Lisa McPherson Files - Statement of Laura Arrunada

This is the statement of Laura Arrunada, who spent time with Lisa McPherson at the Fort Harrison.

1                  IN THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
                         STATE OF FLORIDA
2                   STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION

3

4     RE: LISA MCPHERSON,
              Deceased.
5
      _________________________________________________/
6

7
                 SWORN STATEMENT OF LAURA ARRUNADA
8
          TAKEN BY:          Office of State Attorney,
9                            Bernie McCabe

10                           April 3, 1997 1:45 p.m.

11        BEFORE:            Sandra A. Ambush, CSR, RMR,
                             Notary Public
12                           State of Florida at large.

13        PLACE:             Office of State Attorney
                             B-200 Criminal Justice Center
14                           Clearwater, FL

15        APPEARANCES:       MARK R. MCGARRY, JR.
                             Assistant State Attorney
16
                             ROBERT P. POLLI,
17                           Barnett Bank Plaza
                             101 East Kennedy Blvd. #3130
18                           Tampa, FL   33602
                             Attorney for Mr. Greenwood
19
                             LEE STROPE,
20                           Florida Dept of Law Enforcement

21                           WAYNE ANDREWS,
                             Clearwater Police Department
22

23

24                    KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT, (813) 224-9500
25            ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER, (813) 821-3320


2
 1                  MR. MCGARRY: You want to place your little
 2    thing on the record?
 3                  MR. POLLI:   Yes.  Thank you.  For the
 4    record, my name is Bob Polli.  I represent Laura Arrunada,
 5    and we are appearing -- she's appearing today pursuant to
 6    a state attorney investigative subpoena that she received
 7    through my office.
 8                  I have explained to Miss Arrunada that with
 9    the subpoena comes the provisions and the protections that
10   are in Florida Statute 6 -- 914.04.   These protections
11   include immunity for her testimony here.   She is therefore
12   testifying with those protections.   We spent some time,
13   I've discussed with her, I've explained it to her and
14   spent some time with her about the concept of immunity and
15   what the protections are.  I believe she understands those
16   protections, and she's here's today to testify
17   accordingly.
18                       LAURA ARRUNADA,
19   the witness herein, being first duly sworn was examined
20   and testified as follows:
21                         EXAMINATION
22        BY MR. MCGARRY:
23        Q.   Okay. My name is Mark McGarry.    I'm a
24   prosecutor. I'm going to ask you some questions about
25   your involvement with Lisa McPherson during her stay at

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 1    the Church cabana area during the period of November of
 2    '95 and a little bit of December of '95.
 3              But before I do, I'd like to get some general
 4    background information about you.  Laura, what is your
 5    birth date?
 6         A.   X, '58.
 7         Q.   '58?
 8         A.   1958.
 9         Q.   And where do you reside right now?  You're --
10         A.   In X
11         Q.   In X. Is that where you're from
12    originally?
13         A.   No. Ah, well, yes, I was born there, but I was
14    living in a state near to the Mexico City, the name is
15    Michoacan.
16         Q.   Okay. Is -- how do you pronounce your last
17    name?
18         A.   A-r-r-
19         Q.   I know how to spell it --
20         A.   Arrunada.
21         Q.   Is that your given name, or is that a married
22    name?  Is that the name you were born with?
23         A.   Yeah.
24         Q.   Okay. Laura, do you have -- do you have some
25    medical training?

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 1        A.   Yes, I have.
 2        Q.   You do?  What training do you have?
 3        A.   I did five years in the school and then two
 4    years like the internship, and then social service.  Yeah.
 5    So totally it was 7 years.
 6        Q.   7 years?
 7        A.   Yeah.
 8        Q.   Was that -- was that college, or just medical
 9    training, 7 years?
10        A.   Color?
11                  MR. POLLI:   College.  School.
12        BY MR. MCGARRY:
13        Q.   University?   School, university?
14        A.   It's five years university, and then you go and
15    do practice and in the hospital full time, and then is one
16    year more giving service.
17        Q.   Okay.  Where was this university?
18        A.   Morelia in Michoacan.
19                  MR. POLLI:   Sounds like Michigan.   Like
20    University of Michigan.  But it's not, it's Michacon,
21    which is a state next to Mexico City.  M-i-c-h-o-a-c-a-n.
22    Michoacan.
23                  THE WITNESS:   Yeah, Michoacan.
24        BY MR. MCGARRY:
25        Q.   Where was your two year residency?   Was that --

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 1         A.    One was there, also, and the other one was in
 2    Tabasco, another state.
 3         Q.    All right. Now, you were on your way to be a
 4    doctor?   Or are you a doctor? Are you a doctor?
 5         A.    I didn't complete the -- all the cycle, you
 6    know, I didn't did the last test.  How you say,  "The
 7    Board."
 8         Q.    The board exam?
 9         A.    Yeah, I didn't.
10         Q.    The Mexico Board exam?
11         A.    Yeah.
12         Q.    You did not do that?
13         A.    No.
14         Q.    But you completed all of the courses and you
15    graduated?
16         A.    Yeah.
17         Q.    From medical school?
18         A.    Yeah.
19         Q.    Okay. When was this?  When did you complete
20    that program?
21         A.    1985.
22         Q.    Okay. When did you become involved with the
23    Church?
24         A.    1994.
25         Q.    All right. And how did you become involved with

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 1    the Church?
 2         A.   Because I knew Scientologists and I decide to
 3    join this year.
 4         Q.   Was that in Mexico City?
 5         A.   Yeah.
 6         Q.   Okay.   And that's when you joined, in '94?
 7         A.   Yeah.   I knew Scientology before, but when I
 8    join, this year was in 1994.
 9         Q.   And did you join the Church as a staff member
10    or--
11         A.   Yeah.
12         Q.   As a, just as a -- as a staff member?
13         A.   Yeah.
14         Q.   And that's in Mexico City?
15         A.   Well, that was before, in Michoacan.
16         Q.   Okay.
17         A.   And then I came here in October 1994.  I came
18    here to Florida.
19         Q.   And why was that?  Why did you come to Florida,
20    to Clearwater?   Clearwater?
21         A.   Yeah.
22         Q.   Why did you come here?
23         A.   Just because I was told to come here.
24         Q.   Oh, by the Church?
25         A.   Yeah.

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 1         Q.   They needed you here?
 2         A.   Yeah.
 3         Q.   And when you were in Mexico City working for the
 4    Church what did you do?
 5         A.   Before or after?
 6         Q.   In -- when you joined in Mexico, before you came
 7    to Clearwater.
 8         A.   No. Before I was just helping in Michoacan,
 9    helping to bring people to know, to do seminars.
10         Q.   Okay. When you came here in October of '94 to
11    Clearwater --
12         A.   Yeah.
13         Q.   Did you come here as a staff member?
14         A.   Yeah.
15         Q.   Okay. And what did you do for the Church as a
16    staff member?
17         A.   All I did the basical (sic) training.
18         Q.   Basic what?
19         A.   Basic training. You know, that we do some
20    courses.
21         Q.   Mm-hmm?
22         A.   And then after that I started to work in the MLO
23    office.
24         Q.   MLO?
25         A.   Medical Liaison Office.

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 1         Q.   Okay. When did you start with the MW Office?
 2     Do you remember that?
 3         A.   22 November, 1994.
 4         Q.   '94?
 5         A.   Yeah.
 6         Q.   Okay. In November of '94 who was in charge of
 7     the MLO Office at that time?
 8         A.   Judy Colesberry Webber.
 9         Q.   There's another name I haven't heard in a while.
10                 MR. POLLI:   What's the last name?
11                 MR. MCGARRY:   Webber.
12        BY MR. MCGARRY:
13        Q.   So she was your -- do you call her your senior
14    or supervisor?
15        A.   Senior.
16        Q.   Senior? What duties did you do in the MLO
17    Office? What would you -- what would be your typical day
18    back, now, back in the very beginning in November of '94?
19        A.   Okay. So file, and give assist.
20        Q.   Assist?
21        A.   Yeah.
22        Q,   Who'd you assist?  Judy?
23        A.   Yeah. Well, I assist Judy.  Judy was the person
24    who was telling me what to do.
25        Q.   Mm-hmm?

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 1          A.   But we have in Scientology some kind of assist
 2     that we give to the people who is sick.   So I was training
 3     to do that.
 4          Q.   Okay.
 5          A.   That was in the beginning. And also,  I was
 6     helping her to keep clean the space where the people with
 7     flu is isolated.
 8                   MR. ANDREWS:   Flu?
 9                   THE WITNESS:   Flu.
10         BY MR. MCGARRY:
11         Q.   Oh, okay.  I got you, flu.
12         A.   Is isolated.
13         Q.   Did your duties in the MLO Office change from
14    '94 to '95?
15         A.   Yes.
16         Q.   What responsibilities did you grow to or come to
17    do?
18         A.   I was helping more the manager.   They change the
19    manager in the office.
20         Q.   Manager?
21         A.   Yeah.
22         Q.   And that would have been Susan?
23         A.   Yeah.
24         Q.   Schnurrenberger?
25         A.   Susan Schnurrenburger.  So I was helping also to

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 1    do some admin. cycle, you know like make papers, do
 2    report, things like that.  Looking the people when is come
 3    in, send in the people to the Public MLO, or Staff MLO.
 4        Q.    Okay.
 5        A.    Like the receptionist.
 6        Q.    Oh, I got you.  So was Susan Schnurrenberger,
 7    did she take over for Judy Colesberry Webber?
 8        A.    Yeah.
 9        Q.    She did?  Did you know Lisa McPherson?
10        A.    I knew her.
11        Q.    Did you know her prior to her illness?
12        A.    No.
13        Q.    You did not?
14        A.    No.
15        Q.    You've never seen her before?
16        A.    No.
17        Q.    Before that?   Oh, okay. When did you first
18    learn that Lisa was staying in the cabana, that your help
19    was needed?  Do you remember when that was?
20        A.    When it was?   Yeah. It was, um, it was a Friday
21    at night.
22        Q.    We have some calendars, we got a calendar here.
23    We're not trying to trick you, because I know it's a long
24    time ago.  And that's of 1995 there.   And Thanksgiving is
25    right there where your finger is.

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 1        A.   24.  Friday, 24.
 2        Q.   Okay.  How did you get into this?  Who
 3    approached you and who asked you, or who requested you to
 4    assist in this situation?
 5        A.   I was called by Lacy Spencer.  And she told me
 6    that the senior C.S. is, case supervisor, at that time, he
 7    request my presence in his office.
 8        Q.   Okay.  And did you go see him?
 9        A.   Yeah.
10        Q.   Was there anybody else there when you arrived?
11        A.   Yeah.
12        Q.   Who?
13        A.   It was Kenia Smythe, Patrizia Strecener, Valerie
14    Demons, Silvia De la Vega, Gabby Sanchez, Lacy.
15        Q.   Okay.
16        A.   That's all, yeah.
17        Q.   All right.  And you all -- did he have a meeting
18    with you at that time?
19        A.   Yeah.
20        Q.   What was the meeting about?
21        A.   About that he was needing our help to take care
22    of Lisa McPherson.
23        Q.   Did he tell you what was wrong with her?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   What was that?  What did he say?

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 1         A.   Well, he said that she was Type Three.
 2         Q.   Which is psychotic break?
 3         A.   Yeah.
 4         Q.   Did he tell you all about the incident that
 5     occurred prior to her going to the church hotel, with the
 6     traffic? You heard about that, the traffic thing, the
 7     accident she had?
 8         A.   No.
 9         Q.   You don't know about that?
10        A.   I know now, but I didn't know, no.
11        Q.   He didn't bring that up?
12        A.   No.
13        Q.   Okay.   Did he -- what further conversations did
14    he have with you in reference to your participation in
15    this?
16        A.   Say--
17        Q.   What did he tell you?
18        A.   What did he tell me?  Yeah, okay.   So that we
19    was going to do watch. We use that word.
20        Q.   Mm-hmm?
21        A.   And just to make sure that she was clean, eating
22    sleeping, or make sure that she was not hurting herself,
23    because she was doing some -- what you call it? Wild
24    thing, things, so --
25        Q.   Mm—hmm?

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 1         A.   And don't speak with her because that could
 2     contribute to make more confused, the mind.  And don't use
 3     like strong light, you know, just keep her safe.
 4         Q.   Okay.  Did Mr. Kartuzinski, did he put together
 5     a schedule for girls to keep?  Do you know if he did that?
 6         A.   I don't know if he did.   I think that the one
 7     who did the schedule was Gabby Sanchez.
 8         Q.   Gabby, yeah?
 9         A.   And then they put like two girls in each.
10        Q.   Two girls in each schedule?
11        A.   Yeah.
12        Q.   Did you get scheduled in like that, or was
13    your -- was your participation different than those other
14    girls? Were you the same as they in the watch?
15        A.   The same.
16        Q.   The same?
17        A.   Yeah.
18        Q.   And when did your first watch occur?   And you
19    can look, use that.
20        A.   Yeah, it was Saturday morning.
21        Q.   Okay.  That would be the 25th   of November of --
22        A.   25.
23        Q.   Of November of 1995.    And was Saturday, the 25th
24    the first time you saw Lisa?
25        A.   The first time, no.    I saw her before a little

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 1    bit.
 2        Q.   Okay. When was that?
 3        A.   It was, um, nineteen, I think.
 4        Q.   Okay. And what was that all about?  That was
 5    before you met with Kartuzinski?
 6        A.   Yeah, that was before.
 7        Q.   And what was that meeting about?
 8        A.   I just went to bring Emma something to the room.
 9        Q.   Okay. Do you know what that something was?
10        A.   I think that it was some clothes. Clothes.
11        Q.   Clothes?
12        A.   Yeah.
13        Q.   Did you see Lisa on that day, the 19th?
14        A.   Yeah, I saw her sleeping in the -- on the, her
15    bed.
16        Q.   Okay. You didn't speak to her?
17        A.   No.
18        Q.   Okay. We're going to move back to the 25th.
19        A.   Mm-hmm.
20        Q.   What time did you start that watch?
21        A.   It was around nine a.m.
22        Q.   In the morning?
23        A.   In the morning.
24        Q.   And who was assigned to the watch with you?
25        A.   Silvia De La Vega.

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 1          Q.  Silvia?
 2          A.  Yeah.
 3          Q.  And, excuse me, the -- can you describe Lisa
 4    that first time you saw her?  How she looked and what she
 5    was doing?
 6          A.  Well, she was with the a lot of physical motion
 7    and she went to make piss (sic) how you say, she went to
 8    the bathroom, and she drink her pee, and then --
 9          Q.  She drank, did you guys follow that?  What was
10    it?   I missed it.
11                   THE ANDREWS:  She urinated then drank it.
12          BY MR. MCGARRY:
13          Q.  She urinated then drank it?
14          A.  Yeah.
15          Q.  Wow.
16          A.  Then she flushed the toilet.  Then she went to
17    take a shower with her clothes and shoes, and then she
18    started to play with the -- how say the --
19                   MR. POLLI: Spicots.
20                   THE WITNESS:  Yeah, exactly.  So like she
21    was singing and dancing, and doing things, and stand up
22    and down.  So then we complete the shower.  We took off
23    her clothes, and we helped her to take a shower.  And then
24    we dry her and we put her clothes. And then we went to
25    the room and we give her food, but she was too much in

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 1    motion, you know, always talking, and yelling or louding
 2    (sic) or singing and dancing and --
 3        BY MR. MCGARRY:
 4        Q.   Okay. And that is on the 25th?
 5        A.   Yeah.
 6        Q.   And on the 25th did you feel like she was, other
 7    than being -- having a psychotic -- other than being Type
 8    Three, did you feel like on the 25th that she had a
 9    physical problem wrong with her? I mean, something wrong
10    with her from here down? (Indicating)
11        A.   (Shakes head.)  No.
12        Q.   No? Okay.    Was she was she still eating regular
13    food or was she--
14        A.   Regular food.
15        Q.   Regular food at that time?
16        A.   Yeah.
17        Q.   And that's potatoes, and some broccoli.  What
18    else did she have? Chicken maybe?
19        A.   Yeah.
20        Q.   All right.   So how long did that shift last?
21    You started at nine o'clock in the morning and you went
22    until how long?
23        A.   Until five.
24        Q.   Until five?
25        A.   Yeah.

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 1         Q.  And Silvia stayed on?
 2         A.  Yeah.
 3         Q.  When you left at five o'clock was Lisa doing the
 4    same thing, type of thing or was she sleeping, or do you
 5    know?
 6         A.  Same.
 7         Q.  Same type of thing?
 8         A.  Same thing.
 9         Q.  When was the next time that you saw Lisa?
10         A.  Next day, 26.
11         Q.  All right.  And what time was that did you
12    remember?
13         A.  It was at 8:00 a.m.
14         Q.  8:00 in the morning?
15         A.  Yeah.
16         Q.  And how did she look then?
17         A.  Same.
18         Q.  Okay.   Same type of behavior?
19         A.  Yeah.
20         Q.  And did she still have some strength?  Was she
21    still moving on her own?  Was she still talking, walking
22    and talking?
23         A.  Yeah, a lot.
24         Q.  A lot?
25         A.  Yeah.

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 1         Q.   How about her food intake?  Was she still eating
 2    and drinking?
 3         A.   Yeah.   Yeah, she was like eating, and then
 4    putting out the food, then eating with her hands, and
 5    always doing something not normal, you know.  If you're
 6    going to eat, well you eat, and that's it.
 7         Q.   Right.   Okay. Did you ever see her -- do you
 8    know what vomit means?  Throw up?
 9         A.   Yeah.
10         Q.   Did she do that?
11         A.   No.
12         Q.   Just spit food out?  She didn't regurgitate it
13    from the stomach?
14         A.   No.
15         Q.   During, so far, the contact that you had with
16    Lisa, did she ever express any desire to leave the room?
17         A.   No.
18         Q.   Did she ever try to leave the room?
19         A.   Yeah, she did.
20         Q.   And when was that?
21         A.   I think it was not in these two days, it was
22    around next Saturday.
23         Q.   Okay.   And what did she do?
24         A.   Well, she was yelling at some -- some guys in
25    her mind, and she was trying to grab them.  She was trying

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 1    to go through the window or, you know, to hit them or to
 2    go, and -- I don't know.   Like she was with something,
 3    like when you're watching that picture, a movie, and
 4    you're talking with the guys in the movie and trying to do
 5    something with that guy.
 6          Q.   Well, can you describe this window? Could she
 7    have gotten out of the window if you wouldn't have stopped
 8    her?  Was the window open or was there a screen or --
 9          A.   No, no. It was a -- is like this is the room,
10    it was the door, and that was a window, but was a --
11                   MR. POLLI:   Curtain?
12                   THE WITNESS:  Curtina, yeah.  Like she was
13    in front,  she was talking with somebody in the window.
14    And then she went to try to do something, and so she went
15    then -- and then she took the door and she was trying to
16    go outside and kill these guys.  So I stopped her.
17
18          BY MR. MCGARRY:
19          Q.   Okay. All right.  That's -- we'll back up to
20    back to where we were on the 26th this still.  Is there is
21    there any time during these two days, on the 25th and the
22    26th, that Janice Johnson stopped by to visit and look at
23    Lisa?
24          A.   I don't know.  She did not when I was there.
25          Q.   Okay. You know Janice Johnson, don't you?


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 1              A.     I do I know Janice, yeah.
 2              Q.     How would you describe her?        Was she in the MLO
 3      at the time with you, Janice?
 4              A.     Yeah.     Yeah.     Yes.
 5              Q.     What was her position at that time?
 6              A.     Her position?
 7              Q.     Was it the same as yours or different?
 8              A.     No, she was a Staff MLO.
 9              Q.     Staff?
10              A.     Staff MLO.
11              Q.     Okay.     I'm not sure I understand what you were.
12      Weren't you staff MLO?
13              A.     No.    I was the assistant manager.
14              Q.     Oh, okay.  Okay.    I gotcha.    It's all kind of
15      new here for me.    So you didn't see Janice the 25th or the
16      26th?
17              A.     In Lisa room, not.           In the MLO Office, yes.
18              Q.     Oh, okay.        Did you speak with Janice at that
19      time?     I know you don't talk in front of Lisa, right?
20              A.     Yeah.
21              Q.     Okay.     But did you speak with Janice in the MLO
22      Office about what was going on with Lisa?
23              A.     Yeah.
24              Q.     You did?
25              A.     Yeah.

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 1         Q.   What was that conversation about?
 2         A.   Well, most of the time she was asking me, or I
 3    was telling her how she was doing.   If she was sleeping.
 4    How much she was eating, or drinking.  How she was doing.
 5         Q.   Mm-hmm?
 6         A.   You know.
 7         Q.   Okay.  And you would report to her and tell her?
 8         A.   Yeah.
 9         Q.   Okay.  After the 25th, what time did that shift
10   end?   You started -- I forget when you told me you started
11   on the 26th?
12                 MR. ANDREWS:   8:00 a.m.
13        BY MR. MCGARRY:
14        Q.   8:00 a.m.  When did you finish that shift, do
15   you remember?
16        A.   It was around 6.
17        Q.   Of -- 6 p.m.?
18        A.   Yeah.
19        Q.   What was Lisa doing after you left at 6:00 p.m?
20   more of the same?  Or was she sleeping, or was she --
21        A.   No, no, no.  The same.
22        Q.   The same activity?
23        A.   Yeah.
24        Q.   Okay.  Now, after the 26th did you have another
25   watch that you participated in?

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 1         A.   Yeah.  On the Saturday, 2 of December.
 2         Q.   Okay.  And that was the day that she had this
 3    thing with the window, right?
 4         A.   Yeah.
 5         Q.   What time did you start on that day?
 6         A.   What time?  I think it was at 3:00, 3:00 p.m.
 7         Q.   All right.  And how was Lisa then, when you saw
 8    her at 3:00 p.m. on the 2nd,  what was she doing?  Can you
 9    describe her?
10         A.   She was laying on the bed.
11         Q.   Okay.
12         A.   And she was resting.
13         Q.   She was resting?
14         A.   Yeah.
15         Q.   When you'd see her on the 2nd  was Silvia with
16    you in the room on that day?
17         A.   No.
18         Q.   She wasn't?
19         A.   No.
20         Q.   Okay.  Was Rita?
21         A.   Yeah.
22         Q.   Rita was?
23         A.   Yeah.
24         Q.   Okay.  When you came in at 3:00 p.m. did Lisa
25    recognize you?  Or did she acknowledge you being there?

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 1    Or did she ignore you?  Or was she just staring up at the
 2    ceiling?
 3         A.   No.  Ignoring me.
 4         Q.   Ignoring you?
 5         A.   Yeah.
 6         Q.   Was she awake?
 7         A.   When I just went in, no, she was a sleeping.
 8         Q.   Okay.
 9         A.   Still talking.
10        Q.   Talking?
11        A.   Yeah, but with the eyes closed.
12        Q.   All right.  Did you get a report as to whether
13   or not she'd been eating or drinking anything at that
14   time?
15        A.   Reporting?  I was not writing reports.
16                  MR. POLLI:  No, no. Listen to the
17   question.
18        BY MR. MCGARRY:
19        Q.   Did anybody else tell you when you arrived on
20   the 2nd whether she'd been eating or drinking at that
21   time?
22        A.   No.
23        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall whether, on the 2nd, after
24   you got there, did she eat or drink any of the time that
25   you were there?

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 1         A.  The girls -- well, the point is that Rita, when
 2    I went in Rita went to bring her food, and she gave her
 3    food.
 4         Q.  Okay.
 5         A.  Yeah.
 6         Q.  Did she eat it?
 7         A.  Yeah.  But not by herself.   Rita was giving her
 8    the food.
 9         Q.  Feeding it to her?
10         A.  Yeah.
11         Q.  What kind of food was that?
12         A.  It was banana and protein dust (sic).
13         Q.  Protein, protein -- make a shake or --
14                  MR. POLLI:  Protein dust.   The powder.
15         BY MR. MCGARRY:
16         Q.  Oh, I get it.
17         A.  Yeah, powder.  Like a baby.
18         Q.  Right.
19         A.  Yeah.
20         Q.  All right.  Did she spend any time on the floor
21    that you can recall?
22         A.  Well, yes.
24             Yeah.
25         Q.  Was that on the 2nd?

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 1             A.     On the 2nd?      Yeah, she was.        Yeah.
 2             Q.     December 2nd, on that Saturday?
 3             A.     Yeah.
 4             Q.     Can you describe all that.            Why would -- what
 5      was she doing?       Tell me what she did while you were there
 6      on the Saturday.
 7             A.     Well, that Saturday         she was just lay down, and
 8      like, ah, play with the legs up, doing this on the --
 9      against the wall with her legs, sometimes with a head.
10      She was doing always this (indicating) with her hands,
11      like when you are blind, and you touch everything so you
12      can move.      And then she was stopping, and then doing
13      again.     And then on the floor in a -- just rehilando --
14      this with her body.
15                           MR. POLLI:      Spinning?
16                           THE WITNESS:       Spinning.
17             BY MR. MCGARRY:
18             Q.     On the floor?
19             A.     On the floor, yeah.
20             Q.     Okay.    How long were you there on that Saturday?
21      From three in the afternoon until when?
22             A.     Until one,
23             Q.     One o'clock in the morning?
24             A.     Yeah.
25             Q.     Of the following day?

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 1         A.   Yeah, five minutes before. Yeah.
 2         Q.   And during that period of time did Lisa ever try
 3    to leave, other than the time with the window?  Did she
 4    ever ask you if she could go out the door, or leave, leave
 5    the room?
 6         A.   She was not able to talk with you at all.
 7         Q.   She'd just talk to herself or whatever?
 8         A.   Yeah.
 9         Q.   Nothing made any sense?
10        A.   No.
11        Q.   All right.  Did she have -- and I can ask these
12   questions a little more specifically of you, because you
13   have more medical training than some of the other girls
14   I've talked to.  Were you concerned about, in looking at
15   her now, now you've been with her now for four or five
16   days it looks like, were you becoming concerned about her
17   health, not just her mind at this point?   Did she seem to
18   be healthy or did she seem to be getting unhealthy, or
19   need medical assistance?
20        A.   She was looking a little bit more skinny, but
21   not sick.
22        Q.   Okay.  Well, can you describe her color and her,
23   her--
24        A.   In that date it was same color.
25        Q.   All right.  Her eyes?  Her mouth?

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 1        A.   No.  When I went in she was okay.  It was not --
 2    I saw her with, um, more pale, and with these like on
 3    Monday, the 4th.
 4                  MR. STROPE: December fourth.
 5        BY MR. MCGARRY:
 6        Q.   Okay.  We're going to get to that day here.
 7        A.   But not on Saturday.
 8        Q.   Okay.  During any of your times spent with Lisa
 9    did you ever give her any prescription medicine?  You know
10    the word "prescription"?
11        A.   Yes.
12        Q.   Was that ever given to her, prescription
13    medicine?
14        A.   I give her chlorhydrate.
15        Q.   You gave her chlorhydrate?
16        A.   Yeah.
17        Q.   And how did you know to give her that?
18        A.   Janice told me.
19        Q.   Janice told you?
20        A.   Yeah.
21        Q.   Do you remember when that was?
22        A.   It was on Saturday.  Day.
23        Q.   The 2nd?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   All right.  And what is chlorhydrate for?  Do

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 1    you know? What was that?
 2        A.    Helps her to sleep.
 3        Q.    Sleep?
 4        A.    Yeah. Because she was out -- well, that's what
 5    she told me. She was too much in motion, not resting.
 6        Q.    Too much in motion?
 7        A.    Yeah. You know, when -- if you got one day
 8    always doing something, then the next day also, and you're
 9    not resting, so for sure your body has to get tired or,
10    you know.
11        Q.    Right. All right.   Were you ever present
12    when -- or did you ever personally give Lisa a shot? An
13    injection?
14        A.    No.
15        Q.    Did you know did Janice do that? Did Janice
16    give her a shot?
17        A.    No.
18        Q.    You don't know?  Do you know? Or do you not
19    know.
20        A.    I know now, but --
21        Q.    Oh, you know now?
22        A.    But didn't then.
23        Q.    All right.
24        A.    Yeah.
25        Q.    Do you know where the prescription for the

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 1    chiorhydrate came from?
 2        A.    Yes.
 3        Q.    Who wrote that prescription?
 4        A.    The Dr. Minkoff.
 5        Q.    Minkoff? Do you know how that was obtained?
 6        A.    No.
 7        Q.    You don't?  Okay.  Okay.   That end Saturday,
 8    the 2nd.  And the next time you come is -- when is the
 9    next time you see Lisa?
10        A.    Next day.
11        Q.    That would be the 3rd?
12        A.    Yes.
13        Q.    Okay. And tell me about the 3rd.  When did you
14    start that day?
15        A.    Same time.
16        Q.    Three in the afternoon?
17        A.    Yeah.
18        Q.    Okay. And were you there with Rita?
19        A.    Yeah.
20        Q.    Okay. and tell me about what Lisa looked like at
21    3:00 p.m. on the 3rd.
22        A.    Um, she was looking -- I don't remember exactly
23    what she was doing at that time, but generally she was
24    looking less strong.
25        Q.    Less -- she was -- could she sit up? Could she

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 1    move around?  Was she moving her hand or her legs?
 2        A.    Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but is like in the
 3    beginning I was a standing, stand up in front of her and
 4    then the kind of motion that she had it was really strong.
 5    You know, she go up on her leg, just in front of you, up
 6    to you, you know, she was taller, above me.  But that day
 7    she was doing -- still doing things and walking around,
 8    and talking, but she was going to take a seat on the floor
 9    and on the matt (sic) or the bed most frequently about
10    before.  And then at night she slept around five hours.
11        Q.    That night she slept five hours?
12        A.    Yeah.
13        Q.    How late did you stay on that day?
14        A.    Until one.
15        Q.    One o'clock?
16        A.    Right.
17        Q.    Did she eat or drink anything on the 3rd while
18    you were there?
19        A.    We were -- was giving her with the syringe, a
20    big syringe, a her ringer (sic) how you say?
21                   MR. POLLI:  Syringe without the needle.
22    You know, a big, wide syringe thing.
23                   MR. ANDREWS: like a turkey baster.
24                   MR. POLLI:  With protein shake, squirt it
25    in her mouth.

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 1        BY MR. MCGARRY:
 2        Q.     Oh, really? Was that working?
 3        A.     Yeah.
 4        Q.     She would eat?
 5        A.     Yeah.
 6        Q.     She'd swallow it?
 7        A.     Yeah.
 8        Q.     Anything else that she did that -- could you
 9    tell that through -- I know you got some medical training.
10    Could you tell whether or not she appeared to be
11    dehydrated?   Do you know the word "dehydrated"?
12        A.     Yeah. Tell me again the question please?
13        Q.     Could you tell if she was dehydrated?
14        A.     No, she was not, because I was giving her
15    liquids.   I was giving her calma (sic) and water and nice
16    protein shakes,  and she was making urina -- urine so she
17    losing that, because I was also cleaning her.
18        Q.     Did she ever use the toilet or was she --
19        A.     Just once.
20        Q.     Everything else was in the bed or on the floor
21    or on her clothes?
22        A.     (Nods head.) Yes.
23        Q.     Okay. Anything else on the 3rd, that you can
24    remember?
25        A.     Oh, yes.  At night she was on the floor, um, she

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 1    was fucking with somebody.
 2         Q.   Yeah? Having sex with somebody?
 3         A.   Yeah. And kissing the floor and --
 4         Q.   An imaginary person?
 5         A.   (Nods head.)
 6         Q.   Wow.
 7                  MR. POLLI:  That's how they think she got
 8    those bruises on her.
 9         BY MR. MCGARRY:
10         Q.   On her hips? Okay.  That was late at night.
11         A.   Later. Well, she started around ten, because it
12    was a long time that she was doing that, and masturbating.
13         Q.   Masturbating, too?
14         A.   Yeah.
15         Q.   Did -- Okay. During this period of time did you
16    ever -- did you have to ever restrain her to -- from
17    hurting herself?
18         A.   Restraining her to?
19         Q.   From hurting herself or beating the walls?
20         A.   No. No.
21         Q.   Okay. Now, we're on to when is the next time
22    you see her after the 3rd?
23         A.   Next day.
24         Q.   The 4th?
25         A.   Yeah.

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 1         Q.   And what day -- what time was that, Laura?
 2         A.   It was at -- let me see.    I think that was at
 3   night.   Okay. It was like this.   I was on the third in
 4   the afternoon, at night.  And I went to eat and I came
 5   back, I think, um, around one.   I just went out to eat and
 6   then I went back.  And I was all night until 8:00 a.m. And
 7   then I went to sleep and I went back in the afternoon.
 8         Q.   On the 4th?
 9         A.   Yeah, on the 4th. I think.  I'm not sure, but I
10   remember that I was one night with her.
11         Q.   All right.
12         A.   On the 3rd.
13         Q.   Well, on the 3rd you're there from 3:00 p.m.
14   until 1:00 a.m.
15         A.   Yeah. I think that I went in before 1:00 a.m.
16   Just eat and --
17         Q.   Then came back?
18         A.   Yeah.
19         Q.   And spent the rest of that night?
20         A.   Yeah.
21         Q.   And then came back the 4th around in the
22   afternoon
23         A.   Yeah, in the afternoon.  Yeah.
24         Q.   All right. Who was there on the 4th with you?
25         A.   Heather.

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 1        Q.   Heather was?
 2        A.   Yup.
 3        Q.   Is Heather -- you don't -- do you remember her
 4    name? Do you know if she's here in Clearwater still?
 5        A.   I think that it is.
 6        Q.   So -- okay.  So the 4th in the afternoon, can
 7    you describe to me what Lisa looked like then?
 8        A.   She was looking more skinny, but she was still
 9    with less activity, but still -- walking still, and
10    talking. And that day she did the same, like a fucking
11    with this person on the floor. And, you know, then she
12    went on the bed resting for a while.  But resting, she was
13    not sleeping.
14             She was still lay down, but always, um, she was
15    always taking off her clothes and clobber (sic) beds and
16    playing or doing something. And sometimes she was with
17    less activity, but still talking. And then that was that
18    day I think that I give her some Valerian root, then she
19    sleep for a little while.
20        Q.   Okay.
21        A.   And that was for not be -- nothing change about
22    the day before.
23        Q.   Heather was with you on that day?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   Did she drink anything that day?

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 1         A.   Yeah.
 2         Q.   Or eat anything else besides the Valer --
 3         A.   Just protein shakes, just liquids.
 4         Q.   And did you give her the protein shakes the same
 5    way, with the syringe?
 6         A.   Yeah. Yeah.
 7         Q.   The big -- the large syringe?
 8         A.   Yeah.
 9         Q.   How late did you stay there on the 4th?
10         A.   How late?
11         Q.   Yeah.
12         A.   No, I left in the morning.
13         Q.   Early morning hours? That would be the 5th?
14         A.   Yeah. I left at 8:00 in the morning, then I
15    went back in the afternoon at five on the 5th.
16         Q.   On the Fifth?
17         A.   Yeah.
18         Q.   Okay. So you left at 8:00 in the morning on the
19    5th?
20         A.   Yeah.
21         Q.   And then you came back at five?
22         A.   Yeah.
23         Q.   All right. Okay.   Five o'clock on the 5th?
24         A.   Yeah.
25         Q.   Can you describe Lisa now?

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 1         A.  Okay. So when I went in Heather was giving her
 2   a shower on the tub.
 3         Q.  On the tub?
 4         A.  Yeah. And she called me to help her, to help
 5   Heather to give her a shower. So I went and she was
 6   looking pale, and her body was lazy.  How would say "not
 7   strong"?
 8                 MR. POLLI:  Limp?
 9                 THE WITNESS:  Limp.   And then when we was
10   giving her a shower she shit, she go shot (sic) in the
11   there.
12                 MR. POLLI:  She had diarrhea?
13                 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.   So she had relaxed
14   the -- "anal" I say.  How you say?
15                 MR. POLLI:  Anus?  Anus.
16         BY MR. MCGARRY:
17         Q.  Anus?
18         A.  Yeah, anus.  That's when I saw her.  And we
19   complete, we dry her and we put some clothes, and we put
20   on the bed.  And I check her pulse and respiration and she
21   was some more quiet.
22         Q.  Right.
23         A.  So I went to tell Janice that she was not
24   looking good.
25         Q.  Right.

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 1         A.  You know, like she was a -- like darkness around
 2    her eyes. And, I mean, I know that when this anus is
 3    relaxed is some neurological -- neurological trouble.
 4         Q.  Neurological trouble?
 5         A.  Yeah.  In the -- I mean, has to be caused for
 6    something. So I went to tell Janice that.  And she told
 7    me okay. Then I went back to the room and yeah, when I
 8    went back.
 9         Q.  Who was in the room with you then?  Rita and
10    Heath --?
11         A.  No, Heather.
12         Q.  Just Heather?
13         A.  No, just Heather.
14         Q.  All right.
15         A.  And then --
16         Q.  And what happened then?  This is five o'clock or
17    a little bit later than five, or somewhere around there?
18         A.  Yeah.  When I went out it was around 6.  And
19    then Janice came around 7.
20         Q.  7 o'clock?
21         A.  Yeah.
22         Q.  And was Lisa in bed at that time?
23         A.  Yeah.
25         A.  We dress her, put her pants on her.

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 1                   MR. ANDREWS:  Did you get that?
 2                   THE WITNESS:  Yeah. And shoes and we took
 3     her out to the van, Janice van.
 4          BY MR. MCGARRY:
 5          Q.  Is this when Paul showed up?   Paul Greenwood?
 6          A.  Yeah.  Yeah.
 7          Q.  And you drove her from there up to the hospital?
 8          A.  To the hospital, yeah.
 9          Q.  Did she have to be carried to the van?  Could
10    she walk to the van?
11         A.  No.
12         Q.  So she was carried to the van?
13         A.  Yeah.
14         Q.  So she -- she became all of a sudden very, very
15    weak and lifeless at that point, right?  Sometime around
16    between five and six she became very sick, very lifeless?
17         A.  Weak.  Very weak, yeah.
18         Q.  All right.  Did you check her pulse again?  Or
19    respiration?
20         A.  Yeah.
21         Q.  You did?
22         A.  I -- yes,  I did.
23         Q.  And do you remember what it was?
24         A.  It was normal range.
25         Q.  In the normal range?

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 1         A.   Yeah.
 2         Q.   Okay.  Who made the arrangements to move, to
 3    move Lisa?  Who was in charge of that?
 4         A.   Janice.
 5         Q.   Janice did?  And she drove the van, correct?
 6         A.   Yes.
 7         Q.   And did she make arrangements on where you were
 8    taking Lisa?
 9         A.   She told me that with Dr. Minkoff.
10         Q.   To Dr. Minkoff?
11         A.   Dr. Minkoff, yeah.
12         Q.   Now, do you know why you went to Dr. Minkoff as
13    opposed to going to a closer hospital?
14         A.   No, I don't.
15         Q.   But that wasn't your decision?
16         A.   No.
17         Q.   All right.  Were you concerned at that point
18    because of her declining strength that maybe you should
19    have gone straight to another hospital, a closer hospital?
20         A.   No, not at all.
21         Q.   Not at all?
22         A.   No.  She was not looking like she was to die.
23         Q.   She wasn't looking like she was going to die?
24         A.   No.
25         Q.   So she was still breathing and still had a

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 1    pulse, but she wasn't --
 2         A.  No.
 3         Q.  But she still had -- you had to hold her up,
 4    correct?
 5         A.  Hold her up.
 6         Q.  She had no strength?
 7         A.  Yeah, yeah.   It's not -- like when you took
 8    something like a -- Is not with any --
 9         Q.  Limp?
10        A.  Yeah, exactly.   No, she still -- she was moving
11   her arms and holding me, and it wasn't like a -- like
12   this, no.
13        Q.  So -- so she was moving her arms a little bit?
14   Could she hold her head up?
15        A.  Yeah.
16        Q.  What point in the trip -- do you know when -- do
17   you know when she died?  Do you know when and where she
18   had her last breath?  Do you know when that was?
19        A.  No.
20        Q.  You don't know when that was?
21        A.  No, because I was -- she was next to me in the
22   car, and I was checking her pulse and her breathe, and she
23   was still --
24        Q.  She was still alive?
25        A.  Yeah.

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 1        Q.   All the way to the hospital?
 2        A.   Yeah.
 3        Q.   And she's between you and --
 4        A.   Paul.
 5        Q.   Paul?  Did you write some reports of your
 6    activities, or keep a log, ah, write reports during her
 7    stay at the cabana?
 8        A.   No.
 9        Q.   You didn't write reports?
10        A.   No.
11        Q.   How come you didn't write reports?
12        A.   Because I am not a good English writer.
13        Q.   Okay. That's a fair answer.  Did anybody else
14    write reports that was with you?
15        A.   Yeah. Rita, Heather and Janice.
16        Q.   They wrote reports?
17        A.   Yeah.
18        Q.   Did -- do you know who Marcus Quirino is?
19        A.   Yes.
20        Q.   Who is he? What is his position in the Church?
21        A.   Well, I don't know right now, but he was the --
22    the deputy chief officer.
23        Q.   Did you get that part?
24                 MR. STROPE: Deputy chief.
25        BY MR. MCGARRY:

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 1         Q.  Did you see him after this all happened, after
 2    Lisa died?
 3         A.  Yeah.
 4         Q.  Were you with all the other people that he had a
 5    meeting? And you all --
 6         A.  Yes.
 7         Q.  -- told him what happened?
 8         A.  Yes.
 9         Q.  What did he say to you?
10         A.  Nothing.  He just wanted to know what everybody
11    saw.  Yeah.
12         Q.  And did -- you didn't write a report then,
13    either, for the same reasoning?
14         A.  Yeah.
15         Q.  Okay.  Who was the security guard that was
16    outside the door when you were at the cabana with Lisa?
17    Do you remember who he was?
18         A.  It was some Georgia (phonetic) and the other guy
19    was Alfonso Barsenas.
20         Q.  Did you ever meet with Mr. Kartuzinski after
21    that first time? Did you ever talk to him?
22         A.  No.
23         Q.  No?
24         A.  Not until the  -- after she died.
25         Q.  Then you talked to him then?

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 1         A.  Not a lot.   Not -- well, we was together in a
 2    room, but didn't talk.
 3         Q.  Was it a meeting he called you to talk about the
 4    cycle?
 5         A.  No.  She was waiting to be interviewed by the
 6    police.
 7         Q.  Oh, okay.   Did you talk to Lacy Spencer after
 8    this?
 9         A.  No.
10        Q.  Did Lacy -- or do you know who A. J. Strecker
11   is?
12        A.  Yes.
13        Q.  Did she ever go in and stop in and see Lisa?
14        A.  No.
15        Q.  That you know of?   You don't know?
16        A.  No, I don't know.   When I was there, no.
17        Q.  She never did?
18        A.  No.
19        Q.  Did Mr. Kartuzinski ever stop in to see her?
20        A.  No.  When I was there, no.
21        Q.  When you were there, no. And how many times do
22   you think Janice stopped in to see her while you were
23   there?
24        A.  When I was there, I think twice.
25                 MR. MCGARRY:   Okay.  Laura, I always miss

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 1    questions, and they might have some questions for you,
 2    so--
 3                  MR. POLLI:  I don't want to -- I want to go
 4    off the record for a second.
 5              (A discussion was had off the record.)
 6                  MR. MCGARRY:  Let's go back and cover those
 7    questions and straighten it out.
 8         BY MR. MCGARRY:
 9         Q.   On the -- back to the previous question he asked
10    you about her moving her arms or being able to make any
11    kind of voluntary movements.
12         A.   Yeah.
13         Q.   She did some of that in the cabana?
14         A.   Yes.
15         Q.   Before you left?
16         A.   Yes.
17         Q.   But you still had to carry her to the van?
18         A.   Yes.
19         Q.   Okay.  She couldn't walk on her own?
20         A.   We didn't try.
21         Q.   Okay.  I mean, if you were to let her go, would
22    she fall to the ground if you were to stand back and let
23    her go?  Would she drop to the ground?
24         A.   I don't know because we didn't try.
25         Q.   But you, three of you picked her all the way up

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 1    off the ground and carried her.  You -- she didn't even
 2    walk?  She was lifted up off the ground and carried to the
 3    van, correct?
 4                   Now, to straighten up, ah, we -- you
 5    already answered about movement.  In the van, once she was
 6    placed in the van, did she ever do anything on her own
 7    like mover her arms, legs, hit anything?
 8         A.   Hold my hand, just that and --
 9         Q.   That's it?
10         A.   That's it.
11         Q.   So her head was on your shoulder?
12         A.   Yes.
13         Q.   And during that period of time did you feel a
14    pulse?  Or did you check her breath, see if she was
15    breathing?
16         A.   I was checking her pulse and I was -- also it
17    was put my hand here, and I was feeling something.  But
18    about when she stopped to breath, I'm not sure.
19         Q.   You don't know when her last breath was?
20         A.   I don't know.
21         Q.   Was she breathing in an unusual pattern?  Could
22    you tell?  Was it high -- no?
23         A.   No.  No, slow.
24         Q.   Very slow?
25         A.   Yeah.

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 1         Q.  Is that it, the errors you were referring to?
 2                  MR. POLLI:   Yes.  Thank you.
 3                  MR. MCGARRY:  Laura, the detectives here
 4    would like to ask you some questions, because I always
 5    forget to ask all the questions.  So unless you want to
 6    take a break for water or go to the bathroom, or something
 7    we can continue on and you're still understand oath and
 8    this shouldn't be too much longer.
 9                           EXAMINATION
10        BY MR. ANDREWS:
11        Q.  Just quick.   When you came in '94, Judy
12   Colesberry Webber, what was her title there at the MLO?
13        A.  What was she?   Manager.
14        Q.  Office Manager?
15        A.  Yeah.
16        Q.  Okay.  Then she was replaced by Susan
17   Schnurrenburger, S-c-h-n-u-r-r-e-n-b-u-r-g-e-r.  She was
18   relieved (sic) by her.   What happened to Judy Colesberry
19   Webber what -- where did she go?
20        A.  She went to be the deputy staff MLO.
21        Q.  Okay.  Deputy Staff MLO?
22        A.  Yeah.
23        Q.  At that same time would that place Janice
24   Johnson as staff MLO at that same time?
25        A.  I think was.    I think that was a little bit

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 1    before.
 2        Q.   A little bit before she went down to the deputy?
 3        A.   Yeah.
 4        Q.   Janice Johnson comes into the MLO office and she
 5    becomes the MLO Staff?
 6        A.   Staff MLO, yeah.
 7        Q.   Which at that time would have made her
 8    Colesberry Webber's senior?
 9        A.   Yes.
10        Q.   Now, my understanding is Emma Scammahorn
11    (phonetic) she was a Public MLO?
12        A.   Yes.
13        Q.   Now, would she also answer to Janice Johnson or
14    would Janice Johnson be her senior or not?
15        A.   No.
16        Q.   They would be equals?
17        A.   Yeah.
18        Q.   All right.  Um, back to the day I think it was
19    the 2nd of -- Saturday, December 2nd when she was talking
20    to someone outside the room at the cabanas?
21        A.   Yes.
22        Q.   The security guards still there?  Is security
23    still there?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   Would you let her go out of the room at that

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 1    time when she went to the door?
 2         A.  No.
 3         Q.  No?  You grab her and bring her back in?
 4         A.  Yeah.
 5         Q.  Okay.  Do you know when they pulled security
 6    from the -- my understanding is from talking to other
 7    people, that security guards finally left before -- while
 8    Lisa was still there. Do you remember when they left, the
 9    security guards outside the door?
10         A.  No.
11         Q.  Okay.  What time when -- after Lisa's death,
12    which was the 5th of December of 1995, when did you leave
13    Clearwater?
14         A.  I leave Clearwater in the beginning of March
15    1996.
16         Q.  Okay.  Now, after Lisa died and everybody were
17    told, I guess everybody, what had happened or did there
18    reports or whatever they do?
19         A.  Mm-hmm.
20         Q.  A whole bunch of people ended up not having the
21    jobs that they had before. Okay?   Or that -- the
22    hats they didn't have. Janice Johnson was no longer
23    MLO, Allen or Alain Kartuzinski was no longer the senior
24    case supervisor. Allen Baxter was no longer the chief of
25    security um, what happened or why? Why was all these --

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 1    what brought all those moves on?    Why did that happen?
 2        A.   I really don't know.
 3        Q.   Okay.     Do you have a guess at what happened?
 4    mean, you're -- you're a church member, so you know the
 5    church policies.   Do you have a guess of what happened?
 6        A.   Well,    I guess that I know. I mean, for they
 7    miss, sure, they miss something, you know.
 8        Q.   Something like a committee of evidence had found
 9    that somebody didn't do something right?
10        A.   Yeah.
11        Q.   And they got demoted?
12        A.   Yeah.
13        Q.   When you took care of Lisa did you feel, even
14    though -- that you were very close to being a doctor, did
15    you feel that a certain person was responsible for Lisa's
16    medical care?
17        A.   Janice was.
18        Q.   Janice Johnson?
19        A.   Yeah.
20        Q.   Were you aware at the time of her
21    qualifications?     I mean, had you talked to her?
22    Apparently both of you, with all that training, you would
23    have a lot in common to talk about?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   Were you aware she was an M.D. in another state

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 1    at the time?   Or were you aware of her qualifications?
 2        A.   Yeah, that's what she told me.
 3        Q.   Okay.   Did she act that way?
 4        A.   She act?
 5        Q.   You know, if you -- you would be able to watch
 6    somebody work and I would be able to watch another
 7    policeman working in my field and know whether or not I
 8    thought he knew his job.   When Janice was in your company
 9    did it look to you like she knew her job?
10        A.   Yeah.
11        Q.   Okay.   Now, only thing I wanted cover was you
12    left Lisa at eight o'clock in the morning on the 5th?
13        A.   Yeah.
14        Q.   Now, at 5:00 p.m. when you get there Heather is
15    giving her a shower.  How is she doing that?  Sitting in
16    the tub, or--
17        A.   Yeah.
18        Q.   -- or standing?
19        A.   Yeah.
20        Q.   She sitting down in the tub?
21        A.   Yeah.
22        Q.   Now, with all of your training -- and I may be
23    wrong in this, but let me throw it out, because I've only
24    been a cop for twenty-five years -- but in my training, if
25    someone loses their bowel control like that, and I've been

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 1    on any kind of a scene with a sick person, you know, I
 2    become very concerned. Did that not concern you a lot?
 3        A.    A lot, like she was going to die, not at all.
 4        Q.    I'm sorry, I didn't --
 5        A.    I was concerned.
 6        Q.    You were concerned?
 7        A.    I thought something is wrong with her now, also
 8    physically. But that kind of situation can happen.  Do
 9    you know the kids sometimes make that. The kids just lose
10    their --
11                  MR. POLLI:  Kids, can just lose their
12    bowels?
13                  THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, yeah.
14        BY MR. ANDREWS:
15        Q.    Kids?
16        A.    It's -- it's not because of a severe illness
17    going on, it's just most of the time something wrong in
18    the -- their -- their mind that they want to do something
19    with you, you know.
20        Q.    Okay.
21        A.    And yes, I thought that something was wrong with
22    her physically, and that's why I went to tell Janice.
23        Q.    My concern is in listening to all the people
24    tell us clues, you know, how she looked, I'm kind of
25    concerned that we have a woman who's limp, she can't stand

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 1    up on her own. She loses bowel control.  Her anus is
 2    relaxed, and yet this is at five p.m. in the evening, and
 3    we don't get her to a doctor until eight o'clock or 8:30
 4    at night.
 5             Now, I know that you've said if it was your
 6    decision, you would have done that differently?
 7        A.   Not really, you know.  I really never think that
 8    she was going to die.  She was not looking like she was
 9    going to die.
10        Q.   So at eight o'clock in the morning when you were
11    there she was okay.  But at five p.m. she looked a lot
12    different.  So in eight hours she possibly went down?
13        A.   Yeah.
14        Q.   Originally Detective Souter (phonetic) when he
15    talked to you, you talked about calling Janice because you
16    could tell that the girl was septic. Did you mention that
17    in your other interview?
18        A.   Say again.
19        Q.   That you called Janice and said you thought
20    Lisa was septic.  Did that come up that your testimony,
21    that you told Janice you thought she was septic?
22        A.   No.   I told Janice that after she died. I
23    really didn't understand it, how come she died too fast.
24        Q.   Oh, okay.   I took that in the interview to be
25    that the conversation at five o'clock when you talked to

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 1    Janice you told Janice this girl looks bad, this girl
 2    looks septic.  That did not occur?
 3         A.  I do not remember that.
 4         Q.  Okay.   Have you taken care of ill people before?
 5         A.  Yes.
 6         Q.  Okay.   Have you ever had to feed them with a
 7    syringe before?  What I'm getting at, if you were in a
 8    hospital and you were doing your training --
 9         A.  Yeah.
10         Q.  The doctor would not come in with a syringe or
11    turkey baster, and full of protein shake and shoot it in
12    somebody's mouth.  What would happen?
13         A.  Yes, sometimes.  What?  Say again.   Say again.
14    If I ever did, like, give a meals by that?
15         Q.  Yeah.
16         A.  Yes.
17         Q.  You have?
18         A.  Yeah.
19                   MR. ANDREWS: Okay.  I don't have any more.
20                           EXAMINATION
21         BY MR.  STROPE:
22         Q.  Under what conditions would you feed someone
23    like that?
24         A.  Under which condition?
25         Q.  What conditions would you feed somebody in a

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 1    hospital with a turkey baster?
 2         A.   Turk--
 3                   MR. POLLI:  Or syringe.  It's one syringe.
 4    If you say turkey baster, it's a big syringe.
 5                   THE WITNESS:  Somebody can do this because
 6    they got surgery in this and they cannot eat solid food.
 7         BY MR. STROPE:
 8         Q.   Wouldn't you do it intravenously?   Wouldn't that
 9    be the way to feed, intravenous?
10        A.   Point is you don't need to use in via this way
11   if you can use this, because this is the normal.
12        Q.   Well, everybody -- everybody that we talked to
13   that was with Lisa during the last days said that she
14   wouldn't -- she would just spit up food that you put in
15   her mouth.  So I can see this picture of you putting into
16   her mouth and she spitting it up anyway, right?
17        A.   No, not always.
18        Q.   So everybody that they've -- we've talked to
19   that had anything to do with Lisa during the last day say
20   that not only was she semi-conscious and not able to
21   respond, but she would spit up all the food that she was
22   given.  And that they always wrote reports.   Is that
23   right?  That's what we've gotten so far.  You say you fed
24   her, she swallowed.  She drank water, and you didn't write
25   any reports.  Is that right?

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 1         A.   Yeah, that's right.
 2         Q.   You never wrote a report on this case?
 3         A.   No.
 4         Q.   Why was that?
 5         A.   Because I was not writing in English.
 6         Q.   Well, we just took testimony a while ago, she
 7    wrote her reports in Spanish, De la Vega. Why would you
 8    not write a report? You worked December 5th, the last day
 9    and had transported her to the hospital, and you didn't
10   write a report?
11        A.   No.
12        Q.   Did you go over your testimony today with
13   anybody besides your attorney?
14        A.   My testimony?
15        Q.   Here today, what you're going to say?  Have you
16   gone over any --
17        A.   No.
18        Q.   Gone over any reports, besides speaking with
19   your  attorney, about what you're going to say today?
20        A.   No.
21        Q.   Who contacted you in Mexico to come back and
22   talk to us, besides your attorney?
23        A.   Lee Fugate.
24        Q.   Besides Lee Fugate?
25        A.   Yeah.  Lee Fugate, I talk with him a little bit

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 1    in front of him, and also -- well, his name is Santiago, I
 2    don't know his last name.
 3        Q.   I don't want to get between you and an attorney.
 4    Anybody else from the Church call you and talk to you
 5    about your testimony?
 6        A.   No.
 7        Q.   Are you being a hundred percent honest with us
 8    today?
 9        A.   Yes.
10        Q.   Are you?
11        A.   Yes.
12        Q.   You don't feel your conversation relating to
13    starting with the evening, on the evening of the 5th,
14    when yourself, Paul Greenwood, and Janice Johnson
15    transported this young lady to the hospital is one hundred
16    percent honest?
17        A.   One hundred percent what?
18        Q.   Honest?
19        A.   Yes, it's honest.
20        Q.   Well, we've had evidence, we talked to Paul
21    Greenwood. He testified for us his recollection is, his
22    initial recollection, both the statement that he gave
23    early and the statement that he gave under oath, said that
24    Lisa no way could handle herself.   She was breathing
25    deeply, eyes fixed, had a stare and --

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 1    and then I got married again and got pregnant, and then --
 2         BY MR. STROPE:
 3         Q.   It has nothing to do -- it's a personal thing?
 4    Nothing to do with your qualifications or aptitude towards
 5    that type of work?
 6         A.   No.
 7         Q.   You said that when you -- when Mark (sic) talked
 8    to you you said that you attended an original meeting
 9    before you got involved in this watch, and Alain was
10    there.  And I you gave a whole list of names.  You didn't
11    finish that list. Was Janice Johnson at that original
12    meeting?
13         A.   No.
14         Q.   You also said that Emma brought some clothes
15    early on to Lisa?
16         A.   I did, from Emma.
17         Q.   You brought clothes from Emma? Where did she
18    get those from, do you know?
19         A.   The office. I think that she needed a sweater.
20                   MR. POLLI: Who did? Lisa or Emma?
21                   THE WITNESS: No. I did, I bring in
22    sweater to Emma, because she was with Lisa.
23         BY MR. STROPE:
24         Q.   So they were your personal property?
25         A.   No, Emma's.

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 1           Q.     Emma's?    Did someone also go to Lisa's apartment
 2     and get her clothes?
 3           A.     I don't know.
 4           Q.     You don't know about that?
 5           A.     I don't know about that.
 6           Q.     And the chief person in charge of -- not her
 7     psychological well-being, because I think I understand
 8     that, that procedure -- but the chief person in charge of
 9     any medical needs would have been yourself or Janice
10     Johnson?
11           A.     Janice Johnson.
12           Q.     Ah, you're both, aside from the Boards, you're
13     both doctors right?
14           A.     Yes.
15           Q.     You're just not board approved or whatever. So        
16     if you had any medical problems, they would go to --
17           A.     Janice.
18           Q.     You say Janice wrote reports?
19           A.     Yes.
20           Q.     Did you see those reports? Did you see her
21     writing those reports?
22           A.     Yes.
23           Q.     Where were those reports going to?
24           A.     Going to Alain Kartuzinski.
25           Q.     Pardon?

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 1        A.   Going to Alain Kartuzinski.
 2        Q.   Where was she when she wrote them?  Like a chart
 3    a doctor does in the --
 4        A.   MLO office.
 5        Q.   You saw her in the MLO Office writing reports?
 6        A.   Yes.
 7        Q.   Did she tell you they were about Lisa?
 8        A.   That we was worried about Lisa.
 9        Q.   That these reports were about Lisa?
10        A.   Were about Lisa, yes.
11        Q.   And were they marked, Senior Case Supervisor,
12    Alain Kartuzinski?
13        A.   Yes.
14        Q.   Did she ever prescribe any medication for Lisa?
15    Did she tell you she was going to get a prescription or
16    anything?
17        A.   She cannot do that.
18        Q.   She cannot do that?
19        A.   No.
20        Q.   Is chlorhydrate a controlled substance?  Is that
21    a prescribed medication?
22        A.   Yes.
23        Q.   Where did that come from?
24        A.   Dr. Minkoff.
25        Q.   Do you have any idea when, in your tour of duty,

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 1    here in your watch, that that came into play?
 2         A.   When I went the second time it was on second
 3    Saturday I give her that.
 4         Q.   Okay.
 5         A.   So I don't know if she was taking that before or
 6    not.
 7         Q.   Well, why do you think -- I mean, they -- we
 8    pretty much got a picture that the security guards left
 9    somewhere around the 1st of December.  And later (sic) in
10    November she was agitated and nervous and making -- why
11    are we waiting until December to give her those?  Why
12    didn't we give her those when she was agitated early on in
13    her stay?  Do you have any idea? Did Janice ever talk
14    with you about that?
15         A.   No.
16         Q.   The chlorhydrate, was it pill, bottle, a
17    prescription bottle?
18         A.   Yeah.
19         Q.   Did you ever hear Janice talk to Dr. Minkoff
20    while you were there?
21         A.   No.
22         Q.   Did she tell you she called Dr. Minkoff to get a
23    prescription?
24         A.   She didn't tell me. Well, she told me, "I got a
25    prescription by Dr. Minkoff."

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 1        Q.   Did you go pick it up?
 2        A.   No.
 3        Q.   Do you know who did it?
 4        A.   No.
 5        Q.   Do you know what Cal-Mag is?
 6        A.   Yes.
 7        Q.   What is that?
 8        A.   Calcium and magnesium with vinegar.
 9        Q.   What was it for?
10        A.   Just relax.
11        Q.   What, is it injections?
12        A.   No, no to drink.
13        Q.   Were you ever there when Dr. Johnson gave Lisa a
14    shot?
15        A.   No.
16        Q.   You ever seen that?
17        A.   No.
18        Q.   Do you have any knowledge of that?
19        A.   No.
20        Q.   Dr. Johnson ever tell you how much chlorhydrate
21    to give?
22        A.   Two pills that night.
23        Q.   At night?
24        A.   Yeah.
25        Q.   When was the last time you gave her

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 1    chlorhydrate, that you can remember?
 2        A.   That I can remember, just Saturday.
 3        Q.   Is that a drug they use a lot in Mexico,
 4    chlorhydrate? We don't use it much in this country any
 5    more.
 6        A.   No.
 7        Q.   It's kind of rare to use that, isn't it?
 8        A.   Yeah.  I mean, I was not working with this, ah,
 9    kind of people, you know, that's a -- you have to go and
10    see a psychiatric (sic) to get that prescription. Just if
11    you want to put somebody really -- really out of control
12    to sleep, that's not usual.
13        Q.   When you called Janice to come to the room the
14    night of the 5th, what time was that again?
15        A.   It was around six.
16        Q.   Around six o'clock?
17        A.   Yeah.
18        Q.   And you had observed at five o'clock,  I think
19    you said, that something was wrong?
20        A.   Yeah.  When we -- I -- we went and we give her a
21    shower, then when we complete I give her something to
22    drink, then I went out.
23        Q.   I want to talk to you about that shower for a
24    minute. Rita told us that was quite a job because Lisa
25    was limp pretty much, you had to do all the work. Is that

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 1    true?
 2         A.   Heather.
 3         Q.   Heather, I'm sorry. Is that true?
 4         A.   Yes.
 5         Q.   So you had to do most of the work.  And when you
 6    dressed her you had to do most of the work?  I mean, Lisa
 7    wasn't able to dress herself?
 8         A.   No.
 9         Q.   And -- and with your medical training, you
10    weren't alarmed with that sphincter muscle relaxation,
11    that didn't alarm --
12         A.   Alarm? Yes, concern, but not at the point that
13    she was going to die.
14         Q.   When Janice -- when you called Janice and she
15    came, you said about six o'clock, did she check her vital
16    signs then?  Check her blood pressure?  Did she ever use a
17    blood pressure cuff?
18         A.   No, not that I see her.
19                   MR. POLLI: Okay.  She didn't call Janice,
20    she went and got Janice.
21                      MCGARRY:  Okay.
22         BY MR. STROPE:
23         Q.   All right. That's right.  For the record, I'm
24    sorry.  When you went and got Janice, you brought her back
25    was there a conversation, from the time you went to get

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65
 1      her to the time you got back to the room? What did you
 2      talk about?
 3            A.     While I was going back?
 4            Q.     While you were on your way from Janice's offices
 5      to Lisa, did you have a conversation with Janice?
 6            A.     No.    She was doing something else, so --
 7                          MR. ANDREWS:  She didn't come back until
 8      seven.
 9            BY MR. STROPE:
10             Q.     I -- I see.       She didn't come back until seven?
11             A.     Yeah.
12             Q.     When she came back did she check her vital signs
13       then?
14             A.     No.    We just dress her and bring her to the van
15       and drive to the hospital.
16             Q.     Wasn't there some lapse of time between the time
17       Janice came back until the time Paul Greenwood came?
18             A.     Same.
19             Q.     Wasn't there an hour from the time Janice
20       Johnson came back until Paul Greenwood came?
21             A.     No. they came together.
22                           MR. STROPE:  Is that what we --
23                           MR. ANDREWS:  I'm not sure.
24                           MR. STROPE:  Janice and Paul came together?
25                    Can we take a break for a minute?

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 1                    (A brief recess was taken.)
 2         BY MR. STROPE:
 3         Q.   Okay.  So what time did Janice Johnson finally
 4     get to the room?
 6         Q.   Around seven?
 7         A.   Yeah.
 8         Q.   What time did Paul Greenwood get to the room?
 9         A.   I don't know.
10         Q.   You don't know, but it was sometime after?
11         A.   Yeah.
12         Q.   They didn't come together?
13         A.   No.
14         Q.   Then yourself, Paul Greenwood, and Janice got in
15     the van and went to New Port Richey?
16         A.   Yeah.
17         Q.   Was it your idea to go to Dr. Minkoff, or
18     Dr. Johnson's idea?
19         A.   Janice idea.
20         Q.   Did you question that?
21         A.   No.
22         Q.   Do you think, in retrospect do you think that
23     was the right thing to do?
25                    MR. POLLI: She didn't know.

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 1                   MR. MCGARRY:    You knew it was a long ways
 2     away, right?
 3          A.  Now I know.
 4          BY MR. MCGARRY:
 5          Q.  Were you ever treated for anything in Morton
 6     Plant Hospital? Have you ever had any medical problems
 7     here, while you lived in Clearwater?
 8          A.  Before, no.
 9          Q.  Never had any reason to go to an emergency room
10    or to a hospital close to the -- to the --
11         A.  Not before Lisa.
12         Q.  -- Fort Harrison?   Not before Lisa?
13         A.  No.
14                  MR. STROPE:    I don't have anything else.
15                  MR. ANDREWS:    I just have a quick one.
16         BY MR. ANDREWS:
17         Q.  You go to the hospital, you find out that Lisa's
18    dead. Um, everybody gets back into Janice's van and you
19    drive back to Clearwater?
20         A.  Yeah.
21         Q.  Now, I wanted to jog your memory.  I know it's a
22    long time away. Our other information indicates that
23    security requested that the three of you, that being
24    yourself, Janice Johnson and Paul Greenwood, sit down in
25    the security office and write reports.  Now, did that not

                          KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320

68
 1     happen, according to your recollection?
 2          A.    No.
 3                     MR. ANDREWS:  Okay.  That's all I wanted to
 4     ask her.
 5                     MR. POLLI:  Okay.  Before we go, because
 6     when she's gone, she's gone.   It takes, to get her back --
 7     any problems?   What problems do we have?  I don't think
 8     she wrote a report.   I spent twenty hours with her, I
 9     don't think she wrote a report.
10                    MR. ANDREWS: Okay.
11                    MR. POLLI:  Why she didn't write them in
12    Spanish, I don't know.   Whoever that it was, she gave
13    the -- Silvia --
14                    MR. MCGARRY:   We're through.  You can go
15    off.
16                CONCLUDED AT APPROXIMATELY 3:15 P.M.
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