From: Mike O'Connor <mike@leptonicsystems.com>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Murder or slaughter? Roaches or abrasions? (Dandar Volume 5)
Message-ID: <mike-5BAA76.20305111062002@news.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:30:51 -0400
Here, Mr. Dandar explains where he got the idea that the cult literally
let Lisa McPherson die, and that it was the current cult dictator's
decision to do that. An interesting discussion ensues, and suprise, it
actually has to do with Lisa McPherson! Is it a murder we are talking
about, or merely a slaughter?
[Weinberg is reading Dandar's document:]
2 Q "Yet, the defendants, in total and conscious
3 disregard to the rights of Lisa McPherson, willfully,
4 intentionally, wantonly and maliciously, toward the last
5 days of her life, decided to let Lisa McPherson die, i.e.,
6 end cycle, in Scientology terms, rather than save her life,
7 even though her extremist physical condition was known to be
8 entirely reversible. Scientology has no restrictions on
9 seeking licensed professional medical care. This decision
10 made by Scientology, through the Sea Org by David Miscavige,
11 carried out by Kartuzinski, Johnson and Houghton, was only
12 due to their decision to protect Scientology from bad public
13 relations."
14 That is the allegations that I'm talking about.
15 A That is most of 34. The first thing that comes to
16 my mind is Dr. Werner Spitz, pathologist retained by the
17 estate, who told me, after reviewing all of the information
18 on the medical aspects only, that they simply watched her
19 die. So that is why it is in there like that. That comes
20 from Dr. Spitz.
21 Dr. Bandt --
22 Q Before you go on, so you mean where it says
23 "decided to let Lisa McPherson die, rather than save her
24 life," that comes from Dr. Spitz?
25 A Right.
1 Q Okay. What else?
2 THE COURT: Just Dr. Spitz? Or are you -- are
3 you talking about all of the things here?
4 THE WITNESS: No. No. I'm talking about the
5 whole paragraph, but, in particular, the medical
6 part. Dr. Spitz is the one who told me first that
7 his opinion was they watched her die.
8 Dr. Bandt and Dr. Coe also came to the same,
9 independently of all three. They are all acting
10 independently of each other. He came to the same
11 conclusions.
12 Now, Jesse Prince and Vaughn Young contributed
13 to that by bringing in the Scientology thinking
14 about doing everything you can possibly do to
15 protect your seniors, higher-ups, and doing
16 everything you can possibly do to protect the image
17 of Scientology, protect the tech of Scientology,
18 which is the tech never fails anyone. But Lisa
19 McPherson is a prime example it does fail, and so,
20 therefore, in the thinking of Scientology, according
21 to my Scientology experts, and the fact that
22 Scientologists firmly believe that there is
23 reincarnation, you drop your body, meaning you die,
24 you come back later, it's not a big deal. Letting
25 Lisa McPherson die would be the best choice under
1 these circumstances, rather than take her back to
2 the emergency room where they had previously
3 promised the ER doctor that they would make sure
4 that she would get better, and if she didn't, they
5 would immediately bring her back, which they didn't
6 do.
7 Now, that is -- this paragraph is a combination
8 of at least three forensic pathologists, plus Jesse
9 Prince, plus Vaughn Young.
11 Q Anything else?
12 A It might even be Stacy Brooks.
[...]
25 Q When you say the defendants decided to let Lisa
1 McPherson die, you are saying and you are alleging that
2 there was a conscious decision by the management of
3 Scientology, of the Church of Scientology, to allow her to
4 die, correct? That is what the allegation is?
5 A It speaks for itself.
6 Q But am I right?
7 A That is right.
8 Q All right now --
9 A Somebody made a decision --
10 Q Well, not just somebody.
11 THE COURT: Not somebody, Mr. Dandar. It says
12 in here that it was -- it was made by Scientology,
13 through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige.
14 THE WITNESS: That is the only one that can
15 make that decision.
16 THE COURT: Well then, what -- the doctors have
17 got absolutely nothing to say about that, they
18 wouldn't know a thing about that.
19 THE WITNESS: That is what I said. I said this
20 is a combination of medical --
21 THE COURT: Well, who is it that you have that
22 says that?
23 THE WITNESS: On David Miscavige, is Jesse
24 Prince, Vaughn Young and Stacy Brooks.
[...]
16 Q You say, "This decision made by Scientology,
17 through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige, and carried out by"
18 these three individuals, you say, "was only due to their
19 decision to protect Scientology from bad public relations."
20 A Correct.
21 Q Now, what evidence do you have that there was a
22 decision by anyone related to Lisa McPherson to protect --
23 that had to do with her death to protect Scientology from
24 bad public relations?
25 A The general business practice of the Church of
1 Scientology. The publications of the Church of Scientology.
2 The greatest good for the greatest number. The knowing
3 Scientology or keep it working, keep Scientology working by
4 Mr. Hubbard, saying I would rather have you dead than
5 incapable. The introspection rundown. The search and
6 discovery document course that says the psychotics --
7 sometimes they can't be kept alive. This book, Signs Of
8 Survival, that said if you blow 2.0 on the tone scale, which
9 someone who is psychotic or chronically ill would be, if you
10 can't get them any better, then you let them die quietly and
11 without sorrow.
12 That is the only thing that comes to mind at this
13 time.
14 Q All right. And all that was in your mind when you
15 made this allegation in this complaint that is the extant
16 complaint in this case?
17 A At least that much was in my mind.
If the cult doctator made a decision to let McPherson die, it's
basically a murder. But if the cult just dithered and bungled and
omitted proper case, it's more like manslaughter. The cult is making the
point Dandar used the word "murder" a couple times. The Judge seems to
be saying what Dandar has is a homicide through manslaughter. I'm not
sure what the hubbub is about, as a case for murder was not filed. I
guess the cult is trying to make a case over him just using the word.
7 THE COURT: Let Lisa McPherson die. You said
8 they decided to let Lisa McPherson die.
9 THE WITNESS: Right. They did not put a gun to
10 her head. They didn't do anything -- this is an act
11 of omission. It's like watching somebody bleed to
12 death in front of you. You didn't cause the person
13 to bleed, but you are standing there, or you are
14 walking out of the room, and they are bleeding to
15 death and they can't save themselves. That is an
16 act of omission.
17 That is what my medical doctors said happened
18 in this case. They just didn't do what a first
19 grader would have done. They looked at this woman
20 in a coma-like state and they just virtually
21 abandoned her. And they said that is homicide. And
22 I agree with that.
23 THE COURT: Well, as I read it, they said it is
24 manslaughter, which is kind of a reckless
25 indifference to human life. It certainly does not
1 equate, nor is it equatable, with intentional
2 murder.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, no. I agree with you.
4 THE COURT: Your complaint is phrased as if
5 it's an intentional decision by higher-ups to allow
6 her to die intentionally. That is murder.
7 Manslaughter is reckless indifference to human life.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, I do say in -- I believe
9 I'm saying this, Judge, in this Paragraph 34, "Total
10 and conscious disregard for the rights of Lisa
11 McPherson, willfully, intentionally, wantonly and
12 maliciously, rather than save her life, decided to
13 let her die."
14 That is how they told me and that is how it is
15 in the deposition.
16 THE COURT: Whose deposition?
17 THE WITNESS: It's in Dr. Spitz's --
18 THE COURT: No, it isn't. I read it. It is
19 not. It is not in Dr. Spitz's deposition. It
20 certainly isn't in Dr. Coe's deposition. And it
21 really isn't in Dr. Spitz's deposition like that.
22 I mean, he basically kind of gives you a very
23 clear manslaughter. It's very questionable, to me,
24 as to whether or not he gives you an intentional
25 murder. In fact, I think he specifically said it
1 isn't.
2 THE WITNESS: And I'm saying to you I'm
3 agreeing with, of course, what my experts say. I'm
4 telling you -- or I'm suggesting to you that this
5 paragraph comports to what my medical experts told
6 me, which is in their deposition, also, after this
7 complaint was filed, is that no one shot her or
8 intentionally did anything to cause the injury.
9 They simply did not do anything, when it was obvious
10 they should have done something. It is an omission.
11 THE COURT: If you would have phrased it like
12 that, you would be in pretty good shape. That is
13 not how you phrased it. And you can't sit here and
14 pretend that is how you phrased it.
15 You phrased it like there was a conscious
16 decision sent down through channels to these workers
17 that told them, don't give her water, let her die.
18 That is what you said. And you have got no proof.
19 THE WITNESS: If you recall, even Stacy Brooks,
20 in this hearing, told you, Judge, that end cycle and
21 her definition and understanding as a former
22 Scientologist, is if someone has a terminal illness,
23 there are processing, as they call them in
24 Scientology, to help the person die.
25 THE COURT: Well, of course according to your
1 expert -- according to your experts and according to
2 everything you would be telling this jury, she did
3 not have a terminal illness.
4 You would be saying, and your experts would be
5 saying, all they had to do is take her to the
6 doctor, hook up the IVs and she would be a living,
7 walking, breathing girl today.
8 THE WITNESS: That is exactly right.
9 THE COURT: So that is right. And I know it.
10 So what you have said in here, and what you're going
11 to try to promote in here, is a decision was made
12 "She's no good to us, we don't want her anymore, let
13 her die." That is what you said.
14 THE WITNESS: That is what I said.
15 THE COURT: And you don't have any proof of it.
16 THE WITNESS: But what I have is the medical
17 evidence of my doctors telling me how in the world
18 can anybody let someone get in this condition and
19 not rush them to the hospital.
20 THE COURT: Because they acted with reckless
21 indifference to human life. It is called
22 manslaughter. And it surely is a far cry from what
23 you put in 34.
24 And what the Church is saying, and what they
25 have been saying, and -- once it became apparent to
1 me what they were saying, is this is what brought
2 them so much grief. You said out there, everybody
3 said out there, they murdered Lisa McPherson. You
4 said it, and you don't have any proof of it. You
5 still don't have any proof of it, right, except what
6 Jesse Prince may have said?
7 THE WITNESS: I have -- I have proof of a
8 homicide.
9 THE COURT: You have a proof of a homicide
10 through manslaughter.
11 THE WITNESS: I agree with you. That is --
12 THE COURT: You have some evidence of that. I
13 shouldn't say you have proof, but you have doctors.
14 THE WITNESS: And that is what I have been
15 saying all along.
16 THE COURT: No, you haven't.
17 THE WITNESS: If I wanted to say they murdered
18 her, Judge, I think I would have used the word
19 "murder." But I didn't.
20 Paragraph 34 is the reckless indifference, it's
21 the total and conscious disregard, which Florida
22 Statutes equates to intentional conduct. It is like
23 running a stop sign totally drunk.
24 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's saying now
25 is basically he doesn't have any proof that David
1 Miscavige, from on high, I said that lightly, but,
2 you know, the top dog, so to speak, top banana, head
3 of the Church, said, "Let's see, she's got problems
4 down there, I think she's better off dead than
5 alive," so they chose to step back and let her die.
6 There is no proof of that. And apparently he's
7 saying that is not what he meant for proof. But --
8 MR. WEINBERG: I can read --
9 THE COURT: But I offered him the opportunity,
10 at the beginning of the hearing, to tell me
11 differently. And I think he said no.
[...]
24 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's saying now
25 is basically he doesn't have any proof that David
1 Miscavige, from on high, I said that lightly, but,
2 you know, the top dog, so to speak, top banana, head
3 of the Church, said, "Let's see, she's got problems
4 down there, I think she's better off dead than
5 alive," so they chose to step back and let her die.
6 There is no proof of that. And apparently he's
7 saying that is not what he meant for proof. But --
8 MR. WEINBERG: I can read --
9 THE COURT: But I offered him the opportunity,
10 at the beginning of the hearing, to tell me
11 differently. And I think he said no.
So, did Ms. McPherson get bitten by cocroaches? Mr. Dandar's current
theory seems to be yes, and since the Hacienda location is infested with
them, perhaps she died or was stored there, rather than the Fort
Harrison Hotel. The Judge says there is only like an 80% chance of
cockroach bites based on the medical guys, and there's no evidence of
her being at the Hacienda.
Again, the Judge doesn't buy the view that the cult would rather see
McPherson dead than get her medical case. I admit it's a mind-boggling
throught, but by golly over the years I've come to think it's a viable
theory. Will it fly in this court?
19 THE COURT: This is sort of mind-boggling to
20 me. Is it really something that you mean to
21 present, that the Church of Scientology would have
22 worse relations if they had taken Lisa McPherson to
23 the hospital, dehydrated -- let her be dehydrated --
24 hydrated, I should say, if that is what the problem
25 was, and let her either stay or leave or whatever,
1 than it was to let her die and go through this flap?
2 THE WITNESS: It's -- it makes -- outside of
3 the thinking of the Church of Scientology, it
4 boggles the mind, it boggles my mind.
5 But I'll have to rely on my former -- my
6 experts who are former Scientologists, especially
7 Mr. Prince, who talks about other end cycles he has
8 seen.
9 THE COURT: I understand that. And I
10 understand that Mr. Prince may say that.
11 But, I mean, I do understand what you alleged
12 and what you said the Church feels about bad public
13 relations and some of those things.
14 But, I mean, nobody in their right mind would
15 think they would want this woman to die in their
16 care because they thought somehow that would not
17 cause bad public relations. Why, they would know
18 very well that would cause huge public relations, as
19 it, indeed, did here.
20 I mean, these -- these are not stupid people
21 we're dealing with.
22 THE WITNESS: The question is why did they take
23 her fifty minutes away to another hospital to -- and
24 lie to their own public Scientology member,
25 Dr. Minkoff, who said they lied -- Janis Johnson
1 lied to him. And he was appalled and shocked about
2 her lies about the condition of Lisa McPherson.
3 THE COURT: Wouldn't you say that is reckless
4 indifference, perhaps?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, I think it's a little more
6 than that.
7 THE COURT: Why did she take her at all? Why
8 didn't she kind of bury her in the backyard? How
9 stupid, Mr. Dandar.
10 THE WITNESS: It would be a death -- in this
11 physical condition, either at the Ft. Harrison Hotel
12 or Hacienda, wherever she was, it would be a death
13 that they would --
14 THE COURT: I'm tired of hearing that. Do you
15 have any proof of that, she was at the Hacienda
16 where there were cockroaches?
17 THE WITNESS: Well, that is where the
18 cockroaches are.
19 THE COURT: I don't know if there are
20 cockroaches there or not. But you have no proof of
21 that, and I'm tired of hearing about it.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I have eyewitness testimony
23 that there is cockroach -- infestation of
24 cockroaches at the Hacienda.
25 THE COURT: Oh, boy. I just don't think I can
1 stand another minute.
2 Do you have any proof of the fact that Lisa
3 McPherson was at the Hacienda instead of at the Ft.
4 Harrison?
5 THE WITNESS: Testimony? No.
6 THE COURT: Do you have any proof?
7 THE WITNESS: No. I have no testimony, no
8 documents.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Well, do you have any proof?
11 A I have cockroaches feeding on Lisa McPherson's
12 body. And if -- if there is none at the hotel, then where
13 is she?
14 THE COURT: No, actually what you have, you
15 have somebody that says there is a 80 percent chance
16 they are consistent with cockroaches. At best you
17 have a 20 percent chance it is not consistent with
18 cockroaches. In your best case you have a doctor
19 that says it is 80 percent consistent with
20 cockroaches. Anybody can look at that and figure
21 there is a 20 percent chance that it isn't
22 consistent with cockroaches.
23 You have a whole bunch of other folks that say
24 it is abrasion.
25 Guess what? With the facts as they are, you
1 can look at it and say, well, the 20 percent chance
2 must be the right one here because there is no
3 cockroaches at the Ft. Harrison.
4 THE WITNESS: I -- there is other evidence.
5 Dr. Goff also said, Judge, that based upon his
6 expertise and experience, he can't think of anything
7 else but cockroaches that would have caused those
8 marks.
9 THE COURT: You know, I swear to God I don't
10 think you read the same thing I read.
11 He can't even say it's an insect. He doesn't
12 know if it's an insect or abrasion. He has to look
13 to the medical examiner to tell you whether it's an
14 insect or abrasion. The guy that says it's an
15 insect or abrasion can't tell you he's a 100 percent
16 sure. He can tell you within reasonable degree of
17 medical probability, which is 51 percent.
18 So, guess what? You put all this together,
19 what do you have, a good, smart-thinking lawyer like
20 you? What do you have?
21 THE WITNESS: You have a prima facie case.
22 THE COURT: Well, you have -- what you have got
23 is a good probability, unless you can establish that
24 there are, A, roaches at the Ft. Harrison, or, B,
25 she was at Hacienda.
1 What you really have is probably they were
2 abrasions. And that is exactly what they are. And
3 your Dr. Goff wouldn't argue with that because he
4 said he wouldn't even begin to say whether they are
5 insect bites or not.
6 THE WITNESS: Their own entomologist, who is
7 with a master's degree -- I can't remember his name
8 right now but I took his deposition, Judge -- he
9 said this -- based on the pictures he was shown by
10 defense counsel, shows openings in the door which is
11 right adjacent to the public street, and there is a
12 little plant area between the door and the public
13 street. He said those openings in that door are
14 sufficient enough to have roaches or other insects
15 come into that room. And they are attracted by
16 what? There is no lights on in the room and there
17 is feces --
18 MR. WEINBERG: That is not true. That is not
19 what the testimony was. There were lights on and
20 people in the room.
21 THE COURT: Yes, you just don't really need to
22 go there. I have already entered that order.
23 But I just was trying to say -- you seem to be
24 playing right into -- I hate to tell you this, but
25 you seem to be playing right into their hands here.
1 It seems like maybe you haven't read their
2 motions or terminating sanctions. It seems as if
3 everything you want to just continue and continue to
4 say and do, with very little proof of it, kind of
5 shows what you were really out to do is to damn the
6 Church of Scientology.
7 THE WITNESS: That is not true at all.
8 THE COURT: Well, it sure does sound like it.
9 And that is what they're saying. And that is what
10 they're saying in their counterclaim. And that is
11 what they're saying in their motion for terminating
12 sanctions, that -- it goes beyond that.
13 What they are saying is that is exactly what
14 the situation is, and that you knew it, and that you
15 and Mr. Minton were in on it together, and this is
16 what you really had in mind to do, which was to set
17 out to ruin, put down, do away with, cause
18 embarrassment to, on and on, the Church and its
19 members.
20 And, of course, you say, well, that wasn't
21 true. But -- but -- you know, you do understand
22 that is what they're saying?
23 THE WITNESS: I do. This allegation, from my
24 experience in doing personal injury/wrongful death
25 cases for over 20 years, this allegation was an
1 allegation that I would make against a really,
2 really, really bad nursing home who let someone in
3 bedsores just sit and suffer and die from the
4 bedsore. Someone who made a decision, "I'm not
5 going to do anything about it. I'm going to do the
6 act of omission," and the person dies from a
7 bedsore. Or the person bleeds to death in bed in a
8 bad, bad nursing home.
9 I could care less about the Church of
10 Scientology. I didn't even know about the Church of
11 Scientology, and I lived in Pinellas County, south
12 county, before I ever got this case. I could care
13 less about the Church of Scientology.
14 I'm not Mr. Minton's puppet. I wasn't on his
15 agenda. I was doing the wrongful death case.
16 And this allegation is above a manslaughter
17 allegation but it's below a murder count. It's in
18 the between now. And it is based on my medical
19 doctors, not Jesse Prince.
20 THE COURT: All right.
The Judge is getting tired of all the incredible minutae the cult is
bringing up. Duh! That's their thing! Well I know _I'm_ going bonkers
reading all this crap. Luckily, I have no life. But the Judge, she's
threatened to limit the length of time allowed. Thank you Judge! Here,
she says it is typical for ther cult to heap stuff on:
19 Q Okay. Now, you filed a motion for sanctions
20 against Mr. Moxon in regard to the Teresa Summers
21 deposition, didn't you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You allege that he did not notify her, at her
24 deposition, of the confidentiality provision -- the order
25 that Judge Moody had entered several years before. Correct?
1 A Correct.
2 Q You didn't notify her, either, of that at the
3 deposition, did you?
4 A Correct. I wasn't taking her deposition. What
5 was the date of that, by the way?
6 THE COURT: By the way, I don't care about
7 that.
8 MR. WEINBERG: About the -- about the
9 confidentiality provision?
10 THE COURT: I don't care about that, and I
11 don't care whether he filed a motion against
12 Mr. Moxon, and I don't care whether Mr. Moxon told
13 her, and I don't care whether Mr. Dandar told her.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right. But what I'm going to
15 show Mr. Dandar, if it is okay, is that --
16 THE COURT: If it is something that is
17 relevant, I'm anxious to hear. But all that, I
18 don't care about it. It sounds like you guys fuss
19 and file a motion, bring things to court, typical of
20 what is happening in this case.
The cult guy goes on, and on, and the Judge is getting annoyed. The cult
guy hopes to go off the record. Maybe he wonders if the exchanges will
appear on ars.
22 THE COURT: We're not going to go. We're not
23 going to take a little break. I'm tired. That is
24 it. 9 o'clock.
25 Why don't you try to finish up with him
1 tomorrow?
2 THE WITNESS: Are you going to be finished
3 tomorrow?
4 MR. WEINBERG: I'll do my best.
5 THE COURT: I'm going to start really telling
6 you you can't go over stuff you have gone over. I
7 knew this was in the record. I mean, I knew it.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not trying to -- are we off
9 the record? Are --
10 THE COURT: It was there. I'm not going over
11 stuff I have been over.
12 MR. WEINBERG: But --
13 THE COURT: We'll get to that agreement
14 tomorrow, or you're going to stop and I'm going to
15 assume it is not important, which I kind of
16 suggested all along it wasn't very important,
17 because it wasn't. But if you want to get to it,
18 you better get to it. We can't drag this on
19 forever.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'll get to it. I'm not trying
21 to drag it out.
22 THE COURT: Everybody is dragging it on
23 forever. That is both sides. And, yes, you are
24 dragging it on. And you know --
25 MR. WEINBERG: Are we off the record now?
1 THE COURT: Yes.
--
LYING IS A SCIENTOLOGY SACRAMENT
ASK THEM ABOUT XENU
Mike O'Connor
|