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2551
 1               UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
 2              CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
 3
 4    ------------------------------
 5    CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY         )
 6    INTERNATIONAL, a California   )
 7    non-profit religious          )
 8    organization,                 )
 9                    Plaintiff,    )
10                 vs.              )No. 93-3843-HLH(Tx)
11    STEVEN FISHMAN and UWE GEERTZ,)VOLUME XV
12                    Defendants.   )
13    ------------------------------
14
15          Continued deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF,
16          at 221 North Figueroa Street, Suite 1200,
17          Los Angeles, California, commencing at
18          10:19 A.M., Monday, August 16, 1993,
19          before Lee Brenneman, CSR No. 5222 and
20          Paulette M. Griffin, CSR No. 2499.
21
22
23
24
25    PAGES 2551-2776
2552
 1    APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
 2
 3          FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
 4
 5                 BOWLES & MOXON
 6                 BY:  TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ.
 7                 6255 Sunset Boulevard
 8                 Suite 2000
 9                 Hollywood, California  90028
10
11          FOR THE DEFENDANT UWE GEERTZ:
12
13                 LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD
14                 BY:  GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ.
15                 221 North Figueroa Street
16                 Suite 1200
17                 Los Angeles, California  90012
18
19          ALSO PRESENT:
20
21                 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR
22                 BOB BICKLER
23
24
25
2553
 1          VIDEO OPERATOR: Good morning.  We are back
 2    on the record.  The date is August 16, 1993.  The
 3    time is 10:19 A.M.  Beginning of Tape 1, Volume
 4    XIV, continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff.
 5
 6                    GARRY L. SCARFF,
 7    having been previously duly sworn, testified
 8    further as follows:
 9
10                  EXAMINATION (CONTINUING)
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     Good morning, Mr. Scarff.
13          A.     Good morning.
14          MR. BOWLES:  Good morning, Mr. Calhoun.
15          MR. CALHOUN:  Good morning, Counsel.
16    BY MR. BOWLES:
17          Q.     Mr. Scarff, I want to go back and
18    take a look at Exhibit-9 and have you read a
19    portion of your direct testimony on the
20    circumstances under which this was signed.
21    Starting at Page 9 70, at Line 23 and continuing
22    to the next page, this is 970 at Line 23.  And if
23    you want, you can take a look at the context above
24    it.  It is talking about how Mr. Ingram was
25    reading over the phone information that you had
2554
 1    supposedly given him.
 2                 And then talking about the timing of
 3    the next day's events.  So if you could read to
 4    the next page at Line 18 to begin with.
 5                 Mr. Calhoun, I will pass these to you
 6    to pass to the witness.
 7          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you, Counsel.
 8    BY MR. BOWLES:
 9          Q.     Did you want to see some pages in
10    front of that?
11          A.     No.  This is fine.
12                 "A.  And that was it for the
13          night.  We went home -- he went
14          home approximately midnight to
15          12:30 in the morning.  I had to
16          be at work the next day.  He
17          called me at 12:30 in the
18          afternoon and said that I needed
19          to come by the motel room around
20          two o'clock because the
21          information that he had
22          transcribed down to Bowles &
23          Moxon was being published or
24          being prepared.  I am sorry.
25          And it was going to be mailed to
2555
 1          him.  I guess he said overnight
 2          mail so it would come to him the
 3          night after.  And that's what
 4          happened.
 5                 "I went to the Red Lion
 6          Hotel at approximately two
 7          o'clock and he said I would have
 8          to wait a while because the
 9          declarations had not yet
10          arrived.  At approximately 2:15
11          there was a knock on the door.
12          It was Gwen Mayfield with a
13          bunch of envelopes and he opened
14          the envelopes and they were
15          these prepared declarations that
16          you see in the exhibits."
17          Q.     Thanks.  I am going to hand you the
18    next page and have you read from that page, 972,
19    Line 2 to 973, Line 6.
20          A.     "Q.  Mr. Scarff, I think
21          you just testified that at 2:15
22          Gwen Mayfield came to the hotel
23          room, correct?
24                 "A.  That's correct.
25                 "Q.  What happened next?
2556
 1                 "A.  She handed him an
 2          envelope, actually two envelopes
 3          which had the declarations in
 4          them.  And when I asked him how
 5          he got these declarations so
 6          fast he said that they had been
 7          typed by the law firm in Los
 8          Angeles and then mail packed the
 9          same night back to him.  And
10          that they were prepared for
11          signature but that he had to
12          wait a few minutes because he
13          had called a notary public to
14          come to the motel room and that
15          he wanted me to hurry up within
16          the 20 minutes that I had to
17          read through all these
18          declarations and sign them and
19          then the notary public would
20          sign off on it.
21                 "The notary public was a
22          few minutes late.  So around
23          2:30 the notary public told
24          Mr. Ingram that it was usually
25          in her knowledge of something
2557
 1          like that when I signed onto a
 2          document I had to review it
 3          first before signing it because
 4          Eugene tried to talk the notary
 5          public into going ahead and
 6          signing them before my
 7          signature.  And that he was
 8          willing to pay her extra if she
 9          would simply go ahead and sign
10          them and stamp them and write
11          'commission' on them before I
12          had a chance to testify myself
13          and sign them because he was in
14          a hurry to get it done."
15          Q.     So it continues there and there is
16    back and forth about the conversation between you
17    and Mr. Ingram.  And then I would like you to
18    read -- and you can look at these pages that are
19    interceding, but the page I would like you to read
20    is on 975 starting at Line 10 and going to the end
21    of the page.
22                 Do you want to see the prior pages?
23          A.     No.
24                 "Q.  Now, what happened next?
25                 "A.  I didn't have time
2558
 1          to review them.  I only had ten
 2          minutes.  Because the notary
 3          public was not going to accede
 4          to Mr. Ingram's demands I went
 5          ahead and I didn't give him any
 6          argument.  I just went ahead and
 7          signed them as fast as I could.
 8                 "Q.  Why did you do that?
 9                 "A.  Because I only had
10          ten minutes in which to do it.
11          He said the notary public was
12          here.  I needed to go to work
13          and I had one of two options:  I
14          could sit there and review and
15          read this and be late for work
16          and possibly lose my job or I
17          could go ahead and sign these
18          and take off to work and let the
19          things fall where they may."
20          Q.     So of the testimony that you have
21    read back so far, is there any portion of that
22    that was an inaccurate transcription?
23          A.     No, Mr. Bowles, it is the best of my
24    recollection of what happened at that time.
25          Q.     At that time you mean in the
2559
 1    deposition when Mr. Berry was asking you the
 2    questions?
 3          A.     That is the best I can reflect that
 4    happened at that time.
 5          Q.     It is your testimony then that you
 6    arrived at this hotel room at 2:15?
 7          A.     Approximately 2:15.  In or around
 8    that time, yes.
 9          Q.     And you were in the hotel room for
10    how long?
11          A.     I would say approximately until 2:40
12    because I had to be on the floor at 2:45.
13          Q.     Let's back up a second.  I think your
14    testimony is what Gwen Mayfield arrived at 2:15
15    and you arrived around 2:00.
16          A.     I arrived before Gwen Mayfield did,
17    yes.  Because I was sitting in the motel room with
18    the notary public came in and we waited.  And then
19    Gwen showed up with the envelopes.  And that's the
20    way it happened.
21          Q.     So you went to the Red Lion at
22    approximately 2:00 P.M.
23          A.     It was around that time, yes.  He
24    told me to show up around 2:00.  He said the
25    papers would already be there.
2560
 1          Q.     When did the notary show up?
 2          A.     I don't recall exactly when she
 3    showed up.  But it was after I had shown up.
 4          Q.     Before or after Ms. Mayfield showed
 5    up?
 6          A.     It was before she had shown up.  And
 7    then Gwen showed up, I believe that's how it
 8    happened.
 9          Q.     So at approximately 2:15 then
10    Ms. Mayfield comes with some envelopes; is that
11    right?
12          A.     I am only guessing here.  I remember
13    how it happened, but as far as the specific times
14    are concerned, I don't remember.  I do recall it
15    was between 2:00 and 2:45 simply because I had to
16    be on the floor at 2:45.
17          Q.     So what is your best estimate as to
18    how many minutes you were in the hotel room before
19    Gwen Mayfield showed up with the affidavits?
20          A.     Probably 40 minutes when I was
21    actually in the motel room, but when Gwen showed
22    up, probably 10, 15 minutes is my best estimate.
23          Q.     Ten minutes after you arrived she
24    arrived?
25          A.     No.  She arrived around 2:15.  And
2561
 1    then Eugene opened the envelopes and went through
 2    the declarations to make sure everything was
 3    there.  Make sure all the pages were there and
 4    then handed them to me and said that I needed to
 5    initial each page and I had to sign them in front
 6    of the notary public.
 7          Q.     So how many minutes after Gwen
 8    Mayfield arrive did Mr. Ingram hand these
 9    affidavits to you?
10          A.     I don't recall.
11          Q.     What is your best estimate?
12          A.     I would be guessing here and say 10
13    minutes.
14          Q.     Was it any more than 10 minutes, it
15    could have been 15?
16          A.     Like I say I am speculating here.  I
17    am just guessing.
18          Q.     Did he go through the entire set of
19    declarations and pass them to you as a set?
20          A.     I know he went through each page.  He
21    wanted to make sure all the pages were there.  I
22    saw him reviewing each page.
23          Q.     How many declarations were there, if
24    you recall?
25          A.     Four.  One was a general
2562
 1    declaration.  One was focused on Bob Brandyberry.
 2    Another focused on Adrian and Anne Greek and the
 3    other one was focused on Ford Greene.
 4          Q.     So again there was one large one and
 5    then three derivative declarations; is that a fair
 6    statement?
 7          A.     Yes.
 8          Q.     So the question is, did he go through
 9    each one of the four, set them aside in a pile and
10    then pass you the entire pile?
11          A.     No.  In fact, he was standing up at
12    the TV at the time and he just went through them
13    as I recall.  He was standing up and reviewing
14    them.  Because the notary public and I were
15    sitting at the table next to the window.
16          Q.     When he finished one did he pass it
17    to you or did he wait until he finished --
18          A.     No, he went through all four of them
19    first.
20          Q.     So how much time did you have when he
21    handed them to you until the time you had to leave
22    the room to read and sign these declarations?
23          A.     My best estimate would be 10
24    minutes.
25          Q.     So I want to get something straight
2563
 1    here.  On Page 972 your testimony is that the
 2    notary public was a few minutes late.  In fact the
 3    way you testified before Mr. Berry was you related
 4    Ms. Mayfield coming at 2:15 describing the
 5    envelopes that she passed you in the process?
 6          A.     See didn't pass them to me.  She
 7    passed them to Mr. Ingram at the door.
 8          Q.     She didn't come in the room?
 9          A.     No.  No.  I saw her at the corridor.
10    I was sitting in the chair.
11          Q.     So the envelopes got passed into the
12    room.  Then you testified to Mr. Berry that the
13    notary public was a few minutes late.  So around
14    2:30 the notary public told
15    Mr. Ingram.
16          A.     Again, I am just speaking from my
17    recollection.  And I am doing the best I can
18    here.  I don't see what it has to do with any of
19    this, but to the best of my recollection, that's
20    what happened.
21          Q.     Which?
22          A.     And I stand by that.  As I have said
23    before, I have already stated, Counselor, to the
24    best of my recollection what happened.  If you
25    want to drill me on that, that's fine.  But I have
2564
 1    answered to the best of my recollection.  I don't
 2    see the point of constantly addressing it over and
 3    over again so I am not going to.  I have asked and
 4    answered that.  And I appreciate it if you would
 5    move on.
 6          Q.     When you state here that the notary
 7    public was a few minutes late and you state that
 8    after the envelopes are passed into the room,
 9    which is it?
10          A.     Counselor, I said again to the best
11    of my memory, and the record speaks for itself.
12    We have already addressed this at least three
13    different days.  I have told you to the best of my
14    recollection what happened.  It is on the record.
15    The record speaks for itself.
16          Q.     The record is contradictory.  I am
17    trying to get it straight.
18          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, misstates the
19    record.  Counsel's characterization is inaccurate.
20          THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It is your
21    characterization because all of my testimony you
22    claim is contradictory and a lie.  So I don't know
23    why you want to go on.  If you think it is a lie
24    what is the point of asking me questions over and
25    over again on the same topic which I have already
2565
 1    answered?  So I am not going to talk about it any
 2    more.
 3    BY MR. BOWLES:
 4          Q.     So you arrived at 2:00?
 5          A.     Asked and answered.
 6          Q.     Gwen Mayfield showed up ten minutes
 7    later and you had 10 minutes to read these
 8    declarations; is that right?
 9          A.     Asked and answered, Counsel.
10          Q.     Your prior testimony has all been
11    truthful, hasn't it?
12          A.     Yes, to the best of my recollection.
13          Q.     Let's take a look at Exhibit-3.
14          A.     I don't have Exhibit-3.
15          Q.     This is Page 206.  The statement you
16    made under oath to Mr. Leipold on September 11,
17    1992.  See there at 206, Mr. Scarff, you are
18    talking about the night before and
19    Mr. Ingram calling --
20          A.     It doesn't address that.  206 doesn't
21    address that.  It addresses the fact that he was
22    on my -- he accompanied me on my shift.
23          Q.     Last line, take a look there and on
24    to the next page.  So that's your testimony there
25    about how he came to your apartment and read the
2566
 1    material over the phone?
 2          A.     Yes.
 3          Q.     So read for the record, please, from
 4    Line 16 of Page 207 to Line 18 of the following
 5    page.
 6          A.     "Q.  How do you know that
 7          the person was at Bowles &
 8          Moxon' office?
 9                 "A.  He told me he was
10          going to telephone Bowles &
11          Moxon, that they were writing it
12          up four hours on the telephone
13          transcribing his notes to this
14          person and he told me that he
15          was going to take a taxi back to
16          the motel which he did.  He said
17          'Tomorrow when you come to work
18          why don't you come in at noon --
19          because I started work at ten
20          o'clock.  He said, 'Why don't
21          you come in at noon because by
22          that time I should have the
23          affidavits.'
24                 "I said 'What do you
25          mean?'  He said, 'They are going
2567
 1          to type them up tonight,' and
 2          then I don't remember whether he
 3          said he was going to teletype
 4          them or fax them up to Portland
 5          and they were going to retype
 6          it.  But he said the affidavits
 7          would be prepared and ready for
 8          your signature and that
 9          Scientology would get it to the
10          motel to him.
11                 "And I got a telephone
12          call the next morning from
13          Eugene saying, 'Why don't you
14          come in at 12:30 or 12:45
15          because it is taking a little
16          bit longer to get the affidavits
17          to you.'
18                 "I went there at 12:45
19          and we waited because the
20          affidavits were not there yet.
21          Around 1:15 Gwen Mayfield came
22          to the motel and delivered to
23          him not only one big general
24          affidavit but three other
25          affidavits which were supposed
2568
 1          to focus on the criminal
 2          activities of Ford Greene,
 3          specifically Bob Brandyberry and
 4          Cynthia Kisser specifically.  So
 5          there are actually four
 6          affidavits."
 7          Q.     Thank you.  So which is it?
 8          A.     So which is what?
 9          Q.     Which is it, did you get there at
10    12:45 or get there at 2:00?
11          A.     Mr. Bowles, as I have said before, as
12    far as the time is concerned, the best of my
13    recollection was two o'clock.  If it was 12:30,
14    12:45, 1:15 or even eight o'clock in the morning I
15    don't recall.  To the best of my recollection
16    that's when it occurred.
17          Q.     So which is the true testimony?
18          A.     Mr. Bowles, I don't think black and
19    white, true or false like you.  That's your own
20    paranoid personality that that comes from.  As I
21    have said before I don't recall the specific
22    times.  To the best of my recollection it was
23    around 2:00 to 2:30, 2:45, because I went to work
24    right afterwards.
25                 I also advised Eugene Ingram at this
2569
 1    time that it was against policy for Red Lion
 2    employees to go into the motel and meet people
 3    because I was breaking the rules to go do that.
 4          Q.     Strike as non-responsive.
 5          A.     It is responsive and it is true.  In
 6    fact I can quote Red Lion policy in the future.
 7          Q.     That wasn't my question.
 8          A.     I have answered the question.
 9          Q.     Is it a false statement that Gwen
10    Mayfield arrived at 1:15 in the afternoon with the
11    affidavits?
12          A.     Mr. Bowles, you have asked that
13    before.
14          Q.     No, I have not.
15          A.     You have asked it before and I have
16    answered it to the best of my recollection.  I'm
17    going to say asked and answered.  I am not going
18    on to move on further.
19          Q.     Which is the true statement, that you
20    arrived at 2:15 or 1:15?
21          A.     Mr. Bowles, this is harassment by you
22    and I refuse to be a part of it.  Asked and
23    answered.
24          Q.     So you are refusing to answer the
25    question?
2570
 1          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
 2          Q.     When you stated under oath to
 3    Mr. Leipold on September 11, 1992 that Gwen
 4    Mayfield arrived at 1:15 in the afternoon, was
 5    that a false statement?
 6          A.     No, it wasn't.  As I said before it
 7    doesn't make it false simply because I misspoke or
 8    I don't remember something.
 9          Q.     You had an opportunity to correct
10    that transcript, didn't you?
11          A.     Mr. Bowles, at 9 o'clock on October
12    26th I went into a recording office to sit down
13    with a transcript.  I was given an hour and a half
14    to correct it and sign it.  I hurried up and I did
15    the best I could under the circumstances.  I was
16    not able to sit down and sit calmly with a cup of
17    coffee in my hand and review it word for word as
18    you have.  I was given an hour and a half to do
19    it.  I did it to the best I could.  If I happened
20    to miss a few things, which I did, and the facts
21    will corroborate that, although you have chosen to
22    misrepresent them, twist them for your own agenda,
23    that's your business, sir.  I think the courts are
24    smart enough to see through your
25    misrepresentation.
2571
 1          Q.     Now you are saying that you were in a
 2    hurry on the correction statements?
 3          A.     No, sir.  Those are your words.  You
 4    have mischaracterized that now I have saying this
 5    and now I am saying that.  Mr. Bowles, you are a
 6    liar.  You have misrepresented my testimony
 7    throughout this deposition.  You are not going to
 8    do it any more.
 9          Q.     I am sorry it makes you
10    uncomfortable.
11          A.     What makes me uncomfortable is that
12    an attorney who has a law degree in California and
13    practices law can use his office and compromise
14    his position and compromise his -- ever element of
15    the legal profession to misrepresent himself in a
16    law deposition.  You are a fraud, you are a liar,
17    and it is going to catch up to you.  It is going
18    to come back to haunt you.
19          Q.     Are you going let me ask the
20    question, Mr. Scarff?
21          A.     Are you upset now?  Is this
22    uncomfortable for you, Mr. Bowles?
23          Q.     It is uncomfortable when you refuse
24    to answer questions because we are going to have
25    to go back to court and get you ordered to answer
2572
 1    these questions.  So why don't we just answer
 2    them.
 3          A.     Mr. Bowles, you have asked it, I have
 4    answered it.  You have already filed two exparte
 5    applications in court.  They have both been
 6    dismissed.  They have caught on to you.  If you
 7    want to go to court, go for it.  I am not
 8    obstructing here but I have a right to stand up
 9    for myself when you have asked questions over and
10    over and over again.  It was asked.  I answered it
11    to the best of my knowledge, to the best of my
12    recollection.  It happened a long time ago.
13                 Now, if you want to interrogate me on
14    something I simply don't remember fully about,
15    that's your business.  But I don't have to sit
16    here and take all your bullshit over a question
17    which I have already answered to the best of my
18    knowledge.
19          Q.     The question is are you now claiming
20    you were in a hurry when you filled out the
21    correction statements, which I guess is
22    Exhibit-195, I may have that wrong, the correction
23    statement for the transcript of September 11,
24    1992?
25          A.     No, sir, I am not, quote, now,
2573
 1    unquote, claiming that I have done anything.  It
 2    is the truth.  You can verify with the court
 3    reporting service in Portland, Oregon, if you
 4    wish, about the time frame I had in which to
 5    review and correct it.  Corroborate with them, you
 6    can do that.  But I am not, quote, unquote, now
 7    claiming anything.  Those are your words.  Those
 8    are your mischaracterizes.  And I am not going to
 9    put up with it.
10          Q.     Have you ever claimed you were in a
11    hurry before under oath?
12          A.     I think I have talked to Dan Leipold
13    in it in conversations the fact that I was only
14    given an hour and a half.  In fact the manager of
15    the office refused to sign it herself saying there
16    was some kind of conflict of interest and we had
17    to go to a notary public down the hallway to do
18    it.  It was actually signed in another lawyer's
19    office down the hallway from the reporting
20    service.  She can attest to that.  And I have
21    spoken to Dan Leipold about the hurried fashion
22    that I did that.  He said if it ever came up I
23    could simply correct it at a later date.
24          Q.     That's convenient.
25                 Was Cynthia Kisser ever involved in
2574
 1    the Eddy Fallon deprogramming?
 2          A.     No, she was not.
 3          Q.     Did you ever speak to her about it?
 4          A.     No, sir, I did not.
 5          Q.     At no time did you ever speak to
 6    Cynthia Kisser about the Eddy Fallon
 7    deprogramming; is that right?
 8          A.     That's correct.  Never Cynthia
 9    Kisser.  It was Adrian and Anne Greek that knew
10    fully about what was going on.
11          Q.     Cynthia Kisser didn't prefer you?
12          A.     No.
13          Q.     She didn't tell you there was a
14    deprogramming going on?
15          A.     No, sir.  As I have said before on
16    testimony, I got a telephone call, and as I have
17    told Eugene, I believe her name was Melinda from
18    Rehab in Iowa city, although the name could be
19    wrong because I don't remember whether it was
20    Melinda or someone else.  She said my name was on
21    a list of deprogrammers.  But I specifically don't
22    remember where Cynthia Kisser was involved.
23                 In fact, when I talked to your
24    employee, Eugene Ingram, about this, Eugene
25    questioned whether Cynthia could have been
2575
 1    involved at the time because of what her position
 2    was in the Cult Awareness Network, whether she was
 3    an unpaid secretary or she was, in fact, working
 4    in the office at that time.  And I believe Eugene
 5    informed me that she had not yet become executive
 6    director and I believe, I could be mistaken, that
 7    she was an executive secretary before she became
 8    executive director.  She had not even walked into
 9    that position yet.  She was simply a volunteer
10    working in a volunteer capacity.
11                 Now again this is information that
12    Eugene had.  So being that you employed him and
13    pay him that salary, I would suggest you take it
14    with up Eugene.
15          Q.     My question to you is, did Cynthia
16    Kisser call you to tell you there was a
17    deprogramming and you should call the parents to
18    try to find out about it?
19          A.     No, not Cynthia Kisser.
20          Q.     Who was it?
21          A.     Melinda.  I think I have testified to
22    that.
23          Q.     Did Cynthia Kisser call you and tell
24    you to call the Unbound facility and talk to
25    somebody there about a possible deprogramming of
2576
 1    Eddy Fallon?
 2          A.     As I have said before in testimony
 3    over and over and over again, I don't know how
 4    many times I have to repeat this, I know you are
 5    on a vendetta against Cynthia Kisser and you want
 6    her dead, but Cynthia Kisser was not involved in
 7    the Eddy Fallon kidnapping, deprogramming.  If
 8    Cynthia Kisser has ever been involved in any type
 9    of deprogrammings, kidnappings I am not aware of
10    it.  If you have proof, go with it.  But I have
11    never known her to be involved in any type of
12    kidnapping or deprogramming so you will have to
13    get your jollies somewhere else.  You are the one
14    that ordered her death.
15          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
16                 Mr. Scarff, you did testify truthful
17    to Mr. Leipold, didn't you?
18          A.     I believe so, yes.
19          Q.     Take a look at Exhibit-3 again.  Page
20    36.  Line 24 through 14 of the next page.
21          A.     "A.  There was one case that
22          Cynthia Kisser --
23                 "I would like to go back
24          and read the rest of this.    One
25          second.
2577
 1          Q.     Take your time.
 2          A.     "A.  There was one case that
 3          Cynthia Kisser did turn me on to
 4          and it was the case with Eddy
 5          Fallon, the Eddy Fallon
 6          deprogramming I was involved
 7          in.  Cynthia Kisser called me up
 8          and told me there was a family
 9          looking for a deprogrammer.  She
10          said, and I forget the gist of
11          the conversation, but she
12          referred to another woman who
13          worked out of Unbound who
14          maintained a list of
15          deprogrammers.
16                 "I called the people at
17          Unbound and she told me that she
18          had had a list and she had
19          spoken to a number of people
20          about this deprogramming that
21          the parents wanted to do and
22          that I was on the list.  She had
23          called a number of people here
24          but because it was the holidays,
25          nobody wanted to do it.  And she
2578
 1          asked me if I would be willing
 2          to do it and I said yes.  But
 3          that was the only connection."
 4          Q.     Go to the next page, Page 38.  Line
 5    14 to Line 18.
 6          A.     "Q.  Do you have any
 7          knowledge, direct knowledge,
 8          personal knowledge on your
 9          behalf that Cynthia Kisser has
10          ever operated a network for
11          referrals for kidnapping or
12          illegal activities?
13                 "A.  She was aware of
14          it."
15          Q.     So which is it, Mr. Scarff, did
16    Cynthia Kisser call you or not on this Eddy Fallon
17    matter?
18          A.     What I am saying, Mr. Bowles, and I
19    have said it on record already, to the best of my
20    recollection, Cynthia Kisser was not involved at
21    that time.  If in fact she was involved I am
22    sorry, I misspoke.  But again let's not
23    misrepresent the testimony here.  If in fact she
24    did talk with me, she is the one, if, in fact, she
25    was the one, referred me to this Melinda who told
2579
 1    me I was on a list of deprogrammers.  This is what
 2    this now speaks of.
 3          Q.     So you are not certain now whether
 4    Cynthia Kisser called you; is that right?
 5          A.     I do not recall right now April 16th,
 6    1993 whether Cynthia Kisser was the one that spoke
 7    with me.
 8          Q.     What was April 16th about?
 9          A.     I am saying today, August 16, 1993 I
10    am not positive whether it was Cynthia Kisser that
11    called me and referred me to this woman who I
12    spoke to.  I don't recall.  This was, I believe
13    the record shows it was seven or eight years ago.
14    A lot has happened since then.
15          Q.     So that's your testimony now, right?
16          A.     It has always been my testimony,
17    Mr. Bowles.  You are the one that has chosen to
18    twist and distort it, sir.
19                 If Cynthia Kisser did call me, then
20    fine.  Let the record speak for itself.  If
21    Cynthia Kisser can corroborate the fact that she
22    called me with this, I won't deny that.  I just
23    don't remember.
24          Q.     Well, it is a matter of your
25    testifying under oath.
2580
 1          A.     I'm sure you don't remember every
 2    nuance that happened in your life eight years ago.
 3          Q.     That's not the point.
 4          A.     It is.
 5          Q.     You are testifying under oath at
 6    different times of totally different claims.
 7          A.     I am not.  Mr. Bowles, nothing in
 8    this world is black and white.  I am human.  I
 9    make errors.  I forget.  I have loss of memory.
10    Every human being does that.  Only you want the
11    world to think you are perfect.  Sir, I hate to
12    tell you, you are as human as I am.  You have made
13    a lot more mistakes than I have which will come
14    back to haunt you.
15          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
16          A.     The record will speak for itself.  I
17    don't have a perfect memory.  Neither do you.  If
18    you want to twist and distort my testimony for
19    your own purpose, go for it.  You are not fooling
20    anyone within the judicial system.
21          Q.     Which is true, Mr. Scarff, you called
22    the people at Unbound or they called you first?
23          A.     I don't recall.
24          Q.     Now you don't recall?
25          A.     You're asking me to speculate on
2581
 1    something that happened eight years ago.  I am
 2    saying to the best of my recollection, this is
 3    what happened.
 4                 The only thing that I remember about
 5    that entire affair is that I got a telephone call
 6    from a woman by the name of Melinda from Rehab who
 7    said I was on a list.  In fact your own
 8    declaration by Eugene Ingram refers to that
 9    conversation.  And that's all I can remember.  If
10    Cynthia Kisser or someone else called me, I don't
11    know.  The only thing that I remember about that
12    specific deprogramming is that Adrian and Anne
13    Greek and I conversed about it.  They were fully
14    aware before it happened what was going on.  It
15    was Adrian Greek that tried to get me not to do it
16    because of the father's problems.  And that's all
17    I can remember.  And it is not true or false,
18    black or white.  Sorry, I just don't recall.  It
19    is eight years ago.
20          Q.     Does that go for all your testimony,
21    Mr. Scarff?
22          A.     No.
23          Q.     So all your other testimony is really
24    black and white to you?
25          A.     That's according to you, sir.
2582
 1          Q.     I am asking you.  You are telling me
 2    it is not black and white?
 3          A.     Mr. Bowles.  Let's get it on record
 4    here.  Practically every lawsuit you have filed in
 5    the courts has blown up in your face and backfired
 6    on you and you have lost them and it is precisely
 7    for the same reason.  So if you want to distort my
 8    testimony, go ahead.
 9          Q.     I am trying to find out what my
10    testimony is.
11          A.     No, sir, it is clear to me you are
12    not interested in finding out any truth.  You are
13    simply here to stall and disrupt this.  This ex
14    parte application you lost last Friday is simply
15    justice to the matter, sir.  Are you going to file
16    another ex parte application in this so it can
17    backfire on you a third time?
18          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
19          A.     Of course not.  You don't want the
20    truth.
21          Q.     Which of your testimony is black and
22    white and which isn't, Mr. Scarff?
23          A.     Sir, I have answered the question.
24    Asked and answered.  Am not going to continue with
25    this harassment of you, sir.
2583
 1          Q.     Ever forged any documents that you
 2    purport to being Scientology documents from the
 3    Church of Scientology?
 4          A.     I am sorry.
 5          Q.     Have you ever forged a document that
 6    you purport to have come from the Church of
 7    Scientology?
 8          A.     Have I ever forged a document?
 9          Q.     Yes.
10          A.     Not that I can recall.
11          Q.     You didn't forge that staff contract,
12    did you?
13          A.     No.  In fact --
14          Q.     Did somebody else forge it, is that
15    your testimony?
16          A.     It is my testimony, Mr. Bowles, and I
17    have been informed by former high-ranking members
18    of the Church of Scientology who have access to
19    contracts on a daily basis that the Church of
20    Scientology by policy requires a clean copy of a
21    contract when it is sent down to CSI, and if by
22    virtue of whether any coffee was spilled on the
23    contract, food was spilled on the contract, it was
24    lost, it wasn't a clean copy, that church
25    officials routinely simply redid them because it
2584
 1    had already been in the file in the first place.
 2    They considered that okay.
 3                 Now, that has been validated to me by
 4    former high-ranking members of the Church of
 5    Scientology.
 6          Q.     Who?
 7          A.     That is none of your business.
 8          Q.     You are going to refuse to answer the
 9    question?
10          A.     Yes, I am.  That is a privacy
11    question.  That's none of your business.  I am not
12    going to give it to you.
13          Q.     When?
14          A.     Privacy.  None of your business.
15          Q.     Where?
16          A.     None of your business.  That's a
17    privacy.  I execute the privilege.
18          Q.     You are going to refuse to answer any
19    questions about the circumstances of that
20    information; is that right?
21          A.     I refer you to Judge Tassopoulos's
22    ruling that says that I as a witness have a right
23    to execute any privilege I wish when it is a
24    private matter.  That is a private matter.  These
25    individuals have been the targets of fair game by
2585
 1    your office, by your employee Eugene Ingram.  You
 2    know who they are.  You are not going to use me as
 3    an instrument to torment or cause anguish to
 4    anyone else.
 5          Q.     You are going to make a general
 6    statement and then refuse to answer any specific
 7    questions to substantiate it; is that right?
 8          A.     No.  If you want to ask me questions
 9    to substantiate it, fine, but if you are asking me
10    for names of individuals that are related to that,
11    I absolutely refuse to do that because you have
12    already caused a lot of torment and financial ruin
13    to these individuals simply to harass them as is
14    the policy of the Scientology.  Which has also
15    threatened to kill me and my parents in this
16    process, of which you are fully aware of, sir.
17          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
18          A.     Sir, it is a fact.  That's why we
19    have a police officer here.  It is the fact and
20    you know it.  If you want to sit here and strike
21    it, sobeit.
22          Q.     So now you are telling me the police
23    officer is here because I am here asking you
24    questions?
25          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, misstates the
2586
 1    statement?
 2    BY MR. BOWLES:
 3          Q.     Is that right?
 4          A.     Mr. Bowles, it is already on record
 5    and I believe it is on record with the judge that
 6    I had specific threats rendered against me in this
 7    deposition and prior to this deposition and that's
 8    why we have security in the building.
 9          Q.     I thought he was here just for
10    Mr. Ingram.  Is he now here for me?  Are you
11    afraid of me?
12          A.     I seem to recall a conversation where
13    you went to the security man and asked him to
14    protect you from me because I was psychotic.  Did
15    you not have that conversation, Mr. Bowles?  Let's
16    talk about the facts here.  Are you afraid to
17    admit that on the record the fact that you
18    approached this officer and tried to get him to
19    protect you from me?  He is here for you evidently
20    too, Mr. Bowles.
21          Q.     I don't think so?
22          A.     That's what you said to him.  Should
23    we bring the officer in to testify to that,
24    Mr. Bowles?  What are you afraid of, Mr. Bowles?
25          Q.     Are you going to refuse to answer my
2587
 1    question?
 2          A.     Mr. Bowles, you have asked it and I
 3    answered it.
 4          Q.     You are going to refuse to answer.
 5    All right?
 6          A.     No.  Asked and answered, Counsel
 7    already.  Convenient for you to deny the truth,
 8    isn't it, Mr. Bowles.
 9          Q.     I think the record will speak for
10    itself, Mr. Scarff.
11          A.     I think it already has and it has
12    blown you out of court twice already.  I think
13    that's a real fair reflection of what's happening
14    in this deposition.
15          Q.     So you are not going to tell me who
16    told you about the so-called practice of staff
17    contracts, I guess; is that right?
18          A.     I have spoken to several individuals
19    both whom I have already stated on the record.
20          Q.     How many?
21          A.     At least five.
22          Q.     Is that your best recollection, five?
23          A.     Five, yes.
24          Q.     Since when?
25          A.     Since when?  In the last three weeks,
2588
 1    four weeks.
 2          Q.     Where are these people located?
 3          A.     Sir, that's a privacy question.  It
 4    is none of your business.
 5          Q.     And you are not going to tell me your
 6    names?
 7          A.     Why?  So you can go and hurt them?
 8          Q.     No.  So I can find out whether you
 9    are telling the truth or not.  Yes or no, are you
10    going to tell me their names or not?
11          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
12          Q.     Yes or no.  No?
13          A.     Asked and answered.  Now who is edgy,
14    Mr. Bowles?  Who is uncomfortable now,
15    Mr. Bowles?
16          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
17          A.     It has been 45 minutes.  I would like
18    to take a break.  It has been over 45 minutes
19    actually.
20          MR. BOWLES:  I disagree, but go ahead and
21    take a break if you are uncomfortable.
22          THE WITNESS:  Mr. Bowles, you are the one
23    that's shouting, not me.
24          VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record.
25    The time is 10:57 A.M.
2589
 1                 (Recess taken.)
 2          VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the record.  The
 3    time is 11:20 A.M.
 4    BY MR. BOWLES:
 5          Q.     So, Mr. Scarff, have you or have you
 6    not ever forged a document which bears the Church
 7    of Scientology identification?
 8          A.     I think I have answered that
 9    already.  Not to my recollection.
10          Q.     Have you ever made any Workers Comp
11    claims in connection with any employment of yours?
12          A.     Yes, I have.
13          Q.     How many?
14          A.     I think that's personal information
15    which you are not entitled to, sir.  I was
16    represented by attorneys in my claims and I think
17    that's attorney-client privilege.
18          Q.     Have you filed more than one claim?
19          A.     Yes, I have.
20          Q.     How many?
21          A.     It is none of your business.
22          Q.     Well, it is my business if you have
23    filed fraudulent claims.
24          A.     Sir, I was represented by an attorney
25    in each one of these claims.  I don't think that's
2590
 1    accessible to you, sir.
 2          Q.     When was the first one?
 3          A.     The first one that I can recall was
 4    with J.C. Penney.
 5          Q.     On that insurance job you had?
 6          A.     Yes.
 7          Q.     What was your claimed disability?
 8          A.     Again that's none of your business,
 9    sir.
10          Q.     When was it filed?
11          A.     I believe it was filed early 1987.
12    Again I was represented by an attorney in that
13    case.
14          Q.     Who was it?
15          A.     You can take it up with the attorney,
16    Douglas Green.  He is an attorney in Portland.
17          Q.     When was your second claim?
18          A.     Second claim that I can recall is
19    with Red Lion Hotel following a car accident on
20    November 13th, 1991.  Again represented by Douglas
21    Green, attorney in Portland.
22          Q.     On the first claim against J.C.
23    Penney, did you collect any money?
24          A.     Yes, I did.
25          Q.     How much?
2591
 1          A.     Again that's none of your business,
 2    sir.  That was a settlement and the terms are not
 3    open to your knowledge, sir.  Take it up with the
 4    attorney.
 5          Q.     When did you get your settlement?
 6          A.     Again that's privileged information,
 7    sir.
 8          Q.     Did you get a settlement in the Red
 9    Lion matter?
10          A.     Yes, I did.
11          Q.     How much was that?
12          A.     Take it up with Doug Green, sir.  You
13    are an attorney.  Take it up with him.
14          Q.     So you are giving us authority to
15    talk to Doug Green as your former counsel?
16          A.     No, I am not.  I am simply saying
17    this is attorney-client privilege which you have
18    asserted numerous times in my attempt to get
19    information from you.  You know what it is.  You
20    know I'm not going to give you the information.
21    Why are you asking?
22          Q.     You are not authorizing Mr. Greene to
23    give it to us?
24          A.     No, sir, because I know what you do
25    with the information.  I think it is widely
2592
 1    apparent what your law firm does with the
 2    information and it is not lawful, so why would I
 3    be stupid enough.
 4          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 5                 Have you filed any other Workers Comp
 6    claims?
 7          A.     I may have but I don't recall.
 8          Q.     Did you have lawyers representing you
 9    on the other claims?
10          A.     Yes.
11          Q.     Any claim you filed you had a lawyer
12    representing you; is that right?
13          A.     What I am saying, to the best of my
14    recollection, the two Workers Comp claims that I
15    had I had lawyers representing me.  That's only
16    what I recall.
17          Q.     If you had filed any others it would
18    have been by representation of counsel?
19          A.     Like I say, I can only recall two
20    claims, sir.  They were both represented by the
21    same attorney in both cases.
22          Q.     Ever faked an injury -- let me finish
23    the question.  Everybody faked an injury for which
24    you received Workers' Compensation?
25          A.     No, I did not.
2593
 1          Q.     Ever had a psychological exam in
 2    connection with any Workers Comp claim?
 3          A.     Yes, I did.
 4          Q.     When was that?
 5          A.     None of your business.  Again that
 6    falls under this privilege, sir.
 7          Q.     Which privilege again?
 8          A.     Attorney-client privilege.  Also
 9    dealt with the Workers' Compensation situation
10    with J.C. Penney and that's none of your business.
11          Q.     So you had a psychological exam in
12    connection with the J.C. Penney's injury; is that
13    right?
14          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
15    That's none of your business.
16          Q.     So you are refusing to answer that
17    question?
18          A.     Yes, I am refusing to answer that
19    question based upon my right to privacy, sir.
20          MR. BOWLES:  I'm referring to I think it is
21    Exhibit-195, which is the correction statement.
22          Q.     You recall, Mr. Scarff, we went over
23    that correction statement on Friday?
24          A.     No, we did not go over the correction
25    statement.  You simply pulled out one excerpt from
2594
 1    that statement, sir.
 2          Q.     We identified it, and authenticated
 3    it, didn't we?
 4          A.     No, you didn't authenticate it.
 5          Q.     You did.
 6          A.     I don't ever recall authenticating
 7    anything, sir.
 8          Q.     How long did it take you to fill that
 9    out, the correction statement?  An hour and a
10    half?  Is that your testimony?
11          A.     No, I didn't say that, sir.
12          Q.     What is your best recollection?
13          A.     Misrepresenting the testimony, sir
14    what I said is I went into Teach's reporting and I
15    had until 10:30 to review the transcript, make
16    corrections and do this sheet.
17          Q.     So you did all the corrections and
18    wrote out everything by 10:30, is that it?
19          A.     Yes.
20          Q.     And that included reading the entire
21    transcript?
22          A.     I went over it the best I could.  I
23    glanced at it.  If I saw a paragraph that looked
24    even reasonably correct, I just accepted that it
25    was correct.
2595
 1          Q.     So do you know how many pages that
 2    transcript was, do you recall?
 3          A.     I believe it was something like 260
 4    pages.
 5          Q.     277 pages, Mr. Scarff?
 6          A.     Yes, Mr. Bowles, it was 277 pages.
 7    Are you happy now?
 8          Q.     The hour and a half you spent doing
 9    this also included your typing up the explanations
10    at the end of the correction statement?
11          A.     No, that wasn't done at the time of
12    the corrections.
13          Q.     When was that done?
14          A.     The typewriting was done following
15    the deposition on September 11th.
16          Q.     And you just added that on?
17          A.     Yes.  I added that on after the -- I
18    am sorry, it wasn't a deposition.  It was the
19    declaration taken by Dan Leipold on September 11th
20    and the typed statement I made vindicating Cynthia
21    Kisser of any wrongdoing was also typed and signed
22    by me on September 11 of 1992.
23          Q.     Under oath?
24          A.     Yes.  This was under oath.  But this
25    here that you are referring to, the corrections,
2596
 1    if you notice at the top, sir, it says 10/26/92.
 2          Q.     You are looking at the wrong
 3    exhibit.  Let me show you my copy.  This is what
 4    we authenticated on Friday.
 5          MR. CALHOUN:  Object for the record.  There
 6    was no deposition on Friday.
 7          MR. BOWLES:  I am sorry.  Thursday.  You are
 8    right, Mr. Calhoun, I misspoke.
 9          THE WITNESS:  If you can read this,
10    Mr. Bowles, you might have to put your glasses on,
11    sir.  It was the 22nd day of September which is
12    different from September 11.  There is a ten-day
13    difference.
14    BY MR. BOWLES:
15          Q.     So did you fill out the correction on
16    September 22nd, 1992 or October 6th that you
17    testified to before the break?
18          A.     What I am testifying to, Mr. Bowles,
19    and you know this as well as I do, it is already
20    on record.  I mean you have got transcripts of it
21    right in front of you, sir.  I had a declaration
22    done by Dan Leipold in front of a court reporter.
23    I was sworn under oath.  It was me, Dan Leipold
24    and I believe her name was Pamela Smith.  She is a
25    court reporter at Teach's Reporting, Portland,
2597
 1    Oregon.
 2                 Following the declaration that I gave
 3    Mr. Leipold, I typed up a statement vindicating
 4    Cynthia Kisser of any wrongdoing and I signed it.
 5    And I believe I dated it September 11.
 6                 And then approximately 10 days later
 7    on the 22nd of September I made the corrections to
 8    the transcript.  I was not allowed -- I mean I
 9    requested that they send a copy to my home so I
10    could review and correct it and send it back.
11    They said no.  I had to come down to the court
12    reporter's office at nine o'clock on the 22nd.  I
13    was given an hour and a half to do it.
14                 And that's what I did.  And that's
15    why if you notice here it says the 22nd day of
16    September, 1992 and above it it refers to the
17    deposition, but it was actually a declaration
18    taken September 11th of '92.  It is very
19    self-explanitory, sir.
20          Q.     So that is your correction statement,
21    then, this thing --
22          A.     For the declaration.  Not the
23    deposition.  The declaration taken on September
24    11th.
25          Q.     Right.
2598
 1          A.     Yes.
 2          Q.     90 minutes.  Still your testimony, 90
 3    minutes?
 4          A.     Yes.
 5          Q.     You understood you were under penalty
 6    of perjury on that, didn't it?  Didn't you?
 7          A.     Yes.
 8          Q.     In fact, you acknowledged it on that
 9    transcript?
10          A.     Yes.
11          Q.     Let's take a look at that.  Exhbit-3,
12    Page 71.
13          A.     Okay.
14          Q.     Line 6, please read from Line 6 to
15    Line 12?
16          A.     "Q.  -- this is Dan Liepold
17          speaking -- "And I am not
18          forcing you in any way to make
19          these statements?
20                 "A.  No.
21                 "Q.  And you recognize
22          that this is under penalty of
23          perjury?
24                 "A.  I recognize that and
25          I recognize when it becomes
2599
 1          public I may lose my life over
 2          it too."
 3                 And that's referring to the threats
 4    that you made on my life through your employee.
 5          Q.     Prior to this date did Mr. Ingram
 6    ever threaten you physically?
 7          A.     Yes, he did.
 8          Q.     How many times?
 9          A.     I recall at least two conversations
10    that he called me at home on.  One in which I
11    called him.
12          Q.     So that would be pretty important, by
13    September 11th you would remember that, wouldn't
14    you?  That would stick in your mind, wouldn't it?
15          A.     I think, yes, the fact that anyone
16    would threaten someone would stick in their mind
17    and also there was threats afterwards prior to
18    the --
19          Q.     I am talking about before September
20    11.
21          A.     I am sorry, it wasn't before December
22    11th.
23          Q.     September.
24          A.     Mr. Bowles, don't interrupt me, sir.
25    I am trying to answer the question.  If you want
2600
 1    to interrupt there is no point in my answering
 2    questions.
 3          Q.     The question is were you physically
 4    threatened by Mr. Ingram prior to September 11,
 5    1992?
 6          A.     I am saying no, that I was threatened
 7    following this because at the time I gave this
 8    declaration Mr. Ingram to my knowledge was not
 9    aware that I was talking to Mr. Leipold, although
10    he had called me saying that he was aware that the
11    Cult Awareness Network was out to get me and to
12    throw me in prison which I later found was a
13    deliberate lie again created by your employee no
14    doubt at your offering, sir.
15          Q.     Just to get your testimony straight
16    here --
17          A.     My testimony has been straight.  I
18    think people see through the darkness
19    representations you have made, sir.  Is that funny
20    to you?
21          Q.     You were not physically threatened by
22    Mr. Ingram prior to September 11, 1992, is that
23    your testimony now?
24          A.     Sir, I don't like the fact that you
25    have inserted the word "now."
2601
 1          Q.     Strike the word "now."
 2          A.     It is my testimony again, and I am
 3    confusing these depositions and declarations
 4    because there has already been what, four of them
 5    thanks to the fact that your office again
 6    misrepresented the situation --
 7          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 8          A.     It is on record, sir.  You disrupted
 9    it and made it postponed.  It took nine months for
10    it to happen because of your misconduct.
11          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
12                 Were you physically threatened by
13    Mr. Ingram prior to September 11, 1992?  Yes or
14    no.
15          A.     No.
16          Q.     Thank you.
17          A.     You are welcome.
18          Q.     Let's go to Page 272.
19          A.     Of which exhibit?
20          Q.     Exhibit-3.  274, I am sorry.
21    Actually go back one page, sir, to 273.  And would
22    you please read from Line 21 of that Page 273 down
23    to Line 19 of 274.
24          A.     "Q.  The first step before I
25          take your deposition is I have
2602
 1          to make one more significant
 2          test of your credibility.  And
 3          that significant test of your
 4          credibility is I am going to
 5          make arrangements with the court
 6          reporter and you come in here
 7          and you initial every page of
 8          your declaration, you sign your
 9          declaration under penalty of
10          perjury and she will then
11          notarize it.
12                 "Can we go off the
13          record a second.
14                 "(Discussion off the
15          record.)
16          "BY MR. LEIPOLD (Continuing):
17                 "Q.  I have made
18          arrangements with the court
19          reporter.  Could you give he her
20          your telephone number.
21                 "A.  281-9088.
22                 "Q.  The court reporter
23          is going to call you when this
24          declaration transcript is
25          ready.  She will then make
2603
 1          arrangements to have you sign it
 2          here.  You will have to sign it
 3          under penalty of perjury and she
 4          will execute the notary public
 5          stamp on it.  I would request
 6          that you initial each page as
 7          you go along.
 8                 "A.  I would like to have
 9          a copy of it at that time.
10                 "Q.  Okay.  I will make
11          arrangements that once the
12          original is available to me that
13          the court reporter make up a
14          copy and give it to you.  Is
15          that acceptable?"
16          Q.     Answer?
17          A.     "A.  Yes."
18          Q.     Did you ever get a copy?
19          A.     No, I didn't.  I got a copy after I
20    signed it because he said that he wanted me to
21    have a signed copy.
22          Q.     Did you, in fact, initial every page?
23          A.     I believe I did.  If I look at it
24    again.  It has my initials on it.
25          Q.     Those are your initials at about the
2604
 1    bottom of each page?
 2          A.     Yes.
 3          Q.     Do you recall going through and
 4    initialing every page of this declaration?
 5          A.     Yes.
 6          Q.     That was on September 22, 1992?
 7          A.     That's correct.  I believe it is also
 8    signed September 22, '92.
 9          Q.     And did you understand when you
10    initialed each page that that was your attest that
11    these pages were actual transcriptions of your
12    testimony?
13          A.     Actually -- I am looking in the back
14    here.  The corrections show the 22nd of
15    September.  Whereas the declaration says executed
16    26th day of October, 1992.  And I forget whether
17    it was -- no, you are right.  This is the
18    deposition.  I have gotten confused.  Sorry.
19          Q.     So did you understand when you
20    initialed each page at the bottom right-hand
21    corner of this declaration that you were attesting
22    that each page was a true and accurate
23    transcription of your testimony?
24          A.     True and accurate to the best of my
25    recollection, yes, sir.  I think it is throughout
2605
 1    this -- I mean it is not throughout this one here,
 2    but throughout any time I have given testimony
 3    since leaving the church in September of '92, I
 4    have always said that I will do things on my
 5    recollection and memory.
 6          Q.     Right.  And this initialing and
 7    review took place 11 days after you gave the
 8    testimony, isn't that correct?
 9          A.     September -- yes.
10          Q.     Now, as part of the same process, did
11    you fill out the correction sheet?
12          A.     I did it as I went along.
13          Q.     Right.  As you made a correction you
14    finished -- let's say you finished Page 5 and
15    finished all the corrections and then you would
16    initial the page; is it correct?
17          A.     I am sorry.  I didn't understand.
18          Q.     Let me rephrase.  I am show you the
19    first page of the corrections.  Here you have Page
20    5 and you have four entries, right?
21          A.     Right.
22          Q.     One at Line 5, two at Line 7 and one
23    at Line 21?
24          A.     Right.
25          Q.     Why don't we go to that page.
2606
 1          A.     Page 5?
 2          Q.     Yes.
 3          A.     Okay.
 4          Q.     All right.  Now when you put your
 5    initials down there in the lower right corner of
 6    that Page 5, was it after you had finished the
 7    process of, A, reading the page and, B, writing
 8    out longhand on this correction sheet each one of
 9    the four corrections you deemed necessary on that
10    page?
11          A.     No.  What I did is, if I can recall,
12    is I went page by page.  I was instructed by the
13    court reporter who, in fact, only gave me one page
14    and I said I am going to need a lot more than one
15    page.  That I went and she told me the only thing
16    I really needed to worry about was misspellings
17    and grammar, the fact that information may have
18    been transposed.
19                 For example, I referred to Gerry
20    Armstrong at one time and they had put Gayle
21    Armstrong and they told me "The only thing you
22    really need to worry about is clarifications and
23    additions and misspellings."  I went page by
24    page.
25                 For example, it says Eunice Cleaver
2607
 1    and it should be Kliger, so I corrected it.  I
 2    went to the next page and did it until I got to
 3    the very end and then I simply initialed every
 4    page and then I signed it.
 5          Q.     That was part of the same process
 6    that you described here from nine o'clock to 10:30
 7    in the morning on the 22nd of September?
 8          A.     That is correct.  That's as I recall
 9    it, yes.
10          Q.     How long did it take you to go
11    through the entire 277-page transcript and make
12    these notes?
13          A.     I went in at nine o'clock and I had
14    to be out at a meeting room at 10:30.  And it was
15    like 10:25.  I was really pressing it.
16          Q.     And it is your testimony you made 18
17    pages of corrections in that time?
18          A.     Yes.  Because as I have said before,
19    I didn't read it first.  So I went initially -- it
20    was like correcting a test paper, sir.  I went to
21    a page and I corrected it, particularly things
22    where there were misspellings and stuff.  I was
23    told as far as direct content was concerned, that
24    I didn't have to worry about rephrasing things.
25    That, in fact, legally I wasn't able to rephrase
2608
 1    sentences and structure and stuff like that.  To
 2    simply make basic corrections on misspellings or
 3    words were out of order.
 4          Q.     How many times have you attempted
 5    suicide, Mr. Scarff?
 6          A.     That's a privacy question.  It is
 7    none of your business.
 8          Q.     How many times have you attempted
 9    suicide since 1982?
10          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
11          Q.     How many times have you attempted
12    suicide before 1982?
13          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
14          Q.     Are you saying that you are refusing
15    to answer those questions?
16          A.     Yes.
17          Q.     I assume that -- let me get this
18    straight.  When you say "Asked and answered,
19    Counselor," you are not going to answer any more
20    questions as to what I am asking you; is that
21    right?
22          A.     Yes.
23          Q.     Then we will just have to take that
24    to court; is that right?
25          A.     Well, Counselor, I have read Judge
2609
 1    Tassopoulos' ruling and --
 2          Q.     Yes or no?
 3          A.     I am answering your question, sir.
 4    According to Judge Tassopoulos in her ex parte
 5    ruling dated August 3rd, 1993, Page 33;
 6    "THE COURT:  It is up to the witness to either
 7    answer them or not answer them.  The witness can
 8    claim whatever privilege."
 9          Q.     So what privilege are you claiming
10    when you say asked and answered?
11          A.     Judge Tassopoulos says, "Privacy
12    would be the one they would be claiming I
13    suppose."
14                 Privacy, sir.  That's a private
15    issue.
16          Q.     Any time I ask you a question you
17    claim you are not going to answer it by saying
18    asked and answered, that's a privacy claim?
19          A.     Sir, it is --
20          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, misstates the
21    record.
22          THE WITNESS:  Sir, it is my feeling, my
23    opinion and particularly based on what I have read
24    in the judge's ruling, which you seem to want to
25    ignore, sir, is that anything with regards to my
2610
 1    family, medical history, personal history is my
 2    business.  Now, if the judge wants me to talk
 3    about it, we will let the judge make that ruling,
 4    but you, sir, are not in the position to require
 5    that from me and no, I will not answer it.
 6    BY MR. BOWLES:
 7          Q.     Was the Willemette Week newspaper
 8    free on the streets in 1985, sir?
 9          A.     Yes, it was.  You mean, you are
10    talking about when church members stole all the
11    newspapers out of is the bins, yes.
12          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
13                 Those were free at the time?
14          A.     There were two editions, sir.  They
15    had a free edition made available in the bins and
16    they also had editions which I believe cost a
17    dollar at the time and it was to pay for their
18    advertisement.  I believe it went both ways at the
19    time.  I think it remains such as now.  If you are
20    outside the Multnomah County area, which Portland
21    is a part of, then it cost like a dollar.  But it
22    is free within the boundaries of Multnomah
23    County.  That is my understanding.  I could be
24    incorrect.
25          Q.     Let's take a look at some of your
2611
 1    testimony on direct.
 2                 Remember the allegation you have made
 3    in this deposition under oath that there was a
 4    planning meeting in November after a so-called
 5    disruption of the Jewish Federation Center in
 6    mid-November 1991.
 7          A.     I am sorry --
 8          Q.     Remember you were testifying to that?
 9          A.     If you tell me what the question
10    was.  I didn't understand it.  You are talking
11    through your hands there, sir.
12          Q.     I am asking if you remember having
13    testified to this so-called meeting you had with
14    certain people on Sunday evening, November 17th,
15    1991 in which you claim the murder of Cynthia
16    Kisser was plotted.
17          A.     First of all, one, it was not a
18    so-called meeting.  Two, it did occur.  Secondly,
19    I never said on record that it was Sunday night.
20    I said it was the early hours of Sunday morning
21    because the disruption occurred on Saturday night
22    at the Jewish Federation Center in Los Angeles.
23    And it occurred thereafter.
24                 And I believe that I have stated on
25    record numerous times that it occurred around
2612
 1    12:00, 12:30 in the morning, very late in the
 2    morning on Sunday.  So it would make it Sunday
 3    morning, not Sunday night, so it is not a
 4    so-called meeting, it is a meeting of which you
 5    are well aware of.
 6          Q.     The A.M. meeting on Sunday, November
 7    17th, is that what you are referring to there?
 8          A.     I believe it was.  I don't recall the
 9    exact date, but it was Saturday night and it was
10    the anniversary of the Jonestown tragedy.
11          Q.     That was a pretty important meeting,
12    wasn't it?
13          A.     You tell me.  You are the one that
14    orchestrated it.
15          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
16          A.     Why don't you tell me if it was
17    important enough.  You are the one that wanted
18    this lady dead.  You wanted Cynthia Kisser dead.
19    You tell me.  You orchestrated it.
20          Q.     Let's get to the truth.
21          A.     It is the truth.
22          Q.     Why don't you read now from Page 354
23    to the bottom of the next page.
24                 If it was an important meeting you
25    would remember who was there, wouldn't you?
2613
 1          A.     I remember the meeting.
 2          Q.     This is a very serious matter,
 3    murder, isn't it?
 4          A.     You are the one that brought it up.
 5    Why don't you answer that question.
 6          Q.     Yes or no, serious, wasn't it?
 7          A.     I think it is very serious, yes.
 8          Q.     So you would remember who was there?
 9          A.     Yes.  I think it is very serious,
10    Mr. Bowles, that you as an attorney would order
11    someone to go murder another individual simply
12    because you can't stand the fact that people tell
13    the truth about your church.  You can't stand the
14    fact that the people outside the Church of
15    Scientology are well aware that you are committing
16    fraud and crimes.  And pretty soon you are going
17    to be held responsible for it, sir.
18          Q.     Nice act.
19          A.     When you are behind bars I will be
20    there applauding and then we will come back to a
21    deposition and talk, won't we, sir.
22                 Nice act?
23          Q.     Command performance, Mr. Scarff.
24                 Why don't you read the pages, that I
25    asked you to read.
2614
 1          A.     Mr. Bowles, fuck you.
 2          Q.     Read the pages, sir.
 3          A.     I don't understand the question you
 4    asked.  You are too busy intimidating me here to
 5    answer any questions.
 6          Q.     Are you ready to smile now,
 7    Mr. Scarff?
 8          A.     Excuse me.  You are the one that has
 9    been laughing throughout this entire proceeding.
10    Don't forget there is a videotape on you too you
11    seem to forget that.
12          Q.     I didn't detect a smile there,
13    Mr. Scarff, did I?
14          A.     Was there a smile?  I don't recall
15    smiling.  I recall being angry with the fact that
16    here is an attorney misrepresenting himself as an
17    attorney who ordered the killing of somebody.  I
18    think that is very serious.
19          Q.     You lie when you get angry?
20          A.     Mr. Bowles, I will be damn if I am
21    going to sit here and let you rap all over me.
22          Q.     You lie when you get angry?
23          A.     I get angry with the fact that here I
24    am trying to tell the truth and you are here only
25    to stall and misrepresent these proceedings.  You
2615
 1    have already tried to force it to stop and the
 2    judge simply overruled you.  You can't stand the
 3    fact that you are losing in this case and the only
 4    reason you are here is to muddy the waters and to
 5    confuse the issues because you know you are
 6    losing.  You can't stand losing, can you,
 7    Mr. Bowles?
 8          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 9          A.     You can't get it.
10          Q.     Let's answer the question.
11          A.     Your head is too rock hard,
12    Mr. Bowles.  You are losing and you can't stand
13    it, sir.
14          Q.     Let's ask the question, Mr. Scarff.
15          A.     I can't ask the question.  You have
16    to ask the question.
17          Q.     I want you to read from Page 354,
18    Line 8 to the bottom of the next page.
19          A.     How come your neck is twitching
20    Mr. Bowles?  Your neck is twitching.  Do you have
21    a medical problem?
22          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
23          A.     Of course.  Anything that is the
24    truth is nonresponsive to you.
25                 "Q.  Can you tell me who was
2616
 1          involved in those other
 2          conversations?
 3                 "A.  It was specifically
 4          David Butterworth, Eugene Ingram
 5          and myself initially.
 6                 "Q.  And where did
 7          that -- was there one
 8          conversation or more than one
 9          conversation?
10                 "A.  There was more than
11          one conversation.  The specifics
12          of this conversation I was told
13          initially from David Butterworth
14          was something very important
15          that they wanted me to do but he
16          could not talk about it and it
17          occurred very late at night
18          following the disruption we had
19          attempted to perform at the
20          Jewish Federation Center in Los
21          Angeles with Patricia Ryan and
22          Priscilla Coates, who were
23          members of the Cult Awareness
24          Network who were holding a
25          Jonestown ceremony.
2617
 1                 "Q.  When did this
 2          conversation occur roughly?
 3                 "A.  Roughly after 12:30
 4          in the morning so it would have
 5          been actually the next morning
 6          of Sunday irrelevantly morning
 7          when it occur.
 8                 "Q.  Sunday when?
 9                 "A.  November.  I believe
10          it was the 17th which is the
11          actual date of the Jonestown
12          tragedy.
13                 "Q.  And then who was
14          present at that conversation?
15                 "A.  Eugene Ingram, David
16          Butterworth and some other
17          people that I don't know.  I
18          didn't even know who they were.
19          But he told me that they were
20          both from the legal office and
21          they worked in the OSA.
22                 "Q.  And by legal office,
23          what do you mean?
24                 "A.  There is -- they
25          weren't individuals that I know
2618
 1          now to have met with Bowles &
 2          Moxon but down on the floor
 3          where the OSA exists.  There is
 4          an office adjoining the war room
 5          there which they refer to as the
 6          legal office.  And the person in
 7          that legal office is the name of
 8          Linda Saclovich and a woman by
 9          the name of Terri whose last
10          name I don't recall but she was
11          always in a Sea Org. uniform
12          when I spoke with here."
13                 This is an uncorrected
14          copy.
15          Q.     What is the your correct testimony?
16          A.     This is from the Noon & Pratt records
17    and I have not corrected this.
18          Q.     What is your correct testimony?
19          A.     Sir, my testimony is correct.  I am
20    just saying some of the words are out of line
21    here.
22          Q.     What are the typos in that passage
23    you just read?
24          A.     Well, the "Jewish Federation Center"
25    should be capital letters.  And where it says,
2619
 1    "with Patricia Ryan and Priscilla Coates."  It
 2    should take "where Patricia Ryan and Priscilla
 3    Coates, who were members of the Cult Awareness
 4    Network, were holding a Jonestown commemorative
 5    ceremony."
 6                 There is a second line, Line 18 that
 7    starts with "that I know now to have met with
 8    Bowles & Moxon."
 9          Q.     Page number, sir?
10          A.     3355.  And I would have to read back
11    because that doesn't make sense to me, that
12    sentence as it is written or transcribed.
13                 And then the last sentence says "But
14    she was always in a Sea Org. uniform when I spoke
15    with here."
16          Q.     What did you actually say to the best
17    of your recollection?
18          A.     I think it is "she was always in a
19    Sea Org. uniform when I spoke with her there."
20    But it is just a grammar --
21          Q.     So other than those points, is there
22    anything else in that passage that is incorrect in
23    terms of the transcription?
24          A.     Not that I can recall.  I
25    specifically remember talking to Eugene and David
2620
 1    Butterworth and there were people coming in and
 2    out all the time.
 3          Q.     What did Linda Saclovich look like?
 4          A.     I don't know what she looks like.  I
 5    have never met her.  I have talked to her many
 6    times on the telephone.
 7          Q.     She was in this meeting or not?
 8          A.     No.
 9          Q.     She wasn't in the meeting?
10          A.     No.  What I have said is that in the
11    OSA there is a legal affairs rep.  I was told that
12    Linda Saclovich was the person I needed to contact
13    if there was any type of legal stuff going on.
14          Q.     So you didn't mean to say here that
15    Linda Saclovich was in this meeting; is that
16    right?
17          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, misstates the
18    record.
19          THE WITNESS:  That's not what it says.  It
20    says:
21                 "A.  There is -- they
22          weren't individuals that I know
23          now to have met with Bowles &
24          Moxon" -- again I don't
25          understand what that says --
2621
 1          "but down on the floor where
 2          the OSA exists.  There is an
 3          office adjoining the war room
 4          there which they refer to as the
 5          legal office.  And the person in
 6          that legal office is the name of
 7          Linda Saclovich."
 8                 And I think what I meant to say is
 9    that one of the persons in that legal office is
10    Linda Saclovich because I have spoken with her on
11    the telephone, but I wasn't in the legal office.
12    There were people coming in and out of the OSA all
13    the time.  You know the setup down there so you
14    know what I am talking about.
15                 And I remember Terri in the Sea Org.
16    uniform but I didn't know her last name.  As you
17    well know, in the OSA office people work 24 hours
18    doing this intelligence stuff and they are
19    constantly walking in and out of offices all the
20    time particularly the computer room.
21          Q.     So you didn't mean to testify that
22    Linda Saclovich and the so-called Terri were
23    involved in this on November the 17th?
24          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, argumentative,
25    misstates the testimony.
2622
 1          THE WITNESS:  I would be speculating,
 2    Mr. Bowles, but I presumed at that time they knew
 3    what was going on.
 4          MR. BOWLES:  That wasn't my question.
 5          THE WITNESS:  I am answering your question.
 6    BY MR. BOWLES:
 7          Q.     No, you are not.
 8          A.     You are going to let me answer it,
 9    sir, or I have nothing to say to you.
10          Q.     Answer my question and then we will
11    get on with it.  I asked you whether they were
12    present at this meeting, if that was your
13    testimony.
14          A.     I think, and I stated before you so
15    callously interrupted me because you don't want
16    the truth here, that people were walking in all
17    the time.  Women were walking in at the time and I
18    presumed at the time they knew exactly what was
19    going on.  You can stop the bull-baiting because I
20    know what you are doing here.
21          Q.     Was Linda Saclovich one of the people
22    that walked in and out?
23          A.     I don't know whether Linda -- it is
24    not Siclovich it is Saclovich according to Linda.
25    I don't know.  I know she worked in the legal
2623
 1    office because.  I have had numerous conversations
 2    with her.
 3          Q.     You have had conversations with her
 4    but you have never met her?
 5          A.     It was on the telephone.  She
 6    identified to me as a secretary or administrative
 7    assistant of some sort to David Butterworth.  In
 8    fact in my personal contacts, which is in the
 9    exhibits, I list her as one of my personal
10    contacts.  It is on record, sir.
11          Q.     So you have never met her?
12          A.     No, I have only talked to her on the
13    telephone.
14          Q.     You have met Rick Moxon, haven't you?
15          A.     Yes.  Rick was here the other day in
16    fact.
17          Q.     What is his nickname?
18          A.     I don't know his nickname.  Why would
19    I know his nickname?
20          Q.     How do you address him?  How did you
21    address him?
22          A.     Ken.
23          Q.     Did others address him as Ken?
24          A.     I think Eugene called him Ken.
25          Q.     Is that a common name that was used
2624
 1    with Mr. Moxon in your presence?
 2          A.     I don't know what is a common name
 3    for Ken or not.  I referred to him as Ken.  At no
 4    time when I was on the telephone with you or Ken
 5    was I said it is Mr. Bowles or Mr. Moxon.  It was
 6    always Ken.
 7          Q.     I am talking about his first name.
 8          A.     His name is Kendrick.  I called him
 9    Ken.  He never corrected me.
10          Q.     He never corrected you?
11          A.     No.
12          Q.     How many times did you talk to him?
13          A.     I am going to say at least 10.  I
14    don't recall.  I don't have my telephone records
15    present.
16          Q.     At least 10.  Your telephone records
17    will show that?
18          A.     Mr. Bowles, you have just misstated
19    me again.  If you will let me finish the answer.
20          Q.     Go ahead.
21          A.     Are you sure?  You are not going to
22    interrupt me again?
23          Q.     Take your time.
24          A.     I have said before and I have said in
25    earlier testimony, I don't have copies of my
2625
 1    telephone records dated back two years ago.  I
 2    wish I had.  Because if I had them I would
 3    certainly enter them into evidence to show that
 4    the numerous phone calls and, there had to be over
 5    at least 100 phone calls in over a six-month
 6    period which were made to your office, sir, and
 7    the Office of Special Affairs.  It doesn't say on
 8    those phone bills, as you well know, where the
 9    calls went to and who I spoke to.  But I spoke to
10    these individuals and I can prove that the calls
11    went to your office and the Office of Special
12    Affairs.  The documents speak for themselves.  You
13    can't discredit telephone bills unless of course
14    you forge them as your office has done in the
15    past.
16          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
17          A.     We know what you do as far as
18    forgeries are concerned.
19          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
20          A.     That's truthful.
21                 But my telephone records will speak
22    to the fact that I have made numerous calls to
23    both your, office and the Office of Special
24    Affairs.  If you want to subpoena them, go for
25    it.  We will enter them into evidence.
2626
 1          Q.     We will do that.
 2          A.     I have answered your question.
 3          Q.     We will do that, Mr. Scarff.  You
 4    don't have a problem with that?  You would let
 5    your records come in, right?
 6          A.     I would allow Mr. Calhoun or any
 7    other attorney who is a defendant in one of these
 8    frivolous law suits to do it.  But I am not going
 9    give you any advantage, sir, because all you do is
10    misconstrue the facts and lie anyway.
11          Q.     We will get them subpoenaed and then
12    we can straighten that one right out.  We will
13    have to take your word for it as to who you spoke
14    with; is that right?
15          A.     It will blowup in your face but go
16    for it.
17          Q.     We will take your word for it as to
18    who you spoke with, right?
19          A.     Yes.  I think my word stands a lot
20    better than yours.
21          Q.     Let's get your words straight here a
22    little bit more, Mr. Scarff.  Let's take a look at
23    Exhibit-75.  It is a newspaper article.
24          A.     You are going to use a newspaper
25    article.  You have gone to such lengths to
2627
 1    discredit the media as lying and misrepresenting
 2    themselves and you are going right to the source.
 3    Boy, you are really on a losing -- God.  As much
 4    as you discredit the media and you are going to
 5    use go to the man that butchers Scientology?  This
 6    article butchers Scientology and you are going to
 7    use it as an exhibit.  Thank you.
 8          Q.     Do you stand by this article,
 9    Mr. Scarff?
10          A.     No, absolutely not.  In fact you can
11    bring Gwen Mayfield in here and she will be honest
12    and she will tell you that I was pissed off on
13    this article because this woman, Fiona Martin, if
14    you look at her reputation, particularly the last
15    article in which she refers to John Frohnmayer,
16    the national director of the Endowment for Arts as
17    a piss director or something, that this woman
18    flagrantly misconstrued information not only
19    against me but this really pissed off the Church
20    of Scientology according to Gwen Mayfield and
21    David Butterworth.  In fact it was this article
22    that George Robertson told me to contact Fiona
23    Martin and offer her $150 to buy it from her so it
24    would not be published and the money would have
25    come from OSA.  This article -- I don't -- a lot
2628
 1    of this information is true I assume because they
 2    spoke to Cynthia Kisser and they spoke to Adrian
 3    and Anne Greek.
 4          Q.     Let's take a look at these statements
 5    and you tell us whether they are true or not.
 6          A.     I am glad you brought this up.  Thank
 7    you very much because I think it will really show
 8    some facts here.  I wouldn't have thought about it
 9    unless you had brought it up.  Thank you.
10          Q.     The picture of yourself on the third
11    page, "Portlander Garry Scarff, would you buy a
12    used cult story from this man?"
13          A.     Yes.
14          Q.     What do you think about that
15    commentary?  Is that a fair commentary of you,
16    "Would you buy a used cult story from this man?"
17          A.     Do you know what it refers to?  The
18    body of the story which refers to the used cult
19    story is that I am with Scientology.  It refers to
20    the Church of Scientology which you are a member,
21    sir.
22          Q.     My question is, would you
23    characterize that as accurate?
24          A.     No.  Not at all.  The picture is me,
25    but, yes.  They are referring to Scientology
2629
 1    here.  Let's not skirt the issue.
 2          Q.     Let's go --
 3          A.     Do you want to address all the
 4    credibility of Scientology statements in here,
 5    sir?
 6          Q.     Let's go to the fourth page beyond
 7    that.  It is the one that has the exhibit logo in
 8    the bottom left corner calls "cults versus
 9    religion."
10          A.     Which one?
11          Q.     It has this logo down here.  There
12    you go.  All right.  Bottom right corner.  Quote,
13    "In conversation Scarff" -- why don't you read
14    that.
15          A.     Where is it at?  I don't see it.
16                 "In conversation Scarff initially
17    comes off as honest and sincere almost like a Boy
18    Scout who simply wants to explain what happened to
19    him when he crossed the street.  The trouble is
20    Scarff's version of what has happened to him too
21    keeps changing."
22          Q.     Is that quote, is that statement
23    accurate?
24          A.     No, it is not.  And if you follow the
25    information that follows, that it talks about
2630
 1    Scarff's affiliation with the Church of
 2    Scientology and the fact that the Church of
 3    Scientology would not confirm certain facts that
 4    this reporter wanted.  So let's not take things
 5    out of context, Mr. Bowles.  This refers to
 6    Scientology in which Scientology and both me
 7    denied a lot of information to this reporter.
 8                 In fact Gwen Mayfield is quoted in
 9    this article, sir, as not returning phone calls
10    and in fact supports me.
11          Q.     Before you had this so-called
12    Scientology line, you had another line, didn't
13    you, which was the CAN line?
14          A.     Excuse me.
15          Q.     You had another line which was the
16    CAN line of the truth, didn't you?
17          A.     What do you mean the CAN line?
18          Q.     Prior to you adopting what you claim
19    to be a Scientology line of the truth you had the
20    CAN line of the truth, didn't you?
21          A.     I don't understand your question.
22          Q.     Sorry?
23          A.     Sorry.  I would like to answer it if
24    you would rephrase it.
25          Q.     Before you went into Scientology, as
2631
 1    you claim and made claims about what Scientology
 2    was doing, you had claims as to what the Cult
 3    Awareness Network was doing truly, didn't you?
 4          A.     In what respects?
 5          Q.     In respect to their activities.
 6          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection, vague and
 7    ambiguous.
 8          THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I was working with
 9    Eugene Ingram.  I was being paid by Eugene
10    Ingram.  The money was coming from your office.  I
11    have got checks to prove it.  And I was being paid
12    to lie.  I mean Scientology is riddled with
13    professional liars.  You are a professional liar.
14    I admit I lied during the time I was working with
15    Scientology
16    BY MR. BOWLES:
17          Q.     Did you lie during the time you were
18    with CAN?
19          A.     Excuse me?
20          Q.     Did you lie during the time you were
21    with CAN?
22          A.     During the times I was doing
23    operations on CAN for the Church of Scientology,
24    for your employee, yes, I was lying.  I admit.
25          Q.     Were you lying before that?
2632
 1          A.     I have lied to them in the past, yes.
 2          Q.     Before you had gotten involved with
 3    Scientology as you claim?
 4          A.     Only with respect to The People's
 5    Temple thing.
 6          Q.     Yes.  Before 1982 you were lying
 7    about the CAN, in your CAN connection with The
 8    People's Temple?
 9          A.     That wasn't CAN, sir.  That was the
10    Positive Action Center.
11          Q.     That was Positive Action Center.  You
12    were lying with them, weren't you?
13          A.     Lower your voice.
14          Q.     It is cross-examination.
15          A.     I can't hear you when you are yell,
16    sir.
17          Q.     I am not yelling, as you know, and
18    the tape will show.  I am being firm.
19          A.     You are being firm?  I hear yelling.
20                 What I am trying to say yes, I lied.
21    It was very low-keyed with the Positive Action
22    Center -- you are even interrupting the court
23    reporter here.  Could you calm down a bit.  Your
24    neck is starting to buzz here.  Do you need to
25    take a break?
2633
 1          Q.     Don't bull-bait me.
 2          A.     Me bull-baiting the man -- I can't
 3    believe this.  You of all people threatening me,
 4    threatened to kill my parents and threatening to
 5    kill me through your employee, and I am
 6    bull-baiting you.  What a fallacy.  You are such a
 7    joke.
 8          Q.     Nice act.
 9          A.     The only act that you have here is
10    the fact that Scientology continues to exist and
11    you are part of it.
12          Q.     So you are just telling low-keyed
13    lies with pac; is that right?
14          A.     No.  I have already said it on
15    record, Mr. Bowles, and I will only say it one
16    time.  In order to procure a relationship with
17    Anne Greek I made up a story.  I have admitted to
18    that.  They know it.  You know it now.  It has
19    been on record.  It is throughout my deposition
20    testimony.  I don't see the point of regurgitating
21    it.
22          Q.     What do you mean by a low-keyed lie?
23          A.     I have just answered your question.
24    You are too busy bull-baiting me.  But it is on
25    record.  You can pull it out of the transcript
2634
 1    tomorrow.
 2          Q.     When you say it is a low-keyed lie,
 3    what do you mean?
 4          A.     Asked and answered.  It is on the
 5    record.  The record speaks for itself.
 6          Q.     Let's go to the next page.
 7          A.     Which page?
 8          Q.     After the page we just read.
 9          A.     With the little yellow thing on the
10    bottom?
11          Q.     Yes.
12          A.     Okay.
13          Q.     Next page.
14          A.     Okay.
15          Q.     Right-hand column?
16          A.     Okay.
17          Q.     Paragraph about halfway down the page
18    starts with "Whether or not Scarff."  Do you see
19    that?
20          A.     Okay.
21          Q.     If you could please read from there
22    to the bottom of the section just before the
23    capital letter S.  Do you see that big capital
24    letter S next to your thumb?
25          A.     Oh, this one.
2635
 1          Q.     Read from where it says, "Whether or
 2    not" and then read down to the last line just
 3    before that capital S where your pen is now.
 4          A.     "Whether or not Scarff had
 5          ever been accepted into the
 6          seminary, there are a number of
 7          reasons to believe that he had
 8          actually turned against the cult
 9          fighters many years ago.  For
10          example, in 1985 Scarff sent a
11          letter criticizing the Cult
12          Awareness Network to John
13          Biermans, the head of the legal
14          office for the Unification
15          Church.  In his letter Scarff
16          made many of the claims that
17          later appeared in this
18          affidavit.
19                 "Apparently in a rage at
20          the rejection of his application
21          to the seminary last year,
22          Scarff sent a five-page letter
23          to a Portland priest.  It was
24          copied to David Miscavige, L.
25          Ron Hubbard's successor as the
2636
 1          leader of Scientology.  The most
 2          provocative part of the letter
 3          reads 'in 1979 as part of a
 4          concocted plot by the Church of
 5          Scientology to destroy CAN, Cult
 6          Awareness Network, the plan was
 7          for me to become close to the
 8          Greeks and their associates and
 9          find information that could get
10          them criminally arrested or
11          cause them to go insane.'
12                 "Scarff now claims the
13          letter is fake but the signature
14          on the letter looks identical to
15          his as does a handwritten note
16          at the bottom.  The typeface is
17          the same as other Scarff letters
18          from that period and most
19          incriminating the language is in
20          his distinctly rambling paranoid
21          style."
22          THE WITNESS:  Why don't we take a short
23    break.
24          MR. BOWLES:  Why don't we answer the
25    question.
2637
 1          MR. CALHOUN:  There is no question.
 2    BY MR. BOWLES:
 3          Q.     What in that passage you just read is
 4    inaccurate, Mr. Scarff?  If anything.
 5          A.     You want to know what is inaccurate
 6    about that?
 7          Q.     Yes.
 8          A.     Where it defuses the fact that the
 9    Church of Scientology was involved in efforts to
10    destroy the Cult Awareness Network.  Where I say
11    that the letter is a fake.  And that's what is
12    wrong with this paragraph.  I was working for
13    Scientology at the time.
14                 In fact there is a statement, if you
15    want to get it on record, about the fact that Gwen
16    Mayfield from the Church of Scientology validates
17    me in this interview.  And if you also want to get
18    into it, the fact that in the previous paragraph
19    it refers to your employee, Eugene Ingram, in the
20    most unfattering terms.
21          Q.     The question is, Mr. Scarff, was it a
22    lie when you said in 1979 that there was a
23    concocted plot by the Church of Scientology to
24    destroy CAN that you were part of?
25          A.     First of all, the Cult Awareness
2638
 1    Network did not exist in 1979.
 2          Q.     She is quoting from this letter? Is
 3    that an accurate quote?
 4          A.     No, not in 1979 it wasn't.
 5          Q.     That was a lie, wasn't it?
 6          A.     Yes.  That was a lie.
 7          Q.     And that was in your letter to
 8    Reverend Kerns, wasn't it?
 9          A.     Yes.
10          Q.     You wrote that in a rage; is that
11    right?
12          A.     Yes, I did.
13          MR. BOWLES:  No further questions until
14    after lunch.
15          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
16    The date is August 16, 1993.  The time is 12:09
17    P.M.  End of Tape 1, Volume XIV, of the continuing
18    deposition of Mr. Scarff.
19                 (The luncheon recess was taken
20          at 12:09 P.M.)
21                 (At this point, PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN,
22          C.S.R. No. 2499 relieves LEE BRENNEMAN,
23          C.S.R. No. 5222 as the court reporter.)
24
25
2639
 1    APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
 2                 (P.M. SESSION)
 3
 4                 TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ.
 5
 6                 GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ.
 7
 8
 9
10
11
12
13
14          ALSO PRESENT:
15
16                 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR
17                 BOB BICKLER
18
19
20
21
22          REPORTED BY:
23
24                 PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, CSR No. 2499
25
2640
 1                 (The deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF
 2          was reconvened at 1:47 P.M.)
 3
 4                    GARRY L. SCARFF,
 5    having been previously duly sworn, testified
 6    further as follows:
 7
 8          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We are back on the record.
 9    Today is August 16th, 1993.  The time is
10    1:47 P.M.  Beginning of Tape 2, Volume XIV in the
11    continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff.
12          MR. BOWLES:  Mr. Calhoun, anything?
13          MR. CALHOUN:  On what?
14          MR. BOWLES:  Do you have anything to say?
15          MR. CALHOUN:  No.
16
17                 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING)
18    BY MR. BOWLES:
19          Q.     Mr. Scarff, you are under oath
20    still.  You understand that?
21          A.     Yep.
22          Q.     September 7th, 1992 when you met with
23    Dan Leipold, he asked you to tell him about crimes
24    that you knew of that supposedly the Church of
25    Scientology committed, didn't he?
2641
 1          A.     I didn't understand your question.
 2    Say what, now?
 3          Q.     When you met with Leipold in
 4    September of 1992, he asked you to tell him all
 5    about the crimes that you knew of that Scientology
 6    supposedly committed, didn't he?
 7          A.     I don't recall the exact
 8    questioning.  I might be able to find it in the
 9    transcript if you want me to find it.
10          Q.     No.  I am asking you for your
11    recollection.
12          A.     I don't recall what specific
13    questions he asked.
14          Q.     He asked you to tell all about Bowles
15    & Moxon and any crimes that you felt they may have
16    committed; isn't that right?
17          A.     I don't recall.  I can refer to the
18    transcript if you want me to look for it.
19          Q.     I am asking for your recollection.
20          A.     I don't recall.
21          Q.     You testified truthfully to him,
22    didn't you?
23          A.     Yes, I did.
24          Q.     Let's take a look at Exhibit-3.
25          A.     I don't have Exhibit-3.
2642
 1          Q.     Page 90.  Would you read from Line 18
 2    to the bottom of the page, please.
 3          A.     "My impression at first
 4          was that his name was Chris, and
 5          I think in the file
 6          'Declarations,' I have a copy
 7          of that first declaration where
 8          I refer to Chris.  Now John
 9          Carmichael assisted Eugene
10          Ingram in locating Eddy Fallon.
11          They eventually found the Fallon
12          parents to live in North Port,
13          which is a part of Long Island
14          in New York.  And it was from
15          there that we went on.  Anyway,
16          that is how I know John
17          Carmichael."
18          Q.     Okay.  Is that a true statement,
19    "Anyway, that is how I know John Carmichael"?
20          A.     Well, that's how I knew John
21    Carmichael at the time, yes, because there was a
22    long period of time I didn't know where John was.
23    And in this investigation which started out with a
24    woman by the name of Maureen in the Public Affairs
25    Office in New York I was told that John Carmichael
2643
 1    had worked with her.  And that's where I knew then
 2    where John Carmichael's whereabouts were at that
 3    time.  Because the last I had heard of him he had
 4    gone to Los Angeles.
 5          Q.     The comment here is "that is how I
 6    know John Carmichael."  There is no
 7    qualification.  Is that an inaccurate statement?
 8          A.     No, sir, and I just answered your
 9    question.  Again, you are taking it out of context
10    for your own purpose.  That's not the point here.
11    I said already how I knew John.  It's already on
12    record.  The record speaks for itself.  You are
13    simply grabbing at straws here, sir.
14          Q.     You didn't attempt to correct this
15    statement in this transcript, did you?
16          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
17          Q.     Yes or no?  Did you attempt --
18          A.     Asked and answered.  The record
19    speaks for itself.  It's been thoroughly discussed
20    on the record itself.  The record speaks for
21    itself.
22          Q.     I am talking about this Line 24 to
23    25, "Anyway that is how I know John Carmichael."?
24          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
25          Q.     So you are going to refuse -- just
2644
 1    hold on a second.
 2          A.     You are asking the question here.
 3          Q.     You are going to refuse to answer the
 4    question as to whether you attempted to correct
 5    this statement in this transcript or not?
 6          A.     No.  Mr. Bowles, I don't know
 7    whether, sir, you are simply a retarded individual
 8    or you just can't hear.  Because this deposition,
 9    which is now in its 16th day and I have discussed
10    this thoroughly many, many times before, evidently
11    you don't have a very good recall of the facts, is
12    that I have said before and I will say one more
13    time, although I have said I won't repeat myself
14    and I have done so numerous times already, is that
15    on September 11th given the time constraints that
16    I had, I corrected this to the best of my ability
17    at that time.  I initialed each page and I signed
18    it.
19                 If by an oversight I missed
20    something, then that's human.  I made a mistake.
21    People make mistakes.  Evidently you don't give
22    people credit for that but that's your problem.
23    That's not a problem that most other people don't
24    have.  And that's all I am going to say.  And I
25    think that's the best way I can answer your
2645
 1    question.  Nothing is black and white, sir.
 2          Q.     Okay.  Nothing is black and white.
 3    Is that your testimony?
 4          A.     I think that's --
 5          Q.     In this deposition?
 6          A.     That's a human condition.  That's how
 7    you have chosen to misrepresent and distort the
 8    facts in this case, sir.  You have taken things
 9    out of context.
10          Q.     That's your testimony.  It's not
11    black and white anywhere in your deposition; is
12    that right?
13          A.     I am saying, sir, everything that I
14    have said thus far in a declaration, in a
15    deposition has been from the best of my
16    recollection.
17          Q.     Okay.  So it's subject to change at
18    any time; is that right?
19          A.     No.  It's not subject to change.  I
20    mean, if I get hit by a car today and I lose my
21    memory, I am sure tomorrow it would be subject to
22    change because I wouldn't remember anything.
23          Q.     Okay.  Let's do a little
24    demonstration for the camera, shall we,
25    Mr. Scarff?
2646
 1          A.     I am not going to do a
 2    demonstration.  You are the one doing the
 3    demonstration for the camera, sir.  You are the
 4    actor here.
 5          Q.     Very clever.  Let's get on with the
 6    question.
 7                 This Exhibit-3 you corrected; right,
 8    you read through the whole thing?
 9          A.     To the best of my ability, sir.  I
10    have said this I don't know how many times.
11          Q.     So what I want you to do for the
12    camera now, let's take this page at random,
13    Page 90.  I want you to read through that page and
14    do as you did on September 22nd, 1992.  Show me
15    what you did.  Read the page then make your
16    corrections.
17          A.     How do you want me to do this?  I
18    don't understand your question.
19          Q.     Just as you did then, sir.
20          A.     What are you asking me to do?
21          Q.     I want you to start reading from the
22    top of the page to the bottom of the page.
23          A.     Okay.
24          Q.     And then right over here, you can
25    make this your worksheet over here.  We will make
2647
 1    it the next exhibit.  You can, first of all, on
 2    this page over here, why don't you put some
 3    columns.  We will start with "page" over here.
 4    Put "page."
 5          A.     Okay.
 6          Q.     Then I want you to put "line."  Then
 7    "reason."  And then finally "correction."  Put
 8    "reason" there.  Then "correction."  So let's
 9    just do as you did then.
10          A.     Okay.
11          Q.     I want you to read from the beginning
12    of the page to the end and then carry out the
13    corrections as you claim you did then.
14          MR. CALHOUN:  I will object to the procedure
15    as improper in deposition, Counsel.  You are
16    permitted to ask questions of the witness.  The
17    witness is not required to participate in
18    demonstrations of any form.
19    BY MR. BOWLES:
20          Q.     Have you started?
21          A.     No, sir.  I am waiting for the
22    objection.  I am waiting for the court reporter to
23    do her job here.
24          Q.     Go ahead.  Are you ready?  Tell me
25    when you're ready.
2648
 1          A.     When the court reporter tells me it's
 2    okay, I will be ready, sir.
 3          Q.     Tell you what.  Go to Page 95 and do
 4    it on Page 95.
 5          MR. CALHOUN:  Same objection.  Improper for
 6    a deposition format.
 7          MR. BOWLES:  Well, if you are going to use
 8    this in trial, then we are going to be entitled to
 9    do this on cross-exam.
10          MR. CALHOUN:  Counsel, read the cases.  They
11    limit you to a right to ask questions of the
12    witness, not to compel the witness to participate
13    in demonstrations or diagrams of any sort.
14    BY MR. BOWLES:
15          Q.     Have you started, Mr. Scarff?
16          A.     No, I am waiting for you two to
17    finish.
18          Q.     Go ahead and start right now.
19          A.     Okay.
20          Q.     Okay.  One minute and eight seconds.
21    Is that about how much time you took?  Is this
22    about how much time you took on each page when you
23    were working through this on September 22nd,
24    1991?
25          A.     I don't recall.
2649
 1          Q.     '92, I mean.
 2          A.     I don't recall.
 3          Q.     So are these accurate corrections
 4    now?  Are those accurate corrections, sir?
 5          A.     From what I have read just now, yes.
 6    I did not read specifically the content of this.
 7    You did not provide me the opportunity to read
 8    three or four pages before to know what this is
 9    about.  Again, you are trying to pull something
10    out of context and hit me with it.  It just goes
11    to show that you are losing this thing.
12          Q.     Let's take a look at your actual
13    corrections for Page 95.  You tell me if those are
14    correct.  Why don't you read the first one that
15    you entered there.  Which line was it?
16          A.     Page 95, Line 6, rephrase "listed his
17    church the Christian Fellowship Church."  So I
18    don't see the point.  What I have in the
19    transcript it says, "He was very upset that CAN
20    had listed his organization as a cult
21    organization."  I rephrased it "listed his church
22    the Christian Fellowship Church as a cult
23    organization."  That's simply to clarify the
24    point.
25                 Also --
2650
 1          Q.     Let me ask you a question on that.
 2    So you made that correction in the course of your
 3    actually reviewing this Exhibit-3?
 4          A.     I did, yes.
 5          Q.     All right.  Go to the next one.
 6    That's an accurate correction; is that right?
 7          A.     Well, I signed it.  Yeah.  I mean, I
 8    did it.
 9          Q.     Okay.  Next one.
10          A.     Line 19, go back to the sentence "And
11    that he had a major disagreement with Eugene
12    Ingram about the Cult Awareness Network because
13    Peter Paine has always said that I do not feel
14    that the Cult Awareness Network should cease to
15    exist."
16                 My correction was "Peter Paine has
17    always said that he does" whereas -- this is a
18    correction here.
19          Q.     Okay.  That's a proper correction?
20          A.     Right.  As this is a conversation
21    based from Peter Paine.
22                 And then Line 23.  The sentence a few
23    lines before that "they should simply become more
24    honest and have integrity in what they do and how
25    they approach people and how they criticize
2651
 1    people."
 2                 And my correction was "attacks on his
 3    church."  Because he was referring in this to the
 4    Christian Fellowship Church and she had typed
 5    "their attacks on my church are unfair" and I was
 6    not a member of the Christian Fellowship Church.
 7          Q.     So that's a correct correction; is
 8    that right?
 9          A.     Uh-huh.  Yes.
10          Q.     Thank you.
11                 So how long do you recall -- the
12    three corrections you actually made on Page 95, do
13    you recall how long that would have taken you to
14    work out?
15          A.     I don't recall.  I mean, it was page
16    by page.  I knew that my time was limited.  And I
17    went as fast as I could.  I saw that -- the
18    easiest things that I could pick out is that I am
19    a very good speller, sir, and I picked out the
20    misspellings in that.  That's the first thing that
21    I noticed right away.  And so it was just as fast
22    as I could do it given the time that I had.
23          Q.     And were you kicked out of the
24    conference room at 10:30?
25          A.     Was I kicked out of the conference
2652
 1    room, you mean forcefully ejected?
 2          Q.     No.  Were you asked to leave?
 3          A.     No.  No.  The manager told me that I
 4    had an hour and a half.  And I was -- I respected
 5    that.
 6          Q.     So you left at 10:30?
 7          A.     At 10:25 I told her that I had
 8    completed it.  That I left the room.  And then I
 9    accompanied her down the hallway to a law office
10    which was on the same floor as the reporting
11    service and in that law office there was a notary
12    public.  And that's who notarized this document.
13    It was a law office down the hallway.
14          Q.     So you took the completed document to
15    the notary public and had it notarized before
16    her?
17          A.     I didn't take it down.  The manager
18    of Teach's Reporting took it down but I followed
19    her.
20          Q.     And you signed it before the notary?
21          A.     Yes, I did, and it was in that law
22    office.
23                 Let me take a quick break, sorry.
24    About to lose my guts here.
25          MR. BOWLES:  Okay.
2653
 1          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
 2    The time is 2:01 P.M.
 3                 (Recess taken.)
 4          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We are back on the record.
 5    The time is 2:03 P.M.
 6    BY MR. BOWLES:
 7          Q.     So in 90 minutes time you went
 8    through all 276 pages of this, made all these
 9    corrections and made these initials; is that
10    right?
11          A.     As I have said before, Mr. Bowles,
12    and I believe this is the fourth time I have
13    addressed that, is I went through it as fast as I
14    could and as expediently as I could within the
15    hour and a half that I was given.  And as I have
16    said before, if you have any problems with that
17    testimony, why don't you call Teach's Reporting
18    and talk to the manager and ask for her
19    recollection of that day.
20          Q.     So it's your testimony that you
21    spent, what, 15 seconds on each page?
22          A.     I don't recall, Mr. Bowles.
23          Q.     Work out the math, Mr. Scarff.
24          A.     Mr. Bowles --
25          Q.     That's what you are testifying to.
2654
 1          A.     No, I am not testifying to any math.
 2    That's what you are bringing up, sir.  You are
 3    again taking something out of context here.  And
 4    you are asking me to speculate and speculation to
 5    me is not truth and accuracy, sir, so I can't give
 6    you an answer.
 7          Q.     What are you speculating on,
 8    Mr. Scarff?  Are you speculating on how much time
 9    you took to do these corrections?
10          A.     Mr. Bowles -- By the way, stop
11    winking at me.  I know you are not attracted to me
12    so you don't need to wink at me, sir.
13                 I am not going to speculate on
14    anything period.  I am here to tell the truth
15    about facts.  You have already said on record you
16    don't want me to guess.  You don't want me to
17    estimate.  You have said that several times.
18    Mr. Wiener has said, your co-counsel has sat here
19    in cross-examination and said, "I don't want you
20    to estimate.  I don't want you to guess at
21    anything," and here you are, sir, telling me to
22    guess.  You are telling me to speculate.  So which
23    is it?  Do you want me to guess or not?  Make up
24    your mind.
25          Q.     What is 90 divided -- what is 277
2655
 1    divided by 90?
 2          A.     Give me a calculator and I will be
 3    happy to tell you, sir.  Give me a calculator, I
 4    will be happy to tell you what 277 divided --
 5          Q.     Why don't we just do it together.
 6          A.     Why don't you do it, sir.
 7          MR. BOWLES:  This should be marked as the
 8    next exhibit in sequence, the demonstration page
 9    for the corrections.  I think it's 197.
10                 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 197
11          was marked for identification and is
12          bound separately.)
13    BY MR. BOWLES:
14          Q.     We also know, don't we, Mr. Scarff,
15    that three times nine is 27.
16          A.     I believe that's correct.
17          Q.     Would you agree with that?
18          A.     Oh, I would believe it, yeah.
19          Q.     So 90 divided into 277 is pretty
20    close to three, isn't it?  Might have a seven
21    remainder.  Isn't that right?
22          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; Counsel, your math
23    is in error.  It's 30 remainder seven.
24          MR. BOWLES:  Thank you, sir.  I don't think
25    so.  90 into 277.
2656
 1          MR. CALHOUN:  Correct.  Three, remainder
 2    seven.
 3    BY MR. BOWLES:
 4          Q.     Do you agree with that, Mr. Scarff?
 5          A.     I am not going to agree with anything
 6    until I figure it up here.  And I know that you
 7    want to play a math quiz here.  It's three minutes
 8    something.
 9          Q.     Tell you what, just realizing we need
10    to do it the opposite way.  We need to divide 277
11    into 90, that would give us -- we will come back
12    to that.  We will come back to that, all right?
13                 Make any police reports on the
14    supposed conversations about murder plots,
15    Mr. Scarff?
16          A.     I believe so.  I believe there is a
17    police report on it, yes.
18          Q.     Is it an exhibit in this case?
19          A.     I believe so.
20          Q.     You believe so?  If it's not an
21    exhibit in this deposition, does it exist?
22          A.     Mr. Bowles, you are asking me to
23    remember if one exhibit out of, I believe, what
24    now, 192 exhibits, exist?  If you are going to ask
25    me that question, I will be happy to give you that
2657
 1    answer.  You are going to have to wait for it and
 2    I will look for it.
 3          Q.     You are talking about the police
 4    report that dealt with the Waukegan incident,
 5    aren't you?
 6          A.     You have asked -- I will look for
 7    it.
 8          Q.     Which you look for it, I will ask
 9    this question:  If it's not an exhibit in this
10    deposition, does it exist?
11          A.     Sir, you have asked me one question.
12    I am going to answer one question at a time.  And
13    I am going to find that exhibit now.  And then I
14    will answer that first question you have.
15          Q.     Exhibit-97.
16          A.     Well, Mr. Bowles, I have said I am
17    going to find the first exhibit.  I don't need you
18    to lead me on, sir.  And since --
19          Q.     So you are going to take the time to
20    walk all the way through the exhibits; is that
21    right, sir?
22          A.     You have asked me a question and I
23    have told you I want to provide you a truthful and
24    accurate answer.  If you are not going to allow me
25    an opportunity to answer your question with truth
2658
 1    and accuracy, what's the point of being here,
 2    sir?  Yes, I am going to go through my exhibits,
 3    sir.
 4          Q.     It's the first one that's a police
 5    report.
 6          A.     Well --
 7          Q.     And it's the last.
 8          A.     Given the veracity you have for
 9    telling the truth, I would just rather look for it
10    myself, sir.
11          Q.     Exhibit-97, Portland Police Bureau,
12    Case No. 929540, time and date reported 10-25-92.
13          A.     There was another reference, sir,
14    before that.  And that's why I want to answer your
15    question with truth and accuracy.  I just need to
16    find it.
17          Q.     Mr. Scarff, we have taken about three
18    minutes for your show.
19          A.     No, Mr. Bowles, I have already been
20    advised by counsel that when I need to refer to an
21    exhibit particularly an exhibit that is not
22    chronologged and I have no idea where something
23    is, that I have a right to refer to it
24    irrespective of what the cross-examination
25    attorney feels in a situation.
2659
 1                 Now, if you again want to go to court
 2    and get a ruling on that, so be it.  But while I
 3    am here in this deposition, sir, you will not
 4    control the manner in which I make my answers and
 5    you certainly will not control the manner in which
 6    I choose to refer to exhibits which is my right as
 7    a witness, sir.  So if that's a problem, take it
 8    up with the judge.  But you have asked me to refer
 9    to an exhibit, which has no chronology to it.  It
10    has no glossary with which I can --
11          Q.     I will withdraw the question.
12          A.     Okay.
13          Q.     Did you file a police report on the
14    incident that you claimed occurred on
15    November 17th, 1991 in which you met with Eugene
16    Ingram and David Butterworth to plot the murder of
17    Cynthia Kisser?
18          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; misstates the
19    evidence.
20          THE WITNESS:  On November 17th did I file a
21    complaint?
22    BY MR. BOWLES:
23          Q.     No.  After that.
24          A.     I have filed several letters which I
25    can guess you can infer as complaints regarding
2660
 1    those discussions and what happened and the
 2    individuals involved, yes.
 3          Q.     Have you filed a formal police
 4    complaint with any law enforcement agency of the
 5    State of California with regard to that incident?
 6          A.     Law enforcement.  Not that I can
 7    recall.  Not in the State of California, no.
 8          Q.     That incident occurred in the State
 9    of California, didn't it?
10          A.     I'm sorry?
11          Q.     That incident occurred in the State
12    of California, didn't it?
13          A.     The police report?
14          Q.     No, sir, the meeting you had on
15    November 17th as you claim that David Butterworth
16    and the other fellow, Gene Ingram to so call plot
17    the murder of Cynthia Kisser, that occurred in
18    California, didn't it?
19          A.     That occurred in California,
20    correct.
21          Q.     At any time have you filed a police
22    report in the State of Oregon with regard to that
23    incident?
24          A.     Yes, I have.
25          Q.     When was that?
2661
 1          A.     That's why I am going to refer to the
 2    exhibit, Mr. Bowles.  That's -- Mr. Bowles, you
 3    are simply reiterating the first question that you
 4    have withdrawn, now you are bringing it up again
 5    and that's why I have chose to refer to the
 6    exhibit.  Now, either you want me to refer to the
 7    exhibit or not.  Either you have withdrawn the
 8    question or it's a pending question.  Make up your
 9    mind, sir.  You have simply reasked the question
10    which you have already withdrawn.
11          Q.     No.
12          A.     No.  What you are trying to do is
13    prevent me from referring to the exhibit so I can
14    give you an accurate answer.  You are simply
15    pulling things out of context.  And I am not going
16    to let you, sir, I have a right to refer to the
17    exhibits and that's --
18          Q.     You are going to start with number
19    one, sir?
20          A.     No, sir.  I will show the court
21    reporter I am now on Exhibit-67.  You can ask her
22    if that's accurate or not.
23          Q.     So is it your testimony that if it's
24    in this set of exhibits, then it exists?
25          A.     I want to make sure, sir, because I
2662
 1    had a prior contact with a police official about
 2    the Church of Scientology.
 3          Q.     Go ahead and look at Exhibit-97.  It
 4    will save some time.
 5          A.     That's one police report.  Sir, there
 6    is another one, if I can find it.
 7          Q.     There is no other police report in
 8    this file, sir.  And you are wasting time.
 9          A.     Well, you have already said on
10    record, sir, that you have all the time in the
11    world to do this.  So I don't know why you are
12    complaining.  I am simply referring to an
13    exhibit.
14                 There is a card in here that has a
15    police officer's name on it with the Portland
16    Police Bureau which I am trying to find so I can
17    use that in my testimony.
18          Q.     Okay.  The question is withdrawn.
19          A.     Are you sure?
20          Q.     Yes.
21          A.     You are positive now?
22          Q.     We will come back to that.  You can
23    have all the time in the world to look at a
24    break.  Why don't you do this, you can look at it
25    overnight and we won't waste any time.
2663
 1          A.     I haven't been reading my transcripts
 2    overnight, sir.
 3          Q.     Mr. Scarff --
 4          A.     He has got the mouth.  Listen to
 5    him.
 6          Q.     Mr. Scarff, have you at any time
 7    filed with any law enforcement agency either
 8    within the State of California or the State of
 9    Oregon have you submitted a police report on the
10    so called meeting that occurred on September 21st,
11    1991 to plot the murder of Ford Greene?
12          A.     Yes, I have.
13          Q.     And to which agency did you file that
14    report?
15          A.     I refuse to give that information to
16    you, Mr. Bowles.
17          Q.     And why is that?
18          A.     I have been advised by the agency
19    that because it is a complaint which is under a
20    pending investigation, that I am under no
21    requirements to deny or confirm such an
22    investigation.  And that I simply am not required
23    under any circumstances to give you that
24    information.  If the judge rules that I say
25    something, whether that be in private or out in
2664
 1    the courtroom situation, so be it.  But I have
 2    been advised that I don't have to give that
 3    information.  Again, you are just going to have to
 4    look for it yourself, sir.  You know that exists.
 5          Q.     Yes or no, did you file a police
 6    report?
 7          A.     Yes, I have.
 8          Q.     With what agency?
 9          A.     I refuse to give you that
10    information, sir.
11          Q.     Was it with a state agency with the
12    State of California?
13          A.     Possibly.  But I refuse to give you
14    that information.
15          Q.     Was it with the L.A.P.D.?
16          A.     I refuse to give you that
17    information.  That's privileged information, sir.
18          Q.     Have you ever filed a police report
19    on that incident with any Oregon law enforcement
20    agency?
21          A.     I refuse to give that information.
22    Anything that I have given in context of a
23    complaint with a state local or federal agency
24    regarding the Church of Scientology and its
25    unlawful activities, I have been advised not only
2665
 1    by counsel but also by these officials that that
 2    is protected information.
 3          Q.     So we are going to have to go to
 4    court to get that; is that your testimony?
 5          A.     I am saying go to court, sir.  You
 6    have already threatened me numerous times you
 7    would do it, and you haven't done it yet.  So I
 8    wonder what the problem is.
 9          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
10          A.     Okay.
11          Q.     Mr. Scarff, we will go to the court
12    when we have compiled the full array of your
13    obstructionist deposition.
14                 Take a look at Exhibit-19, sir.
15          A.     I am sure you will lose on those
16    grounds, too, but you have nothing better to do
17    with your time, do you?
18          Q.     Exhibit-19.  I think maybe the court
19    reporter has the original.  You can look at that.
20          A.     That's all right.  I have my exhibit
21    here.
22          Q.     Now, you are contending that you
23    attended a planning meeting for the death of Ford
24    Greene on or about December 20, 1991, aren't you?
25          A.     That's correct.
2666
 1          Q.     That's a fairly serious charge, isn't
 2    it?
 3          A.     I consider it a serious charge and I
 4    think you belong behind bars for it, yes.
 5          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 6                 That was a pretty heavy meeting
 7    according to you, wasn't it?
 8          A.     Define "heavy" for me.
 9          Q.     It was a very -- carried a lot of
10    weight, didn't it?
11          A.     I think any time someone mentions
12    wanting to kill somebody that carries a lot of
13    weight.
14          Q.     That subjected, according to you, a
15    whole bunch of people to criminal prosecution,
16    didn't it?
17          A.     Say that again.  I didn't understand
18    your question.
19          MR. BOWLES:  She can read it back.
20                 (Record read.)
21          THE WITNESS:  I guess.  I still don't
22    understand your question.  No one has been
23    prosecuted for this that I know of.
24    BY MR. BOWLES:
25          Q.     But it's your testimony that it would
2667
 1    subject people to criminal prosecution; isn't that
 2    right?
 3          A.     It is my --
 4          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
 5    speculation.  Lacks foundation.
 6          THE WITNESS:  It is my belief, Mr. Bowles,
 7    and you should know this as an attorney, that
 8    anyone that commits to killing anyone can be held
 9    culpable for prosecution.  That's my understanding
10    of the law.
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     Okay.  So it's important for you to
13    tell us specifically and exactly who was at that
14    meeting; isn't that right?
15          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
16    speculation.  Lacks foundation.
17          THE WITNESS:  That, if that's how you
18    characterize it, sir, so be it.
19    BY MR. BOWLES:
20          Q.     Well, you would remember that meeting
21    pretty vividly, wouldn't you?
22          A.     I remember the meeting.
23          Q.     Vividly; is that right?
24          A.     Mr. Bowles, what's vivid to you?
25          Q.     Do you remember every single person
2668
 1    who was at that meeting?
 2          A.     I seem to recall the people that were
 3    in attendance, yes.
 4          Q.     And you have told the truth each time
 5    you have recounted that meeting, haven't you?
 6          A.     I have tried, yes.
 7          Q.     Was Randy Spencer at that meeting?
 8          A.     No.  He was not.
 9          Q.     You have said in a court document
10    that Randy Spencer was at a meeting, haven't you?
11          A.     Mr. Bowles, we have gone over this
12    and I have gone over this at least twice on record
13    as to that comment and I am not going to answer
14    the question again.  The record speaks for
15    itself.  It's in the transcript.  You can refer to
16    it.  You have been reading the transcripts on a
17    daily basis, not I.  And you know where it's at.
18    You know I corrected this.
19          Q.     That's not my question, Mr. Scarff.
20          A.     You have asked it and I have answered
21    it, Mr. Bowles.  Move on because I am not going to
22    play these little shenanigan games with you.
23    That's what you do at the church.  I don't have
24    time for it, sir.  Show some maturity, will you?
25          Q.     Strike as nonresponse.
2669
 1          A.     It is responsive and it's true.
 2          Q.     Have you ever claimed in a court
 3    document that Randy Spencer attended this
 4    meeting?
 5          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.  You
 6    have already asked it on record.  You have asked
 7    it at least twice already during this deposition.
 8    I have gone to great lengths to clarify it.  If
 9    you have nothing more to do then to spend your
10    time dwiddling with things that have already been
11    discussed, it's very apparent that you are losing
12    and you have no place to go with this.  So why are
13    we here?  I am not under any constraints to
14    constantly answer questions that have already been
15    asked and answered, sir.  You have asked and I
16    have answered.
17          Q.     You have the obligation to answer
18    questions in a cross-examination.
19          A.     Not when you have asked and it's been
20    answered already.  I have already answered to
21    great detail about this declaration.  It's on
22    record.
23          Q.     To Mr. Berry.
24          A.     It's on record.
25          Q.     Not on cross-examination, have you?
2670
 1          A.     Yes.  I have.  Mr. Wiener brought it
 2    up and you have brought it up.
 3          Q.     The record will speak for itself.
 4          A.     The record speaks for itself.  I have
 5    already went over great lengths particularly with
 6    Mr. Wiener in this.  And as far as Mr. Berry, yes,
 7    I have gone over with great lengths with
 8    Mr. Berry.  You could have been here if you wanted
 9    to, but you were obstructionist to this
10    deposition.
11          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
12          A.     Deliberately obstructing this
13    deposition with a bad faith ex parte application
14    which was thrown right out the window, sir.  That
15    was your doing, not mine, sir.  Don't blame me.
16    Just because you can't behave in the court process
17    it's your problem, not mine.
18          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
19                 In your court document when you claim
20    Randy Spencer was at the meeting, that was a lie,
21    wasn't it, Mr. Scarff?
22          A.     Asked and answered.  Let's move on.
23          Q.     Who was actually at that meeting in
24    place of Mr. Spencer?
25          A.     Court records speak for itself,
2671
 1    Mr. Bowles.  Asked and answered.
 2          Q.     You have claimed that Laurie
 3    Bartilson was at the meeting instead of
 4    Mr. Spencer, haven't you?
 5          A.     Asked and answered.
 6          Q.     You are going to refuse to answer
 7    that question; is that right?
 8          A.     Asked and answered, sir.
 9          Q.     Randy Spencer is a little difficult
10    to differentiate from Laurie Bartilson; is that
11    your testimony?
12          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
13          THE WITNESS:  Asked and answered,
14    Counselor.
15    BY MR. BOWLES:
16          Q.     Did you mistake Randy Spencer for
17    Laurie Bartilson, sir?
18          A.     Asked and answered.
19          Q.     When was it asked and answered?
20          A.     The record speaks for itself.
21          Q.     You are refusing to answer that
22    question?
23          A.     I refuse to answer this question,
24    yes.  I am not going to be toyed with by an
25    attorney who can't make any sense of what's going
2672
 1    on here.  Cross-examination does not give you the
 2    right to squash people at will simply because it's
 3    fun for you to do so.  This is a very serious
 4    process.  It's already on record.
 5          Q.     Do you feel like you are getting
 6    squashed, Mr. Scarff?
 7          A.     No, Mr. Bowles, but I know exactly
 8    why you are here and half the world, half the
 9    judicial system that knows what justice is all
10    about knows exactly why you are here and that's
11    why you lose most of your law cases that you file
12    in the first place.  Let's not toy with it.  The
13    only person you are fooling is yourself.  You have
14    no integrity whatsoever when it comes to the
15    judicial system to begin with.
16          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
17          A.     Only to Scientology is it
18    nonresponsive, but you have a distorted reality
19    anyway, Mr. Bowles.  The only person obstructing
20    this is you.  You are obstructing this.  Because
21    you are refusing to recognize my rights as a
22    witness even though Judge Tassopoulos has ruled on
23    it and I have followed that.  If you want me to
24    refer to the specific exhibit, I will be happy to
25    do so, but you just choose, because it doesn't
2673
 1    serve your purpose, to ignore that part of it.
 2                 Well, I am saying if you want me to
 3    answer any further questions with regards to this
 4    declaration, you are going to have to get the
 5    judge to do it because frankly I think the judge
 6    will show a little bit more maturity in this
 7    matter than you are capable of, sir.
 8          Q.     You are going to answer no more
 9    questions with regard to the meeting; is that
10    right?
11          A.     I have asked and answered it, sir.
12    You asked me about it.  I have went in great
13    detail about this declaration.
14          Q.     I am not talking just about the
15    declaration.  I am talking about the December 21st
16    meeting.
17          A.     You have asked me that already,
18    Mr. Bowles.
19          Q.     You are not going to answer any more
20    questions about that meeting; is that right?
21          A.     No.  I don't think I have to.  If a
22    judge rules differently, so be it.  In fact, I
23    probably feel a lot more comfortable discussing it
24    in front of a judge.
25          Q.     Who is Eric Moran?
2674
 1          A.     Mr. Bowles.  Will you never stop
 2    playing games?
 3          Q.     Just answer the question.  Who is
 4    Eric Moran?
 5          A.     I am answering the question.  Will
 6    you never stop playing games?
 7          Q.     Yes or no, do you know who Eric Moran
 8    is?
 9          A.     Eric Moran -- Mr. Bowles, you know as
10    well as I do that we are referring to Aron Mason
11    here and that you filed this entire document with
12    the court simply to play games with the facts that
13    I made a mistake mispronouncing Aron's name as
14    Eric Moran, and it was a running joke in your law
15    firm.  It was a running joke with you and it was a
16    running joke with Aron Mason and you knew it, Aron
17    knew it and I knew it.  Even Gwen Mayfield knew it
18    because we joked about it.
19                 For you to sit here looking real
20    serious in front of the camera and talking about a
21    very simple mispronunciation of someone's name,
22    really shows you have a hell of a lot of integrity
23    to speak of which is (inaudible sound).
24          Q.     Nice act.
25          A.     I don't have to act, sir.  You have
2675
 1    really shown what lack of integrity you have
 2    here.
 3          Q.     So you filed a court document
 4    accusing people of plotting a murder and it's just
 5    easy for you to say Eric Moran?  That's your
 6    answer; is that right?
 7          A.     No, Mr.  -- Tim, come on now.  Why
 8    the game?  Why the games, Tim?  Why don't we get
 9    serious here.  Why can't you be serious with
10    this?  You know who I am referring to.  And there
11    is no point of going on.  You are simply taking
12    something very minute and making a powder keg out
13    of it.  It makes no sense at all.
14                 Are you also going to get onto me for
15    the fact when I first met you and knew you, I
16    spelled your name B O L E S?  Are you going to
17    drag me through the mud because I misspelled your
18    name?  Are you going to file a declaration against
19    me because I misspelled your name?  I mean, that's
20    what you are talking about here.
21                 Are you enjoying yourself?  You must
22    be, I think you should get a close-up on this
23    man's face right now because you are really
24    getting a lot of kicks out of this, aren't you.
25          Q.     You can accuse Eric Moran -- you can
2676
 1    accuse Aron Mason of plotting a murder and just
 2    misplace his name; is that your testimony?
 3          A.     Who is Eric Mason.
 4          Q.     Aron Mason.
 5          A.     You said Eric Mason.
 6          Q.     I will rephrase the question.  You
 7    can just lightly take Aron Mason and misrepresent
 8    his name in a court document when you are accusing
 9    him of plotting a murder; is that right?
10          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
11          THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I mean, you are talking
12    about speculation here.  Mr. Bowles, you know who
13    I am talking about.  Let's move on.  I mean, your
14    Exhibit-No. 20 is a real piece of work.  How long
15    did it take --
16          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
17          THE WITNESS:  How long did it take you to
18    work on this?
19          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
20          THE WITNESS:  I didn't say anything.  What
21    did you strike as nonresponsive?  You are losing
22    it.
23    BY MR. BOWLES:
24          Q.     It's a false statement when you said
25    Eric Moran was involved in that meeting, isn't
2677
 1    it?
 2          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
 3          Q.     So you are going to refuse to answer
 4    that question, aren't you?
 5          A.     You have already asked it, sir.  You
 6    have been playing games with that name for at
 7    least ten minutes now.
 8          Q.     Are you going to refuse to answer the
 9    question?  Is that right?
10          A.     Mr. Bowles, I have answered the
11    question.
12          Q.     Exhibit-67.  Jim Boland declaration.
13    Mr. Scarff --
14          A.     Yes, Tim.
15          Q.     -- is this thing entirely true, sir?
16          A.     This declaration here?
17          Q.     Yes.
18          A.     Oh, absolutely not.  This specific
19    exhibit, absolutely not.  This was written, as you
20    well know, Mr. Bowles, during the time that I was
21    in Scientology working with the Office of Special
22    Affairs.  And I can honestly say now that I would
23    ask anybody to suspect anything that I said to be
24    the truth when I was involved in Scientology,
25    because Scientology is built on lies.  You teach
2678
 1    people how to lie.  You taught me how to lie and I
 2    lied very well for your purpose.
 3                 And this little piece of information
 4    here, which is in the exhibit, was drawn up during
 5    the time that I was in Scientology.  So I will be
 6    honest and say this has no integrity whatsoever.
 7    There are certainly some facts in here but the
 8    tone of it, which is indictive of the Cult
 9    Awareness Network, was a piece of work created for
10    the benefit of the Church of Scientology and for
11    the benefit of Bowles & Moxon.
12                 So I don't know why you are asking me
13    about it.  You know why it was written.  You know
14    when it was written.  And you should be asking
15    your co-associates why this was drawn up.
16          Q.     Okay.  Let's take a look at your
17    Page 143 to 147.  You will see the context of
18    this, Mr. Scarff.  This is in your deposition,
19    direct examination.  Context of this is we are
20    talking about Exhibit-67.  I want you to read for
21    us Lines 8 through 14.
22          A.     You mean Paragraph 8.
23          Q.     No, Page 147, Lines 8 through 14.
24                 Counsel, here is the context of it so
25    you can see what it is.
2679
 1          THE WITNESS:  Sure.  Thanks
 2    BY MR. BOWLES:
 3          Q.     When I say "context," I gave you the
 4    earlier pages from 143 on.
 5          A.    "Q.  Are the contents of
 6          this declaration true and
 7          correct?
 8                 "A.  As I recall the --
 9          yes, as I recall, that's
10          correct.  Later I spoke with
11          Mr. Boland because Mr. Boland
12          himself prepared a declaration
13          and there were just a few
14          incidents that we disagree on
15          about what happened."
16          Q.     Thank you.  Mr. Scarff, will you pass
17    me those pages as well, please.
18          A.     Oh.  Sorry.
19          Q.     So, which is it, Mr. Scarff?  Is it
20    true and correct or is it not?
21          A.     Well, it's disputable, Mr. Bowles,
22    because as the testimony I read just asserted, I
23    said, as I recall what happened, but Mr. Bowles
24    himself has disputed some of the things that I
25    have said.
2680
 1          Q.     Mr. Bowles?
 2          A.     Mr. Boland has disputed some of the
 3    things.  And I believe in this exhibit is a copy
 4    of his statement where he refutes some of the
 5    things I said.  Yes, in fact, it's Exhibit-68,
 6    which refutes certain things that I said in
 7    Exhibit-67.  So whether that's true and correct is
 8    speculative.  I have said it.  I believe them to
 9    be true at the time.  Jim Boland is saying some of
10    the facts are different then as he remembered it.
11    So you are going to have to either believe me or
12    believe Jim Boland.  It's your decision, sir.
13          Q.     Which is it, Mr. Scarff?  Is it true
14    what you just said, that the contents are true and
15    correct except for the few things that Mr. Boland
16    corrected, or is it true what you said just a few
17    minutes ago that the entire document is false?
18          A.     I didn't say the entire document was
19    false, sir.  I never said the entire document was
20    false.  I said that when I wrote this that I was
21    in the Church of Scientology.  My mind-set at that
22    time, sir, was to destroy the Cult Awareness
23    Network and destroy the individuals with it.  I
24    was part and party to your whole scheme to get rid
25    of the Cult Awareness Network.
2681
 1                 I have never denied on film, sir,
 2    that it was my desire or my attempt during the
 3    time that I was involved in Scientology to destroy
 4    the Cult Awareness Network.  I wanted to destroy
 5    them just as much as you did, sir.  I wanted to
 6    destroy Cynthia Kisser and put her out of
 7    existence just as much as you did, Tim.  I hated
 8    them.  And I hated her as much as you did.
 9                 Unfortunately, I learned some truths
10    when I left Scientology which are a lot different
11    than the distorted reality I lived in when I was
12    in your church.
13          Q.     Who do you hate now, Mr. Scarff?
14          A.     I don't hate anybody.  In fact, I
15    don't even hate you.  You have shown me over these
16    last few weeks what you are doing and I feel sorry
17    for you.  I think this is going to haunt you.
18          Q.     Are you done?
19          A.     No.  I am just saying in the long run
20    this is going to haunt you.  And that one day and
21    it's my hope one day that you will be out of
22    Scientology, sir, and you will be on this side of
23    the table giving testimony.  And I think that's
24    going to happen some time soon.  Anyway, that's my
25    opinion.
2682
 1                 What I am saying, sir, is that when I
 2    created this, I was a Scientologist.  I was in the
 3    Church of Scientology.  I had the mind-set to get
 4    at the Cult Awareness Network.  So I am saying you
 5    can judge this however you wish.  There are people
 6    within the Church of Scientology that would look
 7    at this and say, yes, it is absolutely true, it's
 8    absolutely correct.  It sounds reasonable.
 9                 There are people in the Cult
10    Awareness Network that would look at that and say
11    it's not correct.  It's out of -- it's distorted.
12          Q.     What's your testimony now, is it true
13    or is it false?
14          A.     I am going to say only, Mr. Bowles,
15    that I wrote this, and I am not going to play this
16    little black and white game with you that you want
17    to play.  It is true based upon my recollections,
18    but there are pieces in this, and I haven't read
19    it, but I think there are pieces in this that kind
20    of incriminates the Cult Awareness Network because
21    I have written a lot of stuff against the Cult
22    Awareness Network at the directives of Scientology
23    officials which is not true.  And I would have to
24    read this paragraph by paragraph before, I could
25    tell you what's true and not true about it.
2683
 1          Q.     When you testified before when you
 2    said it was true and correct, you hadn't read it
 3    yet paragraph by paragraph?
 4          A.     Mr. Bowles, you are playing games
 5    again.
 6          Q.     Yes or no?  Did you read it paragraph
 7    by paragraph before you told Mr. Berry on direct
 8    examination that it was true and correct?
 9          A.     Mr. Bowles, I want to read certain
10    parts of it before I give you an answer, sir.
11          Q.     I guess the film will show whether
12    you read it or not, won't it?
13          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
14          THE WITNESS:  And you could have been here
15    to see me doing it but you were toying around with
16    the system and refusing not to show up.
17          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
18          THE WITNESS:  Nonresponsive but very true.
19    BY MR. BOWLES:
20          Q.     Are you finding some false statements
21    in there, Mr. Scarff?
22          A.     Why don't you play with your
23    paralegal over here.  I am busy.
24          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
25          THE WITNESS:  Unresponsive but true.
2684
 1    BY MR. BOWLES:
 2          Q.     What did you just read there,
 3    Mr. Scarff?
 4          A.     Paragraph 10 states,
 5                 "Later Anne would
 6          confront the Boland parents with
 7          our fee schedules.  Anne, $100 a
 8          day plus expenses; Vince, $200 a
 9          day plus expenses; Ray, $100 a
10          day plus expenses; Gary, $250 a
11          day plus expenses, and Bob
12          Brandeberry, $400 a day plus
13          expenses.  This alarmed
14          Mr. Boland who asked to speak
15          with me outside privately."
16                 That's not correct.  I know that Anne
17    confronted the Bolands regarding payment, but
18    again, I don't know how much everyone else
19    charged.  And my fee was certainly not $250 a day
20    plus expenses.
21          Q.     I think you have answered my question
22    adequately.
23          A.     No, the body of it is correct.  The
24    body of it is true.  Since you have chosen not to
25    let me review it, I can't give you a definite
2685
 1    answer.
 2          Q.     Mr. Scarff --
 3          A.     And I think I have already corrected
 4    Page 8, Paragraph 1 regarding the parish.
 5          MR. BOWLES:  Okay.
 6          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
 7    The time is 2:38 P.M.
 8                 (Recess taken.)
 9          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We are back on the record.
10    The time is 3:03 P.M.
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     Mr. Scarff, let me ask you a question
13    about some of your truthful testimony before
14    Mr. Berry.
15          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
16    BY MR. BOWLES:
17          Q.     Your testimony to Mr. Berry was
18    truthful, wasn't it?
19          A.     Uh-huh.  Yes.
20          Q.     Is that a "yes"?
21          A.     I just gave it to her.
22          Q.     Okay, good.  I would like you to
23    read, and this is in relation to -- do you want to
24    see the context, Exhibit-9, walking through these
25    paragraph numbers, if you want to see Exhibit-9 to
2686
 1    start with, that might be a first place to start.
 2    Take a look at Paragraph 102 to get you oriented.
 3    Are you there?
 4          A.     Uh-huh.
 5          MR. BOWLES:  Okay.  Counsel, I am going to
 6    hand you for the witness Page 998 of this
 7    transcript.
 8          Q.     Mr. Scarff, if you would please read
 9    from Line 1 to Line 6.
10          A.     "102, 102 is true with
11          the exception of the marijuana
12          jars.  They were very small jars
13          that had buds, marijuana buds in
14          them, whereas Eugene would like
15          you to believe there are these
16          three gigantic bottles that had
17          all these stalks in them.  He
18          really inflated that."
19          Q.     Okay.  Thank you.  So that's correct
20    testimony?
21          A.     Yes, it is.
22          Q.     There aren't any typos in that?
23          A.     No.
24          Q.     And your testimony before Mr. Leipold
25    on September 11th, 1992 was truthful; is that
2687
 1    right?
 2          A.     Yes, it was.
 3          Q.     Exhibit-3, if you have that.  I think
 4    you might have that over there.  If you could
 5    please turn to Page 213 of Exhibit-3.  If you want
 6    to go back to satisfy yourself, you are talking
 7    here about the declaration as to Ford Greene.
 8          A.     Okay.
 9          Q.     209, the question at Line 8 and
10    beyond will show you that.
11          A.     209 -- 8.
12          Q.     Mr. Leipold is asking you about this
13    Greene declaration.
14          A.     Yes.
15          Q.     So if you would please read at Page
16    213 starting at Line 23.
17          A.     "Greene frequently smoked
18          marijuana in my presence.  That
19          is true.  It is true in his
20          apartment he's got three huge
21          jars and that they're full of
22          marijuana stalks."
23          Q.     That's fine.  So which is true, what
24    you told Mr. Leipold on September 11th, 1992 or
25    what you told Mr. Berry in the first part of this
2688
 1    deposition?
 2          A.     Well, I think both of them are true.
 3          Q.     Were they large jars or small jars?
 4          A.     Let me see the testimony that I have
 5    attested to already.
 6          Q.     Page 998.
 7          A.     They were Mason jars.  That's what I
 8    remember them to be.  But they weren't large
 9    canisters.  In Eugene Ingram's declaration it says
10    three large Mason-style canisters in his office.
11    Each was probably two or three gallons in size.  I
12    have never seen a Mason jar that you use to pack
13    preservatives or fruit or any stuff like that
14    that's two to three gallons in size.  Have you?
15          Q.     Is that your testimony?
16          A.     That's my testimony.  I am asking
17    have you ever seen, because I have never seen, a
18    Mason jar that is two to three gallons in
19    capacity?  But I remember --
20          Q.     Were these very small jars or were
21    they very large jars?
22          A.     You know, I don't recall,
23    Mr. Bowles.  I remember specifically there were
24    three jars that had marijuana in them.
25          Q.     Now you don't recall?
2689
 1          A.     Mr. Bowles.
 2          Q.     Are you certain -- how big were they,
 3    Mr. Scarff?
 4          A.     They were Mason jars, Mr.  --
 5          Q.     Why don't you just show us with your
 6    hands how big they were.
 7          A.     I remember them to be this size.  And
 8    that's the size of Mason jars.  That's what you
 9    put fruit and stuff into.  That's what it was in.
10    It was Mason jars.
11          Q.     Would you call those huge or very
12    small?
13          A.     First of all, a Mason jar is usually
14    about this size.  This Mason jar was about this
15    size.  To me that's a little bigger than a small
16    Mason jar.
17          Q.     So is that huge or very small?
18          A.     Good question.  I would say
19    considering the usual size of a Mason jar, it
20    would probably be bigger, maybe not as huge but
21    bigger.
22          Q.     It was certainly not very small, are
23    they?
24          A.     Huh?  No.  Are you going to ask me
25    whether it was two or three?  I mean, that's
2690
 1    pretty irrelevant but the fact is three basic jars
 2    existed.
 3          Q.     We have got your testimony now.
 4          A.     Okay.  Bugs Bunny rides again.
 5          Q.     Do you think it's funny when you told
 6    inconsistencies under oath?
 7          A.     No.  I think it's funny that you take
 8    very small things out of context and blow them up
 9    and mushroom them --
10          Q.     It's not black or white, is it,
11    Mr. Scarff?
12          A.     It's black and white to you as a
13    Scientologist.
14          Q.     I am asking you.
15          A.     But everyone else in the world looks
16    at you and laughs because you make such absolute
17    ridiculous things in court that have no bearing on
18    anybody other than to harass and intimidate them.
19    Why is it that most of the cases --
20          Q.     Are you certain about your testimony
21    or not?
22          A.     Huh?  I am saying to the best of my
23    recollection.  If the tables were turned, I doubt
24    that you could remember things that happened many
25    years ago.
2691
 1          Q.     It's your deposition, Mr. Scarff.
 2          A.     Oh.
 3          Q.     We are trying to nail you down to
 4    what your true story is.
 5          A.     Don't be surprised if you don't get
 6    hit with a subpoena pretty soon for a deposition.
 7          Q.     Is that a threat?
 8          A.     I want to see what happens with you.
 9    No.  I want to see your veracity and your
10    honesty.  I want to see you melt like a hot piece
11    of butter because I know you couldn't stand up
12    under it.  That's one --
13          Q.     When you get angry, Mr. Scarff, you
14    lie, don't you?
15          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
16    BY MR. BOWLES:
17          Q.     When you are angry, you lie, don't
18    you?
19          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
20          THE WITNESS:  Mr. Bowles, when I was angry
21    as a Scientologist, I lied right and left all the
22    time for Scientology.  And I lied for you,
23    Mr. Bowles, in the complaint that you drafted up
24    and that you were going to file in the courts on
25    my behalf.  I lied like crazy and you, sir, lied
2692
 1    like crazy.  So don't sit here with a halo on your
 2    head.  You have no integrity whatsoever to speak
 3    of.
 4    BY MR. BOWLES:
 5          Q.     Did you ever lie when you were angry
 6    before Scientology, Mr. Scarff?
 7          A.     Excuse me?  When I was angry, I don't
 8    recall.  I don't think so.
 9          Q.     Let's take a look at it.
10          A.     Okay.
11          Q.     Exhibit-29.
12          A.     Yes.
13          Q.     Did you lie in this letter to
14    Reverand Kerns?
15          A.     There are some things in here that
16    are inaccurate.  There are some things that are
17    very accurate.
18          Q.     You were upset at the time, weren't
19    you, Mr. Scarff?
20          A.     I was upset that I had been kicked
21    out of the seminary.  I wasn't angry at any
22    specific person, no.
23          Q.     It's your testimony when you are
24    angry and upset, you lash out, isn't it?
25          A.     No, sir, it's not my testimony to
2693
 1    that.  It was my testimony then in May of 1991
 2    that's exactly what I did.  And it's quite
 3    surprising that even given this that Scientology
 4    welcomed me back and accepted me as an honorable
 5    member of the church again even after this.  So
 6    it's real surprising to me that you would sit here
 7    and blast me for being angry and lying in May of
 8    1991, when I had association with church officials
 9    even after that and they had no problem with that
10    whatsoever.
11          Q.     You have had a life-long problem with
12    lying under stress, haven't you?
13          A.     And you have had a life-long problem
14    with criminality.
15          Q.     Just answer my questions, Mr. Scarff,
16    yes or no?
17          A.     No, I don't have to answer based upon
18    what you want, Mr. Bowles.  I am here to tell the
19    truth.
20          Q.     What's your testimony?
21          A.     You have a life-long history of lying
22    yourself, so what's the difference?
23          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
24                 You're the witness, Mr. Scarff.  You
25    have had a life-long practice of lying when you
2694
 1    are under stress, haven't you?
 2          A.     No.
 3          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
 4    BY MR. BOWLES:
 5          Q.     Let's take a look at that,
 6    Mr. Scarff.
 7          A.     Can't deal with the heat, can you,
 8    Tim.
 9          Q.     Just answer my questions, we will get
10    through this.
11          A.     Oh, I am having a good ol' time,
12    Mr. Bowles.  I want the truth to come out.  I am
13    not going to rush this whatsoever because the more
14    that you do this, the more you just trip yourself
15    up, sir.  The world looks at it in anticipation
16    what Scientology will do next.
17          Q.     Page 1267 of the transcript.
18    Mr. Scarff, why don't you read from Line 18 of
19    that page and take it through to Line 18 of the
20    following page.  Thank you.
21          A.     I would like to see the preface pages
22    to this, please.
23          Q.     I think it will speak for itself.
24          A.     I would like to see the preface pages
25    to this, please.
2695
 1          Q.     Why don't you read this and see if
 2    you need any preface pages.
 3          A.     I have just made a request.  I am not
 4    going to read it until I see the preface pages.
 5          Q.     That is the preface page, Mr. Scarff.
 6    Go to Line 25 now --
 7          A.     I would like to see 1260 to 1266,
 8    please so I know what I am reading.
 9          Q.     You are reading about Exhibit-29,
10    sir.
11          A.     Sir, I don't trust you worth shit so
12    I want to see 1260 to 1266, please.  Hand it down,
13    please.
14          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
15          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you, Counsel.
16          THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
17    BY MR. BOWLES:
18          Q.     Mr. Scarff, Line 18 of the page you
19    are now looking at to Line 18 of the following
20    page, sir.  Read it out loud.  Please.
21          A.     I am not finished reading this.
22                 "Q.  Now, where in this
23          letter, Exhibit-29, is the next
24          reference to the Church of
25          Scientology?
2696
 1                 "A.  Well, 7 refers to --
 2          I read 'church' at the top line,
 3          but again until it gets down to
 4          the last four sentences, I
 5          cannot read it.  It's not
 6          legible.  But I do refer to the
 7          occasion where -- wait a
 8          second -- no.  No.  At least
 9          the bottom portion of the
10          paragraph is not true.  Because
11          I talk about being taken to a
12          bridge in Washington Park and
13          being tied up and held upside
14          down by the bridge" -- "by the
15          bridge and threatened until I
16          confessed my intentions.
17                 "Q.  And was that true?
18                 "A.  No.
19                 "Q.  Was there a reason
20          it was written there?
21                 "A.  I was angry.  I was
22          upset.  Certainly the places in
23          this had relevance to me because
24          the places that I referred to,
25          Washington Park, Vista Bridge,
2697
 1          suicide, were things that I had
 2          considered on at least two
 3          occasions.  And it had some
 4          relevancy to my experience at
 5          the time.  But, no, this was a
 6          comment that I created.  And the
 7          purpose was to get church
 8          officials angry and I think I
 9          succeeded in doing that."
10          Q.     Is that a true transcription,
11    Mr. Scarff?
12          A.     Yes, it is.
13          Q.     Is that true testimony, Mr. Scarff?
14          A.     Yes, Tim, it is.
15                 Mr. Calhoun.
16          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you.  I'm sorry.
17          THE WITNESS:  This goes with it.
18          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you.
19    BY MR. BOWLES:
20          Q.     So you now are going to deny that you
21    lie when you get angry?
22          A.     No.  I don't lie.  I lied when I got
23    angry then.  But, you know, something, Mr. Bowles,
24    I had the benefit and it's the first time I had
25    ever done it, when I left Scientology, I sought
2698
 1    therapy and it was intensive.  And I had the
 2    benefit of intensive therapy for months, and it's
 3    the very first gift that I ever gave myself.  And
 4    I can honestly say after months of therapy with a
 5    psychotherapist, God, am I so glad that I turned
 6    my back on Scientology and I left it.  Because I
 7    am no longer a part of this insidious, evil,
 8    criminal organization that you belong to.
 9          Q.     Who was your therapist?
10          A.     And thank, God.  Diane Benscoter is
11    my therapist.
12          Q.     Are you claiming a privilege?
13          A.     Yes.
14          Q.     So you are not going to tell me
15    anything about the content of those sessions with
16    Diane Benscoter; is that right?
17          A.     You know as well as I do, it's none
18    of your damn business and you are not going to get
19    a peep out of me.
20          Q.     Is she a licensed psychotherapist?
21          A.     Check it out yourself.
22          Q.     Which state is she licensed in?
23          A.     Oregon.
24          Q.     Is she a deprogrammer?
25          A.     Mr. Bowles, ask her because I don't
2699
 1    know.  If she was, I wouldn't know it.  No, she
 2    has to be a psychotherapist which is actually
 3    accredited which is something your therapists and
 4    your counselors are not, although they purport to
 5    be.  And for the first time in my life I can
 6    actually say I am free of this criminal entity in
 7    which you are so much a part of and you work for.
 8          Q.     When did you get these sessions?
 9          A.     None of your damn business.  You take
10    it up with someone else.
11          Q.     When was the first session you had?
12          A.     Asked and answered.
13          Q.     When was the last session you had?
14          A.     It's none of your business.  It's
15    private.  It's personal.
16          Q.     You're refusing to answer any
17    questions in this area; is that right?
18          A.     Yes, I am.  That's personal
19    information.  That's privacy.  Judge Tassopoulos
20    has granted me the right to provide that whether
21    it was --
22          Q.     She has granted you the right to
23    assert it.
24          A.     I have asserted it, sir.  You can't
25    seem to get it through your thick head that I have
2700
 1    asserted it, but I have asserted it.  So you are
 2    going to have to abide by the judge's ruling.
 3          Q.     And you will abide by the court's
 4    ruling?
 5          A.     If the court orders me to do it, I
 6    will certainly take it up on those grounds, yes.
 7          Q.     Have you ever claimed that Diane
 8    Benscoter is a deprogrammer?
 9          A.     That's none of your business, sir.
10    Any comment --
11          Q.     Why is that --
12          A.     Because any conversations between me
13    relating to my therapist in a therapist-client
14    privilege is privileged information.  Anything
15    regarding my therapist I consider personal and
16    privileged information.  And I think the court
17    will back me up on that.  Thank God the judge in
18    this case is not a Scientologist.  Praise God.
19    But they are going to back me up on this.  So play
20    your games with someone else, sir.
21          Q.     Have you ever testified under oath
22    that Diane Benscoter is a deprogrammer?
23          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
24          Q.     Are you refusing to answer that
25    question?
2701
 1          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
 2          Q.     So yes or no, are you refusing?
 3          A.     Asked and answered.
 4          Q.     So did you give false information to
 5    Mr. Ingram that you told him to leave in the
 6    declaration on Exhibit-9?
 7          A.     I'm sorry, I didn't understand your
 8    question.
 9          Q.     Did you give false information to
10    Mr. Ingram which he then put into Exhibit-9?
11          A.     No.  Absolutely not.  I told him
12    exactly what happened.  How he drafted and
13    paraphrased it was his business.
14          Q.     Did you ever see false information in
15    Exhibit-13 which you said "just leave in there"?
16          A.     I didn't understand what you just
17    said.
18          Q.     Exhibit-13, remember that one?
19          A.     I have it in front of me now.
20          Q.     Okay.  That's the one in Oklahoma
21    City; right?
22          A.     Right.  This is the one you said is
23    simply a copy word for word from Exhibit-9 with
24    the exception to the specific events involving
25    Eddy Fallon.
2702
 1          Q.     Well, we are asking you for your
 2    testimony.
 3          A.     That's what you told me.  That's in
 4    the record, sir.  You have stated this in the
 5    record.
 6          Q.     How do you recognize it, sir?
 7          A.     Well, after we went through this in
 8    quite depth, both you and Mr. Bowles, I realize
 9    that there -- the paragraphs in Exhibit-13 are
10    parallel to the paragraphs in Exhibit-9 with the
11    exception to the comments about Eddy Fallon and
12    then there was one other thing regarding hours.
13    Seven to 12 hours of time it took them to get him
14    to Bellevue.  That's what I remember as being the
15    similarities and the differences in these two
16    declarations.
17          Q.     When you read that declaration and
18    prior to signing it, did you notice anything that
19    was untrue in that?
20          A.     In this declaration?
21          Q.     Exhibit-13, yes, sir.
22          A.     Yes.  The only thing -- well, again,
23    as you have said on record, Mr. Bowles, this
24    deposition is simply a copy of Exhibit-9, the
25    other declaration, or taken by Eugene Ingram.  And
2703
 1    that it's word for word.  So, of course, if there
 2    are lies and mistruths in Exhibit-9, there are
 3    certainly going to be lies and mistruths in
 4    Exhibit-13.
 5          Q.     Listen to my question.  I think you
 6    have already testified that you didn't have a
 7    chance to read Exhibit-9 very thoroughly.
 8          A.     Not 9, no.  But 13 --
 9          Q.     Exhibit-13 you did, didn't you?
10          A.     Yes, I did, and I have seen
11    Exhibit-9, because as I have also said before on
12    record, and I believe I have said it at least
13    twice, is that following the time that I signed
14    this before Eugene Ingram flew back to Los Angeles
15    he provided me copies me of all this stuff.
16          Q.     Exhibit-13, when you read through it
17    prior to signing it, did you notice anything that
18    was false in that declaration?
19          A.     Yes, I did.  I know --
20          Q.     Did you give instructions,
21    Mr. Scarff, to leave the false statements in?
22          A.     No.  I didn't -- no.
23          Q.     Did you say to the people that were
24    present to leave false statements in this
25    declaration?
2704
 1          A.     I'm sorry.  Say that again.
 2          MR. BOWLES:  Can you read it back.
 3                 (Record read.)
 4          THE WITNESS:  No, I didn't.  Because I was
 5    at the mind-set of that time being that I was in
 6    Oklahoma and I was talking out against CAN that I
 7    really put my trust at that point into Scientology
 8    to help me out.  I surrendered to Scientology.
 9    And the fact that Eugene Ingram had come to
10    Portland and that we had talked on numerous
11    occasions and had met, I considered at that time
12    Eugene Ingram to be a friend.  Despite everything
13    that had happened, despite the duress, despite the
14    threats, I really thought maybe now I have got a
15    chance to make it in this world and be happy.  And
16    I put my trust into Eugene Ingram.
17                 And, in fact, that's why in Oklahoma
18    I sat down with David Butterworth and I asked him
19    what conditions I had to do in order to be
20    accepted.  And he said I was doing them.
21                 No, my mind-set at the time, sir, is
22    that I wanted to be pleasing in the sight of
23    Eugene Ingram and David Butterworth.  I looked up
24    at that time to David Butterworth.  And I knew a
25    lot of this information was untrue, but I was
2705
 1    prepared to expose it anyway because I wanted to
 2    be part of the group.
 3          Q.     Did you say to leave it in?
 4          A.     No.  I didn't say anything to leave
 5    it in.  Who am I to tell a private investigator
 6    working for you, Mr. Bowles, your private
 7    investigator, Mr. Bowles, we are talking about
 8    here, not someone in your law firm, but we are
 9    talking about your employee, Mr. Bowles, who am I
10    to tell you that you can't do this?  This is
11    something you pay him to do on a continual basis.
12    I don't have any rights to tell Mr. Bowles, the
13    attorney sitting here next to me, that he doesn't
14    have the right to produce this garbage.  Who am I
15    to say you can't do this, sir?
16          Q.     So you didn't say to leave anything
17    in there that's false; is that right?
18          A.     No.
19          Q.     Okay.  Thank you.
20                 Let's take a look at Exhibit-3 once
21    more.
22          A.     Okay.
23          Q.     Your truthful statement to
24    Mr. Leipold.  And let's go to Page 123.
25          A.     Okay.
2706
 1          Q.     Please read from Line 7 to Line 12.
 2          A.     Line 7.
 3                 "A.  When I was in
 4          Oklahoma City there were things
 5          in my declaration that I was
 6          disturbed about because they
 7          were not an honest
 8          representation.  And this may
 9          sound crazy.  There's a lot of
10          things in that declaration which
11          were untrue that I supported.  I
12          said leave it in the
13          declaration."
14                 Well, I guess I did say it.
15          Q.     Okay.  So it's not true that you
16    didn't say it; is that right?
17          A.     Well, if I have already attested in a
18    declaration that I said it, and I don't remember
19    it, I am not going to sit here and say I didn't
20    say it.  I didn't remember until you refreshed my
21    memory.  Thank you.  You refreshed my memory.
22          Q.     So this is true, you did say to leave
23    it in?
24          A.     Well, I have already attested to it.
25    And if this is something that's in the declaration
2707
 1    and I signed it, yes, I said it.
 2          Q.     Okay.
 3          A.     Wow.
 4          Q.     So anything you have said in this
 5    declaration, Exhibit-3, that you have attested to
 6    is true; is that right?
 7          A.     That I haven't made corrections on,
 8    yes.
 9          Q.     Thank you.
10                 Did you tell things to Mr. Ingram
11    that were not true?
12          A.     No.
13          Q.     In preparing these declarations?
14          A.     No.  There are things that I had no
15    information about which Mr. Ingram later
16    investigated and sent individuals from the Church
17    of Scientology out to investigate and found to be
18    the case.  There were things that I suspected
19    might be true but I wasn't sure.  And he being the
20    private investigator for your law firm was the
21    person in charge of finding out whether they were
22    true or not.
23          Q.     All right.  Go to Page 224 of
24    Exhibit-3, please.
25          A.     Okay.
2708
 1          Q.     I would like you to read from Line 24
 2    of that page to Line 7 of the next page, 225.
 3          A.     Okay.
 4                 "Q.  Did you tell the
 5          things that are not true in this
 6          declaration to Eugene Ingram?
 7                 "A.  Yes, I did and I
 8          told Eugene Ingram that even
 9          during the time that I was doing
10          the deprogramming that Mary
11          Alice Chrnalogar was talking to
12          someone on the telephone
13          outside, on the outside, and
14          that I even made a phone call
15          to -- and again I don't remember
16          her name -- I called this person
17          at Unbound just to tell her what
18          was happening."
19          Q.     Thank you.  So which is it,
20    Mr. Scarff, did you tell him things that were
21    untrue or not?
22          A.     I would like to see the correction
23    page to this, please.  There is a correction
24    page.  Let me see if I caught that.
25          Q.     Page 224 to 225.  Handing the witness
2709
 1    the exhibit that has the corrections on it.  I
 2    think it's 191, although I may be misspeaking.
 3          MR. CALHOUN:  195.
 4          MR. BOWLES:  195, thank you, Counsel.
 5          THE WITNESS:  Well, I missed it evidently in
 6    the corrections because that should say no, I did
 7    not.
 8    BY MR. BOWLES:
 9          Q.     That's what it should say?  Is that
10    what you said to Mr. Leipold, "No, I did not"?
11          A.     Well, looking at the paragraph, if
12    anyone was to read this paragraph, it doesn't make
13    sense that yes, I would tell him something then
14    tell him something that was not true about Mary
15    Alice Chrnalogar something that never even
16    happened.  I don't recall.  I don't recall.  I
17    just --
18          Q.     What don't you recall?
19          A.     I don't recall my specific
20    conversation with him.
21          Q.     With who?
22          A.     Eugene Ingram.
23          Q.     But you did on September 11th, didn't
24    you?
25          A.     Mr. Bowles, lower your voice here.  I
2710
 1    am not --
 2          Q.     You testified on that day?
 3          A.     I am not your dog, Mr. Bowles.  Lower
 4    your voice and show some professional respect
 5    here, please.
 6          Q.     Cross-examination, Mr. Scarff.
 7          A.     Cross-examination does not entitle
 8    you to -- Rule 30(d) prohibits the cross-examining
 9    attorney from harassing, intimidating and annoying
10    the witness which you have done so in great
11    detail.
12          Q.     You can go get an order, Mr. Scarff?
13          A.     Mr. Bowles, if I got an order, you
14    would suffer even more than you already have.  So
15    why don't you behave and show some respect as an
16    adult.
17          Q.     On September 11th, Mr. Scarff, you
18    did recall what you said to Mr. Ingram, didn't
19    you?
20          A.     That's your characterization, sir.  I
21    mean, I don't get paid to lie like Eugene Ingram
22    does.
23          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
24          A.     I don't get paid $700,000 a year to
25    lie for Bowles & Moxon.
2711
 1          Q.     Mr. Scarff, we have had enough of
 2    your extraneous comments.
 3          A.     I don't have the history that Eugene
 4    Ingram has for misrepresenting himself and lying.
 5    I have certainly never shot myself on duty as a
 6    police officer then told the world and filed a
 7    complaint that someone had shot me.  I mean, we
 8    are dealing with someone here that has a full and
 9    accurate record of misrepresentation and lies
10    during the time that not only he was a police
11    officer but during the time that he worked for
12    you.  That's established well on record.  And I
13    think by the time this lawsuit comes to course it
14    will be well known.
15          Q.     Is that your answer?
16          A.     And you are going to be looking for
17    another employee.
18          Q.     Is that your answer?
19          A.     Yes, that is my very accurate and
20    truthful answer, sir.
21          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
22          A.     Nonresponsive but very true.
23                 Having fun here?
24          MR. LONG:  Uh-huh.
25          THE WITNESS:  Thought so.  Even have more
2712
 1    fun if you left Scientology.
 2          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
 3    Mr. Scarff --
 4          THE WITNESS:  I wasn't talking to you,
 5    Mr. Bowles.  I am talking to your paralegal.
 6    Can't you mind your own business?
 7    BY MR. BOWLES:
 8          Q.     Let's take a look at your testimony
 9    at Page 315 of this deposition.
10          THE WITNESS:  Mr. Calhoun, give that back.
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     I would like you to read from Line 15
13    to Line 22.  First I will withdraw that question.
14                 Mr. Scarff, when did you find out
15    under penalty of perjury -- I'm sorry.  When did
16    you find out that signing declarations, Exhibits-9
17    through 13, under penalty of perjury could be used
18    against you?
19          A.     I didn't understand your question,
20    Mr. Bowles.  Rephrase it, please.
21          Q.     At some point after you signed
22    Exhibits-9 through 13, did you find out that
23    signing something under penalty of perjury could
24    be used against you?
25          A.     Yes.  I found it out after I left the
2713
 1    Church of Scientology and spoke with a competent
 2    attorney.
 3          Q.     Who did you speak with?
 4          A.     Douglas Green.  My personal injury
 5    attorney.
 6          Q.     When was that?
 7          A.     Approximately early September of
 8    1992.  And it was prior to my meeting with Dan
 9    Leipold in which Dan Leipold said that he wanted
10    to get a declaration on me and I told him that it
11    wasn't worth his time to do so because he would
12    simply do something probably reflective of what
13    Eugene Ingram did.
14                 And he said, "No, the difference this
15    time, Mr. Scarff, is that you're going to be sworn
16    in under oath, under penalty of perjury by a court
17    officer.  And that's going to be the difference."
18    And it's something that Scientology under the
19    auspices of Bowles & Moxon does not do with any of
20    their witnesses.  And that truly shows the
21    difference there.
22                 And I took that up with my attorney,
23    Douglas Green.  And he told me that Mr. Leipold
24    was very correct.  You do not swear people in
25    before they give declarations for Scientology, Mr.
2714
 1    Bowles.  That is the difference.
 2          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 3          A.     That's where you commit the crimes,
 4    Mr. Bowles.
 5          Q.     Is that your answer, sir?
 6          A.     That's the very factual answer which
 7    can be and will be substantiated in court in this
 8    case, sir.
 9          MR. BOWLES:  Counsel, the page there.
10          THE WITNESS:  If you are still an attorney
11    at that time.
12    BY MR. BOWLES:
13          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
14          A.     It's nonresponsive but true.
15          Q.     How long were you on staff again at
16    the Church of Scientology Mission of Davis?
17          A.     About a week and a half.
18          Q.     So you weren't there for a month,
19    were you?
20          A.     I am saying to the best of my
21    recollection right now it was a week and a half.
22    I mean, I was passing out stuff for Scientology
23    even after that.
24          Q.     Well, how long were you on staff, a
25    week and a half or longer?
2715
 1          A.     Mr. Bowles, as I have said before, I
 2    took courses for a week and a half.  I got rid of
 3    that and I continued to pass out literature even
 4    after that, even more than a month after that.
 5          Q.     When did you blow your post?
 6          A.     I think you have to take that up with
 7    the people in Scientology as to when I actually
 8    blew my post, sir.
 9          Q.     What is your recollection as to when
10    you blew your post after you signed your staff
11    contract?
12          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; lacks foundation.
13    Calls for speculation.
14          THE WITNESS:  I remember to the best of my
15    recollection, sir, that a week and a half after I
16    signed that contract I no longer went into the
17    church and answered telephones because I was
18    falling behind in my studies.  But as a measure to
19    show some good faith there I continued to pass out
20    tickets to see L. Ron Hubbard movies and I passed
21    out literature inviting people to take a
22    personality test for weeks after that.  Now, if
23    you want to call that part of my position on
24    staff, so be it.
25    BY MR. BOWLES:
2716
 1          Q.     No.  I am asking you what you
 2    understood.
 3          A.     I answered the question.  You didn't
 4    hear me, I'm sorry.  She has got it on record.
 5    We'll leave it on record.  I said for about a week
 6    and a half I stopped going into the church and
 7    answering telephones because I was too involved in
 8    my studies.
 9          Q.     Is that when you blew your post?
10          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
11    speculation.  Lacks foundation.
12          THE WITNESS:  Again, I don't know -- you are
13    the official in Scientology.  You tell me what it
14    means to blow one's post, sir.
15    BY MR. BOWLES:
16          Q.     You have testified that you blew your
17    post.  What did you mean?
18          A.     It is my understanding, Mr. Bowles,
19    irrespective and irregardless of how the Church of
20    Scientology defines it, that when I stopped
21    answering the telephones there that I blew a
22    post.  That's my understanding.  I could be
23    incorrect.  I could be damn wrong about it.  But
24    that was my understanding.
25          Q.     All right.
2717
 1          A.     And that's what I have attested to.
 2          Q.     Very well.  So that was after about a
 3    week and a half; is that right?
 4          A.     That's a week and a half.  But part
 5    of my responsibilities that I was told at that
 6    time too was to pass out literature for
 7    Scientology, which I did well after a week and a
 8    half.  Is that part of my job?  I don't know.
 9    That's what I was told part of my job was.
10    Certainly no one came down on me the fact that I
11    blew my post when I told them that I was more
12    involved in my full time studies at that time.
13          Q.     Okay.  Did you attempt suicide in
14    early 1986?
15          A.     That's personal.  That's none of your
16    business.  I'm sorry, that's personal
17    information.  I don't think that's any of your
18    concern or any of your business.
19          Q.     Even if you have testified earlier
20    that you did, it's personal and you won't answer
21    questions?
22          A.     Mr. Bowles, since this deposition has
23    started, I have had the wonderful counsel of
24    attorney which is attorney-client privilege as you
25    are well aware who have advised me that anything
2718
 1    of a personal nature to that effect particularly
 2    with respect to the fact that earlier events in my
 3    life were the subject of confidential
 4    conversations with ministers of the Church of
 5    Scientology that I was told would never by
 6    revealed in any circumstance, that those are
 7    privileges that I have.
 8                 And the fact that you have chosen to
 9    reveal that information or even question me about
10    it breaches that confidentiality.  And so insofar
11    as my personal information is concerned, that's
12    none of your business.  I doubt that you would
13    give it if you were asked.  So --
14          Q.     The answer is no?
15          A.     The answer is absolutely no.
16          Q.     Okay.  I want you to read from the
17    transcript Pages 1186, Line 10 -- 1176, I'm sorry,
18    I misspoke, up through 1178, Line 5.
19          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you.
20          MR. BOWLES:  Thank you.
21          THE WITNESS:  "Q.  I see.  And
22          when did you make contact with
23          Gwen Mayfield?
24                 "A.    As I have said
25          before, it was February of '86.
2719
 1                 "Q.    And what
 2          happened?
 3                 "A.  I told her that I
 4          was no longer in the Mormon
 5          Church.  That I had broken up
 6          with Jeri Ellingson, who was my
 7          girlfriend at the time.  That I
 8          had disagreements with the
 9          Mormon Church on some other
10          doctrines, and how they required
11          individuals to tithe because in
12          the Mormon Church it's not a
13          voluntary thing.  It's a
14          required element of the faith.
15                 "And the fact that I was
16          disturbed by some of the things
17          that I had experienced inside
18          the Mormon Temple.  And the fact
19          that I had advised my bishop
20          that being so upset with what I
21          experienced in the temple that I
22          had told my mother about some of
23          those things.
24                 "And I was declared an
25          apostolate by the Mormon Church
2720
 1          because in their faith anything
 2          that is seen or heard within the
 3          walls of the Mormon Temple are
 4          extremely sacred.  And they
 5          believe that anyone that reveals
 6          those things that occur within
 7          the temple even though things
 8          have already been published by
 9          dissident members of the faith,
10          they consider that
11          sacrilegious.
12                 "And they said they were
13          going to bring me before a
14          church court to determine
15          whether I should be disciplined
16          for talking to my family about
17          what had happened in the
18          temple.  And I refused to go
19          before a church court.  I didn't
20          think it was necessary.  Because
21          I saw no reason why I could not
22          share my feelings with members
23          of my own family.  Particularly
24          my mother.
25                 "And I shared all this
2721
 1          stuff with Gwen Mayfield.  And I
 2          was told that given my past
 3          associations with the church and
 4          individuals in the church that I
 5          was never committed to taking
 6          courses, that I was
 7          wishy-washy.  That those are
 8          elements that I needed to be
 9          concerned with.
10                 "And suggestion of RPF
11          came up.  And when the
12          discussions of RPF were thrown
13          about by Gwen Mayfield, I became
14          disturbed and I took a razor
15          blade and I sliced my left wrist
16          with the intent to kill
17          myself."
18          Q.     Is that a correct transcription of
19    your testimony, sir?
20          A.     Yes, it is.
21          Q.     Are you still refusing to answer
22    questions with regard to that incident?
23          A.     Mr. Bowles, since I have spoken on
24    the record about my suicides, I have spoken with
25    counsel who told me that I don't have to talk
2722
 1    about it.  As you are fully aware, I do not have a
 2    lawyer sitting next to me representing me in these
 3    proceedings.  If I did you wouldn't have gotten as
 4    far as you have gotten already, sir, and you know
 5    that.  But I have been advised by counsel that
 6    that's personal and I never should have talked
 7    about it, and I certainly don't have to talk about
 8    it.  And if you want to go to court and get a
 9    judge to rule on that, feel free.
10          Q.     Did Mr. Carmichael visit you in the
11    hospital after this incident took place?
12          A.     I don't recall.
13          Q.     You don't recall.
14          A.     That's my answer.
15                 I would like to take a break.  It's
16    been over 45 minutes.
17          MR. BOWLES:  You want to show us your wrist
18    before you leave to prove you slashed it?
19          THE WITNESS:  Sure.  Mr. Calhoun.  If you
20    would like to -- if you notice the lines on my
21    right hand there.  If you will notice there is a
22    cut right there and also a cut that goes sideways
23    there.  Right there.
24          MR. CALHOUN:  There's indentations on your
25    skin.
2723
 1          THE WITNESS:  Sir, would you like to look.
 2    See the indentation right there, the white line is
 3    the wrist.
 4    BY MR. BOWLES:
 5          Q.     Why don't you show that to the
 6    camera.
 7          A.     How do I show this to the camera.
 8          Q.     The cameraman will --
 9          A.     Can you see this?  I don't know if
10    you are going to be able to see it on camera.  You
11    can see the natural lines of the right hand.  If
12    you look on the left hand here, you see the
13    indentation right there.  I don't know if you can
14    see that or not.  It's white.  It sticks out.
15          Q.     I missed the other.
16          A.     I'm sorry.  I will put them down like
17    this.  You can notice a difference.  There is an
18    indentation here where there is not one on my
19    right hand.
20          Q.     Did you get this here?
21          A.     That's from my watchband, sir.
22          Q.     Oh, I see.
23          A.     That's from the watchband.  I don't
24    know how you can make that many cuts into the
25    arm.  Geez.
2724
 1          Q.     So you did that to yourself on your
 2    left hand in February of '86; is that right?
 3          A.     Yes.  That is correct.
 4                 And I am going on a break.  I was off
 5    this thing too.
 6          MR. BOWLES:  Thank you.
 7          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
 8    Today is August 16th, 1993.  The time is
 9    3:46 P.M.  End of Tape 2, Volume XIV, continuing
10    deposition of Mr. Scarff.
11                 (Recess taken.)
12          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We are back on the record.
13    Today is August 16th, 1993.  The time is
14    4:16 P.M.  Beginning of Tape 3, Volume XIV,
15    continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff.
16    BY MR. BOWLES:
17          Q.     Mr. Scarff, will you waive your
18    doctor-patient privilege to reveal the files on
19    your claimed suicide or attempted suicide in early
20    1986?
21          A.     To you, absolutely not.
22                 Also, before you start questioning,
23    Mr. Bowles, I would like to meet and confer.
24    Since I am here representing myself, I have the
25    right to call for a meet and confer.  I am going
2725
 1    to do that.  Mr. Berry interviewed me for six and
 2    a half days and according to Judge Tassopoulos, it
 3    was my understanding that you would have just as
 4    much time to do so.  Today is the fourth and a
 5    half day you have done so.  And I am going to ask
 6    that you close out your deposition, your
 7    cross-examination by five o'clock Friday and that
 8    I plan to submit a request to Judge Tassopoulos
 9    tomorrow morning asking her that she re-enforce
10    that request.
11          Q.     So if our cross-examination is not
12    done by five o'clock Friday, you refuse to go
13    further with the deposition?
14          A.     No, sir, I am simply asking that you
15    conclude it by then because the court has ruled
16    that you should have ample time for
17    cross-examination.  The fact that Mr. Berry has
18    done so with me in six and a half days, you are in
19    your fourth and a half, I think you have been
20    given quite a bit if not more than enough ample
21    time to do a cross-examination.  And so I am going
22    to ask that you conclude it by five o'clock
23    Friday.  And I will submit a request to the court
24    tomorrow asking that the court back that up.
25          Q.     Do you have a scheduling problem
2726
 1    beyond next Friday?
 2          A.     Yes.  I would like to get on with my
 3    life, sir.  I have been in Los Angeles, Friday
 4    will be my fourth week here in L.A.  I thought
 5    this process was going to take no more than a week
 6    and a half.  I have a life to get back to and I
 7    would like to get back to that life.  I need to
 8    find a job.  I would like to get back on with my
 9    life.  I don't have time sitting here in L.A.
10    submitting to this constantly.  I have had to put
11    everything on hold here to complete this
12    deposition.
13          Q.     If we are not done by the end of
14    Friday, will you agree to come back at a later
15    time to complete your cross-examination?
16          A.     I am going to ask, Mr. Bowles, that
17    Judge Tassopoulos rule on that.  I am going to ask
18    that she rule that your cross-examination ends
19    Friday at five o'clock.  And that be the end of
20    your cross-examination.  If she rules against that
21    and says the cross-examination can continue at a
22    later date, well, certainly I will respect and
23    will abide by a judge's ruling in this matter.
24          Q.     If a judge orders you to return to
25    Oregon, I'm sorry, to return to California to
2727
 1    answer questions which you have refused to answer
 2    to date or up through the end of the
 3    cross-examination, will you return to California
 4    to do so?
 5          A.     If the judge rules in this matter, if
 6    a party, whatever party that may be, whether that
 7    be the court or yourself, pays for my expenses in
 8    doing so and flying out here, most definitely.
 9    But if it's simple case of coming back to
10    California, answering questions and my expenses
11    aren't met, absolutely not.  I don't have the
12    finances to fly around the country at will to do
13    things like that.
14          Q.     That's your full answer?
15          A.     That's my answer, sir.  And I just
16    went on record that I have had a meet and confer
17    with Mr. Bowles and that I am going to be taking
18    action by filing a request with Judge Tassopoulos
19    tomorrow.
20          Q.     To make the record clear, I am not
21    certain that we can represent that your
22    cross-examination will be ended by that time.  I
23    certainly will undertake to finish it before that
24    time but I cannot be limited by arbitrary time
25    limits when the record is so full of
2728
 1    misrepresentations, generalities and other
 2    failures to be consistent with your testimony.  We
 3    are entitled to explore those fully as Magistrate
 4    Judge Tassopoulos has already ruled.
 5          A.     Okay.  Well, you know, Judge
 6    Tassopoulos in the spirit of her ruling has
 7    already said give Mr. Bowles ample time to deal
 8    with this issue.  I think you have had ample
 9    time.  You have, at least I believe it was
10    Mr. Wiener that has said that he expects to have
11    just as much time in cross-exam as Mr. Berry has
12    had.  Mr. Berry had six and a half days, sir.
13    This is your fourth and a half day.  So if you
14    just want just as much time as Mr. Berry,
15    practically this cross-examination should end on
16    Wednesday afternoon at 5:00.  And I am saying
17    please have it done by Friday afternoon at 5:00
18    which gives you two full days of extra time that
19    Mr. Wiener had initially requested.  So I think
20    that is ample time for you to complete a
21    cross-exam.  And that's all I am going to say.
22          MR. BOWLES:  Mr. Calhoun -- thank you,
23    Mr. Scarff.
24                 Mr. Calhoun, in the spirit of a meet
25    and confer, do you intend after cross-examination
2729
 1    is over to conduct a redirect examination of this
 2    witness?  And if so, for how long a time?
 3          MR. CALHOUN:  I have got no idea.  Based on
 4    what I have heard so far, I don't intend to do any
 5    redirect.
 6          MR. BOWLES:  All right.
 7          Q.     And, Mr. Scarff, do you intend to
 8    approach Mr. Berry or Mr. Calhoun with your list
 9    of categories of redirect testimony to implore
10    them or to urge them to conduct a redirect
11    examination?
12          A.     I have already advised Mr. Berry that
13    there are issues which I want to address on
14    redirect.  Mr. Berry has advised me that I have no
15    right with which to do that because I am simply a
16    witness and that he does not represent me.  I have
17    been advised of that.  So, no, sir, I do not.
18          Q.     But you have requested that certain
19    areas become the subject of redirect examination;
20    haven't you?
21          A.     There have -- yes, there are areas
22    which you have wholly and purely misrepresented
23    yourself during this deposition which I felt that
24    he needed to address.  And he has advised me that
25    being that I am not represented by him, that I am
2730
 1    simply a witness, that I have no rights with which
 2    to request that of him.  Certainly I have no
 3    rights to demand it of him.  And he is the lawyer,
 4    I am not.  So I guess he knows what he is talking
 5    about.
 6          Q.     Okay.  So all I can tell you is make
 7    your motion.
 8          A.     I am going to, sir.
 9          Q.     Do you intend to make that under the
10    joint statement rules that the judge has already
11    set out?
12          A.     I haven't decided yet.
13          Q.     When are you going to decide?
14          A.     After this deposition today.
15          Q.     And you will let us know whether you
16    are going to follow the court's order or not?
17          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; mischaracterizes
18    the statement.
19          THE WITNESS:  I don't understand what you
20    are saying.  I have never said that I wasn't going
21    to follow the court's order.
22    BY MR. BOWLES:
23          Q.     You do understand what the court's
24    order was, don't you?
25          A.     I have read Judge Tassopoulos'
2731
 1    ruling, yes.
 2          Q.     Do you understand there is an
 3    expedited procedure in which a meet and confer
 4    takes place, a joint statement is prepared and
 5    then filed?
 6          A.     I only know what I have discussed
 7    with my counsel, Mr. Bowles, and what I have been
 8    told my rights are in this matter, which is why we
 9    had this meet and confer.  So if there is any type
10    of terminology I need to be aware of or anything
11    that I need to specifically do, I am sure I will
12    be advised of such.
13          Q.     Why don't you go over the magistrate
14    judge's order with your counsel and let me know by
15    tomorrow morning at 10:30 whether you are going to
16    comply with her directions on the expedited
17    procedures.
18          A.     Mr. Bowles, I will discuss it with
19    counsel.  If my counsel wants to deal with it by
20    10:30 in the morning, then he can do so.  But I am
21    not --
22          Q.     Why don't you have your counsel call
23    me then and tell me whether or not you are going
24    to follow the order?
25          A.     I will leave that up to counsel to
2732
 1    decide whether he wishes to even speak with you.
 2          Q.     I am available tomorrow morning to
 3    speak with counsel from my office from nine
 4    o'clock --
 5          A.     What time?
 6          Q.     From nine o'clock until 9:30 at which
 7    time I will be coming over to the deposition to
 8    continue it?
 9          A.     Okay.
10          Q.     So your counsel can call me at that
11    time or you personally can tell me whether you are
12    going to comply with the court's order on
13    expedited procedures when we start the deposition
14    later in the morning.  How does that sound?
15          A.     That's fine.  Again, I don't
16    understand what you mean by complying, but I am
17    sure he can explain it to me.  We will leave it at
18    that.
19          Q.     I am going to show you now --
20          A.     What's your phone number at Bowles &
21    Moxon now?  I know you change your phone numbers.
22          Q.     The number you can use is 661-4030.
23    I think you tried that earlier in the deposition
24    to try and establish it was not an operating
25    number.  It is.  You can call it and it will be
2733
 1    answered.
 2                 If you could hand the Page 1140 --
 3    are we done now?
 4          A.     Yes.  I am happy.
 5          MR. BOWLES:  If you could pass 1148,
 6    Counsel, to Mr. Scarff.
 7          Q.     And Mr. Scarff, if I may just look
 8    over that.
 9          A.     Sure.
10          Q.     If you could read Lines 15 through
11    18, sir.
12          A.     "Q.  What years did that
13          second involvement with
14          Scientology cover?
15                 "A.  Spring of 1982 to
16          August of '84, at which time I
17          went into the Mormon Church."
18          Q.     Is that an accurate transcription of
19    your testimony on direct examination in this
20    deposition?
21          A.     That's what I recall, yes.
22          Q.     Thank you.
23                 Let me have you read another short
24    section from earlier in the deposition.
25          A.     Mr. Calhoun.
2734
 1          Q.     And this goes from Page 1840, Line 14
 2    to Page 1842, Line 4.  Mr. Calhoun.
 3          MR. CALHOUN:  Thank you.
 4          THE WITNESS:  "Q.  Now, what did
 5          you do after you received this
 6          communications book?  Did you
 7          stay there and read the book or
 8          did you go home or what?
 9                 "A.  I spent some time
10          there in the reading room.  I
11          also took it home with me.
12                 "Q.  Now, during the time
13          that you were taking this
14          communications course, did you
15          have any discussions with
16          anybody regarding going on
17          staff?
18                 "A.  Not at this time,
19          no.
20                 "Q.  When did you have
21          these discussions regarding the
22          going on staff?
23                 "A.  February of 1984.
24                 "Q.  So you had completed
25          the communications course by
2735
 1          that time?
 2                 "A.  Yes.
 3                 "Q.  And between the time
 4          that you took the communications
 5          course and the time that you
 6          started discussing going on
 7          staff, had you taken any other
 8          Scientology courses?
 9                 "A.  There was a course
10          called philosophy, something to
11          do with philosophy.  Something
12          to do with ethics.  Problems of
13          work.
14                 "Q.  Now, was this one
15          course that you were describing
16          or --
17                 "A.  No, these are three
18          separate courses.
19                 "Q.  So the first course
20          was something about philosophy?
21                 "A.  Something about
22          philosophy.
23                 "Q.  Do you remember the
24          name of the course?
25                 "A.  No, sir, I don't.
2736
 1                 "Q.  And then the second
 2          course you said was something to
 3          do with --
 4                 "A.  Scientology ethics,
 5          something to do with Scientology
 6          ethics.  And then the other was
 7          problems of work.  And then
 8          there was one course that dealt
 9          with, and I forgot the name of
10          it, but it dealt with family
11          relationships, because I recall
12          talking to my mother about it.
13                 "Q.  Now, the order that
14          you described those, is that the
15          order that you took these
16          courses?
17                 "A.  I believe it was
18          communications, then philosophy,
19          then I think it was the family
20          relationships, then ethics, then
21          problems at work.  I am only
22          thinking here -- I believe
23          that's the order I took them in
24          but I am not positive.
25                 "Q.  When did you take
2737
 1          the philosophy course?
 2                 "A.  Again, like I said,
 3          I don't remember these dates,
 4          Mr. Wiener.  We are talking
 5          about 11 years ago.  A lot has
 6          happened since then.
 7                 "Q.  Do you recall how
 8          long after your communications
 9          course you took the philosophy
10          course?
11                 "A.  It was almost
12          immediately afterwards."
13                 You want to read these over before I
14    send them over, Mr. Calhoun?  They are not in
15    order.
16          MR. BOWLES:  Thanks a lot.
17          Q.     Did you pay for those courses?
18          A.     Yes, I did.
19          Q.     Did you pay for them in advance?
20          A.     I did with the communications course
21    back in 1976, but I didn't complete it.  And they
22    told me that I would not have to pay for it to
23    make it up the second time.
24          Q.     How about the other three courses?
25    Did you pay for those in advance?
2738
 1          A.     I recall that I paid something, yes.
 2          Q.     Did you pay for those courses in
 3    advance?
 4          A.     I just answered your question, sir.
 5    I said I believe so.
 6          Q.     Okay.  How much did you pay for the
 7    philosophy course?
 8          A.     Oh, boy.  I don't recall.  I want to
 9    say $25, but I am not sure.
10          Q.     How much did you pay for the family
11    relations course?
12          A.     I don't remember.  It's been a long
13    time ago.
14          Q.     All right.  How much did you pay for
15    the ethics course?
16          A.     I don't remember.
17          Q.     Were either of those courses more
18    than $100?
19          A.     I don't remember.  I am only guessing
20    here.
21          Q.     Do you recall how much you paid for
22    the problems in work course?
23          A.     I don't remember what it was.  I know
24    it was discounted.  I was given a discount, but I
25    don't remember.  It's been a long time ago.
2739
 1          Q.     Okay.
 2          A.     I don't even know how much they are
 3    now.
 4          Q.     Well, the two excerpts we have read
 5    here from 1148 and from 1840 and the surrounding
 6    pages, are these accurate transcriptions of your
 7    testimony?
 8          A.     I believe they are.  If you would
 9    like, I can go to the library and find out how
10    much things were back in 1982 to '84.  I don't
11    recall.
12          Q.     So you were in Scientology courses
13    from spring of '82 to the time you signed your
14    staff contract; is that correct?
15          A.     I took a communications course before
16    I signed the contract, but afterwards I took
17    courses, yes.
18          Q.     So from the spring of '82 until March
19    of '84 you took courses; is that right?
20          A.     August of '84.  August of '84 is when
21    I left to go to the Mormon Church.
22          Q.     I think your testimony was you took
23    all of these courses prior to the time you signed
24    the staff contract.  Is that right?
25          A.     That could be.  Like I said, I don't
2740
 1    remember.  You are asking me to pick out a memory
 2    that I don't have anymore. It happened a long time
 3    ago.  Frankly, I don't care what happened back in
 4    the Church of Scientology in 1982 to '84.  That's
 5    past history.
 6          Q.     Well, your testimony on 1841 says,
 7    the question is:
 8                 "Between the time you
 9          took the communications course
10          and the time that you started
11          discussing going on staff, had
12          you taken any other Scientology
13          courses?"
14                 And it's at that point you make the
15    testimony that you have just now read again
16    regarding the philosophy course, the family
17    relationships course, the ethics course and the
18    problems of work course.
19                 Is that still your testimony that you
20    took these four courses at that time?
21          A.     My testimony has been and it has
22    always been that I believe it to be so.  I don't
23    recall.  I don't remember specific dates.  I am
24    doing the best I can.  So, please, stop picking at
25    me, because I don't remember specific dates when
2741
 1    things occurred.  I am giving testimony based upon
 2    the best of my recollection.  That doesn't make it
 3    true and it certainly doesn't make it false.  It's
 4    based upon my memory at the time.  And frankly,
 5    it's not a very good memory.  And I am sure you
 6    don't remember what happened 11 years ago.  But
 7    you are right, I am the one answering questions,
 8    you are not.  It doesn't remove the fact that you
 9    may not remember things that happened 11 years
10    ago.
11                 And so I am simply telling you, sir,
12    that is my recollection.  I could be wrong.  You
13    could go right into the records of Scientology and
14    prove that I took the courses way before I signed
15    the contract.  I don't know.  I just don't
16    remember.  I think you are harassing me here.
17          Q.     That goes for all your testimony;
18    isn't that right?
19          A.     Mr. Bowles, I am going to have to
20    call another meet and confer with you, sir.  I
21    think that your behavior, your conduct, the way
22    you have presented this deposition has been wholly
23    abusive.  It is harassing.  The only point has
24    been to intimidate and to play games.  I am going
25    to ask that you stop and move on.  These are
2742
 1    questions you have already answered, asked.  These
 2    are answers that I have given.  And you have
 3    simply chosen to pick away and to intimidate and
 4    harass.  And I am going to ask you to stop.  And
 5    if you don't, I will just simply file another
 6    motion with the judge asking her to intercede.
 7                 (At this point GRAHAM BERRY, ESQ.
 8          entered the deposition proceedings.)
 9    BY MR. BOWLES:
10          Q.     Are you terminating the deposition at
11    this point, Mr. Scarff?
12          A.     Absolutely not.  I am asking you to
13    show some professional integrity here which you
14    have not shown much of since you have been in this
15    deposition.  And that you treat witnesses with the
16    respect that you are supposed to be treating them
17    and not use this as a showcase to humiliate, annoy
18    and harass witnesses which you have done so in
19    great detail since you have been here,
20    Mr. Bowles.
21                 Mr. Wiener, has been polite and
22    respectful, although it is well known that we
23    don't like each other.  But your behavior has been
24    absolutely atrocious if not totally out of
25    proportion to what you are supposed to be doing
2743
 1    here.
 2          Q.     My question to you, sir --
 3          A.     And I just --
 4          Q.     Is that the end of your meet and
 5    confer because I am going to keep asking you
 6    questions now?
 7          A.     And I am telling you, sir, if it has
 8    nothing to do with stuff that's already been on
 9    record, things that I have already discussed, I am
10    going to refuse at this point from even discussing
11    them further.  If it has to be asked and answered
12    a hundred times, so be it.  But anything that I
13    have already discussed, anything that's already on
14    record, you have no right, sir, to intimidate
15    witnesses, constantly pick at them for answers
16    they have already given.  I have already given
17    that information based on my memory, based on my
18    recollection.  And that's the best I can do.
19                 If you are simply going to push over,
20    and push over the line and move over the line to
21    try to use it to try to harass, you can do it all
22    you want.  I am not going to listen to it and I am
23    certainly not going to stand here and abide by it
24    or sit here and abide by it.
25                 I am asking you to move on and get on
2744
 1    to new material.  Stop with the bullshit.  Stop
 2    with the abuse.  Stop with the harassment because
 3    I am not going to take it anymore. I am not going
 4    to put up with it anymore. If I have to sit here
 5    and quote asked and answered a million times, I am
 6    going to do it.  That is my meet and confer, sir.
 7          Q.     Are you done?
 8          A.     I would like a response from you.
 9          Q.     My response I just gave you.  I am
10    going to continue to ask questions and
11    cross-examination within the scope of direct.
12          A.     So are you saying that in a
13    cross-examination you are entitled to harass,
14    annoy and intimidate witnesses?  Is that what you
15    are saying?
16          Q.     I am entitled to the truth so just
17    answer my questions.
18          A.     We are not done with this meet and
19    confer, sir.  We are not done here.  You haven't
20    answered my question.  Are you saying that you are
21    going to continue on your path of harassing,
22    intimidating?
23          Q.     No.  I am going to continue on my
24    path to show you contradictory testimony.  I am
25    going to ask you whether or not one is true or the
2745
 1    other is true.  That's all we have been doing
 2    today.  And I am entitled to your correct answer.
 3          A.     Yes, you are, Mr. Bowles, but one
 4    thing you are not entitled to is constantly
 5    drilling a witness on things that he has already
 6    answered to with the best that he could do and
 7    recollection.  And you constantly drilling the
 8    point over and over and over again.  And I can sit
 9    here and say "asked and answered" and you continue
10    to drill a point.  That, sir, is harassment.  You
11    have stepped over the line.  You know you have
12    stepped over the line.
13                 So I am telling you from now on, if
14    there is a question that has already been asked
15    and I have given testimony to that question
16    whether it be once, twice or in some cases at
17    least four times and you continue to press me with
18    that, you are not going to get a response, sir.  I
19    will refuse to give you that response.  Because
20    it's on the record.  The record will stand for
21    itself.  That's all I have to say, sir.
22          Q.     Okay.  Thank you.
23                 Would you draw me a floor plan of
24    the --
25          A.     I will not draw you a floor plan of
2746
 1    anything, sir.  I have also been told by counsel
 2    that you are here to question here and to elicit
 3    answers from me, but I am not here on display.  I
 4    am not here to provide you any type of
 5    demonstrations.  I am certainly not here or
 6    required to do any type of exhibits or exhibitions
 7    for you, sir.  If you get your jollies, maybe you
 8    should take Mr. Long outside and do it with him.
 9    Maybe he can draw for you.
10          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
11          A.     It's non --
12          Q.     You are refusing to draw me a floor
13    plan of the Mission of Davis in 1982?
14          A.     I have been advised by counsel that I
15    am not required to.
16          Q.     Which counsel advised you of that?
17          A.     As I have already said before, I am
18    not going to give you that information because you
19    have waged an unlawful campaign of Fair Game on
20    this individual as well as other individuals.  And
21    you can sit there and smirk with a big smile on
22    your face, it's being caught on film now, but I am
23    not going to give it to you, Mr. Bowles.
24          Q.     You are refusing to give that to me;
25    is that right?
2747
 1          A.     Asked and answered, Counselor.
 2          Q.     Where was the center in which you
 3    took these four courses?
 4          A.     Mission of Davis.  Seventh and Salmon
 5    Street.
 6          Q.     At that time in the spring of '82
 7    through August of '84 was there any other
 8    Scientology facility in the City of Portland?
 9          A.     Yes, there was.
10          Q.     Where was that?
11          A.     Around that time there was a small
12    area on Park Avenue where they were having Sunday
13    services.  And I believe they were also taking
14    some courses there.  And there was also a walk-in
15    facility across the street at a location, which is
16    now the Heathman Hotel at the corner of Broadway
17    and Salmon.  And this is where a lot of the
18    individuals were brought in to take the
19    personality test.
20                 (At this point GRAHAM BERRY, ESQ.
21          left the deposition proceedings.)
22    BY MR. BOWLES:
23          Q.     This Park Avenue facility, what was
24    the cross street?
25          A.     It was between -- I am trying to
2748
 1    remember the cross street.  I want to say between
 2    Alder and Morrison Street on Park.
 3          Q.     What was the nearest numbered cross
 4    street?
 5          A.     That's the best answer I can give
 6    you.  I don't recall.  That's the best answer I
 7    can give you.  It was on Park Avenue between Alder
 8    Street and Morrison Street.  And it's in an area
 9    which is now a health food store, I believe.  And
10    it is right next to what today remains to be a
11    paper and gift shop.
12          Q.     Did that particular center have a
13    name?
14          A.     I don't recall.  It certainly didn't
15    have a sign in the front.
16          Q.     Did you make any applications for
17    staff prior to March of 1984?
18          A.     No.
19          Q.     Did you make any applications for
20    staff at any other center of Scientology besides
21    the Mission of Davis at any time?
22          A.     I want to say no.  I could be wrong.
23    It's been a long time.  But my answer would be no,
24    not that I can recollect.
25          Q.     Between --
2749
 1          A.     You are talking about since 1976?
 2          Q.     From 1982 -- let's just limit it to
 3    1982 to 1984.  Did you make any staff applications
 4    to any other center other than the Mission of
 5    Davis?
 6          A.     Not that I can recollect.
 7          Q.     Were you in good standing with all
 8    churches of Scientology during that period of
 9    time, spring of '82 to August of '84?
10          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
11    speculation and lacks foundation.
12          THE WITNESS:  I would be speculating so I
13    can't give you an answer because I don't know.
14    BY MR. BOWLES:
15          Q.     Were you a member of PAC at the
16    time?
17          A.     Was I a member of PAC?  I was
18    receiving the newsletter.
19          Q.     Were you actively participating in
20    PAC activities at this period of time, spring of
21    '82 to August of '84?
22          A.     I was attending the Positive Action
23    Center.  And I was meeting with Anne Greek as a
24    counselor.  And, yes, I volunteered to help her
25    out at meetings.  But I was not speaking out.  I
2750
 1    was not traveling around the country as the Greeks
 2    usually did at that time giving presentations or
 3    stuff like that.
 4                 As I have said before in testimony,
 5    at that time I saw Anne Greek as a counselor, as a
 6    mother-type.  That's where my affinity for Anne
 7    Greek came from was the fact that I saw her as a
 8    second mother, so to speak.  And so when she asked
 9    me to help her out, I helped her out.  Simply
10    because I was present at a meeting didn't mean
11    that I endorsed what was happening in the
12    meeting.  Certainly I wasn't a spy for the
13    Positive Action Center.  I was simply there to
14    help out someone that I thought of as a friend.
15          Q.     Did you disclose to the Church of
16    Scientology during the period of spring '82 to
17    August '84 that you were visiting the Positive
18    Action Center and participating in its
19    activities?
20          A.     No.  Because they already knew.  They
21    already knew that I had associations with the
22    Positive Action Center.
23          Q.     So it's your testimony they knew and
24    yet they allowed you to continue on courses at the
25    Scientology center?
2751
 1          A.     Yes.  Because they knew exactly why.
 2    I made it very clear to them at the time that I
 3    saw Anne Greek as a mother figure.  I told her,
 4    told them I was having problems with my own
 5    parents.  That I was estranged from my mother.
 6    And that's why I gravitated toward Anne Greek.
 7    And they told me it would be best that I not get
 8    involved with any type of their stuff including
 9    running out to schools and churches and promoting
10    ex-cultism.  And I don't recall if I ever did
11    that.
12                 It has also been my testimony,
13    Mr. Bowles, several times that at that period that
14    I was of the mind-set to get attention wherever it
15    was available.  And so when love and affection was
16    shown to me by Anne Greek, I went to it like a
17    magnet.  When it was shown to me in the Church of
18    Scientology, I went to them like a magnet.  And I
19    was a Ping-Pong ball.  I went back and forth.
20          Q.     You are flip flopping.  Is that
21    right?
22          A.     Well, yeah.  In fact I have already
23    said on record because John Carmichael said I was
24    wishy-washy and they made the suggestion that I go
25    to RPF and that's why I slit my wrists.  Yeah,
2752
 1    definitely I was emotionally wishy-washy during
 2    that time.  I have no problem with that.  I admit
 3    to that.  And if it was such a crime that I was
 4    wishy-washy and I had no credibility, strikes me
 5    as strange that Eugene Ingram would come knocking
 6    on my door and pay me to work with the Church of
 7    Scientology.
 8          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive that last
 9    part.
10          A.     It's recorded in the evidence,
11    Mr. Bowles.  You can't strike something that's
12    been in the evidence.  It's documented fact.  I
13    don't see how that can be nonresponsive, sir.
14          Q.     So, who was your supervisor during
15    these courses you took at the Mission of Davis
16    from the spring of '82 to the time you signed the
17    staff contract?
18          A.     The only person that I spoke with
19    during that time was John Carmichael.
20          Q.     Was he your supervisor?
21          A.     And there was a woman, Alana Arnold,
22    I think her last name was Arnold, it was Alana.  I
23    met her at Portland State University.  And I
24    wanted to say a gentleman by the last name of
25    Murray, but I am not positive.
2753
 1          Q.     Were you on a regular schedule when
 2    you took these courses?
 3          A.     I'm sorry?
 4          Q.     Were you on a regular schedule at the
 5    Mission of Davis when you took these courses?
 6          A.     They tried to put me on a regular
 7    schedule of coming in at a specific time every
 8    day, I believe it was like four o'clock in the
 9    afternoon, but I could not, because I had courses
10    and I was constantly trying to keep up my courses
11    at Portland State University.  And sometimes I
12    came in late.  But I recall usually my classes
13    ended at 3:00 in the afternoon, and I went down
14    there at four o'clock.  And I spent maybe till six
15    or seven o'clock at the Mission of Davis.
16          Q.     So, during this period of time,
17    although you were associated with the Positive
18    Action Center, you certainly did nothing hostile
19    to the Church of Scientology; is that right?
20          A.     I don't think -- no, I don't think I
21    did hostile -- not that I can recall.
22          Q.     You don't recall any complaints to
23    any state or federal authorities against the
24    Church of Scientology during that time?
25          A.     Between '82, you are talking about
2754
 1    Fred King which happened in '79.
 2          Q.     No.  I am just talking about anything
 3    between the spring of '82 and August of '84 now.
 4          A.     Not to federal and state officials.
 5    I recall going to Anne Greek and telling her that
 6    I had problems with people and things were being
 7    said, but I would not tell her the scope of that.
 8    And I also told people in Scientology about what
 9    was happening in the Positive Action Center.
10                 The one thing that I found out very
11    keen about the Church of Scientology is no one
12    told me to stop but they were very interested in
13    what was being said and what was being seen at the
14    Positive Action Center.  And so it was very
15    interesting that I became one's chosen little spy
16    in the Positive Action Center to give them what
17    was happening and what the conversations were.
18    But even then, I didn't recall, I didn't even
19    realize the extent of why they were asking me to
20    do that.
21          Q.     So you were doing hostile acts
22    against the Positive Action Center at this time;
23    is that correct?
24          A.     Mr. Bowles, hostile acts is a term
25    that you use in the Church of Scientology to
2755
 1    attack your critics.  I have never used that word,
 2    sir.
 3          Q.     So you were spying on the Positive
 4    Action Center at that time; is that right?
 5          A.     Sir, spying is a word that you use to
 6    attack your enemies.  I am not a Scientologist
 7    anymore so please use layman words, please.
 8          Q.     I think you just used that word,
 9    didn't you?
10          A.     Spying on the Positive Action
11    Center?  I didn't say I was spying.
12          Q.     Oh, maybe I misheard you but I guess
13    it's on the record.
14          A.     You did.  I used to use the word
15    "spying" when I was in Scientology, but I am not
16    a member anymore so please refrain from it.  I am
17    not a spy.
18          Q.     Were you taking information from the
19    Positive Action Center and without the Positive
20    Action Center's knowledge passing it back to the
21    Church of Scientology during this period?
22          A.     Mr. Bowles, you make it sound like a
23    cloak and dagger operation.  Only you coming from
24    the OSA would compare it to some intelligence spy
25    operation.  This was not an intelligence spy
2756
 1    operation.  I was asked to keep them informed
 2    about what was going on in the Positive Action
 3    Center at that time.  Someone may look at that and
 4    say that was spying.  But to me that was simply
 5    telling them what's going on.  It's information,
 6    sir.  It's called information.  And certainly they
 7    were not doing anything that the public was not
 8    involved in.  There was no secret spy stuff that
 9    goes on like what occurs in your church on a daily
10    basis.
11          Q.     Did the Greeks know you were passing
12    this information to the Church of Scientology?
13          A.     No.  No, they didn't.  And the reason
14    is if they knew I was attached with Scientology,
15    they would flip out and probably disown me.
16          Q.     But the Church of Scientology didn't
17    flip out when they knew that you were associated
18    with the PAC; is that right?
19          A.     No.  And even today they wouldn't,
20    because that's why they get off on spying and
21    doing intelligence operations on people.  They get
22    off on the information that they can secure
23    unethically and unlawfully, you know.  It's too
24    bad too, because the Greeks had a lot of
25    integrity.  Which is something you certainly
2757
 1    cannot talk about, sir.
 2          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
 3          A.     Nonresponsive but very factual, sir.
 4    As you well know.
 5                 I want to take a short bathroom
 6    break.  Be right back.
 7          Q.     Mr. Scarff, it's now ten minutes to
 8    5:00.  So I would appreciate this break to be
 9    short since we are going to finish up right around
10    five o'clock.
11          THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Timmy.  I will be
12    right back.
13          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
14    The time is 4:50 P.M.
15                 (Recess taken.)
16          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We are back on the record.
17    The time is 4:52 P.M.
18    BY MR. BOWLES:
19          Q.     Mr. Scarff, who were you passing this
20    information to at the Church of Scientology?
21          A.     John Carmichael.
22          Q.     Anybody else?
23          A.     There were some people I was told to
24    give it to if John wasn't there, but, again, I
25    don't recall their names.  I have all that stuff
2758
 1    at home.  And if I am called to trial and I
 2    testify at trial, I will certainly be able to
 3    bring all those names up because I have all that
 4    stuff substantiated at home.
 5          Q.     In what form?
 6          A.     I have all the names and I have
 7    some -- even the addresses of people that were
 8    involved.
 9          Q.     In what form?  Is this
10    correspondence, your own internal notes or what?
11          A.     Not only internal notes but notes
12    that I have gotten from these people that I have
13    saved over the years.  I want to say Jim Condon.
14    I remember talking with Cathy Condon on occasion.
15    There is a name that escapes me.  It's a gentleman
16    whose brother had been involved in the Cult
17    Awareness Network for a while, but I don't
18    remember his name.
19          Q.     And these people trusted you, huh?
20          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
21    speculation.  Lacks foundation.
22          THE WITNESS:  Well, Mr. Bowles, you
23    evidently know who these people are.  Why don't
24    you ask them whether they trusted me or not.
25    BY MR. BOWLES:
2759
 1          Q.     Were there any others other than the
 2    ones you mentioned?
 3          A.     That's all I recall.
 4          Q.     When you were passing this
 5    information about the Positive Action Center, did
 6    they trust you as being someone ally to the Church
 7    of Scientology?
 8          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
 9    speculation.  Lacks foundation.
10          THE WITNESS:  First of all, Mr. Bowles, I
11    take exception to "passing this information."  I
12    simply related in social conversation what was
13    happening with the Positive Action Center with
14    regards to meetings that they were having,
15    meetings that they were planning.  Some of those
16    meetings, of course, you would recall since you
17    have been in Oregon.  You have probably seen the
18    newsletters that come out of the Positive Action
19    Center that some of these meetings were announced
20    in their newsletter and conversations that I had
21    with Anne Greek which had nothing, absolutely
22    nothing to do with the Church of Scientology.  It
23    had to do with my estrangement with my parents and
24    other things of a counseling nature.  And I did
25    not see what I was doing was insidious in any
2760
 1    way.  I was simply passing along information.  And
 2    that was my mind-set at the time.
 3                 So, yes, I can look back now and say
 4    I shouldn't have done that, but at that time I
 5    felt here is a group of friendly people that I
 6    wanted to be a part of, and they are asking me for
 7    this help.  And I freely gave it because I felt
 8    they wanted it and that it would improve my
 9    chances of being accepted among this group.  And
10    that's why I did it.
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     So you did that in order to engender
13    trust from these people?  Is that right?
14          A.     Yeah.  Yeah.  I did.
15          Q.     Did you do anything to betray that
16    trust during this period of time of spring of '82
17    to August of '84?
18          A.     I may have.  I may have gotten angry
19    at someone.  I may have said something.  And I may
20    have said something out of anger, but I don't
21    recall.  You keep records.  So you would be in a
22    better position to tell me than I can.  Because I
23    don't keep records of everything that happened way
24    back when.
25                 I just remember when I left
2761
 1    Scientology I sat down and I pulled all my
 2    resources together to document everything that I
 3    had been involved in.  Who I was with.  And I have
 4    that on file at home, but I don't recall.
 5          Q.     But as to Mr. Carmichael and the
 6    Condons and this other person you mentioned you
 7    can't remember the name, did you represent to them
 8    that you were their friend during this period of
 9    time?
10          A.     I don't recall that, no.  Because I
11    think it was widely understood there why I was
12    there.  Maybe some people did trust me.  I don't
13    know.  But John was very friendly with me.  He was
14    very giving.  He was very accepting.  And
15    certainly the attitude which he portrayed to me at
16    that time was clearly different than the attitude
17    and respect in which you have not treated me,
18    sir.  So I have some fond memories back at that
19    time.
20          Q.     We will strike that as
21    nonresponsive.
22                 Mr. Scarff, were you lying to
23    Mr. Carmichael when you passed him information and
24    made efforts to have him trust you?
25          A.     No.
2762
 1          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
 2          THE WITNESS:  No.  That's not true.
 3    BY MR. BOWLES:
 4          Q.     The same answer for the Condons?
 5          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
 6          THE WITNESS:  No.  I was passing
 7    information, your words, my words is I was telling
 8    them what was going on in the Positive Action
 9    Center.  I don't ever recall feeding them
10    misinformation as you would term it.
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     My question was, were you lying to
13    them and passing them information and asking them
14    to trust you in return?
15          A.     No.
16          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; vague and
17    ambiguous.
18    BY MR. BOWLES:
19          Q.     So you had no intent to betray them
20    at that time; is that right?
21          A.     No, not that I can recall.
22          MR. BOWLES:  Let me show you an exhibit and
23    ask you to identify it.  This is going to be
24    marked as Exhibit-198.  Counsel, here is your
25    copy.
2763
 1                 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 198
 2          was marked for identification and is
 3          bound separately.)
 4          MR. BOWLES:  This is a three-page document.
 5    First is a letter from Department of Justice,
 6    Consumer Protection Division, dated May 24, 1982.
 7    Second two page, second and third pages bear a
 8    consumer complaint form dated May 18, 1992.
 9          THE WITNESS:  I can't read the bottom line.
10    What does the bottom line say?
11    BY MR. BOWLES:
12          Q.     I can't read it either.  But go ahead
13    and read the next page.
14          A.     I don't recall this.
15          Q.     Was that your signature on the last
16    page?
17          A.     Well, someone signed Garry Scarff,
18    but it could be.  I don't know.  I don't
19    remember.
20          Q.     Does that appear to be your
21    signature?
22          A.     No.
23          Q.     So are you saying this is a forgery,
24    sir?
25          A.     No.  What I am saying, Mr. Bowles,
2764
 1    and I am going to pull Exhibit-1, I am going to
 2    pull Exhibit-2 and I am going to pull Exhibit-3.
 3    Because we have been over this before.  I am not
 4    going to pull Exhibit-1 -- well, let's see.  There
 5    it is.
 6                 Mr. Bowles, there is my exhibit,
 7    sir.  And if you look -- I didn't throw it at
 8    you.  I just laid it there, sir, so you can't
 9    accuse me of assaulting you with a transcript.
10                 If you read this here, and you look
11    at the signatures on Exhibit-2 and also look at
12    the signature on 3 and compare them, you will
13    notice they are similar.  If you compare it with
14    that signature, you will notice it's not similar
15    at all.
16          Q.     Is it your testimony that the
17    signature on the third page of this exhibit is a
18    forgery?
19          A.     No, sir.  I am just saying that I
20    don't recall this going out.  I don't recall
21    making this complaint.  It certainly does not look
22    like my signature.  I don't recall signing this.
23    It is -- Scarff is certainly signed in a way that
24    is not the way that I have signed things.
25                 Again, I would refer you to the
2765
 1    exhibits in which I have signed and which you have
 2    referred to at great length during my deposition,
 3    and it does not match up with this signature.
 4          Q.     Do you deny making a complaint to the
 5    Department of Justice, Consumer Protection
 6    Division on May 18, 1982 regarding the Church of
 7    Scientology?
 8          A.     I am not denying it and I am not
 9    saying it's true.  I just don't recall.  I really
10    do not remember making this complaint.
11          Q.     You have read the text of this
12    complaint; correct, as we have just sat here?
13          A.     No, do you want me to read it?
14          Q.     Go ahead.  You can read it out loud.
15          A.     Sure.  Okay.  "Consumer Complaint
16    Form, File No. 82-14071.
17          Q.     To speed this up, Mr. Scarff, why
18    don't you start reading on Monday, May 18, the
19    text of the complaint.
20          A.     I'm sorry, it says May 17th, sir.  At
21    ten o'clock.
22          Q.     What I am asking you to do, midway
23    down the page, there is a typewritten text.
24          A.     Okay.
25          Q.     Start reading from there, sir.
2766
 1          A.     "On Monday, May 18th,
 2          after reading a want ad in the
 3          Sunday Oregonian Help Wanted for
 4          a 'Counselor' job, I went to the
 5          business The Dianetic Center to
 6          apply.  When I asked for the job
 7          salary and qualifications, I was
 8          told that the job paid $5 to $10
 9          per hour and that the
10          qualifications included taking
11          two tests:  an IQ and
12          Personality Analysis test.  If I
13          met a minimum score required for
14          the position, I would then have
15          to take two courses that would
16          cost $70 combined, which would
17          last 15 hours a course over a
18          two to three week period.  Only
19          after then, would I be told if I
20          got the job.  However, the
21          newspaper ad failed to note that
22          this 'job' was with the Church
23          of Scientology and that the
24          personality test is one which I
25          have been asked to take by
2767
 1          members of the church over a
 2          year ago when they were
 3          recruiting on the corner of
 4          Southwest Broadway and Salmon,
 5          where the Church of Scientology
 6          is located.  Also, I got the
 7          impression that there really is
 8          not employment here, since the
 9          girl who interviewed me was not
10          interested in my work
11          experience -- only that I
12          wanted to 'help people' and
13          willing to take the courses.  I
14          feel like the newspaper ad was
15          fraudently used to recruit for
16          this arm of the church."
17                 And then it has in
18          parentheses three asterisks "I
19          do not care if this complaint is
20          forwarded to the Church of
21          Scientology, however, I
22          sincerely request" --
23                 Then I can't read the rest of it.
24          MR. CALHOUN:  "That my unlisted phone number
25    above not be given."
2768
 1    BY MR. BOWLES:
 2          Q.     Is that what it appears to say,
 3    Mr. Scarff?
 4          A.     I don't know, I can't read it.
 5          MR. BOWLES:  I would agree with
 6    Mr. Calhoun.
 7          THE WITNESS:  Again, the second page,
 8    "but" -- I'm sorry, no, it says, "out."
 9                 "After I took a
10          personality test with this
11          church last year and gave them
12          my telephone number, I was
13          harassed by numerous telephone
14          calls by the church trying to
15          get me to join as well as
16          several intimidating members of
17          this group coming to my
18          apartment at all hours of the
19          day proselytizing for their
20          church.  Thank you very much,
21          Garry L. Scarff."
22                 Then it has a copy of the newspaper
23    ad.
24    BY MR. BOWLES:
25          Q.     All right.  So having read that, does
2769
 1    that refresh your recollection as to whether you
 2    made this complaint?
 3          A.     No, it doesn't.
 4          Q.     It's possible you did make it?
 5          A.     It's very possible I did and I am not
 6    denying that I haven't.  I just don't remember.
 7    It strikes me as real funny though, that if I did,
 8    why the church welcomed me with open arms back in
 9    1991 and even paid me to do certain things for the
10    church.  It's real curious.
11          Q.     Doesn't make sense, does it?
12          A.     It doesn't.
13          Q.     Doesn't make since they would welcome
14    you with arm opens in 1982, does it?
15          A.     No.  Why did you, sir?  Why did you?
16          Q.     Doesn't make sense, does it?
17          A.     Well, Mr. Bowles, your office paid
18    me, sir, to lie.  Why is that, sir?
19          Q.     Strike as nonresponsive.
20          A.     Mr. Bowles, do we need to refer to
21    the receipts, sir?  I have the receipts.
22          Q.     I am talking about 1982.
23          A.     No, you brought up '82 and '92 both.
24          Q.     Mr. Scarff, just listen to the
25    question.
2770
 1          A.     Well --
 2          Q.     Doesn't make sense that the church
 3    would welcome you with open arms and give you
 4    courses when you were filing complaints against
 5    them, would it?
 6          A.     It wouldn't make sense if, in fact, I
 7    filed this complaint, no, it would not.  But then,
 8    here down the line, you welcome me with open arms
 9    in 1991, and you can't seem to address or want to
10    address that issue, sir.  You even paid me over
11    $1,100 to provide you, to sign a phony declaration
12    even after all of this apparent history has been
13    throw out on me.  The fact that I am someone that
14    can't be trusted and your office paid me, sir,
15    $1,100 to be a part of a scheme with your office.
16                 Would you please explain that to me,
17    sir, why you did that if you can't trust me?
18          Q.     Are you to be trusted, Mr. Scarff?
19          A.     Well, why did you pay me $1,100,
20    Mr. Bowles?
21          Q.     Are you worthy of trust?
22          A.     Mr. Bowles, why did you pay me
23    $1,100, sir?
24          Q.     You can answer my question yes or
25    no.
2771
 1          A.     I just answered it.
 2          Q.     Are you worthy of trust?
 3          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; calls for
 4    speculation and argumentative.
 5          THE WITNESS:  You evidently thought so
 6    because you paid me $1,100 to participate in an
 7    unlawful scheme against other individuals.
 8    BY MR. BOWLES:
 9          Q.     Mr. Scarff, in October of 1991, were
10    you worthy of trust?
11          A.     Yes.
12          MR. CALHOUN:  Objection; argumentative.
13          MR. BOWLES:  Thank you.
14          THE WITNESS:  I think I was worthy of trust
15    and friendship and you totally betrayed that.  You
16    belong in jail for that.  You are a bastard when
17    it comes to any type of integrity.
18          MR. BOWLES:  Strike as nonresponsive.
19          THE WITNESS:  It's nonresponsive but I am
20    going to make every attempt to see you are behind
21    bars before this year is over.  Trust me.
22    BY MR. BOWLES:
23          Q.     That's your answer?
24          A.     That's my answer, sir.
25          MR. BOWLES:  It's a little after 5:00.  We
2772
 1    will reconvene tomorrow.
 2          VIDEO OPERATOR:  We will go off the record.
 3    Today is August 16th, 1993.  The time is
 4    5:06 P.M.  End of Tape 3, Volume XIV, continuing
 5    deposition of Mr. Scarff.
 6                 (TIME NOTED:  5:06 P.M.)
 7                 I declare under penalty of perjury
 8          under the laws of the State of California
 9          that the foregoing is true and correct.
10                 Executed on ____________________,
11          19____, at _______________________________,
12          California.
13
14
15                    ________________________
16                    SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2773
 1    STATE OF CALIFORNIA     ) ss:
 2    COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES   )
 3
 4        I, LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222, do hereby
 5    certify:
 6        That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L.
 7    SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place
 8    therein set forth, at which time the witness was
 9    put under oath by me;
10        That the testimony of the witness and all
11    objections made at the time of the examination
12    were recorded stenographically by me, were
13    thereafter transcribed under my direction and
14    supervision and that the foregoing is a true
15    record of same.
16        I further certify that I am neither counsel
17    for nor related to any party to said action, nor
18    in anywise interested in the outcome thereof.
19        IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name
20    this 16th day of August, 1993.
21
22
23                 _____________________________________
24                   LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222
25
2774
 1    STATE OF CALIFORNIA     ) ss:
 2    COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES   )
 3
 4        I, PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499, do
 5    hereby certify:
 6        That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L.
 7    SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place
 8    therein set forth, at which time the witness was
 9    put under oath by me;
10        That the testimony of the witness and all
11    objections made at the time of the examination
12    were recorded stenographically by me, were
13    thereafter transcribed under my direction and
14    supervision and that the foregoing is a true
15    record of same.
16        I further certify that I am neither counsel
17    for nor related to any party to said action, nor
18    in anywise interested in the outcome thereof.
19        IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name
20    this 16th day of August, 1993.
21
22
23                 _____________________________________
24                  PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499
25
2775
 1                         I N D E X
 2                         VOLUME XV
 3
 4    MONDAY, AUGUST 16, 1993
 5
 6    WITNESS                              EXAMINATION
 7
 8    GARRY L. SCARFF
 9
10                 (By Mr. Bowles)            2553
11                 (By Mr. Bowles)            2640
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2776
 1                    DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
 2                      GARRY L. SCARFF
 3
 4    NUMBER              DESCRIPTION         IDENTIFIED
 5      197        One-page handwritten list.       2655
 6
 7      198        One-page letter to the           2763
 8                 Dianetic Center from R. G.
 9                 Cornthwaite, dated May 24,
10                 1982, with two-page
11                 attachment.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
 
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