Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Humberto Fontana
OSA Director of Social Reform
From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE: )
LISA MCPHERSON )
PLACE: Criminal Courts Complex
8 14250 - 49th Street North
10 DATE: September 10, 1997
TIME: 9:00 a.m.
13 REPORTED BY: C. Diane Gilcrease
Deputy Official Court Reporter
14 Sixth Judicial Circuit
16 STATEMENT OF HUNBERTO FONTANA
17 PAGES 1 - 70
21 ROBERTA. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
22 P 0. BOX 35
CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34617-0035
23 (813) 443-0992
Page 3841 Image
MAK MCGARRY, ESQUIRE
4 ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY
14250 - 49th Street North
5 Clearwater, Florida 34620
Attorney for State of Florida
ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE
8 Robert P. Polli, P.A.
Barnett Bank Plaza, Suite 1130
9 101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Tampa, Florida 33602
10 Attorney for the witness
LEE STROPE, Special Agent
13 Florida Department of Law Enforcement
14 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
City of Clearwater Police Department
18 EXAMINATION BY PAGE
19 MR. MCGARRY 3
20 MR. STROPE 46
21 MR. ANDREWS 57
Page 3842 Image
1 HUMBERTO FONTANA
2 having been first duly cautioned and sworn to testify the
3 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
4 testified on his oath as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. MCGARRY:
7 Q. State your name for the record, please.
8 A. Humberto, H-U-M-B-E-R-T-O, Fontana.
9 Q. All right. You were subpoenaed her today.
10 forgot to mention this. You want to put something on the
12 MR. POLLI: Yes, sir. My name is Bob
13 Polli. I represent Mr. Fontana. And Mr.
14 Fontana is here pursuant to the state attorney
15 investigation subpoena that he has received. I
16 have talked to Mr. Fontana about Florida Statute
17 91404 which discusses his responsibilties and
18 also discusses the benefits of one of these
20 He understands he has immunity from
21 prosecution for any crimes that this
22 investigation encompasses and he is prepared to
23 be truthful and complete and is ready to proceed
25 BY MR. MCGARRY:
Page 3843 Image
1 Q. My name is Mark McGarry. I'm the prosecutor. We
2 are investigating the circumstances surrounding the death
3 of Lisa McPherson. Your name was provided to us pursuant
4 to our investigation as the possibility that you have
5 information surrounding these circumstances. This is Lee
6 Strope. Wayne Andrews, he is from the Florida Department
7 of Law Enforcement and Lee is with the Clearwater Police
8 Department. You probably know who these people are.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let me get some background on you. Date of
12 A. X 1956.
13 Q. And where do you currently reside?
14 A. I reside at X.
16 Q. How long have you lived there?
17 A. Little over a year.
18 Q. How long have you been living in X?
19 A. Since 1990.
20 Q. All right. Where did you live prior to 1990?
21 A. I live in Los Angeles.
22 Q. When did you join the church?
23 A. I joined the church in 1987 in Miami.
24 Q. 19 what?
25 A. '87.
Page 3844 Image
1 Q. In Miami?
2 A. Un-huh.
3 Q. Was that as staff?
4 A. As staff in 1987.
5 Q. Were you following the religion prior to being
7 A. Yes. I was a member of the church in around May
8 of 1986 and then joined the staff in September of 1987.
9 Q. You say '87. It sound like '90.
10 A. '87.
11 Q. From Miami where did you go?
12 A. I went the Los Angeles.
13 Q. Pursuant to the church?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. They sent you there?
16 A. No, I went there.
17 Q. You went there?
18 A. Un-huh.
19 Q. To further your studies?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Were you a staff member in LA?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What position did you hold in LA?
24 A. That's where I started, so I didn't -- I mean, I
25 did various functions. I was in personnel at the time.
Page 3845 Image
1 was recruiting and doing briefings and stuff like that.
2 Q. In LA?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what was your title when you left LA?
5 A. What we would call an expediter, somebody who
6 does a variety of functions and isn't quite posted yet.
7 Q. What caused you to move from LA? Did you move to
8 Clearwater from LA?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What year was that?
11 A. This was 1988. I think in October.
12 Okay. Why did you move from LA to Clearwater?
13 A. There was an opening in Clearwater that they
14 wanted me to fill. This was Director of Social Reform, so
15 that's where I came.
16 Q. All right. And were you married at the time?
17 A. No, I was not.
18 Q. Who is your wife, Judy?
19 A. Judy is my wife now. We were married here in
21 Q. All right. And 1988 when you came here from LA,
22 your post was Director of Social Reform?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did that post change at anytime?
25 A. It only changed -- well, no. I pretty much held
Page 3846 Image
1 that post even though I've held other posts as well.
2 Q. What section of the church organization is that
3 under? Is that in the OSA section?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Which is currently where you work?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Is that the section you have always remained in?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is that the section your wife is in?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What was your title? What was post title when
12 you were employed with the church during the period of
13 November of '95?
14 A. I was the Director of Social Reform.
15 Q. Same thing?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Are you that now?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You have been that all along?
20 A. Un-huh.
21 Q. What title did your wife have in November of
23 A. She was the legal officer.
24 Q. All right. And what are those duties?
25 A. She makes sure that buildings have all the
Page 3847 Image
1 rudiments in legally, fire et cetera, et cetera. She
2 would handle anything having to do with legal matters of
3 the church. I can put that generally. Specifically, she
4 would know more in details of her post.
5 Q. She have any legal training?
6 A. You mean outside of the church?
7 Q. As in law school?
8 A. Not that I'm aware of.
9 Q. You're married to her. You would know if anyone
10 here, right?
11 A. Of what I know, no.
12 Q. So what legal training she has would have come
13 from where?
14 A. Would have come from anything that she studied
15 while being in the church.
16 Q. She is not a lawyer?
17 A. No.
18 Q. That's my question.
19 A. She is not a lawyer.
20 Q. Do you have any legal training?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Not with the church or otherwise?
23 A. No.
24 Q. All right. Can you give me a better description
25 of exactly what you do?
Page 3848 Image
1 A. Yes. As Director of Social Reform, I work with
2 our parishioners to do community activities that would
3 help, like, any matters. Like I coordinate with our
4 activities in getting people off of drugs, the able
5 groups, Narcanon, Crimanon, Literacy, getting the study
6 technology that we have. I also work with Citizens
7 Commission on Human Rights to, you know, expose and
8 eradicate psychiatric violations of human rights.
9 Mainly my function is working parishioners that are
10 have an interest in getting involved in helping the
12 Q. Okay. Tell us about the other side of your
13 training. How far have you gone spiritually?
14 A. I'm at the level of Clear.
15 Q. Have you done anything about that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. When did you obtain Clear?
18 A. That was in October 11 of 1987.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Actually it was 1996. I'm sorry.
21 Q. All right. So how many posts are there in the
22 OSA office? Is that a viable question? How many people
23 work in that office?
24 A. Here in Clearwater?
25 Q. Un-huh.
Page 3849 Image
1 A. Maybe 7 or 8.
2 Q. Name as many as you can.
3 A. We have Brian Anderson, Mary Story. We have
4 Annie Morra, Alice Herbin, and have Glen Steilo, and Ben
5 Shaw and myself.
6 Q. And your wife?
7 A. And my wife.
8 Q. And most recent additions would be Glen and Ben,
10 A. Right.
11 Q. They came from LA?
12 A. Un-huh.
13 Q. And Brian's still in OSA, but he has had a title
it change, right?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. All right. You ever meet Lisa McPherson?
17 A. Nope. Un-huh.
18 Q. You ever see her?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you know who she was back in November of
22 A. Yes. After the incident, she was put into the
23 hospital. I knew who she was.
24 Q. Let's go to that day. How did you get word that
25 she was at Morton Plant or did you?
Page 3850 Image
1 A. I got word that she was at Morton Plant and I
2 think I came into the office, I think it was in the
3 afternoon, and then either my wife or Annie Morra may have
4 mentioned it me, Oh, there is a parishioner that just got
5 taken to Morton Plant. She was picked up. She had
6 something going on, some sort of a car accident, and there
7 was something, some problem with her taking her clothes
8 off or something like that. And so she mentioned to me
9 that she was taken to Morton Plant.
10 Q. Who mentioned that to you?
11 A. I think it was either Annie Morra or my wife.
12 Q. Why was that mentioned to you?
13 A. It was mentioned to me basically because I walked
14 into the office and we sort of keep each other briefed of
15 what's going on.
16 Q. Did you take action upon that information?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. What did you do?
19 A. I went over to Morton Plant.
20 Q. What time was that, do you remember?
21 A. It was in the afternoon.
22 Q. Okay. Did you go by yourself or did you go with
24 A. I went by myself.
25 Q. Did anybody else from your office accompany you
Page 3851 Image
1 there on their own or otherwise?
2 A. Annie Morra may have gone separately. I think
3 she was there. She may have gone in her own car.
4 Q. Did anybody else show up?
5 A. There were a few other people there from the
7 Q. Do you remember who they were?
8 A. Judy Goldsberry-Weber was there. I think Emma
9 Schamehorn was there briefly. I don't recall from the
10 church if there was anybody there or not.
11 Q. You called Benetta Slaughter. Was she there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know her?
14 A. Yeah.
15 A. How do you know her?
16 A. She is a parishioner and she has worked in
17 community activities, so I've worked with her in events
18 and stuff like that.
19 Q. How about her husband, do you remember him being
21 A. Yeah, I believe he was there.
22 Q. How about Alain Kartuzinski. Do you remember him
23 being there?
24 A. I don't remember him being there.
25 Q. What did you do when you got to the hospital?
Page 3852 Image
1 A. When I got there, I ran into Judy
2 Goldsberry-Weber. I asked her how she was doing and I
3 asked if there was any threat of her being taken into the
4 psychiatric wing.
5 Q. And she said?
6 A. And she said it wasn't determined yet.
7 Q. That was your main concern, correct?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Did you speak to anybody else besides her?
10 A. I may have just said hello, whatever, or, you
11 know, just with Emma Schamehorn. Well, I mean, this is
12 maybe a few minutes. My main conversation was with Judy.
13 Q. Did you speak to any doctors or nurses?
14 A. I spoke with one of the doctors there and the
15 psychiatric nurse.
16 Q. And the purpose of that conversation?
17 A. It was to let them know that I had a concern that
18 Lisa shouldn't go into the psychiatric wing. So I
19 expressed that concern.
20 Q. And your decision to do that is based on what?
21 A. It's based on evidence and our beliefs from what
22 we found that psychiatry does more harm than good. And I
23 had a concern that she might be raped in there or harmed
24 in some way.
25 Q. Were you aware whether or not that was her
Page 3853 Image
1 intentions or were you just offering those as your own
2 opinion? Were you standing in for her, for her wishes?
3 A. Well--
4 Q. Did you speak with her?
5 A. No, I didn't speak with her.
6 Q. How do you know that1s what her wishes were?
7 A. She is a member of our church. We are opposed to
8 psychiatric treatment.
9 Q. So you would assume then that that would be her
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Is there anybody that is a member of the church
13 that doesn't hold that position or is that pretty much
15 A. That's universal.
16 Q. That's part of the main concern. L. Ron
17 Hubbard's main attack is somewhat based around that
18 belief; is that accurate?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. All right. How long did you stay?
21 A. May have been there about an hour.
22 Q. And when and why did you leave?
23 A. Well, I left after Lisa was released.
24 Q. All right. Who was she released to?
25 A. I don't know that exactly.
Page 3854 Image
1 Q. Were you involved in the plan that she was
2 ultimately going to be taken to the Fort Harrison for rest
3 and relaxation and care? Were you involved in that
5 A. No.
6 Q. Who was?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Obviously, somebody that was there at Morton
9 Plant, correct?
10 A. Not necessarily. I don't know who made that
11 decision or how it was made or if it was her decision to
12 go there. I don't know.
13 Q. All right. How did she leave the hospital,
14 Morton Plant?
15 A. Well, I remember -- I think it was either Emma or
16 Judy told me, Oh, they released her, because I don't know
17 Lisa. And then she said, Yes, that was her. Then I saw
18 her. She walked out with -- there were a couple of people
19 that were walking out with her. And then that's how I
20 know that she was released. But that's all the data I
22 Q. Where did you go?
23 A. After that I went back to the Fort Harrison.
24 Q. All right. Did you speak to anybody when you got
Page 3855 Image
1 A. Yeah. I think I ran into one of the security
2 guards. I don't recall who I spoke to. He mentioned -- I
3 think I asked him, So she was released? And he said,
4 Yeah, I think she is coming here or she's here, which was
5 a surprise to me. I didn't know that she was going to the
6 Fort Harrison.
7 Q. So that's when you first learned she was coming
8 to the hotel?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Was there an explanation given to you about why
11 she was coming to the hotel?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Was there an explanation ever given to you as to
14 why she was coming to the hotel?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So when did you realize that she was staying in
17 the Cabana Section of the hotel?
18 A. In the Cabana, I know she was staying in the
19 hotel when I talked to that security guard.
20 Q. That's when you found out that?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. When were you made aware that there was a watch
23 that was being put together in order to give her 24-hours
24 care? That's assuming you know that. I'm not assuming
25 that. Do you know there was a watch that was put together
Page 3856 Image
1 to give her 24-hour care?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did you learn that?
4 A. It may have been a few days after that.
5 Q. And who did you gain that information from?
6 A. Somebody in my office that I think -- we sort of
7 keep each other briefed, right, so it was somebody, either
8 Annie Morra or my wife was saying, Well, yeah, she is
9 staying at the Fort Harrison. Somebody's taking care of
10 her. Several people are taking care of her.
11 Q. Do you know Alain Kartuzinski?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you speak with him about this?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Have you ever spoken the Alain Kartuzinski about
17 A. No.
18 Q. Was he in charge of this watch?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You're telling me right now to this day, you
21 don't know that he was in charge of this watch?
22 A. To this day, he was the senior case supervisor
23 from what I understand, which I didn't know until we have
24 all this information. Actually, I didn't know that Alain
25 was there at the time, because we had a former, other case
Page 3857 Image
1 supervisor that wasn't Alain. But I do know now that
2 Alain was the senior case supervisor at the time. And so
3 he would be over technical matters of the counseling.
4 Q. Were you aware she was there to receive some
5 counseling or some type of cycle?
6 A. I remember, I think, either Annie, it may have
7 been Annie or my wife, that eventually that she wanted to
8 go in for counseling. But I remember being briefed on her
9 not resting well or something. She wasn't able to go in
10 on counseling yet.
11 Q. Okay.
12 Q. Did you stop by to see her down there?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did anybody in your office?
15 A. Not to my knowledge. If they did, I wasn't
16 briefed on it.
17 Q. When did you learn that she had passed away?
18 A. I learned the night that she passed away. I came
19 into the office and it was either Annie or my wife was
20 there and they told me that Lisa had died on the way to
21 the hospital.
22 Q. What time was that?
23 A. It was in the evening, maybe around 9 or 10,
24 something like that.
25 Q. What did you do when you heard that?
Page 3858 Image
1 A. Well, I asked questions.
2 Q. Who did you ask the questions?
3 A. I asked whoever, either Annie or Judy. I said,
4 What happened? What do you mean she died? How?
5 Q. Did you ever talk to Dr. Minkoff?
6 A. You mean at that time?
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Do you know who he is?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Does he know you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You guys friends?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. At that time you didn't talk to him?
16 A. Un-un.
17 Q. Have you talked to him since this occurred?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In reference to the Lisa McPherson situation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was that conversation? And when was that?
22 A. That was last year when the investigation renewed
23 and it was all over the media and I think it was in
24 reference of just coordinating legal matters, hooking them
25 up with -- because since I know him, when Ben and Glen
Page 3859 Image
1 arrived, they would ask me to call Dr. Minkoff and they
2 were in touch with the attorneys and so forth. It was to
3 that degree I was in touch with David Minkoff.
4 Q. That night of December 5th, there was a couple of
5 assemblies that were done in reference to handling the
6 situation and in reference to what possibly could have
7 been an infectious disease. Were you involved in that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you aware that that occurred?
10 A. Not until recently or maybe afterwards or
11 something. I wasn't aware that there was a quarantine or
13 Q. There was also a couple of meetings in which many
14 of the caretakers were debriefed. Were you aware of that?
15 A. Not until recently.
16 Q. That's pursuant to this investigation?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Marcus Quirino was involved. Is he a member of
19 the OSA office? He is from another section, right?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. What section?
22 A. Flag Service Organization.
23 Q. Lisa's folders, PC folders, ended up in your
24 office according to Annie Morra. Do you know why that
Page 3860 Image
1 A. No.
2 Q. They're not normally kept there?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. They're normally kept in another section of the
6 A. Right.
7 Q. Mr. Kartuzinski would have had possession of the
8 folder if he was in charge of her as the senior case
9 supervisor, right?
10 A. Un-huh.
11 Q. And your office ended up with those folders boxed
12 up. Did you ever see them?
13 A. When I arrived back from Los Angeles in around
14 May or June of '96, I remember seeing a few folders in the
15 office. And I don't remember them being boxed up, but I
16 think there were a few folders.
17 Q. When you say a few folders, whose folders?.
18 A. Lisa's.
19 Q. Her folders were lying around the office in May
20 or June of '96?
21 A. Yeah. There were a couple there, 2 or 3.
22 Q. In your office?
23 A. Un-huh.
24 Q. Where did you see them, whose desk? Who had
25 control of them? Whose custody?
Page 3861 Image
1 A. Well, it was there in the legal office, or I
2 think they were in the legal office.
3 Q. That was in April or May did you say?
4 A. No. May or June.
5 Q. May or June of 1996. Were they in a box or were
6 they individual folders lying out?
7 A. They could have been in a box. I just remember
8 seeing the folders.
9 Q. Describe it. How big? How many?
10 A. There were maybe a couple folders. They're about
11 this fat.
12 Q. You're describing what could be --
13 A. Manila envelope.
14 Q. You describe what could be 3 or 4 inches thick?
15 A. Each maybe a couple to 3 inches thick. They are
16 PC folders.
17 Q. That would contain auditing?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. They would also contain the caretaker's notes
20 that I got some of. Are you aware of that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You're not aware that the caretaker's note were
23 being routed to Alain Kartuzinski?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you aware of that now?
Page 3862 Image
1 A. Right.
2 Q. You weren't aware of it then?
3 A. No.
4 Q. When did you become aware of it?
5 A. About a week ago.
6 Q. That some of these caretaker's notes were in
7 those folders?
8 A. Un-huh.
9 Q. And that information was gained to you through
10 the lawyers in this case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you ever open those folders or gaze upon any
13 of the contents of those folders?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You're saying that you saw them, but you didn't
16 look at them?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Who was in charge of them?
19 A. Well, it would be my wife.
20 Q. So she had the possession of them?
21 A. Yeah. They were in her office.
22 Q. Where are they now?
23 A. I have no idea. They could be in the warehouse
25 Q. Let me ask you this. Are they in your office?
Page 3863 Image
1 A. No.
2 Q. Are they in the OSA office?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Are they in there anywhere?
Q. Any Lisa McPherson documents in your office right
7 now at all?
8 A. To my knowledge, no.
9 Q. That's all I'm asking, the best you got.
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you aware that sometime along the way here
12 they were shipped to LA? Were you aware of that?
13 A. I don't know about all of them, but I remember my
14 wife telling me that she was sending some to LA.
15 Q. Okay. Do you know whether she did that at the
16 request of somebody or she was just doing that because
17 that's the normal course of business for the church?
18 A. Well, it's not the normal course of business.
19 Q. To send folders to LA?
20 A. Not necessarily, unless somebody is getting
21 counseling or something would be probably --
22 Q. She is dead at that time?
23 A. Right. It's either a request or for some reason
24 she decided to send it there. I don't know which of the 2
25 it was.
Page 3864 Image
1 Q. Annie Morra told me she boxed them up to send
2 them to LA. I was kind of curious as to who told had her
3' and why and who requested them. Do you have any of that
5 A. No, I don't. But if she did them, it may not
6 have been in the legal area and maybe she just handled it
7 from a request from --
8 Q. Whoever?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. In LA?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Do you remember when this was done?
13 A. I don't remember, but it must have been done
14 after May or June of '96, I assume at least, unless she
15 sent something at another time, but that's what I recall.
16 Q. Would you say your wife has a little more
17 knowledge in the routing and the contents of these folders
18 than you do?
19 A. For the ones that were in the office, in her
20 office at the time, yes, she would have more data.
21 Q. They were specifically in her office within the
23 A. I'm pretty sure they were. Again, I mean, they
24 could have been Annie's office. I thought I saw them in
25 the legal office.
Page 3865 Image
1 Q. Did you ever meet Bob Johnson the original
2 lawyer? Did you meet with him?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. What was the purpose of that meeting? I don't
5 want any privileged communication, but the purpose of that
6 meeting was what, debriefing?
7 A. Basically where the case was at that time.
8 Q. That was way back in December right after she
9 died, right?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Later on?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Bob Johnson was later on?
14 A. Well, the times that I had anything to do with
15 Bob Johnson, it was later on. It was after May or June of
17 Q. So you're not aware of who ordered the folders
18 from LA?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know Kathy O'Gorman?
21 A. Yes, I know her.
22 Q. Who is she?
23 A. She is the person that works in the OSA office in
24 Los Angeles.
25 Q. Kathy O'Gorman?
Page 3866 Image
1 A. O apostrophe Gorman.
2 Q. She is the data chief?
3 A. Un-huh.
4 Q. You ever talk to her about this case?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Has your wife, that you know of?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So she's a data chief at OSA International?
9 A. Un-huh.
10 Q. How do you know her?
11 A. I've been up in Los Angeles. I know a lot of the
12 The people that work there.
13 Q. Just as a guess, would you think that she would
14 have knowledge about these PC folders?
15 A. As a guess, she may or may not.
16 Q. That's --
17 A. I mean, I really --
18 Q. That's good, an I don't know.
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. How about Ken Long, you know him?
21 A. Yeah, I know Ken.
22 Q. What does he do?
23 A. He works in the legal department.
24 Q. In LA?
25 A. Yeah.
Page 3867 Image
1 Q. How about him, you ever talk to him in reference
2 to the Lisa McPherson case?
4 Q. How about Carol Oakes?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Where is she?
7 A. She works in the office as well.
8 Q. Your office or out there?
9 A. No, out there.
10 Q. You talk to her about this case, Lisa McPherson?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You have some conversation with Brian Anderson
13 about the handling of this case way back when, when it
14 first happened?
15 A. Nope.
16 Q. You didn't?
17 A. Un-un.
18 Q. Who was he getting his information from in
19 reference to being the spokesman for the church?
20 A. Well --
21 Q. He was the one that was making all the speeches
22 at the time.
23 A. Right.
24 Q. So where did he get his data?
25 A. Well, Brian was the CO at the time. So he would
Page 3868 Image
1 be in touch with the attorneys and he would probably be
2 coordinating with church attorneys in Los Angeles.
3 Q. Which are who?
4 A. I don't know at the time who they had.
5 Q. Who are they now, do you know?
6 A. Well, one is Elliott Abelson. He's the lead
7 counsel. Helena Coburn, and Bill Dresher and there may be
8 other attorneys.
9 Q. All right. When did Ben Shaw and Glen Steilo
11 A. I think it was around November of '96.
12 Q. Okay. Why did they arrive? Did they arrive in
13 reference to Lisa McPherson?
14 A. They arrived to help out. Lisa McPherson was
15 definitely something that we needed help on down here.
16 There were also other matters going on that we needed help
18 Q. To the best of your knowledge, what was the
19 purpose of Glen being here?
20 A. To help our office out. We were under manned and
21 there was a lot of activity. Lisa McPherson was one, but
22 we also had 98 ROCK going into our lobby announcing from
23 the lobby. There was all this other activity going on
24 during that time period.
25 Q. Did he ever debrief you? Did you have a
Page 3869 Image
1 conversation with him about what you knew about the record
2 keeping in this business or any other matters involving
3 Lisa McPherson? He never talked to you?
4 A. Not specifically about this case.
5 Q. How would you characterize his job description?
6 What is his title, his post?
7 A. Now Ben is holding the CO post.
8 Q. What about Glen?
9 A. Glen is the legal officer.
10 Q. Why was Ben called to take over the CO post?
11 Because of this flap?
12 A. I wouldn't say it was because of this flap. I'd
13 say in general. I was holding the CO post temporarily and
14 I was holding the Social Reform and basically I never got
15 replaced on the Social Reform.
16 Q. When did you take over the CO post?
17 A. In May or June of '96.
18 Q. And why was that?
19 A. Well, Brian got removed and --
20 Q. Why was that?
21 A. Well, he was doing poorly on post.
22 Q. So I take it then, there was some type of
23 Committee of Evidence that was taking place for Brian at
24 the time?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3870 Image
1 Q. Okay. And as a result of that Committee of
2 Evidence, he was removed from the post?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And reassigned to another position and you took
5 over as temporary CO?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. So that date was when?
8 A. It was either end of May or beginning of June of
9 '96, May 30 or the first days of June.
10 Q. When did Ben Shaw get here?
11 A. November '96.
12 Q. And took over for your position?
13 A. He didn't take over right away, but he assumed
14 some of the functions and was helping out just in general.
15 Q. So you had the title for a while as being in
16 charge of the whole place?
17 A. Right. As well as, I never let go of the other
18 title. I was over it.
19 Q. You took Brian's position?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. So theoretically everybody answered to you at
22 that time?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Let me ask you this then. Shortly thereafter in
25 the beginning of this year, I sent a bunch of subpoenas to
Page 3871 Image
1 the lawyers in this church and they asked that I served
2 them upon them. And those people are Sandy Weinberg and
3 Lee Fugate and Laura Vaughan. And they requested that I
4 do so, rather than send them to you directly, and I did.
5 And I subpoenaed a bunch of documents being held by the
6 church. I assume that you were in charge of the church or
7 at least co in charge of the church along with Ben Shaw as
8 he starts to assimilate into that position from LA?
9 A. Un-huh.
10 Q. When those lawyers pick up the phone and call
11 your place, I assume they called your place?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Who would they talk to when they say, State
14 attorney just subpoenaed some records?
15 A. They would talk to Glen or Ben.
16 Q. Not you?
17 A. Not at that time.
18 Q. So all the, communications that's been going on
19 between the church and the lawyers that represent the
20 church here locally in Clearwater is through Glen or Ben?
21 A. Un-huh.
22 Q. Those are the 2 people?
23 A. Yep.
24 Q. All right. So when documents are gathered and
25 handed over to the lawyers to hand to me, who does that?
Page 3872 Image
1 A. Probably would be Glen.
2 Q. Glen does that?
3 A. Probably. I haven't been here. For him, if
4 there was anything ever done from his position, it would,
5 probably be him.
6 Q. What if it was done before he got here, because
7 I'm not sure of your time frame here. I spoke to Glen at
8 length, a very long time, and at the time that I
9 subpoenaed all those documents, the caretaker's notes and
10 all that, he wasn't around. All right. Is that correct?
11 MR. STROPE: Yes.
12 MR. McGarry: He says he didn't have
13 anything to do with that.
14 MR. ANDREWS: February 4, 1997, we
15 subpoenaed the documents. He was not here. He
16 was in Los Angeles at the time. I don't know if
17 he left. He didn't accept the subpoenas
19 THE WITNESS: This is 1997, this year.
20 BY MR. MCGARRY:
21 Q. This year, February. My question is, who, if he
22 didn't gather those records and give them to me or give
23 them to the lawyers to give to me, who did?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. I'm not so sure -- I'm running out of people to
Page 3873 Image
1 ask that question. You guys think of who's left?
2 MR. ANDREWS: David Mescavage.
3 BY MR. MCGARRY:
4 Q. So you don't know within your office?
5 A. I left for LA myself at the end of February and
6 this subpoena was what, beginning of February?
7 Q. Un-huh.
8 A. Judy had gone to Los Angeles in January. I don't
9 know where the subpoena went to that the data was
11 Q. Who was in charge of OSA January and February?
12 A. It was between Ben and myself.
13 Q. And you're saying Ben got there in November?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Permanently?
16 A. Well --
17 Q. He moved here and didn't go back to LA in
18 November of '96?
19 A. Well, I think they have gone back and forth, both
20 he and Glen a few times.
21 Q. Where does he live?
22 A. He came from Los Angeles.
23 Q. He is living here?
24 A. He's living here now.
25 Q. Sleeps here?
Page 3874 Image
1 A. He sleeps here.
2 Q. Everyday?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Did that start in November of '96?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Did he take the title? Did he take
7 the post?
8 A. He took the title when I left Officially.
9 Q. That would have been February?
10 A. That would have been late February. He was
11 already handling matters having to do with Lisa.
12 Q. His helper is Glen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So somewhere among you 3, Glen, Ben or you, would
15 be the highest ranking individual outside of Brian in
16 reference to the church?
17 A. Here locally.
18 Q. Right. That's what I'm talking about.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. So it had to be one of you 3, I would assume,
21 that the lawyers would say, Hey, I have a subpoena.
22 need some records, if they exist, for the State attorney
23 who subpoenaed them.
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. You're telling me you had nothing do do with
Page 3875 Image
2 A. No.
3 Q. Nothing?
4 A. Un-huh.
5 Q. You didn't know anything about the subpoena for
6 those caretaker's notes?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And you were in charge of the whole place?
9 A. By title, yes.
10 Q. How is it you can be in charge of the whole
11 place, Lisa McPherson's a pretty big deal, and they're not
12 letting you know what the hell's going on as far as the
13 State Attorney subpoenaing records?
14 A. Because we were undermanned. That side of the
15 Lisa McPherson case was mainly being handled by Ben and
16 Glen and I wasn't really on anything having to do with
18 Q. I've got a problem, because I talked to Glen.
19 I'm going to talk to Ben too, so you can go back and tell
20 him he is on the list. Glen says he doesn't know nothing
21 about the gathering of those records. He says he wasn't
22 here for that. I want to find out who gathered up the
23 caretaker's notes. You didn't know and you were in
25 A. I don't know.
Page 3876 Image
1 Q. Brian Anderson didn't know either. I just wanted
2 to throw that out there because I asked him. Who would
3 know the answer to that question?
4 A. Ben.
5 Q. You're as high a person as I've talked to along
6 with Brian. I've talked to Cook as well. She didn't know
7 either. Who picks up the phone in your office when the
8 lawyers in Clearwater say, State Attorney subpoenaed some
9 documents. Clearwater Police Department subpoenaed some
10 documents. We need them, if you got them.
11 A. Ben or Glen.
12 Q. Who picked up the phone in February?
13 A. I don't know. It wasn't me.
14 Q. Did you know where those PC folders were in
15 February of this year?
16 A. No, I could guess but --
17 Q. Take it. Go ahead.
18 A. It could have been in the folder warehouse with
19 the rest of the PC folders that we store.
20 Q. So you think they got shipped back from LA?
21 A. No, I have no clue.
22 Q. Of all the people in that church, you're probably
23 one the highest ranking people around there, right? So if
24 you don't know, I want you to tell me as best you can who
25 I subpoena to answer that question. Where was the files?
Page 3877 Image
3. Where were the folders? When they left, when they came
2 back, who went in them and got the stuff out of them to
3 give the lawyers to give to me. I want to know who that
4 is. Tell me who that is.
5 A. If you have already talked to Glen, then that
6 would be Ben.
7 Q. All right. Ben is the last guy. Anybody else?
8 A. No, not that I can see from --
9 Q. You think Ben will know the answer to that
11 A. He should, but I don't speak for Ben.
12 Q. What if Ben wasn't around during the time that
13 we're talking about these documents? Ben wasn't around
14 until recently, fairly recently. Same with Glen.
15 A. We were talking about February --
16 Q. We are talking the folders taking a trip to LA.
17 We're talking maybe back from LA. We're talking about
18 caretaker's notes being pulled from the folder and given
19 to lawyers. Some of this may have occurred before Ben
20 arrived on scene here.
21 A. You have Annie Morra, who obviously shipped them
22 out at a certain date. My wife would know something
23 maybe. She would be involved. You already have Brian.
24 You have from me. I actually was not privy to a lot of
25 those folder transfers. You have talked to -- Glen and
Page 3878 Image
1 Ben are the most recent.
2 Q. And Brian?
3 A. That's about all I know from our structure that
4 would have information.
5 Q. You don't know where the folders are now?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Who knows that?
8 A. Glen would be able to the find out, if he doesn't
10 Q. Who sat on the Committee of Evidence for Brian
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Who was the person that told you that you were
14 taking his position?
15 A. That was Roman in Los Angeles.
16 Q. Who is he?
17 A. He is a staff member in Los Angeles.
18 Q. He called you and said you're taking over?
19 A. He asked me if I wanted to, if I would take over
21 Q. When did he do that?
22 A. Around beginning of March, late February, when I
23 arrived in Los Angeles.
24 Q. Of this year, 1997?
25 A. No.
Page 3879 Image
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Still Ben and Glen had not arrived yet?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. My question back to that is, you're not being
5 briefed with Lisa McPherson as the top guy now from that
6 period until when they get here?
7 A. When I arrived here, Lisa McPherson, all the
8 investigation that occurred was over. It didn't start
9 flaring up until whenever it flared up. It was November
10 or October.
11 Q. Were you ever told by Brian Anderson that he
12 destroyed some of the records that were involved in this
13 December 5th/6th Marcus Quirino inquiry as to what the
14 caretakers knew?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Being in charge of the whole church at that
17 juncture -- you were not yet but soon to be -- would that
18 have been a breach of L. Ron Hubbard's text, destroying
19 notes or communications between, you know, church members?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It wouldn't be?
22 A. No. It's a decision -- I mean, if you have no
23 use for something, we shred it.
24 Q. Okay. Why did you go to LA during that period of
25 time that you are talking about in '96?
Page 3880 Image
1 A. Well, I went over there because I was asked to go
2 out and I went for some training. I was asked if I wanted
3 to temporarily hold the post.
4 Q. In LA?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. What post was that?
7 A. No. The post here. So I went over there. I was
8 asked -- I took some courses as well. And then I came
9 down here in May or June.
10 Q. Was there any discussion in LA while you were
11 there in reference to now you are taking charge of the
12 senior post here in Clearwater, that this Lisa McPherson
13 thing was going to be a priority for your concern? Did
14 that ever come up in LA?
15 A. Un-un.
16 Q. You weren't briefed on any of that in LA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Never had any discussions about it in LA?
19 A. It was mentioned, yeah, but that was winding down
20 back then. It wasn't -- that wasn't the issue. I was
21 coming over to help out, you know, man up the office some
22 more and more people in there and so forth.
23 Q. When did you go to LA during the '96 period and
24 when did you come back?
25 A. I left at the end of February. I left -- I was
Page 3881 Image
1 gone to the ship for 3 weeks, came back for a few days and
2 left to LA in March. So it was like at the end of March
3 is when I finally ended up in LA for this particular thing
4 of replacing Brian. But I was gone from this area from
5 around the end of February. So then during that period, I
6 was gone for about 3 months, March, April, May. The end
7 of May. I arrived, May 30th, June 1st, somewhere around
8 there, '96.
9 Q. When you get back, you're basically in charge?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Now, Steve Harlan, he is a local guy, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You know him?
14 A. Yep.
15 Q. He is in charge of folders?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Did you speak to Janice Johnson about this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Never?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How about Judy Goldsberry-Weber, other than the
22 night you saw her there at Morton Plant?
23 A. Well, I've talked to her a couple times, I think,
24 after that, that she may have -- that we may have talked
25 and said how is it going.
Page 3882 Image
1 Q. She was MLO there, right, and you think she would
2 know how it was going better than you. She was a lot
3 closer to it than you. You didn't even know there was
4 a --
5 A. This is later on I talked to her, like, when I
6 came back.
7 Q. After it all ended?
8' A. Yeah.
9 Q. You didn't talk to her at all during this watch?
10 A. No.
11 Q. She lost her post as well; is that correct?
12 A. I don't know if you could put it lost. She is in
13 another area now. -
14 Q. She is not in MLO, right?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. She is in seamstress now, right?
17 A. I don't know where she is. I haven't been here
18 in 6 months myself. I'm not sure what post she is
20 Q. Where have you been?
21 A. LA.
22 Q. Up until recently?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. The purpose of the last trip was what?
25 A. I had counseling and took some courses.
Page 3883 Image
1 Q. You have been out there 6 months?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. So when did you leave this last trip?
4 A. End of February.
5 Q. So you're not aware of the folders being out
6 there while you were out there?
7 A. (Shakes head negatively)
8 Q. You didn't meet with any of the lawyers or any
9 counsel in reference to Lisa McPherson?
10 MR. POLLI: You have to answer out loud.
11 You can't just shake your head.
12 THE WITNESS: It was Lee Fugate and Sandy
13 Weinberg that went to LA and asked me a few
14 questions while I was out there.
15 BY MR. MCGARRY:
16 Q. Were there any records out there present during
17 that conversation?
18 A. If there were, I didn't know.
19 Q. You weren't shown any?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you aware of who else that they spoke to in
22 reference to this case?
23 A. My wife.
24 Q. She was out there also?
25 A. Yes.
Page 3884 Image
1 Q. And obviously they didn't fly out there just to
2 talk to you. You were here. It would have been a lot
3 easier. Were they talking to other people?
4 A. They were there. I know we have attorneys out
5 there, so I don't know what their trip entailed.
6 MR. McGarry: We've been going a while. I
7 think these guys have a couple questions for
8 you. We can take a break or we can plunge
10 THE WITNESS: Plunge ahead.
12 BY MR. STROPE:
13 Q. When attorneys Weinberg and Fugate were in Los
14 Angeles, did they look through the files?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Were there any discussion of files?
17 A. No, not with me.
18 Q. Who would have the ultimate say as to -- who
19 could make a phone call and get those files moved with no
20 questions asked?
21 A. The attorneys.
22 Q. Who has more say than anyone else in the church
23 as far as officials in the church are concerned? Who has
24 the ultimate say, I should say? Who is the boss?
25 A. I think the boss in this case would be the
Page 3885 Image
i technology written by L. Ron Hubbard and that's what we go
3 Q. Who is the boss in the organization today? Who
4 would have the final say about anything that goes on in
5 the organization?
6 A. We're talking about here?
7 Q. Who is the boss in the organization today? I
8 didn't think that was that tough a question.
9 A. I'm not sure what you are referring to. We have
10 a certain structure.
11 Q. Who is at the top of the structure?
12 A. The top of that structure is Mr. Miscavige in
13 Religious Technology Center, which is entrusted to
14 safeguard technology.
15 Q. Who does Roman work for? Who is his senior?
16 A. The Office of Special Affairs in Los Angeles.
17 Q. Who oversees that office? Who can call that
18 office and says you're going to move this file, you're
19 going to do this or that? Who could do that unequivocal
20 without any problem?
21 A. The attorneys.
22 Q. They could say move the files?
23 A. Yeah, because it was a legal matter, so that's
24 who runs the legal --
25 Q. Who directs the attorneys? Who tells them what's
Page 3886 Image
1 going to be released and what's not going to be released?
2 A. Nobody. The attorneys are hired for legal
3 representation. They're the ones running the case.
4 Q. When State attorney McGarry sends a subpoena to
5 your office or your organization requesting certain files
6 or certain papers out of a file, who goes through the
7 files and say what's released and what's not released?
8 A. The attorneys would go through the files with the
9 legal officer there.
10 Q. So if a subpoena goes to the organization through
11 your office, you're saying that Sandy Weinberg and Lee
12 Fugate along with your people go through the file and say
13 what's released and what's not?,
14 A. It could be, if that's what the attorneys wanted
15 to do. I mean, you get a subpoena. You give it to your
16 attorney who is legal representation and then you work out
17 whatever the subpoena requests.
18 Q. The subpoena that's requesting information,
19 normally you would get that information and give it to the
20 prosecutor, right, during normal business?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. You don't glean through it, you just give it to
23 them. That's normal business, but that's not what
24 happened. Somebody is gleaning through the documents. My
25 question is, who is that person?
Page 3887 Image
1 A. I say I don't know. I'm not sure.
2 Q. But Mr. Miscavige could have final say as to
3 whether or not any documents are released?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I'm just curious. Was David Miscavige here
6 during November of '95?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Have you ever met David Miscavige?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you discussed Lisa with him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. At all?
13 A. No, not at all.
14 Q. Are you familiar with the term Merchant of Chaos?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you define that for me.
17 A. Somebody who forwards bad news and creates
18 turmoil and unrest in an area.
19 Q. For the organization?
20 A. No.
21 Q. For anybody?
22 A. Well --
23 Q. What type of people fit into that category? What
24 category of people fit into that category?
25 A. You got your drug dealers. You get, you know,
Page 3888 Image
1 you get your social criminals and so forth creating havoc
2 in a society. Those are your Merchants of Chaos.
3 Q. I've also been told by someone belonging to the
4 organization that police and press fit into that category;
5 is that true?
6 A. It's depends if they're bad or something, then
7 they would fit the definition of merchants of chaos. You
8 have the police and you've got media that are --
9 Q. Isn't there a tech that states that it's okay not
10 to tell the truth to merchants of chaos or lie to
11 merchants of chaos?
12 A. I've never read it, no.
13 Q. Did you know that Janice Johnson is an M.D.?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know that she was working on the Lisa
17 A. I knew she had something to do, with that.
18 Q. What was her role?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You didn't have any knowledge of that?
21 A. I know she worked in the MLO office, so I knew
22 that she was working with Lisa, because I got briefed on
24 Q. Have you ever looked over the caretaker's notes?
25 A. No.
Page 3889 Image
1 Q. Had no knowledge of those notes?
2 A. Not until recently that I was shown.
3 Q. That was the first time that you were shown when
4 they were shown by your attorney Mr. Polli?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Did you discuss your testimony here today with
7 anyone other than Mr. Polli?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are you familiar with a term and I'm not sure if
10 I'm using the right term, a testimony review board?
11 A. I'm not familiar.
12 Q. To go over your testimony before you come here
14 A. I'm not familiar with that.
15 Q. Have you yourself destroyed any records?
16 MR. MCGARRY: You need to be specific with that
18 BY MR. STROPE:
19 Q. Any records concerning Lisa McPherson?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You said that you referred to the term that I
22 believe Ben was in charge of that side of the Lisa
23 McPherson case?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What did you mean by that?
Page 3890 Image
1 A. By that I meant that at that time he was involved
2 in the Lisa McPherson case, not that side of the case. He
3 was that side of the post.
4 Q. Your exact words were side of the Lisa McPherson
6 A. I don't remember I said that exactly, but it's
7 basically he was involved with that side. In other words,
8 he was handling that matter. I was handling other
9 responsibilities of the post.
10 Q. I, like Mark, was confused about the times. When
11 you saw these records in the office, in the SAO office --
12 A. The folders.
13 Q. What date was that? What month was that?
14 A. That's when I first arrived in around -- it would
15 be June of '96;
16 Q. What was your post then?
17 A. I had arrived as a CO or temporary CO.
18 Q. You were the supervisor when those records were
19 in that office?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Would you have not naturally known if they were
22 shipped to Los Angeles being the CO?
23 A. I mean, I could have known, but I was sort of
24 getting familiar and new, and if they were shipped, there
25 was already activities ongoing. For example, I don't
Page 3891 Image
1 recall that Annie shipped those anywhere. I don't recall.
2 Q. Is that a standard operating procedure, to have
3 files laying around your office like that? Is that
4 something that happens all the time?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Happens all the time?
7 A. Yeah. Other folders are there in and out and so
9 Q. Was there a Committee of Evidence on Lisa's case?
10 A. Not to my knowledge.
11 Q. You said there was a Committee of Evidence on
12 Brian Anderson. What were the specific charges on that
13 Committee of Evidence? Did that have anything to do with
14 the Lisa case?
15 A. No. I -- maybe something, but in general, he
16 wasn't doing as well on the post. Lisa McPherson case is
17 a case. It's not what that office, you know -- the entire
18 focus of that office is not the Lisa McPherson case. It
19 handles other matters of the church.
20 Q. A portion of his Committee of Evidence had to do
21 indirectly with the Lisa McPherson?
22 A. I don't know. I had no part in Brian's Committee
23 of Evidence. I don't know.
24 Q. This order to move files, if orders came from Los
25 Angeles, would they be written orders to move files or
Page 3892 Image
1 would that be done with a phone call?
2 A. Yes, they could be done with a phone call.
3 Q. Did the organization do their own investigation
4 into the death of Lisa McPherson?
5 A. If they did, I wasn't a part of it. I'm not sure
6 if they did or not.
7 Q. So if people came here to interview witnesses and
8 to do an independent investigation, independent law
9 enforcement, you wouldn't know about that?
10 A. No. Independent law enforcement?
11 Q. Independent of law enforcement investigation?
12 A. Can you be specific, because about the only thing
13 we did with the case is hire attorneys and whatever
14 requests maybe that they had of, you know, whatever
15 information that they wanted to know for the case is about
16 all that was done having to do with attorneys. I'm not
17 sure what you're asking.
18 Q. If people would be interviewed, the attorneys
19 would do it?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. You told Mr. McGarry earlier someone told you
22 Lisa died on the way to the hospital. Who told you that?
23 A. You know, that she died and they were taking her
24 to the hospital, not that she died on her way to the
25 hospital. I know I said that. I'd like to correct that.
Page 3893 Image
1 That wasn't the words out of that person's mouth. It was
2 either Annie Morra or my wife who said that Lisa had died
3 and that they had been taking her to the hospital and then
4 she died. It wasn't specific that she died on the way or
5 she died there or whatever.
6 Q. So it wasn't on the way to the hospital?
7 A. No, that wasn't the words.
8 Q. You had misspoken?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. You also said you saw her leaving Morton Plant
11 Hospital the night of the accident. Did you see whose car
12 she got into?
13 A. No, I didn't. I just saw her walk out the door.
14 Q. We had people tell us you were at the hospital
15 handing out pamphlets; is that true?
16 A. That's not true. I had one booklet and I showed
17 that to the doctor and the psychiatric nurse.
18 Q. As I understand, psychiatrists, they isolate
19 people, calm them down, give them medications, have
20 sessions to find out what's bothering them. What part of
21 that don't you agree with?
22 A. I don't agree with the lobotomies, the brain
23 operations, the electric shock treatment, the rapes.
24 Those are the type of things that we object to.
25 Q. You have an education that qualifies you as being
Page 3894 Image
1 a proponent of psychiatry? Do you have training about
2 anti-psychiatry? What training do you have?
3 A. Reading the materials that are available in the
4 newspapers, in the medical journals and so forth. My
5 education isn't knowing how to read and write. I can read
6 what evidence that people are putting forward. I can read
7 legal documents in the courthouse of psychiatrists accused
8 of raping and so forth.
9 Q. Are you familiar with Benetta Slaughter?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is she staff or public?
12 A. She is a parishioner.
13 Q. She's not a member of OSA?
14 A. Not at all.
15 Q. This treatment that Lisa got at the hospital, I
16 don't mean medical treatment, I mean the fact that so many
17 people turned up at the emergency room at Morton Plant, is
18 that something you do all the time when a parishioner gets
19 into an accident? Is that normal procedure for everybody
20 to show up there?
21 A. I don't know about everybody. There were a
22 handful of people there and if some parishioner had a
23 threat of being put into a psychiatric hospital where they
24 could be hurt, yeah, a few of us would be there.
25 Q. So you think that was the major concern there
Page 3895 Image
1 that day?
2 A. I think it was also concern on her well-being and
3 as a matter of fact, I've gone to hospitals where there
4 was just concern on the parishioner of an illness or
5 something like that, where usually a lot of her friends
6 are around and so forth. You know, I actually have. I
7 have gone to Morton Plant a few times on other matters.
8 Q. When you heard or got the call that Lisa was at
9 the hospital, was that the first time you had heard her
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Hadn't heard it earlier in the day?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You never met or saw her before November 18 of
15 '95? You had no knowledge of her?
16 A. No.
17 MR. STROPE: I don't have anything else.
18 Thank you.
20 BY MR. ANDREWS:
21 Q. How many times have you gone to the hospital for
22 someone having problems like Lisa as the social reform
24 A. Twice.
25 Q. Do you remember the people, the cases? Lisa is
Page 3896 Image
1 one and one other one?
2 A. The other one, one of our parishioners was
3 involuntarily committed. I went to talk to the
4 psychiatrist there.
5 Q. Who was that?
6 A. I don't remember their names.
7 Q. After Lisa or before Lisa?
8 A. Before Lisa.
9 Q. Now, on that occasion, let's go back to that
10 occasion specifically. On that occasion, was there -- let
11 me continue on. Was the senior case supervisor there?
12 Was the deputy MLO there? Was the other public MLO
13 there? What other officials where there on that case?
14 A. No other officials.
15 Q. Just you?
16 A. Un-huh.
17 Q. We've had people describe to us it was very
18 unusual to have that many high-ranking officials from the
19 Church of Scientology at Morton Plant Hospital for Lisa.
20 Does that go along with your feelings too? When you look
21 at it now, all these people that were there, it was
23 A. I wouldn't say that. We had somebody, one of our
24 parishioners actually had some sort of a heart attack and
25 the Rescue was called up in the third floor there in our
Page 3897 Image
I lounge and I think the case supervisor or at least her
2 counselor was there. There were a few of us that went to
3 the hospital just to find out if she would make it or not
4 I wouldn't say that's an unusual thing. We have a lot of
5 care for our parishioners.
6 Q. But what kind of care could a social reform
7 officer, senior case supervisor, 2 MLOs, I could go on and
8 on. Not only that, back it up with Annie Morra from OSA
9 who is a predictor, is that right, which is a post you
10 used to hold?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you say you were a predictor or prediction,
13 predicator or something?
14 A. No. Director of Social Reform.
15 Q. Before that you held --
16 A. Expediter, totally different.
17 Q. She was there. Annie Mora was there. She was
18 there, in her testimony, to document the circumstances of
19 what's going on, to provide for in case there was a flap,
20 sort of like that. Have we done -- we, I'm using that as
21 us and the Church of Scientology, have we done that before
22 here, rushed all these people to the hospital for anyone?
23 A. To my knowledge, since I've been here, no.
24 Q. I found it funny that you said on the night of
25 December 5, you just happened to come into the office in
Page 3898 Image
1 the evening. Lisa McPherson was pronounced dead 21:30
2 hours, which would be 9:30 p.m. and word started to come
3 back between 9:30 and 10:00. You said you just happened
4 to come into the office. Is that a normal routine for you
5 or did somebody call you and tell you to come to the
7 A. No. I came in. It's the end. It's getting
8 close to our end of the evening. We wrap up our
9 production and so forth. I normally, if I'm out, I work
10 with parishioners or I'm doing other things. So it's
11 pretty common I'm out of the office. That's my work. I
12 work out in the field.
13 Q. You said you talked to Dr. Minkoff about the
14 case, but I don't remember you ever saying what you talked
16 A. Well, it was coordinating -- I was calling for
17 Glen and coordinating with the attorneys. They wanted to
18 reach Dr. Minkoff. I know him, so I had his phone number
19 available. I said, Yeah, I can call him. I can reach him
20 at the hospital or home and leave a message. I was sort
21 of acting just to help out and relieve the load of
22 everything else that had to be done.
23 Q. You did not have a specific conversation with
25 A. No, other than the attorney wants to talk to you,
Page 3899 Image
1 where he can reach you tomorrow or can you be available at
2 a certain time. Those were my conversations with David.
3 Q. In May or June of '96, you took over as the boss
4 and that would be the Captain of OSA?
5 A. Commanding Officer of OSA.
6 Q. You saw Lisa's PC folder there. Annie Morra
7 works for you. Your wife, Judy Fontana works for you at
8 that time?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Annie Mora says that she boxed these things up
11 to Los Angeles because Judy told her to do it?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Judy works for you, but yet you say you don't
14 know who asked to see those. My question to you is, who
15 would have had the authority to tell your wife, the legal
16 officer, send me these, Lisa's PC folders, to Los Angeles?
17 A. The attorneys in Los Angeles could have that
19 Q. Did you have any knowledge or did you personally
20 yourself have a Sec Check involving the Lisa McPherson
22 A. No.
23 Q. Who is Jane Jenczh?
24 A. Jane Jenczh is a counselor that works in Los
Page 3900 Image
1 Q. In what office?
2 A. In the OSA Office.
3 Q. Now, counselor, that is a new term?
4 A. Auditor. She is an auditor.
5 Q. She would do Sec Checks?
6 A; Yeah.
7 Q. Well, were you aware that she came here and did
8 Sec Checks?
9 A. She gave some -- well, she gave Sec Checks. She
10 also gave other types of auditing.
11 Q. In reference to Lisa McPherson?
12 A. No. That I know of, no. She was here auditing
13 several people.
14 Q. Would it not be a that if you're the CO of OSA
15 and she's a member of OSA in Los Angeles, that she would
16 check in here with OSA before beginning Sec Checks?
17 A. She did check in here.
18 Q. But you didn't have any knowledge of who she was
19 Sec Checking?
20 A. I can sit down. There was some parishioners.
21 She was also auditing myself and a few others.
22 Q. Auditing yourself, let's go to that. Did she Sec
23 Check or audit you?
24 A. She audited me.
25 Q. What's the difference?
Page 3901 Image
1 A. It's just a different process.
2 Q. Well, I'll give you my understanding so far. Sec
3 Check is sort of like an interrogation or an interview,
4 okay. And auditing --
5 A. That's your understanding.
6 Q. That's my understanding so far, and yet auditing
7 has been described as sitting down and talking to a
8 counselor and telling them what's bothering you or that
9 might be an example of some of the things and you work
10 those out.
11 Now, I'm getting confused between the two. If she
12 came here and audited you and she Sec Checked the next
13 person, what was the difference?
14 A. Again, I'll have to give you my opinion of it.
15 From what I get, a Sec Check you would address certain
16 things that maybe are not going so well currently, right,
17 and you would address certain things maybe there and you
18 get that off -- you find out what may be going on.
19 Q. Could it be Lisa McPherson. She is here to talk
20 to people about Lisa McPherson? Would that be a specific
22 A. Yeah. It's not a specific thing that she would
23 ask. If you're involved and maybe you as a parishioner
24 just like you would see a Catholic minister and if you sit
25 down and you want to get off something that's troubling
Page 3902 Image
1 you or whatever, you -- God knows what that range may be,
2 but it's an action that's done to assist somebody
3 spiritually to put him in a better state; if he is having
5 Q. All right. Then, let me lay this out. Why if
6 Judy Goldsberry-Weber was an MLO at the hospital but never
7 had anything to do with Lisa, she was kept in the dark.
8 She never had anything to do with Lisa. Why would Jane
9 Jenczh come here from California, do a Sec Check on her
10 and only ask her specific questions to Lisa McPherson?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. What was your auditing with Jane Jenczh?
13 A. I cannot tell you. That's priest penitive
14 privilege (phonetic).
15 Q. You're claiming a priest penitive privilege on
16 what you talked to Jane Jenczh on?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was it about Lisa McPherson?
19 A. I said that's priest penitive privilege.
20 Q. So your answer is you're not going to answer?
21 A. I can't answer what I went over with my minister.
22 Q. Even if it involved Lisa McPherson?
23 A. Well, that would break --
24 MR. POLLI: We can go around and around here
25 or we can move on to another. I don't think he
Page 3903 Image
1 is going to answer any questions about what he
2 spoke to his counselor, auditor, priest, what it
4 THE WITNESS: I spoke of a lot of personal
6 MR. MCGARRY: We're not asking that. The
7 question is if you talked about Lisa McPherson,
8 then that wouldn't be subject of your personal
9 priest penitive privilege because that was
10 obviously about somebody else. That did not
11 have nothing do with your personal --
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. I had nothing to say to
13 my auditor about Lisa McPherson.
14 MR. MCGARRY: That's fine. If that's your
15 answer. That's the question.
16 THE WITNESS: I had nothing.
17 MR. MCGARRY: You don't need to claim the
18 privilege if that was the answer.
19 BY MR. ANDREWS:
20 Q. The real question was, did Jane Jenczh come here
21 and ask you questions about Lisa McPherson?
22 A. No was the answer.
23 Q. Who have you talked to about this case in detail?
24 I mean, not just simply trying to find Dr. Minkoff, but
25 have had discussions about it with?
Page 3904 Image
1 A. Well, it would be Judy Fontana., It would be the
2 members of the OSA office here. We may have gone over it
3 in detail. Obviously, Judy Goldsberry-Weber.
4 Q. Let's go to Judy Goldsberry-Weber. She came to
5 you a couple times to talk to you? I think that's what
6 you said, a couple times she came to talk to you?
7 A. Un-huh.
8 Q. Do you remember her telling you or complaining to
9 you that she didn't feel that Lisa's case was handled
11 A. She may have said that.
12 Q. I'm asking you specifically, did she say that?
13 A. I don't remember that, but she might have said
15 Q. So you don't remember the conversations with Judy
17 A. I don't remember. Judy talks a lot. I just sort
18 of, you know, pat her on the back, and well, you know, get
19 with your attorney or whatever. That's not something I
20 want to, you know -- I just -- I'm busy. I try to be
21 pleasant with Judy or whatever, but there is nothing that
22 can be done.
23 Q. When did these conversations occur?
24 A. Would have been around July of '96, when I got
25 back, somewhere there.
Page 3905 Image
1 Q. What does Mary Story do in your office?
2 A. She does community affairs activities.
3 Q. Where does she fit into the chain of command in
4 OSA local?
5 A. She just does public relations. That's, what she
6 is doing right now.
7 Q. Does she work for the CO or does she work in the
8 legal office?
9 A. No. Nothing to do with legal. It's public
10 relations and community activities.
11 Q. So she works for Brian Anderson?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Right now?
14 A. Right now.
15 Q. What did Roman tell you about taking over for
17 A. He just asked me if I was interested in holding
18 the area for a while.
19 Q. Did he tell you why?
20 A. Well, he said Brian wasn't doing too well and
21 they were looking at possibly having somebody else. And
22 then he was looking at possibly sending other people down
23 to either be the commanding officer or help me out or
24 however. But he asked me if I would hold that post
Page 3906 Image
1 Q. But he didn't go into any specifics about why he
2 was doing badly?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you involved at all in preparing or cleaning
5 Lisa's room the night of or after?
6 A. Not at all.
7 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. Lisa was Clear. I
8 know that from what we found out. She was Clear.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Now, would it be possible for the attorneys
11 Elliott Abelson and Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate to read
12 her PC file?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. What does your religion say? If you are only a
15 Level 4, could someone look into your PC folder?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No. And Weinberg and Fugate have no standing in
18 the church whatsoever, so could they as attorneys, look
19 into her PC folders?
20 A. They might, but I don't have that answer for you.
21 I don't know.
22 MR. ANDREWS: You have any other questions?
23 MR. STROPE: No.
24 MR. POLLI: I don't have any.
25 (THEREUPON, the above proceedings were
Page 3907 Image
4 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
7 STATE OF FLORIDA )
8 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
I, the undersigned authority, certify that
12 Humberto Fontana personally appeared before me and was
WITNESS my hand and official seal this 30th day
14 of September, 1997.
C. DIANE GILCREASE
19 Notary Public - State of Florida
My Commission No. CC467965
20 Expires: May 29, 1999
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