------------------------------------------------------------------- F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. (Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network, Incorporated) a non-profit computer bulletin board and electronic library 601 16th St. #C-217 Golden, Colorado 80401 USA BBS 303 530-1942 FAX 303 530-2950 Office 303 473-0111 This document is part of an electronic lending library and preservational electronic archive. F.A.C.T.Net does not sell documents, it only lends them according to the terms of your library cardholder agreement with F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. ===================================================================== 2348 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 ------------------------------ 5 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY ) 6 INTERNATIONAL, a California ) 7 non-profit religious ) 8 organization, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 vs. )No. 93-3843-HLH(Tx) 11 STEVEN FISHMAN and UWE GEERTZ,)VOLUME XIV 12 Defendants. ) 13 ------------------------------ 14 15 Continued deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF, 16 at 221 North Figueroa Street, Suite 1200, 17 Los Angeles, California, commencing at 18 10:26 A.M., Thursday, August 12, 1993, 19 before Paulette M. Griffin, CSR No. 2499 20 and Lee Brenneman, CSR No. 5222. 21 22 23 24 25 PAGES 2348-2550 2349 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 5 BOWLES & MOXON 6 BY: TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ. 7 6255 Sunset Boulevard 8 Suite 2000 9 Hollywood, California 90028 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT UWE GEERTZ: 12 13 LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD 14 BY: GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 15 221 North Figueroa Street 16 Suite 1200 17 Los Angeles, California 90012 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 21 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 22 BOB BICHLER 23 24 25 2350 1 GARRY L. SCARFF, 2 having been previously duly sworn, testified 3 further as follows: 4 5 VIDEO OPERATOR: Good morning. We are back 6 on the record. Today is August 12th, 1993. The 7 time is 10:26 A.M. beginning of Tape 1, Volume 8 XIII in the continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 9 10 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Scarff. 13 A. Morning. 14 MR. BOWLES: Good morning Mr. Calhoun. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Morning. 16 MR. BOWLES: Mr. Calhoun, I wanted to make 17 something clear before we started and that is this 18 is your voluntary witness. He is going to have to 19 be restrained or this deposition is going to be 20 stricken by the magistrate judge. 21 Your L.A.P.D. armed guard has 22 represented he is only here to keep the peace 23 notably did nothing while Mr. Scarff stood, loomed 24 yesterday, on the last day of the depo, threw and 25 struck me with the deposition transcript, taunted, 2351 1 swore, and otherwise invoked obscenities to avoid 2 admitting his clear perjury on this record. So 3 any consent I have given to that man being out 4 there to protect the peace is withdrawn as it's 5 clearly he is not here to protect the peace but 6 only to serve your ends on this theater that's 7 called a deposition. 8 The deposition was rehearsed. 9 Mr. Scarff is here with a script. Your firm has 10 staged this deposition. There is an armed 11 bodyguard here on the pretense of threats. He is 12 not only a kidnapper, a thief and a perjurer, he 13 is an actor. Not only an actor, he is an actor 14 here with a mission which is to destroy anything 15 in his path. 16 So at this point we are going to 17 continue with cross. We have a right to ask 18 questions and have answers to those questions. 19 And you and your firm have a great responsibility 20 for controlling this deposition. 21 Now, Mr. Berry has on record already 22 taken him aside and having him come back and 23 apologize after breaks on certain items. So I 24 would advise you that if he is getting out of hand 25 that you take the initiative to control this 2352 1 deposition. I noted the last time when he was 2 throwing things and so forth you did nothing to 3 control the situation. So that's what I have to 4 say. 5 THE WITNESS: How long did it take you to 6 write that out? 7 MR. CALHOUN: Before we go on, there has 8 been a gross mischaracterization of events by 9 Mr. Bowles. Perhaps unintentionally by you. 10 Among other things, the guard is not in the 11 deposition room at your insistence, not ours. We 12 prefer to have him in this room to assist in 13 making sure that things were maintained and proper 14 decorum, but it was your and your client's 15 insistence that he be not inside the deposition 16 room. We would be perfectly happy to have the 17 guard in this room as you say to assist in 18 maintaining decorum. 19 I would note for the record that you 20 have been very loose in observing normal protocol 21 for depositions. You know as well as I that 22 normal practice is that documents are not handed 23 back and forth between examining counsel and a 24 witness. That's a breach of protocol and a breach 25 of etiquette. And if that resulted in documents 2353 1 being passed back and forth in an overly forceful 2 manner from your perception, it's a situation 3 which you have in fact created. 4 I would suggest that if you are 5 concerned about that, you observe something more 6 along the lines of normal protocol, hand documents 7 from counsel to counsel, counsel can hand them to 8 witnesses and the reverse, from the witness to 9 counsel to counsel. 10 MR. BOWLES: That's fine. Do you want to 11 play the role of handing him papers, I would be 12 happy to do that. I just didn't think you were 13 representing him. 14 MR. CALHOUN: I am not going to be 15 representing the witness. But I certainly would, 16 if it will alleviate your concerns. I will be 17 happy to perform that function which is typically 18 performed by counsel and typically observed by 19 counsel in a deposition room. 20 MR. BOWLES: He is not represented by 21 counsel but if you want to help out, that's fine. 22 MR. CALHOUN: And if you would like to have 23 the assistance of the security in this deposition 24 room we would be more than pleased to have that 25 from him. 2354 1 MR. BOWLES: No, the security is off the 2 floor as far as we are concerned, not peering 3 through the window in a show to convert this 4 deposition into some kind of circus. And he 5 should be off the floor. You have violated the 6 stipulation on that point. And that's something 7 pending before the court. 8 MR. CALHOUN: Then I find your remarks 9 totally disingenuous inasmuch as you have accused 10 my office of not providing adequate security for 11 you and you have continued to refuse to permit 12 security to be present in this room. 13 MR. BOWLES: There is no security needed 14 when it's only one sided. So I am not going to 15 take security that's here as a threat and as a 16 part of a circus and create some kind of an 17 illusion that Mr. Scarff, is under some kind of 18 danger. Mr. Scarff the record will speak for 19 itself and why don't we just get on with the 20 record and the deposition. 21 Q. I want to first of all -- review some 22 testimony with you that we had earlier this week. 23 Let's go to Page 1886 of the 24 transcript and taking up Mr. Calhoun's suggestion, 25 Mr. Calhoun, if you could pass him this, I would 2355 1 like him to read from Page 1886 and let me just 2 hand this to him and I will give you the line 3 numbers. 4 Mr. Scarff, if you could read from 5 Page 1896, Line 22 to 1887, Line 2, please. 6 MR. CALHOUN: I believe you misspoke, 7 Counsel. You said 1896. And you gave me 1886. 8 MR. BOWLES: I believe it's 1886, yes, sir. 9 Thank you. 10 THE WITNESS: What line? 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Line 22, sir. 13 A. To what line? 14 Q. To Line 2 of the following page. 15 A. Okay. 16 " Q. Now your testimony 17 on direct was completely 18 truthful; is that right? 19 "A. That is correct to 20 the best of my recollection. 21 "Q. It was accurate in 22 every respect? 23 "A. To the best of my 24 recollection, yes." 25 Q. Thank you. Now on Page 1971, 2356 1 starting to read from Line 2 through Line 5, 2 please. 3 "Q. And again, just to 4 make sure, in all of your direct 5 testimony in this deposition 6 it's your testimony now that you 7 have told the truth; is that 8 correct? 9 "A. That's correct." 10 Q. So in reading those two excerpts, 11 Mr. Scarff, is there anything that was 12 mistranscribed? 13 MR. CALHOUN: I would note again for the 14 record the objection that's stated that the second 15 question was asked and answered. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. Is there anything that's 18 mistranscribed in either of those excerpts, Mr. 19 Scarff? 20 A. Not that I can recall, no. 21 Q. So it's still your testimony you told 22 the truth on direct exam? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. Ever used any aliases, Mr. Scarff? 25 A. I'm sorry? 2357 1 Q. Ever used any aliases? 2 A. In what regard? What do you mean 3 aliases? 4 Q. In your life. Have you used any 5 names that weren't your own to identify yourself? 6 A. Yes, I have. 7 Q. Which names? 8 A. It's not an alias, Mr. Bowles. I use 9 the name Lynn Garrett which was the name given to 10 me by my theatrical agent. Also I have used the 11 name Garry Scott because a lot of people cannot 12 pronounce or spell Scarff and Scott is a lot 13 easier. 14 Q. Any others? 15 A. Not that I can recall, no. 16 Q. Have you used the name Lynn Garrett 17 in any other context except for acting? 18 A. Yes. My telephone bill was under the 19 name of Lynn Garrett. And I think that's the only 20 thing that I have used under Lynn Garrett. 21 Q. How about the name of Scott? How 22 have you used that name? 23 A. When people want to know my last name 24 in anything other than a legal situation, I have 25 used the name Scott simply because Scarff people 2358 1 have a hard time pronouncing and people have a 2 hard time writing it so I have used the name Scott 3 which is just easier for people to pronounce. And 4 write. 5 Q. And what context has that been in? 6 A. Just in very informal contexts that I 7 can recall. 8 Q. You say it's not a legal context? 9 A. I don't recall my name appearing on 10 any type of legal transcript nor my going to court 11 using the name of Scott. 12 Q. How long have you been using the name 13 Scott? 14 A. Excuse me? 15 Q. How long have you been using that 16 name? 17 A. It's not a matter of using the name 18 Scott, Mr. Bowles. It's simply when people had a 19 problem with the name Scarff, I said, "Just go 20 ahead and use Scott." It's much easier. 21 Q. So the question is how long have you 22 been using that name? 23 A. I don't recall. It could be five 24 years. It could be ten years. It wasn't -- 25 anything -- ouch -- just in the context of someone 2359 1 not being able to spell my name correctly I used 2 the name Scott, but it didn't defer away from what 3 the purpose was. It was just to make it easier 4 for people. 5 Q. Has anybody asked you your name and 6 you have given them -- have you lied to them? 7 A. No. Not at all. 8 Q. It's not a lie using the name Scott? 9 A. No. I don't think it's a lie, 10 Mr. Bowles. 11 Q. It's not untruthful? 12 A. No. Not at all. 13 Mr. Bowles, if I was to spell your 14 name B O L E S constantly, I don't think you would 15 appreciate that very much and you would probably 16 simply use that to tell someone that's okay. Go 17 ahead and spell it as you wish. It doesn't take 18 away from the meaning or the purpose. 19 Q. Any other aliases? 20 A. Not that I can recall. 21 Q. Have you used any other Social 22 Security numbers other than the one you have given 23 earlier in this deposition? 24 A. Not that I can recall. 25 Q. Have you ever used disguises? 2360 1 A. For what? 2 Q. For any purpose. 3 A. Yes. On Halloween I have worn 4 disguises. 5 Q. Other than costume parties and 6 Halloween have you used disguises? 7 A. No. Not that I can recall. 8 Q. Now, yesterday you claimed to be ill; 9 is that right? 10 A. Sir, I didn't claim to be ill. I was 11 ill and I continue to be ill. 12 Q. And you have sought doctor's 13 assistance for that? 14 A. No, sir, I didn't. As you well know 15 and as it's on record already, I don't have a 16 job. I don't have the financial ability to see a 17 doctor. Of course if you would like to pay for 18 it, I will be happy to see one. If it's up to you 19 that I see a doctor, if you agree to pay for it, I 20 will go see one. As long as it's an independent 21 physician and not one of your church doctors. 22 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 23 Mr. Scarff what medication are you 24 taking? 25 A. Right now I am taking Xantac, which 2361 1 is for my stomach. It's ulcer medication. I am 2 also taking Nuprin. 3 Q. So the Xantac is a medication for 4 ulcers; is that correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. And you are claiming that this has a 7 diuretic effect and makes you need to go to the 8 bathroom every 45 minutes; is that correct? 9 A. No, sir. I am saying given the 10 amount of water that I have been drinking in 11 trying to keep it suppressed that I have had to go 12 to the bathroom quite a bit. 13 Q. It's not a side effect of the drug? 14 A. I don't know if it is or not. Again, 15 talk to a doctor. You are the lawyer. Talk to a 16 professional doctor. It's not my business, I 17 don't know. 18 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 19 Let's talk about the Christofferson 20 trial for a while. You were there, I guess; is 21 that correct? 22 A. Yes, I was. 23 Q. You directed to that on direct 24 examination? 25 A. Yes, I was. 2362 1 Q. How long did that last? 2 A. I don't recall specifically. It was 3 several weeks. The time that I was there was 4 probably a week, week and a half. 5 Q. What month? 6 A. I recall April of 1985. 7 Q. Was there a particular event that 8 brought you downtown to participate in the trial? 9 A. Yeah. It was the fact that it was 10 national news and I was very interested in seeing 11 how it was going to go. Of course there were 12 quite a few members from Church of Scientology 13 there as well, coming in and watching the trial 14 proceedings as well. These weren't individuals 15 directly tied to the trial itself. These happened 16 to be members of the church that were interested 17 like any member of the public was interested in 18 seeing what was happening with this trial. 19 Because as you are well aware, Mr. Bowles, it was 20 very big news around the country. 21 Q. This was after the verdict then? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. After the verdict or before? 24 A. No. This was before the verdict. 25 Q. Before. Only before? 2363 1 A. Sir, why would you go to a trial 2 after a verdict is announced in the trial? That 3 doesn't make a lot of sense. You are not making 4 sense here, sir. 5 Q. Did you attend any courtroom 6 proceedings after the verdict was rendered? 7 A. After the trial was announced, after 8 Julie Christofferson was awarded, I believe it was 9 42 million or maybe $39 million, no, I didn't 10 attend any proceeding after that. And I never 11 have claimed to do that. 12 Q. Did you participate in any Church of 13 Scientology activities after the verdict was 14 rendered? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. In connection with that trial? 17 A. If you want to characterize it as in 18 connection with that trial, so be it. 19 Q. I am referring as I think you 20 understand to the so-called crusade that occurred 21 after the trial. You understand that? 22 A. Sir, it wasn't a so-called crusade. 23 I mean, it's substantial evidence to show a 24 crusade did occur and that members of your church 25 did come in from all around the world to attend 2364 1 it. When you say so-called -- 2 Q. That's what I am referring to? Do 3 you understand that? 4 A. Do we have to pull out the newspaper 5 articles to show it wasn't a so-called crusade? 6 Q. Did you read the newspapers during 7 that time? 8 A. Excuse me? 9 Q. Did you read the newspapers during 10 that time? 11 A. Yes. I read the newspapers during 12 that time and I was wondering whether the stuff 13 that I appeared at in Lownsdale Park across from 14 the courthouse was showing up in the media because 15 I attended the crusade. 16 Q. So you attended activities in 17 connection with the crusade? 18 A. Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I also 19 heard that Al Jarreau was coming into town. Edgar 20 Winters was coming into town, and frankly, I like 21 the two performers and I wanted to see them. 22 Q. Did you meet any of the celebrities 23 that came into town? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Who? 2365 1 A. I sat and met John Travolta in the 2 Hilton Hotel. It was, "Hello. How are you?" 3 That was it. 4 Q. What time of day was that? 5 A. It was around, that I can recall, 6 11:00, probably 11:00 in the morning. It even 7 could have been early afternoon. 8 Q. What part of the hotel? 9 A. What part of the hotel? 10 In the lobby area of the hotel. 11 There is a lobby restaurant, I forgot the name of 12 it, but it was in the lobby area of the hotel 13 which would have been on the ground level of Sixth 14 Avenue. 15 Q. You are sure it was John Travolta? 16 A. Mr. Bowles, please. 17 Q. Are you sure it was John Travolta? 18 Yes or no? 19 A. Yes. I knew it was John Travolta. 20 John Travolta was a star at that time and anyone 21 that knew and saw John Travolta in his movies 22 could not mistake that it was not John Travolta 23 unless, of course, you have someone that you use 24 to look like John Travolta that isn't, but, yes, 25 it was John Travolta. In fact, your church even 2366 1 announced it was John Travolta. It was expected 2 he was coming into town. That was big news. Your 3 church talked about it. 4 Q. So it was daylight? 5 A. Excuse me? 6 Q. It was daylight when this occurred; 7 is that right? 8 A. Yes, it was daylight. 9 Q. What time does the sun usually go 10 down in Portland in the month of April? 11 A. Talk to a meteorologist. I can't 12 give you that. I don't know. In summertime? I 13 would say it usually goes down like 8:00 at 14 night. I don't know for sure. Talk to a 15 meteorologist. You are asking me questions that I 16 am not a professional in. 17 Q. Okay. What month did you see John 18 Travolta at the Hilton Hotel? 19 A. I believe it was June of '85. 20 Q. That's your best recollection? 21 A. Yeah, it is. 22 Q. What time does the sun come up in 23 June in Portland, approximately? 24 A. Well, since the sun is already up by 25 the time that I wake up, I don't know. Talk to a 2367 1 meteorologist. He would know. 2 Q. Now, did you talk with any lawyers 3 for the Church of Scientology during this period 4 of time? 5 A. Not specifically, no. 6 Q. Did you witness any communication 7 between church lawyers and any other person during 8 this trial? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. Describe that to me, please. 11 A. Outside the courthouse I saw 12 Mr. Cooley talking with different individuals. 13 There was also an attorney that was working with 14 Mr. Cooley whose name I do not recall. And he was 15 talking to different individuals. And, of course, 16 Heber Jentzsch was there at one time and he was 17 talking to individuals. I don't know if Heber is 18 a lawyer or not. But I witnessed that. But 19 again, I wasn't specifically interested in 20 anything they had to say so if you were to ask me 21 what they said, I couldn't tell you. Of course, 22 at that time there were a lot of media people 23 around too. 24 Q. Did you ever see John Travolta 25 talking to Mr. Cooley? 2368 1 A. At the Hilton Hotel. 2 Q. On the same occasion? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who else -- was he like at the same 5 table as -- 6 A. He was sitting down, yes. 7 Q. Mr. Travolta and Mr. Cooley were at 8 the same table? 9 A. No, sir. I said on record already 10 Mr. Cooley was sitting down and he was sitting 11 with another lawyer and Travolta walked in with 12 several other individuals into the Hilton Hotel. 13 I remember -- never mind. 14 Q. What do you remember? 15 A. I remember Travolta walking in and I 16 remember a lot of people laughed about the way 17 that he was dressed because they commented that 18 Travolta looked like he had just gotten up out of 19 bed, not bothered to take care of himself before 20 he came to the Hilton Hotel because he was not 21 clean-shaven and his hair was in a mess. And just 22 looked like he didn't bother to take a shower 23 before he came into the Hilton Hotel. 24 Q. From which direction did he come into 25 the hotel? 2369 1 A. He came in from the Broadway side of 2 the hotel, which would be the north side. No, I'm 3 sorry. North, south -- the western side of the 4 hotel, which is Broadway Street. 5 Q. How many people did he come in with? 6 A. Three people behind him. 7 Q. Did you recognize any of them? 8 A. No, sir, I did not. 9 Q. How were they dressed? 10 A. I don't recall how they were 11 dressed. They were dressed casually. There were 12 no suits or ties or anything. They were casually 13 dressed. 14 Q. And you saw him enter the hotel from 15 the Broadway side; is that right? 16 A. They came in from the direction, sir, 17 of the Broadway side. That's the direction you 18 asked me and I said it. 19 Q. When did you first spy them or see 20 them, sorry. 21 A. When did I first spy them, sir? 22 Q. Let me rephrase the question. 23 A. Please. 24 Q. When did you first see them in the 25 hotel? 2370 1 A. I saw them walking towards the table 2 where John Carmichael and I were standing at 3 around 11:00, it could have been early afternoon 4 as I have said. I don't recall. It wasn't a big 5 event to me. John Travolta was not someone that I 6 admired so it was no big event to me. 7 Q. This was the event where he came and 8 got lots of press coverage. Did the press 9 conference and so forth? 10 A. I don't recall whether he got a lot 11 of press coverage. I recall there was one article 12 in the Oregonian that had his picture and he said 13 something in the Oregonian, but I don't recall if 14 he got a lot of press coverage or not. 15 In fact, more of the press coverage 16 was done on the protest that the church did around 17 the courthouse with some of the celebrities that 18 came in to do that. And I am speaking 19 specifically of Sylvester Stallone's brother, 20 whose name I don't remember. 21 Q. So this all happened in the Hilton 22 lobby? 23 A. The Hilton Hotel lobby, sir. 24 Q. I want you to draw me a diagram, and 25 we will do this, we will make this red line here 2371 1 Broadway, okay. That's the street. Just put that 2 down here. This will be Broadway. Let's call 3 this over here Salmon. This over here will be 4 Sixth Avenue. With me so far? 5 A. Uh-huh. I know it. 6 Q. So I want you to draw me a diagram of 7 the lobby area, where you were standing when you 8 saw John Travolta come in. 9 A. Sure. 10 Mr. Travolta was walking down this 11 direction here. There were three individuals 12 behind him. In this area there is a restaurant 13 over here. And you have two routes to get to 14 Broadway. There is a north side. There is a 15 south side. Sorry. This would be north. This 16 would be south. Here is the elevators that take 17 you up to the rooms. In this area here there is 18 like an outside where they have buffets and stuff 19 like that. 20 Q. Would you mind, please -- 21 A. And here is a table. If I recall 22 Cooley was here. There was another attorney here 23 whose name I don't remember. It was co-counsel. 24 And then Heber Jentzsch. And they were walking in 25 this direction. 2372 1 Q. Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: You want to look at it, sir? 3 MR. CALHOUN: C, is that for Cooley? 4 THE WITNESS: C is Cooley. The zero with an 5 X is co-counsel whose name I don't remember. And 6 Heber Jentzsch. 7 MR. CALHOUN: What does HJ mean? 8 THE WITNESS: Heber Jentzsch. 9 MR. CALHOUN: What does T mean? 10 THE WITNESS: Travolta. And the three 11 circles behind him are the individuals following 12 him. The S is south. North. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. So when you designated elevator here, 15 would you mind putting an E there so that can be 16 reflected on the record. 17 A. Sure. This is the hallway here. And 18 these two right here are the hall doors. 19 Q. So where were you standing, Mr. 20 Scarff, when you saw Mr. Travolta? 21 A. Right here. 22 Q. Can you put your initials there, 23 please? 24 A. Uh-huh. 25 Q. And JC would stand for John 2373 1 Carmichael? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. Where is the front desk in this 4 diagram? 5 A. Right here. There is a hallway 6 here. Front desk is right here. 7 Q. Okay. Did you hear anybody call out 8 "Hi, "Mr. Travolta" or "Hi, John" or anything like 9 that to identify him? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you hear him identify himself as 12 Mr. Travolta? 13 A. No. But when he walked up to the 14 table, Mr. Cooley stood up and shook his hand and 15 said, "Hello, John." 16 Q. Was this at a lunch break for the 17 trial or do you know? 18 A. This was around -- I would assume it 19 would be a lunch break since it happened between 20 11:00 and 1:00 that day, yes. 21 Q. And what were you doing in the lobby 22 there? 23 A. John Carmichael, I just simply walked 24 over with him to the Hilton Hotel. 25 Q. Okay. There was no particular 2374 1 reason? 2 A. Well, no. He told me that he knew 3 that Travolta was in town and Travolta was going 4 to meet with the attorneys in the case. And I 5 told him that I just wanted to see him. Because I 6 had never seen him before. And that's why I did. 7 That's it. 8 Q. Was there press there? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Did you attend any press 11 conferences -- 12 A. No, sir, I didn't. 13 Q. -- that had John Travolta involved? 14 A. Well, I know a press conference did 15 happen because the Oregonian had a picture of 16 him. And to my recollection there was a press 17 conference but I was not there. 18 Q. Do you know how Mr. Travolta got to 19 Portland? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. How is that? 22 A. He flew in his own jet up here from 23 California. I believe he was living in Santa 24 Barbara at the time. He had his own jet and he 25 flew it up himself, at least that's what was 2375 1 reported. 2 Q. How did he return? 3 A. I believe he flew his own jet back. 4 Q. How did you know that? 5 A. It's what I seem to recall in the 6 newspaper. If I am wrong, I am wrong. But it's 7 my understanding that he piloted his own jet when 8 he lived in Santa Barbara. And that's how he came 9 up. And I seem to recall that's how he went 10 back. But I could be wrong. 11 Q. You read that newspaper account at 12 the time? 13 A. Not only newspaper account but John 14 Carmichael told me the fact that John Travolta 15 knew how to pilot a jet and he had his own jet, 16 and we were talking about how it would be nice to 17 simply fly our own jet around the country. 18 Q. Do you recall any inaccuracies in 19 that article about his visit that you personally 20 witnessed? 21 A. No, sir. Because, Mr. Bowles, I 22 don't even recall the content. Maybe if you have 23 a copy of the article. 24 Q. Sure. Let's take a look at it. 25 What exhibit number are we on? 2376 1 MR. CALHOUN: I would like to have that 2 exhibit marked as 193, I believe. 3 MR. BOWLES: I believe that's in order. 193 4 will be the diagram. 5 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 193 6 was marked for identification and is 7 bound separately.) 8 MR. BOWLES: That's for you and pass that to 9 the witness. We will make this as 194. 10 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 194 11 was marked for identification and is 12 bound separately.) 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Mr. Scarff, go ahead and read that 15 article. 16 What did you just read there, 17 Mr. Scarff? I noticed your eyebrows came up. 18 A. I am trying to adjust to the light, 19 Mr. Bowles. Please. 20 It says here they left Monday at 2:00 21 A.M. But I specifically saw Travolta during the 22 daytime in the Hilton Hotel. And you can't see 23 the picture real well here of Travolta, but it 24 looks exactly as I saw him in the Hilton Hotel. 25 His hair was all messed up. He was not 2377 1 clean-shaven. In fact, he had a lot of growth on 2 his face. And he looked like he hadn't slept in a 3 long time and he wasn't bathed. 4 Q. Okay. So he looked exactly like the 5 picture there? 6 A. I said it looked similar to that. 7 Again, as I said before, you can't really tell 8 from this picture because it's a photocopy of the 9 newspaper. But when I saw him, he wasn't that 10 clean-shaven. He had a lot of growth on his 11 face. And his hair was tousled. And as I have 12 said before on record, he didn't look like he had 13 slept a long time either. 14 Q. Okay. So that's the article that you 15 referred to earlier; right? 16 A. No, sir. There was another article. 17 In fact, it wasn't this one. 18 Q. In the Oregonian? 19 A. Yes. And it was -- how do I describe 20 it? It wasn't like this. But it was more oblong 21 like that. And the article was down here. 22 Q. Okay. 23 A. And as I recall it, it wasn't a 24 frontal view like that. It was more of a side 25 view of his face. It was like this and it had 2378 1 newspaper script underneath the oblong picture. 2 Q. Okay. So do you have any reason to 3 doubt the accuracy of this article? 4 A. Yes, I do. It says here that he flew 5 in, if I can find it -- "Arrived Sunday night in 6 Portland." And also says -- 7 Q. I believe it says Monday night, sir. 8 First paragraph. After Monday night -- I'm 9 sorry. "Movie star John Travolta looking tired, 10 tousled and in need of a shave, arrived shortly 11 after midnight Monday in Portland." 12 A. Right. Okay. I am looking where it 13 says 500 Scientologists arrived by Sunday night. 14 I misspoke. It says, movie star arrived shortly 15 after midnight on Monday and then it says that he 16 left by 2:00 Monday, which would have put him in 17 Portland for two hours. That's not correct. 18 Q. That is a false report from the 19 paper; is that correct? 20 A. I am saying that it is false, yes. 21 Because I saw him during the daylight in the 22 Hilton Hotel. And I stand by that. 23 Q. It's not a lie? 24 A. What? That the newspaper is a lie? 25 Q. That you saw John Travolta. 2379 1 A. No, sir, it's not a lie. Now whether 2 John Travolta came back, I don't know. But I saw 3 him during the daylight. I saw him in the Hilton 4 Hotel. 5 Q. And that's entirely truthful? 6 A. Asked and answered, Counsel. 7 Bull-bait somebody else. 8 Q. Well, let's take a look at your film 9 experience for a minute. See if we can get this 10 straight. 11 I don't seem to have that right off 12 the bat but we will get to that in a bit. 13 Mr. Scarff, have you ever been to 14 Florida? 15 A. Yes, I have. 16 Q. When? 17 A. I used to live in Florida, sir. 18 Q. When was the last time you were 19 there? 20 A. I don't think that's any of your 21 business. 22 Q. Well, it's relevant to this 23 deposition so you can answer the question or not. 24 A. I think that's a privacy statement. 25 That's a privacy question, sir. And I don't think 2380 1 it's any of your business. 2 Q. So you are going to refuse to answer 3 any questions about whether you have been to 4 Florida or not? 5 A. I think in terms of where my 6 residences have been -- 7 Q. I didn't ask you for your residences, 8 Mr. Scarff. 9 A. Mr. Bowles, I just told you -- 10 Q. I asked if you have been to Florida. 11 A. Yes, I have. I told you that. 12 Q. When was the last time you were in 13 Florida? 14 A. That's none of your business, sir. 15 Q. So you are going to refuse to answer 16 any questions the last time you were in Florida? 17 A. Yes, I am going to refuse to answer 18 the question. 19 Q. Were you born in Florida? 20 A. No, sir, I was not. 21 Q. When were you first in Florida? 22 A. 1964, I believe. 23 MR. BOWLED: Counsel, as you well know, many 24 of the events that are at issue in this case took 25 place in Florida. You might want to remind the 2381 1 witness that this is an entirely relevant question 2 to the proceedings. 3 MR. CALHOUN: I don't represent this 4 witness. The magistrate has already indicated 5 that the witness is free at any time to invoke 6 whatever privilege including the privileges of 7 privacy that he believes appropriate. I am not 8 going to instruct him to do anything. 9 MR. BOWLES: Well, there is no privilege for 10 what he claims to be something -- has nothing to 11 do with privilege. I am only asking him when he 12 was there last. 13 MR. CALHOUN: If the witness believes that 14 infringes upon his privacy, then the witness 15 believes it infringes upon his privacy. And the 16 magistrate has indicated that when the deposition 17 is completed, that's something that you have the 18 right to take up with her. 19 MR. BOWLES: Well, I just remind you again, 20 this is your witness. 21 MR. CALHOUN: He is not my witness. 22 MR. BOWLES: He is your witness. 23 Voluntarily here on your expense. And you are 24 refusing to assist in getting him to answer 25 relevant questions. Is that right? 2382 1 MR. CALHOUN: I have no obligation. And the 2 magistrate has expressly stated that I am in no 3 position as counsel for a party and not for the 4 witness to admonish, instruct or do anything with 5 respect to the witness' testimony. 6 BY MR. BOWLES: 7 Q. Mr. Scarff, have you ever been to the 8 Church of Scientology in Miami? 9 A. No, sir, I have not. 10 Q. Have you ever been to the Mission of 11 Scientology in Fort Lauderdale, Florida? 12 A. Sir, I have never been to Miami or 13 Fort Lauderdale in my entire life. 14 Q. Have you ever been to the Clearwater 15 area? 16 A. Yes, I have. 17 Q. When was the last time you were 18 there? 19 A. That's none of your business, sir. 20 Q. So, again you are refusing to answer 21 that question? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. On what basis? 24 A. Privacy. 25 Q. Did you live there? 2383 1 A. That's a privacy question, sir. You 2 take it up with the judge, if you wish. 3 Q. You are not even going to tell me 4 whether you lived there? 5 A. No, sir, I am not. It's private 6 information. Take it up with the judge, if you 7 wish. 8 Q. Okay. Have you ever been there to 9 conduct surveillance on a Church of Scientology? 10 A. Absolutely not. No, I have not. 11 Q. Have you ever visited a Church of 12 Scientology in Clearwater, Florida? 13 A. I have been on the premises, 14 Counselor. 15 Q. When was that? 16 A. That's none of your concern, sir. 17 Q. And what is your privilege here? 18 A. I have already invoked what I 19 consider to be a privilege of privacy. If you 20 want to sit here and try to swim around and throw 21 different questions with different words which 22 basically rests on the same premise, then you are 23 free to do so. But I am going to constantly tell 24 you that it is privacy. I consider that to be 25 privacy, my whereabouts, where I am at, where I go 2384 1 are private information. If the judge in this 2 case rules that I need to talk about it, then so 3 be it. I will do it on a judge's ruling. But 4 let's not swim around and try to toy with me here, 5 Mr. Bowles. 6 Q. I am trying to get the foundation of 7 your so-called privilege. 8 A. Mr. Bowles, you can misrepresent your 9 questioning all you want. I know exactly what you 10 are trying to get at because I was in the church 11 for a while and I know how you play your games. 12 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 13 Counsel, are you going to restrain 14 him from going off the track like this? 15 MR. CALHOUN: I will note for the record 16 that you have asked the question. He has invoked 17 the privilege, and the magistrate expressly stated 18 that the witness may continue for as long as the 19 witness desires in explaining the basis for his 20 invocation of the privilege. 21 MR. BOWLES: Nonresponsive comments. That 22 was not in answer to a question. 23 MR. CALHOUN: Doesn't have to be. The 24 magistrate said the witness has the absolute right 25 to state for as long as he wants the basis for 2385 1 each invocation of privilege. You specifically 2 asked the witness what's the basis for your 3 invocation of the privilege and I want to 4 establish a foundation for that. 5 MR. BOWLES: And he didn't answer the 6 question. 7 MR. CALHOUN: No, Counsel. Magistrate said 8 expressly that the witness is free to put on the 9 record whatever he believes is necessary to 10 support his claim of privilege. You asked what is 11 the basis for the privilege and the witness has 12 responded. If you choose not to regard that as 13 responsive, that's irrelevant, because the 14 magistrate has established an absolute right by 15 the witness to explain the basis for his 16 privilege. 17 MR. BOWLES: Mr. Calhoun, you know very well 18 he didn't respond to my question. My only request 19 to you, sir, is that when he goes off the rails 20 and obstructs this deposition, I expect you to 21 participate in keeping him on the track. 22 THE WITNESS: I haven't obstructed 23 anything. You asked a question. I gave you an 24 answer. 25 MR. CALHOUN: And I have been expressly 2386 1 instructed by the magistrate not to instruct or 2 admonish the witness in any way, and I will not do 3 that in violation of the Court's order. 4 MR. BOWLES: I am not asking you to coach 5 him, although I think you have in the past, but 6 I'm asking you to participate with me in 7 controlling this witness to answer the questions 8 asked of him and not to go off the track in 9 extraneous comments -- 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, the only person in 11 control of me is myself and I am the one making 12 the objections, and I will do so because I have 13 read the transcript. Now apparently you have not 14 read that section of the transcript regarding the 15 privileges the judge said I have. But Mr. Calhoun 16 is not in control of me. 17 In fact, if Mr. Calhoun told me 18 basically to support your questioning here and to 19 breach my privacy, I would tell Mr. Calhoun as I 20 would tell you to go to hell. I would tell the 21 both of you to go to hell because that is a 22 privacy thing which Judge Tassopoulos has ruled 23 that I have a right to and I am going to invoke 24 that privacy. I am going to invoke -- however you 25 want to call that. I don't know that legal terms, 2387 1 but when you invoke something. But I did read 2 that Judge Tassopoulos said that I have a right to 3 privacy when it comes to questions which I 4 consider to be personal privacy. And if I wish to 5 state that on the record then I think the judge 6 supports me in that endeavor. If you don't like 7 it, take it up with Judge Tassopoulos. You are a 8 lawyer, she is a judge. You work together in the 9 same area. I don't. 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. Are you done? 12 A. Are you? 13 Q. I am asking, are you done with your 14 comments? 15 A. My question is are you? Are you 16 going to get on with this deposition or are you 17 going to try to swim around it again and play with 18 it? 19 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 20 A. If you are going to play around and 21 swim around the questioning you are not going to 22 get anywhere, sir. 23 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 24 Mr. Scarff, what privacy privilege do 25 you possess in refusing to answer questions as to 2388 1 when you were at a Church of Scientology in 2 Clearwater, Florida? 3 A. Because you are asking questions, 4 sir, about a place where I used to live and I 5 don't think that's any of your business. Now, 6 again, if you want to take it up with the Court 7 and have me compelled to give that answer, then I 8 will be happy to cooperate with any judge's 9 ruling. But as of right now, anything with 10 concern to my residency, where I used to live, 11 that's none of your business. 12 Q. Did you used to live at a Church of 13 Scientology in Clearwater, Florida? 14 A. No, sir. I have never lived at a 15 Church of Scientology center anywhere. 16 Q. I am just trying to understand then 17 why is it that you refuse to answer questions to 18 when you went into a Church of Scientology in 19 Clearwater, Florida? 20 A. That wasn't your question. You 21 didn't ask me if I went into the church. 22 Q. I asked if you were on the premises 23 of any church in Clearwater? 24 A. And you asked me what I was doing on 25 the premises of the church. Again, if you ask a 2389 1 question that's not irrelevant to the fact I 2 consider to be private, then go ahead. I have no 3 problem with answering -- 4 Q. Now you are going to answer when you 5 were on the premises of the Church of Scientology 6 in Clearwater, Florida; is that right? 7 A. When you start talking about Florida 8 and the fact where I lived and the last time I was 9 in Florida and how long I have been there, I think 10 those are questions of privacy, sir. 11 Q. When were you last on the premises of 12 a Church of Scientology in Clearwater, Florida? 13 A. Spring of 1992. 14 Q. What month? 15 A. I believe it was April. I am not 16 sure. 17 Q. And what were you doing there? 18 A. I was visiting. 19 Q. Who were you visiting? 20 A. Richard Hayworth. 21 Q. What was the purpose of your visit? 22 A. I understood at the time that Richard 23 Hayworth was the representative for the Church of 24 Scientology International involved in keeping 25 surveillance on any time Cynthia Kisser came to 2390 1 the Clearwater area or the Tampa/St. Petersburgh 2 area, to keep surveillance on her with regards to 3 her parents lived in the Tampa/St. Petersburgh 4 area and she would visit them in that area. 5 Also, there was a CAN Board meeting 6 in Miami Beach, in Fort Lauderdale area that 7 Cynthia Kisser was attending to, and the Church of 8 Scientology International was interested in doing 9 press coverage on Cynthia Kisser in trying to 10 destroy her credibility with the Tampa/St. 11 Petersburgh, Clearwater Largo media. And that was 12 the point of my being there was to simply visit 13 him and see what I could do. 14 Q. Did you go to Miami after that? 15 A. No, sir, I have never been to Miami 16 or Fort Lauderdale. Buy me a ticket, I will go, 17 though. 18 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 19 Mr. Scarff, who is Barbara Coster? 20 A. I'm sorry? 21 Q. Barbara Coster? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Ever heard of a Frank Thompson? 24 A. The name sounds familiar. But I 25 don't know him. I wouldn't know him if he came 2391 1 into the room. 2 Q. Fred Hare? 3 A. Yes. The name sounds familiar. Fred 4 Hare is involved in some kind of litigation with 5 the Church of Scientology against the Cult 6 Awareness Network. 7 Q. What kind of litigation? 8 A. I believe it's one of the many SLAPS 9 suits that you have filed against the Cult 10 Awareness Network in your Plan 100 which I have 11 already address on the record which is just a 12 frivolous lawsuit which is filed against 13 individuals. I believe his name is a plaintiff on 14 one of those lawsuits. I could be mistaken. 15 Q. How do you know that? 16 A. As I said I could be mistaken but the 17 name sounds familiar. As you are well aware, 18 there is a Plan 100 in effect against the Cult 19 Awareness Network. As you are also aware, this 20 involves numerous frivolous bad faith lawsuits 21 simply meant to harass and try to financially ruin 22 individuals whom you perceive to be enemies. 23 And I seem to recall that Fred Hare, 24 his name was added to a lawsuit by the Church of 25 Scientology International against defendant Cult 2392 1 Awareness Network, Cynthia Kisser and Priscilla 2 Coates. Of course, there have been numerous 3 lawsuits, I believe the number now is 45 lawsuits, 4 you have filed in a frivolous manner. And so I 5 could get my names mixed up. 6 Of course, I have records and I have 7 copies of some of the lawsuits that have been 8 filed. So if I had those records with me, 9 unfortunately they are at home, but if I had them 10 with me, I could probably pull it out and show you 11 where Fred Hare's name is on a lawsuit. 12 Q. That's how you know, you have records 13 at home? 14 A. I have records at home of the 15 different lawsuits that have been filed because 16 it's my understanding that my name has been 17 noticed as a defendant or as a witness in a number 18 of these lawsuits. 19 Q. Who is Leah Abady? 20 A. I'm sorry? 21 Q. Leah Abady? 22 A. Leah Abady. I don't know. 23 Q. Michael Hambrick? Do you know that 24 name? 25 A. No, I don't. 2393 1 Q. Never heard of a Peter Letterese? 2 A. Peter who? 3 Q. Letterese? 4 A. How do you spell that? 5 Q. L E T T E R E S E. 6 A. Doesn't ring a bell. 7 Q. Barbara Letterese, ever heard of 8 her? 9 A. Doesn't ring a bell. 10 Q. Diane Witkowski, W I T K O W S K I? 11 A. What's her first name? 12 Q. Diane. 13 A. Witkowski. Witkowski sounds familiar 14 but, again, I am not positive. 15 Q. How about Nancy Witkowski? 16 A. Nancy Witkowski sounds familiar. 17 Q. Who is that? 18 A. Again, I don't know her personally, 19 but I believe her name appears on again one of the 20 many frivolous lawsuits you filed against the Cult 21 Awareness Network. 22 Q. Humberto Fontana? Ever heard that 23 name before? 24 A. Yes, I have. 25 Q. Where? 2394 1 A. Again, I am speculating here, he may 2 appear on one of the frivolous lawsuits. Again, 3 sir, if I had the copy that I had all the lawsuits 4 that have been filed by the Church of Scientology 5 in this Plan 100, I would be able to refer to 6 that. But I don't have those records with me. 7 But that name sounds familiar and I believe he is 8 a defendant in the Plan 100 against the Cult 9 Awareness Network. 10 Or plaintiff, excuse me. 11 Q. Bonnie Mott? 12 A. Bonnie who? 13 Q. Bonnie Mott, M O T T. Ever heard 14 that name? 15 A. Sounds familiar but I am not sure. 16 Mott sounds familiar. 17 Q. Harry Hupp? 18 A. Sorry? 19 Q. Harry Hupp, H U P P. Ever heard that 20 name? 21 A. I believe that's the judge that's 22 hearing this case. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. It's who you refer to as "dirty 25 Harry." 2395 1 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 2 A. Well, you said it. You call him a 3 dirty judge. You said it. 4 Q. You are getting out of line, 5 Mr. Scarff. 6 A. Sir, it's in a record, sir. I have 7 read it. You have referred to the judge in this 8 case as dirty and corrupt. Now, how come you 9 can't bring that out? Sir, and it wasn't in 10 reference to Clint Eastwood here either. You 11 referred to him as a dirty judge. I don't know 12 why you can't be honest about it, sir. 13 Q. Lisa Witt? 14 A. Witt? No, sir, I don't remember the 15 name. 16 Q. Mike Witt? 17 A. Doesn't strike a bell. I am not 18 involved in these cases like you are. So I'm 19 sorry, I don't remember the names. 20 Q. Now, you have testified earlier about 21 what you claim to be the relationship between or 22 the lack of relationship between the 23 Scientologists and the psychologists or 24 psychiatrists, do you recall that testimony? 25 A. I recall the testimony about the 2396 1 Commission on Human Rights. The citizens 2 Commission on Human Rights, and how you have 3 attacked the psychology and psychiatric commission 4 or professions. And I don't have it with me, I 5 have it upstairs, but I have the book, "What is 6 Scientology" which CSI published last year. And 7 it even talks in there about how you have sought 8 to educate the public about the abuses of the 9 psychiatric/psychology profession. 10 Q. In your experience, Mr. Scarff, would 11 it be impossible for a member of the Church of 12 Scientology to be allowed to see a psychologist 13 over a ten-year span while a church member? 14 A. I'm sorry. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 16 speculation. Lacks foundation. 17 MR. BOWLES: You can read it back to him. 18 THE WITNESS: I would like to take a break 19 eventually. It's been over 45. But we can answer 20 this question first. If you want. 21 (Record read.) 22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 23 speculation. Lacks foundation. 24 THE WITNESS: Are you asking for my opinion 25 here? 2397 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. Yes. In your experience. Would that 3 be an impossible circumstance? 4 A. It wouldn't be an impossible one. It 5 would certainly be one which one would be stressed 6 not to do because there is a paranoia in what is 7 considered an invalid practice when it comes to 8 psychologists. 9 In fact, when I was in the OSA and I 10 was talking to David Butterworth, he encouraged me 11 not to see a psychologist because all they do is 12 perpetuate textbook psychology. Certainly I am 13 not damning the Church of Scientology for that. 14 There are a lot of people that don't have a lot of 15 trust for psychiatrists or psychologists. But 16 it's a given and it's in fact in your book. 17 MR. BOWLES: All right. With that we will 18 take a break. 19 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 20 The time is 11:16 A.M. 21 (Recess taken.) 22 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 23 The time is 11:46 A.M. 24 BY MR. BOWLES: 25 Q. Mr. Scarff, where were you 2398 1 yesterday? 2 A. Excuse me? 3 Q. Where were you yesterday? 4 A. I was at my residence recuperating 5 from my illness. 6 Q. Your motel? 7 A. Sir, that's none of your business. 8 Q. Oh. You are not at the motel any 9 longer? 10 A. I am sure you have spies out looking 11 for me or trying to track me down so why don't you 12 just leave it at that. 13 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 14 I am not asking where you were 15 located. I am asking you were you in your motel? 16 A. That's none of your business where I 17 was at, sir. I was ill yesterday. I had a 18 perfectly good reason for not being here. And 19 when Mr. Conrad needed to reach me to see if I was 20 going to be here today, he had no problem doing 21 so. So as far as where I was at or where I was at 22 it's none of your business. I was ill, 23 yesterday. And I was in bed all day. 24 Q. How can you document that you were 25 ill yesterday? 2399 1 A. Talk to God, I guess. 2 Q. That's it? You don't have any -- 3 A. As I said before, Mr. Bowles, if you 4 would like me to see a doctor to confirm the fact 5 that I have an ulcer and agree to pay for it, I 6 will be happy to see a doctor for you. That's an 7 option you have. It will confirm what you are 8 trying to deny I have, sir. I said I have an 9 ulcer. If you want to confirm it, pay for a 10 doctor that I can see, and I will be happy to do 11 it. 12 Q. Did you read transcripts of the prior 13 testimony yesterday, Mr. Scarff? 14 A. It's hard to read transcripts when 15 you're laying in bed sleeping. I have not been 16 able to do it. I don't know anyone that can sleep 17 and read a transcript. Can you? 18 Q. So your answer is no? 19 A. Can you? 20 Q. Did you read transcripts yesterday or 21 not? 22 A. My answer is no. Now get on with 23 your question idiot. 24 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 25 A. It's very responsive. It's true. By 2400 1 the way, did you see the article? It's pretty 2 interesting. Let you have it. You don't want 3 it? 4 Q. No. I am not interested, 5 Mr. Scarff. Let's get on with the deposition. 6 A. You are not interested in the truth 7 at all, Mr. Bowles. 8 Q. Let's get to the truth, here, Mr. 9 Scarff. 10 First of all, Counsel, if you 11 wouldn't mind handing him this page of the 12 transcript, it's from August 2nd, Page 992. I 13 would like you to read, Mr. Scarff, Line 4. 14 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you, Counsel. 15 MR. BOWLES: Yeah. 16 THE WITNESS: "27 is true." 17 BY MR. BOWLES: 18 Q. I am going to show you in the same 19 day, August 2nd, this is page -- by the way, is 20 that a correct transcription of your testimony? 21 A. I don't know, sir. I would like to 22 see 985 to 992 so I know what I am talking about 23 here. You said this is a transcript which I 24 haven't read. 25 Q. That's fair enough. 2401 1 A. What day is it? It doesn't have the 2 day on it. 3 Q. You are talking here about Exhibit-9 4 just to orient you? 5 A. But what date was the transcript, 6 sir? 7 Q. August 2nd. You want to see the 8 cover page? 9 A. Yeah, I would. 10 Q. All right. 11 So this is the cover page. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you. 13 MR. BOWLES: Yeah. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. Monday of last week, 15 okay. 16 MR. BOWLES: Right. 17 Q. Now, I think this started at 986. 18 And Mr. Berry was taking you through Exhibit-9. 19 Let me take you back to 986. And you can look 20 through till the point where you just read from. 21 And you can see that that's the context. 22 I'm sorry, I didn't hand them around 23 but -- 24 A. Okay. What -- how far do you want me 25 to read here? 2402 1 Q. Whatever you want. Up to the 2 point -- 3 A. I would like to know which one you 4 are addressing here. I am not here to toy around 5 with the process here. 6 Q. Okay. That's good. 7 A. Where do you want me to stop, sir? 8 986? 9 Q. What you asked was what is the 10 context. We just read from I think it's 992. 11 MR. CALHOUN: 994. 12 THE WITNESS: I have Page 992, here. But no 13 pages before, no pages after. And you wanted me 14 to read Line 4, which I say "27 is true." I don't 15 know whether I should write that down or not, if 16 we are going to get to that. And then this here 17 is Page 986, 988, 987 is missing. 989, 990, 991. 18 BY MR. BOWLES: 19 Q. All right. So all I am asking you is 20 do you understand the context in these questions 21 when you are going through Exhibit-9 not 22 Mr. Berry? 23 A. No. What I am asking you, sir, is 24 Line 4 says "27 is true." 27 of what exhibit. 25 What is this referring to? 2403 1 Q. That's what we are trying to 2 establish. That is your transcript. 3 A. This goes behind this. 4 Q. Right. This is your transcript for 5 Exhibit-9. 6 A. Okay. You gave it to me separately 7 so I didn't know whether they were two separate 8 exhibits or the same one. 9 Q. So you understand that's your answer 10 for Paragraph 27 of Exhibit-9? 11 A. Can I read this? 12 Q. Yeah. 13 A. Thank you. Okay. I understand. 14 MR. BOWLES: Counsel, I actually have an 15 extra copy of the August 2nd transcript. So you 16 can hand that to Mr. Scarff, then we can work on 17 two separate sets of the same transcript. 18 THE WITNESS: Do you want this back or do I 19 keep this? 20 MR. BOWLES: I think that's mine. Thank 21 you. 22 Yeah, let's turn to Paragraph 27. 23 Why don't you take a look and read that. 24 Q. Have you had a chance to look at 27? 25 A. Yes. 2404 1 Q. Is your testimony still that that 2 paragraph is true? 3 A. Except with the exception "According 4 to Priscilla Coates." Again, as I have said 5 before on record, and you were trying to bullbait 6 me with this on Tuesday -- 7 Q. 27, sir. 8 A. I am looking. Can you read? It says 9 2 7. Would that not be 27, Mr. Bowles? 10 Q. I misspoke. Go ahead. 11 A. Thank you. At the time that I was 12 being questioned by Mr. Berry, his question is 13 different than your question. 14 Q. Oh. 15 A. And looking at this, when I glanced 16 at it as I said before, it looked to be true when 17 I glanced at it and I said yes, it is true. And 18 it is. We didn't go over it word by word, 19 paragraph by paragraph, sentence by sentence as 20 you have done in this cross-examination. So I can 21 honestly say that I don't recall whether it was 22 Priscilla Coates or not that called. I wasn't 23 near the phone. I didn't hear the conversation. 24 But the rest of that is absolutely true. And I 25 don't deny that. 2405 1 Q. Okay. Okay. Take a look at 2 Paragraph 27 of Exhibit-13, sir, and compare that, 3 if you will, to Paragraph 27 of Exhibit-9. 4 A. Okay. Same thing. 5 Q. What differences are there, if any? 6 A. I don't see any differences. Looks 7 like the same paragraph. 8 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Page 1057 of the 9 transcript. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Now, on 1057 let's just go back so we 12 get the context of this. If you don't mind, go 13 back to the prior page of the transcript, 1056. 14 You see at Line 2 that Mr. Berry is now going to 15 question you as to the truth or falsity of the 16 paragraphs in that Exhibit-13. Do you see that? 17 A. That's right, I do. 18 Q. So, now, going down to 1057, Line 22, 19 what is your answer? 20 A. "27 is false." 21 Q. So what is the basis of your answer 22 that 27 is false? 23 A. I would presume the reason that 27 is 24 false is because it starts off with "According to 25 Priscilla Coates." And as I have said on record, 2406 1 I don't know who called and alerted Anne Greek 2 about why Doug Lens or the fact that Doug Lens had 3 been taken out and that Sheryl had moved. I don't 4 know where she got that information. 5 Q. So which are we supposed to believe, 6 that it's true or it's false? 7 A. Mr. Bowles, let's not play games 8 here. What I have said before and I will say 9 again, is that the paragraph with exception to the 10 four words "According to Priscilla Coates," the 11 rest of that paragraph is true. That's the 12 substance of what happened. And I stand by that. 13 Now, Priscilla Coates did in fact 14 call her, then take it up with Priscilla Coates 15 and ask her if she did, because I don't know 16 that. Depose Priscilla Coates if you have to and 17 get it out of her. But again, I don't know 18 whether it was Priscilla Coates that called her. 19 What I will tell you, Mr. Bowles, is 20 that someone did in fact call Anne Greek in 21 Calgary to tell her that Sheryl had been moved out 22 of the country because of the possibility that 23 they were going to have her kidnapped and 24 deprogrammed. Because if you recall at that time, 25 which I am sure you know this, they had tried once 2407 1 before to deprogram Sheryl and it was 2 unsuccessful. And Sheryl went underground in the 3 Unification Church. And so there was a real fear 4 at that time that Sheryl was going to be grabbed 5 again by her parents. 6 So I will attest, you know, that 7 paragraph is true with the exception where it says 8 "According to Priscilla Coates." It may have 9 been my understanding at the time that it was 10 Priscilla Coates, because I know that Anne and 11 Priscilla were talking with one another frequently 12 during that time. I was in the Positive Action 13 Center when Priscilla would call. Whether it was 14 specifically Priscilla at this time that called, I 15 don't know. Again, you are an attorney. You can 16 depose Priscilla Coates and ask her. 17 Q. All right. So -- 18 A. But the rest of that paragraph is 19 absolutely true. 20 Q. When you answered true to Exhibit-9, 21 Paragraph 27 and you answered false as to 22 Paragraph 27 in Exhibit-13, which of those is 23 true? 24 A. At the time I said it was true, I 25 looked at the paragraph on the basis of the 2408 1 paragraph and what I saw in the paragraph it 2 looked true. It was 95 percent true if you want 3 to use figures. But when I looked at it again 4 more specifically and I saw "According to 5 Priscilla Coates," then on that basis I said it 6 was false. So I am going to tell you now that 7 it's both true and false. Both of them are 8 correct. 9 Q. So they are both correct? 10 A. Both of them are correct, yes. 11 Because it is 95 percent true, 5 percent false if 12 you want to get into that. But I don't know 13 whether Priscilla Coates was specifically involved 14 or not. You need to talk to her about that. 15 Q. Let's take a look at Paragraph 29 of 16 Exhibit-9. Have you got that paragraph there? 17 A. Yes, sir, I do. 18 Q. Page 992 of the transcript. Line 6 19 to 7. What does that state? 20 A. "The essence of 29 is true but the 21 statements there are not true." 22 Q. So is that an accurate transcription 23 of your testimony? 24 A. Yes. I say the essence of 29 is 25 true. I don't say word for word 29 is true. I 2409 1 say the essence of that is true. 2 Q. So what statements are not true in 3 29? This is Exhibit-9. 4 A. With reference to him -- the 5 paragraph which references him, first of all, 6 being larger than me, because we both know he is 7 not larger than me. I believe he is older than 8 I. And that he began fondling my private parts 9 and that I cried and tried to resist his assault 10 and that he forcefully inserted his erect penis 11 into my rectum and ejaculated. Then after he 12 removed his penis I continued crying, got up and 13 went to the bathroom to take a shower. And those 14 are parts I have said on record are not true. 15 He did push himself on me. I have 16 admitted to that. It was very clear what he 17 wanted. And afterwards he did in fact tell me, 18 although Mr. Ingram says it -- refers to it as 19 legitimate counseling therapy, he did in fact tell 20 me this wasn't a homosexual act. That it was 21 simply one trying to get to know the other 22 individual but it was very clear at that time 23 Brandeberry did not want me to tell anybody about 24 what he had tried to do. 25 Q. So your testimony now is that the 2410 1 essence is true but this point about him entering 2 you is false? 3 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 4 testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does misstate it. 6 Because what you are telling me is that it's both 7 true and false and it's not true at all. 8 BY MR. BOWLES: 9 Q. The whole thing is false? 10 A. Mr. Bowles, if you choose to believe 11 that, so be it. That's not what I have said. So 12 don't misrepresent what I am saying here, sir. 13 Q. So I am just asking you. 14 A. No, you just made a statement that 15 the whole thing is false. 16 Q. It's a question. 17 A. If you believe it, that's your 18 characterization. 19 Q. I am asking is this whole paragraph 20 false? 21 A. No, the whole paragraph is not 22 false. The way that it is written, specifically 23 written is false. That's why I said in essence 24 that is true. In essence what happened, 25 happened. There is a difference between essence 2411 1 and actually happened. Look it up in the 2 dictionary, sir. 3 Q. So it went up to an advance to you 4 but you pushed him away; is that your testimony? 5 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 6 testimony. Asked and answered. 7 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. I have 8 already answered it and you have already asked 9 it. So let's move on. 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-13, 12 Paragraph 29. 13 A. We have just done that. 14 Q. We looked at Exhibit-9, Paragraph 15 29. Let's look at Exhibit-13 and tell me if that 16 paragraph is in any way different from Paragraph 17 29 of Exhibit-9. 18 A. No, it looks like the same. 19 Q. Let's turn to Page 1057 of the 20 transcript. Are you there? 21 A. Yes, I am. 22 Q. You see again that this is your 23 recounting to Mr. Berry in direct examination as 24 to what paragraphs are true and false? 25 A. That's correct. By paragraph, yes. 2412 1 Q. And what's your answer there on Line 2 24 of this Page 1057? 3 A. "That Paragraph 29 is false." 4 Q. Is that an accurate transcription of 5 your testimony? 6 A. Mr. Bowles -- 7 Q. Yes or no, is it an accurate 8 transcription of your testimony? 9 A. I can't answer that whether true or 10 false. You are not going to bullbait me in trying 11 to get me to give you an answer which is not true 12 and accurate to the best that I can give it to 13 you. So if you want a true or false answer, you 14 are not going to get it, sir. It's both true and 15 false as I have said. In essence it is true, but 16 if you were to say and based on an accusation of 17 Mr. Brandeberry on this paragraph then it would be 18 false because there are certain things that have 19 been added by your employee to my statements which 20 have shown a misrepresented article, sir. 21 Q. Okay. So anything in this paragraph 22 that you claim is false was added; is that right? 23 A. The things where Mr. Ingram, your 24 employee, the man that you pay to do such things 25 as this, where it said that he tried to force and 2413 1 in fact stuck his penis into my rectum, sir, you 2 paid your employee to say that. Is your business, 3 not mine. I didn't put it in there. So the fact 4 that Mr. -- 5 Q. You have never said that before? 6 A. Mr. Brandeberry came and tried to 7 force himself on top of me and tried to force me 8 to have sex with him, that is true. And I have 9 said that on record. The fact that he actually 10 stuck his penis into my rectum, that's 11 Mr. Ingram. That's your employee, sir, that did 12 that. 13 Q. Is that something that Mr. Ingram 14 dreamed up; is that right? 15 A. Well, if Mr. Ingram can dream up as 16 an L.A.P.D. officer of shooting himself and 17 telling everyone else that somebody else did it, 18 then certainly his creativity could be enhanced by 19 doing something like this. You know as well as I 20 do that Mr. Ingram regularly misrepresents himself 21 and lies to people in order to get phony 22 declarations. 23 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 24 A. It's on record. You can call it 25 nonresponsive all you want. You know it's true. 2414 1 It's on court record. And Eugene has a few 2 surprises wait around the turnpike for him, sir. 3 Q. What does that mean? 4 A. It means you better look for another 5 employee. 6 Q. Are you threatening him? 7 A. No, sir. I am saying on the basis of 8 the information I have you are going to be looking 9 for another employee pretty soon because he is not 10 going to be around to help you do all these phony, 11 unlawful things anymore. 12 Q. Let's stick to the point here, 13 Mr. Scarff? 14 A. I think it is the point, sir. 15 Q. Did Mr. Ingram just insert this on 16 his own, dream it up? . 17 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 18 speculation. 19 THE WITNESS: You are asking me to give my 20 opinion, sir? 21 MR. BOWLES: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think he did 23 personally. I think you helped him. I think you 24 Mr. Bowles helped him do this. 25 BY MR. BOWLES: 2415 1 Q. So you never made this statement at 2 any other time that Mr. Brandeberry inserted his 3 erect penis into your rectum? 4 A. Not that I can recall, no. 5 Q. Just came out of the blue from 6 Mr. Ingram in my office; is that what you are 7 saying? 8 A. Out of the blue, no, sir. You two 9 work on this stuff deliberately. The intelligence 10 services of the Church of Scientology 11 International do this specifically to injure 12 people. You know it as well as I do. You can sit 13 there like a little angel with a little smile on 14 your face and act like it doesn't happen. The 15 only problem is there is an awful lot of law 16 enforcement and judicial officials around this 17 country that sees right through that little shield 18 of bullshit. And you can sit here and play all 19 you want, Mr. Bowles, but it's not convincing 20 anybody but yourself that it's actually -- 21 Q. You can refrain from the obscenities, 22 Mr. Scarff. That's totally uncalled for in this 23 deposition. 24 A. With you, Mr. Bowles, I think it's 25 very accurate. You can sit here and lie all you 2416 1 want. You are only fooling yourself. Go on. 2 It's your -- ball is in your court, sir. 3 Q. My question was, Page 1057, Line 24, 4 is that an accurate transcription of your 5 testimony? 6 A. I'm sorry. 1057, Line 24? You have 7 asked it, sir. I have answered it. Let's move 8 on. 9 Q. You have not answered the question. 10 A. I have answered it. 11 Q. What was your answer? 12 A. I said in essence it is true by 13 looking at the entire paragraph, but there are 14 specific points in the paragraph which are not 15 true. 16 Q. That's not my question. 17 A. Which at the time when I was going 18 over it with Mr. Berry, I looked at the paragraph, 19 I said yes. With regards to the fact that he 20 forcefully inserted his erect penis into my rectum 21 it's not. I have been it over and over and over 22 it with you. If you want to swim around the 23 question and ask it in a different vein, fine. 24 But you have asked it. I have answered it. I am 25 not going to talk about it anymore. 2417 1 Q. The question was, Page 1057, Line 24, 2 is that an accurate transcription of your 3 testimony, yes or no? 4 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 5 Q. What is the answer? Yes or no? 6 A. Mr. Calhoun, I am not going to move 7 on here, sir. Asked and answered. I don't know 8 how many times I have to repeat it to this idiot 9 over here. But you have asked it. I have 10 answered it. Move on. 11 Q. Let's go to Exhibit-29. The Kerns 12 letter. You talked about this on direct exam. 13 A. And I have told you before I am not 14 going to discuss this letter. 15 Q. I don't think you told me you are not 16 going to discuss this letter, sir. But if you are 17 not going to discuss this letter, tell me why. 18 A. I'm sorry, I am thinking of the John 19 Biermans letter. Okay. 20 Q. So you are going to discuss this 21 letter, Mr. Scarff? 22 A. Sure. 23 Q. Okay. Let's go to the page that has 24 a paragraph numbered 14 on it. 25 A. Okay. 2418 1 Q. And why don't you read that one out 2 loud for us, will you? 3 A. "In 1979, I accompanied 4 the Greeks to Calgary Alberta, 5 Canada and the intent to kidnap 6 and deprogram their daughter. 7 "I believe it says Sheryl" from 8 the Unification Church. We were 9 assisted by deprogrammers Bob 10 Brandeberry and Diane 11 Benscoter. During one occasion 12 when I was asleep Brandeberry 13 attempted to forcefully rape me, 14 managing to enter me through my 15 rectum causing much pain and 16 bleeding. I informed Anne Greek 17 of this who instructed me to 18 forgive the incident because she 19 felt Brandeberry was the only 20 deprogrammer capable of rescuing 21 her daughter from the Moonies 22 and did not want to see him 23 arrested for behavior which he 24 exhibited in the past with 25 others including male cult 2419 1 victims." 2 Q. Thank you. So you wrote that, huh? 3 A. Yes, sir, I wrote this. 4 Q. And you wrote it on May 6, 1991? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. This declaration that we are going 7 over now, Exhibit-13, that was written on November 8 1st or signed on November 1st, 1991, wasn't it? 9 A. Yes, it was. 10 Q. So that means that Exhibit-29 was 11 written before Exhibit-13; is that right? 12 A. Well, I would assume so if it said 13 May 6 and November 1st, yes. 14 Q. How does that square with your 15 testimony that you never made the statement that 16 Mr. Brandeberry entered your rectum with his 17 penis? 18 A. Mr. Bowles, let's not skirt the issue 19 here. What I said to my recollection I never said 20 that. 21 Q. Do you recall that? 22 A. Yes. Now I do because you put the 23 letter in front of me. Yes. And I can admit. 24 Q. You made that statement now? 25 A. Yes. I made that statement. But 2420 1 it's not true. It never happened. 2 Q. Did you tell Mr. Ingram it wasn't 3 true? 4 A. I don't recall discussing it with 5 Mr. Ingram. Mr. Ingram had this. He had a copy 6 of this because it made it's way down to David 7 Miscavige and you know who Mr. Miscavige is. So I 8 don't know. I don't know whether I gave it to him 9 or not. I do recall when he knocked on my door 10 and that is when he pushed his way into my 11 apartment in October without my consent, he 12 flashed this in my face saying that it got down to 13 David Miscavige. And I told him at the time that 14 I did not give it to David Miscavige. But if I 15 said it, I admit I said it. I simply did not 16 recall that I had said that. My apology. 17 Q. There is a lot of stuff you don't 18 recall that you have said; isn't that right? 19 A. Mr. Bowles, please. When it comes to 20 going before the courts there is an awful lot of 21 things you forget to. When it comes to facing the 22 facts of the situation. 23 Q. You are kind of sloppy with your 24 recall -- 25 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 2421 1 THE WITNESS: You are kind of sloppy with 2 the truth Mr. Bowles. You are kind of sloppy with 3 your legal practice, Mr. Bowles. 4 MR. BOWLES: Let's go to Exhibit-32, I'm 5 sorry, Exhibit-9, paragraph 32: 6 Q. Paragraph 32. Now, what part of that 7 is true? 8 A. The entire portion is true with the 9 exception to the amounts that were paid to 10 Brandeberry, Diane Benscoter and Ken. And I also 11 asserted that I had questions about how much I was 12 paid because I believe at that time that I was 13 paid $400 for four days work but I am not sure. 14 It was paid to me in cash, not check. So it could 15 have been 400. It could have been 600. But 16 because we were there for only four days I believe 17 it was $100 a day, $400 in total. 18 Q. Okay. All right. So it's not true 19 that the whole paragraph is false; right? 20 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; vague and ambiguous 21 with a double negative. 22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't understand 23 what you were saying. 24 BY MR. BOWLES: 25 Q. It's not true that the entire 2422 1 paragraph is false; isn't that right. 2 MR. CALHOUN: Same objection. 3 THE WITNESS: You are going to have to tell 4 me in layman's terms, Mr. Bowles, what you are 5 getting at because I don't understand what you are 6 saying. 7 MR. BOWLES: You see, Mr. Calhoun, you are 8 coaching him with these objections. He can 9 understand it quite well. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't understand it. I 11 wouldn't address it unless I didn't understand it, 12 you idiot. Now say it. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Mr. Scarff, you are not going to use 15 language like that? 16 A. Yes, Tim. Why? 17 Q. Because the court is going to control 18 it that's why. We are not going on day after day 19 after day after day with you calling me names. 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Calhoun, I am going to 21 have to ask that a special master be present 22 during this thing because I think a special master 23 would keep Mr. Bowles in line and that he would 24 not be so endeavored to act like a little child 25 during this deposition. And let's talk about 2423 1 control. 2 MR. BOWLES: We will see who is acting 3 immaturely on the tape, Mr. Scarff. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. 5 BY MR. BOWLES: 6 Q. The question is, Mr. Scarff, is there 7 any portion of this paragraph -- let me ask you 8 again. Is this paragraph entirely false? 9 A. I can't answer that. I cannot answer 10 that. As I have said before, Mr. Bowles, and I 11 will say it again, that I believe based upon the 12 four days that I was there that I was paid $100 13 per day. I believe Anne Greek paid me in cash. I 14 specifically remember it was in cash, not a 15 check. And it was 100 dollar bills and I believe 16 she gave me four one-hundred-dollar bills. And I 17 believe that she gave Brandeberry $4,000 because I 18 know his going rate was $1,000 a day. And that 19 Diane being a minor deprogrammer in the case was 20 paid less. And so these are what I assume to be 21 the truth. Now, that doesn't make it true or 22 false, sir. If you want to get black and white, 23 then that's your business but I am not going to 24 dignify that, sir. 25 Q. Let's go to Page 992 of the 2424 1 deposition transcript. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Again, you are going through the 4 paragraphs in Exhibit-9. What is your testimony 5 on Line 17? 6 A. Line 17, "32 is untrue." 7 Q. So you previously testified this 8 entire paragraph is untrue; is that right? 9 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 10 testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: And, again, it goes back to my 12 speculation of whether I was paid 600 or 400. If 13 she in fact paid me 400, then 600 would not be 14 true; right? I have told the truth here. What's 15 the point? 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. When you answered false on August 18 2nd, that wasn't a true answer; correct? 19 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 20 testimony. 21 THE WITNESS: I think it misstates the 22 testimony, sir. I think he is absolutely 23 correct. 24 MR. BOWLES: Mr. Calhoun, speaking 25 objections are going to be frowned on as you 2425 1 know. Every time you give an objection, he is 2 parroting you. 3 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I am not. 4 MR. BOWLES: That's the problem magistrate 5 judge is talking about. 6 MR. CALHOUN: Counsel, objection; misstates 7 the evidence is a proper objection. It's not a 8 speaking objection. If I went on to explain why 9 it misstated the evidence, that would be a 10 speaking objection. A proper objection to 11 interrogation is objection; misstates the 12 testimony. That's what I have said. That's what 13 I have said repeatedly. I have not explained why 14 it misstates the testimony. I have not made a 15 speaking objection. 16 THE WITNESS: He has objected after I have 17 told you over and over and over again, I don't 18 know how many times -- do I have to sit in your 19 lap and tell you, sir, that I wasn't sure, how 20 what the dollar amounts were. But, in fact, all 21 four of us were paid. And secondly, I would ask 22 you how any of this is relevant? 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. It's relevant to your credibility, 25 Mr. Scarff. 2426 1 A. Anyone that questions my credibility 2 coming from Bowles & Moxon has a hell of a lot to 3 think about. I'm sorry. Oh, God. 4 Q. So your answer on Line 17 of Page 992 5 is inaccurate? 6 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; mis -- 7 MR. BOWLES: Is that right? 8 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 9 testimony. Argumentative. 10 THE WITNESS: You have asked, Mr. Bowles, 11 several times. I have explained it to you. If 12 you want to beat around the bush, turn around and 13 go beat on the door here because I am not going to 14 toy with you on this. You have asked it. I have 15 answered it. That's all I am going to say. I am 16 not here to play games with you. Do your TR's on 17 somebody else. 18 BY MR. BOWLER: 19 Q. There are some portions of Paragraph 20 32 that are true; isn't that right? 21 A. Asked and answered, counselor. 22 Q. So you are refusing to go on with 23 that; is that right? 24 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 25 Q. Okay. Let's go to Paragraph 46 of 2427 1 Exhibit-9. Okay. Now, sir, turn to Page 993 of 2 the transcript. Take a look at your answer there 3 for Paragraph 46. 4 A. It says on Page 993, Line 6, "46 is 5 not true." 6 Q. Is that an accurate answer or not? 7 A. It's both true and false. 8 Q. So the question to you is: Is your 9 answer at Line 6 of Page 993 an accurate answer or 10 not? 11 A. When asked in the vein that Cynthia 12 Kisser was involved, that answer is true. Cynthia 13 Kisser was not involved. The information, if you 14 were to leave Cynthia Kisser's name out of this, 15 that information in the paragraph would be true. 16 Q. So that was the meaning of your 17 answer at 993? 18 A. On Page 993 when I said it was not 19 true, I seemed to think I recalled Cynthia Kisser 20 being involved and Cynthia Kisser was not involved 21 and that's why I said it was not true. Because it 22 was Cynthia Kisser and she is named, one, two, 23 three times in that paragraph as being the person 24 involved. And she was not involved. And I simply 25 told the truth. That Cynthia Kisser was not 2428 1 involved. 2 And so far as the paragraph 3 reflecting phone calls made in communications 4 existing with the father, that was true. The 5 father told me that's what had happened. I am 6 just saying that Kisser was not the individual 7 that was involved. 8 Q. Okay. So it's not true -- well. 46 9 is not entirely false, then, is it? 10 A. No. Not entirely true either. 11 Q. Go to the same paragraph of 12 Exhibit-13, please. I'm sorry, Paragraph 46 of 13 Exhibit-13. And I am going to ask you the same 14 paragraphs? 15 A. They are the same paragraphs. 16 Q. And you answered truthfully to the 17 question as to what was true and false as to 18 Paragraph 13 when Mr. Berry asked you that 19 question? 20 A. When Mr. Berry asked me the question 21 was that paragraph untrue, I said it was false 22 because I saw that Cynthia Kisser was indicted in 23 here as the individual involved in this 24 deprogramming. And I answered that as untrue 25 because Cynthia Kisser was not involved. If you 2429 1 were to leave Cynthia Kisser's name out and plant 2 it with the actual person's name that paragraph 3 would be true. I am simply saying on the context 4 of Cynthia Kisser's name, she was not involved in 5 this. In fact, I recall talking to Eugene Ingram 6 about this specific paragraph, and he questioned 7 me and he also talked to Roger Stodola about this, 8 Mr. Bowles, that at the time this deprogramming 9 took place there was a question whether Cynthia 10 Kisser was in Chicago and working at the CAN 11 office at that time and what her position was. 12 And I recall telling him that I believe she was a 13 nonpaid secretary. That in fact she wasn't 14 working at the Cult Awareness Network at that 15 time. And he did some investigations and came to 16 his own conclusions which he said he retrieved 17 from Roger Stodola. 18 So to connect Cynthia Kisser would be 19 wrong. Someone did in fact talk to the father 20 from the Cult Awareness Network. He admitted that 21 to me. And he admitted to me that he wanted to 22 hire a deprogrammer to save his son from a satanic 23 cult and that was coming from conversations that 24 this father had with a private investigator in 25 Eugene, Oregon. But to say that Cynthia Kisser 2430 1 herself was involved, I can't say for a fact 2 that's true. Maybe he did and I don't know it. 3 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit-9 for a 4 moment. 5 A. Okay. I think we are on Exhibit-9. 6 Q. That was 13 we were just talking 7 about. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Paragraph 54, sir. Now, you got that 10 paragraph there? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. Let's take a look at your testimony 13 on Page 993 of the transcript. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. What's your answer there at Line 15? 16 A. It's both true and false. 17 Q. No, I am asking you what your answer 18 was on Page 993 at Line 15? 19 A. I'm sorry. Line 15. "54 is not 20 true." 21 Q. Is that an accurate transcription of 22 your testimony? 23 A. Yes, it is true and untrue. Looking 24 at it as a paragraph, Mr. Berry was inquiring 25 paragraphs by paragraphs. Again he did not go 2431 1 line by line as you have. And by looking at the 2 premise of this is absolutely true. The only 3 thing that is not true and it was discovered when 4 I went line by line by line as you have, Mr. 5 Bowles, that there were no contracts furnished to 6 me by Adrian Greek. But the rest of this -- 7 before I answer that, I want to read it so I don't 8 give you a wrong answer. 9 Q. Let's get that really straight. This 10 is Paragraph 54. 11 A. The second sentence where it says "We 12 threatened to quit unless he promised to pay us 13 previously agreed." There was some discussion at 14 that time about whether people were going to get 15 paid and when, how much they were going to get 16 paid because the father wasn't clear about that. 17 The third sentence is absolutely 18 untrue. And I have said that on record. Adrian 19 Greek did not provide me any contracts and to my 20 knowledge Adrian Greek has never had any such 21 contracts provided to him by Bob Brandenberry. 22 Q. Let's back up a second. The second 23 sentence, is that true or false? 24 A. I remember some discussion on it, 25 sir. It could be true. It could be false. There 2432 1 was some discussion and some doubt as to whether 2 this father was going to pay it based upon his 3 attitude and his behavior at the time. 4 Q. Well, did you threaten to quit unless 5 he promised to pay or not? 6 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. 7 Q. Now you don't remember it? 8 A. Let's not -- it's not that I now 9 don't remember, Mr. Bowles. Let's not 10 misrepresent these proceedings, sir. At that time 11 there was discussion about whether individuals 12 were going to get paid for this. The father 13 wasn't real clear about it. And that doesn't make 14 it true or false, sir. 15 Q. So did you threaten or not? 16 A. As I have said before, I don't 17 remember, Mr. Bowles. 18 Q. You don't remember. All right. 19 Fine. 20 A. Is that clear to you, sir? 21 Q. Yeah, I do. I just had a different 22 answer the other day. 23 A. Your ears are open now, thank God. 24 The third sentences, "I then had him sign a number 25 of contracts that had been previously furnished to 2433 1 me by Adrian Greek." 2 I can state for a fact that is not 3 true. 4 Q. All right. What else about that 5 paragraph is now false? 6 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, please. You like 8 to play games. What an idiot. "These contracts 9 had been previously written by Bob Brandeberry to 10 protect" -- 11 I believe the rest of it is correct 12 based on my recollection Bob Brandeberry did in 13 fact create some contracts. 14 MR. BOWLES: Okay. 15 Q. How about the fourth sentence, is 16 that now correct? "The contracts also said that 17 we would be paid in full whether or not the 18 deprogramming was successful"? 19 A. That's not what it says, sir. 20 Q. "The contracts also said that we 21 would be paid in full" -- 22 A. That's not the last sentence. 23 Q. I didn't say the last sentence. 24 A. You did. You want to listen to the 25 question? 2434 1 Q. I will restate it. The second to the 2 last sentence is "The contracts also said we would 3 be paid in full whether or not the deprogramming 4 was successful." 5 Is that sentence now false or true? 6 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, I don't know 8 whether it's now true, priorly true or now false 9 or priorly false. Keep your words to yourself. I 10 don't play games here. You are. 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Is it true or false? 13 A. As I have said -- Mr. Bowles, let me 14 finish the answer. 15 Q. New question. Is it true or false? 16 A. I don't remember. I believe it's 17 true. I seem to recall that there was a clause in 18 the contract where they said that was true. 19 Again, I am speculating based on a poor memory of 20 what happened back at that time, back at a time 21 that I don't give a damn about it. Evidently you 22 do and that's why you are focusing on sentence by 23 sentence, but we are talking about eight years 24 ago, eight or nine years ago. I don't care what 25 happened nine years ago. I am getting on with my 2435 1 life unlike yourself. You think that's funny, 2 Mr. Bowles? You do an awful lot of laughing 3 throughout this deposition. 4 Q. It's interesting when you are caught 5 in a lie what you do. It's just interesting. 6 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 7 THE WITNESS: Maybe I should start 8 publishing some things about Rona Bowles. See if 9 we can get some laughs out of that too. 10 MR. BOWLES: All right. 11 THE WITNESS: You don't want to talk about 12 that. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Let's go to Paragraph 54 of 15 Exhibit-13. 16 A. You are not smiling any more, Tim, 17 what's the problem? 18 Q. The problem is, Mr. Scarff, that you 19 fight like crazy when you lie so let's get on with 20 it. 21 A. You perfect -- 22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection. 23 THE WITNESS: I learned to lie very well 24 when I was in the Church of Scientology, and I 25 applaud you, Mr. Bowles, for helping me to learn 2436 1 stuff like that. 2 BY MR. BOWLES: 3 Q. Paragraph 54, is it the same in 4 Exhibit-13, is it the same as Paragraph 54 in 5 Exhibit-9? 6 A. I didn't understand your question. 7 Q. Compare Exhibit-13, Paragraph 54 with 8 the same paragraph number of Exhibit-9. And tell 9 me if they are the same paragraphs or not. 10 A. They look like the same, yes. 11 Lunch break. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Let's finish the paragraph. 13 MR. BOWLES: Yes. Go to Page 1059 of the 14 transcript, please. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. At Line 14. What is your answer 18 there, sir? 19 A. "54 is partially true with the 20 exception to the contracts that have been 21 furnished to me by Adrian Greek. No such 22 contracts existed." 23 Q. Now, answering right there, is that a 24 correct transcription of your testimony? 25 A. Insofar as the contracts were 2437 1 provided by Adrian Greek, yes, that is true. 2 Q. I am asking if that's a correct 3 transcription of your testimony? 4 A. I just answered your question, Mr. 5 Bowles. Open your ears, sir. 6 Q. All I am saying is that doesn't have 7 any error in it as to what you actually said in 8 deposition; isn't that right? 9 A. Maybe I phrase my answers differently 10 in the way in which you are pleased by them, 11 Mr. Bowles, but what I am saying here is that 12 there were no contracts provided by Adrian Greek 13 and Adrian Greek provided me with no such 14 contracts, and I have never seen Adrian Greek have 15 any such contracts and that's what I was trying to 16 relay here. If you want to twist the information 17 to please your agenda, go for it. Have fun. Have 18 a drink on me. What I am saying is that that's 19 true. That's how I phrased it. It's true. 20 Q. There aren't any typographical errors 21 from Line 14 to 17 of Page 1059; are there? 22 A. Mr. Bowles, that's how I phrased my 23 answer and what I was trying to allude to in that 24 answer is that Adrian Greek had no such contracts 25 on his person or did he provide me any such 2438 1 contracts. I think that's very clear in my 2 answer. 3 Q. And that reflects you read the whole 4 paragraph sentence by sentence? 5 A. I'm sorry. 6 Q. You are mentioning the contracts. 7 You read that whole paragraph here sentence by 8 sentence in order to answer that. 9 A. I may have. I don't know. 10 Q. I'm sorry, you don't know? 11 A. I said I may have. I don't recall. 12 It's been over a week and a half. I mean, this 13 is, what, the 14th day of deposition? How many 14 hours has this deposition been? It's gone way 15 overboard simply because you have chosen to 16 misrepresent yourself in this process, sir. Move 17 on we could have been done with this process days 18 ago if he didn't interrupt the proceedings to 19 begin with. 20 I would like to take a lunch break. 21 It's 12:30. It's been well over 45 minutes. 22 MR. BOWLES: Fine with me. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 24 MR. CALHOUN: Be back here about 1:35? 25 MR. BOWLES: Yes. 2439 1 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 2 Today is August 12th, 1993. The time is 12:33 3 P.M. End of Tape 1, Volume XIII, continuing 4 deposition of Mr. Scarff. 5 (The luncheon recess was taken 6 at 12:33 P.M.) 7 (At this point, LEE BRENNEMAN, 8 C.S.R. No. 5222 relieves PAULETTE M. 9 GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499 as the court 10 reporter.) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2440 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 (P.M. SESSION) 3 4 TIMONTY BOWLES, ESQ. 5 6 GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 7 8 9 10 11 ALSO PRESENT: 12 13 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 14 BOB BICHLER 15 16 17 18 19 20 REPORTED BY: 21 22 PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, CSR No. 2499 23 24 25 2441 1 (The deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF 2 was reconvened at 2:03 P.M.) 3 4 GARRY L. SCARFF, 5 having been previously duly sworn, testified 6 further as follows: 7 8 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 9 The day is August 12, 1993. The time is 10 2:03 P.M. Beginning of Tape 2, Volume XIII, 11 continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 12 13 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 14 BY MR. BOWLES: 15 Q. Mr. Scarff, other than the two 16 aliases you have given earlier today, Garrett and 17 Davis, are there any other aliases that you have 18 ever used in your life? 19 A. First of all I have never given my 20 aliases as Davis. 21 Q. I am sorry. I misspoke. 22 MR. CALHOUN: Scott. 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. Other than Scott and Garrett. 25 A. No, not to my recollection, no. 2442 1 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-13, 2 Paragraph 58. Have you read that? 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. If you wouldn't mind then, turn to 5 Paragraph 58 of Exhibit-9 and tell me if it is the 6 same with the exception of the word "Chris'" 7 replacing the word "Eddy's." 8 A. They are the same with those 9 exceptions. 10 Q. Now, you have the transcript from 11 August 2nd there. 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Please turn to Page 1059, I believe 14 it is. Now, the content of this page, again, if 15 you will recall before lunch, this is the run 16 through of Mr. Berry and yourself -- 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. -- of Exhibit-13. 19 You see at the bottom of that page, 20 sir, it says -- why don't you just read that from 21 Line 24 on. 22 A. "Paragraph 53, partially true with 23 the exception of the duct tape involved." 24 Q. Next page. 25 A. "A. 58, I am sorry." 2443 1 Q. Is that an accurate transcription of 2 your testimony with regard to Paragraph 58 of 3 Exhibit-13? 4 A. I don't see in here where 58 is even 5 discussed. It says 53. 6 Q. Right. And the next page it goes 7 on. 8 A. 58. Wait a second. Right, when I 9 discussed with him the duct tape. But I also 10 believe I discussed the bandanna. But it is not 11 here. There was a bandanna that was an exception 12 to 2. I reviewed -- I haven't reviewed these yet 13 other than what you have just given me. I haven't 14 seen this yet. 15 Q. So then is this true, did you testify 16 truthfully here? 17 A. Yes, I did. There was no duct tape 18 involved and there was also no bandanna placed 19 around the head. 20 Q. So the rest of the Paragraph 58 is 21 true, "I told one of the security men to bring me 22 a roll of duct tape"? 23 A. No. Because no duct tape was 24 involved. "And then I wrapped the duct tape 25 around his mouth to prevent him from screaming." 2444 1 That's not true because there was not duct tape 2 involved. Then a bandanna to cover his eyes and 3 thus block his vision, that wasn't true too. 4 There was nothing to blindfold him. 5 Q. So Paragraph 58 is false? 6 A. 58 would be false. There was -- his 7 father -- first of all there was no duct tape. 8 "His father tried to use his hands to keep him 9 from screaming." And I don't recall anything 10 blindfolding him although something may have been 11 done to blindfold him. I am not sure. I was 12 driving the van. I was not in the back with him. 13 Q. So Paragraph 58 is entirely false, 14 then; is that right? 15 A. No, 58 is not entirely false. 16 Q. What is true about it? 17 A. I am saying 58 or at least it says 18 53, 58, if you were to accept the correction on 19 Page 1060, is it partially true with the exception 20 of the duct tape involved. What it should read is 21 "duct tape plus bandanna." 22 That's how I read it. I don't see 23 that as false. If I were to say this was false, 24 it would preclude the duct tape. And the duct 25 tape was not involved. So I would say this is 2445 1 true. 2 Q. I am lost. Is Paragraph 58 true, 3 partially true or false? 4 A. It is partially true. 5 Q. So what part of 58 is true? I am 6 sorry. 7 A. Partially true, if I can recall that 8 time the father did put something in Chris' mouth 9 to keep him from screaming, but it wasn't duct 10 tape. 11 Q. So you didn't do it. The father did 12 it; is that it? 13 A. Right. I was driving the van. There 14 was the father. There was the gentleman from 15 New Mexico and he had two security men with him, 16 which he had contracted himself. And they were in 17 the back of the van and the father was either in 18 the passenger seat next to me or he was in the 19 back of the van trying to calm his son down. 20 And there was an attempt, first of 21 all, to blindfold him with something because we 22 did not want him to know where we were going. So 23 it could have been a bandanna. It could have been 24 a scarf. Something. But at one time he was 25 blindfolded. 2446 1 My memory is very sketchy of that 2 time. But I specifically remember I was driving 3 the van and the father was in the passenger seat 4 some of the time. And other of the time he was in 5 the back trying to calm the son down because he 6 was kicking and screaming trying to get away. 7 Q. So can you be specific as to what 8 portion of Paragraph 58 is true? 9 A. I guess what I was referring to here, 10 Mr. Bowles, when I said partially true is that the 11 act which was taking place at the time which is 12 reflected in 58 did in fact happen. I am saying 13 that it could be true, it could be false that a 14 bandanna was involved. I don't know if you would 15 differentiate between a bandanna and a scarf or a 16 towel. 17 Q. A piece of clothe anyway; is that 18 right? 19 A. A piece of clothe. Something was 20 wrapped around his head at one time to cover his 21 eyes to block his vision. I know that for a 22 fact. Whether it was a bandanna I don't recall 23 that. But that did in fact occur. 24 And I recall his father putting his 25 hand over his son's mouth to keep him from 2447 1 screaming but was concerned about being bitten as 2 well. And so there was an attempt to either stuff 3 a sock in his mouth or put something to keep him 4 from screaming. 5 So what I am saying is the essence of 6 that paragraph is true except for the first one 7 where I told security men to bring me a roll of 8 duct tape. Because I was driving the van. 9 But the second and the third 10 paragraph essentially was true except the facts 11 are not correct. 12 Q. So this is true testimony on 1059 and 13 1060? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. BOWLES: Counsel, if you would please 16 show Mr. Scarff what I will hand to you and this 17 is from the August 10 deposition cross-exam a few 18 days ago. 19 Mr. Scarff, if you could read from, 20 this is all on Page 2239. And read from Line -- 21 hold on a second. Line 4 to Line 16. Can you 22 read out loud? 23 A. "Paragraph 58, is there 24 any portion of that that is 25 true? 2448 1 "A. That entire 2 paragraph is false. 3 "Q. Paragraph 57. Just 4 for a second. 5 "A. Sure. 6 "Q. Did you provide any 7 of the information in Paragraph 8 57 to Mr. Ingram? 9 "A. No. 10 "Q. And the same for 11 58. Is there any portion of the 12 paragraph that you provided to 13 Mr. Ingram? 14 "A. What a joke. 15 Absolutely not. There was no 16 bandanna and there was no tape. 17 Please. He has a very creative 18 mind." 19 Q. Is there any part of that 20 transcription that is inaccurate? 21 A. No, I would say it is still 22 accurate. 23 Q. So that's accurate too; is that 24 right? 25 A. Yes. I still say it is true because 2449 1 what I refer to in Line 4 of Page 2239? 2 "A. What a joke. Absolutely not. 3 There was no bandanna and there was no tape." 4 That's exactly what I have said just 5 now. To my knowledge there was no bandanna and 6 there was no duct tape. Now, what is the problem 7 here? 8 Q. Okay. That's your answer? 9 A. Yes. I thought that is what I just 10 said. 11 Q. So was there anything true, again, 12 about 58? 13 A. What I said was true was the fact 14 that there was an attempt at one time to cover his 15 eyes to block his vision so he would not know 16 where we were going. That was when we were -- 17 when we left Eugene, Oregon, and when we were on 18 the freeways. We did not want Eddy to know what 19 direction we were going. 20 Q. So when you answered it -- 21 A. So the last sentence is essentially 22 correct where there was an attempt by the father 23 and the others to block his vision. Whether it 24 was a bandanna around the head, I don't recall 25 that. 2450 1 And the second sentence where it says 2 "I then wrapped the duct tape," well, it would be 3 hard for me to wrap duct tape around a screaming 4 person trying to get out of the truck when I am 5 driving the van. 6 Q. So it is not accurate when you 7 testified at Page 2239 that the entire paragraph 8 was false, is it? 9 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes 10 the testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: If you were -- Mr. Bowles, if 12 you read this paragraph and accept what is said 13 here verbatim, yes, it is false. 14 BY MR. BOWLES: 15 Q. So it is both true and false, then? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Let's go to Paragraph 60 of 18 Exhibit-9. And compare that, please, to 19 Exhibit-60 of Exhibit-13 and tell me if there is 20 any substantive difference in those paragraphs 21 other than changing the word from "Chris" to 22 "Eddy." 23 A. One difference I see in that in 24 Exhibit-9 in the first sentence the trip took 12 25 hours whereas in 13 it says the trip took seven 2451 1 hours. 2 Q. Which is true? 3 A. I would presume to say that -- 4 Q. If any. 5 A. I am only presuming here. I would 6 say 12 hours versus seven. Simply because we took 7 several breaks along the way. A trip from Eugene 8 to Seattle would take you approximately seven 9 hours. Since we took breaks along the way, I 10 would say it was more like 12. 11 Q. So 12 is closer to the truth than 12 seven? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Scarff, turn to -- 15 A. I am sorry, can I finish? 16 Q. Sorry. Do you have something else? 17 A. Yes, I just wanted to finish 18 evaluating this. Okay, go ahead. 19 Q. Other than that they are the same 20 other than the word "Chris" changed to "Eddy"? 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Take a look at your testimony on 23 Exhibit-9 which is at Page 995. And that would be 24 reading from Line 3 to Line 6. I am sorry 25 Line 4. Line 3 and Line 4. 2452 1 A. "Paragraph 60 is true 2 with the exception that the 3 individual was not handcuffed. 4 61 is not -- " 5 Q. So the testimony about 60, we just 6 want to concentrate on that. It is true with the 7 exception that he was not handcuffed. That is an 8 accurate transcription of your testimony on 9 Page 995? I am simply asking you if the 10 transcription is accurate on 995 with regard to 11 Paragraph 60. Is that accurate? 12 A. It is not accurate, no. 13 Q. There is a typo there? 14 A. No. There is just a bit of 15 information that has been left out of this here. 16 Q. So the testimony about Paragraph 60 17 on Page 995 is inaccurate? 18 A. As it is transcribed it is 19 inaccurate, yes, as far as not having the full 20 scope of what I have attested to on record 21 already. Because I believe Mr. Wiener brought 22 this up last week the fact that we did not allow 23 him to eat during the entire van trip. I believe 24 I stated on the record somewhere in this 25 transcript that we offered him a chance to eat and 2453 1 he refused. But it is not here. It is somewhere 2 in this transcript and I do specifically remember 3 Mr. Wiener specifically addressed that sentence 4 and I told him that we offered him a chance to 5 eat, but he wouldn't. But it is not reflected 6 here on Page 995. 7 Q. So your testimony at 995 is not 8 entirely accurate; is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Let's take a look at that, Counsel, 11 if you wouldn't mind, this is going to be your 12 testimony, Mr. Scarff, at Page 2243 beginning at 13 Line 12 and going to the bottom of the following 14 Page, 2244. 15 A. "Q. Mr. Scarff, what 16 portion, if any, of Paragraph 60 17 is false? 18 "A. The fifth sentence 19 which refers to kept handcuffed 20 and blindfolded is untrue. The 21 last sentence is untrue. 22 "Q. All right. So is it 23 true that Chris -- well, when we 24 talk about Chris for the record 25 here in this exhibit, you are 2454 1 actually referring to Eddy 2 Fallon? 3 "A. That is correct. 4 "Q. And that got 5 corrected in the declaration 6 signed in November in Oklahoma 7 City? 8 "A. That's correct. 9 "Q. Which is now 10 Exhibit-13 in this deposition? 11 "A. Yes. 12 "Q. So it is true that 13 Chris, Eddy, continued to resist 14 during the trip so he was 15 usually kept gagged? 16 "A. I recall his father 17 gaging him, yes. After his 18 father tried putting his hand 19 over his mouth so he won't 20 scream, the father gagged him. 21 But he was not blindfolded 22 during the trip. During that 23 entire trip his father tried to 24 calm him down and talk with 25 him. 2455 1 "And the last sentence 2 is incorrect. In fact we tried, 3 and I shouldn't say we because I 4 was driving the van, but 5 individuals in the truck 6 including his father tried to 7 get him to eat something that we 8 had gotten at Burger King and he 9 refused. 10 "Q. So it is false that 11 the group did not allow him to 12 eat during the entire van trip? 13 "A. That is correct. 14 "Q. So if you have 15 testified previously under oath 16 that this entire paragraph is 17 true except for the handcuffs, 18 that would be an untrue 19 statement, correct? 20 "A. Yes." 21 Q. So it is your testimony that what you 22 just read is the accurate -- 23 A. To the best of my recollection, yes. 24 Again like I said before, when it talks about 12 25 versus seven hours, just based upon what I know to 2456 1 be the mileage time from Eugene, or grand to 2 Seattle which is about seven hours knowing that we 3 stopped along the way, then I think it is easy to 4 say it was closer to 12 than seven. 5 Q. Let's take a break from his little 6 exercise for now and ask you another question. 7 A. You want this back? 8 Q. No, we will get back to that in just 9 a few minutes. 10 I assume the same goes on your 11 cross-examination that you have claimed goes on 12 your direct which is that you have testified 13 truthfully throughout? 14 A. To the best of my memory, yes. 15 MR. BOWLES: Off the record just a second. 16 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The time 17 is 2:23 P.M. 18 (Recess taken.) 19 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 20 The time is 2:34 P.M. 21 BY MR. BOWLES: 22 Q. I want to show you now some testimony 23 earlier in the deposition, and I can give you the 24 whole transcript from Friday the 6th would 25 probably be the best so you can see it in 2457 1 context. In particular take a look at Page 1749, 2 starting at Line 6 and going to Line 21. Or 20, I 3 am sorry. 6 to 20. 4 A. "Q. Did you ever appear 5 in any porno films? 6 "A. I did not. 7 "Q. Did you ever tell 8 anybody you appeared in porno 9 films? 10 "A. Yes, I did. 11 "Q. Who did you tell? 12 "A. It was written in a 13 letter which is an exhibit in 14 the record and it is May or 15 April of 1991 and it was written 16 to a Reverend John Kerns which 17 is -- with the Archdiocese of 18 Portland. 19 "Q. So your statement to 20 reverend Kerns was false? 21 "A. Yes, it is and I 22 have in fact already stated so 23 on record. In fact I will get 24 the exhibit so I can refer to 25 it." 2458 1 Q. And then you go into Kerns' letter 2 and so forth. 3 A. Do you want me -- 4 Q. No, that's fine. 5 That testimony, is there any typo? 6 A. No, that's exactly as I have said it 7 and I have already said in later testimony that in 8 fact I did appear in porno films. 9 Q. I am sorry? 10 A. I have said in later testimony in 11 fact I have appeared in porno films. The question 12 came up yesterday that you asked me that. 13 Q. Which is true, have you or have you 14 not? 15 A. I have but again this was subject to 16 counselor confidentiality within the Church of 17 Scientology and I won't discuss it. In fact I 18 will do it this way. 19 Q. Let's take a look at that other 20 testimony. And this has a bunch of my stickies on 21 it but I think I can bear with it. We were 22 talking here, Mr. Scarff, as you will see from the 23 context about Exhibit-9 and Paragraph 10. Do you 24 want to take a look at that? 25 A. I am here. 2459 1 Q. You have got that context? 2 A. Exhibit-9, Paragraph 10. 3 Q. You remember that was the paragraph 4 that talked about the People's Temple and the 5 claims you made? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. If you wouldn't mind please read from 8 Page 2030, Line 23 after Mr. Calhoun's objection, 9 through to Line 14 on the next page. This again 10 is Volume XI from Tuesday. It may be Monday. One 11 or the other. 12 A. "THE WITNESS: What I am 13 saying is true, Mr. Bowles, is 14 that I made these things up. 15 Yes. I am not saying these 16 incidents are true. 17 "BY MR. BOWLES: 18 "Q. I understand that. 19 You made up all these claims and 20 they were blatant lies; is that 21 right? 22 "A. All except for the 23 one thing here where it said 24 that I appeared in a 25 pornographic movie, that is 2460 1 true. 2 "Q. Wait a minute, is it 3 true that you appeared in a 4 pornographic movie? 5 "A. Yes, it is. And you 6 know that because it is in my PC 7 file and Eugene Ingram had that 8 and even claimed to have that in 9 files. 10 "Q. So wasn't that a 11 blatant lie? 12 "A. No. No, that's 13 true. That's true." 14 Q. So your prior testimony that you were 15 not in porno films is inaccurate, is that correct? 16 A. Yes, it is. Yes, it was. 17 Q. Let's work on Exhibit-9 for a while. 18 And in particular Paragraph 14. Do you have that 19 paragraph in mind? 20 A. Yes, I have do. 21 Q. Let's take a look at the testimony on 22 August 2nd, and this will be Page 990, sir, in the 23 transcript before you. 24 A. I don't have it in front of me. 25 Q. Yes. 2461 1 A. Okay. 2 Q. So would you please read on that Page 3 990 from Line 8 to Line 11. 4 A. "14 is true. However, in reference 5 to the article contending lies and misquotes they 6 are all arranged by the Church of Scientology 7 against the Cult." 8 MR. CALHOUN: I note for the record that I 9 believe that's been corrected in the official 10 transcript. 11 MR. BOWLES: Meaning that the word "cult" 12 should have been "Cult Awareness Network." 13 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 14 BY MR. BOWLES: 15 Q. So is that testimony on Page 990 16 accurate? Any typos in there? 17 MR. CALHOUN: Obviously, Counsel, we just 18 corrected one for the record. 19 MR. BOWLES: Except for the one. 20 THE WITNESS: You mean in this one right 21 here? 22 BY MR. BOWLES: 23 Q. Yes, except for the word "cult" 24 should be Cult Awareness Network, do you see 25 anything else that is inaccurate in the 2462 1 transcription? 2 A. Well, I think the sentence is 3 incorrect where it says, "They are all arranged by 4 the Church of Scientology," it should say "Church 5 of Scientology and myself" because I have said all 6 along we were both involved in this. It wasn't 7 simply someone telling me something. I was part 8 and parcel to this entire scheme. 9 Q. But I am just asking you if there is 10 any typographical errors -- 11 A. Typographical? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. No. I am just saying there was an 14 omission. 15 Q. All I am asking is, this is an 16 accurate transcription of your testimony on 17 August 2nd, right? 18 A. No. If there was an omission of 19 information of a word or two, that would not be 20 inaccurate. 21 Q. All I am saying, is this typewritten 22 set of words the same words that you spoke on that 23 day? 24 A. I don't believe it is, no. I believe 25 that I said "they are arranged by the Church of 2463 1 Scientology and myself," I believe. I could be 2 mistaken. But I believe that I said, "And myself" 3 in there. 4 Q. Let's take a look at Paragraph 17 of 5 this Exhibit-9. Do you have that one in front of 6 you? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. And now, if you wouldn't mind turn to 9 Page 991 of that transcript, August 2nd. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. And you see at Line 16, what does it 12 state there? 13 A. "17 is true." 14 Q. Let's take a look at the transcript 15 from August 9. I will hand that to you. All 16 right. Now, Mr. Scarff, just to speed it along as 17 you just did, I can give you the page and line 18 numbers. If you can read between these. This 19 will be Page 2033 starting at Line 21 and then 20 reading straight through to Line 3 of 2038. 21 A. Is it in this volume here? 22 Q. No, it is not. We are going to hand 23 it over to you. 24 A. Okay. 25 "Q. 17, anything there 2464 1 that's false 2 "(At this point GRAHAM 3 BERRY, ESQ. left the deposition 4 proceedings.) 5 "THE WITNESS: That's 6 false? 7 "BY MR. BOWLES: 8 "Q. Correct. Anything 9 there that's false? 10 "A. The second sentence 11 is false. 'Anne Greek told me 12 that Bob Brandyberry would 13 conduct Sheryl's actual 14 deprogramming and I would assist 15 him.' That is not true. 16 "The role that I played 17 in that, Mr. Bowles, is that I 18 was a friend of Anne Greek and 19 she -- we had this mutual 20 support system going on. I went 21 to her for support. She came to 22 me for support. 23 "At the time it was my 24 understanding that although she 25 had several children that none 2465 1 of her children were that 2 involved in her cult education 3 activities. And so she relied 4 upon me for support. And she 5 said my only reason for going 6 was to be their support system 7 for her and that I would help 8 them in whatever they wanted me 9 to do. 10 "But as far as the 11 actual deprogramming was 12 involved, I was not involved in 13 that. I had no previous 14 experience as a deprogrammer. 15 And they had hired not only Bob 16 Brandyberry but a gentleman by 17 the name of Ken and Diane 18 Benscoter who was an ex-Moonie. 19 And those were the ones involved 20 in the deprogramming attempt. 21 "Q. So it is false when 22 it states here that 'Anne Greek 23 told me that Bob Brandyberry 24 would conduct Sheryl's actual 25 deprogramming and I,' Gary 2466 1 Scarff, 'would assist him'? 2 "A. That's correct. 3 Because they never hired me to 4 assist them in the deprogramming 5 itself. I was there more as a 6 support system for Anne Greek. 7 "Q. So it is just that 8 last phrase that's false that 'I 9 would assist him'? 10 "A. Well, no. To me, 11 and I could be incorrect, the 12 sentence infers that I was being 13 hired to conduct deprogramming 14 with Bob Brandyberry. And that 15 was not my role at all. My role 16 was simply to be a support 17 person for Anne Greek during 18 this time. But I was not going 19 to be involved in the 20 snatching. I was not going to 21 be involved in the counseling 22 her. It was simply as a support 23 person for Anne Greek at the 24 time. 25 "Q. Oh, I see. So does 2467 1 that make the whole paragraph 2 false? 3 "A. No. I simply said 4 the second one is false and 5 that's it. Only the second 6 sentence in that paragraph is 7 false. 8 "Q. Well, I am just 9 curious, if you say that Anne 10 Greek asked you only to support 11 her, Anne Greek, then how does 12 that square with the first 13 sentence which says 'Anne Greek 14 asked me if I would help in the 15 forceful deprogramming of 16 Sheryl'? 17 "A. Because, as I have 18 said before, I was there as a 19 support person. Anne Greek and 20 Adrian, her husband, were -- 21 well, in fact they went to 22 Calgary, Alberta, Canada and 23 they were going to kidnap Sheryl 24 and have her sent back to the 25 United States to be 2468 1 deprogrammed. That's my 2 understanding at the time. 3 "There was a lot of 4 questions there whether Bob 5 Brandyberry and Diane Benscoter 6 were going to do the 7 deprogramming there in Canada 8 or, as I said, ship her back to 9 the United States where they 10 would be in their home 11 territory. 12 "And so I was to help, I 13 mean, the first sentence is kind 14 of misleading because I was not 15 going to be involved in the 16 kidnapping whatsoever. They had 17 people to do that. 18 "Q. All right. So the 19 first sentence is misleading? 20 "A. It is misleading but 21 in essence it is correct because 22 this was going to be a forceful 23 deprogramming of Sheryl and I 24 was going to involved with them 25 during this time. And I think 2469 1 if law enforcement was to come 2 up on us, they wouldn't make a 3 differential. That I would be 4 charged with conspiracy if they 5 were charged with any type of 6 criminal conduct. So in legal 7 terms I think this is truthful. 8 "Q. You understood that 9 this was going to involve the 10 forceful deprogramming of the 11 Greeks' daughter; is that right? 12 "A. Yes. At the time I 13 believed it was a rescue. A 14 rescue from a dangerous cult. 15 "Q. Now, the second, I 16 am sorry, the third sentence 17 says 'Anne Greek told me that 18 she trusted me to do this.' Is 19 that sentence correct? 20 "A. No, that's not 21 accurate. Anne Greek again 22 hired me as a support person for 23 her. 24 "Q. Okay. 25 "A. And I did agree to 2470 1 help her. 2 "Q. Did you agree to 3 help her with the forceful 4 deprogramming of Sheryl? 5 "A. No, no, absolutely 6 not. I was there simply as a 7 support person to her. 8 "Q. Okay. And the last 9 sentence is true as well; is 10 that right? 11 "A. Yes." 12 Q. Thank you. So let's go back 13 momentarily to Page 991. The testimony first of 14 all that you have just read, was that an accurate 15 transcription of what you testified to on August 16 9th? 17 A. It seemed like it, yes. It is hard 18 to analyze something and read something in that 19 depth, but, yes. 20 Q. Line 16 at Page 991. When you state 21 there that 17 is true, is that inaccurate? 22 A. Yes and no. Again I mean we were 23 discussing the paragraph as a whole. And these 24 things actually did take place. It is just that 25 some of the facts are misleading. 2471 1 Q. Let's go to Paragraph 18 now. 2 Mr. Scarff, take a look at -- you 3 have got a copy, 991 and the next line is 17. 4 A. Where it says "18 is true"? 5 Q. Right. Take a look over 18 again, if 6 you wouldn't mind. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. I am just noticing here, I think we 9 have a fairly large gap in the transcript. Just 10 for the record on Page 2061 -- Mr. Calhoun, you 11 may have this too -- at Line 4 on Page 2061 12 states, it says that to Mr. Ingram, that second 13 sentence and it says, "No, absolutely not." And 14 then it says "Let's go to Paragraph 30 now." 15 That's jumping from Paragraph 17 up to 30. 16 My notes indicate that we discussed 17 all paragraphs in between. That's just for the 18 record. We have got to check that because I think 19 it got left off. 20 Which means, Mr. Scarff, that we are 21 going to go jumping to Paragraph 30. 22 A. You don't want to do 18? 23 Q. There is no transcription here of 24 what we discussed on the 9th of August. We are 25 comparing now the direct to the cross-exam. 2472 1 Let's go to Paragraph 30 then, sir, 2 of Exhibit-9. We will have to come back to 17 and 3 some of the others between Exhibit-30 when we look 4 at the transcript. 5 Paragraph 30. Do you have that one 6 in mind? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And here on Page 992, sir, at 9 Line 15, if you could read your testimony there? 10 A. "A. No. 30. Not true." 11 Q. Now, if you would now read from the 12 transcript of August 9th, and this is going to 13 start at Page 2061 and it will begin at Line 6 and 14 go through to the top of Page 2064, the first 15 line. 16 A. "Q. Let's go to 17 Paragraph 30 now. 18 "A. 30. 19 "Q. Yes. Is there any 20 part of that paragraph that is 21 true? 22 "A. The second sentence 23 is true and the third in essence 24 is true. But it has been 25 enhanced and I guess is the word 2473 1 for it being indicting. 2 "Q. So when you say it 3 is true in essence, what is the 4 truth? 5 "A. Mr. Brandyberry 6 begged me not to tell the Greeks 7 about his attempt to penetrate 8 me and come onto me. He also 9 told me that what he did was not 10 homosexual, that it was not 11 sexual in any way in that it was 12 one man's attempt to be 13 affectionate to another 14 individual. 15 "And I told him at that 16 time that that was not true. I 17 knew exactly what he tried to 18 do. And he told me that the 19 Greeks wouldn't believe me even 20 if I did tell them. And that 21 was the source of that 22 statement. 23 "Now, Mr. Ingram here is 24 the one that created this idea 25 that "An act of sodomy being 2474 1 forced upon me was a legitimate 2 counseling therapy." That's 3 Eugene Ingram's words. I never 4 said that. 5 "Q. Okay. So the third 6 sentence then is false? 7 "A. Totally false. 8 "Q. So it is not true in 9 essence, it is just false, 10 right? 11 "A. What I was saying, 12 Mr. Bowles, is that when I use 13 the word 'essence,' is that 14 Mr. Brandyberry in an act of 15 denial tried to persuade me that 16 what he was doing was in some 17 way getting closer to me on a 18 very platonic basis. And there 19 was no sexual stuff involved. 20 "So in essence to me 21 that would be telling me that he 22 is trying to claim some 23 therapeutic value to what he was 24 doing. And so I would simply 25 say in essence it is true but 2475 1 the statement is false. 2 "Q. Okay. As written 3 the statement is false? 4 "A. That's correct. 5 "Q. And so the first 6 sentence is true? 7 "A. No, it is not. He 8 didn't even try to enter the 9 shower with me. 10 "Q. So that's false? 11 "A. That's false. 12 "Q. Okay. Did you make 13 a statement to Mr. Ingram that's 14 reflected in the first sentence 15 of this paragraph? 16 "A. No. 17 "Q. And for the third 18 sentence, you didn't make that 19 statement to Mr. Ingram either, 20 did you? 21 "A. No, sir. I told 22 Mr. Ingram what I just told you. 23 "Q. So if you have 24 stated under oath that paragraph 25 30 is false in all respects, 2476 1 that would be an incorrect 2 statement, correct? 3 "A. No, it would not. 4 If I said that this was false in 5 essence it would be a true 6 statement because there are 7 parts of it that are false and 8 parts of it that are true. 9 "Q. The second sentence 10 is true, right? 11 "A. The second sentence 12 is true, yes. He tried to 13 convince me not to tell the 14 Greeks. 15 "Q. So if you have 16 stated the whole paragraph is 17 false, that would be incorrect? 18 "A. That's correct." 19 Q. So your answer then at Page 992, Line 20 15 which says, "No. 30, not true," that's 21 inaccurate? 22 A. Well, yes. On Page 991 and 992, as I 23 have said before, as I scan the paragraph and I 24 looked at it, glanced at it, it looked true to me 25 and that's why I said true, true, true. 2477 1 Q. So Line 15, in answer to No. 30 "not 2 true," that is an inaccurate statement? 3 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 4 testimony. 5 THE WITNESS: That is inaccurate. 6 BY MR. BOWLES: 7 Q. Let's go Paragraph 31 now. Again at 8 Line 16 now, Mr. Scarff, on Page 992, your answer 9 there? 10 A. "31 is not true." 11 Q. Is that an accurate transcription, no 12 typos there? Just that one line? 13 A. I guess. 14 MR. BOWLES: Mr. Calhoun, I am going to hand 15 you now again the transcript from August 9th and 16 this, Mr. Scarff, if you could read from Line 2 to 17 Line 18 of Page 2064. 18 A. "Q. Paragraph 31, is 19 there any part of that that's 20 true? 21 "A. This sentence is 22 reflective of Mr. Ingram's 23 interpretation of what I told 24 him. It is not exactly as I 25 told him but in essence it is 2478 1 true. 2 "Q. So the whole 3 paragraph is true in essence? 4 "A. In essence it is 5 true, yes. 6 "Q. So if you have 7 stated that the whole paragraph 8 is false, that would be 9 incorrect; is that right? 10 "A. That's correct. 11 "Q. If you stated under 12 oath that the whole paragraph is 13 false, that would be a false 14 statement? 15 "A. Yes." 16 Q. So the statement you made at Line 16 17 of Page 992, is that inaccurate? 18 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 19 testimony. 20 THE WITNESS: It is true and untrue. I mean 21 there is parts of it that are true and parts of it 22 that are not untrue. 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. So at Line 16 your Statement "31 is 25 not true," that's not entirely accurate; is that 2479 1 correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Let's pop down to Paragraph 39. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. By the way, that last thing you read 6 on Paragraph, what was it, 30? 7 MR. CALHOUN: We were on 31. 8 BY MR. BOWLES: 9 Q. The transcript you read from, this 10 August 9th transcript on Paragraph 31, you didn't 11 see any typos or inaccuracies in the 12 transcription, did you? 13 A. That one line? 14 Q. No, I am talking about the narrative 15 you read from our discussion on this on Monday, 16 Paragraph 31 of -- it was on that one Page, 2064, 17 you read from Line 2 down to Line 20. 18 A. Can I see it? I don't remember what 19 I said Monday. 20 Q. You just read that. 21 A. I just read this? 22 Q. Yes. I forgot to ask you if there 23 were any typos in there or inaccurate 24 transcription in that section. 25 A. No, I am referring to essence. 2480 1 That's okay. 2 Q. No typos? 3 A. No. 4 Q. All right. On 39, then, take a look 5 at Page 992 again, and at Line 19? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That includes your statement as to 8 whether 39 is true or not true, do you see that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what was your testimony there? 11 A. It says "39 not true." 12 Q. That's among a bunch of other numbers 13 you gave, right? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. So now I am going to hand you the 16 transcript from August 9th and this is going to be 17 from Line 5 of Page 2069 through to Line 22 of 18 that same page. 19 A. Okay. 20 "Q. Paragraph 39, is 21 there any part of that that's 22 true? 23 "A. I believe the first 24 sentence is true because I do 25 recall John telling me that he 2481 1 had brought or tried to secure 2 some prosecution against his 3 brother or against 4 Mr. Brandyberry in the case. I 5 don't recall what happened as a 6 result of that. I think the 7 charges were dropped. 8 "Q. How about the second 9 sentence, is that true or false? 10 "A. Well, that would 11 definitely be false because I 12 wasn't involved. 13 "Q. Okay. So if you 14 have made the statement under 15 oath that this entire paragraph 16 is false, that would be an 17 untrue statement, correct? 18 "A. Yes." 19 Q. Is there any inaccuracy in the 20 transcript there that you saw from what we 21 discussed that day? 22 A. No, sir, there isn't. 23 Q. So now on Page 992 again, sir, your 24 statement there about Paragraph 39 being not true, 25 is that inaccurate? 2482 1 A. It is true and untrue. There is a 2 sentence in here that is true. There is a 3 sentence that is untrue. 4 Q. So by saying that 39 is not true, 5 that is not entirely accurate, is it? 6 A. Let me read the paragraph, if I may, 7 and I will respond to that. 8 Right, the first sentence is true. 9 The second sentence is not true, although there is 10 a portion of the second sentence which is true. 11 Q. So to say that 39 is not true is not 12 entirely accurate, is it? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Can we take a break if that's 15 possible. 16 MR. BOWLES: Okay. 17 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The time 18 is 3:07 P.M. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 21 The time is 3:29 P.M. 22 BY MR. BOWLES: 23 Q. Paragraph 42, Mr. Scarff, of 24 Exhibit-9, turn to that. 25 Now, on Page 992 of the transcript, 2483 1 do you see your answer as to whether that was true 2 or not true? 3 A. Yes. Line 19, 39 and Line 20 says 4 "Not true." 5 Q. Your testimony was that that 6 Paragraph 42 was not true? 7 A. I thought you said 39. 8 Q. We were on 39 previously, I believe. 9 We are now down to 42. 10 A. Right. "42, not true." 11 Q. Can you read now from the August 9 12 transcript from Page 2073, Line 13 to Page 2075, 13 Line 22. 14 A. "Q. Paragraph 42, what 15 part of that, if any, is true? 16 "A. Second paragraph is 17 true. 18 "Q. Okay. 19 "A. I am sorry, second 20 sentence is true. First 21 sentence is false. Half false. 22 "Q. Okay. Which part is 23 half false? 24 "A. The sentence which 25 says 'Melinda told me that she 2484 1 got my phone number off of a 2 list of deprogrammers' that 3 portion of the sentence is 4 true. The portion that says 5 'that Cynthia Kisser provided 6 to her,' that's not true. I 7 never said that. Eugene 8 inserted that there. I don't 9 know where they got the list of 10 deprogrammers, quite frankly, 11 and I don't even know how I even 12 got on the list of 13 deprogrammers. 14 "Q. Okay. The second 15 sentence is true or false? 16 "A. Well, in essence it 17 is true, but you are talking 18 almost like this deprogramming 19 is as a piece of merchandise. 20 Where it says 'experiences 21 specialty and price.' It is 22 like you are selling something. 23 "When Melinda called me 24 she said that my name was at the 25 very bottom of the list of 2485 1 deprogrammers that may be 2 interested in doing something 3 like that and that each person 4 next to their name it said what 5 group or organization they used 6 to be members of, how much they 7 were wanting to charge to do a 8 case or a deprogramming, and the 9 qualifications that they had for 10 doing stuff like that. Whether 11 they had been a psychologist, a 12 mental health therapist, a 13 counselor of some sort. And 14 they said that next to my name 15 there was nothing. They simply 16 had my name there. 17 "So what I am saying in 18 essence is that it is true but I 19 don't even recall mentioning 20 specialty and price. 21 "Q. So you didn't have 22 personal knowledge of a list 23 that had specialty and price on 24 it? 25 "A. No, I didn't -- you 2486 1 know, I was even amazed my name 2 was on this list. 3 "Q. Okay. So you never 4 told Mr. Ingram that Cynthia 5 Kisser had provided her phone 6 number? 7 "A. No. 8 "Q. As it states in 9 Sentence 1 of Paragraph 42. 10 "A. No, I did not. In 11 fact during the entire time that 12 I was with Mr. Ingram, as I have 13 said before, he was trying to 14 find something that was 15 specifically focused on 16 indicting Cynthia Kisser and he 17 constantly reminded me of that. 18 'We need to indict Cynthia 19 Kisser. We need to get her out 20 of the picture.' That was the 21 whole focus. 22 "Q. All right. So if 23 you have stated under oath that 24 Paragraph 42 is entirely false, 25 that would be an untrue 2487 1 statement, correct? 2 "A. Yes, it would." 3 Q. Did you see anything inaccurate about 4 that transcription you just read? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So in your testimony before Mr. Berry 7 that Paragraph 42 is not true, that's inaccurate, 8 isn't it? 9 A. Well, it is true and not true. 10 Q. So it is not entirely accurate? 11 A. On the face of it, it would not be 12 accurate, yes. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Scarff, have you ever 14 committed an act of kidnapping? 15 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, calls for 16 speculation and legal conclusion. 17 THE WITNESS: As I have said before on 18 record, the way the kidnapping has been defined to 19 me by law enforcement authorities both in a 20 federal sense and a local police level is that 21 kidnapping requires kidnapping or taking someone 22 against their will and that malice was involved. 23 Since malice was not involved in the kidnappings 24 or snatchings or rescues that I was involved in, I 25 don't consider the fact that I kidnapped anybody. 2488 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. It is your testimony that you had no 3 malice against the individual? 4 A. No, I had no malice whatsoever. 5 Q. So it would be inaccurate to call 6 whatever you do as kidnapping when you are 7 deprogramming somebody? 8 A. If you want to get intellectual, 9 Mr. Bowles, you can do that. But again there have 10 been a number of so-called kidnappings by 11 deprogrammers that have gone to trial and the 12 majority of them the courts have simply 13 dismissed. Now, are the courts wrong? Did the 14 courts ignore the fact that there were 15 kidnappings, quote, kidnappings? I think it is a 16 legal term and you have to take it up with the 17 legal system. I am not a lawyer. I don't 18 consider the fact that I kidnapped anybody. 19 Q. So you never characterized what you 20 did with Eddy Fallon as a kidnapping? 21 A. No. Concerning what Eddy Fallon was 22 involved in and the suspicions we had which were 23 confirmed by a private investigator that was 24 watching him, I think really what we did was to 25 help him. 2489 1 Q. Let's take a look at your testimony 2 in the Wisel matter. This is Volume II on March 3 19, 1993. I am not certain who is questioning 4 you. It is either Mr. Leipold or Mr. Wilson. And 5 this is Exhibit-6 to this deposition. And it is 6 Page 176. I will hand it to counsel and if you 7 could please read from Line 13 through to Line 8 21. 9 A. Line 13 to what? 10 Q. I think I said Line 21. 11 A. 13. 12 "Q. Do you know how she 13 became involved -- we are 14 talking about Mary Alice 15 Chrnaloger I suppose. 16 "A. It was my 17 understanding when I got to 18 Eugene and after we had 19 kidnapped Mr. Fallon from his 20 home and drove him and he was 21 bound, although not bound in the 22 way that Eugene states in the 23 declaration, to Bellevue, 24 Washington that Mary Alice and 25 Shelly would be coming in on an 2490 1 airline later on in the day and 2 would come to the same house and 3 would be in charge of that 4 deprogramming. 5 "Q. Who arranged that? 6 "A. The father did." 7 Okay. Do you want me to go on? 8 Q. That's fine. So what did you mean 9 there when you said "kidnapping"? 10 A. At the time I had this deposition, I 11 forgot the date of this deposition, I was 12 referring to the snatching itself. You also have 13 to remember that back in March of 19 -- I may have 14 felt a particular way about something and I may 15 not feel that way today. Attitudes change. 16 People's ideas change. That's what humanity is 17 all about. Certainly the way that I see 18 Scientology today is not the way that I saw 19 Scientology in 1991, 1992. So again who would be 20 correct? What would be the correct feeling at 21 that time? 22 My feelings back then are different 23 than they are now. 24 Q. So in March you saw it as a 25 kidnapping; is that right? 2491 1 A. No. I was just describing the 2 situation at that time. I don't consider what I 3 did now was a kidnapping. I think we were helping 4 the individual. I am only sorry to see that 5 Mr. Fallon wasn't a Scientologist, because if he 6 was a Scientologist today I would be very happy of 7 the fact that it occurred. 8 Q. So my question to you is when you 9 made that statement in March of 1993 in the 10 deposition, did you believe you had kidnapped 11 somebody? 12 A. No. It is just how I described the 13 situation. 14 Q. So that's inaccurate -- is it 15 inaccurate at that time? 16 A. I guess it -- are you asking for my 17 opinion or are you asking for a legal term? 18 Q. I am asking when you made this 19 statement that you kidnapped this fellow, were you 20 making a true statement? 21 A. Mr. Bowles, I would say that at that 22 time considering the fact that if we had been 23 stopped by a police official and arrested we 24 probably would have been arrested for kidnapping, 25 a legal term. Whether we would have been charged 2492 1 with it, taken to court and convicted on it, it is 2 an entirely different matter. 3 As you know in most cases involving 4 kidnapped deprogrammings particularly with the 5 case of Rick Ross whom you very well know, very 6 intimately in some of the correspondence you have 7 written about him, they have dropped all the 8 charges against him on the Jason Scott kidnapping 9 even though you could call that a kidnapping. It 10 is just how I referenced the situation at the 11 time. You can see it as you wish. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Mr. Scarff, I ask you to hand 13 those to me so that -- 14 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I am not 15 thinking. It is getting late in the day. Sorry 16 about that. 17 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you. 18 BY MR. BOWLES: 19 Q. Let's take a look at this Eddy Fallon 20 incident a bit more. 21 A. Okay. 22 Q. The Paragraph 55 of Exhibit-9, again 23 this refers to Chris and I think we have 24 established that's Eddy Fallon, right? 25 A. Eddy Fallon that's correct. 2493 1 Q. Second sentence, surveilled the home; 2 is that right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. That's true? 5 A. We watched the house, yes. 6 Q. That was you and the father and who 7 else? 8 A. The gentleman from New Mexico and the 9 two security officials that he brought with him. 10 Q. Including the Ph.D. 11 A. That's who I am talking about from 12 New Mexico. He was a Ph.D. 13 Q. Did you have discussions before that 14 time with these individuals that indicated that 15 you were all risking arrest and prosecution for 16 your actions? 17 A. No, we didn't discuss it because I 18 think it was well aware that we were taking 19 something into our own hands, that if we were 20 stopped would result in our own arrest. But it 21 was a family situation and the father felt it was 22 necessary. You are dealing with a moral issue 23 versus something that is considered very familial 24 here. 25 Q. Last sentence, this is after your 2494 1 hearing about this yelling between the father and 2 the son. That's true, you unlocked the door and 3 snuck in the back-door? 4 A. Except for the last part where we 5 snuck into the house. I held the door open. 6 That's why you had two security people there. I 7 unlocked the door. 8 Q. You did not go in the house? 9 A. I recall opening the door and maybe 10 standing inside the house halfway, but I did not 11 walk into the house. That's why they had security 12 there. Security is the ones that, as you well 13 know, are the ones that actually do the 14 kidnapping. The father went in there and tried to 15 calm the son down. There was the two security 16 people. I don't recall whether the man from New 17 Mexico had gone in the house. I believe he did. 18 But I was there to open the door and to drive the 19 get-away van. 20 Q. 57 -- we have already been over 56 a 21 couple of times today. At least once. 57, there 22 is a struggle, you twisted his wrist and placed 23 handcuffs on him? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. You didn't twist the wrists? 2495 1 A. No. Because there were no handcuffs 2 involved in this kidnapping and deprogramming 3 whatsoever, no handcuffs at all. This isn't true. 4 Q. Haven't you testified before that you 5 twisted his wrists? 6 A. I don't believe so. 7 Q. Let's take a look at that transcript 8 in front of you, Page 1059, and this is referring 9 to Exhibit-13, same paragraph number. 10 A. Exhibit-13? 11 Q. Right. 12 A. We are in Exhibit-9. 13 Q. Let's go over to Exhibit-13. Same 14 paragraph number. 15 A. 57. What page, 19 -- okay. 16 Q. 1059. Paragraph 57, Exhibit-13, is 17 that in all substance and respects the same as 18 Paragraph 57 of Exhibit-9 except for the changing 19 of the words from "Chris" to "Eddy"? 20 A. I am sorry, I thought we were on 21 No. 59. 22 Q. We are on Exhibit-13, Paragraph 57. 23 A. 57. 24 Q. Right. Is that substantially the 25 same as the same paragraph number in Exhibit-9? 2496 1 A. Looks like word for word except for 2 the identification of Eddy. 3 Q. Right. So take a look at your answer 4 there on Page 1059, Lines 22 to 23. 5 A. Right. "57 is true with the 6 exception to the handcuffs involved." 7 Q. So are you now saying -- I understand 8 you say there is no handcuffs. But since you had 9 the opportunity to answer fully and truthfully 10 here, let's see if we can get this straight. Did 11 you twist his wrists or not? 12 A. No. And again I think you are 13 getting into word play here. 14 Q. Did somebody else twist his wrists? 15 A. If you want to break up the words 16 here, that's fine, but if you take that entire 17 sentence, the fact that no handcuffs involved, 18 there would be no reason to twist his wrists. 19 Why, would I twist his wrists if no handcuffs were 20 involved. It doesn't make sense to me. Does it 21 to you? 22 Q. It was your answer. 23 A. Mr. Bowles, didn't you learn anything 24 in grammar or high school or college? You have to 25 look at the entire sentence structure. If one 2497 1 part of the sentence structure doesn't exist then 2 it invalidates the entire sentence. There would 3 be no reason to twist his wrists to place on 4 handcuffs if in fact handcuffs never existed. 5 Q. To clarify your testimony is you 6 didn't twist his wrists to place handcuffs on him; 7 is that right? 8 A. That's always been my testimony, 9 sir. If you look at sentence structure, at least 10 I learned that in college. I would assume you 11 learned that in college too if you took English or 12 grammar. That's the sentence structure and you're 13 just chopping it up. 14 Q. I am just trying to get my testimony 15 straight? 16 A. It is my testimony and don't 17 misrepresent it, sir. 18 Q. So the rest of the paragraph is true, 19 "Eddy continued to struggle to try to get free"? 20 A. During the time he was in the van, 21 during the time he was being taken to the van, he 22 screamed, he was in pain, yes. I assume he was in 23 pain because he was screaming. 24 Q. You never laid a hand on him; is that 25 right? 2498 1 A. No, have not, did not. 2 Q. You just oversaw the whole thing; is 3 that right? 4 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 5 testimony. 6 THE WITNESS: That's not what I said. 7 BY MR. BOWLES: 8 Q. I am just asking -- 9 A. I have already told you and you don't 10 need to ask when I have already answered. You 11 chose not to listen to my answer so why give you 12 another answer? 13 Q. Were you running the show? 14 A. I set it up. I went to Eugene. From 15 that time on the gentleman from New Mexico was 16 running the show. In fact I have already said on 17 record that the security men involved were hired 18 by the gentleman from New Mexico. I have also 19 said on record, if you wish to refer to the 20 transcripts you have in front of you, yesterday 21 that when I arrived in Eugene, Oregon, the father, 22 the man from New Mexico and the security team were 23 already present. And they had taken him. I was 24 the driver. I was there to help but I wasn't 25 running the show. 2499 1 Q. You didn't organize it at all? 2 A. Well, yes, actually I was because I 3 was the one in charge with the father because the 4 father said that he had said he had spoken to 5 Melinda or someone else within the Cult Awareness 6 Network that told him that they had a list of 7 deprogrammers and that I was at the bottom of the 8 list and the reason that they called me even 9 though I was at the bottom of the list was that it 10 was the holidays and no one else wanted to touch 11 it. 12 Also I have spoken to Adrian Greek 13 about it and Adrian said don't touch it because 14 the man evidently is volatile, he is hysterical, 15 he can't control his attitude and behaviors and I 16 was told not to touch it. But I felt sorry for 17 this man so I went ahead and did it. 18 Once I got to Eugene it was 19 practically out of my hands. The person who in 20 fact exhibited the fact that they were in charge 21 was the father. I think throughout my testimony 22 it shows that. 23 The father basically wanted to be in 24 charge of the entire thing. That's why he got 25 into problems with Shelly and Mary Alice 2500 1 Chrnaloger and myself. Because we were not only 2 trying to calm Eddy down but we had to try to calm 3 down the father on many occasions. 4 Q. You took this guy across state lines, 5 right? 6 A. Yes, we did. We drove him outside of 7 Oregon and took him into Washington. Eddy was 8 also let go. Eddy never went to the police. Eddy 9 never had us charged and arrested with any crime. 10 You may wonder why that never took place, sir. 11 Q. At the time you took him across state 12 lines, he was resisting, wasn't he? 13 A. Yes, he was. 14 Q. He was terrified, wasn't he? 15 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, calls for 16 speculation. 17 THE WITNESS: At the time I suspected that 18 he was terrified, but then as we were involved in 19 the deprogramming, we saw the relationship which 20 actually occurred between him and his father. I 21 really believe he was more angry with the fact 22 that his father was doing this to him more than 23 anything else. Because it was very clear to us 24 that the father misrepresented to us the nature of 25 their relationship. That in fact it was not 2501 1 close. In fact it was very dysfunctional and 2 estranged. And we only learned that after we were 3 into the deprogramming. And that's why Eddy was 4 let go according to Mary Alice Chrnaloger. 5 BY MR. BOWLES: 6 Q. But you weren't involved in that? 7 A. I was involved and it is also on 8 record that I stepped out of it and went home and 9 it continued even when I had gone home. 10 Q. Did you ever threaten -- 11 A. No. No. In fact I went into the 12 room and I tried calming him down. And I recall 13 going into the room and apologizing to him for the 14 fact that we did not have a better control over 15 his father. Because it was clear to me, although 16 I couldn't prove it, only from what I saw on his 17 face, that his father had assaulted him. 18 Q. That was later, right? 19 A. Yes. Two or three days later. 20 Q. It was back in Washington? 21 A. Excuse me? 22 Q. That was in Washington, right? 23 A. The deprogramming took place in 24 Washington, yes, sir. 25 Q. You were paid for that, weren't you? 2502 1 A. Yes, I was. I was paid for my time. 2 Q. How much were you paid? 3 A. $300. Something like 300. Maybe 4 350. It is around that amount. 5 Q. Pay taxes on that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Never declared it as income? 8 A. No. It is almost relevant to all the 9 things that happened in Scientology when people 10 don't pay taxes or claim it as income tax. 11 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 12 A. It is the same thing. 13 Q. So that was something you falsely 14 reported to the government on that; is that right? 15 A. Well, yes. It is relevant to the 16 time I was in Scientology where I continually 17 falsely represented myself to the government. 18 Q. This took place while you were in 19 Scientology, this deprogramming? 20 A. No, sir. I am saying that during the 21 time I was in Scientology I at the instructions of 22 individuals like you yourself where 23 misrepresentation to government officials happens 24 all the time. What is the difference? I don't 25 know why you are beating on me because I am 2503 1 misrepresenting myself at this time when it 2 happens in Scientology as normal routine on a 3 day-to-day basis. Of course we don't have to get 4 into that. That has already been substantiated 5 not only by the Internal Revenue Service but by 6 law enforcement entities around the country. One 7 only has to look at the numerous court records. 8 Q. Is that your answer? 9 A. Yep, it is my answer. 10 Q. So you were not a member of the 11 church when you took on this deprogramming; is 12 that right? 13 A. I had had some association with the 14 church prior to this. 15 Q. But while you did this were you in 16 the Church of Scientology? 17 A. I had never left the Church of 18 Scientology. I had never ended my formal 19 association with the Church of Scientology at this 20 time, but, no, I was not intimately involved with 21 anyone in the Church of Scientology at this time. 22 Q. And you have never spied on the 23 church, have you? 24 A. Mr. Bowles, please. You constantly 25 bring up spying and infiltration. Those are 2504 1 subjects of your own intense paranoid view of the 2 outside world. You live in your own reality. 3 Spying and infiltration. Sir, stop reading comic 4 books. 5 Q. Let's go back to your testimony where 6 we were covering this the other day. Remember the 7 other day when you said you had made a correction 8 and all of that was just a misprint? 9 A. Sir, I have been here 14 days of 10 deposition. You are asking me to remember 11 something that happened at another day at a 12 certain time. I am not perfect. Why don't you -- 13 Q. Remember this is Exhibit-3 to the 14 deposition, Page 22. Before we get to that, let's 15 authenticate something. What is this? Excuse 16 me. 17 Do you have Exhibit-3, Mr. Court 18 Reporter? 19 A. This looks like corrections that I 20 made to the September 11th, 92 declaration I gave 21 to Dan Leipold in Portland, Oregon. 22 Q. Take a look through the whole thing. 23 Is it complete? 24 A. I believe so. 25 MR. CALHOUN: I will object to the question 2505 1 as vague and ambiguous. 2 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 3 BY MR. BOWLES: 4 Q. Has all the pages? 5 A. I believe so. I don't recall how 6 many pages I sent, but it looks complete. 7 MR. BOWLES: We will mark that as the next 8 in order. 9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 195 10 was marked for identification and is 11 bound separately.) 12 BY MR. BOWLES: 13 Q. I, Mr. Scarff, if we do a spot check 14 it does in fact match. 15 On Exhibit 3, go to Page 5. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. See at Line 5 the word "Cleaver"? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And look at the correction on the 20 first line of correction on the first page, do you 21 see that? 22 A. I see three pages -- yes. 23 Q. Page 5, Line 5? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Eunice Kliger? 2506 1 A. Kliger. 2 Q. Another spot check, let's go to 3 Page 22. I think that's going to be four pages 4 hence. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. Now, Line 4 on your corrections, you 7 see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "Rephrased, 'article May 6th, 1991 by 10 Richard Baylor.'" And that fits at Line 4 there 11 on the actual Exhibit-3? 12 A. Yes. Because it omitted the year. 13 Q. Okay. You made another correction on 14 Page 22, didn't you? At Line 18. Added the word 15 "Greek" after Anne and Adrian? 16 A. Oh, yes, I did. 17 Q. And then the next correction is on 18 the next page, 23, Line 3? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. You wanted the words "Guardian's 21 Office" to be capitalized, right? 22 A. Right. 23 Q. Is there anywhere on this correct on 24 Exhibit-195 where you have made the correction you 25 have claimed to have made the other day? 2507 1 A. I didn't understand your question. 2 Q. Let's go back to that testimony. I 3 want you to read from Page 2025, Line 12 to Page 4 2027, Line 2. 5 Counsel. 6 A. "Q. Let's go back to 7 Exhibit-3, Page 22. 8 "A. Okay. We have been 9 there. 10 "Q. All right. 'I was 11 spying on the Academy of Kung Fu 12 which was owned by a 13 Scientologist, Fred King, and 14 they discovered who I was.' So 15 your testimony is that you 16 actually said 'I was not spying 17 on the Academy of Kung Fu which 18 was owned by the Scientologist 19 Fred King and they discovered 20 who I was'; is that right? 21 "A. What I am saying, 22 Mr. Bowles, and I repeat it on 23 record for your benefit since 24 you have a hard time 25 understanding what I am saying 2508 1 here today. 2 "Q. I just asked you yes 3 or no, is that what you meant. 4 "A. I can't answer that 5 with a yes or no. If you are 6 looking for a closed-in yes or 7 no, I can't answer that. I am 8 not -- I am trying to give you a 9 truthful answer here. If you 10 want to interrupt because you 11 are afraid of the true, then 12 sobeit. 13 "Q. I would like you to 14 give me a straight answer. The 15 question was you actually said 16 in the statement when 17 Mr. Leipold asked you the 18 question, you actually said 'I 19 was not spying on the Academy of 20 Kung Fu which was owned by a 21 Scientologist Fred King and they 22 discovered who I was'? 23 "A. I can't answer that 24 with a yes or no. I want to see 25 the rest of the documentation 2509 1 that accompanied this at the 2 time I signed it. And when I 3 see it I will show you what it 4 says. But I don't have it and 5 neither do you. So I think it 6 is pretty unfair for you to make 7 me come up to some kind of 8 speculative answer when the 9 transcript is not complete. 10 Show me a complete portion of 11 the transcript, Mr. Bowles, 12 since you are the one that has 13 chosen to focus in on this, and 14 I will be happy to answer it. 15 Stop playing cat and mouse 16 games. " 17 Q. Do you remember that testimony? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And that's an accurate transcription? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Let's take a look here at Page 2010 22 of the same day. And could you read from after I 23 quote from the passage on Page 2206 Exhibit-3, 24 could you read your answer starting at Line 17 of 25 2010 and it continues to Line 4 of the following 2510 1 page. 2 A. "A. If you notice the 3 correction of the nine pages it 4 will say 'A. I was not 5 spying." Again that's why you 6 need the correction pages. 7 If -- you know it would be 8 really -- it would be more 9 convenient if we had those nine 10 pages. And certainly if I am 11 given some time today I will 12 have Mr. Calhoun or someone call 13 Leipold and see if he will fax 14 those up here so we can have the 15 benefit of those nine corrected 16 pages. But this is a typo. 17 "Q. You inserted the 18 word 'not' before 'spying'? 19 "A. Yes, that's 20 correct." 21 Q. So with 195 before you, do you see 22 anywhere where you added the word "not" before 23 "spying" on Page 22, Line 19? 24 A. No, no, I misspoke. 25 Q. You misspoke? 2511 1 A. I misspoke. But I wasn't spying on 2 the Academy of Kung Fu. I made that very clear in 3 this deposition. 4 Q. But you admitted before that you were 5 spying on the Academy of Kung Fu under oath? 6 A. No, I didn't. 7 Q. You didn't? 8 A. No, I didn't. 9 Q. That wasn't under oath to Mr. Leipold 10 on September 11, 1992? 11 A. It was under oath but that doesn't 12 mean that I may have misspoke. To err is human. 13 Have you ever heard of that? You have erred many 14 times but you don't want to admit it. 15 Q. So that was a false statement there 16 to Mr. Leipold? 17 A. Mr. Bowles, grow up and act your age 18 not your shoe size. There is a difference between 19 making a mistake which is human and telling a lie 20 which you evidently can't get through your thick, 21 moronic head. There is a big difference. If you 22 can come up with any type of evidence showing how 23 I was spying, how you can even spy on a karate 24 academy when the only presence I had there was to 25 do karate stuff, what was I spying on, what color 2512 1 uniforms they were wearing? What could I actually 2 spy on in a karate academy when I was sparring 3 with other individuals. You tell me. You are the 4 brilliant person here. You seem to think you are 5 so brilliant. Why don't you tell me what I could 6 actually spy on. 7 There was no point in my going to a 8 karate academy working out with a bunch of people 9 on a karate floor sparring and kicking and 10 spying. 11 I made a mistake. I am sorry. I 12 oversaw it. That's human. People make mistakes. 13 The Church of Scientology and yourself has made 14 plenty of mistakes. The only problem is you 15 deliberately make them. I made a mistake here. 16 If you can't accept it and you can't get it 17 through your thick led that being a human being 18 means you make mistakes, sobeit. The only person 19 you are fooling is yourself and you are going to 20 have to live with that, not me. 21 Q. That's your answer? That's your 22 answer, sir? 23 A. That is my answer, Tim. 24 Q. So what did you mean when you said, 25 "I was spying on the Academy of Kung Fu which is 2513 1 owned by a Scientologist and they discovered who I 2 was"? 3 A. Excuse me? 4 Q. You did make that statement to 5 Mr. Leipold, didn't you? 6 A. No. I told him I was not spying. I 7 made a mistake. 8 Q. You told him you were not spying? 9 A. I told him I was not spying and they 10 discovered who I was. In fact, as I have said on 11 record already too is that Fred King brought me to 12 his office. Fred King said he knew from a friend 13 of his that I had attended Positive Action Center 14 meetings and I was a friend of Adrian and Anne 15 Greek. That's why I was taken to the office. Not 16 for the purpose of spying. 17 In fact it was Mr. King and 18 Mr. Mecums that later went into the Positive 19 Action Center playing part of a tape that was done 20 on me at the time he was trying to get me to sign 21 a phony declaration prepared by the Guardian's 22 Office, a false declaration, a deliberately false 23 declaration, an unlawful declaration, that they 24 went in there and played half a tape but refused 25 to play the rest of it and then left. 2514 1 A very sinister, very insidious and 2 unlawful activity. There was absolutely no reason 3 for anyone to walk into the Academy of Kung Fu, 4 work out with a bunch of people practicing 5 karate. I don't know, what would you spy on sir? 6 Was I trying to find out what type of underwear he 7 was wearing? Is that why I was spying? How can 8 you spy on anyone on a karate floor? Makes no 9 sense. 10 Q. That was not my question. 11 A. And you have asked -- 12 Q. Did you not state under oath to 13 Mr. Leipold on September 11, 1992 "I was spying on 14 the Academy of Kung Fu which was owned by a 15 Scientologist, Fred King, and they discovered who 16 I was"? 17 A. No, sir, I did not. And following 18 the transcription of this deposition I was given 19 an opportunity to look through it and correct it. 20 I did it. I missed it. I am sorry. It should 21 have been in the corrections. It was not. Simply 22 because I happened to glance over and not do it 23 doesn't mean that I am lying. It simply means I 24 made a mistake. I didn't catch it. People do 25 those things when it comes to large transcripts 2515 1 like this. I have spoken to -- Mr. Bowles, excuse 2 me, do not interrupt me, sir. 3 Q. Go ahead. 4 A. I have spoken to other people in 5 other depositions who have made the very same 6 mistakes where they miss something in the 7 transcripts. This is a very large transcript. I 8 am sure you have made mistakes too but you just 9 don't have the gall or courage to admit, do you? 10 The way you are looking at me tells me you don't. 11 Let's talk about some integrity here, Mr. Bowles. 12 I made a mistake and overlooked at 13 it. If you want to hinge on this and play with 14 it, take it somewhere and play with it. I am not 15 going to answer any more questions with regards to 16 this. It has been fairly answered and I have done 17 so truthfully. 18 Q. When you testified the other day that 19 the correction list for this particular sworn 20 statement which showed your exact testimony and 21 all the corrections made and the accurate 22 testimony, that was a false statement, wasn't it? 23 A. Asked and answered. 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes 25 the testimony and the record. 2516 1 THE WITNESS: I am going to say asked and 2 answered. 3 BY MR. BOWLES: 4 Q. So you are refusing to answer that 5 question? 6 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 7 Q. Exhibit-67. Exhibit-67 is a set of 8 documents appearing to refer to a Jim Boland and 9 it continues for nine pages with some attachments 10 including a directory and some legal documents 11 following it. 12 Mr. Scarff, did you prepare this 13 document? 14 A. Yes. I did. Except for the 15 accompanying documents. I prepared the directory 16 and the affidavit here, but not -- naturally not 17 the county documents that are attached to it. 18 Q. Did you attach those documents as 19 part of your statement, sir? 20 A. I believe I did, yes. 21 Q. Did you prepare it on April 7, 1992? 22 A. I believe so. It was just prior to 23 the time that I had been informed by David 24 Butterworth that Mr. Tim Bowles was preparing to 25 fly Eugene Ingram to Portland, Oregon to do a 2517 1 deposition -- not a deposition, a -- what is the 2 word for it. I am even losing a word here. He 3 was going to interview Jim Boland to get a 4 declaration on Jim Boland on what happened with 5 him. 6 Q. What portion of the first paragraph 7 is true? 8 A. I believe it was in the spring of 9 '83. I believe it to be the month of March when 10 I was asked by Anne Greek to assist her in the 11 deprogramming of a young man from a destructive 12 Bible based cult. 13 Q. The whole paragraph is true? 14 A. I believe so. I believe the month 15 was March. Again I am speculating here, but I 16 believe it was the spring of 1983. It is further 17 documented later on by Mr. Gaw about when it 18 actually occurred. 19 Q. By Mr. Whom, I am sorry? 20 A. John Gaw. He is the investigator you 21 sent up. 22 Q. I thought you just said Ingram. 23 A. No. John Gaw. I was told Mr. Ingram 24 was going to come to Portland. I was assured 25 numerous times by David Butterworth that he would 2518 1 call me before Mr. Ingram came up but money was 2 tight and he couldn't come up. And then in a 3 conversation I had on a social basis with Gwen 4 Mayfield two weeks later I come to find out that 5 in fact John Gaw himself had come up and got a 6 declaration from Jim Boland and the matter was not 7 discussed with me. 8 Then I spoke with Jim Boland and got 9 the details of that actual visit. 10 Q. Which so-called destructive 11 Bible-based-cult did he belong to? 12 A. The Bible-based-cult which Anne Greek 13 described as destructive was the Prince of Peace 14 Church. And I have been to the Prince of Peace 15 Church. 16 Q. Is it a Bible-based-cult in your 17 opinion? 18 A. No. I believe it is a very 19 fundamentalist Christian organization. 20 Q. What is the difference between a 21 Bible-based-cult and a fundamentalist Christian 22 organization? 23 A. You need to go to the individuals 24 that believe it is a cult and ask them. 25 Q. Are you familiar with any Bible based 2519 1 cults? 2 A. You are walking a fine line there. 3 In terms of anyone, how they describe a cult is 4 only someone that lives under a very strong 5 structural organization where independent 6 decisions are not permitted, that the decisions 7 fall upon the individuals in charge. And that any 8 decision when it comes to marriage, when one can 9 work and so on, is made by the legal group. That 10 is kind of the basis for what a cult is in the 11 minds of some people. 12 And I have said in the past, and I 13 continue to believe this, that there are very 14 fundamentalist religious groups out there 15 particularly with what people have referred to as 16 sheparding groups, and I used to belong to a 17 sheparding group in Florida, where those same 18 types of elements existed. And I certainly didn't 19 believe at the time I was in a cult that there 20 were people that would look at my situation and 21 say I was a member of a cult. So it is based on 22 self-definition. 23 Q. What do you mean by 24 "self-definition," definition of a deprogrammer? 25 A. If Mr. Bowles, you believe I am a 2520 1 criminal deprogrammer and that makes you happy, 2 sir, then by your own self-definition I am a 3 criminal deprogrammer. If Mr. Calhoun sits there 4 and looks out and says "Gary Scarff is not a 5 criminal deprogrammer and has his own definition 6 of what a deprogrammer is," then by his own 7 definition Mr. Calhoun has a right to believe as 8 he wishes and you two are going to conflict. So 9 who is right. 10 Q. I am asking for your opinion. 11 A. I just told you. You asked me what 12 self-definition is and I have told you. By your 13 own self-definition you can evaluate me and see me 14 anyway you please. 15 Q. So as a deprogrammer you make that 16 judgment as to whether something is a cult or not 17 and therefore, the persons inside of it are then 18 subject for deprogramming; is that right? 19 A. Mr. Bowles, I am not a deprogrammer. 20 I was involved in some deprogrammings. I was not 21 the deprogrammers in the case. You know of some 22 deprogrammers. In fact you are on Rick Ross' tail 23 right now trying to get him jailed. Why don't you 24 call Rick Ross. You know where he lives. You 25 know his phone number. Call him up and ask him, 2521 1 sir. 2 Q. I am asking you. 3 A. I am not a deprogrammer. You are 4 asking the wrong person. 5 Q. Have you ever been a deprogrammer? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Never been a -- 8 A. Define to me, sir, what a 9 deprogrammer is, and I will tell you if I was one. 10 Q. What is your definition? 11 A. Sir, I asked you a question. What is 12 a deprogrammer? 13 Q. This is your deposition, sir? 14 A. No, sir. Well, it is my deposition, 15 sir, but I cannot tell you in answer to a question 16 if I am something if you cannot explain to me what 17 it is. Explain to me what it is and I will tell 18 you. 19 Q. We are not go going to play that. 20 A. Well, then, I don't have an answer 21 for you because if you won't define what you are 22 going on about -- 23 Q. Exhibit-17 has a heading written by 24 you, "Jim Boland, kidnapping, deprogramming." 25 What did you mean by that? 2522 1 A. It means -- 2 MR. CALHOUN: I will object for the record. 3 I believe counsel misspoke when he characterized 4 this as Exhibit-17. I believe it is 67. 5 MR. BOWLES: 67, thank you. 6 THE WITNESS: Because that's what it was. 7 It was a kidnapping deprogramming. That's what I 8 saw it as. 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. What did you mean by that? 11 A. Because the purpose of this action 12 was the fact that Jim Boland was not kidnapped. 13 He was in fact detained but it was my belief that 14 when you detain somebody against their will, that 15 at that time it was a kidnapping. And it was 16 referred to as a kidnapping by the Greeks. 17 Deprogramming was that he was there for the 18 purpose of being deprogrammed from a destructive 19 Bible-based cult. That's how the situation was 20 evaluated. You are getting into word play here 21 again. 22 Q. So this set of events, if you are 23 going to attest to them to be true, will tell us 24 what a deprogramming is in your mind; is that 25 right? This will help us with a definition as you 2523 1 understood it, is that right? 2 A. Yes. It will also help you 3 understand where Anne Greek's mind-set was at the 4 time when all this was occurring too. 5 MR. BOWLES: I think this is a good time for 6 a break. 7 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 8 The date is August 12, 1993. The time is 9 4:16 P.M. End of Tape 2. Volume XIII. 10 Continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 11 (Recess taken.) 12 VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the record. The 13 day is August 12, 1993. The time is 4:40 P.M. 14 Beginning of Tape 3. Volume XIII. Continuing 15 deposition of Mr. Scarff. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. We will get back to the Boland 18 declaration when we have time to look at the whole 19 thing. 20 Exhibit-23, Counsel. This is the 21 staff contract. 22 Mr. Scarff, you were on Scientology 23 staff at the mission there at Portland; is that 24 right? 25 A. I was told to sign a contract for the 2524 1 purpose of getting discounts on courses and 2 volunteering time at the church when I was 3 available. So does that mean you were on staff at 4 the mission there? 5 A. I assume so, yes. 6 Q. How long were you on staff? 7 A. I only did it for a week. I wasn't 8 interested. I left. 9 Q. And what was your position? 10 A. I started out as a receptionist 11 answering telephones. 12 Q. Is that all you did? 13 A. That's all I did, sir. 14 Q. You are sure you did nothing else? 15 A. I don't know what title they may have 16 imposed or me at the time, but that's what I 17 recall. 18 Q. And you just left? 19 A. It is referred to as blowing your 20 post, but, yes. 21 Q. You blew your post. Does that mean 22 you left without talking to anybody about it or 23 making arrangements to leave? 24 A. What do you mean making arrangements 25 to leave? 2525 1 Q. What does blew your post mean? 2 A. You are a Scientologist, you explain 3 that to me. 4 Q. You used the term. 5 A. It is my understanding that what I 6 did, sir, is defined in the Church of Scientology 7 as blowing your post without permission. And at 8 that time given the fact I was a full-time student 9 at Portland State University I didn't feel I 10 needed anyone's permission to leave. So I left. 11 Q. Were there any repercussions from 12 that action relative to the Church of Scientology? 13 A. I got a lot of phone calls, a lot of 14 angry phone calls, but no physical repercussions, 15 no. 16 Q. Were you taking courses at the time? 17 A. I believe I was, yes. I believe I 18 was taking one course. 19 Q. And you discontinued taking the 20 course even after so-called blowing? 21 A. I am sorry? 22 Q. Did you just continue taking this 23 course after you, as you say, blow, blew? 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes 25 the testimony. 2526 1 THE WITNESS: I said I left, sir. I didn't 2 continue at the church after a week or a week and 3 a half after I left. And I did discontinue the 4 course, yes 5 BY MR. BOWLES: 6 Q. At the same time? 7 A. I believe it was around the same 8 time, yes, that's correct. 9 Q. Around the same time or at the same 10 time? 11 A. Around the same time, sir. I don't 12 know whether it was right on the same time that I 13 left. I was in school full time at the time and 14 that was more important to me than this. 15 Q. What course were you taking? 16 A. I don't recall. I recall around that 17 time that I was taking several courses, but I 18 don't recall specifically what course I was taking 19 at this time. I was in school full time. That 20 was more important to me, sir. 21 Q. Let's take a look at some testimony 22 you gave on direct. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. With regard to Paragraph 2, 25 Exhibit-23, if you could please read into the 2527 1 record from, and I will hand this through counsel 2 to you -- actually you have it there. It is 3 Page 913, starting at Line 23 and extending to 4 915, Line 10. 5 A. "Q. So did there come a 6 time when you signed the 7 contract with the Church of 8 Scientology? 9 "A. Yes, it was March 10 3rd of '84. 11 "Q. If you will turn 12 your attention -- 13 "A. I am sorry. 14 "Q. If you turn your 15 attention, please, to what 16 previously been marked as 17 Exhibit-23, would you tell me 18 whether you recognize that 19 document. 20 "A. It looks very much 21 like the documents I signed, 22 however, it wasn't two pages 23 like this. It was a long 24 9-1/2-by-14 page and there was 25 only one page. But it looks 2528 1 very much like the document that 2 I signed back then and John 3 Carmichael was the one that 4 signed it, yes. 5 "Q. Does it look like a 6 photocopy of the document you 7 signed? 8 "A. Yes, it is. Again 9 it is two pages in the exhibit 10 where it was only one page. 11 "Q. Is that your 12 signature on the second page? 13 "A. Yes, sir. 14 "Q. In the various 15 little initials throughout, what 16 are those? 17 "A. Those are my 18 initials. 19 "Q. And have you seen 20 John Carmichael's signature 21 before? 22 "A. Yes, I have. 23 "Q. And the other 24 signature at the bottom of the 25 second page, do you recognize 2529 1 that signature? 2 "A. Answer it looks very 3 much like John because one of 4 the comedies that we talked 5 about quite a bit at that time 6 is we referred to John as 7 Dr. John because relating back 8 to experiences that we have had 9 with physicians who don't know 10 how to write. And we call him 11 Dr. John because he scribbled 12 whatever he wrote." 13 Q. Thank you, that's it. 14 Is there anything inaccurate about 15 that transcription? 16 A. No, because if you read Page 914, 17 Line 7 where it says: 18 "A. It looks very much 19 like the documents I signed." 20 Q. All I am asking you, there are no 21 typos on the transcription; it is accurate as to 22 what you have testified to? 23 A. As I have testified, and if you want 24 to go on in the transcript rather than cut me off, 25 I already said there were some problems with this 2530 1 copy right here. Do you want me to go on through 2 the transcript? 3 Q. All I am -- 4 A. Of course you don't want the truth, 5 Mr. Bowles. 6 Q. We will get to that. I hope to get 7 to the truth soon. We haven't yet. 8 A. Mr. Bowles, the truth is you are a 9 liar and you are a crook. You deserve to be 10 behind bars. And if justice prevails, you are 11 going to be losing your license real soon and you 12 will be behind bars and the world will celebrate. 13 Q. Let's just answer the question. 14 A. You can insult me, the witness, but 15 you can't stand to be insulted. 16 Q. Let's get to the questions. 17 A. Of course not. Play the violin for 18 Mr. Bowles here. He is going to cry to mommy 19 next. 20 Q. 913 to 915, is there any 21 typographical error in your transcript there or is 22 that an accurate transcription of what you said to 23 Mr. Berry on direct exam? 24 A. I have problems with 914 which I 25 later address in the transcript. 2531 1 Q. All I am asking -- 2 A. I just answered your question. If 3 you don't like it, go fuck yourself. That's my 4 answer, sir. Because I am not going to toy with 5 your little games any more. It is later addressed 6 in the transcript. You choose not to refer to it. 7 Q. We will get to that part of the 8 transcripts. All I am asking you now, is this an 9 accurate transcription of what you told Mr. Berry 10 on that day by the court reporter? 11 A. I believe it is and I believe it is 12 later explained in the transcript. 13 Q. Thank you. 14 A. You are so welcomed. 15 Q. So you testified to Mr. Berry that 16 you have seen John Carmichael's signature before, 17 this is it. Dr. John, it was a scribble; is that 18 correct? 19 A. What I told Mr. Berry, that's 20 correct. 21 Q. And you recognize your own signature 22 on that second page? 23 A. No, I do not recognize my own 24 signature. 25 Q. That's what you told Mr. Berry; isn't 2532 1 it? 2 A. No, Mr. Bowles. Don't be an idiot. 3 You are sure showing yourself to be one. It says 4 Garry L. Scarff. I would assume that's my 5 signature because it says Garry L. Scarff. I 6 remember I signed a contract like this. So I 7 would assume that's my signature. The only 8 problem here, Mr. Bowles, is that I don't spell my 9 name that way. I have two R's in my name, sir. 10 Q. Let's look at Page 914 at Line 17. 11 "Q. Is that your 12 signature on the second page? 13 "A. Yes, sir." 14 A. And it is later explained that it is 15 not actually my signature, sir. And I prefaced 16 that. The only thing is you don't want to address 17 it. You want to play semantics here. 18 Q. So when you answered yes, sir, this 19 is your signature on the second page, was that 20 untrue? 21 A. What I was saying this is Garry L. 22 Scarff and to me that is Garry L. Scarff's 23 signature. 24 Q. So it is true that that is Garry L. 25 Scarff's signature? 2533 1 A. It says "Gary L. Scarff" but the only 2 problem is I don't sign my name that way. 3 Secondly, I have two R's in my name. I have 4 always spelled it with two R's and it says here 5 one R. 6 Q. Okay. 7 A. Are you sure it is okay? 8 Q. I am wondering, Mr. Scarff. 9 A. You have been wondering for your 10 entire legal career, I think. 11 Q. Let's go to -- 12 A. And so has everybody else in the 13 room. 14 Q. Page 1865 in the transcript, and I 15 will see if I can find that for us. 16 A. The truth hurts, doesn't it? 17 MR. CALHOUN: August 6th? 18 MR. BOWLES: Yes, August 6th. 19 Q. So, Mr. Scarff, I am going to hand 20 this through counsel. You can read from Page 21 1865, Line 3 through to 1868 and that's Line 10. 22 A. Where would you like me to start, 23 Tim? 24 Q. 1865, Line 3. 25 A. One second. To what page? 2534 1 Q. 1868, Line 10. 2 A. "Q. Now, take a look at 3 the first page of Exhibit-23. 4 And look at what is marked as 5 Item No. 7. As you will see, if 6 I can point it will be easier 7 although the record will be a 8 little confused. But over here, 9 here in those three areas, are 10 those initials? 11 "A. I would presume so. 12 I don't remember. 13 "Q. Well, does that 14 appear to be your initial, the 15 signature of your initials? 16 "A. I will say that I 17 presume so but I don't remember. 18 "Q. I am not asking 19 whether you remember signing 20 it. I am asking whether that 21 appears to be. 22 "A. It appears, yes. It 23 appears to be my initials 24 because my name is Garry L. 25 Scarff and the initials say GLS. 2535 1 "Q. Well, does that 2 signature of those initials 3 appear to be your handwriting? 4 "A. Appears to be my 5 handwriting, yes. 6 "Q. Now, turning to the 7 second page of Exhibit-23, there 8 is two other places, one of 9 which says 'I have carefully 10 read the items of this general 11 release and fully understand 12 them. Please initial.' There 13 is an initial on that line. We 14 are looking at the second page 15 of exhibit -- 16 "A. I am comparing the 17 initials from the first page to 18 the second page. And I see 19 that. For example, the L is 20 different on the second page 21 than the first page. The G is 22 written differently on the 23 second page than the first page 24 in different places. So I am 25 going to assume, yes, I signed 2536 1 this at the time, but I am not 2 sure because the initials are 3 written differently on both 4 pages. 5 "Q. Take a look at 6 the -- towards the end of the 7 document where it says 8 'signature of applicant.' Is 9 that your signature on the line 10 above that? 11 "A. I am going to say 12 again, sir, that I would presume 13 it is because it says 'Garry 14 Lynn Scarff' and because I 15 recall signing the document 16 during the time. However, the G 17 is written in a way that I do 18 not sign my name. 19 "Q. Well, does that 20 appear to be your signature or 21 not? 22 "A. Please preface that, 23 what you mean by appears. If I 24 am saying that I believe it is 25 but I am not positive, would 2537 1 that also mean that it appears? 2 "Q. Well -- 3 "A. I don't know the 4 legal definitions. 5 "Q. Let me ask it this 6 way: Does the signature that is 7 on the line 'signature of 8 applicant' opposite the date of 9 March 4, 1984, does that look 10 like your signature? 11 "A. It does with the 12 exception of how the G is 13 written because I don't sign it 14 in that manner. Also since I -- 15 as far as I can remember, I sign 16 my name G A R R Y. Here it is 17 G A R Y. So I am going to 18 assume, and I am not positive, 19 that the document that I signed 20 was rewritten by somebody 21 else -- 22 "Q. So are you saying -- 23 "A. -- and resigned. 24 "Q. Excuse me, are you 25 saying that Exhibit-23 is a 2538 1 forgery? 2 "A. That is my 3 assumption, yes, sir. Simply 4 because the initials are 5 different, the way that I signed 6 my name is difference plus I 7 have always spelled my name, and 8 you can verify this with my 9 parents, I sign my name with two 10 R's even though my birth name is 11 spelled with one R. This is 12 G A R Y." 13 Q. Keep going to Line 10. 14 A. "Q. Now, do you 15 recognize this signature on the 16 bottom of the page above the 17 line that is signed John 18 Carmichael? 19 "A. No, sir, I have 20 never seen a signature with John 21 Carmichael's name on it. I 22 wasn't provided a copy of this 23 as far as I can remember. 24 "Q. But to the best of 25 your recollection John 2539 1 Carmichael signed your staff 2 contract? 3 "A. Yes, sir." 4 Q. Thank you. 5 A. You are welcome. 6 Q. So firstly going back to 914, let's 7 go back to 914 of the transcript for August 2nd. 8 A. What page was it? 9 Q. 914. 10 "Q. Line 17, is that your signature 11 on the second page? 12 "A. Yes, sir." 13 So which is it, Mr. Scarff, is it 14 your signature or not? 15 A. I have told you before, Mr. Bowles, 16 that when I saw the signature it said "Garry L. 17 Scarff," I assumed that was my signature, yes. In 18 closer analysis it is not. 19 Q. If you said it was, it is untrue; is 20 that right? 21 A. I am sorry? 22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes -- 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. When you said it was -- when you said 25 it was your signature, that was untrue, correct? 2540 1 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes 2 the testimony. 3 THE WITNESS: I have said already, I 4 believe, three times, Mr. Bowles, and hopefully 5 you are going to hear it this time -- unplug your 6 ears, okay? Unplug them. 7 It appeared to be my signature, but 8 under close examination it was not. Because that 9 is not the way I spell my name, first of all 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. So this is just sloppy testimony on 12 your part on direct examination; is that right? 13 A. No. In fact I have spoken with a 14 number of ex-members of the Church of Scientology, 15 some of them former high-ranking members of the 16 Church of Scientology who said it was normal 17 policy within the Church of Scientology that if a 18 contract was not legible they simply destroyed it 19 and rewrote it and resigned it and that numerous 20 forgeries took place. And that's common practice 21 within the Church of Scientology International and 22 that my case is no different. That has happened 23 many, many times before. And I have former 24 high-ranking members of the Church of Scientology 25 who are willing to attest to that. So I am sure 2541 1 that will come out in trial. 2 Q. This is just sloppy testimony on your 3 part that this was your signature; is that right? 4 A. No, sir, it is not sloppy. If you 5 want to characterize it as that, that is your 6 business and it is fully expected coming from a 7 man like you. What I said is I looked at it, I 8 glanced at it, I looked at it and said yes, that's 9 my signature. Only after I analyzed it by you 10 telling me to analyze it letter by letter by 11 letter, by signature did I realize, no, it is 12 not. 13 Q. So that was the case for your 14 testimony on direct, it was kind of a brush-over? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Secondly, let's go to Page 915, 17 question, Line 1. 18 "The signature at the 19 bottom of the second page, do 20 you recognize that signature? 21 "A. It looks very much 22 like John because one of the 23 comedies we talked about quite a 24 bit at that time referred to 25 John as Dr. John because 2542 1 relating back to experiences we 2 have had with physicians who 3 don't know how to write. And we 4 call him Dr. John because he 5 scribbled whatever he wrote." 6 You testified the other day, 7 Page 1868. 8 "Q. Now, do you 9 recognize the signature on the 10 bottom of the page above the 11 line that is typed 'John 12 Carmichael'? 13 "A. No, sir. I have 14 never seen a signature with John 15 Carmichael's name on it. I 16 wasn't provided with a copy of 17 this as far as I can remember." 18 My question to you, Mr. Scarff, which 19 is it? 20 A. I have not seen a further document 21 that had John Carmichael's name on it because I 22 was not given access to any legal or official 23 church documents with Mr. John Carmichael's name 24 on it. However, if you know Mr. Carmichael, you 25 know that he is one that loves to read lots and 2543 1 lots of books, particularly science fiction 2 books. I have seen his name written inside these 3 science fiction books. I have seen him write 4 notes and he scribbles when he writes. 5 So when I looked at this and I saw 6 John Carmichael, I made that identification. 7 Q. So which is true, that you recognized 8 his signature or you didn't? 9 A. I am saying that based on what I have 10 seen in the way he writes in his books and the way 11 he writes his notes to me they look similar. 12 That's my answer. 13 Q. So it is true you recognize his 14 signature, is that right, on this Exhibit-23? 15 A. I assumed that was his signature, 16 yes. 17 Q. You recognized it, that was true 18 testimony on August 2nd? 19 A. Based upon my earlier observations 20 and the way Mr. Carmichael writes, yes. 21 Q. So it was false testimony when you 22 said you didn't recognize his signature on 23 August 9th -- 24 A. I believe as -- 25 Q. -- August 6th? 2544 1 A. As it states in -- what is that page 2 number again? 3 Q. Yes. 1868. 4 A. Page 1868, No. 7. 5 "A. No, sir, I have 6 never seen a signature with John 7 Carmichael's name on it." 8 What I was referring to was an 9 official document. I have never seen official 10 documents, directives or anything with John 11 Carmichael's name on it. What I have seen is 12 numerous notes that he had written to me. Notes 13 that he had written to other individuals. 14 He also had a lot of science fiction 15 books that he loved to read and I saw the way he 16 signed his name in the front cover of these 17 books. And it looked very similar to John 18 Carmichael. And you can usually tell when you 19 have different people signing things they have 20 different ways of handwriting. And John 21 Carmichael scribbles and that's why they referred 22 to him as Dr. John. It was a joke within the 23 Mission of Davis that he was Dr. John simply 24 because he scribbled. 25 Q. So that was the true testimony then? 2545 1 A. What I am saying here, sir, as far as 2 an official document or directive from John 3 Carmichael, I have not seen it because I was not 4 privy to any confidential or any type of documents 5 within the Church of Scientology. 6 Q. The question was, "now, do you 7 recognize the signature on the bottom of the page 8 above the line that is typed John Carmichael? 9 "A. No, sir, I have 10 never seen a signature with John 11 Carmichael's name on it." 12 A. And you don't seem to get the point 13 of what I have said earlier or you don't want to 14 get the point. 15 Q. The point is, is that false 16 testimony? 17 A. No, it is not false testimony. 18 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, mischaracterizes 19 the testimony. 20 BY MR. BOWLES: 21 Q. So that is entirely consistent with 22 your other testimony; is that right? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 MR. BOWLES: It is five o'clock. 25 MR. CALHOUN: Before we go off the record, 2546 1 Mr. Bowles, I think you were going to share with 2 us what we are doing or what we in this group are 3 not doing tomorrow and what we will be doing on 4 Monday. 5 MR. BOWLES: I think that's right. Tomorrow 6 I have a deposition in another case with a 7 discovery cutoff of August 31st. And that's going 8 to have to be covered. And so we would adjourn at 9 this point until Monday morning, whatever the next 10 Monday is. 11 MR. CALHOUN: 9:30 or 10:00? 12 MR. BOWLES: Ten o'clock. 13 MR. CALHOUN: Ten o'clock? 14 MR. BOWLES: Yes. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you sir. Have a good 16 weekend. 17 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The date 18 is August 12, 1993. The time is 5:02 P.M. End of 19 Tape 3, Volume XIII, continuing deposition of 20 Mr. Scarff. 21 (TIME NOTED: 5:02 P.M.) 22 23 24 25 2547 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss: 2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 3 4 I, PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499, do 5 hereby certify: 6 That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L. 7 SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place 8 therein set forth, at which time the witness was 9 put on oath by me; 10 That the testimony of the witness and all 11 objections made at the time of the examination 12 were recorded stenographically by me, were 13 thereafter transcribed under my direction and 14 supervision and that the foregoing is a true 15 record of same. 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel 17 for nor related to any party to said action, nor 18 in anywise interested in the outcome thereof. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name 20 this 12th day of August, 1993. 21 22 23 ____________________________________ 24 PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499 25 2548 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss: 2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 3 4 I, LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222, do hereby 5 certify: 6 That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L. 7 SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place 8 therein set forth, at which time the witness was 9 put on oath by me; 10 That the testimony of the witness and all 11 objections made at the time of the examination 12 were recorded stenographically by me, were 13 thereafter transcribed under my direction and 14 supervision and that the foregoing is a true 15 record of same. 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel 17 for nor related to any party to said action, nor 18 in anywise interested in the outcome thereof. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name 20 this 12th day of August, 1993. 21 22 23 __________________________________ 24 LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222 25 2549 1 I N D E X 2 VOLUME XIV 3 4 THURSDAY, AUGUST 12, 1993 5 6 WITNESS EXAMINATION 7 8 GARRY L. SCARFF 9 10 (By Mr. Bowles) 2350 11 (By Mr. Bowles) 2441 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2550 1 PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBITS 2 GARRY L. SCARFF 3 4 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 5 193 Handrawn diagram. 2376 6 7 194 Two-page photocopy of a 2376 8 newspaper article from 9 the Oregonian, Tuesday, 10 May 21, 1985. 11 12 195 Multi-page document 2505 13 consisting of deposition 14 correction sheets and 15 additions by Garry Scarff. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ================================================================= If this is a copyrighted work, you are acknowledging by receipt of this document from FACTNet that on the basis of reasonable investigation, you have not been to obtain a copy elsewhere at a fair price, and that you are and will abide by the following copyright warning. WARNING CONCERNING COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS: The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photo copies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified by law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be "used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research." If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excess of "fair use," that user may be liable for copyright infringement. FACTNet reserves the right to refuse to accept an order for copying or other duplication, or delivery of copied or duplicated material if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. ------------------------------------------------------------------- CARD CATALOG ENTRY DOS FILENAME OF TEXT FILE: E:\PCB\SCN\FILES\SCARFF\SCA08123.TXT DOS FILENAME OF IMAGE FILES: ADMINISTRATIVE CODE: SECURITY CODE: DISTRIBUTION CODE: NAME FOR BBS: SORT TO: CONTRIBUTOR: LOC. OF ORIG: NOTES: For additional verification see image files contained in the file with same name and .ZIP extension. UPDATED ON: UPDATED BY: =================================================================