Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Brian J.Anderson
Clearwater OSA Chief
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
STATEMENT OF: BRIAN J. ANDERSON
DATE: August 14, 1997
TIME: Began: 10:35 a.m.
Ended: 2:00 p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RNR
Registered Merit Reporter
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
Page 3159 Image
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
Robert P. Polli, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 1130
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
10 JORGE E. CARRASQUILLO, Detective
City of clearwater Police Department
18 EXAMINATION PAGE
19 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 128
20 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO 156
22 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 162
Page 3160 Image
2 The deponent herein,
2 BRIAN J. ANDERSON,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. McGARRY: Would you like to put something
7 on the record?
8 MR. POLLI: Thank you.
9 My name is Bob Polli. I.represent
10 Mr. Anderson in this interview.
11 Mr. Anderson here is pursuant to an
12 investigative subpoena that we have been provided with
13 by the State Attorney's Office. I've explained to
14 Mr. Anderson what Chapter 914 provides in the way of
.1 protections. He's fully been informed of those
16 protections and the responsibilities that go along with
17 that immunity protection and he is ready to proceed
18 according. Thank you.
19 MR. McGARRY: Thank you. We'll begin.
21 BY MR. McGARRY:
22 Q. Your name for the record.
23 A. Brian J. Anderson.
24 Q. And your birth date?
25 A. X, 1948.
Page 3161 Image
1 Q. And where do you live?
2 A. At X Clearwater.
3 Q. Is that a house?
4 A. It's an apartment complex for Staff housing.
5 Q. Okay. Do you live in this apartment -- is this by
6 yourself or do you have a roommate?
7 A. My wife.
8 Q. Wife, okay.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. And how long have you lived in Clearwater?
11 A. Since -- for three years. Since August, `94.
12 Q. And where did you live before that?
13 A. Los Angeles and Hollywood.
14 Q. And when did you join the Church of Scientology?
15 A. September, 1972. Well, I joined Staff of the
16 church in 1972.
17 Q. Okay. And that was in California?
18 A. No, no. St. Louis, Missouri.
19 Q. All right. And sometime after that you moved to
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. Okay. Do you remember approximately when that
23 was? No big deal.
24 A. Yeah. It would have been in 19 -- well, I've been
25 there -- I first moved -- I've been there twice, but I first
Page 3162 Image
1 moved there in 1981, late 1981.
2 Q. All right. And you were Staff there in
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was your responsibility there?
6 A. I worked in different areas, but prima!rily it was
7 as a Manager over -- I was in an administrative position as
8 a Manager for the Church.
9 Q. All right. And you continued to do that until
10 August of `94?
11 A. No, until 1988. And then I went to Washington,
12 D.C., to the Church there. Worked in the Public Affairs
13 Office that we had in Washington, D.C. -- we have in
14 Washington, D.C.
15 Q. Don't have it anymore?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It's still there?
18 A. It's still there, yeah.
19 And that was until in 1990, and then I went back
20 to Los Angeles.
21 Q. All right. And what did you do when you went, back
22 to L.A.?
23 A. I was an administrator again. I worked in the
24 external affairs area, and I was in charge of one of our
25 social reform activities, which was dealing with
Page 3163 Image
1 investigating and cleaning up abuses in the psychiatric
2 field, as an administrator. In other words, I would
3 initiate programs and campaigns that we would run
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And that was until I came here in `94.
7 Q. All right. And whose choice was it to come here
8 in August of `94?
9 A. Mine.
10 Q. Okay. Did you ask to be transferred here?
11 A. Well, the proposal was offered to me, `cause they
12 wanted -- I had -- I had experience in working in public
13 affairs for the Church, and I was asked in Los Angeles if I
14 wanted -- if I'd be willing to -- the idea was somebody
15 else's, but the choice was put to me if I wanted to come to
16 Clearwater. And I said yeah, I'd transfer to Clearwater.
17 Q. And then became in charge of -- what is,
18 essentially, your title now?
19 A. I'm in charge of Public Affairs right now, the
20 Public Affairs Division, where we run all the community
21 affairs activities for the Church here in Clearwater.
22 Q. So specifically what is your title right now?
23 Has it been all along the same title since August
24 of `94?
25 A. No. In August, `94, I came here, I was the
Page 3164 Image
1 Commanding Officer for the Office of Special Affairs for the
2 Church in Clearwater.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. And then I'm now the Public Affairs Director.
5 Q. All right. Well, let's break that down.
6 In November of 1995, what was your position in the
7 Church here in Clearwater?
8 A. I was -- in November `95 I was the
9 Commanding Officer for Office of Special Affairs.
10 Q. All right. Now, is there a position above that in
12 A. No, not -- not here.
13 Q. That's,the head position at OSA here in
15 A. Right. Right.
16 Q. All right. And the public relations position that
17 you now enjoy, is that a position that is a comparable
18 position to what you had as far as seniority or is it --
19 A. Well, it's similar, only one --
20 Q. -- just in a different place?
21 A. No, it's one step down. In other words, my
22 supervisor now is the Commanding Officer of OSA.
23 Q. Andwho is that?
24 A. Ben Shaw.
25 Q. Ben?
Page 3165 Image
1 A. Ben Shaw.
2 Q. And when did Mr. Shaw take that position?
3 A. It was early this year. I forget exact -- I don't
4 know exactly, forget exactly when.
5 Q. And you moved to public relations, correct?
6 A. I moved to public relations in -- I assumed the
7 post in early June, 1996.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. And it was somebody else who had -- who was
10 holding the CO position until Ben --
11 Q. Who was that?
1 A. Humberto Fontana.
13 Q. Where is he now?
14 A. He's in Los Angeles.
15 Q. And what is Mrs. Cook's position in the Church
16 right now?
17 A. She runs all the deliveries. She's in charge of
18 all the delivery. The title is Captain for like the
19 Service Organization, but she's in charge of running the
21 Q. Did she come from California also?
22 A. I'm not sure where she's from.
23 Q. How long has she been around?
24 A. She was here before I got here. I'm not sure --
25 Q. She was here during this Lisa McPherson thing?
Page 3166 Image
1 A. Uh-huh, yes.
2 Q. Yes, she has to hear the answers audibly.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. So give me your duties, if you would, briefly for
5 Office of Special Affairs Commanding Officer in 1995.
6 A. Well, I would be in charge of the external matters
7 that the Church deals with, immigration matters, any
8 relations, anything we have ongoing with our attorneys,
9 legal matters, public affairs, community. affairs activities.
10 We have a lot of community affairs programs, and that all
11 comes under that office.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. Like external facing duties.
14 Q. Okay. When did you first meet Lisa McPherson, if
15 you ever did?
16 A. I never did.
17 Q. Okay. Did you know who she was without meeting
19 A: Yes. There was a time when we were running the --
20 we were doing this Winter Wonderland project. She was in
21 the ninety -- well, we've done it each year. In the `95
22 Winter Wonderland is when I first heard her name. She was
23 one of the volunteers in the Winter Wonderland.
24 Q. Wasn't that Benetta Slaughter's program?
25 A. She was helping on it. In 1995 she was one of the
Page 3167 Image
1 main volunteers that was helping to organize the whole
3 Q. I was under the assumption she was putting on that
4 Winter Wonderland.
5 A. In `94 she wasn't -- she was one of the
6 volunteers, but it came under the purview of my office. But
7 Benetta Slaughter was --
8 Q. Was the point person for the Winter Wonderland?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And Lisa McPherson worked for Benetta?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Benetta is not Staff?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Has she ever been Staff?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know. I've never -- I've
16 never known her to be Staff.
17 Q. Okay. What does she do other than help you with
18 the Winter Wonderland thing? What is her business?
19 A. She runs -- she's one of the co-owners, I think,
20 at AMC Publishing in Clearwater.
21 Q. All right. Were you aware that Lisa McPherson
22 worked there for her?
23 A. At that time, I don't recall if I knew that or
24 not. I know she was a volunteer on the Winter Wonderland
25 project, but -- and I knew Benetta knew her, I didn't know
Page 3168 Image
1 if she knew her just because she was a volunteer or because
2 she worked for her.
3 Q. I won't get too far afield.
4 You're saying Benetta Slaughter owns that business
5 with her husband?
6 A. I think she's a co-owner. That's my
8 Q. Okay. And that business does what, publish
10 A. Yeah. They work with the insurance industry.
11 They do publishing work for the insurance industry.
12 Q. All right. I don't want to spend -- this could be
13 a lengthy interview we do here, but I don't -- I need a few
14 little background areas as far as the hierarchy is concerned
15 in the Church, because as you might well guess, as your
16 lawyer has probably told you, it's pretty complicated for us
17 to follow.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. At the time I understand that either Arthur Baxter
20 or Paul Kellerhals was in charge of Security. Now, I
21 understand there's more than one, and it's been changed
22 since then multiple times, but there were kind of two
23 separate divisions, and they would not necessarily switch
24 hats, but for a period of time one would call the other
25 Senior and then there was a period of time where the other
Page 3169 Image
1 one would call the other Senior.
2 I mean, they were actually -- does that
3 essentially kind of describe their relationship, they were
4 both kind of high up in the Security system, but one of them
5 was in one department and one of them might have been in
6 another department?
7 A. Yeah. I think Paul -- as I recall, I think Paul
8 was Senior. Maybe not in every single point, but I think
9 for the most part he was, yeah.
10 Q. For the most part?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. All right. When did you become aware that there
13 was a problem with Lisa McPherson? And I use that term
14 loosely, "a problem," but I mean, she -- she ended up in
15 your building.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When did you become aware of that?
18 A. When I heard that she, had been taken to
19 Morton Plant Hospital in November.
20 Q. Okay. Who told you that, if you can remember?
21 A. Y eah, I -- as I -- I think it was a call from one
22 of the Security staff. I don't know who it might have been.
23 I don't know if it was Arthur or who, but it was a call, and
24 I think it -- it was either through one of my staff or
25 directly to me, I forget. This was close to two years ago
Page 3170 Image
1 now. But it was a call that had come in that she had been
2 taken down to Morton Plant by -- by -- I think it was told
by the police at the time.
4 Q. Okay. Why would you get that call?
5 A. Well-- -
6 Q. If you know.
7 A. Yeah., It would be of concern to us as
8 Scientologists in the area if someone was taken to
9 Morton Plaflt under the possibility of being committed under
10 the Baker Act.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. That would be of concern. I'd be interested in
14 Q. Right. Because I know your position on --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- psychiatry and all that with the mental
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Your position is you guys aren't -- how would I
20 put that? You don't see eye to eye with the latest in
21 American psychiatric programs?
22 A. Well, let me -- let me just tell you what the
23 concern would be. There's a good chance, in that setting,
24 that someone could be given abusive treatment, either -- by
25 "abusive" I mean electroshock or mind altering destructive
Page 3171 Image
2 Q. Down the way, not obviously the night this
3 occurred, you're talking about down the line if she were to
4 be committed under that circumstance?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. You were thinking that ultimately could have
7 appened to her?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. And that was your concern?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. Did you have a conversation with Benetta Slaughter
12 on that day?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you have a conversation with Benetta Slaughter
15 within a couple days of that event?
16 A. I don't recall if I did or not.
17 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with
18 Benetta Slaughter about her employee?
19 A. Uh-huh, yes. Yes.
20 Q. Where was that in relationship to the original
21 event that occurred when she was naked, running around the
23 A. Yeah. Well, I remember talking, to Benetta, I'll
24 have to think now when this was, but I remember talking to
25 Benetta, asking her what happened on that. It must have
Page 3172 Image
1 been within a couple days.
2 Q. What happened on what, on that day?
3 A. Yeah, on that night. Like could she please run
4 through for me what the sequence was. And then Benetta told
5 me that -- what the sequence was.
6 They had been together and Benetta was expecting
7 Lisa to follow her. I forget what she told me, from where
8 to where. I think they were going from AMC, the company, to
9 somewhere else, maybe Benetta's house or Lisa's house.
10 Anyway, they were going somewhere else.
11 And when Benetta got to that destination, Lisa
12 didn't show up. And then she backed up -- this is what
13 Benetta was telling me I think a couple days later. That
14 she saw the vehicle, the Jeep, Lisa's Jeep on the road, but
15 didn't see Lisa, and stopped. And I think she said she
16 talked to paramedics there, and the paramedics told her what
18 And I think Benetta -- I forget if Benetta, she
19 went down to Morton Plant or not. But I was interested in
20 what happened, she told me what happened.
21 Q. Did you memorialize this conversation, by any
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you talk to anybody else other than her more
25 close -- more closely to the event at Morton Plant that
Page 3173 Image
1 briefed you on what exactly occurred on that day?
2 A. On that day?
3 Q. You mentioned a Security Guard briefed you for the
4 initial call. Did you further follow-up to get a briefing
5 as to what exactly occurred?
6 A. At Morton Plant?
7 Q. Well, that day with her car and being undressed
8 and running around the street and the whole scenario.
9 A: No, no. No, that scenario I got from
10 Benetta Slaughter, and I don't recall asking anybody else
11 about that.
12 Q. Okay. Were you involved in the decision that you
13 made to offer her or extend her the -- the services of the
14 Church, a room?, Were you involved in that?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who was?
17 A. I'm not sure who was. I was -- I'm not sure who
19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the individuals that
20 represent your Church that showed up down at Morton Plant
22 A. I'm sorry, I missed the first part, am I aware of
23 who was down there?
24 Q. Are you aware of the individuals of your Church
25 who showed up at Morton Plant?
Page 3174 Image
1 A. Some.
2 Q. Who do you remember going down there?
3 A. I remember two of my staff, Annie Mora and
4 Humberto Fontana. I think Judy Goldsberry-Weber was down
5 there, Alain Kartuzinski. There may have been one or two
6 others, but I forget who it was.
7 Q. Okay. Was Benetta there?
8 A. She -- I don't know for certain if she went or
9 not. I forget if she told me she went down there or not.
to Q. Okay. At whose direction did the members of your
11 staff, your particular office go down there?
12 A. My direction.
13 Q. And the reason for that was your previous answer
14 about your concerns about the Baker Act situation?
15 A. Yeah. And find out what was going on and just let
16 me know, go down there and find out what was happening.
17 Q. Lisa was not Staff, nor has she ever been Staff.
18 while she was in Clearwater?
19 A. Well, she was never been Staff since I came there
20 in `94.
21 Q. She was in Texas.
22 A. I don't think she was Staff before that in
23 Clearwater. My understanding is she was not Staff in
24 Clearwater. If she was in Texas --
25 Q. That's my understanding also. It's not a trick
Page 3175 Image
1 question. I think she may have been somewhere else, maybe
2 Texas, I'm not sure.
3 A. Maybe.
4 Q. Would this courtesy that you guys afforded her,
5 would that have been extended to any other parishioner or
6 was this something that was unusual here because of the
7 circumstances surrounding her bad day?
8 Reason why I ask, she wasn't Staff, she's just a
9 member of your Church, and you guys afforded her this --
10 this opportunity.
11 A. I mean, for sure it was an unusual circumstance.
12 I would say yes, it probably would -- it would probably --
13 it's hard to conjecture what the circumstances might be, but
14 if there was something similar, I think we would offer that,
15 yeah. I could see that happening.
16 Q. Okay. But you weren't involved in this -- in the
17 decision to bring her back to the hotel?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. And that person would have been who?
20 A. I'm not sure who. I'm not sure who. I was told
21 at one point by Paul Kellerhaus that it was just -- they had
22 a room and she was going to go into a room, and I just
23 acknowledged the communication, I didn't
24 Q. All right. It's my understanding that,
25 Mr. Kartuzinski was her Case Supervisor, correct?
Page 3176 Image
1 A. Well, Alain is a Case Supervisor, and was at that
2 time a Case Supervisor, but I don't know if he was hers. I
3 don't know if she was there for auditing purposes. When you
4 say he was her Case Supervisor, I don't -- my understanding
5 wasn't that she was there, for auditing purposes, although he
6 is a Case Supervisor.
7 Q. I'll cut to the chase.
8 My understanding now is, from talking to many,
9 many witnesses, the purpose of her being there in the
10 Church, correct me if I'm wrong, she was experiencing some
11 mental problems, and you guys were going to stabilize her
12 through an isolation watch. And after that watch occurred,
13 there was going to be a procedure run on her, and the
14 procedure was an Introspection Rundown. Are you aware of
16 A. I don't know. I don't know if the plan was to
17 have her have an Introspection Rundown.
18 Q. You didn't know then or you don't know now?
19 A. I don't know now. I didn't know then and I don't
20 know now if that was the plan or not. You may have heard
21 that testimony from somebody, that may be the case, but I
22 don't know that was a definite plan, that she had an
23 Introspection Rundown.
24 Q. All right, I find it unusual that the people at
25 the level of Church responsibility that I've talked to,
Page 3177 Image
1 which would include 20 people that have various
2 responsibilities, involving housekeeping, all the way up to,
3 you know, librarians and you name it, would have that
4 knowledge and yet you wouldn't. You see what I'm saying?
5 find that to be a little unusual, that they would know that
6 there's a procedure, which is a fairly rare procedure --
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. -- that they would know that and the Chief of OSA
9 doesn't know. -
10 A. Right. Well, my understanding -- I didn't -- I
11 was never -- it was never reported to me that this was the
12 plan, that she was going to, as a definitive plan, that she
13 was going to have an Introspection Rundown. That's -- I've
14 not heard that that was the plan.
15 Q. Until this moment right now?
16 A. Well, I mean, if someone has testified that that
17 was the plan, then I'm not saying it wasn't, but I was --
18 correct, I've not been told and was not aware that that was
19 a definite plan that she was going to have an
20 Introspection Rundown.
21 MR. POLLI: Wait a second. But you know the
22 tech manuals all have, because we've talked about it,
23 that as part of what could happen. You're not telling
24 him you've never heard of a psychotic break?
25 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
Page 3178 Image
1 A. I'm aware of the -- of the procedure of
2 Introspection -- let me clarify. Maybe I'm missing your
4 Q. No, I got it. I got it. You know all'about it.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. I mean, what it is. I'm not saying you don't know
7 what it is.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. You know that that chapter exists in the tech,
10 Hubbard's tech manual?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. My question is, until I just asked you this
13 question, you have never had -- or spoken the words
14 Introspection Rundown in reference to Lisa McPherson's case
15 up until today?
16 A. I've never been told that was a definitive plan,
17 that she was going to have an Introspection Rundown.
18 Q. You're qualifying that by using "definitive plan."
19 A. Well, a plan.
20 Q. Let's not use that word, "definitive." That makes
21 it sound like somebody was going to do that, and that's not
22 the question.
23 My question is, have you ever spoken the words
24 "Introspection Rundown" with anybody in reference to the
25 plan that was going to be implemented to bring
Page 3179 Image
1 Lisa McPherson back to normal?
2 A. Can I just -- I'm not trying to be coy.,
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. What I -- what I -- you said regarding the plan to
5 have her have an Introspection Rundown. I am not aware and
6 was not aware thrt there was a plan to give her an
7 Introspection Rundown. That's what I'm trying to say.
8 I've -- in answer to your first part of the
9 question, yes, I've spoken the words
10 "Introspection Rundown," because it came up in.the media
11 that the plan was that she was -- she was there to get the
12 Introspection Rundown.
13 And I've talked to, I'm sure, my attorneys and
14 gone -- but -- but even in that conversation, I've never
15 heard anybody say, and to my understanding it wasn't the
16 plan, only because I hadn't heard it being the plan, to give
17 her an Introspection Rundown. I've never -- I've never
18 heard anybody say, yeah, our plan was to give her an
19 Introspection Rundown.
20 Q. Did you hear about any other plans that might have
21 been coming down the way for Lisa during her stay?
22 A. In terms of auditing, no.
23 Q. Okay. Let me just ask you this: What were your
24 thoughts on why she was being accommodated at the hotel for
25 17 days?
Page 3180 Image
1 A. To provide her some avenue to come out of what, she
2 was in. And to provide her food and so forth in a -- in a
3 place other than a potentially harmful setting such as a
4 psych ward.
5 Q. Okay
6 A. To --
7 Q. I find that statement ironic. I mean, she's dead
8 now. Obviously, this thing -- I mean, she had -- she
9 expired in your hotel.
10 A. Yeah.
12 Q. That's why we're sitting here.
12 A. I don't know if she expired --
13 Q. She expired either in your hotel or on the way to
14 the hospital from your hotel.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. So your choice of words is not exactly appropriate
17 for "harmful setting" in other places.
18 A. Well, anyway, I mean, that's -- I'm just telling
19 you what my thought was.
20 Q. All right. So you can't explain to me why some of
21 these people would understand that that was the procedure
22 that was going to be run, but that information didn't reach
23 the OSA Office. Is that what you're telling me?
24 A. It didn't reach me.
25 Q. Okay. How many -- have you had some conversations
Page 3181 Image
1 with Alain Kartuzinski -- let me focus in on him for a
3 Mr. Kartuzinski, you're telling me -- let me put
4 it this way: What was his relationship to Lisa McPherson,
6 A. My understanding is that he knew what was going
7 on, but I don't know -- I couldn't give you a blow by blow
8 on what he did on a day-by-day basis. He'd have to tell you
9 that. But I'm aware of the fact that he was monitoring what
10 was, to some degree at least, what was going on. That's my
11 understanding, that he was monitoring and knew --
12 particulars you'd have to get from him, but my understanding
13 was that he had some information as to what was going on
14 while she was there.
15 Q. Okay. And who did you get that information from?
16 A. I talked to Alain at one point.
17 Q. Let's break that down.
18 Did you talk to Mr. Kartuzinski during this 17
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you talk to anybody that had anything to do
22 with Lisa McPherson during those 17 days?
23 A. Yes, Paul Kellerhaus.
24 Q. Okay. Was he the one that was informing you what
25 the status of her case was?
Page 3182 Image
1 A. He would -- on occasion I would ask him how is it
2 going, what's -- what's happening, and he would -- he would
3 tell me what was going on.
4 Q. All right. And obviously, you were becoming now
5 aware that she was experiencing some --
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. -- further mental difficulties?
8 A. Right. Right.
9 Q. Okay. And how often would he-give you those
11 A. Maybe -- it was a verbal report. I would see him
12 every day or every other day and he would -- I would get
13 that from him maybe every -- during the course in time it
14 was probably about four or five, six times that I talked to
15 Paul, so it would be every few days, every couple of days.
16 Q. How about Arthur Baxter, did you ever speak to him
17 during these 17 days?
18 A. Pardon me?
19 Q. Mr. Baxter, did you speak to him also?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So Paul was your contact person in reference to
22 Lisa McPherson?
23 A. Paul was the only person I got information from.
24 Q. You said you talked to Mr. Kartuzinski, but that
25 was after Lisa died?
Page 3183 Image
1 A. Yes, the next day.
2 Q. The following day after her death?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And why was Mr. Kartuzinski getting reports on
5 Lisa's status at the hotel?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You don't know?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know why he, out of all the people in
10 the hotel, would be getting direct reports on her status?
11 A. Well, from the sense that he was monitoring
12 what -- or had an interest in how she was doing, yes.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. Well, he's--he would -- he'd be in a role -- he
15 would have a role and responsibility or an interest at least
16 in how someone was doing who was staying --
17 Q. Okay. My question is, why him? What was his job?
18 A. His job at that time as Senior Case Supervisor
19 would be to make sure somebody was doing well who was there
20 under -- in some form of care under the Church.
21 Q. But his area that he's in charge of involves
22 auditing, right? He was the Senior Case guy in charge of
23 people that do auditing, correct?
24 A. That's right. I don't --
25 Q. He's not an MLO person, correct?
Page 3184 Image
1 A. He's not an MLO person, no.
2 But I think the activities they would take would
3 be of interest to him. In other words, because his
4 responsibilities are to monitor what goes on in auditing
5 wouldn't necessarily mean that every person he was
6 interested in was there getting auditing, although that is
7 his main area of responsibility.
8 Like I say, it's -- we don't have people coming
9 there in that setting, in that kind of circumstance every
11 Q. Right. I've heard that.
12 A. But it wouldn't -- it wouldn't -- I don't think it
13 would be outside of Alain's interest, even if she -- my
14 understanding then was that she was not getting -- was not
15 getting auditing, that was my understanding. It didn't seem
16 odd to me that Alain would have an interest in what was
17 happening from a -- from a -- from the MLO Staff viewpoint.
18 It wouldn't seem odd or out of -- out of his realm to take
19 an interest in what was happening with Lisa even though she
20 wasn't getting auditing.
21 Q. All right. Since this has occurred or at least --
22 let me ask you this: During those 17 days, were you aware
23 that there was a system in place in which you had members of
24 your Church staff watch her around the clock? Were you
25 aware of that?
Page 3185 Image
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And who made you aware of that?
3 A. Paul.
4 Q. Mr. Kellerhaus?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Okay. Just guessing, there were probably 15 or 20
7 various girls that were watching her around the clock.
8 You're aware of that, correct?
9 A. I am now. At the time I couldn't have given you a
10 number, but I'm aware of that now.
11 Q. Well, that's just a rough figure, not going to
12 hold you to it.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Are you aware they had a system in place in which
15 they would write down their observations that they made
16 during the course of their watch?
17 A. At that time I did not, no.
18 Q. Are you aware of that now?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you become aware of that?
21 A. Because I asked. It was earlier this -- at the
22 point where certain documents were being requested under --
23 under discovery rules.
24 Q. That's the first time you became aware of reports
25 being written in this situation?
Page 3186 Image
1 A. Handwritten reports, yeah.
2 Q. So it's your testimony you had no idea up until
3 the time that this thing --
4 MR. POLLI: There are two sets of reports.
5 There's the reports that Marcus Quirino -- he knows
6 about those.
7 MR. McGARRY: Right.
8 MR. POLLI: We're talking about the
9 day-to-day --
10 MR. McGARRY: Daily caretaker notes.
11 MR. POLLI: Daily caretaker notes.
12 A. Let me -- I'm trying to think back now.
13 On the day-to-day caretaker reports, I don't
14 remember exactly if Paul told me at the time during her stay
15 there that they were giving -- that she was getting -- there
16 were handwritten reports,. He may have told me some written
17 reports were being done, he may have mentioned that.
18 I remember having the concept there were some
19 written reports. Let me correct. Forget what I just told
20 you. I had the idea there were some written reports, and I
21 was getting that from what Paul told me. Every three days I
22 would ask him, How's everything going?
23 Q. But you've never seen those reports?
24 A. I never saw them up until just a couple months
25 ago, maybe June or so.
Page 3187 Image
1 Q. We'll get to that.
2 The reports, are you aware of why these reports
3 were being written?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You don't know?
6 A. I mean, well, at that time I didn't have some
7 clear recollection that, okay, there -- I didn't have the
8 concept there were daily reports being written, you know, in
9 some detail that I'm aware of now because I've read the
10 reports since, the daily caretaker reports. But why they're
11 being written, never -- thought never -- I'd have to say no,
12 I didn't think about that.
13 Q. Okay. Who would they be -- for what benefit or
14 who is getting the benefit of the reports? Who were they
15 being written for?
16 A. I don't know. I mean, in retrospect --
17 Q. Today.
18 A. Today?
19 Q. I'm asking you today, do you know who those
20 reports were being written for?
21 A. My understanding is they went into the PC folder,
22 some kind of a folder. And who was reading those, I don't
23 know, but I -- I would --I don't know. I could guess who
24 they'd be for. My guess would be Alain would look at them.
25 That would be my guess.
Page 3188 Image
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But I'm guessing.
3 Q. Do you know?
4 A. I'm guessing, but I don't know.
5 Q. You've never been told that he reviewed those
7 A. No.
8 Q. Either by Paul Kellerhaus, Marcus Quirino,
9 Benetta Slaughter, any of those people?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Kartuzinski if he reviewed
12 those reports?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Haven't asked since this occurred?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You've had conversations with him, I guess, since
17 this occurred?
18 A. A couple.
19 Q. Couple conversations --
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. -- with Mr. Kartuzinski since this occurred?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. In reference to Lisa McPherson?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Okay:
Page 3189 Image
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If he were to be the one that would read the
3 reports, why would he be the one?
4 A. Well, you're asking me to conjecture. I mean --
5 Q. The reason --let me finish the question -- the
6 reason why I'm ask you questions like that as opposed to
7 some of these people here is because of your title.
8 A. All right.
9 Q. Because of your title you should know. Would you
10 agree with that?
11 A. Yeah, maybe --
12 Q. Of all the people I talked to in this case --
13 MR. POLLI: A bunch.
14 Q. -- 20 or 30 people, more than that --
15 A. Right.
16 Q. -- if there's a procedure in place in that Church
17 in 1995 that goes on, if there's something going on there,
18 who would be in the best position to know the answer?
19 A. Here -- can I just clarify something? Maybe this
20 will get to the point. I'm not -- I'm not trying to be coy
21 with you.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. If there was a person who was there specifically
24 for auditing purposes, yes, Alain Kartuzinski would most
25 definitely have an interest. He maybe has other staff that
Page 3190 Image
1 might be dealing in a Case Supervisor role where they would
2 look on a daily basis as to how it was progressing with
3 someone's auditing, and then he is Senior over those areas.
4 I don't know if he would see every single report, but he
5 might check in, he would make sure things are being run
6 right and people are satisfied with the auditing they are
7 getting, and he'd make sure things were being applied
9 We have a situation here where she wasn't there to
10 get auditing. You say it would be Alain's role. Well, this
11 is a little -- this is a different situation, where --
12 Q. Let me -- I want to let you continue, I don't ,want
13 to cut you short.
14 I'm not sure, would an Introspection Rundown,
15 would that be considered auditing or not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It would be --
18 A. Yes. My understanding is it is.
19 Q. -- auditing?
20 A. I'm not technically trained, but it's my
21 understanding that would be considered auditing.
22 Q. We didn't cover that. What level are you?
23 A. Clear.
24 Q. You're Clear?
25 A. And I've done some training, but not a lot of
Page 3191 Image
1 training in how to deliver counsel.
2 Q. You're at least the same level as Lisa,
3 Mr. Kartuzinski and Dr. Minkoff?
4 A. Well, there's -- you're mixing up --
5 Q. I'm talking about as far as your -- not your
6 technical training, your spiritual training.
7 A. Administrative training, I'm --
8 Q. Way over those people?
9 A. -- probably comparable with Alain. Technically,
10 he's much more trained than I am on the technical side of,
11 the thing. In other words, technical means how you apply
12 auditing, Church counsel.
13 Q. Back to where we were. I didn't mean to
15 Now that I know that auditing is the process that
16 the Introspection Rundown involves --
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. -- you're still not saying that's what he had
20 planned for her?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. If he had it planned for her, that would be why he
23 got the reports. Do I have that right?
24 A. If -- yeah, I think that's close enough. I mean,
25 if they were planning to do -- if they were planning to have
Page 3192 Image
1 her on some kind of an auditing program, once that auditing
2 program began there then would be reports that he would see
3 from whoever was -- from the Auditor. "The Auditor" meaning
4 the counselor would do a report on how the auditing session
5 went, and he would review that.
6 Q. And you didn't know about any of that plan?
7 A. I didn't know about any of that plan. I'm not
8 saying there wasn't a plan, I don't know of any plan. And
9 I -- my understanding was that she was not there to get
10 auditing. And I didn't know that she -- if Alain had a plan
11 to have her receive auditing, I didn't know about it.
12 Q. All right. Well, I know about it --
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. -- because I've been told that, and so has he --
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. -- on numerous occasions.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Okay. I'm going to go with the assumption that
19 there was a plan to audit --
20 A. Okay. I'm not saying there wasn't.
21 Q. -- and do an Introspection Rundown.
22 I find it incredible that, you being the head guy,
23 on a pretty big thing -- -
24 `Cause Introspection Rundowns apparently don't
25 happen every day, correct?
Page 3193 Image
1 A. Right.
2 Q. -- that you wouldn't know about that.
3 A. Well, I -- I don't. I mean, should or shouldn't,
4 you may be right, but --
5 Q. Would you agree there would be quite a major
6 breakdown in the Church's communication system that that
7 possibly occurred or was going to occur without your
8 knowledge? Does that not offend you a little bit?
9 A. Yeah. I mean, I should have known every detail,
10 frankly, from my position as to what was, happening in that
12 Q. I would think.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. It's a big thing, right?
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. And you're saying -- you're standing here today
17 under oath telling me that you did not know that that was
18 the plan?
19 A. To -- exactly. To give her the
20 Introspection Rundown, that's true.
21 Q. And that did not make it to your level, but it
22 made it to everybody's level far, far below your position in
23 the Church?
24 A. If -- exactly. I mean, whatever you have, you
25 have. I don't know who -- who these people --
Page 3194 Image
1 Q. I can name a bunch of names. I mean, they're
2 people that are just regular staff members, watch members.
3 A. But if you're talking should have known, I agree,
4 should have known.
5 Q. You should have known that?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. So who's responsible for that breakdown in that --
8 in that Com -- would you call that a Com infraction?
9 A. That would be myself. If I were to turn the clock
10 back, I would have done more and found out exactly what was
12 Q. Well, is that how it should be, an
13 Introspection Rundown is going to be going on underneath
14 your watch and you don't know about it and you have to dig
15 to find out that that's going to occur?
16 A. There are literally hundreds, many hundreds of
17 people every day that have various auditing programs and
18 different line-ups.
19 Q. I know. We've already come to -- come to grips
20 with this was a different --
21 A. I understand.
22 Q. -- animal. This is not an auditing session, this
23 is an Introspection Rundown.
24 A. I wouldn't -- it's not part of my job necessarily
25 to know what specific auditing steps someone may have
Page 3195 Image
1 planned, even -- even for someone like Lisa, because my --
2 my understanding at the time was that she was not there to
3 get auditing, and that -- I don't know. Or that she was --
4 there was a plan to give her some auditing, that wasn't my
6 Q. Well, I don't want to be argumentative, but to
7 further go into the subject matter, I can believe that maybe
8 for the 17 days it was going on there, maybe Kartuzinski had
9 this plan and he might not have informed you about it. Is
10 that possible?
11 A. Very possible.
12 Q. Well, if it was going to be done, he would have
13 been the guy to do it, correct?
14 A. I think he would have been the one to decide,
16 Q. If an Introspection Rundown was going to happen,
17 who would be the one that would implement it?
18 A. I think Alain. It might have been one of his
19 staff, but I think he would know about it for sure.
20 Q. Well, who else? Give me some other people.
21 A. I don't know who his staff were at that time. It
22 would be in -- in the Case Supervisor Office.
23 Q. All right. And just so we're clear for the
24 redord, during that 17 days he never told you that this was
25 going to happen?
Page 3196 Image
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. All right. And apparently, from our previous
3 coverage of this area, up until now you still weren't sure
4 that that was going to be the procedure?
5 A. No. I mean, I don't even consider it that odd,
6 partIcularly because I'm an administrator, I'm not over the
7 technical area.
8 Q. Okay. Well, the police got involved in this case
9 right off the bat, and then it went through some ebbs and
10 flows with various investigative coverage.
11 Would it seem logical that out of all the press
12 that got generated on this thing right from the get-go and
13 the Internet, and there was talk about Introspection Rundown
14 right off the bat, that you'd go, wait a minute, somebody
15 was going to do one of those without me knowing about it?
16 Kartuzinski, get him up here. You didn't do that?
17 A. Well, let me -- you have some -- I don't know why,
18 but this seems to be a very important point, the
19 Introspection Rundown. I don't know why. If she was or
20 wasn't, if that was his plan, so what? I mean, I don't
21 quite understand this.
22 Q. The only reason why I'm making it an important
23 point is because I'm sitting here dumbfounded that the head
24 cheese of the whole place didn't know what was going on with
25 a person that died in your hotel on a procedure that is very
Page 3197 Image
1 rare, not done that often, that you've just admitted being a
2 pretty big deal. I'm concerned about that.
3 A. Let me explain. I'm head of external affairs.
4 run things like -- and in that position, when I was
5 Commanding Officer of OSA, my job is external to the
6 organization, to run community affairs programs, various
7 community involvement, clean-ups on the beach,
8 Winter Wonderland sort of projects, outdoor concerts with
9 Chick Corea, immigration matters, legal. You know, if
10 there's a case that's ongoing, that would come under my
11 office, I'd be in liaison with our attorneys on that.
12 You just characterized me as I'm the head honcho
13 for the whole organization, wouldn't I know about that. In
14 my role, I guess you could argue I should have or shouldn't,
15 but that's not normally the traffic that would cross my
16 plate in any given day. Even on a situation like with --
17 okay, Lisa McPherson was an unusual case, but it wasn't like
18 there was some special significance if she was going to get
19 the Introspection Rundown or not. I didn't feel compelled
20 to go find out, my gosh, is she going to get the
21 Introspection Rundown? Why does it matter?
22 Q. When Channel 8 comes knocking on the door down
23 there and they stick a microphone in somebody's face, it's
24 always your mouth, the one that they get?
25 A. That's right. They never asked --
Page 3198 Image
1 Q. The assumption there, you're the spokesperson for
2 the Church that's supposed to know about this thing.
3 A. They never asked the question like that; If they
4 had asked the, question, we want to know if she had the
5 Introspection Rundown, okay, I'll find out. It might have
6 been some significance to me at that time to find out.
7 Q. Does it become significant at any time if that
8 procedure --
9 A. Correct, because if it was, I would have checked,
10 Hey, by the way, called up Alain on the phone, was there a
11 definite plan that she was going to get the
12 Introspection Rundown?
13 Q. So you've never done `that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You've never asked him?
16 A. I've never asked him that.
17 Q. And nobody told you it was the definitive plan?
18 A. Yeah, the definitive plan or the plan that she was
19 going to get the Introspection Rundown, I've never heard
20 that was the case.
21 Q. All right. After December 5th when she died, you
22 had to be concerned --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- as the head guy.
25 A. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Page 3199 Image
1 Q. What procedures did you implement at that time to
2 find out what the heck went on there?
3 A. I -- one of our concerns was -- well, one I talked
4 to, I tried, to Dr. Minkoff and eventually did reach him on
5 that night at the hospital. And asked him what
6 Q. You did a summary on that and you gave it to me,
8 A. Right.
9 To find out what had happened. And when he
10 mentioned she had had a severe infection -- she had had an
11 infection, and he didn't know what kind of infection it was,
12 and he mentioned possible -- he was thinking, because it
13 appeared to him at that time something fast-acting may have
14 been a problem, might have been a severe infection, he
15 mentioned meningitis --
16 Q. We'll get into that. You don't have to finish
17 what he was going to say.
18 A. That was my concern.
19 Q. After Minkoff, who else did you talk to?
20 A. I had -- I had somebody round up what, you know --
21 get some information from the different people involved, who
22 had been involved last couple of days or so.
23 Q. Who was that? Who was that?
24 A. Marcus.
25 Q. Quirino?
Page 3200 Image
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. To round up, especially the last couple of days,
4 what -- who had been in touch with Lisa, because of of --
5 Q. The infectious possibility?
6 A. Yeah, and to quarantine people.
7 Q. All right. And I've got those -- some of those
8 synopses. And you read those synopses yourself, correct?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. I looked them over. I don't know if I read every
12 single word, but I looked them over when they came in.
13 Q. You deal with the in-house and the outside lawyers
14 that represent the Church, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Who was the person that first contacted the
17 lawyer, any lawyer, in reference to -- I don't want to know
18 what any of the privileged conversations are, I just want to
19 know who is the person that contacted the first lawyer to be
20 involved in this Lisa McPherson situation?
21 A. I am not sure if one of my staff contacted
22 Bob Johnson, our attorney, that night. I'm not sure if he
23 actually got through to him or not. I think they tried.
24 They may have contacted him or not, I don't know. It was a
25 bit confusing that night.
Page 3201 Image
1 But the next morning, the 6th, morning of the 6th,
2 I called over to Bob Johnson in the morning when the police
3 had arrived to the Fort Harrison. And that's the first time
4 I know that Bob Johnson was contacted. I -- somebody may
5 have contacted him earlier that night.
6 Q. Okay. Did he get a briefing? I don't want to
7 know what the briefing was about. Did he get a briefing?
8 A. Well, I told him what was going on when I talked
9 to him.
10 Q. So you're the guy?
11 A. I'm not sure if I'm the very first person that
12 told him, but I called him that morning, the next morning,
13 morning of the 6th, and I told him what was going on, `cause
14 we had the -- the police arrive.
15 Q. Okay. And that was a prudent thing for you to do.
16 The police are involved --
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. -- you've got a death, you're worried about civil
19 litigation, criminal litigation, whatever happens, so you
20 get a lawyer involved, correct?
21 A. I wasn't thinking litigation, but I know the
22 attorney should be notified right away.
23 Q. All right. Was there an Internal Investigation
24 involving you or anybody that you know of that gathered
25 information, other than what you just told me about your
Page 3202 Image
1 meeting with Mr. Quirino, in reference to the death of
2 Lisa McPherson?
3 A. Well, there was -- I now know that there were --
4 there were records gathered -- well, an investigation?
5 Q. Would you call it that? Does the Church have an
6 implementation, for, hey, something bad happened, I want you
7 to find out this, I want all the reports, I want everything
8 gathered up and I want to know exactly what happened,
9 because this was ugly and it looks bad? Was that done?
10 A. I don't know of any formal investigation that was
12 Q. How about an informal one?
13 A. Well, I asked people what had happened. I mean, I
14 was trying to find out myself what had happened.
15 And then things took a pretty fast track because
16 early the next morning the police were already over there to
17 the Fort Harrison. And Bob Johnson eventually arrived. And
18 at that -- at that point Bob began, over some course of
19 time, to talk to different people in the Church as to what
20 happened. I mean, there was -- there was some investigation
21 that was done in the purview of our attorney, because he
22 interviewed different people that the police were interested
23 in talking to.
24 Q. Was one of those persons Alain Kartuzinski?
25 A. I'm sure it was.
Page 3203 Image
1 Q. But you didn't debrief Mr. Kartuzinski, you just
2 talked to Quirino and got his summations --
3 A. Right.
4 Q. -- read his summations?
5 A. Right.
6 Well, I talked to -- briefly I talked to
7 Janice Johnson that night too, `cause I talked to her when
8 she was at -- she called. I talked to her by phone when she
9 was at -- in New Port Richey.
10 Q. Okay. We've had some testimony from a lot of
11 these Security people, as well as a lot of these caretakers,
12 that if something were to be done in a decision making
13 fashion about Lisa McPherson, whether or not she wanted to
14 leave, she wanted to go for a swim in the pool, whether she
15 wanted to do anything, that Mr. Kartuzinski was the one that
16 was going to be the person that made that decision. Are you
17 aware of that?
18 A. Aware that they said that or aware that he would
19 be in that position?
20 Q. Aware that he would be in that position to make
21 the call.
22 A. I -- I mean, I -- I don't know how to answer that.
23 I don't know.
24 Q. Well, let me ask you two questions: First,
25 obviously, from that answer, you certainly weren't aware of
Page 3204 Image
1 it in the 17 days that she was staying at the hotel,
3 A. Right.
4 Q. All right. You're telling me now that you didn't
5 know that he was the one making the call and calling the
6 shots on Lisa McPherson's ability to come and go to this
8 A. I would say -- no, I mean, I -- that's consistent
9 with his role. He could -- he could make that decision.
10 But I was not -- I would say, yeah, that would be -- I would
11 agree with that, that he would be the one to make that
13 Q. Well, that's what I'm following up on.
14 A. But here's --
15 Q. I'm--
16 A. Let me clarify the reason. I'm hedging.
17 MR. POLLI: Stop. Let me have a couple
18 minutes out here so we don't spend the rest of the week
19 running around in circles like this.
20 MR. McGARRY: All right.
21 (Off the record.)
22 BY MR. McGARRY:
23 Q. All right. Do I need to ask the question again?
24 MR. POLLI: You can, if you'd like.
25 A. Go ahead.
Page 3205 Image
1 Q. Is there going to be a different response than we
2 had previously?
3 A. Well, shoot.
4 Q. Same question, the Alain Kartuzinski thing: It's
5 my knowledge now that I've gained from many people through
6 my investigation that he was in charge of her stay at the
7 hotel, called the shots, when she could leave, and got daily
8 reports of how she was doing. And it was going to be --
9 this was called an isolation watch in preparation for an
10 Introspection Rundown. Okay, that's what I've been told,
11 and through my investigation that's what I assume was going
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Now, my question to you is, have you gained that
15 same information that I did somewhere along in this last two
17 A. Yes, that's my understanding too. I agree with
18 that. I -- I didn't know until now that there was, as I
19 said, a definite plan that she was going to the
20 Introspection Rundown.
21 Q. Definitive plan?
22 A. Definitive plan or plan, but that Alain was in
23 charge and would call the shots on that.
24 Q. So now it's your understanding that he is the shot
25 caller in the stay for Lisa Mcpherson?
Page 3206 Image
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. As far as any of these people that I talked to, if
3 a caregiver or Security Guard or somebody had a question, he
4 would be the guy it would be directed to?
5 A. Right. Exactly.
6 Q. All right. So that's your understanding now?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. All right.
9 A. If that conflicts -- if that conflicts with what I
10 said earlier, this is my understanding, what I just said is
11 my understanding.
12 Q. Okay...
13 A. Okay. I mean, I may have --
14 Q. I think it does conflict with what you've said
16 MR. POLLI: We've straightened it out. We're
17 not confused with the 17-day thing, this is it.
18 A. We're not confused, right.
19 Q. I tried to ask it both ways, but I wanted to break
20 that down.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Your attorney mentioned that area with the change.
23 They've changed your post because of your lack of knowledge
24 about this occurring. Is that possible?
25 A. Well, there are many factors, because my -- my
Page 3207 Image
1 move from the Commanding Off icer post to the public
2 relations post, which is lower, happened many months after.
3 But it was -- I don't think it was a direct factor, but
4 it's -- it was symptomatic of --
5 Q. What were some of the other factors? It sounds
6 like you got busted down a notch.
7 A. Yeah, I did. Frankly, I did.
8 Q. I might as well ask a straight-out question: You
10 A. In essence, because I was not digging in and, you
11 know, being -- being the leader for the area, digging in on
12 various situations that needed addressing, and, you know,
13 thorough handling and competent handling, and it was my --
14 Q. This thing, this unfortunate tragedy, which you
15 can characterize it as that as well as anything --
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. -- that happened on your watch.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you're kind of telling me that during that 17
20 days she was there, you thought she was a guest at the hotel
21 enjoying the food and the --
22 MR. POLLI: Sun.
23 Q. -- sun and --
24 A. No. I knew more, but I didn't know -- I knew more
25 than that, because I was talking to Paul Kellerhaus, but I
Page 3208 Image
1 did have the idea that it was -- that it wasn't as severe as
2 what was happening.
3 I mean, I knew that she was -- Paul would tell me,
4 asked what's happening, sometimes she was sleeping,
5 sometimes she wasn't, sometimes she was eating, sometimes
6 she wasn't, she was cussing out people, she would punch her
7 hand to the walls, knock over lamps, took a swing at one of
8 the girls, I knew that.
9 It was more that I -- at that point, in
10 retrospect, I should have dug in, says -- I should have
11 asked, are there written reports, can I see them, can I see
12 what's actually going on, maybe talk to the people who are
13 staying with her. I did none of that and I should have.
14 Q. All right. Just might as well ask, since we're on
15 the subject here of your demotion, how does that happen?
16 Who makes that call? Who's the person that comes in and
17 says, you know, this wasn't handled right, so this is what's
18 going to occur? Who's that person? I want to know who that
19 person is.
20 A. There isn't any one person --
21 Q. Well, who's the bunch of people?
22 A. -- necessarily. The way it happens is, if it's
23 something on the severity of a post demotion, you know,
24 being -- being demoted, a Committee of Evidence, which is
25 what it's called --
Page 3209 Image
1 Q. We were going to get to that.
2 A. Well, yeah, that would be a normal procedure.
3 Q. Did that happen?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And that was in -- I forget exactly when that was.
9 That was sometime later.
10 Q. I would like to know who the people involved in
11 that committee are.
12 A. Now I can tell you who.
13 Q. Yeah, do you know?
14 A. Yeah, I remember. It was Linda --
15 Q. You're involved, right?
16 A. Yeah. Yeah.
17 Q. You were the focus of it.
18 A. Linda Nivaves was on the committee,
19 Batteny Henderson was on the committee, Pular Jason was on
20 the committee. And there was a fourth person, I forget who
21 that was.
22 Q. Okay. Do you get -- do you have representation in
23 this committee or do you represent yourself?
24 A. I represent myself.
25 Q. So you fend, for yourself?
Page 3210 Image
1 A. Pro se, I guess they call it.
2 Q. Pro se, exactly.
3 A. So, yeah. And the procedure is, and there's a
4 decision, that doesn't necessarily mean you will be removed,
5 but if there is enough evidence to show -- to warrant
6 removal and --
7 Q. I don't mean to cut you off, but if I don't ask
8 these in my little order, I'll get lost.
9 A. All right.
10 Q. And if you want to take a break, let me know,
11 we'll take a break.
12 Are these people local people or are they from
13 L.A. or somewhere, else?
14 A. They were local now. Couple are since in L.A.,
15 but local, yeah.
16 Q. Okay. Go ahead. You are going to talk about how
17 it works.
18 A. Well, they -- I mean, the way I was, the decision
19 was made looking at the whole scene, the way I was running
20 the office and so forth, that I wasn't running it well,
21 completely disrelated to -- in fact, Lisa McPherson didn't
22 even come up in that, it didn't come up.
23 Q. It wasn't a subject that was broached with the
25 A. It wasn't. I -- I don't recall it being broached.
Page 3211 Image
1 Q. I'm going to ask them. I'm going to talk to them
2 all and ask them.
3 A. That's fine, yeah. As I recall, that didn't come
4 up. There were other things on how -- you know,
5 administrative things on how I was administering the office.
6 But I told -- I told my attorney earlier that I
7 could see in retrospect that the way I was approaching the
8 post was too glibly, was too, you know --
9 Q. To bury it? . -
10 A. Yeah, sort --
11 Q. Public relations?
12 A. Yeah, exactly. And that led to my removal from
13 that post. That wasn't quite -- later on.
14 Q. Was there any Committee of Evidence that might
15 have occurred for Mr. Kartuzinski's removal from his post?
16 A. I don't know of one.
17 Q. If one would have occurred, you would have been in
18 a position to know about it better than any of these people,
20 A. I think so. I mean, if one had -- if one had
21 been -- if one had occurred and been issued, yeah, I would
22 probably known about it.
23 Q. But you don't know about one?
24 A. I don't know of one.
25 Q. Well, let's go back to that. Maybe one didn't
Page 3212 Image
1 need to be done. My understanding is he doesn't do the same
2 thing he used to do and that kind of coincided with his
3 slip-up with Lisa McPherson.
4 A. I don't know what the circumstances were. That
5 wouldn't necessarily mean a Committee of Evidence was held
6 if somebody -- a person were demoted. They don't
7' necessarily go together.
8 Q. What is his position now?
9 A. I think he's just -- I'm not sure what he's doing:
10 I know he was doing a study position. He was on full
11 time --
12 Q. He doesn't have a staff position?
13 A. I'm not sure what he's doing now.
14 Q. Who knows that?
15 A. I can find out.
16 Q. You're the head guy --
17 A. I work in Public Affairs. I don't know what Alain
18 is doing right now. We've got 800 Staff members over there.
19 I don't know what he's doing today.
20 Q. But he's not Senior Case Supervisor anymore?.
21 A. No, that's correct.
22 Q. Do you know when that change occurred?
23 A. Sometime last year, but I couldn't give you a
24 month or time of year. I think it was in the first half of
25 last year.
Page 3213 Image
1 Q. It would be fair to say though that during the
2 period of time from Lisa McPherson's death until certainly a
3 year following that, you've been the spokesperson for the
5 A. Yes
6 Q. And the Church designated you as that
7 spokesperson, correct?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You were the person that any time a public
10 announcement or public explanation, of something comes out,
11 you're the man that has to know that. So I mean, that's why
12 I ask these questions.
13 A. Right. Right, okay.
14 Q. I would think that if you're going to withstand
15 the attack of reporters, which is considerably worse than
16 me, I might add, that you would be able to field and handle
17 virtually every question that could be leveled at that
18 Church as far as procedure, Lisa McPherson, Lisa McPherson's
19 stay, who was in charge and why she was there. Would you
20 agree with that statement?
21 A. That's true. But in December our attorneys felt,
22 because it was now under -- it was a criminal matter that
23 was ongoing, that if there were any press statements, it
24 would be best if they fielded those kind of questions.
25 Q. And they took over that?
Page 3214 Image
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And that would be the attorneys of Weinberg,
3 Sandy Weinberg and --
4 A. In December of `96.
5 Q. That was before them. That would have been
6 Johnson and those guys?
7 A. Yeah. But there was no press inquiries until
8 December of'96.
9 Q. It was Abelson?
10 A. Elliott Abelson, right.
11 Q. He was here then?
12 A. I don't know if he was here. In and out. I don't
13 know if he was answering from here, or in Los Angeles. He
14 was based in L.A.
15 Q. So he took over some of the spokesperson duties
16 during some of that?
17 A. He took over all of them.
18 Q. All of them. To Mr. Weinberg's and Mr. Fugate's
19 chagrin, I'm sure.
20 So right around in there, that's when the Church
21 hired local counsel, Mr. Johnson, they went to this -- you
22 would know that?
23 A. Yeah, that would have been sometime early the next
24 year, in `97. I don't know exactly when it was, bit it was
25 sometime in early `97.
Page 3215 Image
1 Q. Whose decision was that --
2 A. Would have been somebody in -- above me in
3 Los Angeles.
4 Q. -- to hire local counsel?
5 A. Yeah, I'm sure Elliott would have been part of
6 that decision process.
7 Q. You weren't --
8 A. Because he wasn't here in -- I mean, makes
9 sense --
10 Q. You weren't part of that decision?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were you at a meeting that was called that had all
13 the higher-ups in it to make a decision on what to do?
14 A. If there was, I wasn't part of it. I wasn't -- I
15 don't know.
16 Q. Who would be part of it?
17 A. Well, Elliott would know.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. He would know what the decision was.
20 Q. But he's from L.A. I'm talking about somebody
21 from this hotel down here.
22 A. No, that's where the decision would have been
24 To hire other counsel?
25 Q. Yeah.
Page 3216 Image
1 A. Yeah, it would have been made in Los Angeles.
2 Q. For the record, whenever I ask you a question
3 about counsel and stuff, I don't want you to slip -- I'm not
4 trying to pry into any privileged conversations.
5 MR. POLLI: No, I'm ready to jump.
6 MR. McGARRY: You're ready to jump on me, I
8 Q. When I ask the questions, it's just when and where
9 and who and how, and not what was said.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. So you know.
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Well, who is the person that's dealing with
14 the lawyers from -- from the Church now? Who is the point
15 person from the Church dealing with the lawyers?
16 A. On this case?
17 Q. On this case.
18 A. Ben Shaw.
19 Q. Ben Shaw is?
20 A. Yeah, he's ...
21 Q. So Ben Shaw took over -- I've got to go back to my
22 notes now.
23 MR. McGARRY: Detective, did you write that
24 down? When did he take over, Ben Shaw?
25 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: He took over from
Page 3217 Image
2 A. From Humberto, earlier this year.
3 Q. He's now -- would you say he's the one that's most
4 up to speed on all of the Lisa `Mcpherson affairs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is he the guy?
7 A. I would say so.
8 Q. More than you?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Well, he wasn't even here during any of that.
11 A. That's true. Well, I mean, I -- I know what I
12 know from back then when I was here and he wasn't, but in,
13 terms of-- he's now the contact point working with the
14 attorneys as the civil case and the -- your investigation
15 goes forward.
16 Q. Okay. So you're telling me that guy, Ben Shaw, is
17 the guy that might be able to answer some questions about
18 documents and where they go and what the paper flow is?
19 Because I recently spent many hours interviewing a fellow
20 that was brought to me by the Church lawyers.
21 You know Glen, right?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. You've met Glen? -
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And he didn't have a lot -- I mean, he didn't have
Page 3218 Image
1 a lot of answers, and mainly because the guy's from L.A.,
2 and he was in charge of investigating where all these
3 documents went.
4 You know we're missing documents, correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I don't know, when you say "missing," if --
8 Q. Well, let me put it this way --
9 A. I know, yes.
10 Q. I don't want to play word games with you. And I'm
11 trying to be straight and blunt with all my questions with
12 the people that I interview so they know exactly where I'm
13 coming from so they can give me straight back answers.
14 A. Understood.
15 Q. I got a bunch of documents here that were provided
16 for me through subpoenas.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Then I think you've read some of these, you
19 indicated you read -- these are all caretakers' notes --
20 A. Right, I've read those.
21 Q. -- that I've gotten. You've probably seen these.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When did you see those? When is the first time
24 you ever saw that pile of paper?
25 A. It was roughly a couple months ago.
Page 3219 Image
1 Q. Well, this is August. That would have been --
2 A. Sometime in June, I would think.
3 Q. June?
4 A. Late June or so.
5 Q. The first time you.saw these things?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. All right. I got these pursuant to this subpoena
8 right here back in February. All right?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And somebody in your Church gathered them up and
11 gave them to the lawyer over here, Sandy's place over in
12 Tampa, Sandy Weinberg.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. My question is, who gathered them up?
15 A. I don't know who gathered them up.
16 Q. That's a tough question. Nobody seems to know the
17 answer to who gathered them up.
18 Who knows the answer to that? Does Ben Shaw know
19 the answer to that?
20 A. I don't know. I would -- I would think --
21 Q. Simplest question in the world.
22 A. I would think that would be a simple question to
24 Q. You would think.
25 A. Yeah.
Page 3220 Image
1 I don't know who gathered them up. I saw them in,
2 I guess it was late June, roughly. You know, it was some
3 weeks ago, but fairly recently. That was when I first read
5 Q. Well, see, you know where we're going with all
6 this. You know why I have these questions on this area.
7 A. I can -- I can guess.
8 Q. Yeah. We're missing a bunch of stuff.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And that's what we're kind of --
11 A. The last couple of days.
12 Q. Right.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Well, actually, we're missing some spotty ones
15 throughout and then certainly the last few days.
16 But I have -- how many guys did I come up with?
17 They're on a list here with --
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: 11 or 12.
19 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: 11 or 12.
20 Q. 11 or 12 reports that people -- I didn't even
21 count the ones that people said -- like the last fellow we
22 just interviewed, he's a Security guy, Mr. Toth, he wasn't
23 sure, so I don't but that down as "reports existed"
24 category, okay? I don't count that.
25 A. Right.
Page 3221 Image
1 Q. The ones that I put down as "reports existed"
2 category are the people that say, yeah, I remember that day,
3 I wrote a report, stuck in the basket, gave it to so and so,
4 gave it to Lacy Spencer, I gave it to, you know, Kellerhaus,
5 whatever. Those I put down as missing reports because
6 somebody said they did one.
7 A. Right. -
8 Q. Well; I would think they'd be included with those
9 and they're not. So I'm kind of doing a little -
10 investigation as to where those reports are.
13 And my question is, who gathered up all those
12 reports and gave them to the lawyers? And you're the head
13 guy, I would think maybe you would know the answer to that.
14 A. Well, I've been in Public Affairs since the first
15 part of last year, May, June last year.
16 Q. I know, but --
17 A. It wouldn't have been -- - the request wouldn't have
18 been put to me in Public Affairs to round up these documents
20 Q. Well, this is a subpoena. I subpoenaed them now.
21 So who would have been in charge of rounding up the
22 documents in February of `97? Who is that person? Who
23 might it be?
24 A. I would have guessed -- I would say Glen Steilo.
25 Q. No, wasn't Glen Steilo. He says no. He's a
Page 3222 Image
1 California guy.
2 A. I don't know who would have gathered them up.
3 I'm kind of missing something here. You put in a
4 request to have these produced?
5 Q. Yeah. That's a subpoena.
6 A. So it went to our attorneys? To the Church?
7 Q. To the attorneys.
8 A. And somebody would have gathered them up?
9 Q. Well, yeah. The attorneys aren't allowed in your
11 A. I see your point.
12 I don't know who gathered them up.
13 Q. Well, who do I ask to find out the answer?
14 A. Well, Glen would be the one to ask.
15 Q. Glen doesn't know the answer to the question.
16 A. Somebody gathered them up, `cause they're gathered
18 Q. They're all gathered up.
19 A. I don't know. I don't know who.
20 Q. All right. These things were all sent, according
21 to Glen, to California, maybe once, if not more, various
22 folders, PC folders, ethics folders and stuff. For some
23 reason they sent them to California. Are you aware of that?
24 A. Not aware of that. Wouldn't surprise me.
25 Q. Sometime, and I don't even know the time --
Page 3223 Image
3. MR. McGARRY: You know the time frame, Wayne.
2 When was that? They said they sent them over after the
3 death sometime to California.
4 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No, but
5 Kellerhaus indicates these reports here were delivered
6 to your office, which you were in charge at that time;
7 OSA, okay, and they were given to Judy or Brian. And
8 Judy would have been Judy Fontana and Brian would have
9' been Brian Anderson. Those reports.
10 THE WITNESS: These reports?
11 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You're in charge
12 then. That's right after this thing happened.
13 Kellerhaus gathered them up from Kartuzinski and
14 brought them to OSA.
15 THE WITNESS: Correct me, excuse me, someone
16 said that they gathered up these reports and gave these
17 reports to me?
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah.
19 THE WITNESS: Definitely to me?
20 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: And that's
21 Paul Kellerhaus.
22 MR. POLLI: We're not talking about the
23 interview on December 5th reports that got handed to
24 him by Marcus Quirino?
25 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: No, the entire
Page 3224 Image
1 file. Kellerhaus had to go back to Kartuzinski and --
2 and get them and he delivered them to the office of
3 OSA, which at that time he delivered them you were the
4 boss, and he gave them to Judy or Brian.
5 THE WITNESS: He said Judy or Brian?
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: You were the
8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall getting these
9 reports. And I surely didn't read these reports at
10 that time. So if they were brought over there --
11 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Would you have
12 sent them automatically to Los Angeles?
13 THE WITNESS: I don't even remember getting
14 them, you're asking me what I did.
15 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I mean, if those
16 reports came to you, and we have them coming to OSA.
17 MR. McGARRY: He can't answer that `cause he
18 didn't get them, he says he didn't get them.
19 BY MR. McGARRY:
20 Q. Let me ask you this: Who knows the answer to all
21 these questions?
22 A. Well, I would have -- you said Glen didn't know.
23 I would have said Glen.
24 Q. Glen doesn't know. Glen doesn't know how they got
25 to California.
Page 3225 Image
1 A. I don't know either.
2 Q. Well, there's some missing people here.
3 A. I'm -- I'm -- I don't know.
4 Q. I've gone all the way to the top, and you don't
5 know the answer.
6 A. That's -- that's correct. I don't know. I'm
7 trying to think what could have happened.
8 I mean, I'd be conjecturing. I don't remember
9 getting these reports. I surely don't remember sending them
10 anywhere, `cause I don't remember, even having them, these
11 reports here, could we call them caretaker reports, these
12 daily reports. So where they'went, I don't know. And who
13 sent them where, I don't know.
14 If you say they arrived in L.A. --
15 Q. Well, that's what Glen said. He said that PC
16 folder, which is where these were placed, according to Glen,
17 went to L.A. --
18 A. Right.
19 Q. -- after she died. I don't know why that would
20 have happened.
21 MR. McGARRY: We've got a long way to go. Do
22 you want to take a lunch break?
23 (Off the record.)
24 MR. McGARRY: We're going to go back on the
Page 3226 Image
1 BY MR. McGARRY:
2 Q. One more time, since we've left, you don't know
3 who I need to ask for the answer to that question about
4 those records? I want to know who from the Church gathered
5 the records to give to the lawyer to give to me.
6 A. I would have thought Glen Steilo would, but you
7 already said that he didn't.
8 Q. Glen Steilo did not.
9 A. So I don't know.
10 Q. Any other possibilities?
11 A. Well --
12 Q. Who else was in charge over there?
13 A. I've already said Ben was the one who -- Ben Shaw.
14 Q. No, this was in February. He wasn't around in
16 A. Oh, in February.
17 Q. That's when I got these. Who was in charge in
18 February? You said Humberto Fontana?
19 A. I forget which month. I thought maybe Ben was in
20 February. If it wasn't Ben, it would be Humberto.
21 Q. So he would know?
22 A. He could possibly know.
23 Q. Do you have a Custodian of Records that is your
24 local Custodian of Records that you can ask questions of?
25 A. Well, that's who I thought Glen was.
Page 3227 Image
1 Q. He's from California. I'm talking about somebody
2 in your building that you guys keep running around there
3 that is the records custodian. Do you have somebody like
5 A. Not -- no, not that I'm aware of.
6 Q. Carol Oaks, do you know her?
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Who is she?
9 A. Yes. She's a woman in Los Angeles, works in the
10 Office of Special Affairs in Los Angeles.
11 Q. You ever talk to her about this case?
12 A. Never.
13 Q. Nothing about Lisa McPherson.
14 Did you ever talk to her, period?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Ken Long, do you know him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who's he?
19 A. Works in the Legal Department at -- in the
20 Office of Special Affairs in Los Angeles.
21 Q. Ever talk to him about this case?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Steve Harlan, do you know him?
24 A. Steve Harlan, yes.
25 Q. Who's he?
Page 3228 Image
1 A. He's a Staff member here at the Church locally.
2 Q. What does he do?
3 A. He's in -- I believe his function is to maintain
5 Q. PC folders?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. Is he still doing that?
8 A. I think so.
9 Q. So all he does is maintain PC-folders. That's a
10 great job. What does that involve?
11 A. I don't know what his job involves. I mean,
12 probably if they're called for, he'll go like to a warehouse
13 sort of --
14 Q. Who knows what he does if I call him --
15 A. Steve Harlan would.
16 Q. Who's his supervisor?
17 A. I don't know who his Senior is.
18 Q. But he's in charge of PC folders?
19 A. I think he's --
20 Q. So he might know the answer to this PC folder and
21 who gathered it up and who gave the stuff to the lawyers?
22 A. Possibly.
23 Q. Was there ever a Committee of Evidence done for
24 Janet Johnson -- Janice Johnson, excuse me?
25 A. Not that I'm aware of.
Page 3229 Image
1 Q. Are records ever destroyed as far as your
2 knowledge is concerned in the -- within the Church?
3 A. Are records ever des~royed? -
4 Q. Yeah. How long do you keep them?
5 A. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule.
6 think it would depend on what -- what the piece of paper is,
7 if it's kept.
8 Q. Well, Hubbard's got all kinds of rules about
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Hubbard's tech is filled with rules on Com,
13 A. Not in this regard. What's maintained, what
14 isn't, I think it's -- depends on what you're talking about,
15 like what kind of records.
16 Q. Let's talk about these records right here. Are
17 they ever destroyed?'
18 A. I think if there was a -- if something like this
19 was written up and put in a person's PC folder, I don't
20 think it would be destroyed, I think it would be kept in the
21 PC folder.
22 Q. So there wouldn't be any reason to destroy any
23 records from a PC folder?
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. Did you do anything in reference to Steilo's'
Page 3230 Image
1 investigation or the Church's investigation involving the
2 reports that I've' indicated to you that we are lacking?
3 A. The reports you indicated to me were lacking were
4 the ones -- these caretaker reports?
5 Q. Right.
6 A. Did I do anything in regard to trying to find them
7 or --
8 Q. Yeah. Yeah,. That's my question.
9 A. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Are you aware of anybody in the Church that has
11 done anything besides Mr. Steilo?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Were you aware that I subpoenaed also from the,
14 Church the records that were allegedly made by
15 Janice Johnson, Mr. Greenwood and Laura Arranado immediately
16 following taking Lisa up to New Port Richey?
17 They were required by a Security Guard, according
18 to Mr. Greenwood, to write down their observations and the
19 events of the day that transpired. Are you aware of those
20 reports being asked to be created?
21 A. I'm aware that various subpoenas have come in at
22 times, but on specific, no, I don't know what you asked for.
23 Q. All right. You prepared --
24 A. I mean, it wouldn't have come across my desk.
25 Q. You prepared for this interview with your
Page 3231 Image
1 attorney, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I mean, he discussed your knowledge of the case --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- and you discussed it with him?
6 Have you had any sit-downs or conversations, not
7 what they were, but have you had any sit-downs in
8 preparation for an interview with the other lawyers, Sandy
9 and Lee Fugate and those lawyers?
10 MR. POLLI: I don't understand.
11 A. In preparation for this interview?
12 Q. In preparation for anything. I mean, do they tell
13 you, hey, look, we just got some subpoenas from the
14 State Attorney's Office, you know, we need this?
15 A. There was one meeting I had with Sandy Weinberg
16 and Laura Vaughan some months ago.
17 MR. McGARRY: No, not them.
18 MR. POLLI: No, I don't think that you can be
19 telling them --
20 Q. No, I don't want to know what the meeting was
21 about, I don't want to know that. I want to know, who are
22 they? Who are the lawyers? I send the subpoenas to them
23 because they designated themselves as the recipient for --
24 it's made it convenient for me, but, quite frankly, it
25 doesn't give me many answers as to who they have to deal
Page 3232 Image
2 When I send them a subpoena over there in Tampa
3 and I ask them for documents, who's the person that gets the
4 documents and gets them for them? Do they call on you, or
5 do they call on somebody else?
6 A. Somebody else, I assume. I don't know. If the
7 attorney came in tomorrow, say Lee Fugate or --
8 Q. Who?
9 A. Would probably go to Ben, might go to Glen. It
10 doesn't cross my plate. -
11 Q. It's not there on your plate?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So one of those two guys is gathering up evidence
14 that I've requested to give to the lawyers to give to me.
15 Is that the way it goes?
16 A. I would think so. I would think. And if there
17 was some other area in the organization that it dealt
18 with -- but I think the contact one would be Ben or Glen
19 from the attorneys, I don't know of any other contact point.
20 Q. So you're not aware who the contact point was
21 prior to Ben and Glen getting involved in this, which is
22 kind of late in this whole ball game, my understanding,
23 right? They haven't been there that long?
24 A. Yeah, that -- I'm just trying to remember back
25 timewise. I mean, all I can tell you is that the
Page 3233 Image
1 predecessor for Ben was Humberto Fontana, and I would assume
2 it would come to him. But I don't know of any subpoena
3 coming to Humberto. I don't know who this subpoena went to.
4 Q. Well, that went to the lawyers.
5 A. Well, you're asking who it went to in the
7 Q. Yeah, that's my question.
8 A. I mean, who the request was relayed to?
9 Q. Right.
10 A. I would -- I would think -- I mean, I don't know.
11 But it seems like a simple question. Couldn't you just ask
12 the attorneys and they -- they can't -- won't tell you?
13 Q. I tried that.
14 A. Well, okay. Well, I don't know who it went to.
15 Q. All right. Let's go on to some other subject
17 You had -- you mentioned you had a phone call to
18 Dr. Minkoff the night of Lisa's death?
19 A. That's right. That's right. -
20 Q. Okay. How did you know Lisa was up there?
21 A. Because Arthur Baxter -- Arthur Baxter called me.
22 Q. And told you what?
23 A. That Lisa had been taken to the hospital and had
25 Q. All right. And he obviously told you which
Page 3234 Image
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. How did you know to call Dr. Minkoff?
4 A. I told Arthur -- I said who -- I asked him or he
5 told me that Janice Johnson was up there. I said, Have her
6 call me. And sometime after she called me. And I asked her
7 what was going -- what happened, and she ran down what
9 Q. Okay. She called you?
10 A. Yes. As I -- yeah, `cause I didn't have the
11 number for the hospital at the time.
12 Q. All right. Do you remember what time that was?
13 A. Well, it was late. I think it was after ten
14 o'clock. Sometime between 10:00 and 12:00. I don't know, I
15 don't know exactly. It was late. Might have been before
16 10:00, but it was around that time of night. And then I
17 called, and Janice gave me what she know. And then I asked,
18 you know, when she explained what happened --
19 Q. Let's start with that. That sounds good. What
20 did she tell you she knew?
21 A. She told me that she had driven Lisa to the
22 hospital and that she wasn't sure exactly what had happened.
23 She said -- she said when -- she told how they drove up to
24 the hospital, they called for some staff to come out and
25 help them, there was some confusion there, then they went
Page 3235 Image
1 into the hospital in the emergency area and then she didn't
2 know what was -- what, you know, physically was happening,
3 but just said she took her to the doctors and the doctors
4 couldn't revive her and pronounced her dead. And I asked
5 who was the doctor, and she said Dr. Minkoff.
6 Q. Have you ever met Dr. Minkoff before?
7 A. Before then? I don't recall ever meeting him
8 before then.
9 Q. Were you aware that he was a member of your
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That he's OT-VIII?
13 A. Yes. Yeah.
14 Q. So you knew him, you knew he was an OT-VIII, but
15 you don't know if you met him. Is that accurate?
16 A. I -- yeah, I'm almost certain I did not meet him
17 before then. We may have talked over the phone once or
18 twice. I'd met his wife, but I don't recall meeting him.
19 Q. Okay. So how does the conversation with him come
21 A. Well, then I asked her -- I don't think I knew
22 Minkoff was involved at New Port Richey. That's `cause I
23 asked who the doctor was and she told me Minkoff.
24 Q. Was your curiosity aroused when Baxter said, We
25 just took Lisa up to New Port Richey and she died, you know
Page 3236 Image
1 we got a hospital right across the street?
2 A. I was shocked that it happened. I wasn't then
3 thinking, where did you go, why did you go there, I was
4 trying to find out what happened.
5 Q. You weren't aware of the connection, at that point
6 in the phone conversation that she was taken there because
7 Minkoff was there?
8 A. Exactly. I just knew at that point in time -- I
9 knew she was taken to the hospital at that point in time. I
10 had been in town about a year at that point, I wasn't sure
11 where New Port Richey was. I knew it was north of here, but
12 I didn't know how long it would take to drive there.
13 Q. Who made the call to take her to New Port Richey?
14 A. My understanding, it was Janice's call. My
15 understanding, it was Janice's call.
16 Q. All right. And you gained that information how,
17 talking to her, talking to Minkoff?
18 A. Talking to Janice.
19 Q. Let's go back to Minkoff's conversation that you
20 had. Did she put the phone to him or did he call you, call
21 you back?
22 A. He called me. And it was some -- sometime later.
23 But he called, and I asked him what happened.
24 And he said that they had brought her in, he told
25 me they tried to revive her, spending maybe 15, 20 minutes
Page 3237 Image
1 trying to revive her and couldn't, and then had pronounced
2 her dead. He told me that she looked very septic or looked
3 septic and that he was concerned that she had some kind of
4 infection, was either had or was going to take a blood
5 sample to -- to do a culture on what kind of infection it
7 And then I forget if I asked what she died from.
8 He didn't -- he didn't know. But he was concerned about the
9 infection. He said he was concerned about -- he said maybe
10 it's -- it could be something like meningitis, `cause he
11 thought it had to have been something that was very
12 fast-acting. And he said that -- and I knew -- I'd read in
13 the paper earlier it had been some cases of meningitis down
14 in Largo or somewhere near Largo, I remember reading about
15 it in the paper.
16 When he said meningitis, that kind of freaked me
17 out a bit. But anyway, he said, I don't know if it's
18 meningitis, but it's always possible. We talked once or
19 twice, I forget if he called me once or called me twice, but
20 we. talked about that. And I said, what -- what does that
21 mean for us here? Because she was staying at the
22 Fort Harrison and a lot of people are in the Fort Harrison.
23 And he said, You should -- he said, I don't know that she
24 had meningitis, but it wouldn't hurt to take -- assume that
25 that may be the case and --
Page 3238 Image
1 Q. He used the word "meningitis" to you?
2 A. Yeah, as I -- the details would be in my write-up,
3 but I think he had -- I think he was the one that said
5 Q. I'm looking at your write-up. When do you do
6 that, memorialize that conversation?
7 A. Later that night.
8 Q. And this is, to the best of your recollection, the
9 conversation that occurred?
10 A. Yeah.
11 I think that was he -- I'd have to reread that to
12 myself if he said meningitis. It may have been Janice that
13 said meningitis. But as I recall, it was in that -- in that
14 period of time when I was tryin --
15 Q. Your word here is, he said that he thinks she may
16 have had meningitis.
17 A.' Oh, okay, then it was.
18 Q. So that "he" was Minkoff --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- that said that?
21 A. Yeah. That agrees with my recollection, yeah.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And then --
24 Q. It's also your recollection, I'm reading from your
25 report here, that Minkoff told Janice, and this is in the
Page 3239 Image
1 conversation he had with her before Lisa got there, I guess,
2 that it would be better to get her to the hospital and that
3 she should bring Lisa to see him, right?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. All right. And you mentioned in here too a title
6 that I'm not familiar with, Minkoff spoke to the
7 Nursing Manager at the hospital and she tried calling the
8 phone number of Lisa's apartment in Clearwater to get her
9 roommate to get data on Lisa, but there--was no answer.
10 Who was the Nursing Manager? What title was that?
11 A. I don't know. I don't recall.
12 Q. Nursing Manager, that sounds like an MLO or
14 A. No, I'm talking -- I'm referring to the hospital
16 Q. Oh.
17 A. I'm referring to the hospital staff.
18 Q. I see. His nursing --
19 A. I mean the nurse on duty.
20 Q. Oh, his Nursing Manager, not your place?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. I see what you're saying.
23 Okay. There's one other paragraph that really
24 concerned me a little bit. You noted that, "He stated that
25 even if she had been brought to another hospital in the
Page 3240 Image
1 area, i.e., closer to FH"
2 Which is your hotel, right?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. -- "he felt she still would have died."
5 You memorialize that. I find that odd.
6 A. Yeah, well, whatever I said I said.
7 Q. Well, this is your paragraph right here.
8 Right there. (Indicating)
9 A. Yeah, okay.
10 Q. Now, you remember him saying that, she would have
11 not made it no matter what hospital she would have been
12 taken to?
13 A. I remember that now', that's right, yeah.
14 Q. And you memorialized this, you have a date on here
15 December 5th, which is that night?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. That would have been late that night, I assume?
18 A. Yep.
19 Q. All right. Who typed this?
20 A. Me.
21 Q. Okay. And you met with Quirino when in
22 relationship to this?
23 A. Well, it was sometime -- it was sometime that
25 With Marcus?
Page 3241 Image
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Sometime that night.
3 Q. All right. And the purpose of that meeting was
5 A. He was gathering up information who had been in
6 contact with Lisa, like specially over the last couple of
7 days, for purposes of knowing who had been -- in case this
8 was meningitis, and we'd have some way of mapping who had
9 been in touch with her and quarantining them until we know
10 that it was or wasn't.
11 Q. And did he get some reports, have these people
12 write reports for him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And did you ever see those reports?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You saw the, summary of those reports, you didn't
17 see the reports?
18 A. I saw the reports and the summary.
19 Q. You did?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. You saw the reports, the handwritten reports?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. That's good. We're making some
24 progress here, because I ain't seen them and I'd like to see
Page 3242 Image
1 A. I don't have them now. I kept the summary, but I
2 didn't keep the reports.
3 Q. Well, I don't have them either. I've got the
4 summaries here --
5 A. Right.
6 Q. -- which have been provided.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. But I'd like to see the handwritten ones you guys
9 got. And you've got them?
10 A. I can tell you what happened. It was a very
11 confusing night, but I remember coming -- Marcus coming to
12 the office, I forget if he gave them to me directly, a
13 summary he typed up, I assume he typed it up, gave me a
14 summary and the handwritten --
15 Q. Is this the same typewriter you typed your report
16 up on?
17 A. I forget. It might be similar. That wasn't a
18 typewriter, it was on my computer, a PC.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. And then -- but I didn't keep them. I -- I -- I
21 saw the handwritten notes, gave a cursory look to see if the
22 summary -- see if they matched and matched, and I threw the
23 handwritten reports in my shred basket, and I had the
24 report, kept the report.
25 Q. See, that goes right back to that question I asked
Page 3243 Image
1 about shredding documents.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Here you've shredded documents in relationship to
4 the Lisa McPherson case.
5 A. Yeah. I mean, exactly depends what -- if I had
6 something that should stay like in a PC folder or something,
7 if I found something in a PC folder, I wouldn't take it out
8 and shred it, `cause it's there, it's there for a reason.
9 Q. Wait a minute. The documents you shredded are the
10 exact same thing that those are, observations that the
11 caretakers made of Lisa McPherson. The exact same thing.
12 A. Can I clarify something? Aren't -- weren't these
13 taken out of the PC folder? Isn't that my understanding? I
14 mean, that's my understanding. -
15 Q. You tell me. I'm not in charge over there.
16 A. I don't know. I don't know, `cause I didn't --
17 all I -- on these documents, on that night, after I talked
18 to Dr. Minkoff, I had this concern of meningitis or maybe
19 some -- even if it wasn't meningitis, it might have been
20 some other type infection, `cause he said she had some type
21 of infection.
22 So Marcus rounded up people who had been in touch
23 with her the last couple of days. And that's that summary
24 report. And he handed that and, you know, was maybe a small
25 number of reports, but the summary report and the
Page 3244 Image
1 handwritten reports. And I saw the summary, looked through
2 the summary, I see it matches what -- it was just a summary
3 of these other reports, so it's a duplication.
4 Q. Well, it's a summary.
5 A. Well, I thought it was -- okay, to me it was the
6 same information. So I didn't see any reason --
7 Q. I asked him about that, okay? So I know what he
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. He said --
11 A. I'm telling you what my thinking is. He wasn't
12 there when I took a look at the summary, took a look at the
13 reports, go, Oh, okay, well, it matches. I mean, I
14 didn't -- it was like maybe a couple, looking through these,
15 Yeah, it matches. Yeah, good, I wasn't confusing these with
16 some other papers on my desk. I go, What is this? Okay, it,
17 matches what's in this summary. And I put these in my
18 shredding -- it's a duplicate. To me it was -- it was a
19 duplication of what was here in this summary, so -- and this
20 is a lot neater, so I kept that summary and that served my
21 purposes. I didn't think of, like, keeping both. Why? It
22 was the same thing. So --
23 Q. So you shredded the documents?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And that was --
Page 3245 Image
1 A. Threw them in the shred basket. I mean, I didn't
2 shred them right then. It was either -- you know, maybe a
3 couple days later the shredding was done. But I had a
5 Q. You might be interested to know, this is the first
6 I've heard of shredding documents in this case, except for
7 Lacy Spencer.
8 MR. POLLI: Second time, right.
9 A. Yeah, okay. I'm not surprised at that. I mean, I
10 didn't -- only time I shredded anything.
11 Q. Well, Quirino didn't know you did that.
12 A. Okay. He wouldn't -- he probably wouldn't know.
13 Q. And Glen Steilo didn't know you did that. And
14 again, Steilo is in charge of trying to figure out where all
15 these documents ran off to.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Did he ever talk to you, Mr. Steilo?
18 A. He -- in terms of document collection and so
20 Q. Yeah, document collection.
21 A. Yeah, one time he asked me to give him all my
22 files that I had on Lisa McPherson.
23 Q. And you did that?
24 A. Yeah. He didn't talk to me,about --
25 Q. Let's talk about that. What files did you give
Page 3246 Image
2 A. I had a couple files on -- press files. I gave
3 him a couple -- I gave him two files to -- and that's all I
4 had on Lisa McPherson. And it was a collection of press
5 articles and maybe some statements that we issued to the
6 press. But it was a collection of press -- press articles
7 that had come out and statements that we had given to the
9 Q. All right. So it wasn't anything in reference to
10 anything that was derived from any of the caretakers or the
11 PC folder or any -- any material stuff, it was stuff that
12 was generated from the press that you gave him?
13 A. Yeah, that's my recollection.
14 Q. Did he ask you about the documents that were the
15 basis for the summary that Mr. Quirino gave us here?
16 A. No, he didn't.
17 Q. Did you offer to tell him that those, documents
18 existed at one time and don't anymore?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Have you ever mentioned that to anybody
21 other than me right now?
22 A. To Bob.
23 Q. Okay. Now, would that have been you personally
24 that shredded those documents or would that have been a
25 helper, an assistant?
Page 3247 Image
1 A. I don't recall. I mean, it might have been me.
2 I -- I didn't always do my own shred. Sometimes in a couple
3 of days some of my staff might just come around and scoop up
4 the shredding, just shred it. So -- and I don't recall. I
5 didn't shred them then. I remember physically just putting
6 them in the basket, and then I may have done it, somebody
7 else may have done it a couple days later.
8 Q. Did Mr. Quirino say why he made a summary of those
9 documents rather than just give you the, actual documents?
10 A. If he did, I don't remember. I mean, it was --
11 this is a busy time, it's late at night, you know, I don't
12 recall him saying anything like that.
13 Q. Did Mr. Quirino tell you that he didn't summarize
14 all the documents, just some of them?
15 A. I don't recall him saying that.
16 Q. Is that a possibility?
17 A. Well, it's a possibility, but I don't recall him
18 saying anything like that.
19 Q. Is it a possibility that there could have existed
20 several other documents from other caretakers that didn't
21 get summarized that managed to make it to the shredder? Is
22 that a possibility?
23 A. I don't think so. As I recall -- let me think.
24 Q. Before we go forward, before you answer that, he's
25 only summarized, out of maybe 20 caretakers I have summaries
Page 3248 Image
1 of --
2 A. Wait. Are you comparing that to this?
3 Q. No.
4 A. Oh, okay.
5 Q. I'm just telling you, he talked to all those -- a
6 lot of those people and I have one paragraph for -- one tiny
7 paragraph for some of these people, nine or ten of them,
8 short summaries. Is there a possibility that some of the
9 other summaries weren't -- excuse me, some of the other
10 documents weren't summarized that might have inadvertently
11 made it to the shredder?
12 A. I don't think so, because my concept that night
13 when that -- my concept was, okay -- I mean, I don't know
14 where I got this concept, but my concept was, he had talked
15 to everybody that needed to be talked to and summarized this
16 in his report in terms of who had had recent contact with
17 her, in terms of like over the last couple of days or so.
18 Again, my interest is on this meningitis possibility.
19 And I remember when I had the summary, I had the
20 concept, right or. wrong -- I mean, I don't know what Marcus
21 has told you -- I had the concept when I got this report,
22 okay, this summarizes who's had contact with her recently,
23 so I had the idea it was complete.
24 MR. POLLI: What he's asking, if there's ten
25 names on that summary, could there have been 15
Page 3249 Image
1 reports, you just flipped through it and took the 15
3 A. Well, anything's possible. I'm telling you my
4 understanding is that I did a quick flip-through, and as I
5 recall the summary, matched the handwritten reports that
6 were there.
7 Q. But it was a quick look-through?
8 A. Yeah, it was a quick look-through. I didn't do a
9 line by line ... -
10 Q. Okay. Just a couple seconds on this topic:
11 Document shredding, I didn't think, was a thing that the
12 Church practiced, especially when you're dealing with items
13 that go into people's PC folders. I mean, I am certainly
14 not near as knowledgeable in the techs of Hubbard and the
15 Church of Scientology as you are, clearly, and you've been
16 since `70s studying this stuff, but I, in my brief
17 investigation of this case and from the techs I've read from
18 Mr. Hubbard, is that you don't destroy documents involving
19 ethics and PC and PC folders and auditing and any of that
20 stuff, it doesn't get destroyed.
21 A. Well, there's a lot -- that's true in -- yeah, I
22 mean --
23 Q. Is that geherally true?
24 A. Yeah, I would say it's generally true. But it
25 depends on what it is if someone wants to shred it or not.
Page 3250 Image
1 If it's something
2 Q. That's the written word. The written word is what
3 I'm talking about. The written word has now been destroyed.
4 A. I understand.
5 If I write -- if I write a memo to, you know, my
6 attorney, and I have two copies of it, I'll shred the extra
7 copy, I'll just throw it in my shred basket.
8 Q. Well, if that's an identical copy, I understand
9 what you're saying. This is a summary, this is somebody
10 else's version of what somebody else wrote down.
11 A. I mean, yeah, but that's my rationale. When I
12 go -- I wasn't even thinking. It wasn't like, oh, I better
13 shred this, it was like --
14 Q. Okay. Did this topic come up in your
15 Committee of Evidence?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could it have?
18 A. Could it have? Well, I suppose anything could
20 You mean with me not retaining it?
21 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Would this have been
22 an issue with the Church or not?
23 A. "This" meaning this -- me shredding those
25 Q. Yes.
Page 3251 Image
I A. No, not at all.
2 Q. Not at all?
3 A. Not at all.
4 Q. Well, the reason why I ask that is becaus
5 Lacy Spencer, who is also represented by your attorney,
6 indicated that she inadvertently may have shredded or
7 prepared to be shredded a couple documents that happened to
8 be caretaker notes as well. I don't know if you're aware of
9 that. Are you aware of that?
10 A. I'm not aware of that, no.
11 Q. And she was straightened out immediately by --
12 MR. POLLI: Alain.
13 Q. -- Alain Kartuzinski.
14 MR. POLLI: I built a Chinese Wall with my
16 A. There isn't -- in my book there's a distinction
17 there. If you are taking something that maybe should go
18 into a PC folder, you wouldn't shred it because it's
19 valuable information that should be in the folder.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. To me, when I -- on these documents here, I
22 have -- okay, this is the summary, but to me it was an
23 accurate rendition of what these reports said. And as I
24 recall, it was -- I must have looked through it long enough
25 to -- I definitely had the concept that everything that was
Page 3252 Image
1 here was here in the written copy -- in the typed copy, I
2 mean, the typed copy.
3 Q. It was still somebody else's summation of what
4 somebody else wrote.
5 A. Yeah, but to me it seemed pretty accurate and why
6 keep two things -- I'm thinking, why keep two things of the
7 same --
8 Q. Bottom line question: It wasn't the original
9 author, it was somebody else. If I did a book report --
10 A. But my -- okay.
11 Q. -- it would be my book report, it would be my
12 observations of what I read in the book, it wouldn't be the
14 A. Okay. But this isn't some kind of lab experiment
15 where I need to keep my original notes. To me I'm going,
16 Who do we need to quarantine? Good. And he's got a little
17 summary there that would suffice in terms of explaining how
18 much contact they had, because that's -- I'm looking at, do
19 we need to quarantine -- who do we need to quarantine? And
20 there's enough informatipn down there to go, What was their
21 degree of contact with Lisa? And as I recall, everything
22 here was reflected here.
23 You keep characterizing it as a summary. When I
24 looked at this --
25 Q. Well, I'm using --
Page 3253 Image
1 A. It is a summary, but it looked like an accurate
2 rendition. To me it looked like a total copy, let me shred
4 Let me go one step over. You're wondering why I
5 shredded those. Well, if I was intentionally trying to
6 shred something, let me just be candid, I would have shred
7 this too, this summary. That concept didn't enter into
9 Q. Not if this summary was less harmful to your
10 position than the actual notes. You understand my
11 suspicions there. You understand how I can have a
13 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
14 Q. I'm getting --
15 A. Absolutely.
16 Q. -- a supervisor's summary as opposed to the
17 minions that actually wrote it.
18 A. I understand. And I can appreciate that in
19 retrospect, because now I've read these and I've seen
20 questions come up, at least from the media, on what happened
21 to these last two days, you know, the most important. I
22 don't know. And I can see your -- where you're coming from.
23 But that night I'm not thinking civil case, I'm
24 not thinking criminal investigation, I'm thinking
25 quarantine, because we have a possible meningitis situation
Page 3254 Image
1 with a possible close knit -- this is a nightmare, to think
2 meningitis would go through 800 population.
3 Q. That would be bad.
4 A. So I'm looking at this, I don't see any -- there's
5 no reason for me to keep these. I have no real intention on
6 even shredding them. It's not like the thought occurred,
7 should I keep these or not, am I supposed to shred these.
8 Throw them in the shredder, you've got this report here that
9 summarizes everything that's here.
10 Q. Well, the reason why I kind of -- I hate to dwell
11 on this too much, but it's kind of a thicket with us, you
12 know. But I mean, my learning of these documents is that
13 they're very important documents in your -- in your
14 organization. And the reason why I say that is because
15 Mr. Steilo and Lacy Spencer and many other people are so
16 fearful of the power of these documents that they won't even
17 cast their eyes upon them, they'll pick up the folder and
18 not look in it or place the document on top of the folder
19 and not look at it.
20 A. Right.
21 Mark, you're. completely mixing apples and oranges.
22 If there's -- there's a PC folder of a person whose case
23 level is much higher on the auditing sequence than myself, I
24 won't look in it either. For someone in the OT levels, I'm
25 not OT, I'm not going to be perusing through to see what's
Page 3255 Image
1 there. We consider that sacred or information that was
2 only, you know, privy to the people that are on that level,
3 because they've gone through the steps leading to that
4 level. I wouldn't look in there either.
5 That's completely different from, I've got reports
6 here that I had no significance on these reports, because to
7 me I had two copies of the same thing. That's sort of how I
8 looked at it, why keep a duplicate set. They were about
9 that much thicker. I had -- what was this, maybe, the
10 summary, two, three, four pages? Why keep both? I
11 didn't -- it didn't dawn on me -- you said these are very
12 significant or these are very important. That's not true.
13 These -- these handwritten reports that Marcus.rounded up
14 weren't important.
15 Q. They were the exact same reports of observations
16 of caretakers that I've subpoenaed here that Glen Steilo
17 himself said he couldn't gaze upon when he was searching for
18 them because they were of a higher level in the PC folder
19 than he had obtained through his auditing and training.
20 A. I don't think that's true.
21 Q. Then he's got a problem, because he didn't look
22 for the documents. How can he find them if he can't look
23 for them?
24 A. Can I clarify something? When I say that's not
25 true, what I'm saying is my understanding of these reports
Page 3256 Image
1 is that Marcus -- even though the same people are involved,
2 these reports weren't the day-to-day things that had been
3 written up during that 17 days. These were -- these are --
4 I asked Marcus or somebody asked Marcus -- I asked it to be
5 done, Marcus did it -- find out who had been in contact and
6 have them write up a little summary what their contact was.
7 And then I -- to me, I had then a memorialization of --
8 this, you know, had been memorialized in this written
10 Q. This isn't the contact aspect of it, these
11 paragraphs deal with their -- what went on. Laura was
12 watching her to see that her -- they use the improper
13 spelling here -- expiratory range was okay, respiratory
14 range and pulse were okay. Does that sound like
15 something -- that's not just information of contact with
16 her, they're talking about daily activity logs. That's what
17 this is to me.
18 A. Okay. I can -- maybe I can just -- here's my
19 viewpoint. I didn't see any reason to keep these notes. In
20 retrospect, had you been sitting there instead of me
21 thinking, you know, we might be sitting here today, I -- you
22 know, we should keep these reports. That thought process
23 never entered my mind, like I should keep these because
24 there may be some legal reason to keep these sometime down
25 the road.
Page 3257 Image
1 Q. Well, that decision was made the next day.
2 A. What -- what decision?
3 Q. I assume the next day is when you contacted
4 Mr. Johnson and discussed the legal ramification of this
5 situation, correct?
6 A. Right. Yeah, that's correct.
7 Q. Within 12 hours of what you're telling me now?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. So the legal impact hit you 12 hours later?
10 A. I didn't even ask -- I didn't even talk about this
11 with him. This process of me reading Marcus summary and
12 tossing those reports I never mentioned to Bob Johnson
13 because it wasn't significant to me.
14 Q. All right. Are there any other reports that you
15 shred that I should know about?
16 A. I would have shredded press -- I would have
17 shredded, you know, the extra copies of our statements for
18 the press.
19 Q. Why would you do that?
20 A. I don't need ten copies of something.
21 Q. Well, you had ten copies. You wouldn't shred the
23 A. No.
24 Q. These were the originals you shredded here.
25 A. I wouldn't have shred the original of a press
Page 3258 Image
1 article. I might want to keep one copy of a press statement
2 I issued, you know, just for the record, to know what --
3 what's said or what I issued to the paper, to compare it to
4 what they printed or something for that reason. But I -- I
5 don't recall shredding anything else.
6 Q. Okay. So sometime that night you're saying
7 Mr. Quirino had the opportunity on his PC to put all these
8 summaries together?
9 A. Or typewriter, whatever.
10 Q. This is before the 6th?
11 A. This was that night.
12 Q. The 5th?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So before midnight on the 5th?
15 A. I don't know if it was before midnight, tell you
16 the truth. It was late. It might have been after midnight
17 by the time we finished.
18 Q. What time did you type out your summary here?
19 A. That would have been about -- I think it was
20 shortly after midnight.
21 Q. On your PC?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. Is it still in your PC?
24 A. I don't think so.
25 Q. Quirino use his PC?
Page 3259 Image
1 A. I don't know what he used.
2 Q. Typewriter? PC?
3 A. One or the other.
4 Q. And you two guys got together and these things got
5 together when?
6 A. He brought them over there late5t that night. I
7 don't know exactly what time, it was that night or just --
8 Q. Or that morning on the 6th?
9 A. I mean, when I say -- I'm talking about after
11 Q. This meeting with Quirino was that night?
12 A. He brought them over that -- sometime late that
13 night, yes.
14 Q. So you had your summary done?
15 A. Of my conversation with Minkoff, right.
16 Q. You had already accomplished that?
17 A. I forget what the sequence was, if I had finished
18 that first or if Marcus came over and gave me that stuff.
19 As I recall, I think I typed up my thing before Marcus came
20 over with the stuff or -- I don't know for certain what
21 happened first.
22 Q. So sometime before midnight -- so Quirino had the
23 opportunity to speak to all these people and get their
24 summaries and they wrote them out sometime before midnight,
25 he did this summary after he read all those summaries, and
Page 3260 Image
1 then he came over and gave them to you. Is that the
2 scenario I'm following here?
3 A. I think so. And lot of this might have happened
4 after midnight. When you say before and after, I'm not sure
5 if this occurred after midnight.
6 Q. And you're sure it occurred on the 5th, the night
7 she died?
8 A. Right, late that night.
9 MR. POLLI: When you say..."late that night,"
10 after midnight it becomes the 6th. It was still dark?
11 Q. We've got a lot of people up after midnight
12 writing reports.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And all the people gave him the reports, as well
15 as interviewing them, is what you told me, and then he goes
16 to the PC and writes this, then sees you?
17 A. Yeah, as I recall that all happened that night,
18 after midnight, but, yeah --
19 Q. You were there.
20 A. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he did it all that night.
21 I'm pretty certain.
22 Q. Now, I subpoenaed a lot of documents over the
23 course of this investigation. This document was -- these
24 documents were subpoenaed -- actually, these documents were
25 provided to me gratis. I did not subpoena these documents.
Page 3261 Image
1 A. "These" meaning?
2 Q. These documents that we're talking about.
3 A. The write-up?
4 Q. Your summary --
5 A. And Marcus'?
6 Q. -- and Marcus' summary were provided to me without
7 a subpoena by counsel --
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. -- as a matter of fact. This was in May.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. All right. Laura Vaughan cover letter.
12 Did you meet with Laura Vaughan on these
13 documents? And I don't know -- I don't want to know what
14 you talked about, but if you met with her I'd like to know
15 about that.
16 A. Yes, on the -- I know we talked about the Minkoff
17 summary. I forget if we talked about the other one or not.
18 Q. Okay. The reason why, did you ever read her cover
19 letter that she sent with those documents that comprised
20 your summary as well as Quirino's?
21 A. I don't recall as I sit here. I'd have to look at
22 it to see if I read it or not.
23 Q. Starts out, These documents were generated during
24 the course of an internal investigation that occurred
25 following the death of Lisa McPherson and at the request of
Page 3262 Image
1 both in-house and outside counsel. All right?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. So that makes me think these documents were
4 produce or created or surmised --
5 A. Oh, sometime later?
6 Q. -- because of lawyers.
7 A. Well, when you say --
8 Q. You say the lawyers weren't involved until the
9 following day?
10 A. When you say "these documents," you're talking
11 about my summary from my conversation with Dr. Minkoff --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. -- and the summary that Marcus did?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. That was that night, unless I'm missing something,
16 and Marcus did his the next day, but that would be as far
17 as --
18 Q. It may be just semantics. She's used the words
19 this was an internal investigation, but she says they were
20 generated because the lawyers wanted all that stuff. And
21 you're saying they were generated far before the lawyers
22 became involved?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Okay. Now, how did these documents get to
25 Laura Vaughan? It's kind of another question like we just
Page 3263 Image
1 posed with the last documents.
2 A. Now, this -- I don't know who gave them to her,
3 but at some point in time --
4 Q. It's your document.
5 A. I know.
6 MR. POLLI: Wait a minute. Let me remind you
7 something about the last question that you told me
8 about Bob Johnson.
9 (The witness and his counsel confer.)
10 MR. POLLI: Go back to the other question
11 about --
12 A. You're talking about the attorneys.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. When Bob Johnson -- that summary of Marcus', I
15 set -- that night I'm talking about, the night of the 5th, I
16 knew that I'd be seeing Bob Johnson the next day --
17 Q. So you did know lawyers were going to be involved
18 in this?
19 A. Yes. Yeah. If I gave that impression --
20 Q. Well, that's the impression you gave me, you
21 didn't until the next day, then Bob Johnson got involved.
22 A. Let me correct. Let me say what I was going to
23 say first, then I'll address that. I want to clarify what
24 my recollection is.
25 I remember setting this report -- this summary by
Page 3264 Image
1 Marcus aside intending to give that to Bob Johnson the next
2 day. When he came over, I never did actually give it to him
3 the next day, because there was a whole flurry of activity
4 that happened, zoom, just went passed it and I just forgot
5 about it, frankly.
6 I don't know what I said before about involvement
7 of Bob Johnson, but one of my staff may have called
8 Bob Johnson that night. I'm sure they were trying to reach
9 him. I just don't know, here as we sit I don't recall if
10 they actually reached him that night. I think they must
11 have, because I don't know if I was the first person to tell
12 me this the next morning.
13 The next morning, on the 6th, sometime around
14 9:00, or between nine and ten o'clock as I recall, I got
15 ahold of Bob Johnson, because the police were now at the
16 Fort Harrison. And I was over at the Fort Harrison, and I
17 went to the nearest phone and called Bob Johnson, said the
18 police are here, come on over. And as I recall, he already
19 knew the fact that this woman had died, so one of my staff
20 must have reached Bob earlier in the night, the night
22 MR. POLLI: And the reason you called, tried
23 to get ahold of him late that night or early that
24 morning was because -- not for any purposes other than
25 what? What did you tell me?
Page 3265 Image
1 THE WITNESS: Well, he -- I mean,
2 logically, you know, I wasn't thinking criminal, civil,
3 I wasn't thinking of anything. Bob Johnson should
4 know. I mean, there were a number of reasons. I mean,
5 highest on my mind wasthis thing with the possibility
6 of meningitis, but a 7man dies, I'm going to call our
8 Q. Did you give him these documents the following
9 day-- -
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- copies?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you tell him you created them?
14 A. No. I didn't even think about it the next day.
15 Q. All right.
16 A. Because so much was happening the next day, you
18 Q. But we've gotten far afield from my original
19 question, which is, who gave these documents to
20 Laura Vaughan?
21 A. I don't know. I can guess. I don't know who gave
22 them to her.
23 Q. All right. Let's back up one step then.
24 When is the last time you saw this documentright
25 here, that's your summary of Dr. Minkoff's statement you
Page 3266 Image
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. You created this on your computer?
4 A. Yes. I would have put that on a file.
s Q. What kind of file?
6 A. Just a stand-up files, manila folder file.
7 Q. Would it say "Lisa McPherson" on it?
8 A. I don't recall. Probably.
9 Q. Did you put it in there by itself or did you
10 include the Marcus Quirino summaries?
11 A. I think probably it would have been in the same
12 file as the Marcus Quirino summary. I'm -- I don't
13 recollect putting it in a file folder, I'm telling you what
14 probably happened. Because I wouldn't let it sit on my desk
15 for a couple weeks, I probably put it in a file folder.
16 don't recollect, but probably would have been labeled
17 "Lisa McPherson," probably would be plopped in there with
18 Marcus' summary.
19 Q. So we have another file that was created during
20 the investigation?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And that was in your possession?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Glen still doesn't know about your file on
25 Lisa McPherson?
Page 3267 Image
1 A. When I gave Glen my files, I had two other files
2 and I didn't have this file, didn't have a third file.
3 Q. That's because that file has long been given to
4 somebody, because Glen Steilo --
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. -- didn't get involved in the case until after I
7 got those.
8 A. That's right. I believe what -- I'm just telling
9 you what happened. I think that file must have been
10 taken -- I mean, I don't even have much recollection of this
11 file, but I know I would have filed them somewhere.
12 Q. Well, yours is better than mine.
13 A. Okay. Probably what happened is sometime after
14 `95 that file would -- just my guess, that that file got
15 picked up by one of my staff and given to our attorney,
16 Bob Johnson. That's my guess. I mean --
17 Q. So Bob Johnson did get these documents?
18 A. I think eventually, yeah. I -- you have' to ask
19 him, I don't know, but I think probably.
20 Q. I mean, these are documents -- by now, I mean, you
21 know that this -- this swirling controversy involving her
22 death, very important stuff, you got a lawyer involved, you
23 got the cops there the next day, you got a file you created,
24 your summary's sitting here and that thing's sitting on your
25 desk, and you don't know when or where it disappeared or
Page 3268 Image
1 where it went to.
2 What kind of controls do you have in your office?
3 Can anybody walk in there and grab a file?
4 A. No. No. I would have put it -- I would have
5 plopped it in a file on that report from Marcus and that
6 report from Minkoff.
7 The next day I talked to Bob Johnson and, as I
8 recall, I told him what my conversation with Minkoff
9 consisted of. When I told him that, I didn't have any --
10 thought never crossed my mind, oh, I need to get that
11 written debrief to Bob. Maybe I should have. And if I did,
12 I don't recall -- no, I didn't. I don't recall giving him a
13 copy of the Minkoff report. And I don't recall giving him
14 the -- the -- the Marcus -- I'm almost certain I didn't give
15 him the Marcus summary.
16 Q. So now you did not give these to him?
17 A. I know I didn't give Marcus' report to him. I set
18 that aside. I was thinking I'm going tp give this to him
19 tomorrow. I must have plopped It in a file. I did not give
20 that to Bob the next day. Put it in a file folder.
21 The Minkoff thing, I remember I verbally told Bob
22 what happened, and I don't think -- I don't think I give him
23 a copy of the written report either.
24 Q. You, see my question still hasn't been answered.
25 I got those.
Page 3269 Image
1 A. Right.
2 Q. How did I get it?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Such a basic question. How can you not know how I
5 got this document from your Church? You were in charge of
6 the whole bloody place at that time.
7 A. Yeah. It's not like I keep a tracking system of
8 every single folder or paper.
9 Q. I understand that on maybe anybody else, but
10 Lisa Mcpherson, don't tell me you didn't have a tracking
11 system of everything going on with her. That case has got
12 an asterisk by it and you know it.
13 A. That's right. That's true.
14 And I had two files. When Glen Steilo asked me
15 for my folders on Lisa McPherson, I give him two folders,
16 and it consisted of press stuff. I don't even remember -- I
17 gave him what I had. All I can do --
18 Q. This is before Steilo. Please. Please.
19 A. No, I understand.
20 What I -- what I presume happened, because I
21 remember Judy Fontana sometime last year was one of my
22 staff, she was a liaison point with the attorneys at that
23 point, gave some files to Bob Johnson, our attorney.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. And I think -- I'm assuming this other file, where
Page 3270 Image
1 I put those reports, would have gone to him at that time.
2 That I don't know. I've never asked Judy about that,
3 period. I mean, that's all I know.
4 Q. So then the inference there is that Bob Johnson
5 gave these records to --
6 A. Laura.
7 Q. -- Laura Vaughan.
8 Did you make copies of these reports, by the way?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You handed them over to the lawyer and you didn't
11 keep a copy for the Church?
12 A. I didn't hand them over to the lawyer.
13 Q. Well, somebody in your office handed them over to
14 the lawyer.
15 A. If Judy did, that -- that's my assumption, that
16 Judy did. As I recall, I don't recall ever -- I don't
17 specifically recall her giving them, I'm supposing that that
19 Q. All right. Let me ask you this: Do you have
20 copies -- you've got copies of all those caretaker notes,
21 don't you, in that Church somewhere? You didn't just hand
22 them all the originals over, did you?
23 A. I never handed these over to anybody.
24 Q. Well, somebody did.
25 A. Right.
Page 3271 Image
1 Q. Would they hand over everything and not have a
2 copy for themselves? Is that Church protocol?
3 A. I can see that happening.
4 Q. Okay. If that's true, that's true.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. You think it happened?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. So you think the Church divested themselves of all
9 the originals in this case?
10 A. I don't know. I mean, that's a pretty broad
12 Q. You would know better than me, you're in charge
13 over there.
14 A. I know what I did with my files.
15 Q. Who makes the decision to do that? We're going to
16 give the documents to the lawyer, lawyer's going to give
17 them to the prosecutor. That's scary stuff, prosecutor's
18 going to be doing a big investigation. Make a copy, don't
19 make a copy, who makes that decision?
20 A. Whoever's giving documents over. If Judy Fontana
21 last year was giving documents over to Bob Johnson, it would
22 be her call. She feels that she needs to make a copy of it
23 or gives a original of somethihg over to Bob Johnson, she's
24 going to have to decide should I make a copy because I need
25 to see it or can I just go over to Bob's and retrieve it if
Page 3272 Image
1 I have to. She's going to have to make that decision.
2 Q. You don't know? You don't know who gave the
3 documents to Laura Vaughan?
4 A. I don't. But I'm surprised that's a difficult
5 question to get answered. I don't know who gave them to
7 Q. It's a real difficult question.
8 A. All right.
9 Q. If you don't know the answer, I want to know who
11 A. I would have guessed that Glen Steilo would have
12 given that to her.
13 Q. He doesn't have a clue.
14 You know, it's kind of missing a link. Here I got
15 all these things everybody says they did, they don't show up
16 in my discovery subpoena.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And then -- and then, well, you know, you go to
19 backtrack, and I don't even get the first step backward.
20 A. I don't know --
21 Q. That's how you find -- let me interrupt. That's
22 how you find out, you go backward till you find out all of a
23 sudden there's a hole and they disappear.
24 A. I understand.
25 Q. I got one step and it's shot.
Page 3273 Image
1 A. I'm just saying, I'm not in a position to know,
2 since I've been working only in Public Affairs since early
3 last year.
4 Q. All right. Then you certainly ought to be able to
5 tell me who would know.
6 A. Well, I would -- if Glen Steilo said no, my next
7 guess to you would be Ben Shaw. If he's no, I don't know.
8 Q. I don't know if Ben Shaw knows or not. Ben Shaw
9 didn't get involved in this document business until long
10 after they'd been given to me.
11 A. Right.
12 My -- my -- I don't know why this is such a
13 mystery. I don't know who gave them to her, is the answer
14 to your question.
15 Q. All right. We're going to move on here, but do
16 you understand why that concerns me?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Thanks.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What does the phrase "case data" mean?
21 A. Would mean -- could refer to information -- case
22 would refer to a person's, you know, information regarding
23 his auditing program, an auditing program. Case -- case
24 data, case information, would be material that would be
25 found in a PC folder.
Page 3274 Image
1 Well, those ended up in a PC folder whether or not
2 they're PC or not. Some people have their reservations.
3 A lot of the documents have been referred to by
4 the authors, as well as Marcus Quirino, as being case data.
5 Would that qualify in your description of it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. They've also indicated to me case data is not
8 something that's subject to destruction. Is that also in
9 atcordance with your beliefs and your opinion of the Hubbard
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So I'll take it one step further. That being the
13 case data that they created, those caretakers, they also
14 created for Marcus Quirino, would you now agree that you
15 shouldn't have destroyed the case data that they did for
16 Quirino originally that he summarized from? You still
17 wouldn't agree with that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Your distinction is because it was replicated in a
20 summary fashion, that that would suffice? That's your
22 A. Yeah. I mean, I can clarify that.
23 Q. Please do.
24 A. The purpose of that information being gathered up
25 was on this meningitis thing. I didn't characterize -- I
Page 3275 Image
1 wasn't thinking of that as case data.
2 Q. I understand that. But if you read the summary,
3 which you might not have had a chance to because you did it
4 quickly, if you read the summary that Quirino made, it has
5 nothing to do with, I had contact with her on November 20th
6 or such and such a day.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. No, it is case data. It talks about her
9 well-being, it talks about what her respiratory was, it
10 talks about how she looked, it talks about what she did
12 A. Right. Right. I mean, yeah, okay, I understand.
13 Q. All right. The answer is the same though?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Now, could Paul Kellerhaus have been
16 involved in this little transaction with these reports with
17 Quirino and you?
18 A. Might have.
19 Q. What do you mean, "might have"?
20 A. I don't recall if he was.
21 Q. Was he privy to it? Was he --
22 A. You mean the summary that Marcus was doing that
24 Q. Was he involved with you that night? Did you talk
25 to him? Did he see these reports? Did he deliver them?
Page 3276 Image
1 Did he touch them?
2 A. You're pointing to these, but are you talking --
3 Q. I'm talking about these, these Quirino reports
4 that you're handling.
5 A. Right.
6 I don't recall Paul being involved in that. He
7 may have been, but I don't recall. I don't recall. I mean,
8 Marcus was in my office --
9 Q. Could he have been given a copy, by any chance?
10 A. Well, I suppose he could have been. I didn't know
11 if he was. I don't know if he was.
12 Q. Well, he wasn't present when two copies were
13 delivered, as far as you remember?
14 A. As far as I remember.
15 Q. Like one copy to you, one copy to him?
16 A. No, I don't remember that at all. As far as I
17 know, I got the only copies from Marcus.
18 Q. What level is Marcus Quirino anyway? He's a high
19 level, isn't he?
20 A. You mean administratively or --
21 Q. Both. Give me both sides of the picture on him.
22 A. I don't know -- I don't know his -- I don't know
23 his case level, his auditing level. I don't know what that
24 is. Administrative, yeah, he was an executive. At that
25 time he was an executive in the Church, he still is.
Page 3277 Image
1 Q. Is he still?
2 A. Administrative executive, yeah.
3 Q. What position does he hold now?
4 A. I'm not sure what his post is now.
5 MR. POLLI: I don't remember either.
6 Q. All right. After Lisa McPherson died, you were
7 still in charge for how many months?
8 A. Till the end of May, early June of `96.
9 Q. That's almost six months?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. All right. You're in charge of the whole place
13 A. I was in charge of the Office of Special Affairs.
14 Q. That's as high as it gets.
15 A. In OSA.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. We're in charge of all the external affairs.
18 Q. Is there anybody in Clearwater that tells you what
19 to do when you had that position?
20 A. No. No.
21 Q. That's my question.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Who sent all these PC folders to L.A.?
24 First, do you know that occurred? Because
25 obviously, if you don't know, then you can't answer the
Page 3278 Image
2 A. You mean Lisa McPherson's PC folders?
3 Q. Yeah.
4 A. Yeah, I've heard since they went to L.A. --
5 Q. Yeah, I told you that.
6 A. No, but I heard earlier. But I don't know -- I
7 don't know who sent them there.
8 Q. That was under your watch.
9 A. I don't know who sent them there. I mean,
10 Judy Fontana --
11 Q. Who do I ask?
12 A. Judy Fontana.
13 Q. Somebody underneath you would know whether or not
14 Lisa Mcpherson's folders were sent to L.A.?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Or could. Yeah, should know.
18 Q. Why would they be sent to L.A.?
19 A. I don't know. I don't know why they were sent to
21 Q. Have you ever sent anybody's folders to L.A. that
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Is there somebody in L.A. that got them that
25 reviewed them that you're aware of?
Page 3279 Image
1 A. But one of my staff -- no, I'm not aware of.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. One of my staff could have sent them out there and
4 I wouldn't necessarily know that.
5 Q. Could your Quirino summary and your Minkoff
6 summary have made that trip to L.A. too?
7 A. Could have.
8 Q. You don't know?
9 A. But I don't know.
10 Q. That's your document. Somebody would have sent
11 your document to L.A. without your knowing it?
12 A. If I have a staff -- I have -- during that period
13 of time I have a junior staff at that time, Judy Fontana,
14 who is the liaison with Bob Johnson on this matter. And
15 there could easily have been some decision between the two
16 of them what to go to L.A. and what not to, and I would not
17 necessarily know. I wouldn't necessarily know.
18 Q. Did you ever talk to anybody about that from L.A.,
19 her PC folders?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No lawyers, anybody?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. So do you know where they would have ended up in
24 L.A., had they gone to L.A.? If they went to L.A., and I've
25 been told they did go to L.A., whose office did they land
Page 3280 Image
2 A. I would guess they would have gone into the legal
3 area at OSA in Los Angeles.
4 Q. All right. So not only do we not know who is
5 providing these documents to the lawyers in Tampa, but we
6 don't know either who is the person within your organization
7 over here in Clearwater that originally sent them out to
9 A. Well, Judy Fontana -- last year Judy Fontana
10 was -- Judy Fontana was holding a position comparable to
11 what Glen Steilo is right now, and I would think between the
12 two of them they would know that. And if Judy --
13 Q. Well, Glen Steilo has no clue.
14 A. I'm saying the predecessor, Judy Fontana, was
15 holding that area before Glen and she would know. If she
16 would send them out, she would obviously know.
17 Q. Where are the PC folders now?
18 A. I don't know where they are now.
19 Q. Who knows the answer to that question?
20 A. I would think Glen would.
21 Q. Glen doesn't know.
22 A. I don't know where they are.
23 Q. Okay. Other than Glen, do you know of who might
24 know where they are?
25 A. Glen would be --
Page 3281 Image
1 Q. Do you see why that's a mystery to me? I'm
2 talking to the head guy, and you can't give me an answer to
3 where they files are --
4 A. Right.
5 Q. -- right now.
6 I want to know where her files are. You're still
7 in a very lofty position over there in Clearwater and you
8 don't know where her files are?
9 A. I wouldn't be expected to know where her files are
10 working in Public Relations.
13 Q. Well, I've been through the Custodian and he
12 doesn't know.
13 A. That's what I would say, check with Glen Steilo.
14 It wouldn't be something that would cross my plate.
15 Q. Do you see the shell game I'm having to play?
16 A. I'm not in a position -- you're looking at me like
17 I should know where her PC files are.
18 Q. You're the only person I've got to talk to. I've
19 gone all the way up the chain.
20 Is there anybody else? You mentioned Judy, I
21 guess she's next.
22 A. Either Glen or Ben Shaw.
23 Q. Well, Ben Shaw is on the list, I guess, too. He
24 isn't a lawyer by any chance, is he?
25 A. No.
Page 3282 Image
1 Q. All right. Benetta Slaughter's name keeps popping
2 up in all these meetings. Can you explain that to me?
3 A. Which meetings?
4 Q. She seems to be present at meetings between you
5 and Quirino and PK. And any time there's a discussion when
6 you're talking about Lisa McPherson, oh, yeah, and Benetta
7 was there. And I'm getting that from various sources. So
8 is that your recollection?
9 A. No, sir. She wasn't there the night of the 5th.
10 She wasn't there the next day. I know there was a -- when I
11 first saw Benetta on this matter was -- I forget which day
12 this was, but I remember Ron Sudler came over and wanted --
13 came over to the Fort Harrison, wanted to talk to
14 Benetta Slaughter. That -- that occurred. And I saw
15 Benetta sometime in that period.
16 Oh, the next day I saw Benetta because there was
17 an identification of the body that was needed and her
18 husband and -- who also works at AMC, and then
19 Jeff Schaeffer --
20 Q. Was Benetta close to Lisa?
21 A. As far as I know, yeah. She said she was very
22 close to her.
23 Q. How come she never visited over at the hotel?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Did you eyer ask her that?
Page 3283 Image
1 A. I didn't.
2 Q. You went to the funeral, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you didn't even know her?
5 A. I knew she was a volunteer of ours on
6 Winter Wonderland.
7 Q. You went to her funeral in Texas?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And you felt compelled to do that because?
10 A. I've gone to other funerals of other Scientologist
11 parishioners who I wasn't close to, but --
12 Q. Not in Texas?
13 A. No, but there was -- I talked to -- I went because
14 I thought it would be appropriate to do so.
15 Q. Because you're the head guy?
16 A. Yeah. I thought a representative of the Church --
17 Q. I'm not questioning you. I think that's
18 commendable. I'm not criticizing you for that.
19 Did Benetta go?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did Benetta have access to these documents, if she
22 wanted to see them?
23 A. Which documents?
24 Q. The documents we're talking about, the caretakers'
25 notes --
Page 3284 Image
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- and the summaries or anything like that.
3 A. No.
4 Q. So if Quirino said that they've discussed them,
5 that would be news to you, right?
6 A. Well, that's a different question. I don't
7 know -- it wouldn't be -- I don't know that he's discussed
8 these documents with Benetta, but I'm sure -- it wouldn't
9 surprise me he's discussed things with Benetta.
10 Q. About Lisa?
11 A. Yeah, about Lisa, sure. I mean, she was her
13 Q. Would Benetta know the answer to any of these
14 questions I have about these documents, by any chance? I
15 know she's not Staff, but it seems like she involved herself
16 in this because maybe she was a close friend with Lisa
17 and/or her employer.
18 A. I think both reasons she has an interest, but I
19 don't think she would know anything about PC folders or any
20 of the documents we've discussed today, no.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. No, she couldn't, `cause she's not in a role to.
23 Q. Do you know these guys here, Sandor Boodan,
24 Sandor Barna and Istvan Melmeczy?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3285 Image
1 Q. And who are they?
2 A. Security Staff.
3 Q. All right. Are they still employed with your
5 A. Istvan I don't think is. Sandor -- I think both
6 Sandors are. I think they still are.
7 Q. They apparently are the Hungarian Security Guards
8 that might have been on duty at the time Lisa was hauled to
9 the van, the mysterious Hungarian Security Guards we
10 couldn't find.
11 MR. McGARRY: Well, I'm going to turn it over
12 to Detective Andrews and let him ask you a few
13 questions. I know I've missed a few areas because we
14 got side-tracked a few times. If you could afford him
15 the same courtesy.
16 If you would like to take a break, you're
17 welcome to take one.
18 THE WITNESS: No, I'm fine.
19 MR. McGARRY: Forge on, your lawyer says.
21 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
22 Q. Real quickly, I'm going to try not to cover
23 anything Mark covered, Brian.
24 There was a meeting that night, the night Lisa
25 died. Do you remember who was at that meeting?
Page 3286 Image
1 A. There was a lot of people in my office.
2 Q. Let me just characterize, it might give you a
3 hint. It was a meeting of upper level people, the Brian
4 Andersons, the Paul Kellerhauses. Do you remember that
6 A. Well, I don't know if it was -- in my office, I
7 was in there and other people congregated in my office.
8 Paul Kellerhaus was there, maybe people were in and out at
9 different times, but I remember seeing Paul there and I
10 think Arthur Baxter was there, couple of my staff were
11 there, Janet Herring came in for a while.
12 Q. Now, why would she be there? What's she?
13 A. Well, this -- let me just, first of all,
14 characterize this evening. It was a very confusing period
15 of time.
16 Q. I can imagine.
17 A. It was late at night. People were tired.
18 Q. Meningitis, you get that meningitis problem.
19 A. That too.
20 Anyway, so I'll give you the best of my
21 recollection who was there. I mean, you asked why was she
22 there --
23 Q. I was just curious. Her name only came up briefly
24 as being like a person in charge of motel or hotel rooms.
25 Was she much more than that?
Page 3287 Image
1 A. I never talked to her. I remember seeing her
2 there, but I don't recall talking to her that night, so I
3 don't know -- I don't know.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. Marcus was there for a bit. Alain was inmy
6 office, Alain Kartuzinski wa4 there for a bit. -And there
7 was -- there was some other people too. My -- Annie Mora
8 was there.
9 Q. That's what I was going to ask you, the staff
11 A. Yeah, Annie Mora was there.
12 Q. What did she do for you at that time?
13 A. She was one of my staff, administrative staff.
14 Q. Normal job duties?
15 A. She keeps -- maintains files, some files.
16 And then I know there's one or two of my other
17 staff there. I -- I think -- I think Humberto Fontana was
18 there for a bit. There was one or two of my other staff,
19 and I frankly can't remember who was all there.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And then there were a few other people that came
22 in and out, but I -- you know, I'm on the phone talking, I
23 remember seeing people coming in and out, but I can't tell
24 you exactly.
25 Q. All right. During that meeting did you place a
Page 3288 Image
1 phone call to California?
2 A. At some point in the night I called California
4 Q. Okay. Who did you call?
5 A. I think -- I think I talked to Roman Guissauer, as
6 I recall.
7 Q. Another name. Roman?
8 A. Yeah, I forget exactly, it was a confusing night.
9 I remember talking to somebody and I think it was Roman.
10 Q. Guissauer?
11 A. Yeah. It's -- I think it's G-u-i-s-s-a-u-e-r.
12 Q. Okay. What is -- who is he? Was he your boss?
13 A. Yeah, uh-huh, supervisor from the L.A. level.
14 Q. So he would have been like a Vice-President or a
President of International --
16 A. No.
17 Q. --OSA?
18 A. No, just a -- an administrator out there who --
19 who's' somebody we answer to and report to, send our reports
20 to, liaison with. If we need something from L.A., he's like
21 a liaison point for us, contact point. -
22 Q. I know that according to Glen Steilo and your
23 testimony, the PC folders ended up in the OSA Office in
24 Los Angeles.
25 A. Okay.
Page 3289 Image
1 Q. We're getting that.
2 And the people you described, or Mr. McGarry asked
3 you about, Carol Oaks and stuff, they're all OSA people?
4 A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. Now, here in Clearwater, would those PC
6 files had been kept by you in OSA?
7 A. Not by myself directly, no.
8 Q. In your office?
9 A. It's possible. It's possible they had come to my
10 office. I don't remember seeing them and I don't -- I
11 didn't direct anybody to bring them over.
12 Q. Okay. Can you give me an understanding on why --
13 you know, my understanding is PC folders are the auditing
14 and the spiritual thing and it would be with the auditors --
15 why it would end up in an office that would do external?
16 A. I don't know that it did.
17 Q. Well, they did in Los Angeles. So I'm looking for
18 some Church theory, since you're kind of an expert on the
19 Church, being there so long, the Church theory on why an
20 external organization of the Church, who deals in external
21 only, why they would have the spiritual folders at their
22 office in Los Angeles?
23 A. I can -- I can characterize why I think they
24 might, which was if there's an ongoing criminal.
25 investigation and civil case, if there's any information in
Page 3290 Image
1 the PC file that might be of interest to legal staff in --
2 in a legal staff of the Church.
3 Q. Okay. All right. At the time of Lisa's death
4 Judy Fontana worked for you?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Now, the evening of Lisa's death, Paul Kellerhaus
7 states that Judy Fontana was putting information together
8 for OSA on Lisa's death.
9 A. Say that again.
10 Q. Paul Kellerhaus states in his deposition that
11 Judy Fontana was putting -- he used "info" -- info together
12 for OSA on Lisa's death.
13 Now, my question is, did you order that? I would
14 say that sounds like an investigation or inquiry. Did you
15 order that inquiry as she's your subordinate?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No?
18 A. I don't remember talking to her about that.
19 Q. Okay. Why would she do that?
20 A. If she's putting together information?
21 Q. Yeah. The very -- very night that Lisa dies,
22 Kellerhaus says that he knows, and he's been questioned by
23 her, and she's already putting information together for OSA
24 on Lisa's death.
25 A. It might -- I don't remember her doing that, but
Page 3291 Image
1 if she did a report, it might have been for the same reason,
2 I wrote up a debrief of my conversation with -- with
3 Dr. Minkoff, just to gather information to -- I don't
4 remember what she wrote, but if she wrote something, it
5 would have been information summary to -- to explain what
6 had just happened.
7 Q. That kind of falls in line with that other
8 statement of Mr. Kellerhaus about her possibly or you
9 getting the reports from Kartuzinski, okay? Remember I told
10 you that Kellerhaus says he picked up reports on Lisa from
11 Alain Kartuzinski in an envelope, okay, and he delivered
12 them to OSA, either Judy or Brian.
13 A. I don't recall getting those.
14 Q. Okay. So we have Judy now, a subordinate for you,
15 she's conducting an investigation or an inquiry on Lisa's
16 death, and we have Kellerhaus picking up reports, and we
17 only can assume that they're these type of reports since
18 they're to Alain Kartuzinski, the Senior Case Supervisor,
19 taking them now to Judy Fontana. Pretty good investigation
20 going on the very night of her death. But you're not aware
21 of that as the CO?
22 A. I'm not aware of anything -- I'm not aware of any
23 packet being delivered to me, and I don't remember it being
24 delivered to Judy. It could well --
25 Q. Are you aware this was occurring then, this
Page 3292 Image
1 investigation? I have to call it an investigation, it
2 appears from Mr. Kellerhaus' description in his deposition
3 it's an investigation into her death.
4 A. There was a lot going on that night. I forget if
5 Judy was doing any round-up of information. If she was,
6 that doesn't surprise me. So -- but I don't have a specific
7 recollection of her doing that or what she wrote up.
8 Q. Okay. Ben Shaw, he's the new CO of OSA?
9 A. correct.
10 Q. Was he in your chain of command when you were the
11 CO of OSA?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. Was Roman Guissauer --
14 A. Guissauer, yeah.
15 I don't remember exactly who I spoke to in L.A.,
16 I'm thinking it might have been Roman.
17 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of that call to L.A.?
18 A. Let them know what had happened. I mean, the
19 woman had died. I mean --
20 Q. Right.
21 A. -- he should at least know about it.
22 Q. If she had died in the police department, I would
23 be calling my bosses saying, oh, my goodness--
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. Okay. That's the concern?
Page 3293 Image
1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. Now, there's been a lot of controversy as far as
3 we've had several experts in here from the
4 Church of Scientology, really qualified themselves as
S experts, one probably Quirino, he's been in a long time as
6 far as administrative, Glen Steilo, I was here for that, and
7 now yourself, but there's been a lot of controversy on these
8 reports on her watch, on where they should have been filed.
9 A. Right.
10 Q. I'd like to ask you, your knowledge of the Hubbard
11 technology, where these things should have gone to? I mean,
12 they've gone to Alain Kartuzinski, but where should they end
13 up? Say Lisa got better and left --
14 A. I would think they would go into the PC folders --
15 I mean the PC folder.
16 Q. The logic behind that?
17 A. That that would be a place where information about
18 an individual would go. In my PC folder, if I go to the
19 dentist, I might do a write-up what the dentist did and plug
20 in that report. If I get sick, I might do a report that
21 goes in a folder. It's not necessarily 100 percent done,
22 but that's -- that's conceivably where a report like that
23 could go. Just so the Case Supervisor can get a little
24 picture what's happening with the person.
25 Q. Okay. And if -- if one of the caretakers was to
Page 3294 Image
1 do a Knowledge Report at the same time about the Lisa
2 incident, wouldn't, therefore, the same theory be that it
3 would go to the PC folder?
4 A. No, probably would not. I mean, maybe could, but
5 I -- I could see where it wouldn't.
6 Q. Okay. So you're telling me if you write up a
7 thing on the dentist, it would go in the PC folder, but a
8 Knowledge Report --
9 A. Ideally it would, yeah, just because it might
10 indicate something's going on with me medically. Dental
11 report maybe isn't a good example, that might not go to my
12 PC folder. But if I all of a sudden got tuberculosis or
13 something, some severe illness, that should go into the PC
14 folder. That shows something serious is happening to me and
15 the Case Supervisor would want to know that.
16 Q. The Knowledge Report, from one that I read and
17 some of the tech that I read, is kind of a complaint form?
18 A. Not really. I guess maybe. If I -- if I take a
19 Church vehicle, a Church owned vehicle and smash it up and
20 don't report it, and someone --
21 Q. Knows that?
22 A. And someone knows that, that they know that I
23 didn't report it, they're going to sit down and should write
24 up a Knowledge Report saying, hey, he cracked up the car,
25 didn't bother telling anybody, you should know, and check
Page 3295 Image
1 with Brian why -- why he's trying to hide that sort of
2 thing. That wouldn't go in my PC folder.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. There's no reason to.
5 Q. At the time of Lisa's death, could you look at
6 Lisa's PC folder?
7 A. Could I? Yes.
8 Q. Okay, you could. Did you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. So you were a high enough level because she
11 was only Clear too --
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. -- that you could look into it?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Now, in your experience -- what did you do before
16 you came to the Church?
17 A. I was a school teacher.
18 Q. Okay. In your experience and all the knowledge
19 you've gathered, and I want to ask you this question
20 hypothetically, if you were going to launch an investigation
21 to find missing documents out of a PC folder, right, you
22 know, you're going to try to find documents that are missing
23 supposedly from this PC folder, which I've read is a serious
24 offense, okay, would you not assign someone to that as the
25 administrator that could look into the folder?
Page 3296 Image
1 A. Well, you're asking me if I -- would I try to find
2 the documents, in other words?
3 Q. Well, you have staff, Judy Fontana, and she's only
4 a Level IV, okay, and you're missing documents in Lisa's
5 Clear folder, okay, and you go and tell Judy, go find these
6 documpnts from the Clear folder, you know that she can't
7 look in the folder. Wouldn't you assign somebody of your
8 own level, a Clear, so they could go look at that?
9 A. If I needed -- conceivably, yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. If I needed to find -- if I had somebody's PC
12 folder, noticed something should be there and wasn't, yeah,
13 I could conceivably have somebody go check, hey, what
14 happened to this report or that report.
15 Q. Okay. What's an OSA terminal?
16 A. It means -- terminal just means person.
17 Q. I think we learned that in Glen Steilo's.
18 A. Right.
19 Office of Special Affairs, it means a staff member
20 who works in the Department of Special Affairs or the
21 Office of Special Affairs.
22 Q. Okay. Did Paul Kellerhaus give you a list of all
23 the people involved with Lisa for the quarantine?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Where did you --
Page 3297 Image
1 A. That was the -- that's the summary report from
3 Q. That's what I was going to get at. Where did you
4 get the list of people that you needed to quarantine?
5 A. Marcus.
6 Q. Okay. Now, in that document, the summary, okay,
7 there are several people there that had a lot of contact
8 with Lisa who are not in your summary, but yet they were
10 A. Say that again.
11 Q. Your summary or Marcus' summary -- we'll go back
12 to the shredded documents.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. The shredded documents, the summary made by
15 Marcus Quirino lists maybe ten people or 11 people, I think
16 Mr. McGarry said. Now, there are people that had contact
17 with Lisa that are not listed in the summary, okay?
18 A. When did they have contact with Lisa?
19 Q. At the later part, at the late part they had
20 contact with Lisa and they're not in the summary, okay, yet
21 they were quarantined over at Hacienda Gardens, they were
22 made to move out of their room. Now, how does this all come
23 together? See what I'm saying? Where we have a big void --
24 A. Keep in mind this is late at night, there's a lot
25 going on, a lot of things to deal with. I'm trying to reach
Page 3298 Image
1 next of kin, I'm trying to find out what actually happened,
2 I'm talking to Dr. Minkoff and this idea of meningitis comes
3 up in the -- I mean, you can imagine it's a confusing night
5 Q. Right.
6 A. And then this meningitis factor gets thrown in.
7 We all -- you know, this is --
8 Q. You're worried?
9 A. Yeah. It's like -- it's -- so when Marcus gave --
10 turned in that report, the summary report, I had -- I had
11 the distinct concept that was a complete report. So if
12 there was -- if there's somebody else who was quarantined
13 that's not on that summary list by Marcus, I can't tell you
14 exactly how that happened. However, I know our concept was
15 to err in the direction of quarantining too many people than
16 not enough.
17 Q. More than --
18 A. Yeah, I don't know, it was late at night.
19 Q. See what I'm getting at? If we only quarantine
20 the people in Marcus' summary, okay, we missed a whole
21 boatload of people. But when we investigate, we find out
22 they were quarantined anyway.
23 A. I'm not -- I don't know that Marcus summarized and
24 debriefed everybody that came in contact with Lisa the last
25 couple of days. The direction was to do that, get in -- the
Page 3299 Image
1 direction was to find out who had been in contact with Lisa,
2 especially over the last couple of days, is I think what --
3 what the idea was. So he did the best he could.
4 After midnight, if he couldn't find Joe Blow or so
5 and so or so and so, you know -- I don't know. I didn't ask
6 him -- I didn't quiz him, now, is this everybody? I did --
7 I remember saying I was concerned that covered everybody who
8 needed quarantine. I don't know that his written summary
9 covered everybody.
10 But let's get to the point. When I looked at the
11 summary and compared it to the written hand notes, I recall
12 that this reflected accurately everything that was in those
13 written hand notes that I got.
14 Q. Okay. Then who was responsible for following up
15 with the quarantine? Who did that?
16 A. I can't -- I can only guess. I mean, it was -- it
17 was a hectic night. I don't know who did it.
18 To make sure they got quarantined?
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. That should be something that Security would do,
21 so probably Paul Kellerhaus.
22 Q. That's why I asked you the question. I think Paul
23 mentioned that he gave you a list of the entire people that
24 would -- that were involved with Lisa, which then would be
25 his responsibility, right, since he's in charge of Security?
Page 3300 Image
1 A. Oh, let me back up. I want to make sure I
2 understand what I'm answering.
3 You said earlier Paul Kellerhaus said he gave some
4 summary of documents --
5 Q. No, my question was, did Paul Kellerhaus give you
6 a list of all people involved with Lisa? And you said no.
7 A. Well, let me not make that so categorical. I
8 don't remember him giving me everything. Now, if he was
9 involved in helping Marcus and Marcus then gave me the
10 summary report, maybe Paul would say I gave Brian this
11 report because Marcus give me this report.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. You said -- I want to clarify. You said earlier
14 he gave something to me or Judy. Is that what you're
15 referring to?
16 Q. No, that's separate.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. That's a separate investigation all together.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. I'm talking now about the quarantine. The earlier
21 one was the investigation on what happened to Lisa.
22 A. I don't know. I can't recall as I sit here
23 Paul Kellerhaus giving me something. He might have, but I
24 don't recall him doing so.
25 Q. The Security Check, Sec Check; can you tell me
Page 3301 Image
1 what that is?
2 A. Confessional.
3 Q. Okay. When do we use it?
4 A. To find out if somebody is -- if they need a
5 confessional. If somebody's acting in a -- extremely
6 immoral, unethical, out of ethics.
7 Q. Somebody is suspected of being a thief, say, in
8 town, in Clearwater, you would give them a Sec Check to find
9 out if they really are being a thief?
10 A. That could be done.
11 Q. Now, is OSA advised of Sec Checks?
12 A. Can be.
13 Q. Not as a routine?
14 A. Not as a routine.
15 Q. It's not an automatic thing?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you aware that Lisa received Sec Checks,
18 okay, and stayed at the Fort Harrison Hotel for a couple
19 days in July and in August of `95?
20 A. I didn't know she had Sec Checks until you just
21 mentioned it, but I -- I heard that she had stayed at the
22 Fort Harrison once -- once before.
23 Q. Do you know what that was about?
24 A. As I -- yeah, I think. As I recall, she -- she
25 had had some similar episode, and I forget now who told me
Page 3302 Image
1 this, but she had some similar episode of flipping out,
2 going a little crazy and wanted, I was told, wanted to stay
3 at Fort Harrison, and had done that earlier that year. I
4 had heard early summer, sometime in the summer she had
5 stayed there once before for some days, came out of it and
6 went back to work.
7 Q. What documents would I subpoena and who would I
8 serve the subpoena on to find out about that incident?
9 A. If she was Sec Checked then, that should be in her
10 PC folder.
11 Q. Now, do you know, to your knowledge, if she was
12 Sec Checked just prior to her staying at the Fort Harrison
13 Hotel on November 18th, around then?
14 A. You mean that night?
15 Q. Or that day or a couple days before or, say, a
16 whole week before.
17 A. I -- I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't
19 Q. You don't have any knowledge of it?
20 A. No.
21 Sec Check means Security Check.
22 Q. Yes. I didn't know that, and I finally -- I
23 talked to somebody and they got me straightened out. We
24 understand. That's why I brought the thief thing up, you
25 know, if somebody you think is a thief.
Page 3303 Image
1 Now, earlier we got into a pretty good argument
2 about this Introspection Rundown and we cleared that up.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. What I wanted to ask you, from your knowledge of
5 the Church tech, Lisa goes PTS-III --
6 A. Psychotic.
7 Q. Yeah, she goes psychotic. We isolated her at the
8 Church, we brought her to the Church, either she wanted to
9 stay or the people who cared for her, like
10 Benetta Slaughter, wanted her to stay so she could get the
11 care short of going to Morton Plant. Right?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. What's the alternative to the isolation
14 watch? You know, I mean, according to the tech, what would
15 be the alternative on the isolation watch now? She -- I
16 know somebody told me, well, she could be better and we let
17 her go. Would that be true without auditing?
18 A. Yeah, that could happen.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. If Marcus -- if Alain wanted something else
21 done -- I mean, I guess the options -- I guess it's a
22 question --
23 Q. The Sec Check is confessional. And Sec Check is
24 considered auditing, right?
25 A. In -- in broad terms, yes.
Page 3304 Image
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. There's a distinction where Sec Checking may not
3 be considered auditing in certain cases.
4 Q. Okay. Would we bring her to the Fort Harrison and
5 keep her for 17 days after being PTS-III without a Sec Check
6 or auditing?
7 A. That could happen if she popped out -- my
8 understanding what had happened earlier in the summer is
9 that she'd come, stayed, you know, was having some similar
10 episode, stayed there, chilled out, left, and I don't -- I
11 didn't know until now. You just said she had some
12 Sec Checking back then. It's news to me. It could happen
13 where she won't get any auditing at all, it could easily
15 Q. The alternatives would be to stay there in
16 isolation, get better and leave the hotel?
17 A. That could happen.
18 Q. Okay. What would another alternative be?
19 A. I'm not highly tech trained. I mean, I just --
20 from what I know -- I mean, you're kind of asking what
21 technically would be done.
22 Q. Well, what I'm getting at, all the people we
23 talked to Mr. McGarry brought up, they were all under the
24 impression this was a isolation watch. When she was finally
25 soft and pliable and able to respond, she would go --
Page 3305 Image
1 undergo the Introspection Rundown, but yet that's not an
3 A. That's an alternative.
4 Q. That's all I needed. It is an alternative, the
5 Introspection Rundown?
6 A. That could be called for.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. I didn't know that was, but I made that point not
9 so clear before.
10 THE WITNESS: If I was unclear on that with
11 you, I apologize
12 Q. Being in charge of OSA at the time, who would you
13 expect to be in charge of Lisa's case? Who would be calling
14 the shots on Lisa's case?
15 A. Alain.
16 Q. The night that Detective Sudler and
17 Sergeant Teunis came or the day -- the next day to
18 investigate this, I understand from trying to read some of
19 the old reports that you were present and they had some
20 interviews that were conducted over at the --
21 A. Clearwater Bank building.
22 Q. Yeah. And there was a time when they were taken
23 to the room --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- where Lisa was kept. Were you with them at
Page 3306 Image
1 that time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Could you describe the room when you walked in
4 there that day to show the Detective and the Sergeant? Do
5 you remember?
6 A. Yeah. The room had been made up.
7 You mean like the state of the room?
8 Q. Yeah, what it looked like when you opened the door
9 to show the two Detectives, this is where Lisa stayed.
10 A. Yeah. The bed was made. The room was orderly.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. And we took them into the room. Tom Hilliard
13 didn't want to go in. He was, I'm not going in there. But
14 the other Officers did.
15 Q. Okay. One bed in the room, do you remember?
16 A. I think it was one.
17 Q. Okay. The reason I bring it up is that in reading
18 their reports, this was the -- this was, I don't want to say
19 the crime scene, God forbid, this is where this happened,
20 Lisa got sick there, she stayed there, got sick there and
21 was taken died en route to the hospital or at the hotel.
22 A. Or at the hospital.
23 Q. Yeah, or at the hospital.
24 This is the room that was presented to the police
25 as where Lisa was kept. And in reading their reports, there
Page 3307 Image
1 was never any mention whatsoever that this room looked
2 different. Now, I read through the caretaker reports, like
3 you have, and you come to find out that the room is trashed,
4 the room had two beds in it.
5 A. It might have had two beds in it.
6 Q. It only had one. The Officers indicate in their
7 reports there was only one.
8 So what I'm getting at, whose -- whose decision
9 was it to change this room completely from what it looked
10 like the night before when Lisa was carried out of this room
11 to the next day when it looked so beautiful, with water
12 there and --
13 A. Yeah, the night before I had directed someone to
14 disinfect the room on suggestions by Dr. Minkoff.
15 Q. Okay. For the meningitis possibility?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Okay. You see my concern, you know, if I
18 looked -- if I read their reports on where Lisa died, this
19 beautiful room with one bed in it only, completely nice,
20 with fruit on the fruitstand and water all over the place,
21 yet when I read the caretaker's report from the
22 5th of December it was a hell hole, there was nothing inside
23 the place, there was vomit and feces all over the room.
24 And I was trying to find out, that was your
25 decision only based on the meningitis, that's it?
Page 3308 Image
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I mean, the direction was to -- we asked
4 Dr. Mirikoff -- I asked Dr. Minkoff what should we do
5 regarding the room. And I don't know if we are talking
6 about this meningitis thing. And he said -- I said --
7 MR. NcGARRY: Is that December 5th? Is that
8 the night of December 5th?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. McGARRY: On the telephone?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 A. And I asked him should we disinfect that room.
13 And he said, Yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt -- it
14 wouldn't -- it wasn't like get down there and disinfect it.
15 It wouldn't hurt to do that, it probably would be a wise
16 move to do it. If someone straightened up the room at the
17 same time, it's probably what happened. My concern was --
18 Q. I want to say for the record, it went beyond
19 straightening it up. We had a room with two beds and it was
20 a room with one bed.
21 A. It might have had two beds in the room.
22 Q. It did not. It was kind of like the maids in the
23 Holiday Inn commercial you see on TV where they've got the
24 chain saw, buzz.
25 Why was Alain Kartuzinski demoted?
Page 3309 Image
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you find that -- and opinion again based on
3 your involvement with the Church -- anyone who had any
4 responsibility for Lisa whatsoever was no longer in the post
5 and they're all in a lower post?
6 As a law enforcement officer and a suspicious
7 person, what do I develop from that?
8 A. What I would do is ask specifics. It's a large
9 organization, there's a lot of ebb and flow up and down the
11 Q. I can't subpoena specifics.
12 A. I'll be candid. You think these people were head
13 rolled because of Lisa Mcpherson. I can tell you one, in my
14 case that wasn't the case. You may be -- you may be lumping
15 me in that whole generality.
16 Q. I am now. I didn't know you got demoted until
18 A. You should unconnect me with that.
19 Q. Undo that?
20 A. It wasn't related. Alain, I don't know. I don't
21 know what the circumstances were with Alain.
22 Q. And how would I find that out?
23 A. Ask Alain.
24 Q. Well, it's tough to ask Alain right now.
25 A. Well, okay.
Page 3310 Image
1 Q. But how would I find that out from the Church
3 A. I don't think it's something that is a written
5 Q. Well, there would have been a
6 Committee of EvIdence, right?
7 A. Possibly.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I don't know if a Committee of Evidence was done.
10 Person can be demoted -- without a Committee of Evidence a
11 person might be demoted.
12 Q. Your Committee of Evidence, where would that
13 report go?
14 A. I have a copy in my file.
15 Q. I could get it from your ethics folder, personnel
17 A. Ethics folder.
18 Q. So I can get it from there?
19 A. You can get it from me. I'll give you a copy.
20 Well, maybe I should ask Bob. Maybe you have to
21 subpoena it.
22 MR. POLLI: Just calm down.
23 THE WITNESS: Right. Sorry.
24 Q. Alain Kartuzinski was -- we already discussed
25 auditing and that answer came quickly out of you and I
Page 3311 Image
1 appreciate that. Who was responsible for her medical care?
2 A. I don't know if she was getting medical care.
3 Q. What I'm getting at --
4 A. There were Medical Liaison Officers --
5 Q. There were Medical staff, right?
6 A. -- who were trying to feed her, et cetera, and so
8 Q. All right. Who in the office by title, just give
9 me the title, would be responsible for her health
10 deteriorating or not?
11 A. I think the most directly related staff would be
12 those people in the Medical Liaison Office.
13 Q. All right. Okay.
14 A: Would be the most responsible.
15 Q. Were you aware that Janice Johnson was a medical
16 dodtor previously?
17 A. Previously, no.
18 Q. Okay. At the time that Lisa died and she was
19 taking care of Lisa, were you aware that she was a medical
21 A. There was some point in time I became aware of the
22 fact that she had earlier medical training and she also was
23 not licensed in Florida. I'm trying to remember when that
24 was. I don't think it was at that time, I think it was
25 sometime after that that I found out.
Page 3312 Image
1 Q. Sometime after Lisa's death?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I just had one question: Annie Mora, did
4 she work for you at the time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. What was her job?
7 A. She maintained files and -- in OSA.
8 Q. Okay. Now, what --
9 A. Some files, not all files.
10 Q. Would it be in her job description at the time
11 working for you to produce an investigation on Lisa's death?
12 A. I could see her -- her doing that. I didn't ask
13 her to do an investigation, but I could see her writing a
14 report on what happened.
15 Q. Okay. Now, differentiate between her and
16 Judy Fontana for me. They're both in your office and I'm
18 A. Right. Judy Fontana was -- she was the
19 Legal Officer and as such had the responsibility of working
20 with our attorneys on legal matters. Annie Mora, some of
21 her job description would include, if there was a person who
22 wanted to come to the Church and take services, if there's
23 some question as to whether or not they're qualified to take
24 services or not, like are they of good ethical standard,
25 certain criteria before they can receive auditing and
Page 3313 Image
1 training at the Church, some of those queries might come
2 through Annie Annie might --
3 Q. Do like a background on the person?
4 A. Sort of.
5 Q. If I went to the Church and applied to take
6 courses, Annie would check what I did for a living, where I
7 come from, stuff like that?
8 A. She could do that. That wouldn't happen in every
9 single case, but that might happen.
10 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I don't have any
11 further questions.
12 MR. McGARRY: That's it, unless you have a
13 burning question.
14 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: I've just got two
16 MR. POLLI: Has to be a burning question.
17 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Two questions.
19 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
20 Q. During Lisa's watch, and Sergeant Andrews hit on
21 it a little bit, we're not talking about her psychological
22 functions, at what point does someone become concerned and
23 responsible for her medical deterioration?
24 A. At what point do they become responsible? I don't
25 know the answer to that.
Page 3314 Image
1 Q. Because we're talking about a woman that lost a
2 tremendous amount of weight, obviously was having some
3 medical problems. At what point -- at what point do you
4 say, let's get her to a medical doctor and who says that?
5 Who makes that decision?
6 A. Well, I think that would be somebody in the -- the
7 MLO Office, Medical Liaison Officer's Office. At what
8 point, I don't know how one makes that decision. I mean, if
9 I saw somebody -- I don't know. I could just tell you what
10 I would do and that's about all I can tell you.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. If I saw somebody had a -- a toothache, I might
13 say, you need to go see the dentist: At what point do I --
14 Q. We're talking about somebody on isolation watch.
15 This is a special case.
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Isolation watch; cannot leave the room without the
18 permission of Alain Kartuzinski, and there's people there.
19 with her 24 hours at day.
20 At what point do the people in the room say this
21 is no longer a mental issue, now we're into physical
23 A. I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I think
24 there's some judgment involved in the person in the
25 MLO Office saying, I think she needs -- where she draws that
Page 3315 Image
1 line or they draw the line I don't know, but they would say,
2 look, I think she needs to go see a doctor.
3 Q. And the second half of the question and then we'll
4 be out of here --
5 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I got one more
6 after that.
7 Q. -- do they have to get clearance from Alain before
8 they make the decision to take her to the hospital?
9 A. I don't know what the procedure is on that. I
10 don't know what the Church -- what the internal procedure is
11 on that. I'm sure there'd been some liaison with Alain.
12 And I -- I say that because Janice Johnson had said that she
13 had contacted Alain at the point where they were going to
14 call the doctor, but I don't know the exact procedure on
16 Q. So he's ultimately responsible for her care,
17 physically and mentally?
18 A. I -- I think so. On the -- on the medical side, I
19 think the Medical Liaison -- I don't know, I think the
20 Medical Liaison staff would have some call.
21 Q. But they would have to confer with him?
22 A. I think so. I don't know what the Church --
23 Q. So ultimately he would be responsible for her
24 physical and mental care?
25 A. Well, that -- I would say that, if it's true that
Page 3316 Image
1 the MLO staff have to consult with him before they can make
2 the call to send her to the hospital. I'll tell you I don't
3 know what our Church procedure would be on that.
4 Q. Just another quick thing: At the beginning when
5 Mr. McGarry was asking you all these questions and before it
6 was clarified by your attorney, you said that
7 Miss McPherson -- and you've always called her "the woman,"
8 I don't think you said Lisa or Miss Mcpherson, but the woman
9 that died at your place, you said, was under the Church's
10 care. Is that a true statement?
11 A. That Lisa was under our care?
12 Q. That's what you said.
13 A. Yeah, I guess I wouldn't disagree with that.
14 Q. All right.
16 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
17 Q. I had a quick one: This is some things that I've
18 done on the reading, and it says omissions and complete
19 loss, and this is auditing folders, right, which would be a
20 PC folder, and then it says omissions from the folder and
21 complete loss of a folder is a very serious matter, okay?
22 We found so far that the caretakers' reports went
23 to Lisa's PC folder, but now there's several days missing.
24 The last three days are missing, two days are missing
25 earlier and there's actual shifts missing since that
Page 3317 Image
2 As I read, this is very serious and a
3 Committee of Evidence shall be formed to find out about the
4 omissions in the PC folder. Take a look at that. I think
5 it's the last thing here.
6 MR. POLLI: Well, see if that goes with this.
7 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
9 Q. So my question real quick is: To your knowledge,
10 since we have that -- that's existing right now, we have it.
11 The missing documents, the people have testified I wrote
12 them, I've turned them into Security, they're not there.
13 Did we have a Committee of Evidence formed in the
14 Church, to your knowledge, to find out who's responsible for
16 A. To my knowledge, no. And I don't know if that
17 policy says that would have to be done.
18 Q. It says "shall."
19 A. It says what it says.
20 Q. My curiosity, since we're missing the folders,
21 doesn't seem the Church is very concerned about finding the
22 missing PC files since we don't have a
23 Committee of Evidence.
24 A. I don't think that's --
25 Q. I can't surmise that?
Page 3318 Image
1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think a lot has been done to try to find the
4 missing documents there. In fact, I know a lot has been
5 done to find them.
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT. ANDREWS: That's all.
7 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: I don't have any
9 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
10 CONCLUDED AT 2:00 P.M.)
Page 3319 Image
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this __21st__ day
of ____August____, 1997.
RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
18 I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
19 I a relative or employee of any of the parties attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
20 nterested in the action.
21 DATED this __21st__ day 0f ___August___, 1997.
RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR
Page 3320 Image