Part 2, transcript of Stacy Young and Jesse Prince on WMNF radio

[Transcript 3 December 1998]

This show is available in RealAudio at :

pnm://audio3.wmnf.org/120398/live86.ra

(Scientology segment starts at about 9:38 of the RA file).

=================================================

HOST:  Um, Stacy, why did you leave the church?

SY:  Um, when I first got in, as I told you earlier, I was very
idealistic and I thought I was joining an organization that was gonna
be helping people.  And that I was gonna be able to have a chance to
do so.  Um, I left Atlanta, which is where I lived and where I got
into Scientology, and went out to Los Angeles, um, and quickly
discovered that the--that what I had thought I was going to be doing
was not what was happening.  In other words, I had thought I was, um,
gonna become a part of a very idealistic organization, um, whose
interest was in improving the world and helping people and things like
that; and what I found was, um, people who really were not very clear
about what they were doing, were extremely unpleasant to each other.
Um, people were being ordered to report on each other.  Um, it was a
very paranoid organization; it was very suspicious.  I was suspected
almost immediately of being an agent for the FBI, the IRS, I mean,
this level of paranoia which was--which was incredible to me, simply
because I didn’t agree with some of the things that  I saw going on
and I said so.  And I quickly learned that you weren’t supposed to say
anything critical because if you did, you got in trouble.  So my--my,
uh, commitment to this organization was--was so strong that I felt,
well, um, it must be higher up in the organization, you know, the--the
idealism and the, and where people really understand what Scientology
is all about, that must be higher up in the organization than I am.
So I, uh, made a decision that I was going to, um, get myself promoted
all the way up to the top of Scientology so that  I could really apply
Scientology the way I knew it should be applied, where it would really
help people and where I could start to straighten out all these things
that weren’t going the way I thought they should lower down.  Um, but
by the time I ended up at the top of the organization, working
directly with the top leaders, I discovered that the level of
corruption was incredible, that these people were extremely cynical
about the fact that lower-level people were believing that Scientology
was really there to help people.  They didn’t consider that that was
what they were there to do at all.  They were, uh--they were there to
take in as much money from the--from the non-profit church
organizations as they possibly could, and, uh, they were extremely
ruthless about the methods by which they went about doing that.  Um,
as I told you earlier, their treatment of people, just on a day-to-day
basis, was, um, worse than anything I had ever seen in my life.  And
so, you know, I became extremely disillusioned and I finally had to
face the fact that the organization that I had made a commitment to
was--did not exist, basically.  Um, you know, these people that are in
Clearwater, that are basically at lower levels of the organization
don’t know what Jesse and I are talking about, so they think that
we’re lying and of course they’re told that we’re lying.  Um, and I
run into this wherever I go, when I, when I--you know, because they
always have Scientologists come out to try to harass me and try to
intimidate me into, you know, not speaking out or whatever.  And I try
to explain to these Scientologists that--that the things that I’m
saying really are true.  And, um, that they really need to look at the
other side of things, you know; get on the Internet if they possibly
can and read some of the stories of people that did get up to the
higher levels and really discover the true nature.

HOST:  Do you have some of those Internet addresses that you could
refer people to?

SY:  Um, yeah.  There’s--there’s one called www.xenu.net , that’s
X-E-N-U.  There’s another one, uh, www.-- excuse me,
www.lisamcpherson.org , that’s L-I-S-A M-c-P-H-E-R-S-O-N, dot, ORG.  I
think there’s another one, www.entheta.net , which is E-N-T-H-E-T-A,
dot, NET.  Um, and, you know, I think it’s extremely important for
people to see the other side of the story, you know.  Lisa McPherson
is a woman who died as a result of very standardly applied Scientology
procedures.

HOST:  What do you--what do you mean by that?

SY:  Well, Lisa was, um, mentally unstable and in need of some
professional mental health care, and instead of receiving that, she
received Scientology, uh--she was subjected to a Scientology procedure
which is, which is the craziest thing you could ever imagine.  She,
she first was driven into a state of mind in which she really had lost
her mind.  Um, as Jesse was saying, one of the really, uh, frightening
aspects of Scientology is that they, uh--just the indoctrination
procedures--cause a person to feel that they are so, um, bad, that
they are so guilty of things, that they are responsible for everything
bad that’s happened to them, um, that, uh, you know, that--that, um,
that they’ve done very bad things and that’s why their life is not
going well in one way or another.  Um, Lisa was brought to a point
where she, uh, was suicidal.  She wished that she was dead, she was
begging them to stop giving her the auditing procedures that they were
giving her.  They were continuing to, to subject her to these
procedures until finally she cracked.  She, she lost her mind, she
didn’t know who she was.  Um, she was in terrible, terrible shape
mentally and emotionally and she should have gone to the hospital.

HOST:  Do you know of other cases where people who were members of the
church were treated as Lisa McPherson was treated?

SY:  Yes--

JP:  Yes.

SY:  Yes.  Jesse and I both were involved in, uh, what’s called the
Isolation Watch, uh, of another individual outside of Los Angeles, and
I also--and Jesse did, too--both of us knew about many other people
who were driven into basically psychotic episodes by the Scientology
procedures, and they were subjected to the exact same treatment that
Lisa was.  They were held in a room.  They were not allowed to leave.
Uh, they were guarded 24 hours a day.  They were force-fed.  They
were--they had liquids forced down their throats, and they, uh, ended
up with the same kinds of bruises and, and abrasions all over their
bodies.  And they were kept there until they were no longer possible
public relations threats to Scientology.  And that’s why Lisa was
being held that way and that’s why Lisa McPherson died.  

HOST:  I--I’ve read a quote from L. Ron Hubbard that says that,
uh,--who was the founder of the Church of Scientology--which says that
if somebody decides to leave the church, that they should be audited--

JP:  Correct.

HOST:  Would there be a connection between the McPherson case and that
kind of auditing that, uh, that L. Ron Hubbard was talking about?  We
get--I get, I bring this up because at one point, one of the, uh, one
of the reports is that Lisa McPherson called her family in Texas
before she died and said that she was planning to leave the church.

JP:  Right.  Well, what happens, you know, L. Ron Hubbard says the
only reason a person would leave a Scientology organization is because
they have done something to that organization, or they are withholding
something that they’ve done to the organization.  And they--because
they have criminal acts they want to leave.  At which point you’re
given what’s known in Scientology as a Security Check, which is a list
of questions of many different possible things that you have done.
And you--there, you’re made to hold the cans of the E-meter, and if
the E-meter reacts, you’re interrogated, um, ruthlessly and--

SY:  And relentlessly--

JP:  And relentlessly.  And I’m--you know, I’ve had it for months and
months on end--

SY:  So have I--

JP:  When I wanted to leave.

HOST:  What kind of interrogation?  What did they ask you?

JP:  Um, "Did you, did you break something?  Did you, did you steal
from the organization?  Are you withholding something about, that
you’ve done to the organization?"--

SY:  "Are you secretly working for, uh--"

JP:  "The government?--"

SY:  "The government?--"

JP:  "The FBI?--"

SY:  "The German government?"  Whoever they happen to consider to be
their current enemy.

JP:  "Have you done something to David Miscavige?" would be a
question, you know.  "Have you done something to David Miscavige?
Have you withheld something from him?  Is there something he should
know about you?"  These kind of--

HOST:  And this questioning goes on for weeks, months?

JP:  Weeks, weeks.  In my case, it went on for months.  And you are
literally asked, and you’re asked it over and over again, you know.
They’ll re-phrase the same question many different ways and it’s just
an exhaustive process--

SY:  Well, this is--

JP:  Which really jangles the, the whole mental process in critical
thinking to the point where you’re, you’re sitting there--"God, please
just let it be over" at some point.

SY:  And you know, you have to understand that I was subjected to this
kind of interrogation for months after I was sent to the prison camp
for being critical of Miscavige.  And this was done by two former
Marines, very big, very strong men.  I was locked in a room with these
two people.  One of them was, was pacing back and forth in front of me
screaming at me and the other one was sitting, uh, watching this
little E-meter, you know, with the dials on it and things like that,
to see--to see where my crimes were based on what these little meter
needles were doing and things.  Um, and it’s a terrifying--it’s a
terrifying situation to be in, particularly when you’re not sleeping
and you’re not eating, and you’re--

JP:  You’re working all day slaving for them, you know.  They’ll make
you either break rocks or doing gardening or--

SY:  You’re doing lots of hard labor and you’re being interrogated
like this.  I mean, this is, uh,--you know, I think the human mind is
not, is more fragile than sometimes people realize, you know.
It’s--it puts you into an extremely fragile state.  

HOST:  We’re talking about the Church of Scientology with two people
who rose to high levels within the church.  Our guests are Jesse
Prince and Stacy Young.  They’re in town because there’s gonna be a
candlelight vigil to remember Lisa McPherson, the Scientologist who
was, uh, who died while in church custody three years ago on December
5.  Um, I want to ask you about, uh, some of the groups that the
church is affiliated with or has set up.  There’s a group in town
called the Citizens’ Commission on Human Rights.  What’s the purpose
of that group and what’s its connection to Scientology?

SY:  Well, um, the Citizens’--Citizens’ Commission on Human Rights is
there to, uh, discredit psychiatry in any way possible.  Um, the
reason for this is because early on, in the early 1950s, Hubbard came
out with his book, "Dianetics", and he--it became a bestseller because
it made some very exciting claims about being able to cure illnesses,
um, make people have perfect minds or have perfect memories, whatever.
And so a lot of people thought this sounded great and they got into
it.  But within months it began to be clear that the claims were false
and that Dianetics really didn’t do these things that he had claimed
that it would do.  And the psychiatric community, um, came out very
critically against Dianetics, saying that it was, um, it was not
backed up by scientific research, um, and that it could be dangerous.
And at that point, Hubbard--L. Ron Hubbard, he started this thing--um,
became furious with the psychiatric community and vowed to attack them
in every way he possibly could, and psychiatry at that point became
basically, uh, as far as Hubbard was concerned, uh, the Devil.  Um,
and so one of the major things that Scientology is trying to do is
discredit psychiatry and do away with it.  Which is why they wouldn’t
allow Lisa McPherson to remain in the hospital when she needed to,
because they didn’t want her to be treated by a psychiatrist.  And,
um, so CCHR basically is there to, um, spread the word in whatever way
they can about the evils of psychiatry.

HOST:  Well, many, many times over the last few, uh, months and, in
fact, years, the CCHR has been on this radio station, uh, talking
about, uh, specifically the dangers of Ritalin and they usually go on
some of the weekend talk shows here on the station, uh, talking about
Ritalin as a way to, uh, hold down the black populations, to, uh, drug
the black kids in our society--

SY:  Well, you know, there’s--there’s two aspects of that and I think
Jesse already addressed the aspect of the black population, but before
that, I think it’s important to know that, um, I was there when this
Ritalin campaign idea was thought up.  It’s a public relations
campaign.  Um--

HOST:  Is it based on any science?  You know--

SY:  No; it’s not based on any science.  Um, it’s based on, uh,
several, um, cases in which a child was perhaps put on Ritalin
incorrectly or perhaps didn’t do well as a result of being on Ritalin.
Um, but it doesn’t take into account the thousands and thousands of
other children that have done well on the drug or any other medical
studies that have been done, um, you know, and written up in medical
journals or whatever.  Um, you know, this Ritalin campaign was devised
as a way to get media and, uh, gain allies for the Church of
Scientology.  And it’s that simple; that’s what it was done for.  It’s
not for the purpose of helping the children who are on Ritalin; it has
nothing to do with that.  Although I assure you that the people who
are in CCHR fervently consider that that is what they’re trying to do.
The leadership of Scientology has them doing this campaign purely for
the public relations value for Scientology.

JP:  You know, and it’s also ironic that they would target the
African-American community because the current leader of Scientology,
David Miscavige, is a racist, a racist in extremis, as well as his
South African companion, Norman Starkey.  I was the only
African-American that I know of that ever achieved a high position
within Scientology.  And even then, I was continually subjected to
racial slurs by David Miscavige and, um, Norman Starkey to the point
where we nearly came to blows about it.

HOST:  What kind of racial slurs?

JP:  "Nigger", "dumb nigger", this kind of--constantly.  L. Ron
Hubbard himself is on tape giving lectures speaking about how stupid,
uh, African-Americans are, you know, and how they can’t be cleared and
the best thing to do is to just put ‘em all on a barge and dump ‘em in
the middle of the water, just kill them, you know, genocide, as well
as, you know, other--the Arabs, and he found these people to be quite
useless.  So that they would, you know, put on the facade of that they
even care about these people, to me, is just more of the deep
deception, just another example of the deep deception and the lengths
that they will go to to accomplish their purs--their purpose.  They
don’t care anything about African-American people.  

HOST:  What would you say to African-American groups in this town that
are working right now with the Citizens’ Commission on Human Rights
and the Church of Scientology?

JP:  Be very careful because they do not care about you.  If, if
it’s--as long as they can get press about their actions because, you
know, these poor people, whatever--that is the entirety of their
intent.  They don’t care about those people at all.  

HOST:  I gotta ask you about this because it’s the most public thing
about the Church of Scientology, and that is that many well-known
actors and musicians--not many, but a few well-known actors and
musicians--are members of the Church of Scientology and seem to
function pretty well.  Tom Cruise is one, and John Travolta and Chick
Corea.  They seem to be loyal to the church.  Anne Archer, an actress.
Why do--what role do these actors and musicians play in the church and
why don’t the--these people seem to, seem to view the church the same
way that you do?

JP:  Well, I can assure you that each and every one of them did at a
point in time.  The reason being is for the exact reason that I
suffered there.  They go in, into their counseling, they tell them
their deepest dark secrets, and then the moment that they no longer
want any association or want to exercise free will, they bring these
things up and threaten to expose them.  I know that this has happened
with John Travolta.  I--I can tell you horror stories about, um--

HOST:  How do you know it happened with John Travolta?  

JP:  Because I was personally responsible for making sure that he got
counseling on a continuing basis long after he didn’t want it any
more.  I literally sent people from this project here on the Fort
Harrison to where he lived in Florida continuously so that he could be
under control basically.  And it’s part of a policy that L. Ron
Hubbard wrote, to get celebrities in Scientology and use them as
inroads into society.  So on the one hand, they get this one
threatening treatment; but then on the other hand, like in Tom
Cruise’s case, they will go through incredible lengths to appease
these people and satisfy them to the point where they actually cr--Tom
Cruise had a, a fantasy prior to marrying Nicole Kidman that he would
just love to have run through a meadow of tall grass and flowers, you
know, and that was this fantasy of his.  Well, guess what?  The
prison--the Scientology prison--worked day and night to cultivate an
entire meadow, get all the rocks, you know, clean it out, plant grass,
plant flowers till it got to a certain height.  And then Tom Cruise
was invited out to the facility so that him and Nicole Kidman could
run through the meadow.  Well, little do they know they were running
on the blood and sweat of people that had their wills decimated to the
point where they were nearly robotic.  I wonder how they feel about
that?

HOST:  Have there been other deaths, do you think, within the Church
of Scientology, besides that of Lisa McPherson?

SY:  I know there have been--

JP:  Oh, yes--

SY:  A very dear friend of mine named Roxanne Friend died, um,
recently.  Um, very--as far as I’m concerned, it was very clearly a
result of the Scientology procedures that were--that she was subjected
to.  She, um, had an experience pretty similar to Lisa McPherson’s
which she lived through.  But later it was discovered that she had
cancer which Scientology had, um, forbidden her to have treated
medically because they wanted her to treat it with auditing.  And by
the time she was able to escape from her guards--they were keeping her
in Clearwater in an apartment--um, and get up to her parents and get
to a doctor, it was too late and the cancer was inoperable.  

HOST:  Does Scientology make the claim that auditing can cure
diseases?  

SY:  Scientology doesn’t make the claim publicly because that would be
practicing medicine without a license.  But they certainly claim that
privately and they certainly tell their parishioners that if there is
anything wrong with them physically, they need auditing to correct it.


HOST:  A few years ago--and Jesse, you alluded to this, that, uh, in
the late 1970s and early 1980s, it was pretty well known that
Scientology was at war with the government; it had hired people to
infiltrate the government and all that--

JP:  Right--

HOST:  It--it’s now often said by church leaders that those days are
behind them, that the church has reformed itself, it does--it no
longer engages in lawbreaking and the people that were involved in the
lawbreaking were rogues, and that there are not, uh, uh--I read one
report several years ago that, that federal judges were tailed by
members of the Church of Scientology so that, uh, the church could get
the goods on the judges and, and--and blackmail them so that they
would come out with the right opinion.  But those days, according to
church officials, are behind them.  

JP:  No, that’s--that’s very far from the truth.  As a matter of fact,
one thing that keeps, uh, the hierarchy of Scientology in such a
vicious state is that you are literally required to do criminal acts,
be involved in criminal acts--I myself have been involved in, in, uh,
electronic bugging, ordered to do electronic bugging, destroying court
evidence that has been asked for by the courts, to--you know, and then
you’re made to do this and you make other people do it ; therefore,
we’re all culpable, so we have to stay here and we have to do this
because, you know, we’re doing this, but we’re getting--you know,
we’re getting paid, we--the hierarchy of Scientology is paid much
better than, you know, these guys breaking rocks and making five bucks
a week.  And so there’s this agreement that, OK, well, we’re all doing
these criminal things.  And, and I was doing this up until 1987.
So--and, and that’s 10 years after that 1977 raid when the FBI went in
and discovered, "Hey, look what they do".  So 10 years later, we’re
doing the exact same things.  People are being beat up, people are
being bugged, people have false reports, people are getting fired from
their, from their jobs because private investigators they’ve hired are
sent in to give disinformation or embarrassing--

SY:  People are being harassed relentlessly--

JP:  Relentlessly, you know, and as I said--as I sit here now, private
investigators are calling my family telling them lies, masquerading as
the police, saying, "We’re the police.  He’s--you know, he jumped
bail", as we sit here.  So, no, nothing’s changed.

HOST:  Uh, Stacy, have you been harassed?

SY:  Um, I’ve been harassed since 1993 when I first decided to speak
out publicly.  My husband and I both have been harassed terribly.  Um,
and just this morning I was told that one of the cats in our cat
sanctuary has been poisoned, and, um, I’m hoping that she’s gonna be
OK, but I--a year ago--

HOST:  What makes you think Scientology was involved in that?  

SY:  Um, because of the pattern of harassment that has, um, happened
up until this point.  Um, Scientology knows that, um, these animals
are very important to me, and they go after whatever is important to a
critic to try and back them off.  A year ago--

JP:  They picket your house, too.

SY:  They picket my house--

JP:  Constantly--

SY:  Constantly.  They follow me everywhere I go.  They’re waiting for
me at my gate when I get off of an airplane.  I have no idea how they
know where I am.  The other morning when I was leaving to go see my
family at Thanksgiving, they were waiting on the other side of Puget
Sound when I got off the ferry to picket and pass out leaflets of
unbelievable character assassination about me.

HOST:  What do you think the ultimate goal of the Church of
Scientology is? 

JP:  Make money, make more money; that’s what L. Ron Hubbard says.

SY:  Well, and to take over, uh, you know.  Their stated purpose is to
clear the planet, quote-unquote.  What that means is for every single
person in the world to become a Scientologist.  And that is what they
are working on 24 hours a day.  With their recruitment, with their
slick public image, with their--with all the different front groups
that they have that are calculated to get people into Scientology
before they realize what they’re getting into.  All of this is
calculated to bring in more and more members of the Church of
Scientology so that ultimately Scientology will be able to control
entire populations.  

HOST:  L. Ron Hubbard’s former deputy-at-sea, a woman whose name I
can’t recall right now, was quoted one time as saying that Hubbard’s
entire objective was to find a place that Hubbard could eventually
turn into his own kingdom--

SY:  That’s Hana Whitfield--

HOST:  With his own government, his own passports, his own monetary
system, that he would be the benign dictator of.  

SY:  Yes, there’s a whole tape called "International City" in which he
lays out the plan for piloting, uh, the first Scientology government.
And once it’s--once they’ve sort of ironed out the bugs in one city,
they’ll start exporting it to other cities and they’ll start taking
over.

HOST:  So they have a--

SY:  So that’s what they want to do in Clearwater, it’s very clear--

HOST:  Is that their plan for Clearwater?

JP:  Yes--

SY:  Of course.  Of course it is.

JP:  So they have a very slick image, they seem very nice, very
personable.  But, you know, once a person commented to me that lives
in Clearwater that you can almost instantly recognize a Scientologist,
be--especially a Sea Org member--because  when they’re not at the Fort
Harrison and they’re just within society, they have the saddest look.
They’re gaunt; they have dark circles under their eyes--

SY:  They’re exhausted [laughing]--

JP:  And they’re exhausted.

HOST:  Well, I don’t think there’s much more we can say right now.
Uh, Stacy Young and Jesse Prince, thanks a lot for coming down.  There
is gonna be a candlelight vigil to remember Lisa McPherson.  Where’s
that vigil gonna take place?  I understand that you’re having trouble
finding sidewalk space for this vigil.

SY:  Well, it was actually, uh, just recently resolved, um, and there
will be, um--there will actually be a protest, um, in front of the
Fort Harrison, um, between Cord and Pierce, on, this coming Saturday,
December 5, between 3 and 6 p.m., um, and then Sunday, December 6,
between 3 and 6 p.m. there will be another protest.  Saturday,
December 5, at 7 p.m. is when the candlelight vigil for Lisa McPherson
is gonna be held, and it’ll be outside the Peace Memorial Presbyterian
Church at South Fort Harrison and Pierce.  

HOST:  All right.  Um, and again, those--those web sites for people
that want to find out more about the Church of Scientology?  

SY:  Um, one of them is www.lisamcpherson.org , that’s L-I-S-A
M-c-P-H-E-R-S-O-N, and then another one is www.xenu.net , X-E-N-U.
And another one is, uh, www.entheta.net , E-N-T-H-E-T-A.  

HOST:  All right.  There’s a whole lot more that I’d like to talk
about, but we don’t have time; we’re out of time.  Thank you very much
for coming down.  Jesse Prince and Stacy Young, thank you very much,
it’s good having you--

JP:  Thanks for having us.

HOST:  I’m Rob Lorei; thanks for listening.  This is 88.5 FM, WMNF,
Tampa-St. Petersburg.  If you would like to comment about today’s
show, you can call us at 238-8001 and leave a message on extension 18;
that’s 238-8001, leave a message on extension 18.

===============================================

END

===============================================





Sue, SP4(:), listed on the Scieno Sitter list 5 times!
--
http://www.primenet.com/~xenubat

"It will take a *long* time to find another enemy
with the combination of evil and incompetence
you see in Scientology."--Keith Henson