Lisa McPherson Files - Sworn Statement of Gloria Cruz

Lisa's Roommate and Co-Worker

From the Clearwater Police Department files on the investigation into Lisa McPherson's death:


               1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

               2
               3
               4
               5
               6
               7                   STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
               8
                                       RE: LISA MCPHERSON
               9
              10
              11
              12         SWORN
                         STATEMENT OF:  GLORIA CRUZ.
              13
                         TAKEN BY:      Mark McGarry,
              14                        Assistant State Attorney.

              15         DATE:          September 18, 1997.

              16         BEFORE:        Lynne J. Ide, RPR, RMR
                                        Notary Public,
              17                        State of Florida at Large.

              18         PLACE:         Office of State Attorney
                                        Criminal Justice Center
              19                        B200
                                        Clearwater, Florida.
              23
                                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
              24                 TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT (813)224-9500
                               ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER (813)821-3320
              25

                                                              ORIGINAL
Page 4019 Image

                                                               2

               1    APPEARANCES:
               2
               3    MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
                    Assistant State Attorney
               4    Attorney for State of Florida.

               5    ALLAN "LEE" STROPE,
                    Special Agent,
               6    Florida Department of Law Enforcement
                    28870 U.S. Highway 19 North
               7    Suite 200
                    Clearwater, Florida 34621
               8
                    WAYNE ANDREWS,
               9    Detective Sergeant,
                    Clearwater Police Department
              10    Clearwater, Florida.

              11    RONALD K. CACCIATORE, ESQUIRE
                    Ronald K. Cacciatore, P.A.
              12    100 North Tampa Street
                    Suite 2835
              13    Tampa, Florida 33602
                    (813)2234831
              14    Counsel for the Witness.
              15                 ____________________________________
              16
                                        INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS
              17
                   Examination - Mr. McGarry                 Page    4
              18   Examination - Agent Strope                Page   56
                   Examination - Detective Sergeant Andrews  Page   61
              19   Cont'd. Examination - Agent Strope        Page   73
                   Cont'd. Examination - Mr. McGarry         Page   75
              20   Cont'd. Examination - Detective Sergeant
                   Andrews                                   Page   76
              21
              22
                                          INDEX TO EXHIBIT
              23
                   1 - Subpoena to Appear                    Page    3
              24
              25

                               KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
Page 4020 Image

                                                                  3

      1               MR. CACCIATORE: I would like to put
      2    something on  the record.
      3               MR. McGARRY: I was just getting ready to
      4    ask you if you wanted to do that. It is your privilege.
      5    Go ahead.
      6               MR. CACCIATORE: My client, Gloria Cruz, is
      7    here pursuant to subpoena. And I have advised my client
      8    that pursuant to Section 914.04 of the Florida Statutes
      9    she is receiving what us lawyers call use immunity at this
     10    proceeding.   If I am wrong, Mr. McGarry, I would
     11    appreciate your. correcting me.
     12               I would like to have attached to the
     13    deposition, if it is ever typed up, a copy of this
     14    subpoena.
     15               MR. McGARRY: Well, you won't be getting a
     16    copy of this. This is for our benefit.
     17               MR. CACCIATORE: Well, I know.
     18               MR. McGARRY: But you want a copy of that
     19    attached? Okay, we'll be happy to, if you would.
     20                (WHEREUPON, Exhibit Number 1 is marked for
     21    identification purposes).
     22               MR. McGARRY: We are ready to begin?
     23               MR. CACCIATORE: Yes.
     24               THE WITNESS: Yes.
     25

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320
Page 4021 Image

                                                                  4

      1                               GLORIA CRUZ,
      2    the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
      3    and testified as follows:
      4                               EXAMINATION
      5    BY MR. McGARRY:
      6          Q.   Would you state your name for the record,
      7    please.
      8          A.   Gloria Cruz.
      9          Q.   Where do you live?
     10          A.   X.
     11          Q.   All right, and where do you work currently?
     12          A.   AMC Publishing.
     13          Q.   Is that address the same address that you lived
     14    at back in `95, is that the same condominium, just out of
     15    curiosity? I can't remember what the address is.
     16          A.   No.
     17                     MR. McGARRY: Do you know the address?
     18                     DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: Osceola.
     19          A. 901 Osceola. B
     20    BY MR. McGARRY:
     21          Q.   When did you leave that address?
     22          A.   December of `95.
     23          Q.   So that --
     24          A.   After --
     25          Q.   -- that very month you left there?


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4022 Image

                                                                  5

      1          A.   After the death, yes.
      2          Q.   Let me get some background. Your birth date?
      3          A.   X/72.
      4          Q.   How long have you been living in Clearwater?
      5          A.   Since June of `95.
      6          Q.   All right. And where did you come from before
      7    that?
      8          A.   I came from Dallas, Texas.
      9          Q.   All right. And you lived in Dallas and also
     10    worked for ANC there?
     11          A.   Previous, the previous -- I think they moved
     1?    here in `93, so I worked at ANC from `91 to `93, then when
     13    the company moved here I was still back there going to
     14    college.
     15          Q.   In Dallas?
     16          A.   Yes.
     17          Q.   Okay. When did you join the church, if you
     18    remember?
     19          A.   `91.
     20          Q.   Okay. And were you a parishioner, or did you
     21    join Staff?  Was that in Dallas?
     22          A.   I am a parishioner of the church, and I have
     23    been a parishioner of the church.
     24          Q.   Never been a staff member?
     25          A.   Never.


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4023 Image

                                                                  6


      1          Q.   And that was in Dallas that you did that?
      2          A.   Uh-huh.
      3          Q.   All right. How did you get introduced to the
      4    Church of Scientology?
      5          A.   I met David and Bennetta Slaughter through a
      6    friend, and I actually was looking for a way to go to
      7    college. We met, and I liked them, so I came to live with
      8    them. We had an agreement that I would --
      9          Q.   In Dallas you lived with them?
     10          A.   Uh-huh. And they came here to Flag. And I --
     11    you know, I had told them some of the personal things I
     12    was having trouble with in life, and I took a couple
     13    courses that I really liked. And then from then on, you
     14    know, it was something I wanted to study.
     15          Q.   So they took you in in Dallas first, you lived
     16    with them in Dallas?
     17          A.   Yes.
     18          Q.   And that was just a gratuitous arrangement they
     19    worked out with you?
     20          A.   No, actually I wanted to I guess you would
     21    call it that. I wanted to be out of the house, I was --
     22    when I was at home I was getting toward the end of my high
     23    school years. And my mother said if I wanted to go to
     24    college I needed to get creative.
     25               So I actually looked at different situations how


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4024 Image

                                                                 7

      1    I could go to college. I was looking at living with a
      2    family in Wisconsin who would help me with college, I
      3    would help them with their child.
      4          Q.   Yes?
      5          A.   And, you know, it just happened I met David and
      6    Bennetta.
      7          Q.   Was there some child care duties involved there?
      8          A.   Well, her best friend, I used to babysit for
      9    Bennetta's friend in Dallas, and that is how I met
     10    Bennetta and David.
     11          Q.   Did they have a child, also?
     12          A.   David and Bennetta?
     13          Q.   Yes.
     14          A.   Yes.
     15          Q.   Now it is a little clearer to me.
     16                   MR. CACCIATORE: Why don't you -- so we can
     17    get a full understanding, why don't you tell him where you
     18    got your degree from and what it was in.
     19        A.    Yes, before I made the arrangements, I graduated
     20    and then I got some scholarships so I was able to go to
     21    SMU, and my first two years I went to community college
     22    and lived with David and Bennetta. Then they moved here
     23    after -- toward the end of it, then I lived in Dallas and
     24    finished up at SMU and got a marketing degree.
     25          Q.   So David and Bennetta moved to Flag, or moved to


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4025 Image

                                                              8

      1    Clearwater?
      2          A.   Uh-huh.
      3          Q.   And you followed them here for that reason, for
      4    the reason -- what reason did you follow them to
      5    Clearwater?
      6          A.   Well, you know, after I was out of college, I
      7    have a marketing degree, I looked at what I wanted to do
      8    in terms of a career, I interviewed with a couple of
      9    companies and I wasn't really particularly interested in
     10    any of them. I had worked for the company, and decided
     11    that I wanted to do sales.  So, you know, I didn't
     12    particularly have any attachments to Dallas, any
     13    commitments, so I moved here.
     14          Q.   Why did the company, AMC Publishing, move from
     15    Dallas to Clearwater?
     16          A.   I am not sure.
     17          Q.   Lock, stock and barrel? Or did they just open
     18    another branch?
     19          A.   No, the company, the company was very small, I
     20    mean, I would say maybe about eight employees. It is not
     21    what it is now. So it was, you know, just moved.
     22          Q.   Was Lisa employed with ANC in Dallas?
     23          A.   Yes, she was.
     24          Q.   That is why I asked that. And you met her
     25    there, right?


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4026 Image

                                                                  9

      1          A.   Uh-huh.
      2          Q.   Tell me about how you came to meet Lisa in
      3    Dallas.
      4          A.   Well, I was working at the company part-time,
      5    because I studied the rest of the time.  So I would come
      6    in a couple hours in the afternoon. And, you know, I was
      7    doing some of the running of errands, being receptionist.
      8    And she was somebody, you know, an employee that I knew
      9    from working there in the afternoons.
     10          Q.   Who was the boss there in Dallas?
     11          A.   David and Bennetta and Jeff.
     12          Q.   And Jeff is who, Jeff who?
     13          A.   The three partners of the company.
     14          Q.   Jeff, what is Jeff's last name?
     15          A.   Jeff Shavner (phonetic).
     16          Q.   He's part owner with David and Bennetta?
     17          A.   Yes.
     18          Q.   So they would have been -- all three would have
     19    been Lisa's boss at that time?
     20          A.   I mean, I don't know how it was set up, if there
     21    was somebody like CFO or CEO or whatever, but I would
     22    guess so.
     23          Q.   Okay. So did you strike your friendship up with
     24    Lisa McPherson in Dallas?
     25          A.   Yes. I think, if anything, she was more an


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4027 Image

                                                                 10

      1    acquaintance, somebody that I knew.
      2          Q.   Right. Was your connection there also something
      3    to do with possibly that she was also a member of the
      4    church?
      5          A.   Not really, because we actually -- you know, I
      6    spent most of my time at school.  I came to the office
      7    couple hours, and that is pretty much the only time I
      8    would see her.
      9          Q.   Well, you were taking courses in Dallas,
     10    correct?
     11          A.   Yes, but that was in the afternoons. We all --
     12          Q.   I mean courses in the church?
     13          A.   Yes, it was at night. Different schedules.  You
     14    know, Lisa was also ten years older than me.  We didn't
     15    run around the same social groups.
     16          Q.   But you didn't take any courses together in
     17    Dallas?
     18          A.   No.
     19          Q.   Was she taking courses in Dallas?
     20          A.   I wouldn't know.
     21          Q.   Okay. How long had she been working for AMC
     22    when you started there in Dallas, do you remember?
     23          A.   Don't know.
     24          Q.   Do you remember what her job responsibilities
     25    were when she was working at AMC?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4028 Image

                                                                 11

      1          A.    Well, when she was in Dallas she was a sales
      2    consultant.
      3          Q.   Did ANC operate virtually the same way they did
      4    in Dallas as they do now, or did they branch off and do
      5    different things, if you know?
      6          A.   No, it is the same service, I mean --
      7          Q.   Describe to me the service, if you would. I'm
      8    not familiar with exactly what she did, Lisa did.
      9          A.   Basically what our company does, we have three
     10    different -- actually four different advertising mediums
     11    that the insurance marketers can use to reach the
     12    insurance agents. We have a card pack, which is like what
     13    you would get on your door like value coupon, except it is
     14    specific to our industry; they can buy lists of agents to
     15    mail to; we can put out their own mailing, then we can use
     16    magazines to reach the same audience.
     17               So the sales consultant part of that would be
     18    finding the marketers and prospects to sell to so they can
     19    advertise to the agents.
     20          Q.   Who are the people that are trying to get to the
     21    agents?
     22          A.   The marketers. It would be like your home
     23    office company for Kemper.
     24          Q.   Right?
     25          A.   Southland, whatever major insurance company you


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4029 Image

                                                                 12

      1    might have.
      2          Q.   And they'll have -- why is it they would want to
      3    get to agents? They have their own company, their own
      4    agents. Why would they need your company to get to other
      5    agents?
      6          A.   Well, they actually -- you know, I mean,
      7    basically if you have the company and you want to reach
      8    agents, you would have to spend some money in marketing.
      9               Well, with our mediums, most of it is turn key,
     10    we handle the designing, printing and mailing. And it is
     11    the most inexpensive way to advertise, because you could
     12    mail in the card pack and spend three cents per piece, to
     13    where if you wanted to send the agent a letter you would
     14    spend forty cents a letter after postage, printing and
     15    everything else. So that is the mediums we offer. Not
     16    only does it save them time, but it saves them money.
     17         Q.   So as a salesperson for AMC then you are out
     18    courting those people that try to get to the agents, as
     19    well as you already have a list somehow compiled for
     20    agents, right?
     21         A.   From the states, yes.
     22         Q.   And so you are courting the business companies
     23    to use your medium to reach the agents with whatever
     24    materials those companies want to get to the agents,
     25    right?


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4030 Image

                                                                13

      1          A.   The marketers, yes.
      2          Q.   So do you have your own printing facility and
      3    everything for that?
      4          A.   No, we have vendors for that. We have our own
      5    marketing and advertising department but we don't have a
      6    printing facility.
      7          Q.   Who do you use for printing, somebody local?
      8          A.   No, it is somebody out of the state. I don't
      9    really know where they are.
     10          Q.   So you send out all of the stuff for design and
     11    stuff, that is not in-house either, is it?
     12          A.   That is in-house.
     13          Q.   So your design is in-house?
     14          A.   Uh-huh.
     15          Q.   And that design, then you are using an
     16    out-of-state printer for that?
     17          A.   Yes.
     18          Q.   For printing up the materials?
     19          A.   Right. I mean, you know, I can't tell you what
     20    all of the jobs are done local.  I know that we have a
     21    local printer here, but there is -- I know -- I don't
     22    think they are mailed from here.  I'm sure there are lots
     23    of different vendors we deal with, depending upon who
     24    offers the best price on whatever we're doing.
     25          Q.   So are you now doing what Lisa used to do?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 8138213320

Page 4031 Image

                                                                      14

      1          A.   Yes.
      2          Q.   So did you take her clients?  I mean, were some
      3    of those clients given to you?  Do you have clients?
      4          A.   I do have clients.
      5          Q.   So, for instance, give me your biggest client.
      6    Who would that be?
      7          A.   My biggest client?
      8          Q.   Yes.
      9          A.   Mmm, God, there is a company in Iowa called NA
     10    Brokerage.  They do very good business with me.  And I
     11    have been able to develop it into a rather good situation
     12    for both of us.
     13         Q.    Who was Lisa's best client?
     14         A.    Couldn't tell you.  I don't know.
     15         Q.    Okay.  So did you come to Clearwater first, or
     16    did Lisa?
     17         A.    Lisa did.
     18         Q.    She did?
     19         A.    Yes.
     20         Q.    Same reason, right, as far as you know, because
     21    of the company?
     22         A.    Well, Lisa came when the company moved.
     23         Q.    So she left with Bennetta and David?
     24         A.    Yes, she left when the company moved.
     25         Q.    All right. You finished up your school, that is

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4032 Image

                                                                 15

      1    when you came and joined the company, as well?
      2          A.   Uh-huh, correct.
      3          Q.   How did you end up in a living arrangement with
      4    Lisa?
      5               What was your first living arrangement, or was
      6    that your first living arrangement?
      7          A.   My first living arrangement, I came home, when I
      8    say home I mean with David and Bennetta, and that whole
      9    year, year and a half they had been here I had been living
     10    on my own. So then I came here.
     11               There was a program actually as to how I was
     12    going to get to sales, but I wasn't making very much money
     13    then so I really couldn't afford to live on my own, didn't
     14    really care to.  And then I found out Lisa also was
     15    single, she didn't have a roommate, and she lived rather
     16    close to office, too. So then I thought, you know, for
     17    both of us, it was very convenient.
     18          Q.   So she had the place first; the condominium?
     19          A.   She had the place first, it was her place. It
     20    was a two bedroom, you know.  She had a spare room she
     21    wasn't doing anything with.
     22               And when I moved in with her, you know, the
     23    agreement was she knew that I wasn't making very much
     24    money, but we did an exchange to where -- first of all,
     25    Lisa never liked to like cook and clean and do any of


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4033 Image

                                                                 16

      1    those things. I wasn't making much money. It was
      2    convenient for me to move in with her, she provided living
      3    room, I could do cooking, not very much cooking, but I
      4    could do cleaning, bought groceries and whatever errands
      5    she needed.
      6               Then we had the arrangement as soon as I first
      7    started to get into sales and started making money, we
      8    would split the rent.
      g          Q.   I see. And that arrangement began, if you
     10    remember, when?
     11          A.   September.
     12          Q.   September of `95?
     13          A.   Uh-huh.
     14          Q.   Which is when she went clear, correct, is that
     15    possible?
     16                     DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: September of
     17    1995 she went clear.
     18    BY MR. McGARRY:
     19         Q.   Do you remember that? It is a big deal for her,
     20    I guess, but maybe not for you.
     21         A.   Well, I do remember that she actually had gone
     22    clear like days or weeks before I moved in with her,
     23    because I did go to the ceremony where she, you know, she
     24    was announced and she got up on stage and gave her wins,
     25    so I do remember that. That was very recent --

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4034 Image

                                                                 17

      1          Q.   So it was right before?
      2          A.   Yes, right before.
      3          Q.   Who owned the condominium?  Is that somebody she
      4    knew, or was it somebody that she had a connection with,
      5    or was it just anybody?
      6               Who did the rent check go to, do you know?
      7          A.   I don't know. When I moved there everything was
      8    established, all of the bills were in her name, the rent
      9    thing came to her.
     10          Q.   Okay. That was a pretty good arrangement
     11    because both you guys went to AMC, you could share even a
     12    ride there to the publishing company, correct?
     13          A.   We could but we never did. We had, you know,
     14    different schedules.  If anything, we -- the only time we
     15    would meet up is sometimes in the evening.
     16          Q.   Were there different hourly shifts for employees
     17    at ANC, or were they basically eight to five?
     18          A.   They were the same for everyone. Obviously if
     19    somebody had an appointment or whatever, or was doing
     20    vacation time, it would be different, but the schedules
     21    are the same.              
     22          Q.   I mean, were there any late nights involved?
     23    Was there ever anybody staying nine, ten o'clock at night
     24    working?
     25          A.   Oh, I stayed plenty of times working late,

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4035 Image

                                                                 18

      1    handling whatever needed to be handled.
      2          Q.   Right. How many employees were there in `95, if
      3    you can recall, the best you can recall?
      4          A.   I don't know, I would say maybe about fifteen.
      5          Q.   Fifteen?  And the same three were in charge in
      6    Clearwater as they were in Dallas, correct?
      7          A.   Yes.
      8          Q.   Was there any hierarchy after them, or was it
      9    pretty much them and then everybody else?
     10         A.    Well, I mean, there is an organiEation board
     11    that the company runs -- runs under.
     12         Q.    Is there any -- I mean, is there like a pyramid
     13    of people involved in the company, there is sales people,
     14    then another level of administration, then --
     15         A.    Yeah.
     16         Q.    -- then Bennetta and David?
     17         A.    Yes. It is like, you know, you have your sales
     18    department with your sales people, and your sales manager,
     19    your sales secretary, then you have your advertising
     20    department with the copywriters, graphic artists, and just
     21    the whole structural division. And the company is managed
     22    that way.
     23         Q.    So at the time you were employed also as a
     24    salesperson?
     25         A.    No.  I was not.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4036 Image


                                                                 19


      1          Q.   Okay, what were you employed as?
      2          A.   When I first got out of college and moved here
      3    one of the first things I did was I held a receptionist
      4    job.
      5               After that, I did what you call a client service
      6    manager where I handled getting the clients, the art work
      7    from them, and then getting it to them for approval.  So
      8    that is a whole little structure.
      9               Then after that I did the director of
     10    productions where I was making sure that, our outside
     11    vendors, you know, printed and got everything correctly
     12    for our clients.
     13               Then after that I was training to do some
     14    promotion and marketing.
     15               So that, you know, my goal when I first got
     16    there was to learn as many divisions of the company as I
     17    possibly could. I already had done some of that in Dallas
     18    part-time, but I wanted to learn as much as I could about
     19    each division to really understand what it was we did,
     20    then to be able to move into sales.
     21          Q.   Because sales is where the people make their
     22    most money, I guess commissions being what they are and
     23    everything?
     24          A.   Yeah.
     25          Q.   I mean, that is obviously a step up money-wise


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4037 Image

                                                                 20

      1    to get into the sales department, correct?
      2          A.   Correct.
                 Q.   For instance, Lisa's position at that time was a
      4    sales position.  Was she making a salary and commission?
      5    Or how did they do that?  Was it straight commission?
      6          A.   Don't know.
      7          Q.   Well, how are you -- how is your compensation
      8    done?
      9          A.   How is mine done now?
     10          Q.   Is it straight commission? Or is it --
     11          A.   No, it is both.
     12          Q.   So --
     13          A.   It is commission --
     14          Q.   Hers probably was the same way?
     15               Don't know?
     16          A.   I don't know.  I mean, discussing it maybe with
     17    somebody there longer would be different, but I'm not sure
     18    how the other ones are structured.  I know how mine is.
     19          Q.   Yours is you get what you get by performing, not
     20    from a salary every month?
     21         A.    Correct.  There is a small salary, but you are
     22    right, the rest of it is on production.
     23         Q.    Right. So you know, I'm not trying to trick you
     24    or anything, I detect there is probably a little pressure,
     25    under that particular scheme of things, especially if you

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4038 Image

                                                                 21

      1    are paying bills and such, as opposed to just making a
      2    straight salary, would you agree with that?
      3          A.   No, I personally don't.
      4          Q.   You don't have any pressure at all to perform?
      5          A.   The only pressure, I mean, it is personal.
      6          Q.   Right, that is what I'm saying, to make money
      7    you have to perform?
      8          A.   Yes, absolutely.  If I come into the week and
      9    don't do any sales, you know, what I'm used to or what I
     10    would want, it would be a very little paycheck.
     11          Q.   So after Lisa went clear in September, you moved
     12    in together, she had a little, I believe in Scientology
     13    terms it would be referred to as a spin.
     14               Are you familiar with that term, "spin"?
     15          A.   No.
     16          Q.   You are not? The only reason why I use that
     17    term, it is what Annie Mora used. Do you know that term?
     18          A.   I don't.
     19          Q.   She's in OSA.
     20          A.   What is in OSA?
     21          Q.   Annie Mora.
     22          A.   But what is OSA?
     23          Q.   That is the Office of Special Affairs in the
     24    hierarchy of the church, OSA.
     25          A.   Oh, okay.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4039 Image

                                                                 22

      1          Q.   And apparently that summer Lisa was having some
      2    problems as far as dealing with, I don't know, emotional
      3    problems, I don't know whether it was a boyfriend, I don't
      4    know whether it was pressure at AMC, or a combination, or
      5    maybe it was some pressures within the church that caused
      6    her to be hung up a little bit and progressing to -- not
      7    only before she got clear but after she got clear she had
      8    some problems, and I think she actually obtained some
      9    services from the church.
     10                Since you were there, I would like you to
     11    describe that situation for me, if you would.
     12          A.   I -- I mean, you said the summer. I didn't live
     13    with her --
     14                DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: She moved in
     15    in September after Lisa had her spin in July, or July and
     16    August.
     17                     THE WITNESS: Could I get some water?
     18                     MR. McGARRY: Yes.
     19                            (Recess taken).
     20    BY MR. McGARRY:
     21          Q.   I was talking about the summer of `95, and you
     22    moved in in September.  The detective pointed out that she
     23    had that prior to you moving in with her.  But you knew
     24    Lisa at the time, right?  I mean, did you know anything
     25    about that, that episode she had?

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4040 Image

                                                                 23

      1          A.   No, I didn't.
      2          Q.   You didn't?  Did she ever talk about it?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   During that period from September to December,
      5    did she ever -- did you ever have the opinion that she was
      6    under a lot of stress or pressure? Did she ever give you
      7    that feeling?'
      8.         A.   No.
      9          Q.   She didn't?
     10          A.   No.
     11          Q.   You don't recall who Lisa's largest client at
     12    the time was?
     13          A.   I do not.
     14          Q.   Bennetta would probably know that, right?
     15          A.   She might.
     16          Q.   How about her health, did you observe any
     17    unusual things about her health, unusual characteristics?
     18    Did she appear to be experiencing any weight loss or
     19    health problems during that period of time?
     20         A.   No. You know, we did walks together for
     21    exercise.  I bought the groceries.  You know, we never had
     22    lots of stuff but, you know, there was always stuff she
     23    could make a sandwich with, cereal for the mornings,
     24    yogurt, protein drinks.  And then sometimes we would meet
     25    up for dinner, you know, at local restaurants.  So I don't


                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4041 Image

                                                                 24

      1    recall anything unusual.
      2          Q.   Did she have a boyfriend during that period of
      3    time, or no?
      4          A.   I couldn't -- I wouldn't know.
      5          Q.   She never said --
      6          A..  No.
      7          Q.   -- anything about it? I
      8          A.   No.
      9          Q.   Did she ever go to a chiropractor during that
      10   period of time that you know of?
      11         A.   Mmm, that I specifically know of?  No.
      12         Q.   All right, she went on a seminar to Orlando?
      13         A.   Uh-huh.
      14         Q.   And you happened to be in Orlando at the same,
      15   time, correct? Is that just by chance, or how did that
      16   happen?
      17         A.   My girlfriend and I, we planned a trip for the
      18   weekend to --
      19                     MR. CACCIATORE: Tell him the girlfriend's
      20   name.
      21         A.   My girlfriend T.C. and I, we planned to actually
      22   meet some friends who --
      23                     MR. CACCIATORE: The whole name.
      24         A.   Oh, T.C. Applebaum.
      25

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4042 Image

                                                                 25

      1    BY MR. McGARRY:
      2          Q.   All right.
      3          A.   First of all, the seminar Lisa was going to,
      4    those are arranged the beginning of the year. You know,
      5    the company decides what seminars we are going to go to.
      6               This happens to be one of -- actually our
      7    biggest industry convention, it is planned early on and
      8    they decide who is going to go.
      9               But it just happened that this weekend, this
     10    particular weekend, my girlfriend and I, T.C., planned a
     11    trip to go meet friends in Orlando who had a place, they
     12    were going to Disney, they got us tickets.
     13               Lisa left from the office to come to Orlando on
     14    a Wednesday. T.C. and I left the office to come to
     15    Orlando on `a Friday after work.
     16          Q.   I see. So you kind of crossed
     17          A.   Yes, well, we returned on Sunday, close to
     18    Sunday night.
     19          Q.   I got you. So she had already come back by
     20    then, which would have been Friday night or Friday
     21    evening?
     22          A.   I don't know when she came back.
     23          Q.   All right. So tell me about right before she
     24    left for Orlando. Did you all -- did she discuss going to
     25    Orlando?  Did she seem normal then?


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4043 Image

                                                                 26

      1          A.   Uh-huh. The night before, I guess it would have
      2    been Tuesday night, you know, since, as I said, I used to
      3    handle her personal things, there were certain things I
      4    had taken to the dry cleaner.  I helped her pack.  I had
      5    washed some of her things and I ironed some things that
      6    night and we folded them up and we had to decide what she
      7    was going to take. And then that night we discussed what
      8    clothes she wanted me to pick up from the dry cleaner.
      9               Then I brought them to the office that morning
     10    and gave them to her and said good-bye.
     11               But on Thursday she actually called me at home,
     12.   because we were supposed to go to this meeting to promote
     13    Winter Wonderland, which is one of our projects we were
     14    working on.  Then she called me on Thursday from the
     15    hotel, you know, making sure that I had arranged for
     16    somebody to do this, since I was going to be gone, as
     17    well.  So that was the last time that I had a conversation
     18    with her.
     19          Q.   How did she seem then on the telephone?
     20          A.   She seemed fine. Mmm, you know, I didn't notice
     21    anything unusual.
     22          Q.   You talked to Bennetta about this, I'm sure.
     23    Didn't Bennetta indicate to you that she was exhibiting
     24    some kind of bizarre behavior when she was in Orlando,
     25    Lisa was?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4044 Image

                                                                 27

      1          A.   Bennetta talked to me about it?
      2          Q.   No?
      3          A.   No. I think after -- I mean, this is something
      4    more recently that has come up through --
      5          Q.   You never had a casual conversation with
      6    Bennetta where Bennetta said, "Hey, Gloria, by the way,
      7    she was acting really strange in Orlando," that never came
      8    up with Bennetta or David?
      9          A.   No, not until like, you know, recently in a
     10    setting like this where I was -- I think somebody told me,
     11    "Did you know anything about her unusualness in Orlando?"
     12               And I was like, "I don't know what you are
     13    talking about."
     14          Q.   What setting is that that that came up, so I
     15    don't forget to ask that question? If it is with lawyers
      6    or whatever, that is fine, too.
     17               MR. CACCIATORE: I don't think it was with
     18    lawyers, I think it was with me.
     19          A.   Yes, I mean --
     20                  MR. McGARRY: You are a lawyer, too, we
     21    don't want to cut you out of the profession.
     22                  MR. CACCIATORE:  But I don't think she had
     23    been interviewed by any lawyers except me.
     24                  MR. McGARRY: But a lot of people have gone
     25    over to interview with Sandy.


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4045 Image

                                                                 28

      1               MR. CACCIATORE: Yes.
      2          A.   Yes, so, you know, I know that it wasn't
      3    something like we sat down and discussed and was given to
      4    me or talked to me about.
      5               BY MR. McGARRY:
      6          Q.   Yes, I was just curious.
      7          A.   Okay.
      8               MR. CACCIATORE:  Why don't you go back and
      9    explain, I don't mean to --
      10              MR. McGARRY: No, if you want to fill in
      11   details I missed, I would appreciate it.
      12              MR. CACCIATORE: The way it sounds, it
      13   sounds sort of like she didn't know anything.  She knows
      14   some things.
      15              When did you learn something had occurred?
      16   When you get home tell them about checking your messages
      17   and your call to Bennetta.
      18              BY MR. McGARRY:
      19         Q.   I'm going to get to that now. Why don't we go
      20   back to that.
      21              When you first got home you realized Lisa wasn't
      22   around, right?
      23         A.   Yes.
      24         Q.   We'll pick it up from there.
      25         A.   I came home that Sunday evening and I knew she

                       KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4046 Image

                                                                 29

      1    came back because there was -- actually, her suitcase was
      2    back in the bedroom. And I played our messages and there
      3    was a message on there from a guy saying, you know, "I
      4    heard what happened, I'm sorry I couldn't be there for
      5    you."
      6               So then I was like, you know, well, what is
      7    going on?  So then I did call Bennetta and asked her, you
      8    know, "I just heard this message, and where is Lisa?"
      9               Then she told me that Lisa went to the Ft.
     10    Harrison to handle some things.
     11          Q.   All right. Now, you didn't know who that person
     12    was on the telephone?
     13          A.   I don't.
     14          Q.   Do you know today who that person was on the
     15    phone?
     16          A.   No. Somebody I have -- you know I never heard
     17    the voice. I didn't -- I can't say I know all her
     18    friends.
     19          Q.   Now, did you ever see her car, Lisa's car?
     20          A.   I saw it after, I think a couple days after, I
     21    saw it at the house.
     22                    MR. CACCIATORE: What house?
     23          A.   Well, at our apartment. It was parked.
     24    BY MR. McGARRY:
     25          Q.   So that would have been Monday, or Tuesday


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4047 Image

                                                                 30

      1    probably?
      2          A.   Probably about Monday or Tuesday.
      3          Q.   Do you know how it got there?
      4          A.   No, I don't.
      5          Q.   Was there obvious damage to the car that you
      6    could see? I mean, you heard she was in a wreck and
      7    everything, right?
      8          A.   Actually, what I saw, when I noticed her car was
      9    there, I don't know what you call it, the grill,
     10    carburetor thing, whatever it was, you know, it was -- it
     11    was -- it was bent. And then that is when I asked, you
     12    know, what happened.
     13          Q.   Who did you ask that to?
     14          A.   Mmm, I actually asked David.
     15          Q.   Did David tell you the story? When did you get
     16    the story? I want to know who gave you the story about
     17    Lisa's big run into the back of the boat trailer story,
     18    where did you get that from?
     19          A.   I cannot -- I can't remember who. But I dOn't
     20    even know that -- the details were like, well, what
     21    happened?  Yeah, she was in accident.  And I think even
     22    up until now, you know, the details, I don't know the
     23    details.
     24          Q.   All right. Well, I was just curious.  Usually a
     25    roommate would seek those out. You understand my


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4048 Image

                                                                 31

      1    suspicions about your roommate is in a boat -- or car
      2    accident with a boat trailer, and now she's gone.
      3          A.   Well --
      4          Q.   Didn't Bennetta tell you what the deal was?
      5    Because she went to the hospital.  And you worked with
      6    Bennetta.  I would think you would have gotten the
      7    information from Bennetta.
      8          A.   Well --
      9                  MR. CACCIATORE: Let me correct you, if I
     10    may.
     11    BY MR. McGARRY:
     12          Q.   Excuse me, she did not go to the hospital, David
     13    did.
     14    MR. CACCIATORE: Right.
     15    BY MR. McGARRY:
     16          Q.   But Bennetta was aware what was going on.
     17                   MR. McGARRY: Thank you for correcting me.
     18    BY MR. McGARRY:
     19          Q.   David went, I know David is also an employee or
     20    owner of AMC.
     21          A.   Yes. To me, it was like when I called and said,
     22    "What happened," or "Where is Lisa, I heard this message,"
     23    when they tell me she went to the Ft. Harrison to handle
     24    some things, to me, that was -- that was what -- you know,
     25    I didn't need to know any details. She wasn't hurt.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4049 Image

                                                                 32

      1          Q.   Who said that?
      2          A.   Bennetta. It wasn't anything unusual for you to
      3    go to the church and handle -- or deal -- find something
      4    that you are trying to handle. So to me that was -- that
      5    was fine.
      6                 MR. CACCIATORE: Well, I don't think he
      7    would understand that it is, not nusual. I mean, had you
      8    known other people that had gone to the Ft. Harrison
      9    before?
     10                  THE WITNESS: Yes.
     11                  MR. CACCIATORE: Explain that a little bit.
     12          A.   It is like, to me; I go to the Ft. Harrison, I
     13    study, take courses.  Sometimes if I need counseling, you
     14    know, there is pastoral counseling, I think that would be
     15    the right term, you go and you discuss those things.
     16          Q.   I understand.  It is a little more unusual for
     17    somebody to spend the night, there aren't that many
     18    overnight courses I'm aware of.
     19          A.   Well, it is a hotel and it has facilities to
     20    where a lot of the people that -- a lot of people, it is
     21    headquarters, people from all over the world come.
     22          Q.   But if you live in town, you don't check in for
     23    overnight counseling, it is my understanding you can get
     24    your courses and certainly go home at a reasonable hour.
     25               So you wouldn't characterize her stay there for


                KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-8213320

Page 4050 Image

                                                                 33

      1    a week or couple weeks anything unusual?
      2          A.   No.
      3          Q.   All right. I was curious. You mentioned that
      4    her   suitcase was on the bed. Do you know how it got
      5    there?
      6          A.   I don't.
      7          Q.   You don't know that?
      8          A.   No.
      9          Q.   To this day you don't know?
      10         A.   I don't. It was actually her hanging bag.
      11         Q.   Hanging bag?
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   Was that the only thing she took to Orlando was
      14   a hanging bag, if you recall? The best you can recall.
      15   That  is all you can do.
      16         A.   I don't -- I don't know.
      17         Q.   All right. How about could you tell whether or
      18   not it had been opened and things had been taken out, or
      19   was it just hanging there?  Was there things removed and
      20   put back in their places?
      21         A.   Yes, things were removed. Some of it had been
      22   put back in their places. I put a couple of things up.
      23.        Q.   So you know where I'm going?
      24         A.   No.
      25         Q.   I know, but did it look like somebody had done

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4051 Image

                                                                 34

      1    that other than Lisa, or did it look like Lisa put that
      2    back? Do you see what I'm saying? Usually you can tell
      3    if somebody has done it themselves, or somebody else had
      4    done it.
      5          A.   I saw nothing unusual. To me, all I know, Lisa
      6    had come home, unpacked. I don't know.
      7          Q.   I mean, you understand the question? Was there
      8    any evidence there that looked like she came and put it
      9    all back in, or somebody got that stuff out of her car and
     10    brought it back, because I'm not so sure Lisa ever came
     11    back to her apartment. I don't know anybody ever knew,
     12    because she was driven straight from Morton Plant
     13    Hospital.
     14               I was curious, I was curious how the stuff got
     15    back in that bedroom, and if it did, how the person let
     16    themselves in the room without Lisa being there.
     17          A.   I don't know.
     18          Q.   So you don't know? That is where I'm going with
     19   this. You don't have any idea?
     20          A.   No idea.
     21          Q.   How about personal effects like makeup bag,
     22    brushes, combs, you know, personal effects, those ended up
     23    at the hotel, too. Do you know how that happened?
     24          A.   No.
     25          Q.   Never talked to anybody since then and

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4052 Image

                                                                 35

      1    discovered how that happened?
      2          A.   No.
      3          Q.   Bennetta never mentioned that, or David, or
      4    anybody that went back there and got it or did it for her?
      5          A.   No. No.
      6          Q.   I don't know if you answered this. Did you
      7     notice those things were missing?
      8          A.   I knew her -- yeah, I did know some of those
      9     things were missing.
     10          Q.   That is my question. Do you know how they ended
     11     up at the hotel? You didn't take them over there, did
     12     you?
     13          A.   Right, I didn't. No, I don't know how they
     14     ended up over there.
     15          Q.   Did anybody else have a key to that condominium
     16     besides you and Lisa?
     17          A.   I don't know. I had my key that she made copies
     18     of for me. The apartment had been hers for I don't know
     19     how long. I don't know who else had keys. You know,
     20     personally I had never given the key to anybody.
     21          Q.   As far as you are concerned, nobody else had
     22     access to it but you land her, as far as you know?
     23          A.   Yes.
     24          Q.   Okay. You lived there. I would think that, you
     25    know, that is a fair question.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4053 Image

                                                                 36

      1               So were you ever given -- other than the
      2    information you got from Bennetta about her going to the
      3    hotel for services, did you ever call over there to see
      4    how she was doing, or call and say, "Hey, you know, I hope
      5    you are okay," or anything like that?
      6          A.   No.
      7          Q.   Why was that?
      8          A.   Because, you know, she was over there handling
      9    some things, and that is a personal matter.
     10          Q.   Okay. Were you ever given the information --
     11    see, I have a lot of information now because I talked to a
     12    lot of people, and I know she was there for like an
     13    isolation watch and people weren't talking to her, they
     14    were just letting her try to deal with her problem
     15    herself.
     16               Were you ever given that information that she
     17    was over there in isolation watch and that is what she was
     18    there for?
     19          A.   No.
     20          Q.   Do you know today that is why she was there?
     21          A.   Are you telling me? Or are you asking me?
     22          Q.   I'm asking you, do you know today if that is
     23    what she was there for?
     24          A.   No.
     25          Q.   Let me ask you this.  Have you been keeping up

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4054 Image

                                                                 37

      1    with this in the papers, or do you avoid Lisa McPherson
      2    articles?
      3          A.   I avoid them.
      4          Q.   So you haven't read anything in the newspaper
      5    about Lisa Mcpherson?
      6          A.   I read something when it first started to come
      7    out. I read something recently.
      8          Q.   But the day-to-day stuff pounding the streets
      9    for much of the period between now and last December, you
      10   haven't been reading them on a regular basis?
      11         A.   No.
      12         Q.   Okay. So you weren't aware that any of this
      13   round-the-clock watch business, isolation watch, possible
      14   introspective rundown as a procedure later to come, you
      15   are not aware of any of that other than what you might
      16   have read in the paper?
      17         A.   Correct.
      18         Q.   And heard up until today, correct?
      19         A.   Correct.
      20         Q.   So who picked up Lisa's workload while she was
      21   staying at the hotel?
      22         A.   I don't know.
      23         Q.   I mean --
      24         A.   I mean, you have to realize, I wasn't in that
      25    division yet.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 8l3-821-3320

Page 4055 Image

                                                                 38

      1          Q.   Right. You also had a conversation, I believe,
      2    with Debbie Cook. Did you have a conversation with Debbie
      3    Cook about this?
      4          A.   Debbie Cook was the one that told me --
      5          Q.   She's the one that told you --
      6          A.   -- that Lisa had passed'away.
      7          Q.   That was when, do you remember what day that
      8    was?  Was it the night she passed `away?
      9          A.   It was the night she passed away, yes, late.
     10          Q.   So it must have been late at night?
     11          A.   Yes.
     12          Q.   And that conversation took place by phone?
     13          A.   No, Bennetta called me at the apartment and
     14    asked me to meet her at the Clearwater Building. And I
     15    went to the Clearwater --
     16          Q.   You have to be more specific, what is the
     17    Clearwater Building?
     18          A.    The Clearwater Building is just a building right
     19    there on Cleveland and Ft. Harrison that, you know, it is
     20    like an open hall that the community can come and hold
     21    events.  It is just a really nice building.
     22          Q.   Owned by the church?
     23          A.   Yes.
     24          Q.   Is that an office that is open to the public, or
     25    open to just staff?

              KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4056 Image

                                                                 39

      1          A.   No, it is actually open to public. It was an
      2    old bank that was really nicely renovated, and we actually
      3    invite community to come over and have their social events
      4    there.
      5          Q.   So you met Bennetta there late at night?
      6          A.   I met Bennetta there, David was there, and so
      7    was Debbie Cook.
      8          Q.    Just those three?
      9          A.    Yes.
     10          Q.    Okay. What time was that, that you can
     11    remember?
     12          A.    I have to say between eleven and twelve. It was
     13    late, at night.
     14          Q.    All right. Were you told, prior to you
     15    arriving, why you were -- what had happened to Lisa?  Or
     16    did you get that information once you got there?
     17          A.    I got that information once I got there.
     18          Q.    Who gave you the information specifically?
     19          A.    Debbie did.
     20          Q.    What did she tell you?
     21          A.    She told me that Lisa had passed away that
     22    afternoon. And, you know, I -- I think, if anything, that
     23    was the main thing that I remember. The rest I remember,
     24    I was crying and, you know, asked what happened. You
     25    know, I was pretty upset.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4057 Image

            [NOTE:  Page 40 appears to be missing from the source]

                                                                 41

      1    got there, anything about the course. It is a question I
      2    have asked forty-some people before her. There has not
      3    been an objection by a lawyer.
      4                      MR. CACCIATORE: Oh, I understand because I
      5    have asked the other lawyers. But my client is going to
      6    be deposed in about two weks --
      7    MR. McGARRY: In a civil case?
      8                      MR. CACCIATORE: -- in the civil case.
      9    That lawyer made it clear he's going to do all kind of
      10   things. He said that on the radio. And I just need to
      11   maintain consistency.
      12                     I'm not trying to interfere with your
      13   investigation,but I just think that her religious
      14   practices, unless you think she knows something --
      15   MR. McGARRY: I'm not asking for anything
      16   to do with religious practice. All she has to tell me is
      17   if she's clear or not clear.
      18                     MR. CACCIATORE: Oh, okay.
      19                     MR. McGARRY: It is a simple question. I'm
      20   not going to go into anything about the course or
      21   anything.
      22                     MR. CACCIATORE: Okay. You can answer
      23   that.
      24         A.   No, I'm not clear.
      25

                       KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4058 Image

                                                                 42

      1    BY MR. McGARRY:
      2          Q.   All right. Did you notice anything unusual
      3    physically about Lisa? I read your prior statement when
      4    the police talked to you way back and you mentioned she
      5    had a bruise on her leg you recall?
      6          A.   Uh-huh.
      7          Q.   Can you describe that to me, please, as best you
      8    can.
      9          A.   It was a bruise, it was toward the back of her
     10    leg. You know, she had pretty fair skin so it was easy to
     11    notice.
     12               I asked her, like, "Wow, what happened there?"
     13               She said she bumped into the desk. And it
     14    wasn't really unusual, because she was at times kind of
     15    clumsy.
     16          Q.   Does she bruise easily, do you think?
     17          A.   I don't know.
     18          Q.   The funeral for Lisa, that was where, was that
     19    here, or in Dallas?
     20          A.   It was in Dallas.
     21          Q.   In Dallas? Who from here went, if you know?
     22          A.   I know Bennetta went, for sure. I don't know
     23    who else went.
     24         Q. Who would you describe as being Lisa's closest
     25    friend in Clearwater?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4059 Image

                                                                 43

      1          A.   I would say -- I mean, Brenda and Bennetta.
      2          Q.   Brenda is Brenda who?
      3          A.   Hubert, Brenda Hubert.
      4          Q.   Hubert?
      5          A.   Yes.
      6          Q.   Who is Brenda Hubert?
      7          A.   She's also a sales consultant at ANC, who works
      8    at AMC.  I don't know how long she has been there, but
      9    they were friends back in Dallas, and they had mutual
     10    interests such as country music dancing.
     11          Q.   So you also were involved in the Winter
     12    Wonderland production?
     13          A.   Uh-huh, yes.
     14          Q.   Was just about everybody at ANC? It seems like
     15    they were.
     16          A.   Not everybody. But, you know, a good number of
     17 people1 were.
     18          Q.   Is Brenda a parishioner of the church, also?
     19          A.   Yes.
     20          Q.   Is everybody in the company?
     21          A.   No.
     22          Q.   Not everybody?
     23          A.   No.
     24          Q.   I was just curious. I wondered.
     25          A.   Nope.


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4060 Image

                                                                 44

      1          Q.   Just so I make it clear, you never had any
      2    conversation with Lisa, after she got back from Orlando,
      3    she never called the condominium, you never called, or
      4    went over there, or wrote you a letter, or anything?
      5          A.   That is correct.
      6          Q.   Okay. One more thing I wanted to ask.  What
      7    does this mean, and not being a member of the church, you
      8    can probably help out here.
      9              "She had done several ethics handlings at her
     10    work, AMC Publishing, owned and operated by David and
     11    Bennetta Slaughter in Clearwater."
     12               I better read the whole paragraph so you know
     13    what this refers to.  "Since then, up until her psychotic
     14    break on November 18th of 1995, she had done several
     15    ethics handlings at her work, AMC Publishing, owned and
     16    operated by David and Bennetta Slaughter.  She had been
     17    writing O/W's for weeks and was acting strangely in the
     18    last couple of days prior to her break, which was not
     19    reported to Flag."
     20               Now, what does that mean?
     21          A.   Mmm, I mean, basically what it means is that she
     22    had -- you know, ethics, first of all, is a personal
     23    thing.  They are the things that you feel, based on your
     24    knowing what is correct and what is wrong, what you feel
     25    bad about and know you shouldn't be doing.

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4061 Image

                                                                 45

      1               So from what I understand that you told me is
      2    that she, you know, had some things that she didn't feel
      3    very good about, some transgressions and, you know, if she
      4    did a program or was writing them up, or I don't know what
      5    exactly she was doing, but she was obviously -- obviously
      6    felt bad about certain, things she had done.
      7          Q.   What are O/W's?  What is that? Is that --
      8          A.   I mean, they are, you know, you operate on your
      9    moral code, but if you have a certain thing you do that
     10    you know are not in agreement with what makes you feel
     11    good, or they are transgressions against others, or
     12    against things that you believe, like I told this, client
     13    -- or I lied about something, that would be something that
     14    I know I would feel bad about.  To me that would be an
     15    overt.
     16                   MR CACCIATORE: Could you spell that?
     17          A.   It is O V E R T.
     18    BY MR. McGARRY:
     19          Q.   Well, the reason why I bring this paragraph up
     20    is because I wanted to see if you observed any of these,
     21    it says here, "... acting strangely in the last couple
     22    days prior to her break on November 18th."
     23              You lived with her during that period of time.
     24    Did you observe any of these observations that were made
     25    by apparently your boss, bosses?


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4062 Image

                                                                 46

      1          A.   Mmm, no.
      2          Q.   You didn't?
      3          A.   No.  I worked in one side of the company. She
      4    was on another side. We didn't see each other during the
      5    day.  And if we saw each other, it was late at night when
      6    we were ready to go to bed.
      7          Q.   Okay.  Plus this information may have come into
      8    the church by way of this system here, writing things and
      9    auditing or whatever, correct?
     10          A.   Correct.
     11          Q.   Explain how all that -- it must have been kind
     12    of an ugly thing for you to be left with a condominium
     13    that is not yours and all her stuff is in there.
     14               Did you end up packing all that, or who helped
     15    you do that?
     16          A.   Actually, before it was getting toward the
     17    holiday, I already had a planned trip to Honduras to go
     18    visit family. And I did ask --
     19          Q.   Is that where you are from, Honduras?
     20          A.   Yes.
     21          Q.   Are you an American citizen?
     22          A.   No. And, you know, I was concerned because I
     23    had to leave, I had a scheduled trip.
     24               And I was told, you know, I figure that Fannie
     25    would come over and somebody would handle that. I didn't

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4063 Image

                                                                 47

      1    have the particulars but --
      2                  MR. CACCIATORE: Let me interrupt you. You
      3    were told, who told you what?  Use a name.
      4          A.   Okay, well, Bennetta told me that she had talked
      5    to Fannie, you know, about coming over and handling Lisa's
      6    things.
      7               Because the reason I asked, I didn't know what
      8    to do with them.  Then she asked me to go ahead and
      9    organize, you know, to put everything in the way that
     10    somebody could easily come and pack it.
     11               So I organized Lisa's clothes. And, I mean,
     12    everything was still intact, nothing was moved.
     13               Then one Sunday my friend and I, who was
     14    visiting' me --
     15               MR. CACCIATORE: Friend?
     16          A.   Friend, Jime, J I M E, Perez. And we were -- he
     17    had been there with me during the day cleaning, doing some
     18    of the cleaning, then I was doing some of my own packing
     19    for my trip.
     20               And we were going downstairs and then I
     21    recognized Fannie, because I'd actually met her earlier in
     22    Dallas, you know.  I was completely surprised.
     23               And she got out of the car with what I know now,
     24    her two sisters.  I brought them up to the apartment and,
     25    you know, they said, "We came to get Lisa's things."

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4064 Image

                                                                 48

      1               I said, "Very well, come up here and then I'll
      2    show you."
      3               They went through the apartment. And her
      4    sisters specifically were asking for particular things
      5    that I didn't know about, such as rings and necklaces,
      6    wills, insurance, clothes.
      7          Q.   Didn't know anything about any of that?
      8          A.   I didn't know anything about any of that. I --
      9    specifically twice they asked me, those rings and necklace
     10    they were looking for belonged to Lisa's dad and that
     11    nobody else should have them but her mom.
     12               So, you know, I wasn't quite sure where they
     13    were going, so I clearly stated, you know, "I agree with
     14    you, I agree with you a hundred percent, but I don't
     15    really know what you are looking for."
     16               Then they were like, "Well, where is her jewelry
     17    box?"
     18               I said, "I really don't know what you are
     19    talking about. I never knew Lisa to wear jewelry. You
     20    know, you are welcome to go through the apartment and find
     21    whatever it is that you are looking for. I don't know
     22    anything about any insurance or wills."
     23               Then they asked me, "Had she bought any
     24    Christmas presents?"
     25               I brought a box and I mentioned to them she did

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4065 Image

                                                                 49

      1    buy one Christmas present, which was Bennetta's, and it
      2    was a dress. I asked them what they wanted me to do with
      3    it?  They told to go ahead and give it to Bennetta.
      4               And, you know, they asked me had she made any
      5    other recent purchases.  So I went through the closet and
      6    showed them Lisa had bought like a wardrobe, some nice
      7    clothes recently. They laid them out on the bed and said
      8    these would fit Lisa's cousin who was about the same size.
      9    I go, "Okay."
     10               So then I turned over my key to them, because I
     11    knew they were going to be staying there.  I told them,
     12    "This is my bedroom. I'll be packing it.  I'm getting
     13    ready to go to Honduras."  And I actually turned over the
     14    key to them that evening.
     15               Then after that, you know, I didn't have any
     16    access to the apartment unless they were there.  You know,
     17    I never thought --
     18          Q.   Did you give up the apartment pretty soon or
     19    quickly, or was that it?
     20          A.   That was it. I --
     21          Q.   I mean you gave up the apartment lease?
     22          A.   I never handled the lease.
     23          Q.   So you just left, that was it, you came back and
     24    got your stuff out of your room and that was it?
     25          A.   I came back and brought -- there was this

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4066 Image

                                                                 50

      1    particular piece of furniture they questioned about, a
      2    make-up dresser, little make-up dresser that Lisa lent to
      3    T.C. earlier.
      4          Q.   Who?
      5          A.   T.C. Applebaum. This little make-up dresser was
      6    in the room where I was going to move into, and Lisa asked
      7    me if I wanted it.  I said, "Actually, I don't. My
      8    furniture is white, it doesn't match." It was cherry. So
      9    then she asked T.C.  if she wanted to borrow it.  T.C. said
     10    sure.
     11               So then her family asked me about that piece of
     12    furniture. I said, "Yeah, I know where it is, let me go
     13    get it."
     14               So I went over and got it from T.C. who lived
     15     right down the street.  Then on that trip I came and
     16     actually took some of my personal things out, some of the
     17     clothes.
     18               But after that, actually, I didn't come back to
     19     the apartment, my friend Jime, then my other friend Chris
     20     Alexander, were actually the ones who moved the furniture
     21     out of the apartment.
     22          Q.   You moved to where, to where you are now?
     23          A.   No, I moved to T.C., I moved in with T.C.
     24               The furniture was, you know, it was a bed, two
     25    little tables and a dresser, and then the personal

                       KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4067 Image

                                                                 51

      1    clothes.
      2          Q.   The stuff from the hotel, how did that get back
      3    to Fannie, if you know?
      4          A.   I don't know.
      5          Q.   Did you ever see anything that came back from
      6     the hotel in Clearwater?  Did that ever come back through
      7     the condominium?  Or did it go straight to Fannie through
      8     another route?  Or do you know?
      9          A.   I don't know.
     10          Q.   So you never saw it?
     11          A.   No.
     12          Q.   Anything that she had there?
     13          A.   No.
     14                     MR. CACCIATORE: Does Chris Alexander live
     15     in Clearwater?
     16                     THE WITNESS: He does.
     17                     MR. CACCIATORE: Where does Jime, if I
     18     pronounced it right, live?
     19                     THE WITNESS: He lives in Dallas.
     20                     MR. McGARRY: Gloria, I think that is all
     21     of the questions I have for you. If you would like to
     22     take a break, we can. These guys probably have a couple
     23     questions and we can be done.

     24                    THE WITNESS: Okay.

     25                    MR. NcGARRY: You can plunge ahead, or --

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4068 Image

                                                                 52

      1               THE WITNESS: I would like a break.
      2               MR. McGARRY: All right.
      3         (Recess taken).
      4               MR. McGARRY: I have a couple more
      5    questions.
      6    BY MR. McGARRY:
      7          Q.   Gloria, did you ever have an occasion to be lent
      8    any money by, Lisa, borrow any money, have to pay it back
      9    or anything like that?
     10          A.   Yes.
     11          Q.   Could you explain that, please.
     12          A.   Yes.  There was a situation going on where one
     13     of my uncles was like -- actually, he was an illegal
     14     immigrant and he was caught and stuck in a jail in Mexico.
     15               And at that point I was actually handling the --
     16     the bills were coming to our house, I had Kurt Paine sign
     17     blank checks, and that is how I was paying bills.
     18          Q.   I need to know at what point we are talking
     19     about.
     20          A.   This is after she had gone to the Ft. Harrison.
     21     That would have been, I guess, November.
     22          Q.   But before she died?
     23          A.   Yes. So then this situation came up.  And, you
     24     know, I really thought, well, how can I help?  So I did,
     25     there was a check I wrote out to my name, twenty five

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4069 Image

                                                                 53

      1    hundred dollars. okay --
      2               MR. CACCIATORE: Give him that.
      3          A.   Actually, 12/3.
           BY MR. McGARRY:
      5          Q.   All right.
      6          A.   So, you know, the plan was actually to lend that
      7    money out.  But the money actually sat in my account
      8    because I was thinking, you know, I wanted to make sure I
      9    would be able to replace it.   I wrote the check. And then
     10    I wrote the check back to her.
     11          Q.   All right.
     12               MR. CACCIATORE:  When you say you wrote the
     13    check back to her, money was redeposited in her account?
     14               THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
     15    BY MR. McGARRY:
     16          Q.   All right, so you loaned yourself money from
     17    Lisa?
     18          A.   Correct.
     19          Q.   Without her permission?
     20          A.   Correct.
     21          Q.   Then paid it back?
     22          A.   Right.
     23          Q.   And that amount was twenty-five hundred. Now,
     24    what was that used for?
     25          A.   It wasn't actually used. It sat in my account.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4070 Image

                                                                 54

      1          Q.   And the purpose was, though, to help out your
      2    uncle in Mexico?
      3          A.   It was going to be.
      4          Q.   And it wasn't needed?
      5          A.   No, actually I didn't go through with it because
      6    I wanted to make sure it would be able to be paid back,
      7    but it actually didn't happen.
      8          Q.   I see. Okay, so there was no communication
      9    between you and Lisa when this occurred, this was
     10    something you did on your own?
     11          A.   That is correct.
     12          Q.   All right, so how is it, though, you were able
     13    to write a check, from her into your account without
     14    writing her name on the check?  You wrote her name on the
     15    check?  You signed her check?
     16          A.   No, I already had checks signed from somebody
     17    else, Kurt, who happened to have an account with her.
     18         Q. I'm confused, Kurt --
     19    MR. CACCIATORE: Explain the relationship
     20    that existed between Lisa and Kurt in the past --
     21               THE WITNESS: Okay.
     22               MR. CACCIATORE: -- in the account.
     23     BY MR. McGARRY:
     24          Q.   Who is Kurt?
     25          A.   Kurt Paine was somebody that was -- you know, I

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4071 Image

                                                                 55

      1    don't know if they were engaged, but they were boyfriend
      2    and girlfriend at some point.
      3          Q.   Okay.
      4          A.   When I lived in Dallas.
      5          Q.   All right.
      6          A.   Then he still -- they still had an account
      7    together, a joint account.  You know, I don't know why.
      8          Q.   All right, in Dallas?
      9          A.   No, here in Clearwater.
     10          Q.   Okay.  All right.
     11          A.   Then up until that point they still had the
     12    account and it was under his name so he was able to sign
     13    some checks for me.  I told him I was handling her --
     14    paying the bills.
     15          Q.   Okay, so that account had sufficient enough
     16    money for that check, twenty-five hundred dollars?
     17          A.   Yes.
     18          Q.   Did she have another account besides that?
     19          A.   I don't know.
     20          Q.   Do you know how much was in that account?
     21          A.   I don't.
     22          Q.   You don't know if it was more than one account?
     23          A.   No.
     24               MR. McGARRY: All right, these guys
     25    probably have a few questions I neglected to ask, and if

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4072 Image

                                                                     56

      1    you will indulge them, we'll be through.
      2               MR. CACCIATORE:      And who are you
      3    gentlemen?
      4               SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I'm Lee Strope,
      5    Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
      6               And this is Wayne Andrews.
      7                            EXAMINATION
      8     BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
      9          Q.   We saw a photograph one time of the inside of
     10     Lisa's apartment.  She had some living room furniture and
     11     things.  Do you know what happened to those things?  You
     12     didn't mention them.
     13          A.   Yes, actually when Fannie and her two sisters
     14     came, the furniture was there, they slept in the
     15     furniture, and, you know, I was told they were going to
     16     take it back with them.
     17          Q.   Did Lisa have any property that may have
     18     belonged to the church that you took or returned?
     19          A.   That I took or returned?  No.
     20          Q.   Yes.
     21          A.   No.
     22          Q.   So as far as you know, there was no jewelry, and
     23     just furniture and personal belongings?
     24          A.   As far as I know, yes.
     25          Q.   Were you ever at the condominium maybe a couple

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4073 Image

                                                                      57

      1    of days after Lisa'went to the Ft. Harrison when someone
      2    came to get her personal belongings for her?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   You have no knowledge of that?
      5          A.   No.
      6          Q.   Do you know who delivered her vehicle back to
      7    the condominium?
      8          A.   I don't.
      9          Q.   From the accident scene or from the garage?
     10          A.   No.
     11          Q.   Aside from your attorney, and I don't want to
     12    get into that conversation, but aside from your attorney,
     13    have you discussed this case or your testimony here today
     14    with anyone else?
     15          A.    No.
     16          Q.    Have you ever discussed Lisa McPherson with
     17    Brian Anderson or anybody from that office?
     18          A.    No.
     19          Q.    Do you know who Brian Anderson is?
     20          A.    Yes, I do.
     21          Q.    You never discussed your testimony here today
     22    with anyone other than your attorney?
     23          A.     Correct.
     24          Q.    And you did not go to the Ft. Harrison when Lisa
     25    was there?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4074 Image

                                                                      58

      1          A.   Correct.
      2          Q.   Were you aware she was having some medical
      3    problems?
      4          A.   No.
      5          Q.   Was Lisa on any kind of medication that you know
      6    of?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   Did she have a doctor that you knew of?
      9          A.   I don't know.
      10              MR. CACCIATORE: Did she ever have any
      11   medicine at home you saw, prescribed medicine?
      l2              THE WITNESS: No.
      13   BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
      14         Q.   So you would describe her as healthy?
      15         A.   Yes.
      16         Q.   She has been described as physically fit and in
      17    good shape and an exerciser and dancer and someone who was
      18    pretty high on life and someone who was pretty radiant.
      19              Is that how you would describe `her?
      20         A.   Yes.
      21         Q.   But no apparent physical problems?
      22         A.   No.
      23         Q.   What would you estimate her weight to be when
      24    you saw her?  Was she healthy?
      25         A.   Yes, she looked nice.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4075 Image

                                                                 59

      1          Q.   Did you notice that toward the end of her life
      2    or her working career that she missed a lot of time due to
      3    illness?
      4          A.   No.
      5          Q.   No?  We noticed with the records that we have
      6    obtained pertainiing to her employment that Lisa gave a
      7    large percentage of her income back to the church.
      8               Is that required of people who'work there that
      9    are Scientologists?
     10          A.   No.
     11          Q.   That is not required?
     12          A.   No.
     13          Q.   Do you give that same percentage back to the
     14    church?
     15          A.   I don't know what percentage you are talking
     16    about.
     17          Q.   A very large percentage.
     18          A.   You know, I donate.
     19          Q.   I think we talked about eighty percent.
     20          A.   I said eighty percent?
     21          Q.   No, Lisa.
     22          A.   I don't know what percent she gave.
     23          Q.   Is that average for Scientologists, do you
     24    think? Is that required?
     25          A.   I don't know. I don't know that it is required.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4076 Image

                                                                 60

      1          Q.   Are you paid regularly, like every two weeks, or
      2    every week?
      3          A.   Uh-huh.
      4          Q.   Was Lisa having a problem at work that you know
      5    of, maybe with finances or --
      6          A.   No.
      7          Q.   From what we could see, she didn't take a lot of
      8    money home.  Did she live frugally?  Was she extravagant?
      9    How was her financial status, as far as you know?
     10          A.   Mmm, you know, financially, she had -- her
     11    furniture was new. I mean, the apartment was fully
     12    furnished when I got there, very nice furniture.
     13               You know, I never knew her to need anything. We
     14    ate wherever we wanted to, bought the things that we --
     15    you know, she bought make-up or lotions and clothes that
     16    she wanted.  I never saw money to be a problem.
     17          Q.   Did you have any indication that Lisa was
     18    planning to move back to Texas?
     19          A.   No.
     20          Q.   No?  She never mentioned that to you?
     21          A.   No.
     22          Q.   Did you have any indication that Lisa was
     23    thinking of leaving the organization?
     24         A.    No.
     25         Q.    Who owns AMC Publishing?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4077 Image

                                                                 61

      1          A.   Well, I mean, David, Bennetta and Jeff were the
      2    partners of the company.
      3          Q.   I guess what I'm asking is was the company
      4    Bennetta's?  Or the Scientologists'?   Who owns the
      5    company?
      6          A.   David, Bennetta and Jeff.  And --
      7          Q.   Did they become Scientologists after they owned
      8    AMC, or before?                                     `
      9          A.   I don't know.
     10          Q.   You don't know?
     11          A.   No.
     12               SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have
     13    anything else. Thank you.
     14                      EXAMINATION
     15    BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
     16          Q.   Since you do Lisa's job now, can you explain how
     17    Lisa can make $140,000 in 1995?
     18          A.   How could she make one hundred --
     19          Q.   She made $140,000 in 1995 and donated
     20    seventy-some odd thousand dollars back to the church.  Now
     21    you are doing her job.
     22               Can you explain to me how someone can earn that
     23    much money, how she earned that much money in this job?
     24          A.   Okay. Well, I mean, it is a sales job where,
     25    you know, just like any other sales job, you are paid on

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4078 Image

                                                                      62

      1    commissions. Different structure in different companies,
      2    but,  you know, you can sell, I mean, you prospect every
      3    day for business.  You get referrals.  And you can grow
      4    your business as big as you can possibly grow it.
      5               I mean, I make sales. You make sales every day.
      6    It is not hard at all if you have developed a big client
      7    base  from, you know, being successful, to actually make
      8    that kind of money.
      9          Q.   Not revealing a figure, but are you up in that
      10   area  that Lisa was in, today?  You are in her job.  Are
      11   you up in the $140,000 range now a year?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   Where did you live from.June of `95 until
      14   September of `95 before you moved in --
      15         A.   I lived at home with David and Bennetta.
      16         Q.   You lived there with them?
      17         A.   Yes.
      18         Q.   Is that still 300 Buttonwood?
      19         A.   Yes.
      20         Q.   So they were living in 300 Buttonwood in `95?
      21         A.   Yes.
      22         Q.   Whose suggestion was it that you move in with
      23   Lisa?
      24         A.   It wasn't actually anybody's suggestion.  I had
      25   already been asking around and, you know, my intention was

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4079 Image

                                                                 63

      1    to originally get my own place. As I mentioned, I wasn't
      2    in a situation financially, and I didn't care to live by
      3    myself.
      4          Q.   Did you approach Lisa and ask her to move in?
      5          A.   Yes, I did.
      6                   MR. CACCIATORE: Do you have any
      7    recollection  about Bennetta talking to you?
      8                   THE WITNESS: Well, I mean, Bennetta --
      9                   MR. CACCIATORE: Well, let me -- back up,
     10    maybe this will jar your memory.
     11               Do you recall Lisa talking to Bennetta
     12    about Lisa moving in at Bennetta's house?  Do you have any
     13    knowledge of that, or recollection of that?
     14                   THE WITNESS: No.
     15                   MR. CACCIATORE: No? Okay.
     16                   THE WITNESS: You know, from what I
     17    remember, it was like Bennetta knew what my plan was when
     18    I came here.  Obviously I was going to be at home a while
     19    and not making any money.
     20               Then she mentioned to me Lisa lived by
     21    herself.  I got with Lisa, and it was definitely ideal for
     22    both of us.
     23    BY DETECTIVE  SERGEANT ANDREWS:
     24          Q.   So it could have been suggested by Bennetta, it
     25    might have been a mutual thing? `

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4080 Image

                                                                 64

      1          A.   Yes.
      2          Q.   Lisa spent a lot of time -- well, I was curious,
      3    correct me if I'm wrong, I got the flavor of the
      4    impression from your testimony that you and Lisa didn't
      5    have a relationship. But I understand from previous
      6    people that Lisa did spend a lot of time at 300
      7    Buttonwood, too.
      8          A.   That she didn't?  Or did?
      9          Q.   She did spend a lot of time at 300 Buttonwood.
     10    I had somebody telling me basically while the house was
     11    being constructed and stuff she used to stay there
     12    overnight, and I don't know if she ever watched their
     13    daughter or son.  Do they have a daughter, or son?
     14          A.   Yes, a daughter.
     15          Q.   So I found it strange you lived with David and
     16    Bennetta, but somebody described Lisa spent a lot of time
     17    there, too, and you guys didn't mix it up at all, being
     18    younger and -- I mean, my understanding, I saw Bennetta,
     19    you are younger than Lisa, and Lisa is younger than
     20    Bennetta, so --
     21          A.   Yes. Well, first of all, when I moved to the
     22    house in June it wasn't being constructed.
     23          Q.   No, I'm just saying I'm just laying background,
     24    she did spend a lot of time there while it was being
     25    constructed, and after it was constructed she spent a lot

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4081 Image

                                                                 65

      1    of time at Bennetta's house?
      2          A.   She would come over, she would come over and
      3    tan, we had a pool, just like my other girlfriends do on
      4    the weekends.
      5          Q.   Did they have a spare bed, she would sleep there
      6    overnight?
      7          A.   We have a spare bedroom that guests can come and
      8    use.
      9          Q.   I mean, while you were there for the three
      10    months before moving in with her, did Lisa come there and
      11    spend nights at Buttonwood, 300 Buttonwood?
      12         A.   She would come once in a while, yes, and stay in
      13    our spare bedroom.
      14         Q.   Who was paying the extra rent at the condominium
      15    when you moved?
      16         A.   The extra rent?
      17         Q.   Extra rent, yes?
      18         A.   She was paying all of the rent.
      19         Q.   Well, my understanding in interviewing the
      20    landlord there, she was paying a certain amount of rent.
      21    And when you moved in in September, the landlord charged
      22    her more money. She was charged more money for you living
      23    there.
      24              And I found it kind of strange, if you were
      25    friends, that she was picking up the tab for that.  You

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4082 Image

                                                                 66

      1    were not paying any rent?
      2          A.   I wasn't aware of that. I don't know what
      3    arrangement she had.
      4          Q.   You weren't aware there was extra money being
      5    charged?
      6          A.   I wasn't aware.
      7          Q.   Apparently somebody was paying it. Maybe
      8    Bennetta.
      9               Does the company AMC use Scientology technology
     10    or Hubbard technology, in their business practices, I don't
     Ii    want to say practices, but, you know, formation, as far as
     12    how it operates?
     13          A.   We use the L. Ron Hubbard administrative
     14    technology.
     15          Q.   You said you are into sales. It is a good
     16    place, the harder you work, the more money you make. How
     17    many hours a week do you average working?
     18          A.   Forty.
     19          Q.   About forty hours a week?
     20          A.   Yeah.
     21          Q.   Okay. Now, you mentioned that, you know, you
     22    have bills and things like that. And I did recognize the
     23    address of 300 Buttonwood as being Bennetta's home.
     24         A.    Uh-huh.
     25         Q.    Do you pay rent there?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS    813-821-3320

Page 4083 Image

                                                                 67

      1          A.   No.
      2          Q.   Okay, so do you pay food bills there?
      3          A.   Yes, sometimes.
      4          Q.   Okay. Like a board, sort of a board? My
      5    question is what kind of bills do you have if you live at
      6    Bennetta and David's house?
      7          A.   I don't really have any. I mean, I have my
      8    personal, you know. I have a car.
      9          Q.   Insurance that goes,with the car?
     10          A.   Right.
     11          Q.   Unfortunately.
     12          A.   Right.
     13          Q.   Were you working AMC in July and August of `95?
     14          A.   Yes.
     15          Q.   Okay. Now, my understanding is that Lisa was
     16    gone from work for,over a month.  Do you remember that?
     17          A.   I -- you know, like I said, I was in a different
     18    division. She was in a different area of the company. We'
     19    didn't work together.  But I never knew -- you know, I
     20    never knew her to be absent for months and not see her.
     21          Q.   When you took your sales job, did you acquire
     22    previous commissions from someone else?
     23          A.   No.
     24          Q.   Okay, so you had to start out new at the bottom
     25    of the  pile, and then any commissions you got, that starts

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4084 Image

                                                                 68

      1    your base now and how yu get your money?  If you leave
      2    now, say you want to go to Honduras and visit family for a
      3    month, do you retain those commissions, or are they
      4    transferred to someone?
      5          A.   Well, I mean, if they are sales I have made and
      6    I have set up to the future, I mean, that is a sale I
      7    created and the commission would go to me, just like any
      8    other sales job. But if somebody comes in while I was
      9    gone and they make a sale --
      10         Q.   That is their sale?
      11         A.   That is their sale.
      12         Q.   I found it strange, because we did get a
      13   personnel file through Mr. Cacciatore on Lisa, I found a
      14   form that transferred Lisa's commissions to someone else
      15   in the office.  And I was wondering if you were under the
      16   same type of agreement with Bennetta and David, or maybe
      17   you don't know that you are.
      18         A. I have never -- I mean, I have never left. I
      19   have never had to come up or look into that situation.
      20         Q. Okay.  Could you give us just a quick little
      21   overview of life with Lisa from September to November.
      22   know you said she was kind of happy-go-lucky, but just
      23   give us a little -- was she hard to live with, or was it
      24   easy to live with her, you know, just something like that.
      25   We are trying to put together what her life was at that

                       KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4085 Image


                                                                     69
      1    time, and it has been difficult'.
      2          A.   Right. It was very, very easy to live with her.
      3    I know she loved having me around. I liked being around.
      4               When I said around, the conveniency of the
      5    things that would be done when she got home, she had a
      6    clean place to go to. Then on the weekends if we both
      7    happened to be home we would spend that morning together
      8    either, you know, just laughing, or having coffee or
      9    whatever.  But during the day, you know, I didn't really
     10    see her.
     11               As far as any social activities together, we
     12    never went out.  We worked on Winter Wonderland together
     13    and we would find ourselves at certain meetings promoting
     14    Winter Wonderland.
     15          Q.   Did you see Lisa on that Wednesday before she
     16    left for Orlando?
     17          A.   Yes, I saw her Wednesday morning.
     18          Q.   Could you describe her, could you give me her
     19    height approximately on that date, height, weight, color
     20    of hair and color of eyes?
     21          A.   I'm not very good at heights.
     22          Q.   Okay.
     23          A.   She was six, six something.
     24          Q.   Six foot? And weight? Usually you can base it
     25    off yourself. That is how I look at --


                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-8213320

Page 4086 Image

                                                                 70

      1          A.   Off myself?
      2          Q.   I know it is tough.  That's why you gave me six
      3    foot.
      4                  MR. CACCIATORE:   How tall are you?
                         THE WITNESS:  Five.
      6                  MR. CACCIATORE: How much do you weigh?
      7                  THE WITNESS: I weigh one hundred two
      8    pounds.
      9                  MR. CACCIATORE: Almost as much as me!
     10          A.  Let's see. I'm just trying to gauge her here.
     11    I don't know what a person that tall --
     12    BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
     13          Q.   All right, color of hair?
     14          A.   Color of hair?  Maybe a little bit blonder than
     15    that (indicating court reporter).
     16          Q.   Like reddish blond?
     17          A.   More like blond, though.
     18          Q.   Dirty blond or something?
     19          A.   Yes.
     20          Q.   Okay, dirty blond. Color of eyes?
     21          A.   Hazel.
     22          Q.   Okay. Now, we would go back to the term about
     23    handle some things, you know, the term, and I don't want
     24    to delve into your religion, but after talking to fifty
     25    some odd people, I have a pretty good handle on the Church

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4087 Image

                                                                 71

      1    of Scientology religion.
      2               But in your mind, with your education, not only
      3    college but education in the church, what did it mean to
      4    you when Bennetta said she went to the church to -- or
      5    went to stay at the church to handle some things?  Was
      6    that overt withholds, was that RPF, was that -- you know,
      7    what was it?
      8          A.   RPF?
      9          Q.   I doubt it, but, you know --
      10         A.   I don't know what -- first of all, I'm not sure,
      11    RPF, I'm not sure that is a term.
      12              What that meant to me was that Lisa had gone to
      13    the Ft. Harrison, there were obviously things that were
      14    bothering her that were keeping her from being happy and
      15    doing the things that she wanted to do, and that she was
      16    there getting the services that would help her, and it was
      17    a private and spiritual thing that I wouldn't even ask her
      18    about.
      19         Q.   You said you were getting ready to leave for a
      20    holiday?
      21         A.   For Honduras.
      22         Q.   Is it a holiday in Honduras, or is that the ten
      23    you are using for vacation?
      24         A.   No, I said the holidays were coming because this
      25    was -- I had had a trip planned for the holidays, I was

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4088 Image

                                                                 72

      1    going to be in Honduras during Christmas.
      2          Q.   Okay, so in early December, this'would have been
      3    the week of December 7th or 8th or something, you were
      4    planning to go to Honduras for Christmas?
      5          A.   The trip was already planned for months, but the
      6    relevancy of that was it was at that time, you know, that
      7    I had already planned and was thinking, what is going to
      8    happen to the apartment.
      9               Then I happened to go downstairs, and to my
      10    surprise Fannie was there. Then I mentioned to her, "This
      11    is my bedroom, this is my things in here, the apartment, is
      12    pretty much yours, this is Lisa's things, and I'll be
      13    taking my things out and moving out."
      14         Q.   So the holiday was Christmas, that holiday?
      15         A.   Yes, that is the holiday I was referring to.
      16              MR. CACCIATORE: Gloria, I don't think you
      17    intended to do this, or even gave a date, but I think
      18    there may be some confusion about when Lisa passed away
      19    and when Fannie and her sisters came here.
      20              In relationship to when -- in relationship
      21    to when Lisa passed away, how long afterward was it this
      22    event occurred with Fannie and her sisters?
      23              THE WITNESS: Well, it was after the
      24    funeral.  I don't know when the funeral happened, but I
      25    would say a couple weeks.

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4089 Image

                                                                 73

      1    BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
      2          Q.   So it was getting into the Christmas -- that is
      3    why I found it strange.
      4                     MR. CACCIATORE: Well, the reason how she
      5    answered it sounded like it was the next day.
      6    BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:    -
      7          Q.   One last question. What day did you get home
      8    from Orlando, Sunday?
      9          A.   Sunday.
     10                     DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I have no
     11    more.
     12                     SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I just have one.
     13                     CONTINUED EXAMINATION
     14    BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
     15          Q.   Again, we are asking you because we are trying
     16    to find out what Lisa, as far as AMC Publishing, did.  So
     17    it is not that we are trying to pry or anything, but do
     18    you have a set commission on sales?  Is there a figure,
     19    four percent, two percent, three percent?
     20          A.    Uh-huh.
     21          Q.    What is that percentage?
     22          A.    It is five percent.
     23          Q.    Five percent?
     24          A.    And there is -- you can earn an extra two
     25    percent.

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4090 Image

                                                                 74

      1          Q.   So I'm not a math whiz, but if you are getting
      2    five percent commission and you earn one hundred forty
      3    thousand, that is two-million eight in sales in a year.
      4               Do you do that kind of sales in a year?
      5          A.   Yes -- do I?
      6          Q.   Could you?
      7          A.   Absolutely. That is my goal.
      8          Q.   Well, Lisa made one hundred forty thousand. At.
      9    five percent, that is $2,800,000 a year.  Is it possible
     10    to do that?
     11          A.   Yes.
     12          Q.   It is?
     13          A.   Yes.
     14          Q.   How many salesmen do you have there?
     15                   MR. McGARRY: He's going to be asking for a
     16    job here.
     17    BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
     18          Q.   Yes, put in my application. How many sales
     19    people do you have?
     20          A.   Let's see, there is me, Pat, John, DeeDee,
     21    Brenda.  There are five right now in my division that sell
     22    card pack and magazine, and there are two other sales reps
     23    that sell specifically our list services.
     24          Q.   So those are the people in that office that
     25    could make the most money, obviously?

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4091 Image

                                                                 75

      1          A.   Sales?
      2          Q.   Yes.
      3          A.   Yes, you know, like I don't really have any
      4    reality because I never really worked in other companies,
      5    but from what I understand, I know that I can make --
      6          Q.   You know all of the salesmen there today?
      7          A.   Yes.
      8          Q.   Are they all Scientologists, all of the sales
      9   people?
     10          A.   No, they're not.
     11                    SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have
     12    anything   further.
     13                       CONTINUED EXAMINATION
     14    BY MR. McGARRY:
     15          Q.   I have one thing, then we're done.
     16               I saw a name, Katie Chamberlain works there,
     17    right?
     18          A.   Uh-huh.
     19          Q.   She still work there?
     20          A.   Yes.
     21          Q.   She's with the church, right?
     22          A.   Yes.
     23          Q.   Did she handle the ethics thing with Lisa?
     24          A.   I don't know.
     25          Q.   Was she close to Lisa?

                  KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4092 Image

                                                                 76

      1          A.   They knew each other from Dallas and --
      2          Q.   She came from Dallas, too, right?
      3          A.   Yes, and I think the bond between them two was
      4    Katie loved country music.
      5          Q.   Oh, really? Okay.
      6                   MR. McGARRY: We are done.
      7                   SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I just have one more
      8    thing.
      9                      CONTINUED EXAMINATION
     10    BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
     11          Q.   When did you start at AMC in Clearwater?
     12          A.   June of `95 when I moved here.
     13          Q.   Do you know a person named Kay Proctor?,
     14          A.   Yes, I do.
     15          Q.   Were you here when she started?
     16          A.   I think Kay'was already -- I actually --
     17          Q.   She had already been gone?
     18          A.   I think she had already been gone. I knew her
     19    back from Dallas.
     20              ______________________________________________
     21              WHEREUPON, THE STATEMENT WAS CONCLUDED
     22              _______________________________________________
     23
     24
     25

                     KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4093 Image

                                                                 77



      1                               CERTIFICATE OF OATH
      2     STATE OF FLORIDA          )
      3     COUNTY OF PINELLAS        )
      4     I, the undersigned authority, certify that
            GLORIA CRUZ personally appeared before me and was duly
      5     sworn.

      6     WITNESS my hand and official seal this 19th day
            of September, 1997.
      9
                                Notary Public - State of Florida.
      10
                                              LYNNE J. IDE
      11                                  COMMISSION # CC 467604
                                           EXPIRES JUN 14,1999
                                               BONDED THRU
      12                                  ATLANTIC BONDING CO. INC.
                     REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
      13
            STATE OF FLORIDA        )
      14
           COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
      15
                     I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Professional
      16    Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
            stenographically report the statement of GLORIA CRUZ; and
      17    that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
            stenographic notes.
      18
                      I further certify that I am not a relative,
      19    employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
            am I a relative or employee of any of the parties
      20    attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
      21    financially interested in the action.
      22              DATED this 19th  day of September, 1997.
      23                              LYNNE J IDE,
      24                              RPR, PMR;
      25

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - 813-821-3320

Page 4094 Image

Page 4095 Image

Page 4096 Image

Page 4097 Image

Page 4098 Image

Page 4099 Image

Page 4100 Image

Page 4101 Image

Page 4102 Image

Page 4103 Image

Page 4104 Image

Page 4105 Image

Page 4106 Image

Page 4107 Image

Page 4108 Image

Page 4109 Image