Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Janet Merle Herring
Chief Officer, FLAG Service Org
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
STATEMENT OF: JANET MERLE HERRING
DATE: August 25, 1997
TIME: Began: 12:05p.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
Page 3770 Image
2 MARX McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
Robert P. Polli, P.A.
6 Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 1130
101 East Kennedy Boulevard
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
Attorney for the Witness
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
10 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
11 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
20 BY MR. NcGARRY 3
BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 32
21 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 36
BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE 41
CERTIFICATE OF OATH 42
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
Page 3771 Image
1 The deponent herein,
2 JANET MERLE HERRING,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
7 BY MR. McGARRY:
8 Q. All right. State your name for the record,
10 A. Janet Merle Herring.
11 Q. And where do you reside?
12 A. Clearwater, Florida.
13 Q. Is that the Hacienda Gardens?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you have a roommate?
16 A. My husband.
17 Q. Married, okay.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is he a Scientologist also?
20 A. Yes.
21 We've been married 18 years.
22 Q. Both Staff?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Date of birth?
25 A. X/52.
Page 3772 Image
1 Q. How long have you been in Clearwater?
2 A. Since 1979.
3 Q. And where did you reside before that?
4 A. I lived in X, California.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And before that I lived in Los Angeles. Prior,
7 Chicago. I'm born in X.
8 Q. All right. And the -- you joined the Church when?
9 A. 1977.
10 Q. And that was in California?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were you Staff or a parishioner?
13 A. I was a Public.
14 Q. Public.
15 When did you join Staff?
16 A. 1979.
17 Q. When you came to Clearwater?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. What caused you to come to Clearwater?
20 A. I wanted to work with Scientology and help people
21 lead better lives, basically.
22 Q. All right. And did you meet your husband in
23 California or was that here in Clearwater?
24 A. I met him actually in California.
25 Q. But you came here?
Page 3773 Image
1 A. But I came here, yeah.
2 Q. What post were you originally assigned to when you
3 started out in Staff in Clearwater?
4 A. I was a recruiter, worked in personnel.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. Interviewed people who were interested in working
7 in Clearwater.
8 Q. All right. And your present post is what?
9 A. I'm the Chief Officer of the Flag Service Org.
10 Q. All right. So your immediate -- your Senior is
11 Debbie Cook, right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Anybody in between you and her?
14 A. No.
15 Q. All right. How long have you had that post?
16 A. Since November 28th last year. Almost a year.
17 Not quite.
18 Q. All right. And when -- in November of '95, which
19 is when -- the period of time we're going to be focusing
20 on -- is when Lisa McPherson was staying at the Cabana, what
21 post did you employ at that time?
22 A. I was the Organizing Officer for the
23 Chief Officer.
24 Q. And the Chief Officer is?
25 A. At that time?
Page 3774 Image
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. It was Don Jason, and the Deputy was
3 Marcus Quirino. There were two, which was a Chief Officer
4 and a Deputy.
5 Q. Oh, all right.
6 A. But at that time --
7 Q. So what were your duties in '95?
8 A. I was running a project to train 500 students on
9 supervisor training program from all over the world. And I
10 was basically setting up the supervisors and the technical
11 staff to deliver the courses that these 500 people had to go
12 through. So I was pretty much full-time running that from
13 the morning till the evening. And it expanded from 300 up
14 to 700 people from around September, '95 through May, '96,
15 when I completed that project.
16 Q. When did you first meet Lisa McPherson?
17 A. I don't recall like personally meeting her. I had
18 seen her.
19 Q. Did you know her?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I mean, were you friends with her?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. When did you first become aware of --
24 did you become aware of an accident that she had that she
25 ended up in Morton Plant Hospital?
Page 3775 Image
1 A. I didn't know there was an accident, no. I knew
2 that she had like freaked out somehow, she had taken her
3 clothes off, started walking down the street with her
4 clothes off, that's what I was told.
5 Q. And who told you that?
6 A. Marcus.
7 Q. Quirino told you that?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. And was this sometime around the day of the event
10 that it occurred or is this sometime later?
11 A. It was the day afterwards.
12 Q. All right. And did you take action on that
14 A. Well, no. I was just -- he asked me to make sure
15 that the room -- that no one interrupted her sleep, because
16 she had to sleep. So I went to the front desk to make sure
17 the room -- the people in charge of rooms, the registration
18 receptionist would know not to interrupt her. And then when
19 she was well, she would pay for her room. In other words,
20 she wasn't going to come up and go through the normal lines
21 to register for a room.
22 Q. So Quirino was the person that told you she was
23 going to be staying at the Cabana?
24 A. She was already there.
25 Q. She was already there.
Page 3776 Image
1 And he's the one that, told you that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did he tell why she was there?
4 A.. She needed to sleep, rest, someone to care for
5 her. Did he tell you she was there for services?
8 Q. Why did he tell you that, 'cause that was under
9 your area of care?
10 A. Well, basically, I just am like a liaison terminal
11 in the situations like that, where there's -- because
12 there's an Org, there's a Flag Crew Org that runs the
13 hotels, then there's the epicenter that runs the delivery.
14 I am the liaison between FSO and Flag Crew, I knew the
15 receptionists. I went there and said there's someone who's
16 staying in this room, she probably hasn't gone to log in, to
17 pay for the room, she needs sleep, so when she's done she'll
18 come and see you and pay for her board.
19 MR. POLLI: I'm 50, I can't write that first.
20 THE WITNESS: I always -- am I too fast? I
21 always talk that fast. I'm from Chicago, north, what
22 do you expect?
23 MR. POLLI: Also, she's --
24 MR. McGARRY: She is keeping up, but her
25 fingers are smoking.
Page 3777 Image
1. THE WITNESS: Is that why it's cloudy in
3 BY MR. McGarry
4 Q. Okay. Did you go check on her in that room?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. So your only contact with the
7 Lisa McPherson cycle as of up to this point is that --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- you were assigned to go make sure the front
10 desk --
11 A. Knew, and that she wouldn't be disturbed. Because
12 I was basically on this project with these 500 people that
13 was full-time.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. And did you have any other involvement at all with
17 Lisa McPherson?
18 A. No.
19 Q. This is going to be shorter than I thought.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. How about Alain Kartuzinski, was he -- were you
22 made aware that he was the one in charge of looking after
23 her while she was staying there in the hotel?
24 A. Well, he's the Senior CS, he would be over anybody
25 that's receiving any kind of spiritual handlings.
Page 3778 Image
1 Q. She's there for straightening out and --
2 A. We have like 1000. Public there, so anyone would
3 fall under him that would be receiving any kind of service.
4 Q. Right.
5 Have you become aware now, since this has all
6 gotten to where it is right how, this blown up investigation
7 and press and the whole bit, are you aware now that she was
8 there for -- after she got calmed and became more normal,
9 that she would receive a procedure called an
10 introspection Rundown?
11 A. Yeah, that would be a standard thing.
12 Q. Right. And that's not -- that's not an unusual
13 scenario --
14 A. No.
15 Q. -- for what's she's going through, correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Had any of those ever gone on down there that
18 you'd ever participated in or knew of?
19 A. I knew of one, yeah. And he recovered, actually,
20 within a few days, so ...
21 Q. Was that in Clearwater --
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. -- or was that in California?
24 A. It was in Clearwater.
25 Q. It was.
Page 3779 Image
1 Who ran that one, do you remember? Do you
2 remember who the CS was?
3 A. It was years before and I don't even think that
4 person is here.
5 Q. All right. Who was Alain Kartuzinski's immediate
7 A. That would be the Qualifications Secretary.
8 Q. It wouldn't be Director of Correction?
9 A. Oh, that's true. That's the department head,
10 yeah. Technically -- administratively it's the
11 Director of Correction and technically would be the
12 Qualifications Secretary.
13 Q. Okay. Who are those two people?
14 A. Presently?
15 Q. In November of '95 and presently.
16 A. Okay. Presently, it's Kate Curley. And at that
17 time in '95 -- I think the post might have been vacant then
18 at that point.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. 'Cause I don't recall -- there was a period of
21 time when the post was vacant and that could have been that
23 Q. Well, if that is true, then if Mr. Kartuzinski
24 were to present a problem or need supervision or need a
25 Senior to tell him what to do in guidance fashion, who would
Page 3780 Image
1 that be?
2 A. The Qualifications Secretary, if there was no
3 Director of Correction.
4 Q. Who is that?
5 A. Kate Curley.
6 Q. Then too, back in November of '95?
7 A. I think so.
8 '95? I'd have to look at some records. I don't
9 recall. 'Cause there was a change between '94 and '95 on
10 that post. I'm not sure if she was exactly at that point
12 Q. Okay. What division does the MLO Office fall
13 under, your side of it or the OSA side? Your side?
14 A. My side.
15 Q. Your side of it?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Who makes changes in reference to MLO Officers?
18 Who do they report to? I
19 A. Well, the Director of Personal Enhancement, that's
20 the department head in charge of that whole section.
21 Q. The MLO Office. And who is that?
22 A. A.J. Sprecher, she was at the time. And presently
23 it's someone else.
24 Q. And who is it now, Do you know?
25 A. Paul Greenwood.
Page 3781 Image
1 Q. I know Paul Greenwood.
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. So if -- here's a situation or an area that came
4 up in the case that makes me curious.
5 You know Judy Weber, correct?
6 A. Uh-huh.
7 Q. She normally is the person that shows up at
8 Morton Plant whenever somebody, either Staff or Public, down
9 there has a problem. She made it very clear she's the big
10 schmooze down there with all the doctors and knows everybody
11 and has this great relationship between herself and
12 administration down there and the Church.
13 As a matter of fact, she was down there the day
14 that Lisa showed up down there with her problem. Of course,
15 eight other Scientologists showed up down there also, which
16 she indicated was unusual, but I guess when somebody runs
17 around naked in the streets and they're a Scientologist, it
18 gets people jumping.
19 So a bunch of people show up down there and she is
20 the person who personally convinced the doctor --
21 The doctor's name is Lovett? '
22 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Lovett.
23 Q. Dr. Lovett.
24 She personally said, I'm taking her out, I'll
25 sign, she's going to be with me, we'll take care of her.
Page 3782 Image
1 She had to personally sign, as well as Lisa signed herself
2 out too, but there's a document on hand that she did that.
3 Once they came back to the -- to the Church, she got yanked
4 from the whole thing. Who did that?
5 A. I don't know. I wasn't -- I didn't even know that
7 Q. Well, she didn't get to participate in the watch.
8 It was immediately taken over by Janice Johnson, and
9 Laura Arrunada was involved and all these other people that
10 were drafted to be caretakers.
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. But Judy Weber was not allowed to participate.
13 A. I didn't know that.
14 Q. Who would know the answer to that question in your
16 Well, let me ask you this --
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. -- who makes the decision on who's in charge of
19 what in reference to this watch here and the MLO and whether
20 Judy gets to follow through with what she said she would do?
21 A. I'm not sure, because I wasn't involved with the
22 cycle, who did what.
23 Q. Well, you kind of --
24 A. I'm kind of like --
25 Q. Your office is -- you're in that end of the
Page 3783 Image
1 building for those MLO things.
2 A. You have to understand, my office has 600 staff
3 under it.
4 Q. I know the layers are unbelievable.
5 A. So it's not like there's one person. I don't know
6 who would have ordered that.
7 Q. Well, A.J. Sprecher --
8 A. Did she? I mean, I don't know.
9 Q. But she would have been in charge of that --
10 making those decisions. Could she have made those
12 A. She could have.
13 Q. Who's her Senior, A.J. Sprecher's Senior?
14 A. Be the Qual Sec.
15 Q. And that's who?
16 A. Kate Curley.
17 Q. Do you know Judy Weber?
18 A. Somewhat. I wouldn't say I know her personally,
19 you know. I was ill once, she took care of me when I had
20 bronchitis or asthma or something like that once.
21 Q. She's been a nurse for 30 years.
22 A. Yeah, she told me. That's how I know her, yeah.
23 That's about it.
24 Q. She's a pretty head-strong person.
25 A. Yep.
Page 3784 Image
1 Q. Of all the people I talked to in this, she was the
2 one that was the most upset about it, very upset, mainly
3 because she thought it should have been handled another way.
4 A. Oh, I see.
5 Q. And it makes me curious. That's why I'm asking
6 these questions --
7 A. Sure.
8 Q. -- of you, why she didn't get to participate in
10 A. I have no idea.
11 Q. Well, who would be the best person to answer that
12 question? You're an officer in the place.
13 A. Yeah. I'm just trying to think who -- why that
15 See, she is a Staff Medical Liaison Officer,
16 normally wouldn't be on a Public handling, so she normally
17 would take Staff to the doctor and drive them around and
18 take them home if they felt ill type of thing. So she was
19 pretty flat out doing that most of the day. And if she
20 would have been off-post doing something else, that would
21 leave no one for the Staff, and there's 1000 Staff,
22 you know.
23 I don't know. Maybe Emma would know. I have no
24 idea. Emma.
25 Q. Emma Shamehorn?
Page 3785 Image
1 A. Yeah. She's the liaison for the Public and Judy's
2 for the Staff.
3 Q. Right.
4 A. But Emma would -- I mean, let's see.
5 Q. How about Suzanne?
6 A. Suzanne?
7 Q. Schnurremberger.
8 A. Oh, Suzanne.
9 Q. Green.
10 A. I don't know. Was she there at the time?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Possibly. But like I said, I don't have enough
13 information to say who says what, 'cause I wasn't on the
14 scene there.
15 Q. Right.
16 Did you ever see Lisa's PC folder?
17 A. I did the night after -- or was it the night --
18 the night it happened, I guess, the night that I was told
19 that she had died.
20 Q. Okay. Where were you when you saw that?
21 A. I was in my office, because we were trying to
22 figure out what happened, like how could she have just died,
23 and then what was going on. And so I -- I thought to look
24 at the back of the folder, there's a summary of a person's
25 medical history, to see if she had a history of strokes or
Page 3786 Image
1 blood clots or aneurysms or anything that would cause a
2 sudden, like, death.
3 Q. That was in her PC folder?
4 A. In the back, in the back of the PC folder you have
5 a medical history of everyone. So I wanted to look at that
6 to see if -- what could cause instant death.
7 Q. Okay. This is sometime late December 5th you did
9 A. Uh-huh. Must have been like eleven o'clock at
11 Q. All right. And who else looked at that folder
12 that you know, in your presence?
13 A. No one.
14 Q. No one?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did Debbie Cook eventually order up that file and
17 have it taken somewhere?
18 A. Not that I know of.
19 Q. All right. Who ultimately ended up with that
20 folder that night, do you know?
21 A. That's a good question. I don't know. I put it
22 back in the briefcase and the -- the person who couriers it
23 took it, 'cause I didn't need it after I looked at it to
25 Q. Describe the file to me.
Page 3787 Image
1 A. It was about that thick, you know.
2 Q. All right. So you're --
3 A. A little bit less. Maybe two -- two, two and a
4 half inches.
5 Q. Okay. And contained within that file is -- did
6 you see caretaker reports in that file?
7 A. I saw a couple, just at the top. But what I was
8 looking for was at the back, 'cause I figured she must have
9 a history of some kind of a physical -- you know, I thought
10 it was a blood clot or something. When I first heard it was
11 like that, (snaps fingers), I thought it was an aneurysm or
12 stroke. I wanted to see if she had, a heart -- chronic heart
13 failure or something or respiratory problems, I didn't know
15 Q. So you didn't go through and read any caretakers'
16 reports --
17 A. No.
18 Q. -- in reference to their observations of her stay
19 at the Cabana?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right. Who ordered up -- who ordered up those
22 files, that PC folder to -- to go to L.A.?
23 Did it go to L.A.?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. I've been told it's in L.A.
Page 3788 Image
1 A. I have no idea.
2 Q. Are you aware where that file is now --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- the PC file?
5 A. No.
6 Q. It's normally kept where?
7 A. Well, we have folder storage areas that are
8 confidential and they're kept in those areas.
9 Q. All right. I would suspect that this file would
10 have probably been kept on Kartuzinski's desk, at least
11 during the period of time that Lisa was staying at the
12 Cabana section of the hotel?
13 A. That would be --
14 Q. I mean, that would stand to reason --
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. -- because it's being loaded up with caretakers'
17 daily reports.
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. If you know, when did Brian Anderson look at that
21 A. I didn't know he did.
22 Q. Okay. Who is -- do you know who the person was
23 that was -- I subpoenaed a lot of that folder, and you
24 probably know this, but I obtained copies of various
25 caretakers' notes that were ultimately submitted to
Page 3789 Image
1 Kartuzinski and he actually put them in that folder. And I
2 subpoenaed them through the lawyers that represent the
3 Church. And they contacted somebody over there and said we
4 need to produce those, and some in fact were produced, there
5 are some missing.
6 Who is the person that provided those reports to
7 the lawyers that represent the Church?
8 A. I have no idea.
9 Q. Don't know.
10 Are you aware that there are some reports missing,
11 that there's some person out there looking for them?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know Glen Steilo?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know why he came from California?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. He's been here before.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. He worked before -- when I first came here he was
21 working here.
22 Q. All right. You haven't talked to him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. How many PC folders did Lisa have, do
25 you know?
Page 3790 Image
1 A. No idea.
2 Q. All right. After you reviewed her PC folder that
3 night, on December 5th, what did you do next?
4 A. Well, we were told that she might have had
5 meningitis, so I was arranging isolation for the staff that
6 had taken care of her. So setting up a room, getting clean
7 space, and waking the staff up, you know. That took most of
8 the night, to get them into isolation.
9 Q. Who did you do that with, anybody, or was that on
10 your own?
11 A. I did that with some other staff. I don't
12 remember who it was. It was 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning,
13 and we had to go to the Hacienda and wake people up and put
14 them in isolation and let them know they were not allowed to
15 come in until we had them checked out.
16 Q. Wasn't Marcus Quirino's job, in between actually
17 isolating them and finding them, didn't he interview all of
19 A. Yeah, he did. He was in another room
20 interviewing. I wasn't in that, but I was next door calling
21 the Hacienda and arranging the room, finding people to go
22 out there, set it up, get bedding, sheets and, you know,
23 that kind of thing.
24 Q. So after you went out to Hacienda Gardens yourself
25 and woke up people -- and where would you send them?
Page 3791 Image
1 A. To the room, isolation room.
2 Q. Okay. And --
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And where would Marcus Quirino interview them?
5 A. Well, he probably interviewed them in the
6 Fort Harrison.
7 Q. So they would go there first?
8 A. Yeah. Yeah.
9 Q. So they wouldn't go to the room first --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- they'd go to the Fort Harrison?
12 A. Yeah. Because there was a whole confusion, was
13 she -- or we didn't know was she contagious, and it was very
14 confusing, you know. Like the whole thing was a shocking
15 incident, you know.
16 Q. Marcus Quirino is in your department, right?
17 A. Yeah. He's Senior to me.
18 Q. He's the Deputy Chief Officer?
19 A. Uh-huh.
20 Q. Were you present when he did any of these
22 A. No. I was in the room next door when he was doing
24 Q. All right. Do you recall whether or not he
25 requested them to memorialize any of their thoughts or their
Page 3792 Image
1 stay with Lisa on paper?
2 A. I wasn't there when he did that, if he did that.
3 Q. Okay. How long did it take him to interview all
4 those people?
5 A. I have no idea, because I think I left -- let's
6 see. What time did I leave? Maybe 1:00 I went to the
7 Hacienda. He was still there when I left to go to the
8 Hacienda, so I don't know how long it took him.
9 Q. You went to the Hacienda for what purpose?
10 A. Set up the room, make sure people were gotten out
11 of bed, gotten to isolation, they understood -- so they
12 wouldn't be alarmed, like why am I getting woken up in the
13 middle of the night. It's alarming.
14 Q. Explain this room.
15 A. Normally when we have someone who's ill or
16 contagious disease, there's isolation, there's a room set
17 up, and it's men's and women's isolation, you know.
18 Q. You have a place that has available bed space for
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Is that in the hotel or where is that?
22 A. No, it's in the Hacienda. It's for the Staff.
23 Q. Those are empty rooms that can be --
24 A. Yeah. Staff has food and --
25 Q. So if you had someone who had contact with Lisa
Page 3793 Image
1 that had a roommate that didn't have any contact with Lisa,
2 you would separate them and put them in that room?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. How many people did you do that with?
5 A. I'm not sure. Maybe ten -- I'm not sure. Eight,
7 Q. How far is the Hacienda away from where
8 Marcus Quirino did his interviews?
9 A. Ten, 15 minutes. Ten minutes that time of night.
10 Q. Who was shuffling all those people from one place
11 over to that place and back to the other place?
12 A. Good question. I don't know. I mean, a lot of
13 Staff have cars, yeah.
14 Q. All right. - How many people did you ultimately
15 remove from their rooms and place in other rooms?
16 A. I don't -- I think maybe eight, ten. I don't
17 know, I wasn't counting.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. Just had a list of names and went and got them.
20 Q. You had a list?
21 A. Had, people -- people, you know, that were under me
22 went to get them, I just made sure that they did it. And
23 everyone was gotten into isolation just in case that was the
25 Q. Okay. Who were some of the people that assisted
Page 3794 Image
1 you with that procedure?
2 A. Oh, my God.
3 Q. Well, best you can do.
4 A. It was like two o'clock in the morning, I don't
5 remember exactly. I'd have to guess. I don't remember.
6 Q. All right. Were these people told that Lisa had
8 A. I don't know. They were told that someone -- they
9 were concerned that she had had meningitis. I don't know if
10 they were told that or not.
11 Q. All right. What was Debbie doing all this time?
12 A. I have no idea. I wasn't, like, involved with
13 her, whatever she -- you know what I mean.
14 Q. All right. Did you see Brian that night,
15 Brian Anderson?
16 A. No. I mean, I think I saw him on the 5th floor at
17 one point, but briefly, and then -- well, let me think if I
18 saw him. Brian, did I see him?
19 Q. How about the Fontanas?
20 A. No. I mean, if I did -- I was pretty much in
21 shock over the whole thing.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. Wasn't like --
24 Q. How about Benetta Slaughter, did you see her that
Page 3795 Image
1 A. Not that I know of.
2 Q. Following day?
3 A. No. The following day I was back on the
4 supervisor project.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. 'Cause I was in charge of these five -- big thing,
7 you know. No one to really turn it over to.
8 Q. All right. Did you have any conversation with any
9 other caretakers in reference to interviewing them in
10 reference to their contact with Lisa, Janice Johnson,
11 Laura Arrunada?
12 A. I saw Janice Johnson once, yeah.
13 Q. Okay. And what night was this, or day?
14 A. That was the day that she went to the hospital.
15 Q. That would have been December 5th?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Before she went or after she went?
18 A. Before.
19 Q. And what time of day was that?
20 A. Well, I think it was around -- I went in the
21 internship, this is a training area, and it was a break time
22 'cause no one was in there, and I think it was around --
23 must have been like mid-afternoon. They have a break at
24 3:45 to 4:00, it's like a coffee break, snacks, you know.
25 And I walked, in there and I saw Janice there. And
Page 3796 Image
1 I was like surprised, she didn't work in that area, she
2 works in another building. And I said, What -- she looked
3 very concerned, she looked distraught. She looked sort of
4 like -- you know, had this strange look on her face.
5 I said, What's happening? She said -- I said, You
6 look worried. Like, what's happening? She looked a bit
7 white, you know. She says, I'm worried about Lisa. -I said,
8 What are you talking about? She says, Well, she's doing
9 worse. I said, Well, they just told -- I thought she was
10 doing better. What's worse? What's worse? She said, she's
11 not doing well. I said, What are you going to do? She
12 said, I'm going to take her to the hospital. I said, That
13 sounds good, do that.
14 Q. What time was that?
15 A. It must have been four -- must have been four
16 o'clock. It was somehow when there was no one in that
17 course room. It sort of is a break to -- everybody sort of
18 goes out, have a cigarette, coffee.
19 Q. Was Janice the only person you had this
20 conversation with --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- or was somebody else involved?
23 A. No, I don't remember anyone else there. She was
24 there by herself. There probably were people in the
25 background, but I wasn't talking to anybody except her.
Page 3797 Image
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Be like if I was talking to him and you're sitting
3 over there. Like there's somebody there, but they're not in
4 the cycle.
5 Q. Okay. So the conversation that you had with
6 Janice was somewhat prophetic because later that night you
7 learned the information --
8 A. Yeah, I was shocked.
9 Q. -- she died?
10 A. Yeah. I was like, what? I couldn't believe it.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I looked -- I went like totally shocked. That's
13 why I thought, there must have been some kind of medical
14 thing, 'cause how could this just happen like that? (Snaps
16 Q. Did you speak to anybody else in reference to the
17 Lisa McPherson watch, in reference to what they observed or
18 saw with Lisa?
19 A. No. I wasn't even around at the time.
20 Q. Did you ever speak to Judy Weber again after this?
21 A. No.
22 Q. How about Suzanne Green?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Laura Arrunada?
25 A. No.
Page 3798 Image
1 Q. Who's in charge now at the Church as far as the
2 Lisa McPherson situation?" When I say "who's in charge," who
3 is it that -- did you ever talk to Sandy Weinberg or
4 Lee Fugate?
5 A. I did once --
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. -- about six weeks ago.
8 Q. All right. When those guys call over to the
9 Church and they need something, like I subpoena something,
10 who is it that they call?
11 A. I would presume it would be Ben.
12 Q. Ben Shaw?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. And he took over Brian Anderson's position,
16 A. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah.
17 Q. Yes or no?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He did, okay.
20 And that was when?
21 A. I don't know when.
22 Q. All right. And why did he take over
23 Brian Anderson's position?
24 A. I haven't been informed.
25 Q. Okay. You're not aware of why Brian Anderson was
Page 3799 Image
1 removed from that position?
2 A. No.
3 Q. All right. And have you ever known -- where does
4 Ben Shaw come from, California?
5 A. Yeah. He's also worked here before as well.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. I think I told you that, no? He was here when I
8 came here originally in 1979. I met him then, worked with
10 Q. Did you meet with Lynn Farney when this all
11 occurred also?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You haven't?
14 A. Just six weeks ago when I was asked some questions
15 about it and what my post was at the time.
16 Q. Farney asked you that?
17 A. I think that's the one that works with Lee. No?
18 Who's Farney?
19 Q. I assume he's a lawyer from -- I don't know if
20 he's a lawyer, I just know he's from California.
21 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: OSA, California.
22 Q. OSA, California.
23 A. No. I thought that was the guy that works with
25 Q. Lee Fugate.
Page 3800 Image
1 A. And what's the other guy?
2 Q. Sandy Weinberg.
3 A. Yeah, sorry. Sandy and Farney, I got them
5 MR. McGARRY: I don't have any other
6 questions. These guys would like to ask you a couple
7 of questions though.
9 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
10 Q. Suzanne Schnurremberger, what was her post?
11 A. At that time?
12 Q. At that time.
13 A. I think she was the Office Manager.
14 Q. Of?
15 A. For the Medical Liaison Office.
16 Q. Of the MLO?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Did she leave on her own accord or was she --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- transferred?
21 A. She got pregnant, wanted to go have a big family,
22 and that's what she wanted to do.
23 Q. When -- when you talked to Janice Johnson on the
24 afternoon of December 5th and she said Lisa wasn't doing as
25 well, did she describe that in a little more detail?
Page 3801 Image
1 A. She said that she had gotten dehydrated, she was
2 concerned that she was losing water. I was like, What does
3 that mean, losing -- how do you lose water? I never heard
4 of such a thing, losing water. And she says, Well, I don't
5 know. I said, well, what are you gonna do? She says, I'm
6 gonna take her to the hospital. I said, Okay.
7 Q. So she couldn't explain her water loss?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did she say --
10 A. I never heard of such a thing as water loss,
11 except when you have a baby.
12 Q. Did she say she lost weight?
13 A. No, she said she lost water. But when you lose
14 water, you lose weight, so
15 Q. Did she say she wasn't eating?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did she say she was unconscious?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did she say she had requested to go to the doctor?
20 A. No, not at all.
21 Q. This was, you said, 3:45 in the afternoon or
23 A. Yeah, probably 3:45, 4:00. That's when the break
24 time is. I just remember in the background there was no one
25 in there. Usually there's about 100 people in there.
Page 3802 Image
1 Q. So you got the idea that there was some urgency
2 about getting her to the hospital?
3 A. Yeah. She said she was gonna go right away, you
4 know, arrange it, whatever she had to do.
5 Q. She was gonna go right away?
6 A. Well, she says, I'm gonna arrange that, is what
7 she told me.
8 Q. Arrange it?
9 A. Well, car, whatever, transporting to.
10 Q. Okay. Have you discussed, other than with your
11 attorney and Weinberg and Fugate six weeks ago, your
12 testimony here today with anyone?
13 A. No. I didn't even know about this was gonna
14 happen, you know what I mean.
15 Q. Did you yourself write any reports of any
16 knowledge that you had about the Lisa McPherson case?
17 A. No, because I didn't have enough knowledge to
18 write a decent report.
19 Q. So you didn't write any reports?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you Clear?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Have you reached the level of Clear?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. You have access to all files?
Page 3803 Image
1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. You can read Lisa's PC files?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Did you read any caretakers' reports?
5 A. No. Just like I said, when I opened the folder
6 that night I saw there were reports. I went to the back,
7 because I was interested, there must be some medical thing
8 we didn't even know she had, some kind of -- like a heart
9 thing or, I don't know, a blood clot or something like that.
10 Q. Did you see the handwritten reports in there, the
11 caretaker reports?
12 A. I just saw a few. I just looked at a few.
13 Q. You did look at a few?
14 A. Yeah, but I didn't like read them, I was just --
15 Q. Did you see the dates on any, of those?
16 A. I wasn't looking for the dates, I was looking for
17 earlier -- medical history was what I was looking for.
18 Q. Were you curious about maybe that day, when she
19 passed away, the caretaker notes for that day, seeing as
20 Janice had told you she had gotten worse?
21 A. No. I was just looking for the medical history,
23 Q. I'm a little confused about this quarantine thing.
24 You say that everybody who had contact with Lisa was put
25 into quarantine. Why then were they taken to a populated
Page 3804 Image
1 place like the Fort Harrison to be quizzed by
2 Marcus Quirino? Shouldn't they have --
3 A. It was in the Coachman Building, it wasn't the
4 Fort Harrison. And it was the middle of the night and I
5 don't believe anyone --
6 Q. So all the people who transported those people
7 back to Marcus Quirino, they were quarantined also?
8 A. (Witness nod! affirmatively.)
9 Q. And you are quarantined also?
10 A. I don't know if I was quarantined or not. I'm
11 trying to remember. I didn't sleep the whole night. Let's
12 see, did I ...
13 Q. You would-certainly remember.
14 A. No, I didn't go in quarantine, 'cause I wasn't
15 touching any of them, none of them spit on me. I think you
16 have to touch somebody to get -- -
17 Q. You were in the car with them hauling them back
18 and forth?
19 A. No. I just drove my car, yeah.
20 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything
23 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
24 Q. Did you ever go to Lisa's room once she was
25 staying there at the Cabanas?
Page 3805 Image
1 A. I think the first day I went to see if the room
2 was there -- I mean, if there was a room, and there was.
3 You know, it was closed. And that was about it. The
4 curtain was closed and --
5 Q. Did you see anybody outside?
6 A. Never. I mean, only that once.
7 Q. Sitting at the room or anything?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Alain Kartuzinski, if he was in charge under the
10 Church technology --
11 A. Uh-huh.
12 Q. How would he be kept updated?
13 A. Normally you'd have a report, a daily report.
14 Q. Okay. Now, would it be -- from everything I'm
15 learning, that it would be very serious that he would be
16 updated, he would get these reports.
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. He would get these reports and read these reports.
19 Would it be conceivable, knowing his position in the Church
20 at that time, that he would not read those reports, that he
21 would just stick them in a file?
22 A. No.
23 Q. That would be, to your knowledge, that would be --
24 A. Ridiculous.
25 Q. Ridiculous, okay.
Page 3806 Image
1 A. Yeah, wouldn't ...
2 Q. Could Alain order -- did he have the authority to
3 order which MLO would take care of Lisa?
4 A. Well, he could request a specific person if he was
5 concerned -- you know, if he wanted somebody, I guess he
6 could request that, right.
7 Q. The reason I ask that, there's been testimony
8 previously he did request Janice Johnson to take care of
9 Lisa McPherson. Now, you've just confirmed that would not
10 be an unusual thing?
11 A. No. He could ask for help from someone, yeah.
12 Q. You are now Marcus Quirino's Senior?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. How did that work?
15 A. Well, it wasn't taken into account like who had
16 more training, more experience as an executive and higher
17 training and processing, and I was his Senior.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I'd had like 12 years of executive experience and
20 he had a few.
21 Q. All right. So he was Deputy Chief?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. And so you were Deputy Chief at one time, but now
24 you're the Chief Officer?
25 A. I was the Org Officer, and now the Chief Officer.
Page 3807 Image
1 Q. Chief Officer. So that's even higher than his
2 position was?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. What's his position now?
5 A. He's Director of Processing and he runs the
6 department with about 60 Staff that has -- delivers
8 Q. All right.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. What level have you gotten to? You said you were
12 A. OT-V.
13 Q. OT-V?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. Okay. Did you ever -- I wanted to ask you, did
16 you ever find any medical condition in the back of this PC
18 A. Not -- not anything that explained anything, no.
19 Q. All right. Did you find anything at all? Did it
20 have any remarks?
21 A. No, I don't recall anything unusual. You know,
22 Childhood diseases, you know, things that people get when
23 they grow up.
24 Q. Okay. Why is that medical report back there?
25 A. Well, we always want to be notified if someone
Page 3808 Image
1 has -- like if someone has diabetes or has a heart problem
2 or is on medication for physical ailments, so we know that
3 they continue to take whatever they need to take and know if
4 they are contagious. Like, for example, if someone had a
5 contagious disease, we want to know. Wouldn't want them to
6 come to the Org.
7 Q. Could another thing -- it's been testified some of
8 the auditing parishioners go through can be stressful, is
9 that another reason it's there, can be exhausting or
11 A. Really, no.
12 Q. Wouldn't be there for that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I find it kind of funny that you would not have a
15 medical folder, it would be in the PC folder, which is the
16 spiritual auditing.
17 A. Back of the PC folder has, you know, what the
18 person's history is as far as their education and their
19 training and their processing and medical history.
20 Q. Oh, okay. So everything in the PC folder is not
22 A. No.
23 Q. Oh, okay. I thought when they said PC, the
24 pre-clear folder, the auditing folder, I thought that was
25 all that --
Page 3809 Image
1 A. No.
2 Q. -- prebendary type stuff, but that's not the case?
3 A. There's a section about, you know, where they
4 lived and their training their, education.
5 Q. Okay.
6 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I don't have any
8 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Just one quick
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
12 BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
13 Q. When you were discussing with Janice Lisa's
14 deteriorating condition, did she tell you which hospital she
15 was going to take her to?
16 A. No, she didn't.
17 Q. Did you make a recommendation?
18 A. Not at all, no.
19 SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything
21 MR. McGARRY: All right. Thank you very
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
24 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
25 CONCLUDED AT 12:50 P.M.)
Page 3810 Image
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this __2nd__ day
of ____September___, 1997.
RUTH M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent and
17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
18 I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
19 I a relative or, employee of any of the parties' attorney or
counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
20 interested in the action.
DATED this _2nd_ day of ___September___, 1997.
RUTH M. MARTIN, RMR
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
Page 3811 Image