 Here, he can have mine --
23 THE WITNESS: I know about it. I have seen it.
24 THE COURT: What do you need to approach him
25 for?
261
1 THE WITNESS: It is no big deal to me. I don't
2 care which way it happened.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Well, getting $250,000 was a big deal to you.
5 Right?
6 A Mmm, yes. Of course, by that time, it was -- it
7 was not the first check. I mean, I was more shocked at the
8 first check than anything that happened after that.
9 Q And is it your recollection that that is where you
10 got the check, at this meeting?
11 A No. But if it is his recollection, I don't need
12 to quibble with him about it.
13 Q When you got this $250,000 check from Mr. Minton,
14 what, if anything, did Mr. Minton say about the conditions
15 under which he was giving you this money?
16 A I can tell you 1,000 percent I never received
17 anything from Mr. Minton that was conditioned upon anything.
18 So I know, without being able to remember him handing me a
19 check then, I know for certain he never said this is a
20 condition for the check. Never. Never. Never.
21 Q And he didn't, in August of 1999, give you any
22 sort of written document with regard to this check or you to
23 him. Correct?
24 A Not that I recall.
25 Q There was no written loan agreement or anything
262
1 like that?
2 A No.
3 THE COURT: Counsel, by now surely we would
4 have it in evidence.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Now, is it a coincidence that ten days or so after
7 you received this check and had this meeting in Philadelphia
8 with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that you filed, on
9 September 7, 1999, your motion to add parties by your motion
10 to add, for the first time now, David Miscavige, as well as
11 the end of cycle allegation? Is that a coincidence?
12 A Two weeks later?
13 Q Yes.
14 A Yes, that is a coincidence because, believe it or
15 not, we never even discussed David Miscavige or anything
16 going on in the case, in Philadelphia.
17 Q That was going to be my next question. Now, you
18 heard Mr. Minton's testimony, you heard Ms. Brooks'
19 testimony about discussions concerning their concern about
20 you focusing -- not focusing enough on Scientology.
21 Do you remember that testimony?
22 A I -- in this courtroom? Yes.
23 Q Okay. Now, did you ever have a conversation with
24 Mr. Minton where he expressed his concern to you about you
25 not focusing enough on Scientology and the case?
263
1 A No. I had that discussion with Stacy Brooks and
2 Jesse Prince about not using them enough.
3 And Mr. Minton said, "Why don't you go call and
4 talk to Stacy and Jesse because, you know, they think they
5 should be at these depositions helping you."
6 Q Well, when did you have that conversation with
7 Mr. Minton?
8 A You know, I don't remember. But it was -- I want
9 to say it was -- it was at the LMT, so it had to be in 2000
10 to the first half of 2001.
11 Q So there came a point where you --
12 A But you would -- but you would know just by
13 looking at the staff depositions that we took and the
14 defendant's depositions that we took after they quit
15 pleading the Fifth Amendment. So that happened after June
16 of 2000. So I don't know if it was before or after June of
17 2000.
18 Q But there came a point where you met with Mr. --
19 you met Mr. Minton one day at the LMT, Mr. Minton said
20 something to the effect of, "Why don't you use Stacy Brooks
21 and Jesse Prince more in your depositions?"
22 A Yeah, "When I'm doing Scientology staff, because,
23 you know, they have their expertise in Scientology matters."
24 That made sense. But sometimes I used -- you
25 know, it was Jesse Prince mostly. I can't remember Stacy
264
1 being at anything like that except maybe Bennetta
2 Slaughter's deposition or AMC Publishing's depositions, the
3 employers for Lisa McPherson. Stacy may have been at one or
4 two. That is when you guys were moving to exclude
5 depositions before Judge Moody. And he denied that. And I
6 remember Jesse eventually showing up there.
7 So that was -- that was early on, though. So I'm
8 not talking about that.
9 Q She also went to hearings?
10 A She went to some hearings.
11 Q Now, going back to the -- to the time when you had
12 this conversation with Mr. Minton, did -- did he, during
13 that conversation, tell you why he thought that it would --
14 it was necessary for you to use Stacy and -- Stacy Brooks
15 and Jesse Prince more?
16 A No. He just said, "Go talk to Stacy and Jesse."
17 I think Jesse, in particular, was upset because I didn't
18 have him at every deposition.
19 Q Does that mean that Jesse Prince and Bob Minton
20 were talking about the case?
21 A I have no idea.
22 Q And was the activity -- well --
23 A Well, now that I know that Stacy Brooks was the
24 spy of Mr. Minton, that is the shock of my career in this
25 case, in this hearing. Sounds like she was talking to
265
1 Mr. Minton quite a bit, contrary to her agreement with me.
2 Q Well, it didn't come as a surprise to you that
3 Stacy Brooks was talking to Mr. Minton, given her
4 relationship with Mr. Minton, about the case, was it?
5 A Actually, it did.
6 THE COURT: Why, Counselor -- am I to assume
7 when I instructed Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, who I
8 assume were staying in the same room, not to discuss
9 this case, that they disobeyed my orders and did so
10 anyway?
11 MR. WEINBERG: No.
12 THE COURT: Well then, if he asked his
13 consultant not to discuss the case with anybody
14 else, is he to think differently?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me ask him that
16 question, if I can.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q There came a point in time when the LMT opened up,
19 at the end of 1999, where Stacy Brooks was full-time at the
20 LMT and was not working as your consultant, right?
21 A Well, she was -- even before that, was barely
22 working as my consultant. I mean, Jesse Prince was the
23 person who I relied on 99.9 percent of the time.
24 Q And you knew that Jesse Prince had a very close
25 relationship, because of the money, and possibly other
266
1 reasons, with both Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton. Right?
2 A No. No.
3 Q You didn't know that?
4 A No. In fact, I would -- I would venture to say
5 that I don't think Jesse Prince had a close relationship
6 with either one of them, as close as you want to make it out
7 to be.
8 Q Well, before Jesse Prince ever came to you, he was
9 being paid by Mr. Minton, you know that, and you knew that
10 at the time. Correct?
11 A No.
12 Q And then there came a time --
13 A The answer is no, I didn't know that.
14 Q Well, when did you learn that, that before
15 Mr. Prince came to you in 1998, that Mr. Minton was paying
16 substantial sums to Mr. Prince?
17 A The first time I knew about his income was in the
18 deposition that you took of him where he described his
19 income from FACTNet, not from Mr. Minton. And there is a
20 difference.
21 THE COURT: FACTNet -- I forgot, is FACTNet a
22 corporation?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: An Inc.?
25 THE WITNESS: At some time it became an Inc.
267
1 THE COURT: But it was nonprofit?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE COURT: But was it a corporation?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know the answer to the
6 question.
7 THE COURT: So if being checks were paid from
8 FACTNet, Inc. we all have to assume the checks were
9 paid by a corporation and not by Mr. Minton.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you heard Mr. Minton's
11 testimony about all of the money that he gave --
12 THE COURT: I understand that. But I bet you
13 any amount of money that he considers FACTNet, Inc.
14 a separate entity, incorporated, from himself. I'll
15 bet you any amount of money if FACTNet got income,
16 that he would not put it on his personal return.
17 I mean, anybody that works and does and uses
18 corporations does so for all kinds of reasons. And
19 you just can't, when it is convenient, suggest that
20 is his money. If the money came from the
21 corporation, it was corporate money. That is by
22 law.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Were you aware that -- were you aware that after
25 FACTNet, Mr. Minton was providing checks to Mr. Prince,
268
1 after FACTNet?
2 A Well, no. The only thing I was aware of -- and
3 actually I learned about it in his deposition, Jesse
4 Prince's -- is this bridge loan that Mr. Minton made to
5 Jesse Prince of $50,000 so he could buy the home in
6 Clearwater.
7 But other than that, he was working either for me,
8 then he went to work for the LMT.
9 Q Well, let me show you what we'll mark as the next
10 exhibit, please.
11 THE CLERK: 153.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q I have just shown you Exhibit 153. Let me see
14 if --
15 A Uh-huh?
16 Q -- if we can agree to something.
17 Is it your recollection that beginning --
18 THE COURT: Are these all part -- I have three
19 different things here. Are they all part of 153?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Beginning in June -- approximately June of 1999
24 until approximately May of 2000, you issued checks to Jesse
25 Prince at $5,000 a month, correct?
269
1 A Right.
2 THE COURT: When was that from?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Approximately June of 1999
4 through, I believe, May of 2000.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q And after that, Mr. Prince -- after May of 2000,
7 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Prince was paid by the LMT, and ultimately
8 you found out in a hearing, by Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton.
9 Correct?
10 A Right.
11 Q Still at that $5,000 a month clip?
12 And what I'm showing you as Exhibit 153 is a check
13 for February 2, 1999 from Mr. Minton to Mr. Prince for
14 $6,500, and --
15 A Who is Madison S. Minton? That wasn't -- I don't
16 understand what is at the bottom of this, "Madison S.
17 Minton."
18 Q I don't know what it is. But the check, at the
19 top, you recognize that as a Bob Minton check, right?
20 A Barely, but I -- I would guess so.
21 Q I mean, you got one of those Bank of Boston
22 checks, right?
23 A I may have. I can't tell you. I am surprised --
24 THE COURT: Let's make this a little speedier
25 here. We can assume that this was a Minton check.
270
1 I mean, it is a very bad copy, but let's assume that
2 for the sake of argument.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Then on the next page, the one I highlighted is a
6 March 18, 1999 check for $5,000, a March check to Mr. Prince
7 from Mr. Minton?
8 A Yes. I didn't know about that.
9 Q And then --
10 A I'm surprised about the $250,000 check to Stacy
11 Brooks, though, in March of '99.
12 Q Then on May 4, 1999 -- in other words, a May check
13 for $5,000. Do you see that?
14 A Yes. Yes.
15 Q All right. Now, during this period of time,
16 February, March, May, Mr. Prince was working with you as
17 your expert?
18 A I don't think so.
19 Q He wasn't?
20 A I don't think so. He came to work for me in June
21 of '99, and -- full-time. Now, I had a few phone calls with
22 him before that, but he wasn't working for me then.
23 Q Well, he did the PC folders in December of '98.
24 Right?
25 A Yes. That was just gratis, as far as I was
271
1 concerned.
2 Q He just did that for free?
3 A He did it for free as far as I'm concerned. He
4 did it with Stacy Brooks. I wasn't paying either one of
5 them.
6 Q Isn't it your experience with Mr. Prince that he
7 did nothing for free?
8 A No. That is not true at all. That is just not
9 true.
10 Q Did you know that Mr. Minton was paying
11 Mr. Prince -- actually paying him out of his own pocket when
12 he was doing things for you?
13 A No. I don't know that. You haven't proven that
14 to me, by the way. But these checks don't prove it at all.
15 THE COURT: What number is this compilation,
16 please, again?
17 MR. LIROT: 153.
18 MR. WEINBERG: 153.
19 THE COURT: Thank you.
20 A This all predates the time that Jesse Prince came
21 to work for me.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Well, except for the fact that the -- the PC
24 folders?
25 A Except for the PC folders, right.
272
1 THE COURT: Which he already testified to,
2 Counselor. Make your arguments to me. You really
3 need to move through this. Make your arguments to
4 me when this is all over.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q Back to the meetings. This Philadelphia meeting,
8 anything that you can recall that you discussed about the
9 case in the hotel room after the dinner?
10 A Nothing.
11 Q And you certainly wouldn't have had anybody else
12 there other than Ms. Brooks if you were discussing with
13 Mr. Minton money, was that right?
14 A Well, no. I mean, I don't know if Rod Keller was
15 around or not. And I don't remember discussing money with
16 him. He may have -- I mean, if he did hand me a check then,
17 he was the one that brought up money. He always would say,
18 "How are you doing? Do you need some more?"
19 Q Now, Mr. Minton, did he express concerns to you
20 about the shape of the complaint as it stood prior to you
21 moving for the fifth amended complaint?
22 A Never.
23 Q I mean, there had been a number of motions to
24 dismiss, if you recall, with regard to the second, third and
25 fourth amended complaints, prior to you seeking to file the
273
1 fifth amended complaint where a number of counts were
2 dismissed and allegations struck.
3 Do you remember those hearings?
4 A I remember those hearings.
5 Q And my question was anybody suggest to you -- did
6 Mr. Minton suggest to you that he was concerned that you had
7 sort of lost your focus or was losing too many of those and
8 that the case was not addressing enough Scientology?
9 A Never.
10 Q Okay.
11 A I wouldn't classify it as losing those motions.
12 They were very technical.
13 Q Now, the motion to add these additional parties
14 was actually argued in October 1999, correct?
15 A No. What was argued in October of '99 was whether
16 or not the stipulation was valid. We challenged the
17 stipulation.
18 Q The -- the effect of the hearing in October of '99
19 was that you were not permitted by Judge Moody at that time
20 to add David Miscavige or Ray Mithoff or Marty Rathbun to
21 the complaint, right?
22 A No. My recollection is Judge Moody said the
23 stipulation is valid, it does not need consideration, but
24 you are free to breach it if you want to.
25 And I said, no, we're not going to breach
274
1 anything. So we stopped.
2 Q You didn't file the fifth amended complaint at
3 that time with David Miscavige and the other two gentlemen's
4 names, right?
5 A That is right. It was just attached to the
6 motion.
7 Q Now, after that hearing but before you filed the
8 new motion to add Mr. Miscavige on, I believe we looked at
9 it earlier, November 19 of 1999, between the hearing in
10 October and November 19 of 1999, did you have any
11 discussions, meetings, conversations in which Mr. Minton was
12 in attendance in which the fifth amended complaint, David
13 Miscavige, the allegations, were discussed?
14 A No.
15 Q You heard the testimony of both Ms. Brooks and
16 Mr. Minton and you have read their affidavits about a
17 meeting which they say took place in your new offices
18 sometime after this hearing before Judge Moody but before
19 you filed your motion on the Sea Org theory in which they
20 claim --
21 THE COURT: Counsel, this is the longest
22 question I ever heard in my life. I don't know --
23 MR. WEINBERG: I'll make it shorter.
24 THE COURT: I don't know what the end will be.
25 THE WITNESS: I thought I had some longer ones.
275
1 THE COURT: I'm sure you did. And hopefully it
2 was that time of day I stopped you.
3 THE WITNESS: You did.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q You remember their testimony, correct?
6 A I remember their conflicting testimony. I
7 remember Mr. Minton first testifying he flew down for a
8 secret meeting in July or August of '99 to add on David
9 Miscavige. Then he corrected himself a couple weeks later
10 saying he flew down for a secret meeting in late
11 October/November of '99 for this adding on David Miscavige.
12 And I remember Ms. Brooks saying there was a big
13 vote taken and she didn't want anything to do with adding on
14 David Miscavige.
15 And I remember Mr. Minton saying she was a
16 proponent of adding on David Miscavige and there was a vote
17 taken. So all that is incorrect. There was no meeting with
18 Mr. Minton.
19 Q Was there a meeting with Ms. Brooks where this Sea
20 Org theory was discussed?
21 THE COURT: Sea Org? Or is it adding
22 Mr. Miscavige? Or is that all part of it?
23 MR. WEINBERG: That is all part of it.
24 A Well, there was a meeting that I recall with Jesse
25 Prince and Stacy Brooks and Dr. Garko and I where Stacy
276
1 Brooks was the proponent of adding on David Miscavige. I'm
2 sitting there listening to my experts, my consultants, and
3 then nothing was decided at all until I spoke with Dell
4 Liebreich and we mulled it over for a while. And --
5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what did you say? We
6 what?
7 A We mulled it over a while. And Dell Liebreich
8 said Fannie said, you know, we'll follow what Fannie wants
9 to do. I said we can do it now because we have the evidence
10 we didn't have before.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q That was the Jesse Prince affidavit?
13 A Not only that, but the documents that we had,
14 command lines of Scientology that all the RTC news that has
15 to be reported immediately to RTC, all of the way up at the
16 very top of Scientology when somebody goes PPS Type III. I
17 mean, I have heard people talk about that, but I never had
18 any documents until that summer of '99 from Jesse Prince and
19 others.
20 Q And this meeting that took place with Prince,
21 Brooks -- Mr. Prince, Ms. Brooks, Dr. Garko and you, you say
22 Mr. Minton was not there?
23 A Mr. Minton was not part of the meeting. If he was
24 there, he might have been somewhere else in the office.
25 That was a huge office.
277
1 Q Well, is it your recollection that the day in this
2 period of time, after Judge Moody said what he did -- what
3 he did in October, but before you filed the motion to add
4 David Miscavige, are you saying that on the day of that --
5 of that meeting, that Mr. Minton was in your office?
6 A No. I don't know. I'm just saying he was never
7 part of a meeting. He was never part of a meeting where I
8 discussed with Dr. Garko, Jesse Prince and Stacy Brooks
9 about proceeding any further in adding on David Miscavige as
10 captain of the Sea Org.
11 Q Well, did you ride the elevator down with him
12 after whoever you met with met in which this was discussed?
13 Did you ride it down with him and Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince?
14 A No. I mean, the way they described that, "And
15 don't tell anybody, let's ride in the elevator," that is
16 just ridiculous. That didn't happen.
17 Why would I tell my consultants not to talk about
18 it with anybody? I mean, that is a given. I mean, this is
19 work product. So that is ridiculous.
20 Q Well, if Mr. Minton was there, there is nothing --
21 no work product about it, was there?
22 A Well, if Mr. Minton was there, which he wasn't,
23 but if he was there, it was still work product. But he
24 wasn't there.
25 Q Well, hold on a second. If Mr. Minton was in a
278
1 meeting, even with your consultants and you, discussing the
2 case, there is nothing work product about this meeting?
3 THE COURT: It is always work product unless
4 somebody says it is waived. Anybody can claim work
5 product. Anybody can claim attorney-client
6 privilege. Anybody can claim all kinds of
7 privileges. Sometimes they are waived. It does not
8 change what it was.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Are you suggesting that -- that conversations that
12 you had with Mr. Minton were in some way confidential,
13 privileged?
14 THE COURT: That is unfair. He didn't say he
15 ever had such a conversation with Mr. Minton. All I
16 said to you is that if he had a conversation with
17 his consultant, it would be work product even if
18 someone else were there. Whether or not you could
19 get to that work product because somebody else was
20 there may be true. It does not alter the fact that
21 it's work product. It is whether the privilege
22 attaches to it.
23 If I have a communication with my lawyer, it's
24 attorney-client privilege. If somebody happens to
25 be there, it doesn't alter the fact that it's
279
1 attorney-client privilege.
2 The question is whether that attorney-client
3 privilege has been waived because somebody else was
4 there. It does not alter the fact that I had a
5 conversation which is privileged unless it's waived.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
7 THE COURT: But it doesn't matter because this
8 testimony is he didn't have this conversation with
9 Mr. Minton.
10 Is that your conversation -- I'm sorry, is that
11 your testimony?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge.
13 THE COURT: Is that testimony going to change?
14 THE WITNESS: It's not.
15 THE COURT: Are you going to stay with that
16 testimony to the death?
17 THE WITNESS: To the death.
18 THE COURT: There you have it. I mean, it's
19 just different testimony, and you need to get off it
20 and go to something else.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q You did go to New Hampshire this year in February
23 to meet with Mr. Minton, correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And you went there with Dr. Garko?
280
1 A Yes.
2 Q And it was sometime in late February?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you remember the date? February 23rd is what
5 he said.
6 A Whatever that Saturday and Sunday were.
7 Q And prior to that meeting, you had offered to meet
8 Mr. Minton at various places, including the Caymans,
9 Nashville, Atlanta, Cleveland, is that right?
10 A Well, it's almost right. Mr. Minton had been
11 calling me, asking to meet with me, without telling me what
12 he wanted to meet me about. And I kept saying, "Why do you
13 want to meet me?"
14 "Well, I can't tell you on the phone."
15 First he suggested Atlanta because Ms. Brooks has
16 a townhouse there. And I was getting ready to come to
17 Atlanta on a Monday and come back the same day. And I just
18 couldn't do it physically.
19 So I said, "Look --" he said, "I won't come to
20 Florida, I can't go to Florida, because I get subpoenaed
21 every time I go to Florida."
22 I said, "Fine. In a week or two I'll be at
23 Vanderbilt University. Mr. Weinberg will be there deposing
24 Dr. Fogo in this case. Would you like to meet there?"
25 He said, "That is great."
281
1 I said, "I'm staying at this new hotel."
2 He said, "Book me a room."
3 And he did. Then he called up and cancelled the
4 day before arrival or the day of arrival, one of those two.
5 I said, "I'm going to the Caymans in January of
6 this year? Do you want to meet me about whatever you want
7 to talk to me about? I don't care if you interrupt my
8 family vacation. It won't be that long, anyway, for you to
9 talk to me."
10 He said, "That's a good idea."
11 "Let me know. Let me know where you're staying.
12 Let me know when you get there."
13 The first minute I get to the hotel, I'm sitting
14 there waiting, someone takes my family -- we are sitting
15 there waiting for my room, someone comes and snaps a picture
16 of us, and it wasn't a resort photographer. They ran away
17 after they snapped our picture.
18 I believe I left a message with Mr. Minton about
19 that. Mr. Minton decided not to come to the Cayman Islands.
20 So then I came back. Now it's February. And if
21 there was another deposition I offered to meet him at, I'm
22 not remembering it right now.
23 But finally he said, "Why don't you just come to
24 New Hampshire?"
25 And I did.
282
1 Q Well, Mr. Minton had cut off the phones in August,
2 and you say that in January he was calling you to arrange a
3 meeting?
4 A You got that right.
5 Q And you had no interest in talking -- you weren't
6 reaching out for him at this point, trying to get more
7 money?
8 A Well, I think I knew he had cut me off, so
9 periodically, I don't know how many times, once, twice,
10 three times, I sent him an E-Mail because he talked about
11 his European friends always being interested in helping but
12 nothing was happening. And so I did send him a few E-Mails
13 about his friends in Europe.
14 And so I don't know if he was calling me about
15 that or not. He just wouldn't tell me on the phone. But he
16 sounded like a person that -- he needed to talk to me and
17 needed to do it in person.
18 Q What do you mean, you wrote him E-Mails about his
19 friends in Europe?
20 A I wrote him E-Mails -- I think he talked about it
21 at this hearing -- where I said, you know, "We need money.
22 We're taking a ton of depositions. What about your friends
23 that you told me about before? You know, will they be
24 interested, even though you are not interested?"
25 And that is when Jesse Prince came to my office,
283
1 in February of 2002, and told me that there were certain
2 conditions I had to meet and he would ask his friends to
3 help me.
4 Q Did you actually send Mr. Minton some E-Mails
5 sometime in late 2001 or early 2002 in which you actually
6 used the words "friends in Europe" -- I'm talking about
7 before this meeting in New Hampshire in February?
8 A I think I used the word "friends."
9 Q Do you have those E-Mails?
10 A No. I'm sure you do. You have got all his other
11 E-Mails.
12 Q And Jesse Prince -- this is long after he had
13 withdrawn from the case -- you say came to your office in
14 January of 2002?
15 A I think it was February.
16 Q February of 2002? But before you went to New
17 Hampshire?
18 A Right.
19 Q And is this just out of the blue he came to your
20 office?
21 A Out of the blue.
22 Q And it was just you and Jesse -- and Mr. Prince?
23 A That is right.
24 Q Can you date it?
25 A Nope.
284
1 Q And it was in your new office?
2 A My new office. My current office, yes.
3 Q And what did -- was this -- and what happened in
4 this meeting? Who said what to whom?
5 A Jesse said, "Bob will help you get money if you do
6 some things."
7 The only thing I can remember right now is -- as
8 crazy as this sounds and as silly as it sounds -- I wasn't
9 allowed to talk to Patricia Greenway any more because
10 apparently Bob and Stacy had a falling out with her and
11 Peter Alexander.
12 And Bob was real upset about all of the criticism
13 on the Internet about him, which, you know, I didn't know
14 about. It turns out it was two people.
15 I said, "Well, this is kind of, you know,
16 immature. But if his friends will help me, if that happens,
17 you know, if I get these two people, asking them to quit
18 saying nasty things on the Internet about Bob Minton, since
19 that upsets him so much, and quit talking to Patricia
20 Greenway," I said, "That is an outrageous request, you know,
21 who I can talk to."
22 But I said, "If that will help get your friends to
23 give me money, you can tell him okay, I can do that."
24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was writing as fast as
25 I could and listening. This is one of the times my
285
1 brain might have stopped.
2 You said there were two things he wanted you to
3 do: One, stopping talking to Patricia Greenway.
4 What was two?
5 THE WITNESS: Two, to get these critics of him
6 to quit criticizing him on the Internet. Because
7 that was two people.
8 THE COURT: It might be getting on to four
9 o'clock. Sure enough, because my brain doesn't work
10 as fast.
11 THE WITNESS: I will talk slower.
12 THE COURT: Talk slower for me. But it is
13 going awfully slow.
14 (A discussion was held off the record.)
15 THE COURT: Go ahead.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q So Jesse Prince was supposed to be speaking for
18 Mr. Minton when he appeared at your office one day?
19 A That is right.
20 Q That is what he said?
21 A That is what he said.
22 Q Now, you had had some previous experience with
23 Jesse Prince trying to speak for Mr. Minton, hadn't you?
24 A Once.
25 Q And hadn't Mr. Minton said, "Mr. Prince doesn't
286
1 speak for me as it relates to my affairs, particularly
2 money"?
3 A Actually, that is a true statement by Mr. Minton.
4 Q He said it?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And when --
7 A Yes, he did.
8 Q And when was that?
9 A I have no idea.
10 Q Sometime before Jesse Prince appeared in your
11 office, though, in this year. Right?
12 A It was probably -- well, I don't know. I would
13 just guess. It is 2001.
14 Q Did you pick up -- did Mr. Prince say anything
15 else at this meeting, and did you say anything else to
16 Mr. Prince?
17 A No. That was it. I may have begged him to come
18 back and be my expert. I'm not sure. But he wasn't having
19 any of that.
20 Q I thought you said a few minutes ago that
21 Mr. Prince and Mr. Minton were not close, to your knowledge.
22 Didn't you say that?
23 A Yes.
24 Q But --
25 A They were not as close as I thought they were. I
287
1 thought they were really close.
2 Q But you say that Mr. Prince showed up speaking for
3 Mr. Minton --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- as far as --
6 A Yes. When he told me he was speaking for
7 Mr. Minton and he told me these two conditions, I assumed --
8 and I assumed correctly, by the way --
9 (A discussion was held off the record.)
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q How long did this meeting take place, last?
12 A Fifteen minutes or less. Maybe fifteen.
13 Q And you don't remember anything else at the
14 meeting?
15 A No. That was it.
16 Q And did you pick up the phone and call
17 Mr. Minton --
18 A No.
19 Q -- after Jesse Prince left?
20 A No.
21 Q Why not?
22 A Mr. Minton -- I don't know. I just didn't do it,
23 you know.
24 Q Well, did you type out an E-Mail to Mr. Minton
25 saying, "Your emissary appeared and I meet the conditions,"
288
1 or something to that effect?
2 A No, not nothing at all.
3 Q Did you have any communication, either directly or
4 indirectly, following Mr. Prince's visit, about the subject
5 matter that Mr. Prince discussed with you?
6 A No. The only thing that I recall next happening
7 is Mr. Minton calling me and telling me that -- come to New
8 Hampshire -- asking me to come to New Hampshire.
9 Q So you weren't begging him, he was begging you?
10 A He wasn't begging. He was asking me to come to
11 New Hampshire to talk to him.
12 Q So that he could give you money? Was it --
13 A Honest to God, I didn't put the two together. I
14 didn't put Jesse's visit to me and him asking me to come to
15 New Hampshire together. I thought coming to New Hampshire
16 was something else that was far more pressing on him.
17 Q Like what?
18 A I don't know. He wouldn't -- when --
19 Q I mean, something personal?
20 A Listen, we always talked on the phone about money.
21 I mean, he said, "Do you want some money? Do you need some
22 money?"
23 But this time it was, "No, I need to talk to you
24 in person. Please, you know, you need to come see me."
25 Q Right?
289
1 A And I think Stacy Brooks may have been part of the
2 call.
3 Q And you knew that you were going to be talking
4 about the case. Right?
5 A No.
6 Q So that is the reason -- so the reason you brought
7 Dr. Garko, your trial consultant, on your first visit to New
8 Hampshire in February of 2002 was not to talk about the
9 case?
10 A No. I brought Dr. Garko because Dr. Garko asked
11 to go.
12 Q To see the mountains?
13 A Just to go. He thought it would be good to have a
14 witness, because he didn't -- you know, we did not have a
15 good relationship anymore, you know, with Mr. Minton. So he
16 didn't know what was going on, and I didn't know what was
17 going on, so I thought it was a good idea to have him with
18 me. And it turns out I might be right.
19 Q What do you mean, you didn't have a good
20 relationship with him any --
21 A He cut off funding. He always promised to see the
22 case through to the bitter end, no matter what.
23 Q But Mr. Prince just visited you, saying if you
24 agree to these two conditions, which were not actually that
25 onerous, cut off the critics and don't turn talk to Patricia
290
1 Greenway, he'll give you more money?
2 THE COURT: That isn't what he said at all,
3 Counselor. He said he would get his friends to give
4 him money.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q And in December, early December of 2001,
8 regardless of whatever the relationship with Mr. Minton, you
9 had called up his lawyer, find out about -- about -- or
10 called up Mr. Minton to -- to discuss the subpoena for his
11 bank records, and had ultimately provided an affidavit.
12 Right?
13 A True. You shouldn't take my kindness as a sign of
14 weakness. I mean, I just did that because I was tired of
15 all of the abuse of discovery.
16 Q I won't ask any more questions about this except
17 this last time. Your testimony is that Dr. Garko went on
18 this trip, not to talk about the case, but just because he
19 wanted to be there?
20 A Right. We had no idea what the topic was.
21 THE COURT: And it wasn't just to be there.
22 That isn't what he said. He said they weren't sure
23 what was going on. He thought it might be good to
24 have a witness.
25
291
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Had you done that before, in your meetings with
3 Mr. Minton, brought a witness with you?
4 A Not intentionally.
5 Q Now, while you were in New Hampshire with
6 Mr. Minton, you did go over the 80 or so questions with him
7 that he had been ordered to answer that he'd previously
8 taken the Fifth Amendment on, right?
9 A Yes, I did. I think it had been my idea.
10 Q You mean your idea to go over the questions?
11 A Right.
12 Q So he --
13 A I thought he was -- I thought he was being
14 ridiculous in pleading the Fifth Amendment.
15 Q Did you think that that was better left to
16 Mr. Minton and his lawyer to discuss whether or not -- or
17 how he should be responding to questions that he had taken
18 the Fifth Amendment on?
19 A Well -- well, sure. But he asked me -- well, he
20 didn't ask me anything. He told me that, you know, he was
21 concerned about the judges' hearings coming up.
22 And I said, "You know, you are causing that
23 concern all by yourself. I don't know why you pled the
24 Fifth Amendment. What do you have to hide? As far as I
25 know, you have nothing to hide. Who cares how much you paid
292
1 Stacy Brooks? I mean, who really cares? Just answer the
2 questions."
3 And so we sat down on the sofa. Stacy Brooks was
4 there sitting next to me. Bob Minton was sitting in a
5 chair. Michael Garko was there sporadically -- no, he sat
6 there too, on the sofa, on the other sofa.
7 And we went over all of them. I said, "Just
8 answer the question. This is stupid."
9 Q What did he say?
10 A I think he was convinced. I mean, I think at the
11 end of the day -- or end of that session, you can call that
12 a meeting, I guess, he said okay.
13 I mean, I just said, "Look, this is all silly. I
14 mean, you have nothing to hide."
15 Q How long did that meeting last where you went over
16 these 80 or so questions?
17 A I am just being facetious when I called it a
18 meeting.
19 Q So it wasn't a meeting?
20 A No. I was at his house. I was a guest. I slept
21 in his daughter's bed upstairs, for heaven sakes. It wasn't
22 a meeting. It was a visit.
23 But, anyway, that lasted maybe a half hour,
24 forty-five minutes.
25 Q And did you tell his personal lawyer -- whether it
293
1 was Mr. Merrett or Mr. Jonas or Ms. Ricci -- did you tell
2 his personal lawyer that you were going to go over these
3 questions with him?
4 A No.
5 Q Were you his lawyer at this point?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you talk to him at all that weekend -- at all
8 that weekend about the $500,000 UBS check?
9 THE COURT: Are you talking the one he got in
10 May?
11 MR. WEINBERG: May of 2000.
12 A I don't think so. I don't think so. Now, at this
13 time, by the way, March -- or February of 2002, we had a
14 stay in effect, talking about any money from any source, so
15 that is why I don't think we ever talked about it, because
16 there was a stay.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Did you talk to him about the LMT transfers during
19 this -- whatever you want to call it -- session with him
20 where you went over the Fifth Amendment questions?
21 A You mean the -- the Clambake and the anonymous
22 $500,000?
23 Q Yes.
24 A No.
25 Q Weren't those some of the questions?
294
1 A I don't -- well, you have to show me, then I'll
2 tell you. I mean, if it's a question, then we talked about
3 it. Right now, I don't remember talking about it.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 30A. Actually, this is a
5 good thing to mark. This is what he used.
6 THE CLERK: 154.
7 MR. WEINBERG: This is 154, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, if you'll look at 154, Defense Exhibit 154,
11 is that the document that you used to go over the questions
12 with Mr. Minton?
13 A Well, I should -- I don't -- I don't know. Isn't
14 there an order?
15 Q Well, the order refers to this document. I'll
16 show you the order. Do you want to see the order?
17 A No.
18 THE COURT: Does the order have questions in
19 it?
20 MR. WEINBERG: No.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Particularly starting on Page 10, you'll see the
23 questions start appearing. Then from Page 10 to the end --
24 A So Page 10 at the bottom, Number 1, that is the
25 first question, "Alone with Mr. Dandar?"
295
1 Q Yes.
2 A "You pled the Fifth to that, right?"
3 THE COURT: All of these are questions he pled
4 the Fifth to?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I told him, "What are you
6 doing this for? This is crazy."
7 A Yes. This is probably it. This is probably the
8 document.
9 THE COURT: Was it a document that Mr. Minton
10 had at his house, whatever it was?
11 THE WITNESS: It was like this. Yes, I'm
12 pretty sure this is it.
13 THE COURT: This is not something you took with
14 you and left there?
15 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't pay any attention
16 to this.
17 THE COURT: So what did Mr. Minton say? I
18 don't remember.
19 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he said.
20 THE COURT: Was it this document, or something
21 like this?
22 MR. WEINBERG: He said it was this document.
23 THE COURT: I'm surprised it hasn't already
24 been produced if he said it was this document. I
25 don't know what he said. The deal is it doesn't
296
1 really matter. He has the questions. This has the
2 questions.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q My question to you is if you look at Page 11,
5 you'll see Question Number 5, "Was any of this money that
6 was paid to you from LMT later transferred to Mr. Dandar?"
7 Then Question 6, "Did you use any of this
8 $300,000 --"
9 THE COURT: Don't go so fast, Counselor. You
10 are driving my court reporter crazy.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I apologize.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q "Did you use any of this $300,000 from Mr. Lund to
14 make any payments to Mr. Dandar?
15 "Number 7. Do you know what the source of the
16 Operation Clambake funds?"
17 Do you see those?
18 A Yes. Yes.
19 Q That means you would have -- you did go over those
20 questions and that subject matter with Mr. Minton?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And you also went over the concept of the loan?
23 The first question?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And --
297
1 A I -- I can tell you, though, that -- now that you
2 refreshed my memory, Number 6, Mr. Lund, his answer to that
3 was: "Friends in Europe."
4 Then there is another one, I think, in here, if
5 I'm not mistaken, $500,000. And he said that was anonymous.
6 I said then, "Just tell them. Who cares?"
7 THE COURT: So, in other words, he stated the
8 $300,000 was from Mr. Lund?
9 THE WITNESS: Right.
10 THE COURT: The $500,000 was from friends in
11 Europe?
12 THE WITNESS: Friends. Well, $300,000 was
13 anonymous, as far as he knew. And the $500,000 --
14 well, one way or the other. One was from friends he
15 apparently knew, and the other, when I met with him,
16 he said was truly anonymous. Well, we find out that
17 is not true.
18 THE COURT: So he didn't say either of these
19 were from Mr. Lund? The money from Operation
20 Clambake?
21 THE WITNESS: Well --
22 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Lund was Operation
23 Clambake?
24 THE WITNESS: He is. But, you know, I think he
25 said that was either anonymous to Lund so -- to the
298
1 LMT, or friends. He talked about the 300, he talked
2 about the 500. Never did he say it was his money.
3 THE COURT: So the source of the $300,000, even
4 though it may have come from Lund, from Operation
5 Clambake, the source was from friends or anonymous?
6 THE WITNESS: Correct.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Was there anything else, your
9 Honor?
10 THE COURT: No. I'm sorry. I was just trying
11 to --
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q If you look at Number 8 on Page 11.
14 A Yes?
15 Q "Mr. Minton, at your last deposition you testified
16 you had given Mr. Dandar $1,050,000 for the Liebreich case
17 as of that date." Then he goes on.
18 My question to you is did you discuss with
19 Mr. Minton, while you were up in New Hampshire, his prior
20 testimony about $1,050,000 and the fact that that did not
21 include the $500,000 UBS check?
22 A I don't think so because that wasn't from
23 Mr. Minton. But there was also a stay in effect, so you
24 wouldn't have been allowed to ask that question -- or
25 Mr. Moxon would not be allowed to ask that question.
299
1 Q Well, whether we were or not, my question is do
2 you have a recollection of talking to him about it?
3 A Not about this UBS check.
4 Q Now, after --
5 THE COURT: You really need to kind of move to
6 the issues. What the law --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I think we are getting there.
8 THE COURT: One is a $500,000 check and who it
9 came from. Two is the agreement. And it seems to
10 me you covered just about all you need to cover,
11 except whatever you can draw from the inferences you
12 are going to draw from arguments as to whether or
13 not Mr. Minton directed this case.
14 But you need to get to the money and you need
15 to get to the agreement, and then you need to move
16 on to your next witness, if you have one.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q After the meeting, you had your investigator, Rick
19 Spector, direct a telephone encryption device to be sent to
20 Mr. Minton, didn't you?
21 A At his request, that is right.
22 Q At Mr. Minton's request?
23 A Right.
24 Q Let me just hand you up -- this has been
25 previously marked as 95 --
300
1 THE COURT: We don't need to go over that, do
2 we? What do you need to do, make sure he can
3 identify it?
4 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, this is a very
5 important document as to the issues in this case, I
6 believe.
7 A I never saw this until --
8 THE COURT: It's a letter from somebody else.
9 THE WITNESS: Rick Spector. I was really upset
10 with the language of the letter.
11 THE COURT: Who is he?
12 THE WITNESS: My private investigator, my
13 videographer. Sometimes you see him sitting over
14 here.
15 THE COURT: Is he the fellow with the mustache?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. He likes to --
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q This March 1, 2000 letter was after the meeting in
19 New Hampshire, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And in the second paragraph of this letter,
22 Mr. Spector said, "Ken has asked me to forward the enclosed
23 telephone encryption device to your attention and request
24 that it be used for future conversations between you and
25 other members of the trial team. While I cannot guarantee
301
1 this to be 100 percent solution, I do expect it to go a long
2 way toward keeping their noses," in quotes," out of our
3 business."
4 Do you see that?
5 A I sure do.
6 Q And he says in here that you asked him to do this.
7 Is that true?
8 A I just asked him to send him the encryption
9 device, period. I didn't ask him to pretend to be a lawyer
10 or whatever in this letter.
11 Q Well, is it also true that you -- that you
12 intended for these devices to be used for future
13 conversations between Mr. Minton and other members of the
14 trial team?
15 A No.
16 Q Was Mr. Minton a member of the trial team?
17 A No.
18 Q Well, who was a member of the trial team at that
19 time in March of 2002?
20 A Mmm, Dr. Garko, Tom Haverty and, of course, my
21 office.
22 Q And Mr. Spector?
23 A Mmm, well, he's an independent contractor. But
24 he's -- when he's working for me, he's part of the trial
25 team.
302
1 Q Well, when you sent -- had this telephone
2 encryption device sent to Mr. Minton, what was it for?
3 Conversations with whom?
4 A Me. Mr. Minton was extremely nervous and worried
5 about Scientology bugging his phone. He would call me -- if
6 he wanted to talk to me about something that he didn't want
7 them to hear, he would get in his truck on his farm and
8 drive up to the tallest mountain and call me from his cell
9 phone.
10 Q Now, who else got these encryption devices?
11 THE COURT: What good is that?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, hopefully, the cell phone
13 is not -- you can't bug a cell phone.
14 THE COURT: Does it matter if you are on the
15 tallest mountain versus somewhere else?
16 THE WITNESS: There is no reception in his
17 house. He has to get up to the top of the hill.
18 THE COURT: I see.
19 THE WITNESS: He's down at the bottom of the
20 hill.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Who else got the encryption devices?
23 A Me. That is it. Just between him and I.
24 Q And who paid for the encryption devices?
25 A Well, I did. He never paid for this one. In
303
1 fact, he was so excited about it, he tried it out with me
2 and it didn't work and he sent it back to the company and I
3 had to send mine back to the company, and we both got new
4 replacements.
5 Q Now, Mr. Spector says, "Ken," that is you, "has
6 also asked me to find out from you," that is, Mr. Minton,
7 "how many of the individuals on your end will be needing
8 these devices and to facilitate their distribution."
9 Is it true that you asked Mr. Spector to find out
10 from Mr. Minton how many other people needed these devices
11 on his end?
12 A No. That is not exactly true. What I told him to
13 do is to see if he wants to buy any of these for his other
14 lawyers.
15 Q And then there is -- this whole thing is stamped
16 confidential. Did you instruct Mr. Spector to do that?
17 A No.
18 Q And then the second page is an invoice. And it
19 looks like Mr. Minton is being billed for the encryption
20 device, right?
21 A Yes. Too much, also.
22 Q What do you mean, too much?
23 A Well, it was just too much.
24 Q You mean this is all the encryption devices? They
25 didn't cost this much is what you're saying?
304
1 A No. A single one, I think, is 700-something. But
2 they are being billed way too much for it. And Bob Minton
3 told me about that. And I said -- because it's on the
4 Internet. You can buy this.
5 And I said, "Well, then reduce it to whatever you
6 can buy it for on the Internet." That could be what the
7 59135 is at the bottom. I'm not sure.
8 Q Then Mr. Spector writes, "You may wish to use
9 money order to preclude trace." Do you see that?
10 A Yes. I -- that is Rick Spector.
11 Q Was that a suggestion you made to Mr. Spector that
12 these funds not be traced in some way?
13 A No.
14 Q Well --
15 A It is going to Rick Spector. It's not coming to
16 me.
17 Q Well, were you concerned about tracing funds from
18 Mr. Minton to you?
19 A No.
20 Q Were you concerned -- I mean, was that one of the
21 reasons for the $500,000 and $250,000 UBS checks, because
22 you were concerned about trace?
23 A No. In fact, I wish Mr. Minton would have just
24 written a check for $5 million and I could show it to you.
25 But he didn't do it that way. Of course, I didn't want to
305
1 show it to you, any money. That is why we appealed it.
2 Q Now, five days -- or a few days after Mr. Spector
3 sent this telephone encryption device with the note about
4 trace to Mr. Minton, he sent you a second UBS check.
5 Correct?
6 A The second UBS check was somewhere around March 9.
7 Q It is dated March 7 for $250,000. But you got it
8 a few days later?
9 A Yes, it is probably even later than that then. It
10 is probably the 12th.
11 Q All right. And was -- did you have any
12 discussion, during this New Hampshire weekend with
13 Mr. Minton, about a second UBS check?
14 A Not -- no. Nothing that said about UBS check. I
15 had a discussion with him at the dinner table Saturday night
16 about money.
17 Q Well, what do you recall he said and what did you
18 say back?
19 A He said, "I have no more money for you."
20 And I said, "I understand that." And, you know,
21 "I appreciate everything you have done so far."
22 He said, "However, I have my friends in Europe, as
23 you know, and we'll call him the 'Fat Man.'"
24 I said, "Is that because he's fat?"
25 He said, "Some people think so."
306
1 And -- and then he brought up these things, "If
2 you quit talking with Patricia Greenway and if you get these
3 Internet critics to stop criticizing me, and if you write
4 this letter," which he now calls the suck-up letter that he
5 asked me to write, Mmm, "then my friends in Europe will know
6 that you're sincere and I can ask them to send you money."
7 So he confirmed everything that Jesse Prince told
8 me right then and there.
9 Q Jesse Prince hadn't said anything about the "Fat
10 Man," right?
11 A No. Nor did he say -- I don't think Jesse
12 mentioned the letter, so that is something different.
13 Q Had the words "Fat Man" ever crossed Mr. Minton's
14 lips before to you, before this February 2002 dinner
15 meeting?
16 A Not that I remember. I think that was the first
17 time.
18 Q And did you tell him that that was preposterous,
19 that it sounded ridiculous?
20 A No. That is when we went over these questions.
21 The next day he brought up the name "Fat Man."
22 Q The second time?
23 A Yeah -- yes.
24 Q So with regard to what did the "Fat Man" come up
25 on the Fifth Amendment questions?
307
1 A Somewhere in here he talked about the "Fat Man"
2 for Clambake or the $500,000 transfer, if the $500,000
3 transfer is in these questions, and I'm sure it is.
4 THE COURT: Transfer meaning the money paid to
5 LMT?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. And that is when he brought
7 up the "Fat Man."
8 And that is when I told him, you know, the
9 Judge is not going to listen to that, and that is an
10 appropriate response.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q But you did tell him that in relation to you
13 getting more money?
14 A On the Saturday night? No.
15 Q I mean, did you quiz him as to who these people --
16 who this "Fat Man" was?
17 A I did. I tried.
18 Q What country he was from? Did ask you him that?
19 A Mmm, you know, I may have. I'm not sure. I
20 remember Switzerland and Germany figuring in this picture,
21 but I can't tell you what he said.
22 Q Did you ask him what his relationship was to this
23 "Fat Man"?
24 A He said friends.
25 THE COURT: I think he said -- so I can
308
1 understand this weird discussion -- but I think what
2 he said -- Mr. Minton said was, "I have friends,"
3 plural, "in Europe. Let's call them the "Fat Man."
4 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Why don't I ask. So there was more than one
7 person?
8 A No. I understood he had friends in Europe who was
9 interested in giving me money. But then he only
10 mentioned -- he said, "Well, let's call him the "Fat Man."
11 Q Call him the "Fat Man"?
12 A Yes. I don't think he was talking about a group
13 of friends, calling all of them singular the "Fat Man." He
14 talked to me about one person.
15 Q All right. And you took it, the next day when you
16 were going over the Fifth Amendment questions and went over
17 the LMT money, that this was the same "Fat Man" that was
18 providing money to the LMT was someone that Mr. Minton would
19 talk to about providing money to you?
20 A Right. Yes. Yes.
21 Q Okay.
22 A But I just told him he couldn't say the "Fat Man"
23 in a deposition, or -- Judge Schaeffer would not appreciate
24 it. "You are going to have to start identifying people.
25 You need to identify them."
309
1 Q Did you tell him that it was necessary for you, in
2 order to take money, to know who this person was?
3 A No. Up until Mr. Minton met with the Church of
4 Scientology after this, although we had an arm's length
5 relationship, he was -- he trusted me 100 percent.
6 Q Now, when you -- when Mr. Minton handed you the
7 $500,000 check --
8 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I have to stop you. And
9 I apologize.
10 When you were talking with Mr. Minton at the
11 dinner table and you said he verified everything
12 that Mr. Prince had told you except write the
13 letter, did he say you had to stop talking with
14 Ms. Greenway?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: So he mentioned stop friends from
17 talking on the Internet, stop talking to Patricia
18 Greenway?
19 THE WITNESS: Well, to get the two critics to
20 stop talking -- writing about him on the Internet
21 and stop talking to Patricia Greenway.
22 THE COURT: The last thing was write me a
23 letter. He didn't say, "Write me a suck-up letter."
24 What did he say?
25 THE WITNESS: He said, "Write a letter that
310
1 expresses what you think about the support I have
2 given you in the past. So I will show that to my
3 friends in Europe and they'll see that you are not
4 out there attacking me like these other two people
5 are."
6 Because when I got there, as I think either I
7 testified about this already or -- I mean, he was in
8 this -- well, while Ms. Brooks is cooking dinner
9 Saturday night, he's in the kitchen going through
10 this emotional breakdown again that I saw only once
11 before. And it scared the heck out of me. Now he's
12 in his house doing this.
13 And I go up to him and I said, "What's
14 happening?" You know, "Why are you looking like
15 this?"
16 And he's crying profusely and he's saying, you
17 know, "I thought you didn't like me anymore. I
18 thought you weren't my friends anymore. And I'm
19 just beside myself. Why are you acting like this?
20 Why do you think that?"
21 It was because of all these attacks on the
22 Internet by these two people that he thought I was
23 behind. And I wasn't.
24 But I did get them to stop because I put the
25 word out that, "Please stop this attack."
311
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Now --
3 THE COURT: I'm sorry. This is about Miss
4 Greenway.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Anything else?
6 THE COURT: No. Nothing from me.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q Now, when Mr. Minton handed you the $500,000 check
9 at the Bombay -- whatever it is -- Cycle Club --
10 A Bombay Bicycle Club, which is now out of business.
11 Q At the Bombay Bicycle Club, when he handed you
12 that $500,000 check, the UBS check, back in early May of
13 2000, who did he say it was from?
14 A Friends in Europe.
15 Q He didn't say the "Fat Man" back then?
16 A You know, I don't think so. I don't think so.
17 Q And you didn't ask him back then to identify who
18 the source of the funds was?
19 A No. He said friends in Europe. I knew he had
20 wealthy friends in Europe because of his background, so I
21 didn't question it.
22 Q Now, shortly after the meeting in -- or the visit
23 in New Hampshire -- we're back in 2002 now -- when you got
24 back to -- back to Tampa, you did get in the mail Exhibit
25 93I, which is the March 7, 2002 $250,000 --
312
1 THE COURT: By the way, tell me why we're going
2 into that check at all? What does that have to do
3 with this case, this issue before me? There are no
4 lies about that. It is not subject of any --
5 MR. WEINBERG: He asked Mr. Minton a number of
6 questions about it.
7 THE COURT: Pardon me?
8 MR. WEINBERG: He asked Mr. Minton a number of
9 questions about it.
10 THE COURT: Okay. So I guess we're just going
11 to hear about it because both sides have an interest
12 in it?
13 I'm going to tell you now, I have not an
14 interest in it unless it might relate to the
15 $500,000 check.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is essentially what
17 I'm doing, your Honor. That was really going to be
18 my next question.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q You got this in the mail from him, correct?
22 A It came in the mail while I was out of town.
23 Q Is what he said while you were asking him
24 questions true, that it was sort of tucked in either paper
25 or affidavit of Carol Letkeman, who was going to be your
313
1 expert?
2 A That is partially true.
3 THE COURT: Did he say it was in an affidavit?
4 I thought he said it was something she wrote, some
5 essay.
6 A You are right. That is true.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q Was it in an essay he sent you?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What was partially true about that?
11 A I didn't ask him to put it in an essay, to hide it
12 on Page 23 or whatever he described. That is like cloak and
13 dagger. He's sending it to my office. My secretary will be
14 there to open it up. I mean, there is no cloak and dagger.
15 But what is interesting about all of this -- and I
16 still don't know the answer to this -- is that he was
17 extremely concerned that I hurry up and deposit that check.
18 I don't know -- I took it to mean that, you know, something
19 was going on wherever this check came from, because we had a
20 couple of phone calls about that.
21 Q You and Mr. Minton had a couple phone calls about
22 it?
23 A About something going on in Switzerland, and he
24 was really, really, really concerned about --
25 Q Did he say what he was concerned about?
314
1 A Well, it was after this check came, I deposited
2 the check, he calls me up and asks me, "Did the court in
3 Florida send something out to the Swiss banks, like a letter
4 interrogatory, a subpoena for documents?"
5 I said, "Not as far as I know."
6 I asked him, "Why are you asking me this
7 question?"
8 He said, "Because something is happening in the
9 Swiss banks. And there is a new prosecutor in Switzerland,
10 there is a new judge. They had a hearing about me."
11 And he suspected Scientology was behind all that
12 because they were behind the false accusations in Nigeria --
13 at least he told me they were false. But he was extremely
14 concerned. And that is when he said I need to hurry up and
15 deposit the check, because somehow his friends and he were
16 somehow implicated in whatever was going on in the Swiss
17 bank.
18 Q Well, did you take it, from that conversation,
19 that this was really Mr. Minton's money that --
20 A No, I thought --
21 Q -- that he was concerned about?
22 A No. Remember now, he won't tell me everything.
23 So what I took from the conversation was his friends were
24 now getting implicated somehow, and he was worried. And he
25 used the name the "Fat Man" again on the telephone. And he
315
1 said the "Fat Man" is extremely upset because now he's going
2 to get implicated by this Swiss prosecutor, whatever he's up
3 to. And he told me to hurry up and deposit the check.
4 Q Which you did?
5 A Well, I did. Sure.
6 Q Now --
7 A The reason why he was calling me is because I was
8 out of town when the check arrived at my office, and I'm the
9 only one that could deposit the check.
10 Q Weren't you calling him about the check, where it
11 was?
12 A No. No.
13 Q That is what he said.
14 A No, that is not right. It was just the opposite.
15 He was calling me about the check.
16 I said, "My secretary said it is not there yet."
17 He said, "I tracked it down. It's a -- it's a
18 postal service. I got the tracking number. It's sitting in
19 your post office box. Go get it and deposit it as soon as
20 you can."
21 Q Did --
22 A I was out of town on a deposition in this case.
23 Q Well, when you got back, you saw the check, you're
24 the one that would have had to do whatever you did to it?
25 A Yes. I deposited it in a local bank, not in the
316
1 Cayman Islands.
2 Q And when you got -- when you looked at the check,
3 it looked virtually identical to the $500,000 check you had
4 gotten in May of 2000, correct?
5 A Well, I had no clue. I mean, I don't remember the
6 check from May of 2000, to be honest with you.
7 Q You don't remember it?
8 A No. I don't remember it being a UBS check, you
9 know. I didn't look at the check and look at the numbers on
10 it, like Mr. Rosen insinuated I could figure out it was
11 Minton's money. I mean, I didn't do any of that. It's
12 impossible to do that, by the way.
13 Q But you remember getting a $500,000 -- you'd never
14 gotten a $500,000 check from Mr. Minton prior to May of
15 2000, right?
16 A That is true.
17 Q And that was the first check that didn't have his
18 name on it --
19 A True.
20 Q -- so you certainly would remember that, right?
21 A Not really. Not in March of 2002, I didn't
22 remember that.
23 Q The first foreign bank check you'd gotten?
24 A As I said, until this all hit the fan, I did not
25 know -- or remember, I should say, that the $500,000 check
317
1 was a UBS bank check. I just knew it wasn't a Minton check.
2 Q But it's your testimony that at this point in time
3 in March of 2002 you did not suspect that the moneys that
4 you had received from Mr. Minton in May of 2000, the
5 $500,000 check, and the moneys you had just recently
6 received in March of 2000 (sic) in the UBS checks, was
7 Mr. Minton's money?
8 A That is correct.
9 THE COURT: I have a question, if you don't
10 mind.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
12 THE COURT: Did you and Mr. Minton, in all your
13 conversations, have any conversation about the fact
14 he had money in Europe?
15 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
16 THE COURT: Did you ever have discussions about
17 the fact he knew that this could create tax
18 consequences if he brought money made in Europe into
19 this country?
20 THE WITNESS: Mmm, we had several
21 conversations. Again, though, he held back on
22 details about he had tax evasion concerns.
23 Money laundering, no, because, to me, money
24 laundering is dirty money. And I never thought for
25 a second he had anything to do with dirty money.
318
1 That was Mr. Moxon's allegations.
2 But bringing money into the country that you
3 haven't paid tax on, because I think the ceiling is
4 $80,000 annually you can make without paying taxes
5 on it if it is outside -- offshore. But once you
6 bring it in, you have to declare it, you have to pay
7 tax on it.
8 So his problem always has been he didn't pay
9 tax on the money in Europe.
10 THE COURT: So when you were having these
11 conversations with Mr. Minton, granted you were not
12 his lawyer so I presume he didn't give you
13 confidential information, but you were aware that
14 Mr. Minton had concerns about bringing this money,
15 apparently a lot of it, that he had in Europe into
16 this country?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 THE COURT: For tax consequences?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
20 THE COURT: Okay. When you got this $500,000
21 check that, for all intents and purposes, was
22 nontraceable, and when you got this $250,000 check
23 that was, for all intents and purposes,
24 nontraceable, didn't it ever occur to you that
25 Mr. Minton was doing this, not telling you that it
319
1 was his money, because he was trying to avoid paying
2 taxes on it?
3 THE WITNESS: Honest, it never occurred to me.
4 THE COURT: Well, for God sakes, I mean --
5 THE WITNESS: I had no reason --
6 THE COURT: -- weren't you thinking? You
7 really thought this came from some "Fat Man" or some
8 screwball -- I mean, you couldn't put two and two
9 together?
10 THE WITNESS: I thought -- I thought -- I
11 didn't have any reason to suspect Mr. Minton was
12 lying to me. Never.
13 THE COURT: Well, maybe Mr. Minton didn't want
14 to tell you because you were not his lawyer.
15 Therefore, you could be subpoenaed. Right?
16 THE WITNESS: That's right.
17 THE COURT: Well, couldn't you think that far
18 in advance as a lawyer, for goodness sakes?
19 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't, Judge.
20 THE COURT: You knew, though, he was concerned
21 about bringing his money into this country because
22 he had to declare it and he had to pay taxes on it?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the only two checks
24 I knew about that came in that were not in his
25 account.
320
1 THE COURT: That is a lot of money. Do you
2 know how much taxes you have got to pay on $750,000?
3 THE WITNESS: But I was certain, in my mind,
4 that it was not his money. He had other money he
5 was concerned about.
6 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure he does. I'm sure
7 he has got a lot of money. But when you got this
8 money, this nontraceable money, it never dawned on
9 you, after having these conversations with
10 Mr. Minton, that Mr. Minton was, in fact, dodging
11 taxes by bringing this money in untraceable and
12 giving it to you to assist you in your -- in your
13 pursuit of this case?
14 THE WITNESS: No. But let me say one thing. I
15 never thought it was untraceable, either. To this
16 day I don't think it is untraceable. I think if you
17 had a private investigator to go out and track down
18 UBS Bank, I think you could probably figure out
19 where this money came from.
20 THE COURT: I suppose that is true, Mr. Dandar.
21 And I suppose if the IRS, once they found out about
22 this -- and I have no doubt that they will -- that
23 they will, indeed -- they don't have to go very far,
24 they only have to go as far as this transcript, and
25 I assume Mr. Minton will be paying his just taxes on
321
1 this money.
2 But you knew he had a concern about bringing
3 money in this country because he had to pay taxes on
4 it. And that is why people keep money in a Swiss
5 bank account, right?
6 THE WITNESS: I would think so.
7 THE COURT: Yes. And so I'm just trying to say
8 you are a lawyer, for heaven's sakes. You are
9 getting something from the "Fat Man" and you are
10 getting something from "my friends in Europe" and
11 you are getting a conversation saying, "Hurry up and
12 deposit money, there are problems going on," and
13 this never dawns on you, a lawyer, for heaven's
14 sake, a man with God knows how many years of
15 education, that this money came from Mr. Minton who
16 didn't want to tell you about it because you weren't
17 his lawyer and, therefore, it wasn't confidential.
18 Is that your testimony?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: You thought it was coming from
21 somebody else?
22 THE WITNESS: Honest to God, I did.
23 THE COURT: Well, you are one naive lawyer. I
24 hope that in the future, whatever happens to your
25 career in the process of this case, that you will
322
1 not be so naive as to think that the "Fat Man" would
2 send you $500,000, or $200,000 or $300,000 or
3 whatever it was, and some friends -- some friends in
4 Europe of somebody are going to anonymously donate
5 to you whatever the other one is.
6 It is outrageous for you to sit there and tell
7 me that you just thought these folks over there
8 could send you three-quarters of a million dollars.
9 Do you know how ridiculous that sounds, Mr. Dandar?
10 THE WITNESS: Well, after what Mr. Minton had
11 given me out of his personal accounts, it wasn't
12 that farfetched.
13 THE COURT: Well, you knew why Mr. Minton
14 wanted to give you money. Mr. Minton wanted to give
15 you money because Mr. Minton believed in this
16 lawsuit at that time.
17 THE WITNESS: Correct.
18 THE COURT: No question about it.
19 THE WITNESS: Correct.
20 THE COURT: And he said, "I'll stand by you to
21 the end, I'll see you through this"?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: The "Fat Man," as far as you knew,
24 had no interest in this case?
25 THE WITNESS: No --
323
1 THE COURT: Friends in Europe had no interest
2 in this case?
3 THE WITNESS: I believe they did. I believe
4 they did. I also know there were other people in
5 Europe who wanted to give money to the LMT, but the
6 LMT was not -- it was a for profit. They wanted a
7 nonprofit. And they wanted to give it to a
8 nonprofit entity. And so they did not give it to
9 the LMT because of that. There were people in
10 Germany and Switzerland who were very interested in
11 the LMT and this case.
12 THE COURT: And what are you trying to tell us,
13 that they wouldn't contribute in their own name
14 because they were afraid of the Church of
15 Scientology? Is that it?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: And -- and, therefore, you just
18 thought that it would be okay -- I mean, I don't get
19 it. I don't know -- if you had to go to all of the
20 trouble to write the Bar, to take a $100,000 check,
21 and had to go through all this rigmarole with the
22 Bar, write letters, all this sort of stuff that you
23 thought, what -- what, you could take $750,000, not
24 even know who it came from?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, I knew -- well, I knew that
324
1 I would be paying this money back. I knew it was
2 all loans.
3 THE COURT: Who were you going to pay it to,
4 pray tell?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, I suspected -- not
6 suspected but expected Mr. Minton to tell me who to
7 write the check to when it was time to pay it back.
8 THE COURT: Well, as I said, it is hard for me
9 to believe -- and I am no genius here, and I am no
10 mental giant or anything of the sort. But once you
11 have a conversation with somebody, once you talked
12 to somebody who maybe isn't a good friend but
13 somebody you sit down and chat with, and you say,
14 "Boy, I have all this money --" you knew Mr. Minton
15 was a very rich guy?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: And you knew he had money over in
18 Europe. I don't know if you knew it was a Swiss
19 bank, but you knew he had money?
20 THE WITNESS: Offshore somewhere.
21 THE COURT: He made a lot of money over in
22 Nigeria with whatever was going on there?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 THE COURT: And to get into -- in the country,
25 he had to either pay taxes on it or get it in
325
1 slippery somehow. Right?
2 THE WITNESS: Well, I would assume that.
3 THE COURT: Well, you have to assume that, you
4 either pay taxes on it or you hide it?
5 THE WITNESS: I assume there is a certain
6 amount he paid taxes on and a certain amount he
7 didn't pay taxes on, just from what I could pick up
8 from Mr. Minton and other people.
9 THE COURT: You put it your way and I'll put it
10 my way. And you knew this. And you were getting
11 money Mr. Minton either handed you in a restaurant
12 or sent you in the mail for a half a million dollars
13 and a quarter of a million dollars. These are big
14 moneys.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Even to you. Right?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Even to me.
18 THE COURT: And you knew Mr. Minton's
19 situation. And it didn't occur to you, rather than
20 drawing this out of his own check -- his own account
21 in this country, that he might get that money
22 offshore and get it to you and not to have to pay
23 taxes on it?
24 THE WITNESS: Never. Because he was writing
25 personal checks before and after. So I didn't think
326
1 that all of a sudden this one check in May, he has
2 to do it differently because of taxes. And the one
3 in March, he has to do it differently because of
4 taxes. That is why --
5 THE COURT: You were listening to these
6 depositions of LMT, right?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 THE COURT: You knew about another $500,000, I
9 guess, from European folks to support LMT?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was convinced that was an
11 anonymous donation.
12 THE COURT: It never dawned on you somebody is
13 bringing money in this country without paying the
14 government?
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 THE COURT: Well, all right. That is fine.
17 THE WITNESS: I had no reason to suspect him of
18 not telling the truth.
19 THE COURT: I don't get it, Mr. Dandar. When
20 somebody says this is coming from the "Fat Man," for
21 goodness sakes. Come on. What did you say? "What
22 do you mean, the 'Fat Man'? Who in the world is the
23 'Fat Man'? Who are you talking about?"
24 THE WITNESS: I did ask him that question.
25 THE COURT: What did he say?
327
1 THE WITNESS: He said, "That is a friend of
2 mine in Europe and that is as far as I'm going to
3 go."
4 THE COURT: At least you did say who?
5 THE WITNESS: I did say who because I wanted to
6 know if he would tell me. And he wouldn't.
7 THE COURT: And he said, "I'm not telling you"?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And that was good enough for you?
10 THE WITNESS: That was good enough.
11 THE COURT: And these friends in Europe, you
12 just figured that was a bunch of folks who just
13 happened to give you, which one was it, $500,000, a
14 half a million bucks?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 THE COURT: Whew. Well, boy oh boy, I'm going
17 to sell you something one day.
18 Continue.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q The $500,000 in May of 2000, was that a loan to
21 you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q It was not a loan to the estate?
24 A No.
25 Q And there was no written document anywhere about
328
1 that $500,000 loan, correct?
2 A Correct.
3 THE COURT: Can we lump all these things
4 together? Is there going to be --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
6 THE COURT: I mean, all these checks? Let's
7 get on --
8 MR. WEINBERG: Particularly in light of some of
9 the testimony, I wanted to focus on certain checks.
10 But --
11 THE COURT: I wonder how he knows what these
12 pals -- these friends in Europe expected this to be.
13 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I was going to ask
14 him.
15 THE COURT: You ought to just argue this stuff
16 to me. I mean, I don't know what -- what did you
17 think? I'm curious, too.
18 THE WITNESS: I thought it was all the same
19 terms as the original $100,000.
20 THE COURT: How did you know? You couldn't
21 even talk to them. You didn't know who they were.
22 THE WITNESS: I trusted Mr. Minton. He tells
23 me it is from his friends, when this is over with
24 and I have money to pay it back, I tell Mr. Minton,
25 "Who do I make the check out to?" I had at least
329
1 that type of trust relationship with him.
2 THE COURT: When he said, "I'm not going to
3 tell you," what are you going to do then?
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know what I'm going to
5 do.
6 THE COURT: You're going to keep the money?
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 THE COURT: Who are you going to make it out
9 to? You try to make it out to him, he'll say, "I
10 don't want it. For goodness sake, I was trying to
11 avoid paying taxes on it the first time."
12 THE WITNESS: I anticipated him telling me who
13 to make it out to.
14 THE COURT: Why didn't he give you the name
15 then?
16 THE WITNESS: They didn't want to be known
17 then.
18 THE COURT: Do you think they would want to be
19 known to be paid back?
20 THE WITNESS: I think I could keep it
21 confidential when I pay it back.
22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I just get --
23 MR. WEINBERG: It is all right.
24 THE COURT: It is just amazing to me.
25
330
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Were you concerned, Mr. Dandar, either in May of
3 2000 or March of 2002, that this was dirty money?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you call the Bar --
6 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. When you use
7 the term "dirty money," are you referring to
8 laundered money?
9 MR. WEINBERG: I'll make it clear.
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q The Judge already asked you, were you concerned
12 whether Mr. Minton or whoever it was was evading taxes. And
13 I think you said no. Right?
14 A Repeat that.
15 Q Well, I'll break the question down.
16 Were you concerned, when you got the money in May
17 of 2000 and March of 2002, that somebody was trying to avoid
18 taxes?
19 A No.
20 Q Were you concerned, in May of 2000 or March of
21 2002, that these funds from this -- according to you --
22 anonymous source was illegal moneys?
23 A No.
24 Q And that is what I mean. Do you understand what I
25 mean by dirty money? Money from illegal sources?
331
1 A No.
2 THE COURT: Either from drugs, or from some
3 sort of --
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Fraud scheme?
6 THE COURT: -- fraud schemes?
7 A No. Never.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q It never occurred to you?
10 A Never.
11 Q All right. Did you call the Florida Bar, in
12 either May of 2000 when Mr. Minton handed you that $500,000
13 check in the Bombay Bicycle Club, or in March of 2002 when
14 you got it in the mail, did you call the Bar and say, "I got
15 this seven hundred, plus five hundred, plus $250,000 from an
16 anonymous source from Switzerland"?
17 A No, I already had the Bar's reply from October of
18 '97.
19 Q Well, did it occur to you that -- that the Bar
20 might have questions about -- about that size of money from
21 offshore -- from an anonymous source?
22 A No. Not at all.
23 THE COURT: Does it occur to you now that they
24 might have questions about it?
25 THE WITNESS: Not the way they talked to me in
332
1 October of '97. They said it was between me
2 personally and a third party. The Bar is not
3 interested in it at all. I could go borrow as much
4 money from anybody I want to.
5 THE COURT: Did they ever suggest you need to
6 know who it was? How in the world would you even
7 know, if you didn't know who it was, that somebody
8 wasn't controlling the case and giving you money?
9 THE WITNESS: They said as long as that person
10 doesn't have control over the case, confidential
11 information, I could go borrow as much as I wanted
12 to.
13 THE COURT: What if the money had been coming
14 from Jesse Prince? I mean, the deal is the Bar
15 would not have given you the same letter or the same
16 discussion -- did you really believe that over
17 $750,000 worth of anonymous money that they gave
18 you, over $100,000 from a very definite person who
19 had a very definite purpose, did you believe that?
20 THE WITNESS: Judge, I believed that none of my
21 witnesses were connected to this money. I believed
22 that Mr. Minton knew who this person was and this
23 person was as genuine as Mr. Minton was.
24 THE COURT: But, for goodness sakes, it was
25 doubling the amount that your friend, Mr. Minton,
333
1 had ever given you.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, the one in May of 2000, I
3 can speculate it was that much money because we were
4 going to trial in June.
5 THE COURT: Well, I mean, it was an awfully
6 generous friend. Mr. Minton who had been your
7 friend, right here, Mr. Big Shot at the LMT,
8 Mr. Carry The Signs, Mr. Shout It Up On The
9 Internet, Mr. Rich Fellow, had given you a lot of
10 money but he'd never given you a check bigger than
11 $250,000?
12 THE WITNESS: That is correct.
13 THE COURT: So all of a sudden these friends in
14 Europe, these pals, gave you double the most you'd
15 ever received from him?
16 THE WITNESS: In May of 2000 I thought that was
17 a one-time deal from whoever these people were.
18 THE COURT: And -- and this $250,000 from the
19 "Fat Man" who you assumed to be a friend --
20 THE WITNESS: A friend.
21 THE COURT: A friend. What did you think that
22 was all about?
23 THE WITNESS: It was someone else that believed
24 in the Lisa McPherson case as strongly as Mr. Minton
25 had.
334
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Did it occur to you that if this was going to be,
4 as you call it, a loan -- an official formal loan to you,
5 that, at minimum, you needed to know who it was that was
6 loaning the money to you?
7 A No, because it was not that formal.
8 Q Well, we've heard a lot in this case about
9 documenting agreements and that there is no agreement unless
10 it is documented. I think, you know, you have asked
11 questions about that, the bulk of the proceeds. Remember?
12 A Right.
13 Q But in this case you say that this $500,000 and
14 the $250,000 was loans to you?
15 A Right.
16 Q Right? But you don't have any agreement?
17 A No.
18 Q Nothing in writing?
19 A No. It goes back --
20 THE COURT: Counselor, there is no documents, I
21 mean --
22 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
23 THE COURT: -- this agreement is not in
24 writing. This business from these folks in Europe
25 is not in writing. I have never seen such things.
335
1 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q So did you think that you had any obligation to
4 pay it back if you didn't have anything in writing?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What was that obligation?
7 A My word. And that note from Mr. Minton in October
8 of '97. And his deposition which explains the understanding
9 between he and I.
10 Q But the note from Mr. Minton had to do with the
11 first $100,000 from him?
12 A Everything --
13 Q Right?
14 A Sure. But everything --
15 Q Right?
16 A And everything was on that note. Everything was
17 explained to him in the January of '98 deposition. I
18 operated under those two things.
19 Q Even with regard to these anonymous moneys?
20 A Yes.
21 THE COURT: You can say, can you not,
22 Mr. Dandar -- trust me, I don't want you to think
23 I'm picking on you any more than I picked on
24 Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton because everybody seems to
25 have some fairly outlandish testimony in this case
336
1 -- but you can understand how, based on just that
2 testimony alone, the fact you assumed all this money
3 was under the same auspices of the letter given to
4 you by Mr. Minton, it's hard for me to sit here and
5 think that you didn't know -- suspect, at the very
6 least, that that money came from Mr. Minton under
7 the same terms you got from Mr. Minton way back when
8 you got the money?
9 THE WITNESS: No, Judge, I did not suspect
10 those two checks came from him because he told me
11 they didn't. I had no reason to believe he was
12 telling me a lie. I'm sitting here now thinking why
13 would he want to lie to me about it?
14 THE COURT: Well, you know, you do and you did,
15 and that is why I'm saying it is so hard to believe
16 you are so naive. If what you're telling me is
17 true, then you are very naive. It's as obvious to
18 me as the man in the moon.
19 The reason he didn't want to tell you, you were
20 not his lawyer and there was no privilege and he was
21 trying to hide this money from the Internal Revenue
22 Service. I mean, it doesn't take a genius to put
23 those three things together.
24 You just assumed that this man didn't want
25 to -- to avoid paying taxes, he was just too
337
1 honorable for that. I don't know what you assumed.
2 THE WITNESS: I didn't put it together.
3 THE COURT: You didn't tie those three things
4 together? That is your testimony and you're going
5 to stand by that?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 THE WITNESS: And the proof is in the pudding
9 of the checks before and after. If it was his
10 money, then just pay me with his personal check like
11 he did before.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, if it was his money and
13 it was in his bank account -- you don't get it yet.
14 THE WITNESS: I guess not.
15 THE COURT: The government gets to go there.
16 If the money is in his bank account, the government
17 says, "Where did it come from?" And if you can't
18 tell them where it came from, guess what? You pay
19 taxes on it. Because they assume it's income. He
20 couldn't put it in his bank account.
21 THE WITNESS: But apparently he did. When the
22 money came in, from the records that we now see, and
23 now I know, when the money came in from the Clambake
24 and the anonymous $500,000 into the LMT accounts,
25 the LMT wrote a check to Mr. Minton.
338
1 THE COURT: Well, yes, they did, didn't they?
2 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Minton wrote checks out
3 of that. So if that is all his money -- I don't
4 know why --
5 THE COURT: You don't get it, Counselor, yet.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm not a tax lawyer.
7 THE COURT: The money coming in was coming into
8 the country. When the money comes into the country,
9 you have got to pay the taxes on it.
10 THE WITNESS: That is what I assume, right.
11 THE COURT: That is what you are hiding. That
12 is what he's hiding is the money coming in from some
13 account over there, would be my guess. And then
14 that is just from my old days of being an agent.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: I mean, you get pretty suspicious
17 about things like that. And, honestly, in fairness,
18 maybe that is why it was fairly obvious to me. I
19 mean, I would have known this if I was sitting in
20 your shoes. Whether I would have cared, I don't
21 know. But I would have known. I would have said,
22 "Oh, right. The "Fat Man." Sure. You know, oh,
23 dear, friends in Europe? Oh, my, have I got a story
24 for you."
25 But I would have known it.
339
1 THE WITNESS: But, see, I knew he had a
2 business partner who was in Europe and who is just
3 as wealthy as Mr. Minton. And I also know his
4 friend, because of Scientology investigators, had to
5 go pay taxes that he owed.
6 I mean, I -- I knew that Mr. Minton was wealthy
7 and he had a circle of friends that he -- I assumed,
8 were as wealthy as he was or even more. So I had no
9 reason to suspect that he was pulling something off
10 or lying to me.
11 THE COURT: But you know what I have seen is
12 that everybody who wants to support this
13 anti-Scientology movement, as far as I can tell,
14 with money is fairly proud of it and wants to be
15 known, wants to toot their horn. Certainly
16 Mr. Minton did. He wanted to bang his chest and
17 toot his horn.
18 All of a sudden you see a little different
19 person in court and, "I don't want to toot any
20 horns," and he doesn't want to be on any internets.
21 But -- boy, we've seen a 180.
22 But I would assume, if I'd been sitting in your
23 shoes, the same thing: Somebody wants to support
24 LMT, somebody wants to support the Lisa McPherson
25 lawsuit, they would have been quite proud of
340
1 themselves.
2 THE WITNESS: But, no, wait. This is what --
3 now I -- now I see what is missing, I think.
4 THE COURT: Well, maybe you do. The light bulb
5 just came on now?
6 THE WITNESS: Well, there is a lot to cover
7 here. But in May of 2000 the discovery against the
8 LMT and Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks was heating up.
9 It had just started, I believe, in February of 2000.
10 Mr. Minton, prior to May of 2000, went on the
11 Internet and told everybody how much money he gave
12 me, to my dismay, which I didn't want him to do, but
13 he did.
14 And we turned over all of the checks, up to
15 January of 2000, because that is what the court
16 order was. And only from Mr. Minton, because
17 Mr. Weinberg said to Judge Moody, "I'm only
18 interested in Mr. Minton." So that is what we did,
19 we complied with all of the court orders.
20 So when he's getting discovered, like he was,
21 in May of 2000, I can understand then and now why he
22 might have people in Europe who have similar
23 thinking as him as to supporting the case but did
24 not want their names disclosed because they did not
25 want to have this discovery go on about their
341
1 finances. And Mr. Minton was being subjected to
2 this -- this discovery of his personal finances.
3 And then it went on in the year 2001. So I get
4 another check in 2002. I can understand -- and I
5 had already gotten a stay entered by the Second
6 District. And I can understand why no one in
7 Europe, if he had anonymous friends like he said he
8 had, wouldn't want me to know who they were so I
9 wouldn't have to disclose it to the Court. They
10 didn't want Scientology to know who they were, they
11 didn't want to be subject to all this discovery. I
12 mean, that makes sense.
13 But Mr. Minton was the only individual I know
14 who was proud and bragged about -- until he started
15 to plead the Fifth --
16 THE COURT: Mr. Minton is also the only one who
17 gave them this kind of money, too, isn't he?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: There weren't any pals in Europe,
20 there wasn't any "Fat Man."
21 THE WITNESS: Well, now I know that is right.
22 THE COURT: So once again, when people give
23 this kind of money, I don't know of a soul who gives
24 this kind of money very often that doesn't like to
25 brag about it. Take it from somebody who knows.
342
1 THE WITNESS: He stopped bragging about it,
2 though.
3 THE COURT: Well, that is when they have a
4 change of heart. Most people are proud when they
5 give money -- it's very hard for people to do
6 anything gratuitously and keep quiet about it.
7 There are people in this world who do; they give
8 money to cancer foundations and charity.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Charity.
10 THE COURT: They do it anonymously. I'm always
11 amazed, there are people that do that, and -- and
12 that could be one of the reasons. But there are
13 lots of people who do that.
14 There are many more people, however, who -- who
15 like for it to be known that they're being generous
16 donating their money. Mr. Minton was clearly one of
17 those at the outset of this case.
18 You know what, if you can wrap up something
19 real fast -- are we done with this money?
20 MR. WEINBERG: We are not done with the money.
21 THE COURT: Why not? What else more are you
22 going to talk about? I mean, this is what
23 Mr. Dandar believes. This is what --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I had a few other questions.
25 THE COURT: Well, try to finish it up. I'm
343
1 going to stay until you finish up a bunch of money.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q In March of 2002 when you got the check from
5 Mr. Minton, I think I heard you say there was already a stay
6 in place?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Well, what was your concern about people -- what
9 was any concern at that point of people's names being
10 identified, given the fact that there was a stay in place?
11 A I didn't say there was, did I?
12 Q Well, I don't know. Why would there need to be
13 anonymity at that point?
14 A Well, March of 2002 my belief was that I was not
15 getting any more money from Mr. Minton, for whatever reason
16 he would never tell me, and I was now getting it from a
17 third party again.
18 Q Did you discuss with your CPA or your accountant
19 how to treat this what you call loan, we're talking about
20 the $750,000 now, for tax purposes?
21 A Privilege.
22 THE COURT: I'll sustain that privilege.
23 Doesn't Florida recognize the CPA privilege?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 THE COURT: I think he can ask you whether
344
1 you --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I just asked whether he had a
3 discussion, yes or no. I wasn't going to go into
4 the details.
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q From --
8 A Well, wait a minute. Maybe I did. I may have. I
9 can't -- I can't really answer yes or no.
10 Q The last three checks you got, the May 1 $500,000
11 UBS check, the May 25, 2001 $250,000 check made out to you
12 personally, and the March 7, 2002 UBS check, that is a
13 million bucks, those were the last three checks you got,
14 right?
15 A I can't say if that is true or not.
16 THE WITNESS: Actually, I don't want to answer
17 that question, Judge.
18 THE COURT: What is that? I'm sorry?
19 THE WITNESS: What are the last three checks
20 that I got.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q The ones that are in this record right now, of the
23 checks in the record, the last three, total one million
24 dollars, May 1, 2000, May 25, 2001, and March 7, 2002?
25 A I can't tell you and I don't want to tell you.
345
1 THE COURT: He's asking you specifically about
2 the last three checks in evidence in this hearing.
3 A Okay. So, I'm sorry, what is your question?
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Those total a million dollars. And each of those
6 checks is made payable to you personally, Ken Dandar, not to
7 the firm but you personally, right?
8 A Yes. Yes.
9 Q All of the other checks in evidence in this case
10 were made payable to Dandar & Dandar?
11 A If that is what it shows, I'll go by the record.
12 Q Okay?
13 A I can't actually answer that.
14 Q And you testified in front of Judge Baird that
15 those last three checks, the ones you say are loans that
16 were made out to you personally, were put into personal
17 accounts?
18 THE COURT: That is an unfair question, an
19 unfair question here, and it won't be answered in my
20 courtroom. And whatever it was he answered in Judge
21 Baird's courtroom will not be part of this record.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
23 THE COURT: And that is based upon the ruling
24 of the -- you're just not -- I mean, frankly, you
25 weren't to have the $500,000 check and you weren't
346
1 to have the $250,000 check pursuant to the ruling of
2 the Second District Court of Appeal. Mr. Minton
3 gave those to you and that is how you have them.
4 Beyond that, you are not to ask him any
5 questions until such time as you get some reversed
6 ruling from some appellate court.
7 I'm not interested in where it went. I'm not
8 interested in whether it went into his personal
9 account. I'm not interested in whether it went into
10 his business account. And I'm not going to let you
11 ask those questions.
12 If you want to ask them, take it up to the
13 Second District Court of Appeal. You are not going
14 to ask it in this courtroom.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Let me ask you a few questions and you tell me if
17 these are appropriate.
18 THE COURT: No, you're not going to ask it. I
19 made it clear. What accounts it went into --
20 MR. WEINBERG: That is not my question.
21 THE COURT: You are not going to ask what he
22 spent it for and how much he has left.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I have no interest in that.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25
347
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q My question is did you ask for personal checks
3 from Mr. Minton in order to hide the money?
4 A No.
5 Q Did you --
6 THE COURT: That was ruled on.
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q Did you ask for personal checks made out to you
9 personally from Mr. Minton to hide it from the IRS?
10 A No.
11 Q To hide it from your staff?
12 A No.
13 Q To hide it from us, the Church of Scientology?
14 A No.
15 Q Well, what was the reason that the last three
16 checks that are in evidence were made out to you personally,
17 as opposed to Dandar & Dandar?
18 A I have no idea.
19 Q Did you discuss that with Mr. Minton at any time,
20 that the checks should be made out to you personally, as
21 opposed to Dandar & Dandar?
22 A No.
23 THE COURT: All decisions on how the checks
24 were made payable, is it your testimony, were
25 Mr. Minton's decision?
348
1 THE WITNESS: Yes. I -- it didn't matter to
2 me.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Now, I have a whole another
4 category that is going to take longer than -- than a
5 few minutes.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: That sort of touches --
8 THE COURT: Is this a good time to break?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it's a good time to break.
10 THE COURT: We'll stop. We'll be in recess
11 until six (sic) o'clock. Even though you are on the
12 stand -- I'm not going to put Mr. Dandar under
13 the -- whatever it is for a witness testifying. He
14 may speak to Mr. Lirot, anybody from his staff.
15 He's still a lawyer in this case. Okay?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
17 THE COURT: I don't think there will be a
18 problem with that.
19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Could I interrupt? You said
21 six, but you meant nine tomorrow morning, right?
22 THE COURT: I sure did. If I said six, I
23 definitely didn't mean it. I definitely didn't.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Because I knew one thing, I
25 wasn't going to be here at six.
349
1 THE COURT: I'm not, either.
2 MR. LIROT: I filed an original, that is a
3 courtesy copy of a motion. I have some additional
4 concerns. I wasn't here last Thursday. I was out
5 of state.
6 I guess the additional testimony about that
7 motion picture, The Profit, had come up. And, quite
8 simply, we don't want to fall into a trap -- I would
9 like to bring this up tomorrow morning. I would
10 like you to look at that copy. I would like to
11 debate any further dissemination. And I have given
12 opposing counsel a copy of that memorandum.
13 THE COURT: I will take this home and read it
14 tonight. I will take home this exhibit. I don't
15 know if I'll bother with it tonight because I know
16 we'll discuss it tomorrow.
17 MR. WEINBERG: And there was that -- well, you
18 didn't need to look at the -- at that E-Mail
19 pleading.
20 THE COURT: We're -- can we go off the record?
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, I just want to put on the
22 record I delivered to Mr. Moxon the amended two
23 requests to produce at hearing from the Church of
24 Scientology.
25 THE COURT: Okay. Did you give me copies?
350
1 Yes, they are up here.
2 MR. DANDAR: Are those the bad ones, or the
3 good ones?
4 THE COURT: These are the good ones, "Hereby
5 request the Church of Scientology --"
6 MR. DANDAR: All right.
7 THE COURT: So we'll take that up in the
8 morning. We'll take up -- well, either in the
9 morning or after lunch, one or the other. Is that
10 it?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
12 THE COURT: We're at ease. Everybody may be at
13 ease.
14 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 5:00
15 p.m.)
16 _____________________________________
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
351
1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter,
certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is
a true and complete record of my stenographic notes.
7
I further certify that I am not a relative,
8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
10
11 DATED this 5th day of June, 2002.
12
13
14 ______________________________
LYNNE J. IDE, RMR
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25