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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Doctor Wood, did you obtain permission from
3 FDLE to use their offices for the Inside Edition
4 interview?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And from whom at FDLE did you get that
7 permission?
8 A Darrell McLaughlin.
9 Q And who is that?
10 MS. ANDERSON: What's his job, you mean?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. Who is it?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, there's Tim and Bob and
13 Jerry and Darrell are the higher-ups, Tim being the
14 boss. And Tim and Bob weren't there that day, so I
15 went to Darrell. And I think he's -- what do I want
16 to say? He's their liaison with legislature, but he
17 was the highest-ranking individual in the building
18 that day.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q And did you tell him what the purpose of
21 the interview was?
22 A Yes, that I was here in Tallahassee for a
23 meeting and happened to need to do an interview about a
24 case in my jurisdiction, and was it all right if I used
25 one of their generic conference rooms, and he said yes.
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1 Q And did you tell him that FDLE was involved
2 in that investigation?
3 A No. I didn't even think about it. Yeah, I
4 probably did mention it.
5 Q And did FDLE have any objection to you
6 doing the interview at their headquarters?
7 A No. It was strictly under the
8 understanding that I just happened to be in
9 Tallahassee, and were I not in Tallahassee, it would
10 have been done somewhere else.
11 Q Now, what, if anything, did you review in
12 the way of files or records prior to the Inside Edition
13 interview?
14 A The autopsy report and all files that were
15 within my office.
16 Q And what did those files include?
17 A Everything I've indicated to you.
18 Q And so that would include lab results,
19 photos, stains, hospital records and the like?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Were you paid for the interview?
22 A No.
23 Q Was any kind of remuneration made on your
24 behalf as a result of the interview?
25 A No. And I didn't go out for dinner or for
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1 drinks or anything thereafter. I didn't get one penny.
2 And I must comment that I may not have
3 reviewed the slides prior to that interview. I had
4 reviewed them. Doctor Davis, the pathologist actually
5 doing the autopsy, had asked to see them, and it's
6 possible that I had sent them to him immediately before
7 that. So it may have been a more remote review of the
8 slides, but I had seen them.
9 Q Okay. Did anyone from law enforcement,
10 FDLE, the state attorney, tell you, prior to the
11 interview, that they were concerned that you might be
12 compromising the investigation into the death of Lisa
13 McPherson by doing the interview?
14 A No.
15 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 3 so marked by the
16 reporter.)
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Let me show you what I've had marked as
19 Exhibit 3. Did you watch the show that aired?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And do you have a pretty good recollection,
22 of that which aired, of your comments from the
23 hour-and-fifteen-minute interview?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Well, let me review with you this
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1 transcript, which is Exhibit 3. And, you know, if you
2 have a problem with it, we have the tape here and we
3 can listen to it, but I believe the transcript, you
4 know, fairly accurately sets forth what you were asked
5 and what you said.
6 A From a quick look, that appears correct.
7 Q Okay. If you go to Page Number 4, if you
8 just -- here, let me see that just for a second.
9 A Uh-huh.
10 Q Right -- yeah, right here (indicating).
11 A Uh-huh.
12 Q You state, quote, "This is the most severe
13 case of dehydration I've ever seen." And that -- you
14 said something to that effect during the interview, is
15 that right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What public records did you base that
18 statement on?
19 A Laboratory tests of vitreous fluids.
20 Q Anything else?
21 A Appearance of her body.
22 Q That's from the photos?
23 A No. As I told you, I saw her body.
24 Q Any particular part? You mean the skin, is
25 that what you're talking about?
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1 A All of her body, the dried mucous
2 membranes, the consistency of her skin, the laboratory
3 values, considering particularly that this was a
4 previously healthy thirty-six-year-old female.
5 Q What public records exist that support this
6 conclusion that you stated on Inside Edition?
7 MS. ANDERSON: Asked and answered.
8 MR. WEINBERG: No, that's a different
9 question, Pat. I asked her what she based it on, but
10 I'm also asking her what, if anything, is in the
11 file, her public file, that supports that conclusion.
12 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q But the photographs as well, correct?
15 A The photographs aren't necessary.
16 Q I didn't ask you what's necessary. What
17 else exists as to what her body looks like today? What
18 exists in your file that would show us what that body
19 appeared like, other than the photographs?
20 A The entire description of the autopsy
21 protocol and the laboratory test results.
22 Q Right. But assuming that someone wanted to
23 test the validity of that description, one could look
24 at the photographs, is that right, and the lab results?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q Now, if you -- is there any reference
2 anywhere in your public files that this is the most
3 severe case of dehydration you've ever seen?
4 A No.
5 Q Is "dried mucous membranes" in the autopsy
6 report?
7 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; the autopsy report
8 speaks for itself.
9 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm asking you is, you
10 described the condition of her skin and the dried
11 mucous membranes. And the question is: Is that set
12 forth in the protocol?
13 THE WITNESS: Crusted brown dried material is
14 present within the mouth, on the lips.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Anywhere else, or is that it?
17 A Crusted blood within the nares.
18 Q The what?
19 A Crusted blood within the nares, crusted
20 brown dried material within the mouth, on the lips.
21 That's: Within the mouth, comma, on the lips,
22 semicolon, crusted, parentheses, dried, end
23 parentheses, material is present on the eyelids.
24 Q Okay. Now, did you discuss the conclusions
25 that you put on the first page of your autopsy report,
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1 as to severe dehydration and bed rest, with Doctor
2 Davis prior to issuing it?
3 A Not immediately prior to issuing it, but
4 prior to his leaving our office, yes.
5 Q Is there anything -- is there any document
6 in your file that was generated by Doctor Davis or
7 anyone other than you that would be -- that would
8 indicate some disagreement as to the cause of death,
9 the proximate cause of death?
10 A No.
11 Q Now, at the time that you gave this
12 interview on January, I think you said, 13th, 1997, had
13 the additional testing been done?
14 A No.
15 Q When was that testing done?
16 A I would have to look at the file.
17 Q I mean, the 13th wasn't that long ago. So
18 somewhere in the last month, is that what you're
19 saying?
20 A Yes. Probably within a week after that.
21 Q At the time you talked to the St. Pete
22 Times and the Tampa Tribune, following the Inside
23 Edition story, had this additional testing been done?
24 A No.
25 Q Is there a draft of the autopsy report and
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1 protocol in the file that is different from this final
2 Report of Autopsy?
3 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; asked and answered.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Just go ahead and answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I'd have to go back and review
6 the file, but not that I recall. The only thing that
7 would be different would be that Doctor Davis
8 probably did a provisional anatomic diagnoses, which
9 I then changed to final. Or he did a final and I
10 changed it to put it out under my signature,
11 whichever.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Did you change his protocol in any way?
14 A No. That is his wording.
15 Q Okay. If you go to -- further down on Page
16 4 -- strike that.
17 Was there an anatomy chart that was done by
18 either you or Doctor Davis with regard to the autopsy?
19 A He may have. I did not.
20 Q Is that in the file?
21 A It would be if he did one, yes.
22 Q Is there some sort of a questionnaire that
23 is done, or was done by Doctor Davis in this case, with
24 regard to the autopsy?
25 A I don't specifically recall. He sometimes
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1 did a kind of check-off list, and also an anatomic
2 diagram. I don't recall whether he did in this case or
3 not.
4 Q If he did, would it still be in the file?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Were all notes maintained in the file?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You don't have any policy of throwing stuff
9 away?
10 A No.
11 Q With regard to Doctor Davis' file, is there
12 anything in his personnel file that was withheld from
13 us in our Public Records Act Request?
14 A No.
15 Q Nothing that you assert any kind of
16 privilege as to?
17 A No.
18 Q If you go to right below, on Page 4 of
19 Exhibit 3, where you said, "This is the most severe
20 case of dehydration I've ever seen," the reporter says,
21 "Doctor Joan Wood, the Pinellas medical examiner, spoke
22 to us after we interviewed Mr. Abelson. Doctor Wood
23 says while dying of a blood clot is a natural cause,
24 what led up to it, Lisa's severe dehydration, was not."
25 Did you say that to him --
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1 A Yes.
2 Q -- during your interview?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you tell him during the interview with
5 him that you had concluded that she had died of
6 unnatural causes?
7 A Undetermined.
8 Q Well, I'm asking you "unnatural."
9 A I used the term "undetermined."
10 Q It goes on to say, "She says tests
11 performed during the autopsy indicate Lisa McPherson
12 went at least five days without liquids."
13 And then he asked you, "Five days you think
14 she went without liquids?"
15 And you said, "I think five to ten is
16 reasonable. It may have been seventeen."
17 Did you say that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What public records did you base that
20 statement on that she went five to ten, maybe
21 seventeen, without water?
22 MS. ANDERSON: Asked and answered.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead.
24 THE WITNESS: The laboratory test results.
25 BY MR. WEINBERG:
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1 Q You're talking about the vitreous fluids?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Any other public record that exists that
4 supports that conclusion?
5 A No.
6 Q And, you know, when I say "public record,"
7 I mean record in your file, setting aside any issue as
8 to exemption. Do you understand that?
9 A No.
10 Q Well, then I'm going to ask the questions
11 again. What I'm asking you is: Do you agree that your
12 files are public records?
13 A When they are not part of an active
14 criminal investigation, yes.
15 Q Well, they're public records, and then the
16 question is whether or not there's an exemption that
17 allows you to delay making them available, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. Now, with regard to the issue from
20 your statements as to severe dehydration and five to
21 ten days, up to seventeen without water, my question
22 is: What records from your file, putting aside any
23 exemption, did you base that statement on?
24 A The records you have.
25 Q The vitreous fluids?
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1 A Yes.
2 Q And what public records exist, what records
3 exist from your file that would support that
4 conclusion?
5 A Additional tests which corroborate it.
6 Q These are the ones that were done recently?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. If you go to Page 5, in the middle,
9 Mr. Meagher says, "You don't deteriorate the way Lisa
10 McPherson did in a day or two, do you?"
11 And you say, "No, absolutely not."
12 Did you say that?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q What public records, in other words,
15 records from your file, did you base that on or exist
16 that would support that statement?
17 A The autopsy protocol, the cause of death,
18 and all the laboratory tests that were performed.
19 Q And that would be tests beyond just the
20 vitreous fluids, is that right?
21 A The vitreous fluids in and of themselves
22 would answer that, but yes, in addition, additional
23 other tests.
24 Q What deterioration were you talking about?
25 A From normal to dead.
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1 Q Well, I mean, are you talking about weight,
2 are you talking about appearance? I mean, what do you
3 mean?
4 A I'm talking about from normal to death.
5 Q Well, I mean, I could die right now, right?
6 A But you wouldn't have Lisa McPherson's body
7 chemistries were you to die right this second, unless
8 you are a profoundly ill individual unconscious, and
9 I'm not sensing that, unless you're a better lawyer
10 than I thought you were.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, hopefully I'm better than
12 you think I am, but I'm not unconscious.
13 MS. ANDERSON: I don't sense any
14 unconciousness either, Sandy.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q But when you talk in terms of dehydration,
17 you're talking about -- I mean, in terms of
18 deterioration, you're talking about things like
19 dehydration?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Things like loss of body weight?
22 A Yes.
23 Q What other sorts of things are you talking
24 about?
25 A Aberrations of mental function from
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1 confusion to disorientation to loss of consciousness,
2 excessive thirst, low urine output, a craving for
3 liquids. She's got some significant bruises on her
4 that probably, probably came about from falling about.
5 Mr. Abelson says she was hitting the wall with her
6 fists. That's not exactly normal.
7 But we have a woman who has to go from
8 walking, talking, driving a vehicle, having a minor
9 motor vehicle accident, following which she's seen at a
10 hospital, examined and found to be physically fit, to
11 dead in seventeen days. And this doesn't happen, based
12 on the chemistries and the findings in her body, in the
13 one day before her death.
14 Q If you go to Page 6 of the -- of Exhibit 3,
15 toward the bottom, you say, "I spend some time in
16 court, as you can imagine --"
17 A You're not on six.
18 Q I just moved to six. In other words, I
19 told you to go to Page 6.
20 A I'm on six.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I see. I got it up here.
22 My copy is -- Page 8 of the exhibit.
23 MS. ANDERSON: What is it, eight?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
25 BY MR. WEINBERG:
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1 Q "I spend some time in court, as you can
2 imagine, and so I'm very careful with my wording, and
3 my wording would be this: From the time that Lisa
4 McPherson died, backward twenty-four to forty-eight
5 hours, she was unconcious."
6 The reporter, "Comatose unconscious?"
7 You, "Yes."
8 Is that what you said?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, what public records did you base that
11 on and what public records exist, in other words,
12 records in your file, to support that conclusion?
13 A Vitreous chemistries.
14 Q And were you being careful with your
15 wording there?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And why were you being careful with your
18 wording?
19 A The reporter had just said to me at that
20 point, having previously asked me how long I thought
21 Lisa had been unconscious, with my having given a reply
22 of twenty-four to forty-eight hours, a question along
23 the lines of, "So, for the forty-eight hours before
24 Lisa got to the hospital, she was unconscious?" And I
25 said, "I spend some time in court, as you can imagine,
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1 and so I am very careful with my wording, and my
2 wording would be this: From the time that Lisa
3 McPherson died, backward twenty-four to forty-eight
4 hours, she was unconscious."
5 Q And when you said "unconscious," you meant
6 comatose unconscious?
7 A There's no other definition.
8 Q Okay. So "unconscious," to a layman like
9 me, means that you are essentially what would amount to
10 being asleep; you're not responding to anything?
11 A Well, or staring at the ceiling with your
12 eyes wide open breathing heavily; unresponsive to
13 anyone passing a hand over your eyes, for instance.
14 Q Okay. If you go further down on that page,
15 the reporter says, "After she was pronounced dead,
16 Doctor Minkoff, the emergency room physician, who's
17 also a member of the church, drew blood from Lisa and
18 had it tested. The test results show a staph infection
19 which church officials say could explain Lisa's rapid
20 deterioration and her death."
21 And you say, "She did not die of an
22 overwhelming staph infection."
23 And he says, "Did a staph infection
24 contribute or cause the blood clot?"
25 And you say, "No, no."
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1 Is that what you said?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, what public records did you base that
4 statement on and what public records exist, in other
5 words, records from your file exist to support your
6 statement that the staph infection neither caused nor
7 contributed to the death of Lisa McPherson?
8 A She didn't have a catastrophic decline.
9 She didn't have a rapid deterioration. That's based
10 from the lab tests. And she has no nidus of infection
11 to have caused her to have a staph infection.
12 Q What do you mean, no rapid deterioration
13 based on the lab test? What's that mean?
14 A Well, if you've got someone who is a
15 specialist, they will explain to you that those
16 laboratory values are not consistent with someone who
17 crashed and died in twelve hours or twenty-four hours.
18 Q You're talking about the vitreous fluids?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And what is the nidus?
21 A Site.
22 Q Site of infection?
23 A (Nodding affirmatively.)
24 Q In other words, some organ that would
25 indicate an infection?
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1 A Right.
2 Q All right. Did -- during the autopsy, was
3 the heart opened up and looked into for infection, do
4 you know?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And is that in the autopsy report?
7 A The heart was examined, as every heart in
8 every autopsy we do is examined.
9 Q But does the autopsy report indicate that
10 the heart was examined for infection, do you know?
11 A We examined the heart. We look at sections
12 of the heart under the microscope. Infection of the
13 heart, of the valves of the heart is something visible
14 to the naked eye. Infection of the muscle, the heart
15 is visible under the microscope. Neither site showed
16 infection.
17 Q Do you continue to have sections from all
18 the organs?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And those are sections that could be looked
21 at by our experts?
22 A Yes --
23 Q Is there any --
24 A -- when the public records issue is
25 resolved.
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1 Q Right. Are there any organs, major organs
2 that were not sectioned and preserved?
3 A Maybe not pancreas. I'd have to go back
4 and look.
5 Q Would the autopsy report audit indicate
6 what was sectioned?
7 A No. We don't normally do that. We retain
8 sections of major organs: heart, lungs, kidneys,
9 brain, liver. I always take spleen. It just depends
10 upon the pathologist.
11 Q How about the intestines, the stomach?
12 A No. We don't retain or take sections of
13 those.
14 Q Now, you also -- right after that statement
15 I just read, Mr. Meagher says, "Doctor Wood says she
16 can't explain the cuts and bruises on Lisa's body.
17 They may have been from falls before she was comatose."
18 Now, you do recall talking to him about the
19 cuts and bruises?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q And what public records, what records did
22 you base your statements on, and what in the file
23 exists as to those cuts and bruises?
24 MS. ANDERSON: Which statements, Sandy?
25 MR. WEINBERG: The statement -- well, you
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1 weren't here, but she went through a long dialogue
2 about her recollection of what is outside this
3 transcript of what she talked to Mr. Meagher about.
4 What I'm asking you: With regard to your
5 conversation with Mr. Meagher about the cuts and
6 bruises, what records did you base your statements on
7 and what records exist as to document those cuts and
8 bruises in your file?
9 THE WITNESS: The written autopsy protocol,
10 the photographs, and some microscopic sections.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q And the microscopic sections still exist?
13 A Yes. And I think they're of various
14 injuries on the body. I didn't go back and catalog
15 them in my mind to specifically say exactly which skin
16 abnormalities were kept as tissue blocks, but there are
17 some.
18 Q Okay. Were there any tissue blocks done of
19 the so-called bites, insect bites?
20 A I believe so, yes.
21 Q And those still exist?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And are there photos that exist of the
24 so-called insect bites?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And those still exist?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Now, if you go to the next page, which
4 would be the last page, at the top of it there is a
5 statement from Mr. Abelson about insect bites, and then
6 you're quoted as saying, "No, they're not mosquito
7 bites. They appear to me to be cockroach bites."
8 And then you were asked, "How could Lisa
9 McPherson sit there and let cockroaches bite her while
10 she's laying in bed?"
11 The answer is, "If she's comatose it can
12 happen and she doesn't know it and doesn't react to
13 it."
14 Were you asked those things and are those
15 your statements?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What public records did you rely on in
18 making those statements, and what public records exist,
19 in other words, records from your file exist with
20 regard to what you have described as cockroach bites?
21 A Descriptions in the autopsy protocol, and
22 photographs.
23 Q What about the sections from the bites?
24 A I'm hesitant to be specific with regard to
25 the sections. I know there are sections of skin
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1 abnormalities. I believe at least one of those is of
2 one of these bite regions, but I didn't check those
3 before I came here today.
4 Q Does someone have to be comatose or dead in
5 order to be bit by a cockroach?
6 A No. There are well-documented cases of
7 infants and small children being bitten by cockroaches.
8 Q And is there a particular journal or
9 article that documents this?
10 A Well, I'm sure there's documentation in the
11 journals. I would suggest a forensic entomologist.
12 Q Was there any that you relied on in drawing
13 the conclusion, based on looking at the body and
14 looking at the photographs, that these were likely
15 cockroach bites?
16 A No. I have a forensic entomologist with
17 whom I work, but he is in Indiana and he's never seen
18 these photographs.
19 Q What's his name?
20 A Neil Haskell (phonetic).
21 Q And is he in some medical examiner office
22 or --
23 A No. He's a forensic entomologist who does
24 some -- I think some teaching at Michigan State, and is
25 on a doctoral fellowship for a fellow at the University
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1 of Florida, but who does forensic entomology.
2 Q Now, has he participated at all in the
3 autopsy?
4 A No.
5 Q Now, were you talking about premortem or
6 postmortem cockroach bites when you addressed this with
7 the Inside Edition?
8 A Premortem.
9 Q Now, following the Inside Edition
10 interview, you did do interviews with both the St. Pete
11 Times and the Tampa Tribune, is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And where did those interviews take place?
14 A One by telephone, Tampa Tribune; the other
15 in my library, St. Pete Times.
16 Q Well, let's take the St. Pete Times first.
17 Who was present for that interview?
18 A Tom Tobin and I.
19 Q Any other person?
20 A No.
21 Q Did you talk to Wayne Andrews, Mr. -- Agent
22 Strope or anybody from the State Attorney's Office
23 before doing the Tom Tobin interview?
24 A No.
25 Q So you didn't ask their permission?
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1 A No.
2 Q Did you get any reaction from Wayne Andrews
3 to your Inside Edition appearance after it aired?
4 A Not that I recall.
5 Q Did anybody from the state attorney or from
6 the Clearwater Police Department or FDLE instruct you,
7 after seeing those interviews, not to do any further
8 interviews?
9 A No.
10 Q Did there come a time when you quit doing
11 interviews with regard to this case?
12 A Yes.
13 Q When was that?
14 A After the interviews to the St. Pete Times
15 and the Tampa Tribune.
16 Q And why did you quit doing interviews?
17 A At the request of the State Attorney's
18 Office.
19 Q Who from the State Attorney's Office?
20 A Doug Crow.
21 Q And when did that request come
22 specifically, do you remember?
23 A The day after the -- or the day the Tribune
24 and Times articles aired.
25 Q Was this by phone or in person?
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1 A By phone.
2 Q And was there a letter that followed it up?
3 A No.
4 Q And what --
5 A Not that I've seen, anyway.
6 Q And did he give a reason why he didn't want
7 you to give any more interviews?
8 A My interpretation, just that further
9 publicity might have an adverse effect upon the
10 investigation.
11 Q And did he tell you that, or is that what
12 you --
13 A That's -- I don't remember his exact words.
14 Q Well, did you tell him that you were your
15 own independent person and that you thought that the
16 public had a right to know the truth about this? Did
17 you tell him that?
18 A No. I started the conversation by saying
19 that I was not planning to do any more interviews.
20 That was my statement to him when he called or I called
21 him back, whatever it was. I said, "I just wanted you
22 to know I do not plan to do any more interviews."
23 And my best recollection, he said, "Well,
24 good, because I think it might cause problems." I
25 don't know. Something like that.
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1 Q Okay. Did -- when you got the Public
2 Records Act Request from us -- do you recall getting
3 that request?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Who participated in the decision whether to
6 produce or not produce records?
7 A I did.
8 Q That was your decision?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Why did you not give us access to the
11 autopsy report?
12 A Error on my part.
13 Q What do you mean by that?
14 A It was simply an error on my part in
15 communicating to my staff. I can't remember the exact
16 words. It was just one of those cross-communications.
17 Q So you should have given us the autopsy
18 report?
19 A Yes. The autopsy report, as of October
20 30th, should have been given to you.
21 Q And why should it have been given to us as
22 of October 30th, 1996?
23 A Because it had been made public, and it was
24 that which was ready to be mailed to you when you filed
25 suit.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: If you would mark this as
2 exhibit -- the next exhibit, Exhibit 4.
3 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 4 so marked by the
4 reporter.)
5 MS. ANDERSON: Sandy, are you going to go much
6 further? Because Mr. Bedore is upstairs.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
8 MS. ANDERSON: I think you had him set for
9 3:30.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, we had him set
11 for whenever we got through with Doctor Wood, but --
12 THE WITNESS: Well, he's my ride, so it
13 doesn't make any difference.
14 MR. RAHDERT: How long do you want to go
15 today?
16 MR. WEINBERG: As long as you'll go.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, if you're anticipating
18 being -- I mean, I have a bad back. I just simply
19 can't sit for --
20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Well, why don't we
21 go until five, and then if we're not done, we'll
22 finish tommorrow.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 (Off the record discussion.)
25 BY MR. WEINBERG:
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1 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 4 as the Public
2 Records Request that we made?
3 A Yeah, I guess.
4 Q And then --
5 A You better ask Mr. Bedore.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me just show you
7 Exhibit 5. You can mark this.
8 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 5 so marked by the
9 reporter.)
10 BY MR. WEINBERG:
11 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 5 as your letter,
12 your response to me signed by you in response to my
13 January 9th request?
14 A Right.
15 Q And if you look at that, in your response
16 you say, "Regarding all materials relating to the case
17 of Lisa McPherson, including access to review and
18 reanalyze any physical specimens, you are welcome to
19 inspect or copy any of that material at a mutually
20 agreeable date on or after such time when the case is
21 no longer considered to be an active criminal
22 investigation."
23 That's what you said, right?
24 A Right.
25 Q And so at that time, you did not give us
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1 anything from your file other than the personnel file
2 of Doctor Davis, is that right?
3 A That's correct. And as I've indicated to
4 you, that was an error. And the second letter was
5 coming to you with a copy of the autopsy report.
6 Q All right. Now, this second letter, who
7 dictated -- when was this second letter dictated?
8 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; vague. What second
9 letter?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, you want to mark
11 this?
12 MS. ANDERSON: Which exhibit?
13 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, let the record
14 make very clear that I haven't received any second
15 letter.
16 And did you send me another letter?
17 THE WITNESS: No, because of the lawsuit.
18 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Well, let's mark
19 this as Exhibit 6.
20 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 6 so marked by the
21 reporter.)
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q That was handed to me by your attorney
24 today. That is a letter that you dictated but never
25 sent?
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1 A That is correct. And that was written on
2 Tuesday, January 28th. Pat had told us to hold --
3 MS. ANDERSON: Wait, wait, wait.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, excuse me. Okay. We were
5 going to wait and file the -- respond on Wednesday
6 the 29th. We were going to include a copy of the
7 autopsy report, but the lawsuit was filed.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Now, why were you going to send this
10 letter?
11 A May I see the letter again?
12 Q Yeah.
13 A Number one, to include the autopsy report;
14 and number two, to let you know that certain items you
15 were requesting fell within the purview of physical
16 evidence.
17 Q What do you mean by that?
18 A Vitreous fluid, blood, body tissues, the
19 toxicology specimens are physical evidence.
20 Q Okay. Where in here does it say you're
21 sending me the autopsy report? Could you tell me that?
22 A It doesn't, but I am telling you it was to
23 be included with it.
24 Q Well, there's nothing on here that has an
25 enclosure, right?
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1 A (Nodding affirmatively.)
2 Q Is that right?
3 A Yes. But we had clearly decided at that
4 point that you were entitled to the autopsy report. I
5 had spoken with my attorneys. It was to be taken care
6 of.
7 Q Is there any particular reason why, in the
8 answer that y'all filed, there's no indication that
9 you're going to turn over the autopsy report?
10 A It's the drafting of my attorney. I didn't
11 read it carefully.
12 Q Did you read it before it was filed?
13 A I'm sorry?
14 Q Did you read it before it was filed?
15 A Before what was filed?
16 Q Did you read the answer in the pleadings
17 that are contained in Exhibit 2 before they were filed?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So you approved them?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. WEINBERG: And let me show you the -- what
22 we'll have marked as the next exhibit, which is
23 seven.
24 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 7 so marked by the
25 reporter.)
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Do you recognize Exhibit 7 as a letter that
3 I sent to you on January 22nd, 1997?
4 A Yeah.
5 Q And did you review that letter?
6 A Yeah.
7 Q Did you discuss that letter with somebody
8 from the State Attorney's Office?
9 A No. Other than Marie King.
10 Q And what was the nature of that discussion?
11 A To let Marie know what the nature of my
12 very specific rules had been with regard to the media,
13 Inside Edition, St. Pete Times and Tampa Tribune.
14 Q Did anyone from the State Attorney's Office
15 instruct you or advise you not to release records
16 pursuant to our Public Records Act Request, which is
17 contained in Exhibit 4, my January 9th, 1997 letter?
18 A I got the same letter you did from them.
19 Q Well, do you interpret the letter the way I
20 do, that it didn't instruct you as to how to respond to
21 my request?
22 A That's the way I interpret it.
23 Q So the decision that you made with regard
24 to asserting a law enforcement exemption was your own
25 decision, not influenced by anything that was said to
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1 you by Wayne Andrews, Clearwater PD, FDLE, or the State
2 Attorney's Office, is that right?
3 A No. It was uninfluenced by anything said
4 to me by -- or written by the State Attorney's Office.
5 Q Did Wayne Andrews from the Clearwater
6 Police Department tell you not to turn over any files
7 to us?
8 A Wayne Andrews of the Clearwater Police
9 Department and Special Agent Lee Strope of the
10 Clearwater -- of the Florida Department of Law
11 Enforcement both told me this was an ongoing criminal
12 investigation with subpoenas to be cut.
13 Q Well, did they make a statement as to
14 whether or not you should or should not release public
15 records from your files regarding the autopsy?
16 A We seem to have a communication problem
17 here. You asked me what they said. I told you what
18 they said. They didn't tell me not to release it; they
19 didn't tell me to release it. They told me there was
20 an ongoing criminal investigation. I heard that both
21 from Sergeant Andrews and from Special Agent Strope.
22 Q But you had heard that almost a month
23 before when you released the autopsy report, correct?
24 A No, I did not hear that. You
25 misunderstand.
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1 Q Well, let's make it clear then. How long
2 after the autopsy report was issued did either Sergeant
3 Andrews or Agent Strope talk to you about there being
4 an ongoing criminal investigation?
5 A Neither spoke with me. Sergeant Andrews
6 spoke with Mr. Bedore.
7 Q How long after it was released --
8 A You'll have to ask Mr. Bedore. I don't
9 have the date.
10 Q Well, you are aware, are you not, that both
11 Sergeant Andrews and Wayne Shelor from the Clearwater
12 Police Department also have talked to the press with
13 regard to this so-called ongoing investigation,
14 correct?
15 A Yes. And it's not so-called; it's ongoing.
16 I'm involved in it.
17 Q All right.
18 A I believe it was around the first part of
19 December, but I can't give you a date. Mr. Bedore
20 perhaps can.
21 Q Do you recall that after that conversation
22 between Clearwater police and your department about
23 there being an ongoing investigation, more or less
24 probably at the beginning of December, do you recall
25 that after that time both Sergeant Andrews and Mr.
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1 Shelor from the Clearwater Police Department talked to
2 the press with regard to this investigation?
3 A I don't recall. It makes me no never mind.
4 MR. WEINBERG: And let me have marked as a --
5 this is -- oh, I see the way this is. Let me just
6 have this marked as a composite exhibit.
7 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 8 so marked by the
8 reporter.)
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Now, what I've shown you is a series of
11 articles that are marked as Exhibit 8. And without
12 belaboring the articles, I think if you look at them,
13 you'll see that throughout the articles, there are
14 quotations from the Clearwater Police Department. For
15 example, on the first article, which is the Tampa
16 Tribune article, which is the first article on this
17 December 15th, 1996, at the bottom of the first page,
18 the headline page --
19 A Wait, what's the headline?
20 Q Tampa Tribune, "Mystery Surrounds
21 Scientologist's Death."
22 A Okay.
23 Q At the bottom of the first page it says,
24 "An autopsy by the --" by your office, "showed
25 McPherson's five-foot-nine, one-hundred-and-eight-pound
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1 body was severely dehydrated. Her arms and legs were
2 bruised. Her skin was cracked and scaling. Her left
3 pulmonary artery was blocked by a fatal blood clot
4 brought on by dehydration and bed rest. The Clearwater
5 Police Department doesn't think she died of natural
6 causes said spokesman Wayne Shelor."
7 And then further down in the article,
8 Sergeant Andrews talks about witnesses and how he
9 thinks that one's in Switzerland and one's in Germany.
10 And then on the last page of the article, Larry Bedore
11 is quoted, from your office, as saying that he was
12 quote, "not aware of any blood tests being done or even
13 McPherson's blood being drawn at the hospital." That's
14 with regard to the staph infection. I take it he was
15 just incorrect when he said that?
16 A Well, he's the director of operations. I
17 mean, the fact that he doesn't know what's going on
18 within the inner workings of a given case isn't
19 surprising.
20 Q All right. Then if you go to the one, I
21 guess, that's on the front of yours, which is the St.
22 Pete Times for December 17th, 1996, again at the
23 beginning of it, the third paragraph, "Police point to
24 an autopsy by," your office, "which says," and it
25 describes the autopsy and describes your findings. And
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1 then at the bottom it again quotes Sergeant Andrews and
2 it goes on to some length about that.
3 And then if you go to the next document,
4 which is a Channel 8 news document, you'll see that
5 Wayne Shelor appeared on a newscast and is quoted in
6 the fifth paragraph there, "Wayne Shelor, Clearwater
7 investigators have worked closely with Pinellas-Pasco
8 Medical Examiner's Office and it is their belief that
9 Lisa McPherson did not die of natural causes."
10 And my question to you is: Did you
11 understand that to be that that was your belief or the
12 cops' belief?
13 A What?
14 Q Do you know what Wayne Shelor was talking
15 about?
16 MS. ANDERSON: Where are you, Sandy? I'm
17 confused.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I think Doctor Wood knows where
19 I am, the Channel 8 news.
20 THE WITNESS: Clearwater Police Department has
21 been told by us at this point in time that the death
22 of Lisa McPherson is wholely unexplained by the
23 information that's been provided to us thus far. Her
24 death is at this point undetermined, may well be
25 ruled a homicide, that she is -- this woman should
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1 not be dead and that an incredible amount of work
2 needs to be done to investigate this death.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q All right. If you go to the last document
5 in that exhibit, which is a transcript of a December
6 17th, 1996 WFLA show which Mr. Shelor, the police
7 person, appeared on, if you look at the second page of
8 it, Mr. Shelor says, quote, "Well, when she showed up
9 in another county, having been taken from Clearwater to
10 another county and she was pronounced dead on arrival,
11 there are certain methods and investigations that are
12 prompted because of the circumstances. This began as
13 an unattended death. The Pinellas-Pasco Medical
14 Examiner's Office determined a number of things which
15 conclude essentially that this young lady did not die
16 of natural causes."
17 And then he goes on in the next paragraph,
18 "Ah, one of the attorneys says that strep infection
19 caused it. The Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner's
20 Office is familiar with that and says no, that didn't
21 cause her death at all, that she died as a result of
22 pulmonary embolism brought on by severe dehydration as
23 a result of bed rest."
24 My question to you is: Did -- was there
25 any discussion with Mr. Shelor, Sergeant Andrews, or
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1 Mr. Strope as to an agreement or a strategy amongst
2 y'all to generate press starting in December 1996 with
3 regard to this ongoing investigation?
4 A No.
5 Q Now back to the St. Pete Times. Mr. Tobin
6 did an interview and he did it in the library of your
7 offices, is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How many sessions did you have with him?
10 A One.
11 Q And was -- I can't remember if you answered
12 this or not. I apologize, but was anybody else there
13 other than you?
14 A No, he and I.
15 Q So there was no other witness to the
16 interview?
17 A No.
18 Q Did he take notes?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you take notes?
21 A No.
22 Q What did he ask you and what did you say to
23 him?
24 A I have a great deal more difficulty
25 recalling that conversation than I do the one with Matt
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1 Meagher. His interview that was in the newspaper was
2 accurate. Beyond that, with any specificity, he asked
3 me if five to ten days was reasonable; I said it was
4 defensible.
5 I'm sorry, I just don't remember.
6 Q How long did the interview last
7 approximately?
8 A Thirty minutes maybe, maybe forty-five.
9 Q And when he called you up, what did he tell
10 you that he wanted to talk about?
11 A The death of Lisa McPherson.
12 Q Did he say that he had seen the Inside
13 Edition show?
14 A I don't recall.
15 Q And did you put any restrictions on the
16 interview?
17 A I told him to bring the autopsy report with
18 him. I wasn't going to give him a copy.
19 Q And why is that, since it was a public
20 record?
21 A Just abundance of caution. And that he
22 couldn't see any other records. And I don't -- I'm
23 very able to set restrictions as we go along in the
24 discussion, so --
25 Q Well, the one thing I really -- if you
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1 could explain to me, what -- why did you need an
2 abundance of caution as to whether or not to produce
3 what you say is a public record?
4 A Nothing more than that, abundance of
5 caution.
6 Q And when did the interview with him take
7 place, what day?
8 A What day did the newspaper article air?
9 Q It aired on the 23rd.
10 A The 22nd.
11 Q Well, that is two weeks after I made my
12 first -- I made my request for public documents,
13 correct? I made a request on January 9th, 1997, for
14 your records, right?
15 A Right.
16 Q And you sent me a response on January 10th,
17 right?
18 A Right.
19 Q And this interview didn't take place until
20 January 22nd?
21 A Right.
22 Q But you've said that you intended to
23 produce to me, and it was just an error, the autopsy
24 report, right?
25 A I have told you that included with the last
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1 communication to you would have been a copy of the
2 autopsy report, because we had looked more carefully at
3 the public records law and realized that we had in fact
4 made an error in not giving it to you sooner and you
5 were in fact entitled to it.
6 Q All right. So in other words, it was not
7 an inadvertance that caused you not to produce the
8 autopsy report to us pursuant to my January 9th
9 request?
10 A It was an error.
11 MS. ANDERSON: Mr. Weinberg, you said that the
12 Times story ran on the 22nd of January?
13 MR. WEINBERG: No, I said the 23rd. She said
14 she talked to him on the 22nd.
15 MS. ANDERSON: Well, the copy of the story
16 that you have provided as an exhibit shows a date of
17 December 17th.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I know, because we're talking
19 about a different story, Pat.
20 MS. ANDERSON: That you don't have a copy of?
21 MR. WEINBERG: I haven't shown her a copy of
22 it, but I think she understands that we're talking
23 about two different times and stories.
24 MS. ANDERSON: Well, I didn't.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, maybe you're not paying
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1 attention, but I think she does. She said that --
2 and she's made it clear that after the Inside Edition
3 story ran, she did interviews with the St. Pete Times
4 and the Tampa Tribune. The Inside Edition story did
5 not run until January of 1997. Those articles that
6 you're looking at are articles that were in 1996.
7 And I think we all understand that.
8 MS. ANDERSON: Uh-huh.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Do you understand that, Doctor
10 Wood?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MS. ANDERSON: How are you doing, Doctor Wood?
13 THE WITNESS: Fine. I need to take a break in
14 a minute, but --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, let's see if I can
16 get through these stories.
17 THE WITNESS: If we're going to go another
18 half hour, I better take a break now.
19 (Whereupon, a recess was taken from 4:26 to
20 4:40 p.m.)
21 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 9 so marked by the
22 reporter.)
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q I've put in front of you Exhibit 9, which
25 is a composite exhibit of the St. Pete Times January
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1 23rd, 1997 article and the Tampa Tribune January 23rd,
2 1997 article, and those are two articles that you are
3 quoted somewhat extensively. And if you go to the St.
4 Pete Times article, which is the second article, you're
5 quoted more extensively in that and that's what we're
6 talking about now.
7 Going back now to Tom Tobin, did he give
8 you a list of questions before he interviewed you?
9 A No.
10 Q And did he tape the interview?
11 A Tape?
12 Q Tape, you know, tape record the interview?
13 A No, not that I recall.
14 Q Did you refuse to answer any of his
15 questions?
16 A No.
17 Q Did he have any records with him?
18 A No, other than the autopsy report.
19 Q He had the hospital records with him?
20 A No.
21 Q Now, why did you do the interview with Tom
22 Tobin and the Tampa Tribune? Well, let me ask the
23 question a little bit differently.
24 In light of the fact that there was an
25 ongoing active criminal investigation, why did you do
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1 an interview with the two local newspapers in which you
2 discussed your autopsy findings and conclusions
3 regarding this case?
4 A Again, because I spoke for Lisa McPherson.
5 I felt the time had come for those circumstances, which
6 could be determined from her autopsy protocol, to be
7 made public in the hope that what had happened over the
8 last days of her life might be better explained.
9 Q And who is that for the benefit of?
10 A The general public.
11 Q Might it benefit the general public for
12 others outside your office to test the validity of your
13 scientific results that are set forth in your autopsy?
14 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; argumentative.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead.
16 THE WITNESS: The test results performed by my
17 office were done in a fully qualified laboratory with
18 appropriate quality control and with double testing
19 of abnormal results. There is no reason to think
20 that they are other than a correct reflection of the
21 state of Lisa McPherson. And in my opinion there is
22 no need for further testing of those specimens.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Well, do you agree that there may be some
25 expert out there that might well disagree with the
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1 conclusions that you reached from that scientific
2 evidence concerning the cause of death, the proximate
3 cause of death?
4 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; irrelevant,
5 immaterial.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Do you understand the question?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes. I am well aware that there
8 are experts for hire who will say black is white, if
9 paid adequate amounts to say so; however, reputable
10 individuals reviewing the findings in Lisa
11 McPherson's death will, in my opinion, arrive at the
12 same conclusions at which I arrived.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Well, given that, Doctor Wood, and given
15 the fact -- strike that.
16 You have -- the conclusions you've reached
17 are final, is that right?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Given the fact that you've reached these
20 final conclusions and that you've discussed them
21 publicly, is there a reason why you will not allow our
22 experts to look at the same scientific information to
23 determine whether or not they agree or disagree with
24 your conclusions?
25 A First of all, some of what you're asking
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1 for is covered under active criminal investigation.
2 Secondly, much of what your experts would need to form
3 an opinion is available to them within the autopsy
4 protocol that has already been provided to you.
5 Q Well, you say some is covered under active
6 criminal investigation. What isn't covered under
7 active criminal investigation?
8 A The autopsy protocol.
9 Q Well, you know, with all respect to your
10 office, do you understand why a responsible and
11 reputable expert would want to look at the autopsy
12 photos, autopsy slides, and autopsy sections before
13 rendering a responsible opinion as to the cause of her
14 death?
15 A As to the cause of her death, no.
16 Q Excuse me?
17 A As to the cause of her death, no.
18 Q Well, would the release of -- to the public
19 of the lab results, the photos, the slides, and the
20 other materials, you know, that are referred to in the
21 autopsy protocol in any way compromise the ongoing
22 investigation?
23 A Absolutely.
24 Q How?
25 A They compromise the ongoing investigation
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1 because there are multiple individuals who have never
2 been interviewed who cared for Lisa whose descriptions
3 of her condition at various times are of extreme
4 importance to us, and the dissemination of the autopsy
5 photographs showing her condition at the time of death
6 could interfere with that search for the truth.
7 Q Well, what about the release of the
8 vitreous fluids test data, would that in any way -- in
9 light of the fact that you've already made a final
10 conclusion, would that compromise the ongoing
11 investigation in any way?
12 A First of all, you have the test data.
13 Q No. I have what your report says the test
14 data is. I do not have a lab report. I do not have
15 anything in writing from an independent lab which sets
16 forth what happened and what the data shows. I also
17 don't have the vitreous fluids that I might want to
18 test.
19 A Well, there probably aren't any, because
20 there's such a small amount from each eye that there's
21 probably no more for testing. I have no problem
22 letting you know that that is a reputable laboratory
23 that falls under state guidelines and does its tests
24 under the kinds of appropriate controls that any person
25 would want those tests to be performed under. And at
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1 this point in time, quite frankly, that should be
2 adequate for you.
3 Q Well, let's just say for the moment that
4 it's not. My question is: Can you explain to me and
5 the court how the release of the underlying information
6 with regard to the vitreous fluid test, which you've
7 already analyzed and you've already drawn your final
8 conclusion of, can in any way compromise the
9 investigation?
10 A It seems --
11 MS. ANDERSON: I'm going to object on the
12 grounds that this has been asked and answered.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, believe me it hasn't been
14 answered and it hasn't been asked. If you do the
15 research, this is the vital question that determines
16 whether or not there is a valid law enforcement
17 exemption.
18 MS. ANDERSON: Well, of course you're dealing
19 with forensic evidence here.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I don't care what I'm dealing
21 with, Pat.
22 MS. ANDERSON: To the extent that you can
23 articulate why it is that your office doesn't deal
24 out forensic evidence before a charge is filed, do
25 it.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that isn't my question.
2 My question is: Explain how the release of
3 specifically the data that relates to the vitreous
4 fluids, in light of the fact you've already reached
5 -- you've already had them tested and you've already
6 reached a final conclusion, could in any way
7 compromise the investigation?
8 THE WITNESS: I feel at a disadvantage in
9 giving this answer, not being an attorney, but I can
10 tell you that even if I were to waive active criminal
11 investigation and provide to you a laboratory slip,
12 you would have one more piece of paper that says
13 exactly what the piece of paper you've got from us
14 already says, and it gets you no farther along a path
15 of anything.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q But, you know, that's my problem. Your
18 problem is is that you're a public official who has
19 spoken publicly about an autopsy --
20 A Which is my right to do.
21 Q Let me finish. I didn't say you didn't
22 have the right -- who has released an autopsy report,
23 who has gone on national tabloid television and talked
24 about all your conclusions from it. And my question
25 is: Given that, given those actions by your office,
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1 how is it that you are claiming an exemption as to
2 things like what is in your file concerning vitreous
3 fluids, what is in your file concerning slides?
4 A Because what I am telling you, and have
5 told you repeatedly today, if you deal with any
6 forensic expert with a modicum of forensic experience,
7 all that individual needs is this autopsy protocol. He
8 does not need to know the laboratory who did the test.
9 He does not need to know what is -- more than what is
10 contained upon these pages to reach those conclusions.
11 Now, you could tell me that you want
12 ballistics testings done on this case, despite the fact
13 that there's no bullet wound here --
14 Q Every --
15 A -- but I am telling you that any forensic
16 pathologist worth his salt in the United States today
17 can look at this autopsy protocol with these laboratory
18 values and accepting that these laboratory values, upon
19 my guarantee, are being run in a laboratory that meets
20 all criteria of acceptable clinical laboratory in this
21 country, can reach the conclusions I have reached.
22 Q And I'm telling you that we are talking to
23 the most eminent experts in this area of medicine and
24 forensic pathology in the country, and every one of
25 them has told us just the opposite, that no responsible
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1 forensic pathologist would base on the autopsy report,
2 without looking at the underlying slides, without
3 looking at the underlying samples, without looking at
4 the photos, without looking at the various other
5 materials from the scientific autopsy that was done,
6 reach any final conclusions, that it would be
7 irresponsible to do that. So that's what they're
8 telling us.
9 So what I'm asking you is: As a person
10 that you've said many times looking for the truth, why
11 not make available to our experts, under your
12 supervision and control, slides, lab data, you know,
13 sections, so that they can do their own examination,
14 you know, and test that against your conclusions that
15 you've already publicly discussed and are in your
16 autopsy report? Why not allow that, if you want to get
17 at the truth?
18 MS. ANDERSON: I will object to that on the
19 grounds that it is argumentative.
20 MR. WEINBERG: It's not meant to be
21 argumentative, Pat. It's a question.
22 MS. ANDERSON: It's kind of a long run-on
23 question.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, can you answer that
25 question, ma'am?
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1 THE WITNESS: First of all, the questions
2 regarding the degree of deprivation of fluids and the
3 chronicity of the dehydration in this case are easily
4 answered by individuals without need for a great deal
5 more information. Down the road sometime, when there
6 is a -- if there is a criminal arrest in this case,
7 then the individuals such as you are naming have
8 every right to review all of those materials in an
9 attempt to determine whether we have been correct or
10 incorrect in our diagnoses, but in my opinion, not at
11 this stage of the situation.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q And my question is: Can you look me in the
14 eye and tell me that the release of the underlying data
15 with regard to the vitreous fluids and the slides and
16 the sections to our experts would in any way compromise
17 an ongoing criminal investigation?
18 MS. ANDERSON: Asked and answered.
19 MR. WEINBERG: No, it hasn't been answered.
20 MS. ANDERSON: And argumentative.
21 MR. WEINBERG: It's not argumentative.
22 Can you answer that question, please, Doctor
23 Wood?
24 THE WITNESS: It is asked and answered.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, will you answer the
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1 question, please?
2 THE WITNESS: First of all, as I told you, the
3 vitreous may not be available. It may have been used
4 up.
5 Second of all, we would have to have a special
6 master assigned. We would have to set up very
7 special circumstances under which the viewing of
8 these tissues could be -- could take place. There is
9 no way that I could allow the splitting of specimens
10 from my office to go elsewhere other than in the
11 presence of a special master.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understood that, and
13 that's what we want to do. We want to do it the way
14 that you want to do it.
15 THE WITNESS: And I don't understand why. No
16 one has been accused of anything at this point.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but see, that's not the
18 issue in a public records request. The issue is is
19 whether your files are public and there is a valid
20 law enforcement exemption.
21 THE WITNESS: And --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Let me finish. And as to those
23 portions of the file for which there is no legitimate
24 argument that can be made, that it would -- it would
25 interfere or compromise an ongoing investigation, our
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1 position is there is no law enforcement exemptions.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q And so what I'm asking you is, as you look
4 at me and we go through this deposition, is there --
5 can you -- are you saying that the release of the data
6 from slides, you know, sections, vitreous fluids, all
7 the underlying data in your file, that that release,
8 under whatever terms you want to release it to us,
9 could in any way compromise the investigation, when
10 you've already examined them, released an autopsy
11 report and spoken about them publicly?
12 A I see them as under the umbrella of an
13 active criminal investigation and I am not willing to
14 waive that.
15 Q That's not my question. My question is --
16 A Well, you can ask your question a million
17 ways. What I'm telling you is, you have the autopsy
18 report. Anything else that's in my possession, until I
19 am told otherwise, is part of an active criminal
20 investigation and I will not surrender that to anyone
21 until so ordered by a judge in competent jurisdiction.
22 Q So it doesn't really -- so as far as you're
23 concerned, it doesn't matter whether or not the release
24 would or would not compromise an investigation; as long
25 as there's an investigation, you're not going to
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1 release until ordered by a judge, is that right?
2 A My understanding is that information which
3 is under active criminal investigation does not come to
4 me to make a judgment as to whether I think this piece
5 might or might not hamper the investigation. It has
6 simply to do with the fact that there is a blanket
7 statement that it is part of an active criminal
8 investigation.
9 Q Right. And you can just say that without
10 any review by anybody?
11 A I am saying that as the medical examiner
12 for this circuit, in concert with -- not in concert
13 with, but in consultation with the Clearwater Police
14 Department and the Florida Department of Law
15 Enforcement.
16 Q All right. Now, can you articulate how, if
17 at all, the release, under the circumstances that you
18 dictate, to our experts of the lab tests, slides and
19 the sections, could or would compromise this ongoing
20 investigation? Can you articulate any way that it
21 could?
22 MS. ANDERSON: By "our," you mean the Church
23 of Scientology?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Anybody. I mean, you know, it
25 doesn't matter who the member of the public is. To
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1 the public.
2 MS. ANDERSON: Regardless of the ultimate
3 impact on the defendant, if there is ever going to be
4 a defendant?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what difference does it
6 make? That doesn't have any difference as far as the
7 public records are concerned, Pat.
8 Could you read that question back, please?
9 (The requested portion of the record was read
10 back by the reporter.)
11 THE WITNESS: (Conferring with counsel.)
12 Having no knowledge as to whom these materials
13 might be made available were I to release them, and
14 having no knowledge as to the integrity, ability,
15 expertise of the individual, I can imagine any result
16 coming from an independent review, that review might
17 mirror mine and might be one hundred eighty degrees
18 opposite, and that might be through expertise or for
19 some other reason; and therefore, I think that the
20 potential is that the criminal investigation could
21 suffer grave harm.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Because somebody might disagree with you?
24 A Not because someone might, who is an
25 expert, genuinely disagree with me, but because some
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1 people are of greater integrity than others.
2 Q Well, that assumes yourself as well, right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Now, do you believe that the
5 Church of Scientology is not a legitimate church?
6 A I don't know anything about the Church of
7 Scientology.
8 Q Well, take a look at your answer. Do you
9 have that in front of you? And particularly, go to
10 actually the motion. Here, if I can just come over
11 there for a second.
12 You filed a motion for a judgment on the
13 pleadings. And if you refer to Paragraph 5 of that
14 motion, you say in the motion, "The filing of this
15 lawsuit is a blatant attempt on the part of the Church
16 of Scientology to abort a legitimate criminal
17 investigation into the circumstances of Lisa
18 McPherson's death while under the church's care in the
19 final days of her life. Doctor Wood is under no
20 obligation to cooperate with such an attempt by the
21 so-called church," and you have "church" in quotes.
22 Now, does that -- by that, do you mean that
23 you don't believe, you, the medical examiner of
24 Pasco-Pinellas, you don't believe that the Church of
25 Scientology is a legitimate church by putting it in
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1 quotes or by saying "so-called church"?
2 A They are called a church. I don't know
3 what that means.
4 Q Well, what did you mean when you authorized
5 your lawyer to call it a "so-called church" in quotes?
6 A I just explained to you, they are called a
7 church. I don't know what that means. They are not
8 the episcopal church, the catholic church, the
9 Presbyterian church. I know they call themselves a
10 church. I don't know what they believe in. I don't
11 know if they're a church or not. So "so-called
12 church," perhaps they are.
13 Q Well, would it bother you if somebody
14 referred to your religion as a so-called church in
15 quotes as a public official?
16 MS. ANDERSON: Objection; that has nothing to
17 do in connection with the case.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, it has everything to do
19 with it, her bias, Pat, because it may well be that
20 Doctor Wood has taken the position that she's taken
21 because she's biased and she dislikes --
22 THE WITNESS: -- you know --
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- let the record reflect --
24 THE WITNESS: -- we are about --
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- that Doctor Wood is standing
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1 up and screaming at me now.
2 THE WITNESS: I am not screaming at you.
3 MS. ANDERSON: That is not true, Mr. Weinberg.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, she --
5 THE WITNESS: Mr. Weinberg, I am a member --
6 MR. WEINBERG: She's standing up, is that
7 true?
8 MS. ANDERSON: She stood up.
9 THE WITNESS: I am very angered at you, yes.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Why?
11 THE WITNESS: I am a member of the Episcopal
12 Church.
13 MR. WEINNERG: And I'm a member of the
14 Unitarian Church.
15 THE WITNESS: It has been a church in this
16 country for many, many years, and in England before
17 it.
18 If the Church of Scientology wishes to become
19 a church as of 1950, and espouse Godly views or those
20 views which are held by large numbers of people, then
21 that's fine. If they don't believe in God, that's
22 fine. If they believe in God on Mars, that's fine.
23 I take offense at your suggestion and your
24 words that I would be biased against any
25 organization, be they Scientology, Moslem, Buddhist,
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1 Jewish, or whatever. I don't care.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q Well, then, Doctor Wood, why did you file a
4 pleading in which you referred to the Church of
5 Scientology as a so-called, quote, "church," unquote?
6 Why did you do that if you were so fair and unbiased as
7 to the Church of Scientology?
8 A I've not seen anything that proves that
9 they are a church.
10 Q Well, do you think the fact that the IRS
11 has determined that they're a tax exempt religious
12 organization, would that indicate to you that they
13 might be a church?
14 MS. ANDERSON: Objection.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Or that there are eight and a
16 half million people in the world that are
17 Scientologists? But more importantly, what does it
18 have to do with the Public Records Act Request that
19 this organization made? What does whether or not
20 they're a church have anything to do with that? What
21 does it have to do with it?
22 THE WITNESS: It has to do with the fact that
23 they are the entity, whatever they may be, that is
24 seeking the records. And that's all, from my point
25 of view.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Why did you put in quotes, "church"? Does
3 that suggest that you don't think that they are
4 legitimate?
5 A I don't know that they are. Maybe they
6 are.
7 Q And what difference does it make to you as
8 a public official, who has an obligation to produce
9 public documents, as to whether or not you think that
10 they are or not a church? What difference does it
11 make?
12 A It makes absolutely no difference to me
13 whether they are a church or not a church. The
14 difference it makes to me as an individual who spends
15 her life attempting to deal with truth and who knows
16 that Lisa McPherson should not be dead, that an
17 organization has systematically blocked our attempt to
18 talk to those individuals who cared for her, to those
19 individuals who knew what was happening to her for
20 those last seventeen days of her life, who have told to
21 the police, who have related to me, stories of what was
22 going on with Lisa that are impossible based on her
23 medical files.
24 Q For example?
25 A That she was talking that day and making a
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1 choice to go to HCA New Port Richey, when I know that
2 with a sodium of a hundred and eighty, she couldn't
3 possibly have had that conversation.
4 Q What else?
5 A When their --
6 MS. ANDERSON: Excuse me. That question is
7 meaningless.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that objection is
9 meaningless. What kind of objection is that?
10 MS. ANDERSON: Well, that question has no
11 factual predicate. It is vague. It is not
12 answerable.
13 MR. WEINBERG: What we're doing is talking
14 about what I perceive as some deep -- and not to
15 offend you, Doctor Wood, but what I perceive,
16 representing the Church of Scientology, as some very
17 deep bias that I think plays -- has played a
18 significant role in her decision whether or not to
19 produce public documents. And what you were
20 describing to me is an animus that you apparently
21 have with regard to the church.
22 MS. ANDERSON: Objection.
23 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no.
24 MS. ANDERSON: Objection.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what is it then? You
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1 just said that they have blocked every attempt by you
2 to do interviews. What were you talking about?
3 MS. ANDERSON: That question you can answer.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay. If this was Smith Nursing
5 Home in Largo and I had the death of a patient there
6 and I couldn't get any cooperation from anyone in
7 that nursing home, I couldn't get factual statements
8 that the body of the deceased told me were events
9 that had to have been happening, if I perceived that
10 everyone who should be able to give us good
11 information to allow us to put together a picture of
12 the last few days of Mrs. X's life was either not
13 telling us the truth, not talking to us, giving us
14 information that was totally unfitting the
15 circumstances, who fled the country rather than to
16 speak to us --
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Fled the country?
19 A Well, I believe that some of the people in
20 this case are gone, are they not?
21 Q Well, "fled the country" has a connotation
22 to it, like they intentionally left to avoid getting
23 interviewed by law enforcement officers.
24 A I --
25 Q Is that what you're suggesting?
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1 A No. I'm saying they are no longer in the
2 United States or they're no longer available for us to
3 interview, and so we are left with this mish-mash of
4 information. And what we have been given is
5 information in total contradistinction to what Mrs. X's
6 body tells us --
7 Q Tells you?
8 A Tells us in my office -- then I have a
9 problem with Smith Nursing Home in Largo.
10 Q All right.
11 A I have absolutely no different problem in
12 this circumstance with the Church of Scientology than I
13 have with Smith Nursing Home. All I want is the truth.
14 Give me the people who cared for her, tell me what
15 happened to her, tell me how she acted, and I'm
16 finished.
17 Q And if they say something that you don't
18 think is -- that doesn't fit with the conclusions that
19 you've drawn, then your conclusion is that they're
20 lying to you?
21 A Well, let me put it to you this way: If I
22 tell you that the woman sitting next to you --
23 Q Laura.
24 A -- has just suffered a gunshot wound that
25 went through both halves of her brain and I ask you how
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1 she's doing, and you say, "Well, I heard a noise, but
2 following that she was sitting there for ten, fifteen,
3 twenty minutes, we had a perfectly rational
4 conversation, she seemed to be fine, she got up, she
5 walked out the door, she didn't have any trail of blood
6 behind her, went out to the street and walked down the
7 street," and yet the bullet is in that wall and there's
8 a pile of blood on the chair, pool of blood on that
9 chair, don't you think I'm going to wonder if you told
10 me the truth or not?
11 Q The same way that I will wonder, until our
12 experts have an opportunity to look at your work, and
13 it may be good, it may not be good, as to whether --
14 because I don't know you from a hole in the ground,
15 Doctor Wood -- whether or not what you were doing --
16 what you have concluded is correct or incorrect. And
17 what we are also -- I am also, as a lawyer who
18 represents a client, attempting to get at the truth,
19 all right?
20 A And who's your client?
21 Q My client is the Church of Scientology.
22 A Who hasn't been charged with anything.
23 Q Well, you've just, in essence, accused
24 them.
25 A (Gesturing.)
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1 Q Look, Doctor Wood, I'm not stupid. By
2 sitting here and giving the statement you just made,
3 there is no other explanation, based on what you say,
4 for all of this to have happened, other than something
5 bad, because that's what you've just said.
6 A Something bad did happen, but I don't know
7 who's responsible.
8 Q Let's not be disingenuous.
9 A I am not being disingenuous.
10 Q With all due respect, the suggestion that
11 your public statements did not --
12 A Excuse me, this just ceased.
13 (The witness left the deposition room.)
14 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think you can do that.
15 What time do you want to start tomorrow
16 morning? You want to do it at 10:00?
17 MS. ANDERSON: That's fine. On the record I
18 want to give you a copy of the autopsy report.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Can you just mark this as what
20 she just gave me. Mark this as the next exhibit. It
21 would be ten.
22 (Whereupon, Exhibit Number 10 so marked by the
23 reporter.)
24 (Whereupon, the deposition was adjouned at
25 5:15 p.m.)
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1 S T I P U L A T I O N
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
2 It was stipulated and agreed by and between
3 respective counsel present and the witness that reading
4 and signing of the deposition by the witness is not
5 waived.
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1 SIGNATURE PAGE/ERRATA SHEET
2
3 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR
____ ____ ______________________________
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I have read the foregoing pages and,
17 except for any corrections or
amendments I have indicated above,
18 my testimony reads as given in the
foregoing transcript.
19
20 _________________________________
(Signature of Deponent)
21
_________________________________
22 (Date)
23 _________________________________
(WITNESS TO SIGNATURE)
24
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA :
4 COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH :
5
I, Thea J. Nichols, Court Reporter and Notary
6 Public in and for the State of Florida at Large:
7
DO HEREBY CERTIFY that I reported in shorthand
8 the foregoing proceedings at the time and place therein
designated; that my shorthand notes were thereafter
9 reduced to typewriting under my supervision; and the
foregoing pages, numbered 4 through ~, are a true and
10 correct, verbatim record of the aforesaid proceedings.
11
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
12 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties,
nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel,
13 or financially interested in the foregoing action.
14
WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL THIS, THE 11th DAY OF
15 February, 1997, IN THE CITY OF TAMPA, COUNTY OF
HILLSBOROUGH, STATE OF FLORIDA.
16
17
18
19
________________________
20
THEA J. NICHOLS,
21 Court Reporter,
Notary Public, State of
22 Florida at Large.
23 My Commission Expires:
October 6, 1997
24
25
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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY, FLORIDA
2
3
4
5 ______________________________/
CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY
6 FLAG SERVICE ORG., INC.,
7 Plaintiff, Case No. 97-688-CI-07
8 vs.
9 JOAN E. WOOD, M.D., MEDICAL
EXAMINER DISTRICT SIX
10 PINELLAS/PASCO COUNTY
MEDICAL EXAMINER'S OFFICE,
11
Defendants.
12 ______________________________/
13
DAY TWO
14 (pages 147 - 200)
15
CONTINUED
16 DEPOSITION OF: JOAN E. WOOD, M.D.
17 TAKEN: Pursuant to Notice by
Counsel for the
18 Plaintiff
19 DATE: February 11, 1997
20 TIME: 10:10 a.m. - 11:15 a.m.
21 LOCATION: Rahdert, Anderson, McGowan
& Steele, P.A.
22 535 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida
23
BEFORE: Jill M. Giles-Saenz
24 Court Reporter
Notary Public
25 State of Florida at Large.
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1 APPEARANCES
2
On Behalf of the Plaintiff, Church of Scientology Flag
3 Service Org., Inc.:
4 MORRIS WEINBERG, JR., ESQUIRE
and
5 LAURA L. VAUGHN, ESQUIRE
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER, TAYLOR & EVANS
6 401 East Jackson Street
Suite 2525
7 Tampa, Florida 33602
8 LEE FUGATE, ESQUIRE
108 Icot Center
9 13630 - 58th Street North
Clearwater, Florida 34720-3437
10
11 On Behalf of the Defendants, Joan E. Wood, M.D., Medical
Examiner District Six Pinellas/Pasco County Medical
12 Examiner's Office:
13 PATRICIA FIELDS ANDERSON, ESQUIRE
RAHDERT, ANDERSON MCGOWAN
14 & STEELE, P.A.
535 Central Avenue
15 St. Petersburg, Florida 33701
16
Also Present:
17
ED PARKIN
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 I N D E X
2 Page
3 Direct Examination by Mr. Weinberg 150
Stipulations 197
4 Certificate of Reporter 198
Read and Sign Page 199
5 Errata Sheet 200
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 The deposition of JOAN E. WOOD, M.D., Day
3 Two, taken pursuant to Notice by Counsel for Plaintiff,
4 Church of Scientology Flag Service Org., Inc., at 535
5 Central Avenue, St. Petersburg, Florida, February 11,
6 1997, beginning at 10:10 a.m., before Jill M. Giles-
7 Saenz, Court Reporter, Notary Public, State of Florida
8 at Large.
9 Thereupon,
10 JOAN E. WOOD, M.D.,
11 having previously been duly sworn to speak the truth, the
12 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and
13 testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q This is a continuation of your deposition and
17 you're still under oath, Dr. Wood.
18 Yesterday -- I'll show you Exhibit 9. (Tendering
19 documents.) It's the "St. Pete Times" and "The Tampa
20 Tribune" articles of January 1997. And we had talked to you
21 about your conversation with Tom Tobin. Now I want to go
22 over the article with you and ask you a few questions about
23 it.
24 Specifically, if you go to the first paragraph of
25 the "St. Pete Times" article on January 23rd, Exhibit 9, it
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1 says, "Laboratory tests indicate that a 36-year-old member
2 of the Church of Scientology went without fluids for five to
3 10 days and was unconscious for up to two days before her
4 unexplained death in 1995. Those conclusions by Joan Wood,"
5 and then it goes on.
6 My question to you, Dr. Wood, is: What public
7 records did you base those conclusions on?
8 A The autopsy results.
9 Q The autopsy results? Are you talking about the
10 vitreous fluid lab data?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And what public records exist in the file to
13 support that conclusion?
14 A Laboratory tests.
15 Q If you go further on in the article, the bottom of
16 the third column, it begins, "However, Wood said Wednesday
17 that McPherson's health declined slowly over several days
18 and was far from sudden. She said it's `impossible' that a
19 staph infection led to McPherson's death."
20 Now, with regard to the statement -- first of all,
21 did you make that statement that her health declined slowly
22 over several days and was far from sudden?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And did you make the statement that it's
25 impossible, quote, unquote, that a staph infection led to
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1 McPherson's death?
2 A My recollection is I said that the laboratory
3 tests do not -- do not indicate that she died of a staph
4 infection.
5 Q So you don't remember using the word "impossible"
6 even though it's put in quotes there?
7 A No, I don't.
8 Q What public records did you base the conclusion
9 that her health declined slowly over several days and was
10 far from sudden?
11 A Laboratory test results.
12 Q Which results were those?
13 A Same ones.
14 Q The vitreous fluids?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Any others?
17 A No.
18 Q What public records exist to support that
19 conclusion that her health declined slowly over several days
20 and was far from sudden?
21 A Autopsy results with laboratory studies.
22 Q Any laboratory studies outside of vitreous fluids?
23 A There are additional laboratory tests of urine
24 which are in support of that. But the vitreous fluids allow
25 the conclusion and don't require the additional tests.
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1 Q The additional laboratory tests of urine, are
2 those referred to specifically in the autopsy protocol that
3 is Exhibit 1?
4 A No. They are part of an active criminal
5 investigation.
6 Q I couldn't hear what you just said.
7 A No. They are part of an active criminal
8 investigation.
9 Q When were those tests done?
10 A Relatively recently.
11 Q Well, this article is relatively recently. When
12 specifically were the tests done?
13 A I couldn't tell you without looking at the file.
14 Q Would the file indicate whether they were done
15 before or after January 23rd, 1997?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And do you know as you sit here whether they were
18 done before or after January 23rd, 1997?
19 A No.
20 Q Is that the additional testing that you were
21 referring to yesterday?
22 A I believe so, yes.
23 Q I may have misunderstood what you said yesterday.
24 Let me ask the question: Was there additional testing of
25 the vitreous fluids recently?
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1 A No.
2 Q If you go back to that article, the fourth column,
3 the last -- the second -- well, the first full paragraph,
4 the article says, "The lab results, quote, are consistent
5 with a chronic process and inconsistent with an event such
6 as a bloodstream infection that occurred within a period of
7 hours, Wood said. She wasn't fine one day and dead the
8 next." Did you say that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now, what lab results specifically were you
11 referring to that indicated -- that are quote, consistent
12 with the chronic process and inconsistent with an event such
13 as a bloodstream infection?
14 A They are not consistent of -- with their
15 diagnostic of a chronic process, and they are those
16 chemistries about which we already spoke.
17 Q Which ones are those specifically?
18 A Vitreous.
19 Q Does this include the urine test as well?
20 A If it had, I would have said urine and vitreous.
21 My answer was vitreous.
22 Q Now, it goes on to say in the next paragraph,
23 "Wood also concluded that McPherson had been bitten by ants
24 or roaches." Did you say that?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And what public records did you base that
2 statement on?
3 A The photographs, understanding of course that I
4 saw her body while it was there for the autopsy.
5 Q Did you also base that statement on any of the
6 specimens done from the areas of the skin?
7 A No.
8 Q Going back to the paragraph before, you told me
9 what you based the statement on, that it was a chronic
10 process inconsistent with a bloodstream infection. But I
11 also asked you: What public records exist in your file that
12 would support that conclusion?
13 A Laboratory results that are reflected in the
14 autopsy protocol.
15 Q Which is the same that you relied on in making
16 that statement?
17 A Yes.
18 Q If you go to the next page, the second column,
19 fourth paragraph, it says, "But Wood said there are
20 documented cases in which" -- I think it means "there have
21 been" -- oh, "they have," that means roaches -- "have bitten
22 humans who are dead or unconscious." Did you make that
23 statement?
24 MS. ANDERSON: Where are you?
25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Are you at the
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1 bottom of the column that starts, "Liar. Liar. Liar.
2 Liar. Liar. Hateful liar. That's what she is"? Is
3 that the column to which you're referring?
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q Yeah. And what I said was the fourth paragraph.
6 And my question is: Where it says, "Wood said
7 there are documented cases in which they" -- and by "they"
8 it means roaches -- "have bitten humans who are dead or
9 unconscious," did you make that statement or a statement
10 like that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And what did you base that statement on?
13 A Conversation with Neil Haskell.
14 Q This is the fellow that you referred to yesterday
15 from either Indiana or Illinois?
16 A Illinois.
17 Q Illinois. Okay.
18 Are there any notes with regard to that
19 conversation in the file?
20 A No.
21 Q Is there any memo with regard to that conversation
22 in that file?
23 A No.
24 Q Is there materials Dr. Haskell sent you or Mr.
25 Haskell sent you with regard to roaches or roach bites?
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1 A It is Dr. Haskell. No.
2 Q Is there any research in the file with regard to
3 roaches or roach bites?
4 A No.
5 Q Now, it goes on in the next paragraph, "Wood said
6 she reached her conclusions about McPherson after seeing
7 test results on McPherson's eye fluids, which can accurately
8 reflect a body's condition before death." Did you make that
9 statement?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Now, what records did you base that statement on?
12 A Laboratory test results.
13 Q Talking about the vitreous fluid results?
14 A That's the fluid of the eye, yes.
15 Q It goes on to say that, "The readings on one test
16 are, quote, so high she had to be unconscious for 24 to 48
17 hours, Wood said." Did you make that statement?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Which tests are you referring to? Here's the
20 autopsy see report. (Tendering documents.) Which test?
21 There is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven vitreous
22 tests.
23 (Witness and Counsel conferring.)
24 Dr. Wood?
25 MS. ANDERSON: Sandy, I think that you're
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1 trying to get at her opinion.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Look, she went onto a local
3 newspaper, the one you represent, and told the reporter
4 that she based her conclusions that the woman was dead
5 for -- or comatose for 24 to 48 hours based on the
6 readings of a particular test, which I assume she
7 identified to him.
8 THE WITNESS: I did not identify it to him.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Well, which test are you talking about? You
11 talked about it publicly.
12 MS. ANDERSON: How does that relate to a --
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- it's a public record. What
14 are you talking about? The test is right -- I assume
15 that the test is referred to somewhere in here, and we
16 want the test.
17 MS. ANDERSON: You've got the test results.
18 MR. WEINBERG: No, we don't. No. What we
19 have is what your -- is what Dr. Wood's office has put
20 on this sheet. But I don't have the test. I don't
21 have the lab results. I don't have any of that stuff.
22 What I've got is a sheet of paper that has
23 something that your office has typed on it, but I don't
24 have the test protocol that has come back from the lab.
25 I don't have that. What I've got is something that --
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1 MS. ANDERSON: -- what you have are lab
2 values right there on the autopsy.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have what came back
4 from the lab.
5 THE WITNESS: What comes back from the lab --
6 MR. WEINBERG: -- is that --
7 THE WITNESS: -- is numbers.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q Well, and I would like to see what comes back from
10 the lab, Dr. Wood, with all due respect to you and your
11 office. I have a right to see that.
12 And I'm asking you what the test was. I mean,
13 which one is it? Is it the vitreous urea nitrogen? Is that
14 the one you're talking about?
15 MS. ANDERSON: I'm going to object. This is
16 way beyond the scope of anything that could be remotely
17 relevant.
18 MR. WEINBERG: This is probably the most
19 relevant thing that we have talked about throughout the
20 deposition. She goes in the newspaper and talks about
21 her tests and talks about her conclusions, and now she
22 wants to hide behind some law enforcement exemption.
23 I have a right to talk to her about what
24 she -- she said. She's the one that made the
25 statement, "The public had a right to know," and that's
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1 why she did these articles.
2 And so she talks about a test, and now you're
3 telling me that the test is exempt and you're
4 instructing her not to answer? Based on what?
5 MS. ANDERSON: I'm not instructing her not to
6 answer. What I'm telling you is --
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- oh, well, fine. State your
8 objection, and let's go on.
9 MS. ANDERSON: My objection is that what you
10 are attempting to do is not seek information related to
11 records as your lawsuit claims. You're wanting to get
12 inside her head on opinions.
13 MR. WEINBERG: And I'm telling you that
14 you're wrong. But you've stated your objection.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Now, please answer my question. What test are you
17 referring to? What's the basis of that statement? Which
18 test?
19 (Witness conferring with Counsel.)
20 A I'm not answering the question.
21 Q Based on what? Your attorney has not instructed
22 you not to answer. Why are you not answering it?
23 A I'm not answering because you have the laboratory
24 test results in front of you. You're attempting to get me
25 to explain to you by subverting the jus -- the discovery
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1 process.
2 Q And what's wrong -- and what's going to happen if
3 you tell us what test you were discussing with the "St. Pete
4 Times" to be published to hundreds of thousands of people in
5 the Tampa Bay area? What is going to happen if you tell us
6 now what test you were referring to?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q So what's your problem with that?
9 A My problem is that you're attempting to get my
10 entire opinion regarding each and every fact that is a
11 physical finding of Lisa McPherson, and this has nothing to
12 do with a public records request.
13 Q Well, I mean, first of all, you already said that
14 you'd stated all your conclusions as to this, what you
15 talked about in the paper.
16 But secondly, all I want to do is find out what
17 you were talking to the press about, what document -- what
18 specific document you were relying on when you told the
19 reporter that a particular test, singular, a particular test
20 was so high that she had to be unconscious for 24 to 48
21 hours. Which particular test? I have a right. That's a
22 document. What is it?
23 A I'm not sure that that's a correct statement from
24 the attorney. And the answer is the vitreous fluid test.
25 Q From the attorney?
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1 A Oh, I'm sorry. From the reporter. And the answer
2 is the vitreous fluid results.
3 Q That's the document then, the vitreous fluid
4 results?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And then it goes on, "And, in terms of eye
7 fluid results, it is the, quote, worst case of dehydration
8 I've ever seen, said Wood, who has been Pinellas-Pasco
9 medical examiner for nearly 15 years." Did you say that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And I take it that the public records in your file
12 that support that statement is the vitreous fluid results?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, in the last column there is a -- at the top
15 of the page it says, "Abelson cited language in the report
16 stating McPherson was of average nutritional status. But
17 Wood said that only means she wasn't abnormally thin." Is
18 that what you said?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And were you referring to the description in the
21 protocol where it talks about average nutritional status?
22 Is that what you were referring to?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And when you said that that means she wasn't
25 abnormally thin, what did you mean by that?
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1 A She wasn't abnormally thin.
2 Q You mean she -- there wasn't a malnutrition case;
3 is that what you're talking about?
4 A She was not anorexic. She was not cachectic. She
5 was not abnormally thin.
6 Q Okay. It goes on to say that, "Abelson cited a
7 passage stating there were 15 cubic centimeters of urine in
8 her bladder. But Wood said that's only three teaspoons and
9 that a person in the throes of dehydration can still produce
10 urine." Did you say that or words to that effect?
11 A Not that part about Mr. Abelson. Yes, the
12 "Wood" -- "but Wood said." Yes.
13 Q What public records did you base that statement
14 on?
15 A The autopsy protocol.
16 Q Now, the three teaspoons of urine, is that the
17 urine that you referred to a few minutes ago that was
18 tested?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is there any left for us to test?
21 A No.
22 Q And was that testing done sometime after you did
23 the "Inside Edition" story?
24 A No, not -- not the bulk of the testing. The
25 bulk of the testing had already been performed in our drug
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1 chem -- in our drug -- our toxicology laboratory. There was
2 approximately one-fifth of a teaspoon remaining, and it was
3 that one-fifth of a teaspoon which I had sent for additional
4 tests that I felt were relevant.
5 Q And that one-fifth of a teaspoon additional test
6 was done after the "Inside Edition" story?
7 A I believe it was in the works at that time, but
8 I'm not certain of that.
9 Q Does your file indicate when that one-fifth of a
10 teaspoon was sent for testing?
11 A It would, yes.
12 Q What in the file would indicate that?
13 A The tracking of the sending out of the specimen
14 from our office.
15 Q Does the autopsy protocol talk about urine
16 testing?
17 A Testing? Yes.
18 Q Well, whatever -- you said that some testing
19 had been done by your lab prior to you sending the last
20 one-fifth of a teaspoon. So that's the drug screen testing?
21 (Indicating.)
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you consult with the state attorney's office
24 to advise them that the retesting or additional testing that
25 you were doing would exhaust the sample?
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1 A No.
2 Q Was that retesting done after our Public Records
3 Act request was made on January 9th, 1997?
4 A I believe it may have been done after your
5 request, yes.
6 Q Well, let me refer you to your letter to me which
7 is Exhibit 5 in response to my request. And you said as to
8 our request to preserve specimens for testing, that until
9 that time -- that is, until the time your file is open --
10 that, quote, we will preserve any and all materials related
11 to the case.
12 Now, can you explain why you exhausted a urine
13 sample after sending a letter to us on January 10th
14 following our request that you preserve all samples for our
15 testing purposes?
16 A First of all, your letter was a request.
17 Second of all, in speaking with a medical
18 colleague, he suggested one additional test of great
19 importance, and I made the decision to go forth testing that
20 one-fifth teaspoon of urine because the possibility existed
21 that the individuals caring for her might have been
22 vindicated had the test results come back different from the
23 way they did.
24 Q Vindicated how?
25 A By showing a different condition.
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1 Q By showing renal failure or no renal failure? I
2 mean, what can you -- I mean, what are you talking about?
3 MS. ANDERSON: No. We're not going to do
4 this. You're now into --
5 MR. WEINBERG: -- no, no. Pat, what has
6 happened here is that Dr. Wood, after she told us that
7 she was going to preserve the samples, has exhausted
8 completely the urine sample.
9 MS. ANDERSON: What right do you have to test
10 these specimens any more than I do or the Cult
11 Awareness Network, for example?
12 MR. WEINBERG: All I can say, Pat, is --
13 MS. ANDERSON: -- you're a member of the
14 public.
15 MR. WEINBERG: First of all --
16 MS. ANDERSON: -- there is nothing that
17 distinguishes the Church of Scientology in regard to
18 these specimens, Sandy.
19 MR. WEINBERG: No. Except that Dr. Wood sent
20 me a letter, which is Exhibit 5, saying as a public
21 official we will preserve any and all materials related
22 to the case after we made a request that they be
23 preserved so --
24 MS. ANDERSON: -- and she did one more test
25 and used up this speck of urine. Big deal.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: That's -- big deal?
2 MS. ANDERSON: Yeah, big deal.
3 MR. WEINBERG: She said it was something that
4 might vindicate my client. It sounds like it was a
5 pretty big deal. Now, how do I know -- how do I know
6 that she did the test right?
7 MS. ANDERSON: Your client is not even a
8 suspect.
9 MR. WEINBERG: And that is one of the most
10 disingenuous things I've ever heard.
11 MS. ANDERSON: Watch what you say.
12 MR. WEINBERG: It is.
13 MS. ANDERSON: Watch your mouth.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. Watch what you say,
15 Pat, because the fact of the matter is we've been told
16 by any number of law enforcement people that that is
17 the case.
18 MS. ANDERSON: Let's suppose --
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- and you know that.
20 MS. ANDERSON: -- let's suppose --
21 MR. WEINBERG: -- that's how your client
22 newspaper --
23 THE REPORTER: -- I can't take both of you at
24 the same time --
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- your client newspaper, the
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1 "St. Pete Times" has reported this.
2 But let's go back to the question. And I
3 know Dr. Wood -- and I don't want to have a debate with
4 you, Pat. Let's go back to the question.
5 MS. ANDERSON: We're going to terminate this
6 deposition if you don't just get off this.
7 MR. WEINBERG: No, we're not going to
8 terminate this deposition. You're the one that started
9 it by talking about cults. Where do you come off
10 talking about that?
11 MS. ANDERSON: What I am going to do --
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- where do you come off
13 filing a paper talking about my client as a so-called,
14 quote, church, unquote? Where do you come off doing
15 that? That's irresponsible, and it's not professional
16 and you know it. If I called your religion --
17 MS. ANDERSON: -- I'm going to terminate this
18 deposition, Sandy, if you don't stop it.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to get back to the
20 questions.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q Now, Dr. Wood, if you go to the Tribune
23 article -- turn to the Tribune article there, please.
24 A (Complying.)
25 Q Now, did you talk to a Tribune reporter over the
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1 phone?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Which reporter was it?
4 A Cheryl Waldrip.
5 Q And did she tell you what she wanted to talk to
6 you about?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What did she say?
9 A I don't recall exactly.
10 Q Well, how long was the interview?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q Approximately.
13 A I don't recall.
14 Q Well, was it more than a minute?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And did you put any restrictions on the interview?
17 A I didn't have any restrictions going in. I'm
18 perfectly capable of saying I will or won't answer any given
19 question.
20 Q Was it before or after you met with Tom Tobin in
21 your office?
22 A If memory serves me, it was before.
23 Q Was anybody on the phone with you?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you make any notes of the interview?
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1 A No.
2 Q Was a tape made of the interview?
3 A Not by me.
4 Q Did you refuse to answer any questions in the
5 interview?
6 A Not that I can recall.
7 Q Did you -- were you referring to any records
8 during the interview?
9 A No.
10 Q Did the reporter refer to any records during the
11 interview?
12 A Not that I recall.
13 Q Did you get permission to do the interview with
14 anyone from law enforcement?
15 A No.
16 Q Did anyone from law enforcement tell you not to do
17 the interview?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you discuss the interview before it happened
20 with anyone from law enforcement?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you discuss the interview after it happened
23 with anyone from law enforcement?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Who?
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1 A I believe Lee Strope, Wayne Andrews and Doug Crow.
2 Q What did the police -- was Strope and Andrews
3 together or separate when you talked to them?
4 MS. ANDERSON: This is completely
5 irrelevant, what conversation she had with law
6 enforcement about this newspaper interview. Let's
7 get onto some records-related question.
8 MR. WEINBERG: It is a records-related
9 question.
10 MS. ANDERSON: No, it isn't.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure it is.
12 MS. ANDERSON: No. You're just trying to get
13 inside the controversy of this criminal investigation.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not, Pat.
15 MS. ANDERSON: Yeah, you are.
16 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm trying to find out
17 is why your client talked to the press about her
18 conclusions, and whether or not law enforcement
19 indicated in any way that there was any problem with
20 that because that's what the standard is that we're
21 operating under.
22 MS. ANDERSON: And what difference does that
23 make?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe you ought to read the
25 cases.
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1 MS. ANDERSON: Maybe I wrote the cases.
2 Maybe I wrote a lot of the cases.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, and then maybe you
4 shouldn't be taking the position that you're taking.
5 But unless you can demonstrate that in some
6 way these documents are interfering with a criminal
7 investigation, they've got to be released, particularly
8 after she's talked about it publicly and talked to the
9 police about her talking about it publicly. And you
10 ought to know that.
11 MS. ANDERSON: Move on.
12 MR. WEINBERG: And you ought to know that --
13 MS. ANDERSON: -- move on --
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- as the "St. Pete Times"
15 lawyer.
16 MS. ANDERSON: Move on. Let's go.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me?
18 MS. ANDERSON: Let's get onto something else.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you had an objection.
20 MS. ANDERSON: Yes.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, my question is on the
22 table.
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q Did you -- what did you talk to Agent Strope about
25 concerning the article?
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1 A I don't recall a specific conversation.
2 Q Did he tell you that you shouldn't have done it?
3 Did he tell you that?
4 MS. ANDERSON: Objection.
5 MR. WEINBERG: What's your objection to that?
6 MS. ANDERSON: My objection is that this is a
7 fishing expedition that is not designed or calculated
8 to lead to admissible evidence.
9 MR. WEINBERG: It's not a fishing expedition.
10 Are you instructing her not to answer or not?
11 MS. ANDERSON: No, I'm not instructing her
12 not to answer.
13 BY MR. WEINBERG:
14 Q Then go ahead, Dr. Wood.
15 A I don't recall the conversation.
16 Q Okay. If you go to "The Tampa Tribune" (sic)
17 article, paragraphs one and two, the -- it says, "Laboratory
18 tests indicate that a 36-year-old member of the Church of
19 Scientology went without fluids for five to 10 days and was
20 unconscious for up to two days before her unexplained death
21 in 1995. Those conclusions by Joan Wood, the medical
22 examiner," and it says, "are at odds." I take it that you
23 made those statements or statements like that; is that
24 right?
25 A Yes.
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1 Q And that those statements were based on the
2 autopsy protocol and the lab results that we've been talking
3 about; is that right?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Further on in the article -- well, actually in the
6 article it says, "Joan Wood said it's possible McPherson,
7 who died in December '95, had nothing to drink throughout
8 her 17-day stay at the Fort Harrison Hotel." Again, you
9 made that statement, and those statement -- and that
10 statement was based on the autopsy protocol and the lab
11 results from the vitreous fluids; is that right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then it goes on to say in "The Tampa Tribune"
14 article, "Wood said Wednesday the insect bites found on
15 McPherson's body after her death were most likely from
16 cockroaches." In addition, said she was comatose for 24 to
17 48 hours of her life. Again, you made those statements; is
18 that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And again, they were based on the autopsy
21 protocol, the vitreous fluids, and as to the cockroach
22 bites, the photographs; is that right?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Then on the second page, third column, it says,
25 "Wood said the infection, quote, absolutely did not, end
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1 quote, cause the bruising and was not responsible for
2 McPherson's death." Now, what -- did you make that
3 statement?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And did you base that statement, as to "absolutely
6 did not cause the bruising and was not responsible for her
7 death," on the autopsy protocol, the photographs and the
8 slides of the skin?
9 A The photographs of the body; the slides of the
10 skin; the overall appearance of the body; the -- my medical
11 training and experience; my knowledge of infectious disease;
12 my knowledge of the types of bleeding caused by septic
13 emboli; my knowledge of Waterhouse-Friderichsen syndrome; my
14 knowledge as to the cause, in fact, of her death; all of
15 those.
16 Q Did it also -- was it also based on slides of the
17 various organs?
18 A Yes, but to a lesser degree.
19 Q And then finally, in the last sentence of the
20 article, it says that you said that McPherson could not have
21 carried on a conversation with anyone that day. Did you
22 make that statement or something like it?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what was -- what public record was that based
25 on?
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1 A Laboratory test results.
2 Q Okay. Now, Dr. Wood, your office made public the
3 autopsy report; correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q In your interviews on "Inside Edition," with "The
6 Tampa Tribune" and the "St. Pete Times," you discussed in
7 some detail your conclusions as medical examiner regarding
8 the cause of Lisa McPherson's death; correct?
9 A I wouldn't say "in some detail," but yes.
10 Q Well, do you have any other opinion as to the --
11 strike that.
12 Do you have any other proximate reason for the
13 cause of death other than what has been set forth in the
14 report of autopsy and discussed by you with the media?
15 A Neither the proximate or the immediate.
16 Q Excuse me?
17 A Neither the proximate or the immediate.
18 Q Is there anything else in your file to indicate a
19 different cause of death other than what is indicated here;
20 that is, thromboembolus-left main pulmonary artery due to
21 thrombosis of left popliteal vein due to bed rest and severe
22 dehydration?
23 A No.
24 Q You have -- am I correct that you've already
25 stated publicly that the staph infection pointed out to you
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1 by Dr. Minkoff did not contribute to or cause the death?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q You have commented publicly on your interpretation
4 of autopsy photos as well as your own observations regarding
5 the appearance of Lisa McPherson including the cockroach
6 bites; is that right?
7 A Could you repeat that question, please?
8 THE REPORTER: Sure.
9 (The aforementioned question was read by the reporter.)
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. WEINBERG:
12 Q You have discussed publicly lab results from the
13 autopsy including the vitreous fluid results; correct?
14 A Perhaps the BUN and creatinine. No others.
15 Q Those were part of the vitreous fluid results?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Given what you have discussed publicly, given what
18 you have disclosed publicly by releasing the autopsy report,
19 can you tell us what is left in your file that you have not
20 commented on?
21 A The hospital record --
22 MS. ANDERSON: -- wait just a moment. To the
23 extent you can answer that question without revealing
24 the existence of investigative material, do so.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Various tracking records
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1 within the office; photographs; police interviews;
2 investigative notes; records of telephone calls;
3 microscopic slides; microscopic tissue blocks; tissue
4 cups; remaining body fluids.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q Excuse me. What did you say?
7 A Tissue cups; remaining body fluids; requests for
8 copies of the autopsy; if I didn't say it already, hospital
9 records; EMS run sheets; tracking sheets from within the
10 laboratory with regard to toxicology; tracking sheets within
11 the laboratory with regard to the work-up of the body for
12 autopsy; release forms for the funeral home; tracking
13 records indicating the transmission of the body to us from
14 another facility. That's everything I can think of at the
15 moment. It may not be everything.
16 Q Now, the hospital records were something that you
17 discussed with the media?
18 MS. ANDERSON: Is that a question?
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Correct?
21 A I discussed hospital records with the media when
22 they brought copies provided to them by the family.
23 Q And the copies they had was what you had; wasn't
24 it?
25 A I didn't compare them.
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1 Q Did you look at what Mr. Meagher from "Inside
2 Edition" had?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And did he have -- did it appear that he had a set
5 from New Port Richey and a set from Morton Plant Hospital?
6 A That's what it appeared to be, yes.
7 Q Now, can you -- as to the -- as to microscopic
8 slides, microscopic tissue blocks, tissue cups, remaining
9 body fluids, paraffin blocks, those types of items, evidence
10 of organs, can you tell us how the disclosure of those types
11 of items to us under circumstances -- to our experts under
12 circumstances controlled by you, that are satisfactory with
13 you and the state attorney and the Clearwater Police
14 Department, could in any way impede or interfere with an
15 ongoing investigation?
16 MS. ANDERSON: That requires a legal
17 conclusion on her part, and she is not competent to
18 make that judgment.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but your papers say that
20 she's the one that did make the judgment, Pat, as to
21 there being a valid law enforcement exemption and --
22 MS. ANDERSON: -- your client has no
23 standing. These are not even records, these specimens
24 aren't. So forget it.
25 MR. WEINBERG: We have no standing?
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1 MS. ANDERSON: Right.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I have as much standing as you
3 do and any other person walking out on the street.
4 MS. ANDERSON: Yes, exactly, which is no
5 standing. Until there's a defendant --
6 MR. WEINBERG: -- so is that your position as
7 a lawyer, that a member of the public has no standing
8 to make a request for a public record?
9 MS. ANDERSON: These are not records.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, yes, they are. Mr. -- Dr.
11 Wood has already acknowledged that they're records.
12 MS. ANDERSON: They're not records. The
13 specimen are not records.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, they are, Pat.
15 MS. ANDERSON: You have standing to request
16 the records, yes.
17 MR. WEINBERG: They are records, and she's
18 already acknowledged that they're records. She's
19 already acknowledged that at the end of the process
20 that we can have access to everything in her file,
21 including these specimens. She's already said that in
22 the record.
23 MS. ANDERSON: How does that translate into
24 acknowledging that they're records? They're not
25 records. They can't be copied.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: That's your position then?
2 MS. ANDERSON: Yeah, that's my position.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe you ought to read some
4 of the cases because they are records.
5 MS. ANDERSON: You know, you better stop
6 being personally insulting.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not -- you're the one
8 being personally insulting. I'm not being -- first of
9 all, you're the one that's pointing a finger at me.
10 MS. ANDERSON: I don't know you from Adam.
11 But, you know, I had heard that you were a good lawyer.
12 I did not expect insults during this deposition.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I expected -- to tell
14 you the truth about it, I expected when I walked in
15 yesterday to be greeted in a nice manner by folks, and
16 you didn't even say hello to me and neither did George
17 and neither did Dr. Wood.
18 MS. ANDERSON: Now that is a lie.
19 MR. WEINBERG: It is not a lie, Pat, 'cause
20 you didn't.
21 MS. ANDERSON: As I recall, I shook your
22 hand, Sandy.
23 MR. WEINBERG: You didn't -- you wouldn't
24 even look at me, and I don't know why.
25 Look, you know, I represent somebody and it's
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1 my job, you know. And you may not like the clients
2 that I represent, but it shouldn't be personal between
3 me and you.
4 MS. ANDERSON: Exactly. And so --
5 MR. WEINBERG: -- that's exactly right.
6 MS. ANDERSON: And so why are you being
7 personally insulting? Why are you doing that?
8 MR. WEINBERG: But that's what you're doing.
9 You know, why did you call my client a "so-called
10 `church'" in a pleading?
11 MS. ANDERSON: Is this America? Are we
12 entitled to have our own opinions?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Can I get back to the
14 question?
15 Could you read my question back? Because it
16 was a proper question. It is what this case is about.
17 And Dr. Wood, I believe, should be able to answer that.
18 It has nothing to do with a legal conclusion. Either
19 it's her belief or it's not her belief.
20 Could you read that question back for her?
21 THE REPORTER: Yeah.
22 (The aforementioned question was read by the reporter.)
23 THE WITNESS: I am not an attorney. I do not
24 have the ability to make that judgment.
25 And second of all, I would not turn over
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1 those types of scientific evidence to anyone in the
2 absence of a lawsuit, meaning that someone has been
3 charged with a crime or there is some civil litigation
4 ongoing.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG
6 Q Do you consider a Public Records Act lawsuit a
7 lawsuit?
8 A No. I said someone charged or a civil litigation
9 related to a death ongoing.
10 Q And where in the Public Records Act does it say
11 that? Does it draw that distinction between -- as you
12 understand it, since you are the records custodian, and I
13 believe you said earlier that you were the one that made the
14 decision or your office did as to what to release and what
15 not to release, can you tell me where it is in the Public
16 Records Act that draws that distinction?
17 A Well, first of all, there are two things. There's
18 number one, active criminal investigation; and number two,
19 my responsibility under the law with regard to being the
20 custodian of records.
21 Q All right. But the active criminal investigation
22 did not prevent you from releasing the autopsy report or
23 talking to the press about your conclusions; is that right?
24 A You are misstating. I did not realize that there
25 was an active criminal investigation at the time I released
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1 it. Had I realized that, I would not have allowed the
2 copies to be released from my office.
3 And my decision to speak with the media regarding
4 the findings of the -- regarding the death in a limited
5 fashion does not change the public records law in the state
6 of Florida.
7 Q In your opinion?
8 A In the opinion of multiple attorneys with whom
9 I've spoken.
10 Q Now, at the time that you made the public
11 statements on "Inside Edition," "Tampa Tribune" and the "St.
12 Pete Times," did you know that there was an active criminal
13 investigation?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now, who in your office, if anyone, examined the
16 file following our Public Records Act request to determine
17 whether anything in the file should be turned over?
18 A I did.
19 Q What did you -- what parts of the file did you
20 examine?
21 A The file.
22 Q Did you make any attempt to excise out non-exempt
23 material from the file?
24 A There was nothing in that file that I viewed, not
25 being an attorney, as non-exempt.
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1 Q And of course, at that time, that included the
2 autopsy report as well; is that right?
3 A No. As I told you, that -- well, at that moment
4 it did, yes, because I was laboring under a
5 misunderstanding.
6 MS. ANDERSON: Sandy, we're going to have to
7 check with the state attorney's office about her
8 scheduling.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I've probably got about ten
10 minutes and I'm done.
11 MS. ANDERSON: Okay.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Now, in this law -- in the response to the lawsuit
14 that was filed by you, you attached interrogatory questions
15 to the Church of Scientology asking to identify the name and
16 last known whereabouts of all persons known by you to have
17 provided care to Lisa McPherson the last seventeen days;
18 identify the last known whereabouts, type of medical degree
19 or training and any state of licensure for all health care
20 professionals known by you to have provided care for Lisa
21 McPherson; and then indicate by name and last known
22 whereabouts the individuals who were with Lisa McPherson
23 during the last forty-eight hours of her life.
24 Why did you serve those interrogatories on the
25 Church of Scientology?
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1 MS. ANDERSON: Why?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Why? Yeah, why.
3 MS. ANDERSON: Answer that if you can.
4 THE WITNESS: Because I need that information
5 to go forward to make a determination in this case.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q Now, do you think -- have you ever served
8 interrogatories on a member of the public that made a Public
9 Records Act request?
10 A I never had anyone make a Public Records Act
11 request in which there was a lawsuit.
12 Q You mean you've always turned over the records
13 when they made a request?
14 A It's always been resolved in some fashion other
15 than a lawsuit.
16 Q Well, in this case, do you acknowledge that I
17 wrote two letters to your office seeking the records and
18 articulating in some detail what I wanted and the
19 circumstances under which I wanted them?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Okay. And is there any particular reason why
22 after both of those letters somebody didn't just call me up
23 and say, "Well, at a minimum I'm going to give you the
24 autopsy report, which I've already been talking to the press
25 about"? Is there any particular reason about that?
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1 A No. As I told you, to be included with the
2 letter -- which was shortstopped by your filing of the
3 lawsuit -- was going to be a copy of the autopsy report.
4 Q Now, in my second letter I told you exactly when I
5 was going to file the lawsuit; didn't I?
6 A You put me under an arbitrary time frame of your
7 making, yes.
8 Q Now, can you explain what bearing those questions
9 have on whether or not you have an obligation to turn over
10 public records in a public records request?
11 MS. ANDERSON: Well, now, you're going to be
12 getting into attorney/client work product. And at
13 that, I have to object to and instruct her not to
14 answer that. The answer to that question is going to
15 reveal conversations I have had with her.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, maybe you can
17 tell me what the relevance of this is and why this
18 isn't harassment. I mean, when --
19 MS. ANDERSON: -- harassment?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, harassment. Has the
21 "St. Pete Times" ever been served with interrogatories
22 when they made a Public Records Act request?
23 MS. ANDERSON: Of course. Of course.
24 MR. WEINBERG: And what's the relevance
25 of interrogatories as to whether or not a public
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1 official -- what difference does it make? I could
2 be Joe, the garbageman, and make the same request.
3 What difference does it make whether -- in anything
4 about the person making a Public Records Act request?
5 MS. ANDERSON: Well, for example, let's
6 suppose that you assert waiver as a legal theory in
7 your papers.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Uh-huh.
9 MS. ANDERSON: Let's suppose that some of
10 the individuals whose name appears -- who will appear
11 in answer to those interrogatories, we'll have
12 information of theirs on that waiver issue.
13 MR. WEINBERG: How? It's her obligation.
14 It's not my obligation. It's her records. They're not
15 my records. I can't waive her exemption.
16 MS. ANDERSON: No. You're missing my point.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I've missed your point
18 because you're totally irrelevant. You're completely
19 irrelevant.
20 And really, you know, any -- if it gets to
21 the point where a citizen is bombarded by a public
22 official with discovery in order to make a Public
23 Records Act request, you know, that flies in the face
24 of what the Public Records Act is all about.
25 MS. ANDERSON: Do you think a Public Records
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1 Act plaintiff is immune from discovery? Is that your
2 position?
3 MR. WEINBERG: I think a public -- yeah, I
4 do. Discovery like this, absolutely. It's totally
5 irrelevant, completely irrelevant.
6 MS. ANDERSON: Interesting theory.
7 MR. WEINBERG: It's -- if you can explain to
8 me how it's relevant --
9 MS. ANDERSON: -- listen, we need to call the
10 state's attorney because we do have this trial cooking.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Do you think that they
12 would -- are they going to call here?
13 MS. ANDERSON: I don't know how you got it
14 working.
15 THE WITNESS: They'll be calling upstairs.
16 MS. ANDERSON: She's on as the third witness.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Now, as to --
20 MS. ANDERSON: How you doing?
21 THE WITNESS: Fine. Thanks.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Have you made any disparaging remarks to anyone
24 other than your lawyer regarding Scientology, the Church of
25 Scientology or Scientologists?
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1 MS. ANDERSON: That is completely irrelevant
2 and not calculated to lead to discovery of evidence.
3 MR. WEINBERG: And how is that, Pat? If
4 she's biased and her bias is impacting on her -- what
5 you've described in here as her discretionary response
6 to public records, it is one of the most relevant
7 things that there is.
8 I don't want to get in a big dispute about
9 it. But I have the right to ask the questions,
10 particularly in light of your answer that calls it a
11 "so-called `church.'"
12 MS. ANDERSON: I do not think that's
13 relevant. I don't think it's going to lead to any --
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- are you instructing her not
15 to answer?
16 MS. ANDERSON: No, I'm not telling her not to
17 answer.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Could you answer that question, please?
20 A I don't recall any disparaging comments. I'm
21 conducting a scientific investigation here. You don't seem
22 to understand that. And it doesn't make any difference to
23 me whether the individuals involved are agnostics, atheists,
24 Scientologists or Catholics.
25 Q Have you made any negative statements to any of
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1 your medical examiner colleagues regarding Scientology,
2 Scientologists or the Church of Scientology?
3 A I believe I explained to one associate that they
4 had been -- that the Church of Scientology had been
5 extremely difficult to work with over the years that I had
6 been here because we simply could get no information from
7 them when we needed information desperately in an attempt to
8 determine what happened to someone and why it happened.
9 Q Have there been other cases that you've done
10 autopsy on involving the Church of Scientology?
11 A Oh, yes.
12 Q And how many other cases?
13 A Well, four cases come to mind just off the top of
14 my head.
15 Q Have you expressed negative opinions about the
16 church, the Church of Scientology or Scientologists to other
17 medical examiners around the state?
18 A Not that I recall.
19 Q Have you spoken with Sergeant Andrews and Agent
20 Strope about their views of the Church of Scientology and
21 Scientologists?
22 A In a general fashion, yes.
23 Q Did Agent Strope tell you that he believed that
24 the Church of Scientology was not a legitimate religion or
25 words to that effect?
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1 MS. ANDERSON: Objection, fishing expedition,
2 has no relevance.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he told me that. He
4 told me about that, and Dr. Wood has said that he
5 talked to her.
6 BY MR. WEINBERG:
7 Q So what I'm asking you, Dr. Wood, is whether he
8 told you in words or effect something to the effect that he
9 believed that the Church of Scientology was not a legitimate
10 religion.
11 MS. ANDERSON: And I'm objecting because it
12 has no bearing in this case.
13 MR. WEINBERG: You've made your objection.
14 And she -- I note the objection and she -- you know,
15 the question stands.
16 THE WITNESS: All he said to me that I can
17 recall was that he objected to the likening of an
18 auditor-scientologist relationship as being that like a
19 priest-penitent.
20 BY MR. WEINBERG:
21 Q In the Catholic church?
22 A In the Catholic church.
23 Q And did you in that conversation express any
24 similar view?
25 A No, not that I recall.
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1 Q Where did this particular conversation -- is this
2 more than one conversation or just one conversation?
3 MS. ANDERSON: This is irrelevant and not
4 calculated to lead to discoverable evidence.
5 MR. WEINBERG: With all due respect, bias is
6 one of the most relevant issues in any lawsuit.
7 MS. ANDERSON: What this police officer
8 thinks is not relevant in this lawsuit.
9 MR. WEINBERG: But what she thinks is. And
10 she filed a paper --
11 MS. ANDERSON: -- she has just answered your
12 question --
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- could I just finish --
14 MS. ANDERSON: -- and now you're saying,
15 "Where did the conversation go?"
16 MR. WEINBERG: And she filed a paper which
17 calls my client a so-called church, quote, unquote.
18 MS. ANDERSON: So what. So what.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, believe it or not, I've
20 interpreted that, and so has anybody else that looked
21 at the quotes, as her saying that it's not a legitimate
22 religion.
23 MS. ANDERSON: So what.
24 MR. WEINBERG: So what?
25 MS. ANDERSON: Yeah. What difference does
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1 that make?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, maybe I think
3 that that is bigoted. Maybe I think that that is
4 biased.
5 MS. ANDERSON: Is this a civil rights action?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. What it is is that we are
7 entitled to be treated the same way as any other
8 citizen.
9 MS. ANDERSON: I agree.
10 MR. WEINBERG: And if, in fact, her feelings
11 were so strong as to put in a public document that it
12 was a -- not a legitimate church, quote, unquote, then
13 that indicates to me a concern that she is not going to
14 be fair.
15 On top of that, one of the investigating
16 officers in this case told me and told Mr. Fugate, who
17 was at the meeting, exactly what Dr. Wood just said he
18 said, which was he got grave offense by any suggestion
19 that the Church of Scientology was a church like his
20 church, the Catholic church.
21 So yeah, I'm concerned about that, and I
22 think bias is an issue in this case. Yes, it is.
23 And --
24 MS. ANDERSON: -- it might be an issue --
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- I'm trying to do this in as
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1 professional and low-key a fashion as possible. I
2 understand your sensitivity. I understand Dr. Wood's
3 sensitivity. But you need to understand my client's
4 sensitivity. Okay?
5 MS. ANDERSON: If it were on the table that
6 she were treating the church differently than someone
7 else, for example, you might have a point.
8 MR. WEINBERG: But you know what? I don't
9 know of anybody who has ever been served in a public
10 records lawsuit with discovery questions with regard to
11 an ongoing criminal investigation.
12 MS. ANDERSON: You're wrong. Just go call
13 any of the --
14 MR. WEINBERG: -- now --
15 MS. ANDERSON: -- nineteen lawsuits.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Now, are you being sarcastic?
17 MS. ANDERSON: No, I'm not.
18 BY MR. WEINBERG:
19 Q Could you answer my question, please?
20 MS. ANDERSON: What is the question?
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q The question was: Was this a series of
23 conversations or one conversation with Agent Strope?
24 A I recall one conversation.
25 Q Were there any similar conversations with Sergeant
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1 Andrews?
2 A No.
3 Q Were there any similar conversations with the
4 state attorney's office?
5 A No.
6 Q Have you taken any public positions over the years
7 in Clearwater adverse to the Church of Scientology?
8 A No.
9 Q Have you talked to Wayne Shelor with regard to his
10 views about the Church of Scientology?
11 A No.
12 MS. ANDERSON: And I'd like a standing
13 objection to any questions like this if you don't mind.
14 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine.
15 BY MR. WEINBERG:
16 Q Did you have any discussions with the reporters
17 you talked to about your views of Scientology, including Mr.
18 Meagher?
19 A No, not that I recall.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we take a couple
21 minute break. I'll chat with them, and there may be a
22 couple more questions or I may be done.
23 (The deposition was concluded at 11:15 a.m.)
24
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1 S T I P U L A T I O N S
2 It was agreed upon between counsel present and the
3 witness that reading and signing of the deposition is not
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
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4 STATE OF FLORIDA :
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH :
5
6
I, Jill M. Giles-Saenz, Court Reporter and Notary
7 Public in and for the State of Florida at Large:
8 DO HEREBY CERTIFY that the foregoing deposition was
taken before me at the time and place therein designated;
9 that before testimony was taken, the deponent had been sworn
previously; that my shorthand notes were thereafter reduced
10 to typewriting under my supervision; and the foregoing
pages, numbered 150 through 196, is a true record of the
11 testimony given by the witness.
12 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee,
attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor relative or
13 employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially
interested in the foregoing action.
14
WITNESS MY HAND AND SEAL THIS, THE 12TH DAY OF
15 FEBRUARY, A.D., 1997, IN THE CITY OF TAMPA, COUNTY OF
HILLSBOROUGH, STATE OF FLORIDA.
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_______________________________________
20 Jill M. Giles-Saenz
Court Reporter
21 Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
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1 I have read the foregoing pages and,
2 except for any corrections or amend-
3 ments I have indicated on the sheet
4 attached for such purposes, I hereby
5 subscribe to the accuracy of the
6 transcript.
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(Signature of Deponent)
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10 (Date)
11 _____________________________________
(Witness to Signature)
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