Murder or slaughter? Roaches or abrasions?

Posting by Mike O'Connor

From: Mike O'Connor <>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: Murder or slaughter? Roaches or abrasions? (Dandar Volume 5)
Message-ID: <>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:30:51 -0400
Here, Mr. Dandar explains where he got the idea that the cult literally 
let Lisa McPherson die, and that it was the current cult dictator's 
decision to do that. An interesting discussion ensues, and suprise, it 
actually has to do with Lisa McPherson! Is it a murder we are talking 
about, or merely a slaughter?

[Weinberg is reading Dandar's document:]
   2         Q    "Yet, the defendants, in total and conscious
   3    disregard to the rights of Lisa McPherson, willfully,
   4    intentionally, wantonly and maliciously, toward the last
   5    days of her life, decided to let Lisa McPherson die, i.e.,
   6    end cycle, in Scientology terms, rather than save her life,
   7    even though her extremist physical condition was known to be
   8    entirely reversible.  Scientology has no restrictions on
   9    seeking licensed professional medical care.  This decision
  10    made by Scientology, through the Sea Org by David Miscavige,
  11    carried out by Kartuzinski, Johnson and Houghton, was only
  12    due to their decision to protect Scientology from bad public
  13    relations."
  14              That is the allegations that I'm talking about.

  15         A    That is most of 34.  The first thing that comes to
  16    my mind is Dr. Werner Spitz, pathologist retained by the
  17    estate, who told me, after reviewing all of the information
  18    on the medical aspects only, that they simply watched her
  19    die.  So that is why it is in there like that.  That comes
  20    from Dr. Spitz.
  21              Dr. Bandt --

  22         Q    Before you go on, so you mean where it says
  23    "decided to let Lisa McPherson die, rather than save her
  24    life," that comes from Dr. Spitz?

  25         A    Right.

   1         Q    Okay.  What else?

   2              THE COURT:  Just Dr. Spitz?  Or are you -- are
   3         you talking about all of the things here?

   4              THE WITNESS:  No.  No.  I'm talking about the
   5         whole paragraph, but, in particular, the medical
   6         part.  Dr. Spitz is the one who told me first that
   7         his opinion was they watched her die.

   8              Dr. Bandt and Dr. Coe also came to the same,
   9         independently of all three.  They are all acting
  10         independently of each other.  He came to the same
  11         conclusions.

  12              Now, Jesse Prince and Vaughn Young contributed
  13         to that by bringing in the Scientology thinking
  14         about doing everything you can possibly do to
  15         protect your seniors, higher-ups, and doing
  16         everything you can possibly do to protect the image
  17         of Scientology, protect the tech of Scientology,
  18         which is the tech never fails anyone.  But Lisa
  19         McPherson is a prime example it does fail, and so,
  20         therefore, in the thinking of Scientology, according
  21         to my Scientology experts, and the fact that
  22         Scientologists firmly believe that there is
  23         reincarnation, you drop your body, meaning you die,
  24         you come back later, it's not a big deal.  Letting
  25         Lisa McPherson die would be the best choice under
   1         these circumstances, rather than take her back to
   2         the emergency room where they had previously
   3         promised the ER doctor that they would make sure
   4         that she would get better, and if she didn't, they
   5         would immediately bring her back, which they didn't
   6         do.

   7              Now, that is -- this paragraph is a combination
   8         of at least three forensic pathologists, plus Jesse
   9         Prince, plus Vaughn Young.

  11         Q    Anything else?

  12         A    It might even be Stacy Brooks.
  25         Q    When you say the defendants decided to let Lisa
   1    McPherson die, you are saying and you are alleging that
   2    there was a conscious decision by the management of
   3    Scientology, of the Church of Scientology, to allow her to
   4    die, correct?  That is what the allegation is?

   5         A    It speaks for itself.

   6         Q    But am I right?

   7         A    That is right.

   8         Q    All right now --

   9         A    Somebody made a decision --

  10         Q    Well, not just somebody.

  11              THE COURT:  Not somebody, Mr. Dandar.  It says
  12         in here that it was -- it was made by Scientology,
  13         through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige.

  14              THE WITNESS:  That is the only one that can
  15         make that decision.

  16              THE COURT:  Well then, what -- the doctors have
  17         got absolutely nothing to say about that, they
  18         wouldn't know a thing about that.

  19              THE WITNESS:  That is what I said.  I said this
  20         is a combination of medical --

  21              THE COURT:  Well, who is it that you have that
  22         says that?

  23              THE WITNESS:  On David Miscavige, is Jesse
  24         Prince, Vaughn Young and Stacy Brooks.
  16         Q    You say, "This decision made by Scientology,
  17    through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige, and carried out by"
  18    these three individuals, you say, "was only due to their
  19    decision to protect Scientology from bad public relations."

  20         A    Correct.

  21         Q    Now, what evidence do you have that there was a
  22    decision by anyone related to Lisa McPherson to protect --
  23    that had to do with her death to protect Scientology from
  24    bad public relations?

  25         A    The general business practice of the Church of
   1    Scientology.  The publications of the Church of Scientology.
   2    The greatest good for the greatest number.  The knowing
   3    Scientology or keep it working, keep Scientology working by
   4    Mr. Hubbard, saying I would rather have you dead than
   5    incapable.  The introspection rundown.  The search and
   6    discovery document course that says the psychotics --
   7    sometimes they can't be kept alive.  This book, Signs Of
   8    Survival, that said if you blow 2.0 on the tone scale, which
   9    someone who is psychotic or chronically ill would be, if you
  10    can't get them any better, then you let them die quietly and
  11    without sorrow.
  12              That is the only thing that comes to mind at this
  13    time.

  14         Q    All right.  And all that was in your mind when you
  15    made this allegation in this complaint that is the extant
  16    complaint in this case?
  17         A    At least that much was in my mind.

If the cult doctator made a decision to let McPherson die, it's 
basically a murder. But if the cult just dithered and bungled and 
omitted proper case, it's more like manslaughter. The cult is making the 
point Dandar used the word "murder" a couple times. The Judge seems to 
be saying what Dandar has is a homicide through manslaughter. I'm not 
sure what the hubbub is about, as a case for murder was not filed. I 
guess the cult is trying to make a case over him just using the word.

   7              THE COURT:  Let Lisa McPherson die.  You said
   8         they decided to let Lisa McPherson die.

   9              THE WITNESS:  Right.  They did not put a gun to
  10         her head.  They didn't do anything -- this is an act
  11         of omission.  It's like watching somebody bleed to
  12         death in front of you.  You didn't cause the person
  13         to bleed, but you are standing there, or you are
  14         walking out of the room, and they are bleeding to
  15         death and they can't save themselves.  That is an
  16         act of omission.

  17              That is what my medical doctors said happened
  18         in this case.  They just didn't do what a first
  19         grader would have done.  They looked at this woman
  20         in a coma-like state and they just virtually
  21         abandoned her.  And they said that is homicide.  And
  22         I agree with that.

  23              THE COURT:  Well, as I read it, they said it is
  24         manslaughter, which is kind of a reckless
  25         indifference to human life.  It certainly does not
   1         equate, nor is it equatable, with intentional
   2         murder.

   3              THE WITNESS:  Well, no.  I agree with you.

   4              THE COURT:  Your complaint is phrased as if
   5         it's an intentional decision by higher-ups to allow
   6         her to die intentionally.  That is murder.
   7         Manslaughter is reckless indifference to human life.

   8              THE WITNESS:  Well, I do say in -- I believe
   9         I'm saying this, Judge, in this Paragraph 34, "Total
  10         and conscious disregard for the rights of Lisa
  11         McPherson, willfully, intentionally, wantonly and
  12         maliciously, rather than save her life, decided to
  13         let her die."

  14              That is how they told me and that is how it is
  15         in the deposition.

  16              THE COURT:  Whose deposition?

  17              THE WITNESS:  It's in Dr. Spitz's --

  18              THE COURT:  No, it isn't.  I read it.  It is
  19         not.  It is not in Dr. Spitz's deposition.  It
  20         certainly isn't in Dr. Coe's deposition.  And it
  21         really isn't in Dr. Spitz's deposition like that.
  22              I mean, he basically kind of gives you a very
  23         clear manslaughter.  It's very questionable, to me,
  24         as to whether or not he gives you an intentional
  25         murder.  In fact, I think he specifically said it
   1         isn't.

   2              THE WITNESS:  And I'm saying to you I'm
   3         agreeing with, of course, what my experts say.  I'm
   4         telling you -- or I'm suggesting to you that this
   5         paragraph comports to what my medical experts told
   6         me, which is in their deposition, also, after this
   7         complaint was filed, is that no one shot her or
   8         intentionally did anything to cause the injury.
   9         They simply did not do anything, when it was obvious
  10         they should have done something.  It is an omission.

  11              THE COURT:  If you would have phrased it like
  12         that, you would be in pretty good shape.  That is
  13         not how you phrased it.  And you can't sit here and
  14         pretend that is how you phrased it.
  15              You phrased it like there was a conscious
  16         decision sent down through channels to these workers
  17         that told them, don't give her water, let her die.
  18         That is what you said.  And you have got no proof.

  19              THE WITNESS:  If you recall, even Stacy Brooks,
  20         in this hearing, told you, Judge, that end cycle and
  21         her definition and understanding as a former
  22         Scientologist, is if someone has a terminal illness,
  23         there are processing, as they call them in
  24         Scientology, to help the person die.

  25              THE COURT:  Well, of course according to your
   1         expert -- according to your experts and according to
   2         everything you would be telling this jury, she did
   3         not have a terminal illness.
   4              You would be saying, and your experts would be
   5         saying, all they had to do is take her to the
   6         doctor, hook up the IVs and she would be a living,
   7         walking, breathing girl today.

   8              THE WITNESS:  That is exactly right.

   9              THE COURT:  So that is right.  And I know it.
  10         So what you have said in here, and what you're going
  11         to try to promote in here, is a decision was made
  12         "She's no good to us, we don't want her anymore, let
  13         her die."  That is what you said.

  14              THE WITNESS:  That is what I said.

  15              THE COURT:  And you don't have any proof of it.

  16              THE WITNESS:  But what I have is the medical
  17         evidence of my doctors telling me how in the world
  18         can anybody let someone get in this condition and
  19         not rush them to the hospital.

  20              THE COURT:  Because they acted with reckless
  21         indifference to human life.  It is called
  22         manslaughter.  And it surely is a far cry from what
  23         you put in 34.
  24              And what the Church is saying, and what they
  25         have been saying, and -- once it became apparent to
   1         me what they were saying, is this is what brought
   2         them so much grief.  You said out there, everybody
   3         said out there, they murdered Lisa McPherson.  You
   4         said it, and you don't have any proof of it.  You
   5         still don't have any proof of it, right, except what
   6         Jesse Prince may have said?

   7              THE WITNESS:  I have -- I have proof of a
   8         homicide.

   9              THE COURT:  You have a proof of a homicide
  10         through manslaughter.

  11              THE WITNESS:  I agree with you.  That is --

  12              THE COURT:  You have some evidence of that.  I
  13         shouldn't say you have proof, but you have doctors.

  14              THE WITNESS:  And that is what I have been
  15         saying all along.

  16              THE COURT:  No, you haven't.

  17              THE WITNESS:  If I wanted to say they murdered
  18         her, Judge, I think I would have used the word
  19         "murder."  But I didn't.
  20              Paragraph 34 is the reckless indifference, it's
  21         the total and conscious disregard, which Florida
  22         Statutes equates to intentional conduct.  It is like
  23         running a stop sign totally drunk.
  24              THE COURT:  Well, I think what he's saying now
  25         is basically he doesn't have any proof that David
  1         Miscavige, from on high, I said that lightly, but,
   2         you know, the top dog, so to speak, top banana, head
   3         of the Church, said, "Let's see, she's got problems
   4         down there, I think she's better off dead than
   5         alive," so they chose to step back and let her die.
   6              There is no proof of that.  And apparently he's
   7         saying that is not what he meant for proof.  But --
   8              MR. WEINBERG:  I can read --
   9              THE COURT:  But I offered him the opportunity,
  10         at the beginning of the hearing, to tell me
  11         differently.  And I think he said no.

  24              THE COURT:  Well, I think what he's saying now
  25         is basically he doesn't have any proof that David
   1         Miscavige, from on high, I said that lightly, but,
   2         you know, the top dog, so to speak, top banana, head
   3         of the Church, said, "Let's see, she's got problems
   4         down there, I think she's better off dead than
   5         alive," so they chose to step back and let her die.
   6              There is no proof of that.  And apparently he's
   7         saying that is not what he meant for proof.  But --

   8              MR. WEINBERG:  I can read --

   9              THE COURT:  But I offered him the opportunity,
  10         at the beginning of the hearing, to tell me
  11         differently.  And I think he said no.

So, did Ms. McPherson get bitten by cocroaches? Mr. Dandar's current 
theory seems to be yes, and since the Hacienda location is infested with 
them, perhaps she died or was stored there, rather than the Fort 
Harrison Hotel. The Judge says there is only like an 80% chance of 
cockroach bites based on the medical guys, and there's no evidence of 
her being at the Hacienda.

Again, the Judge doesn't buy the view that the cult would rather see 
McPherson dead than get her medical case. I admit it's a mind-boggling 
throught, but by golly over the years I've come to think it's a viable 
theory. Will it fly in this court?

  19              THE COURT:  This is sort of mind-boggling to
  20         me.  Is it really something that you mean to
  21         present, that the Church of Scientology would have
  22         worse relations if they had taken Lisa McPherson to
  23         the hospital, dehydrated -- let her be dehydrated --
  24         hydrated, I should say, if that is what the problem
  25         was, and let her either stay or leave or whatever,
   1         than it was to let her die and go through this flap?

   2              THE WITNESS:  It's -- it makes -- outside of
   3         the thinking of the Church of Scientology, it
   4         boggles the mind, it boggles my mind.
   5              But I'll have to rely on my former -- my
   6         experts who are former Scientologists, especially
   7         Mr. Prince, who talks about other end cycles he has
   8         seen.

   9              THE COURT:  I understand that.  And I
  10         understand that Mr. Prince may say that.
  11              But, I mean, I do understand what you alleged
  12         and what you said the Church feels about bad public
  13         relations and some of those things.
  14              But, I mean, nobody in their right mind would
  15         think they would want this woman to die in their
  16         care because they thought somehow that would not
  17         cause bad public relations.  Why, they would know
  18         very well that would cause huge public relations, as
  19         it, indeed, did here.
  20              I mean, these -- these are not stupid people
  21         we're dealing with.

  22              THE WITNESS:  The question is why did they take
  23         her fifty minutes away to another hospital to -- and
  24         lie to their own public Scientology member,
  25         Dr. Minkoff, who said they lied -- Janis Johnson
   1         lied to him.  And he was appalled and shocked about
   2         her lies about the condition of Lisa McPherson.

   3              THE COURT:  Wouldn't you say that is reckless
   4         indifference, perhaps?

   5              THE WITNESS:  Well, I think it's a little more
   6         than that.

   7              THE COURT:  Why did she take her at all?  Why
   8         didn't she kind of bury her in the backyard?  How
   9         stupid, Mr. Dandar.

  10              THE WITNESS:  It would be a death -- in this
  11         physical condition, either at the Ft. Harrison Hotel
  12         or Hacienda, wherever she was, it would be a death
  13         that they would --

  14              THE COURT:  I'm tired of hearing that.  Do you
  15         have any proof of that, she was at the Hacienda
  16         where there were cockroaches?

  17              THE WITNESS:  Well, that is where the
  18         cockroaches are.

  19              THE COURT:  I don't know if there are
  20         cockroaches there or not.  But you have no proof of
  21         that, and I'm tired of hearing about it.

  22              THE WITNESS:  Well, I have eyewitness testimony
  23         that there is cockroach -- infestation of
  24         cockroaches at the Hacienda.

  25              THE COURT:  Oh, boy.  I just don't think I can
   1         stand another minute.
   2              Do you have any proof of the fact that Lisa
   3         McPherson was at the Hacienda instead of at the Ft.
   4         Harrison?

   5              THE WITNESS:  Testimony?  No.

   6              THE COURT:  Do you have any proof?

   7              THE WITNESS:  No.  I have no testimony, no
   8         documents.

   9    BY MR. WEINBERG:
  10         Q    Well, do you have any proof?

  11         A    I have cockroaches feeding on Lisa McPherson's
  12    body.  And if -- if there is none at the hotel, then where
  13    is she?

  14              THE COURT:  No, actually what you have, you
  15         have somebody that says there is a 80 percent chance
  16         they are consistent with cockroaches.  At best you
  17         have a 20 percent chance it is not consistent with
  18         cockroaches.  In your best case you have a doctor
  19         that says it is 80 percent consistent with
  20         cockroaches.  Anybody can look at that and figure
  21         there is a 20 percent chance that it isn't
  22         consistent with cockroaches.
  23              You have a whole bunch of other folks that say
  24         it is abrasion.
  25              Guess what?  With the facts as they are, you
   1         can look at it and say, well, the 20 percent chance
   2         must be the right one here because there is no
   3         cockroaches at the Ft. Harrison.

   4              THE WITNESS:  I -- there is other evidence.
   5         Dr. Goff also said, Judge, that based upon his
   6         expertise and experience, he can't think of anything
   7         else but cockroaches that would have caused those
   8         marks.

   9              THE COURT:  You know, I swear to God I don't
  10         think you read the same thing I read.
  11              He can't even say it's an insect.  He doesn't
  12         know if it's an insect or abrasion.  He has to look
  13         to the medical examiner to tell you whether it's an
  14         insect or abrasion.  The guy that says it's an
  15         insect or abrasion can't tell you he's a 100 percent
  16         sure.  He can tell you within reasonable degree of
  17         medical probability, which is 51 percent.
  18              So, guess what?  You put all this together,
  19         what do you have, a good, smart-thinking lawyer like
  20         you?  What do you have?

  21              THE WITNESS:  You have a prima facie case.

  22              THE COURT:  Well, you have -- what you have got
  23         is a good probability, unless you can establish that
  24         there are, A, roaches at the Ft. Harrison, or, B,
  25         she was at Hacienda.
   1              What you really have is probably they were
   2         abrasions.  And that is exactly what they are.  And
   3         your Dr. Goff wouldn't argue with that because he
   4         said he wouldn't even begin to say whether they are
   5         insect bites or not.

   6              THE WITNESS:  Their own entomologist, who is
   7         with a master's degree -- I can't remember his name
   8         right now but I took his deposition, Judge -- he
   9         said this -- based on the pictures he was shown by
  10         defense counsel, shows openings in the door which is
  11         right adjacent to the public street, and there is a
  12         little plant area between the door and the public
  13         street.  He said those openings in that door are
  14         sufficient enough to have roaches or other insects
  15         come into that room.  And they are attracted by
  16         what?  There is no lights on in the room and there
  17         is feces --
  18              MR. WEINBERG:  That is not true.  That is not
  19         what the testimony was.  There were lights on and
  20         people in the room.

  21              THE COURT:  Yes, you just don't really need to
  22         go there.  I have already entered that order.
  23              But I just was trying to say -- you seem to be
  24         playing right into -- I hate to tell you this, but
  25         you seem to be playing right into their hands here.
   1              It seems like maybe you haven't read their
   2         motions or terminating sanctions.  It seems as if
   3         everything you want to just continue and continue to
   4         say and do, with very little proof of it, kind of
   5         shows what you were really out to do is to damn the
   6         Church of Scientology.

   7              THE WITNESS:  That is not true at all.

   8              THE COURT:  Well, it sure does sound like it.
   9         And that is what they're saying.  And that is what
  10         they're saying in their counterclaim.  And that is
  11         what they're saying in their motion for terminating
  12         sanctions, that -- it goes beyond that.
  13              What they are saying is that is exactly what
  14         the situation is, and that you knew it, and that you
  15         and Mr. Minton were in on it together, and this is
  16         what you really had in mind to do, which was to set
  17         out to ruin, put down, do away with, cause
  18         embarrassment to, on and on, the Church and its
  19         members.
  20              And, of course, you say, well, that wasn't
  21         true.  But -- but -- you know, you do understand
  22         that is what they're saying?

  23              THE WITNESS:  I do.  This allegation, from my
  24         experience in doing personal injury/wrongful death
  25         cases for over 20 years, this allegation was an
   1         allegation that I would make against a really,
   2         really, really bad nursing home who let someone in
   3         bedsores just sit and suffer and die from the
   4         bedsore.  Someone who made a decision, "I'm not
   5         going to do anything about it.  I'm going to do the
   6         act of omission," and the person dies from a
   7         bedsore.  Or the person bleeds to death in bed in a
   8         bad, bad nursing home.
   9              I could care less about the Church of
  10         Scientology.  I didn't even know about the Church of
  11         Scientology, and I lived in Pinellas County, south
  12         county, before I ever got this case.  I could care
  13         less about the Church of Scientology.
  14              I'm not Mr. Minton's puppet.  I wasn't on his
  15         agenda.  I was doing the wrongful death case.
  16              And this allegation is above a manslaughter
  17         allegation but it's below a murder count.  It's in
  18         the between now.  And it is based on my medical
  19         doctors, not Jesse Prince.

  20              THE COURT:  All right.

The Judge is getting tired of all the incredible minutae the cult is 
bringing up. Duh! That's their thing! Well I know _I'm_ going bonkers 
reading all this crap. Luckily, I have no life. But the Judge, she's 
threatened to limit the length of time allowed. Thank you Judge! Here, 
she says it is typical for ther cult to heap stuff on:

  19         Q    Okay.  Now, you filed a motion for sanctions
  20    against Mr. Moxon in regard to the Teresa Summers
  21    deposition, didn't you?

  22         A    Yes.

  23         Q    You allege that he did not notify her, at her
  24    deposition, of the confidentiality provision -- the order
  25    that Judge Moody had entered several years before.  Correct?

   1         A    Correct.

   2         Q    You didn't notify her, either, of that at the
   3    deposition, did you?

   4         A    Correct.  I wasn't taking her deposition.  What
   5    was the date of that, by the way?

   6              THE COURT:  By the way, I don't care about
   7         that.

   8              MR. WEINBERG:  About the -- about the
   9         confidentiality provision?

  10              THE COURT:  I don't care about that, and I
  11         don't care whether he filed a motion against
  12         Mr. Moxon, and I don't care whether Mr. Moxon told
  13         her, and I don't care whether Mr. Dandar told her.

  14              MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  But what I'm going to
  15         show Mr. Dandar, if it is okay, is that --

  16              THE COURT:  If it is something that is
  17         relevant, I'm anxious to hear.  But all that, I
  18         don't care about it.  It sounds like you guys fuss
  19         and file a motion, bring things to court, typical of
  20         what is happening in this case.

The cult guy goes on, and on, and the Judge is getting annoyed. The cult 
guy hopes to go off the record. Maybe he wonders if the exchanges will 
appear on ars.

  22              THE COURT:  We're not going to go.  We're not
  23         going to take a little break.  I'm tired.  That is
  24         it.  9 o'clock.
  25              Why don't you try to finish up with him
   1         tomorrow?

   2              THE WITNESS:  Are you going to be finished
   3         tomorrow?

   4              MR. WEINBERG:  I'll do my best.

   5              THE COURT:  I'm going to start really telling
   6         you you can't go over stuff you have gone over.  I
   7         knew this was in the record.  I mean, I knew it.

   8              MR. WEINBERG:  I'm not trying to -- are we off
   9         the record?  Are --

  10              THE COURT:  It was there.  I'm not going over
  11         stuff I have been over.

  12              MR. WEINBERG:  But --

  13              THE COURT:  We'll get to that agreement
  14         tomorrow, or you're going to stop and I'm going to
  15         assume it is not important, which I kind of
  16         suggested all along it wasn't very important,
  17         because it wasn't.  But if you want to get to it,
  18         you better get to it.  We can't drag this on
  19         forever.

  20              MR. WEINBERG:  I'll get to it.  I'm not trying
  21         to drag it out.

  22              THE COURT:  Everybody is dragging it on
  23         forever.  That is both sides.  And, yes, you are
  24         dragging it on.  And you know --

  25              MR. WEINBERG:  Are we off the record now?

   1              THE COURT:  Yes.

Mike O'Connor 

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