------------------------------------------------------------------- F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. (Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network, Incorporated) a non-profit computer bulletin board and electronic library 601 16th St. #C-217 Golden, Colorado 80401 USA BBS 303 530-1942 FAX 303 530-2950 Office 303 473-0111 This document is part of an electronic lending library and preservational electronic archive. F.A.C.T.Net does not sell documents, it only lends them according to the terms of your library cardholder agreement with F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. ===================================================================== ÿWPCN ûÿ2 BVP Z¦ Courier 10cpiðÿÿ‰?xxx,Ûwôxþ6X@É“8Ç;X@þþþþþþþÿþÿÿÿþÿÿþÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿHP LaserJet IIIes IIHPLASIII.PRSÛx Œ @ɇÏ,\,ðQfvX@ÐÐûÿ2<L#|x2777 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 ------------------------------ 5 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY ) 6 INTERNATIONAL, a California ) 7 non-profit religious ) 8 organization, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 vs. )No. 93-3843-HLH(Tx) 11 STEVEN FISHMAN and UWE GEERTZ,)VOLUME XVI 12 Defendants. ) 13 ------------------------------ 14 15 Continued deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF, 16 at 221 North Figueroa Street, Suite 1200, 17 Los Angeles, California, commencing at 18 10:25 A.M., Tuesday, August 17, 1993, 19 before Paulette M. Griffin, CSR No. 2499 20 and Lee Brenneman, CSR No. 5222. 21 22 23 24 25 PAGES 2777-2987 2778 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 5 BOWLES & MOXON 6 BY: TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ. 7 6255 Sunset Boulevard 8 Suite 2000 9 Hollywood, California 90028 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT UWE GEERTZ: 12 13 LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD 14 BY: GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 15 221 North Figueroa Street 16 Suite 1200 17 Los Angeles, California 90012 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 21 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 22 BOB BICHLER 23 24 25 2779 1 GARRY L. SCARFF,Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 2 having been previously duly sworn, testified 3 further as follows: 4 5 VIDEO OPERATOR: Good morning. We are back 6 on the record. Today is August 17th, 1993. The 7 time is 10:25 A.M. Beginning of Tape 1, 8 Volume XV, continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 9 10 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Morning, Mr. Scarff. 13 A. Good morning. 14 MR. BOWLES: Morning, Mr. Calhoun. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Morning, Counsel. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. All right. Mr. Scarff, you are still 18 under oath. You understand that? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Any more on your plan to motion? 21 A. Yes, I do. I will have the motions 22 here tomorrow at ten o'clock and they will be 23 filed tomorrow to be heard on Thursday. 24 Q. So are you following the joint 25 statement procedure specified by the judge? 2780 1 A. Yes, I am. 2 Q. All right. So, -- fine. So you are 3 filing these by yourself? 4 A. I am filing them with the help of 5 counsel. 6 Q. Will counsel's name be on the 7 papers? 8 A. I am sure they will be, sir. 9 Q. So at that time we will finally know 10 who counsel is; is that right? 11 A. Counsel, I have just answered your 12 question. Let's move on. 13 Q. So we have no ability to contact this 14 counsel prior to the filing of this joint 15 statement; is that right, you are not going to 16 allow us to do that? 17 A. I think I have already answered that 18 question many times before, sir. 19 Q. And the answer is no; right? 20 A. Characterize it as you wish. I think 21 I have given that answer to you many times. Let's 22 get on with the depo, please. 23 Q. All right. Mr. Scarff, the 24 deposition could well be done sooner than Friday 25 if you will simply answer my questions and not go 2781 1 off on nonresponsive speeches about extraneous 2 matters not related to the question. 3 Do you understand that?Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 4 A. No, Mr. Bowles, I don't understand 5 that. Because we both know exactly why you are 6 here. And if you want to toy with this and you 7 have nothing better to do with your time, I am 8 prepared to stay here for another month. 9 Q. You mean Friday? 10 A. Definitely. I am committed to this. 11 I mean, I was committed to a week and a half, but 12 as a result of your poor conduct and behavior 13 during this entire proceeding, I am committed to 14 this. 15 Q. All right. What is your motion going 16 to say then? 17 A. Read it tomorrow, sir. Why would I 18 put it in writing if I needed to tell you what it 19 said? You can read it tomorrow. 20 Q. Let's go to Exhibit-71. Look at the 21 original, Mr. Scarff, so we have no mistake. 22 A. Mr. Bowles, allow me the time to find 23 it first before you answer your question, please. 24 I know you are in a hurry. 25 Q. The court reporter may have set it 2782 1 aside for you there. 2 A. I don't recall the court reporter 3 setting anything aside for me, sir. 4 Q. Those are the originals you just 5 plopped on the floor. 6 A. You said Exhibit-71? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Let me pull Exhibit-71 here. Okay. 9 Q. These appear to be receipts for 10 services paid for; is that right? 11 A. They don't appear, they are receipts 12 paid for services by the Church of Scientology, 13 Mission of Davis. 14 Q. What's the difference between the 15 Mission of Davis and the Celebrity Center of 16 Portland? 17 A. The Mission of Davis is the 18 ecclesiastical entity of the Church of 19 Scientology. The Celebrity Center is where one 20 takes courses and introduced to various courses. 21 Q. Are they different entities? 22 A. On paper I am sure they are different 23 entities, but they are all part of the Church of 24 Scientology International as you well know. 25 Q. What makes you think they are 2783 1 different entities on paper? 2 A. Excuse me? 3 Q. What makes you so sure they are 4 difference entities on paper? 5 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; mischaracterizesÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 6 the testimony. 7 THE WITNESS: I seem to recall that 8 different -- they are trademarks and each one has 9 a different trademark. I could be wrong. 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. Have you researched the area? 12 A. Excuse me? 13 Q. Have you researched the area? 14 A. I don't think it takes a lot of 15 research if they are in fact two different 16 entities, why they are named differently and why 17 they are in two separate buildings. 18 Q. What building is the Mission of Davis 19 in? 20 A. The Mission of Davis is at 701 21 Southeast Salmon. The Celebrity Center in 22 Portland is connected to it in another office of 23 what used to be a beauty salon and what is now 24 next to a restaurant. But they are two separate 25 buildings. Actually they are in the same building 2784 1 but two separate offices. If they are one in the 2 same, I don't see why they need to separate 3 offices and they have two different titles. 4 Q. So that's your research? Have you 5 done any corporate research to make your 6 statement? 7 A. I don't know what you mean by 8 "corporate research." 9 Q. Have you gone to the Secretary of 10 state for the State of Oregon to see whether or 11 not in fact these are separate entities or not? 12 A. No. Had no reason to. 13 Q. So the state of your research is 14 looking where buildings are located and signs out 15 front? 16 A. No. I was always told the Mission of 17 Davis, the reason, and it was explained to me by 18 John Carmichael, is the mission is the religious 19 entity of the Church of Scientology. It's where 20 one goes to when they first have contact with the 21 Church of Scientology and where one is told about 22 the spiritual and religious nature of Scientology 23 and where the introductory courses are explained 24 and taken. 25 And the Celebrity Center acts as a 2785 1 place where you take higher level courses than you 2 do in the Mission of Davis. And the Celebrity 3 Center is not considered a religious entity of the 4 church. It's like an instruction or educational 5 entity of the church. 6 Q. This is according to Mr. Carmichael? 7 A. Mr. Carmichael. Gwen Mayfield.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 8 Angie Mann. 9 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-71. 10 A. I am looking at it. 11 Q. The upper left corner has what 12 appears to be a copy of an invoice numbered 7148, 13 date 25 May '92. Whose handwriting is that? 14 A. Murray Marvin. It's signed Murray 15 Marvin. 16 Q. Did you see him fill it out? 17 A. I believe Murray Marvin did fill this 18 out, yeah. 19 Q. The question is, did you see him fill 20 it out? 21 A. And my answer is I believe Murray 22 Marvin filled this out, yes. 23 Q. Did he fill it out while you were 24 watching him? 25 A. I believe so. 2786 1 Q. Did he fill it out on the 25th of May 2 '92? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. What does "No mail please" mean? 5 A. "No mail please" was indicated, it 6 was written there by Angie Mann at the directions 7 of David Butterworth who said that if any time the 8 Cult Awareness Network was ever to defend 9 themselves against these frivolous SLAPS suits 10 filed against the Cult Awareness Network under the 11 Plan 100, that in the discovery process the Cult 12 Awareness Network attorneys could invariably seek 13 records reflective of Garry Scarff's association 14 with the Church of Scientology. And that they, in 15 fact, in the discovery process could get copies of 16 all receipts of courses taken. 17 And that they simply had "No mail 18 please" because it was also the understanding that 19 mail might be stolen from members of the Cult 20 Awareness Network out of my mailbox. And so they 21 were not to have any indication that I was taking 22 courses at the Mission of Davis and that the 23 receipts were going to be retained there in a 24 secret file and that they were not to send any 25 mail to me that could be offed or taken away by 2787 1 members of the Cult Awareness Network who may want 2 to be in the position of stealing my mail. 3 Q. All right. Take a look at the other 4 receipt on the top of that page, bottom, upper 5 right corner. What does ISF stand for? 6 A. It's ISE. It's introduction to 7 Scientology ethics. 8 Q. What does that indicate then? Did 9 you buy a book?Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ10 A. It was a course. 11 Q. What does NSL stand for? 12 A. I forgot what that was. It was 13 another course that I was taking. 14 Q. How did you pay for these, upper 15 left, how did you pay this $30, if at all? 16 A. I believe it was by check. 17 Q. Okay. What bank account? 18 A. It was through Bank of America. 19 Q. What branch? 20 A. The Lloyd Center Branch. 21 Q. Did you have more than one checking 22 account at the time? 23 A. I have had -- yeah, I did. 24 Q. At the time. 25 A. Uh-huh, yes. 2788 1 Q. What other checking accounts did you 2 have at this time in May of 1992? 3 A. Checking, savings. I had a CD. 4 Q. What other checking accounts did you 5 have besides Bank of America, Lloyd Center? 6 A. That was it. 7 Q. So then you had a savings account and 8 a CD? 9 A. A CD. 10 Q. Were they all at the same branch of 11 Bank of America? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that was the Lloyd Center; 14 correct? 15 A. Lloyd Center Branch. 16 Q. Let's look at the larger invoice 17 that's photocopied sideways. Did you prepare this 18 exhibit, sir? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Who prepared it? 21 A. Joanne Charbonneau. 22 Q. She prepared this piece of paper? 23 A. Yes. I mean she signed it. 24 Q. With all these invoices on it? 25 A. No. This piece of paper here? 2789 1 Q. Yeah. 2 A. Are you talking about this exhibit? 3 I thought you meant the income invoice. 4 Q. No. 5 A. No, the exhibit I did. 6 Q. Do you have the original of each one 7 of these invoices shown? 8 A. No, sir, because the files in which 9 Gwen Mayfield gave me to copy, this was enclosed 10 in the file and it was like this when I 11 photocopied it at Kinko's.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ12 Q. Now this larger invoice, it's headed 13 "Church of Scientology Celebrity Center 14 Portland." Were these other invoices that are on 15 this same exhibit, the smaller ones, are they also 16 from the Celebrity Center at Portland? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, this larger invoice, it's got a 19 number on it of PS 1209. Who filled this out? 20 A. Joanne Charbonneau. 21 Q. So it's your testimony that this is 22 Joanne Charbonneau's handwriting? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It's not your handwriting. 25 A. No. I wouldn't have access to income 2790 1 invoices in the church, sir. 2 Q. You didn't fill this out? 3 A. No. Like I said, I don't have access 4 to income invoices in the church. 5 Q. I notice just below the income 6 invoice and a number there is a handwritten entry 7 "check # 119 PI full." 8 A. Paid in full. 9 Q. Was that a check written from your 10 Bank of America Lloyd Center Branch? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. Do you have canceled checks from that 13 checking account? 14 A. No. Because I no longer do business 15 at Bank of America. I don't have copies of 16 canceled checks anymore. Had no reason to keep 17 them. However, I am sure you can get it from the 18 bank. Because I believe banks do photocopy all 19 the check transactions. 20 Q. And it's your testimony that that's 21 Joanne Charbonneau's signature there at the bottom 22 of the page? 23 A. I have testified to that, yes. 24 Q. Did you see her fill this out in 25 front of you? 2791 1 A. No. No. I gave her a check. Gwen 2 Mayfield, I told Gwen Mayfield what I wanted to 3 do. After Gwen had told me some of the things 4 that might benefit me, I gave her the check. And 5 I was told that I would get a copy of the invoice, 6 and I did get a copy in the mail from Joanne of 7 this. 8 Q. Okay. You understand that if you 9 forged this, this is going to be fraudulent claim 10 of donations to the church? 11 A. Mr. Bowles. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, go on with yourÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ14 testimony. We know who the forgers are. I have 15 documented evidence of that, sir. Evidently you 16 don't want to refer to it, although it's in the 17 exhibits. So. Would you like me to refer to the 18 internal church document that talks about teaching 19 people how to forge documents, sir? 20 Q. Yeah, we will get to that. 21 A. I hope you do. 22 By the way, when are you going to 23 refund my money to me, sir? 24 Q. You prove that you paid it and maybe 25 we will go to the next step. 2792 1 A. What you are saying is I need to file 2 a suit against you? 3 Q. No. Let's see the canceled check. 4 Why don't you send us the canceled check that 5 shows that's not a forgery. 6 A. Tell you what. I will take it up 7 with an attorney and you may be back here again 8 defending yourself on this since you have chosen 9 not to cooperate. 10 Q. Show us a canceled check, Mr. Scarff, 11 everything will be very simple. 12 A. Will it be that simple if I show you 13 a canceled check? You are saying on record now 14 that you will refund my money to me. 15 Q. If you can prove you paid it to the 16 Church of Scientology, they have their refund 17 policies and I am sure they will be followed. 18 A. And you are guaranteeing that. 19 Q. You can ask them. I am not 20 representing the Portland church here. 21 A. You are representing the Church of 22 Scientology International. Are you now 23 guaranteeing me that you will refund my money if I 24 present a canceled check? 25 Q. No, I am not. 2793 1 A. Of course not. 2 Q. I don't remember represent the 3 Portland church. That's who you paid. 4 A. You are a liar. Liar. You just 5 can't -- 6 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 7 A. You just can't deal with the truth 8 here, Mr. Bowles. 9 Q. Let's get to the truth. 10 A. Mr. Bowles, I have been trying to get 11 to the truth, what, the 16th day, and you have 12 toyed with the system up till now. You don't want 13 the truth. You are looking for every legal dodge 14 you can get your hands on. 15 Q. 1982 to 1984, besides the fourÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ16 courses you claim to have taken at that time, did 17 you take any other services from the Church of 18 Scientology? 19 A. I went through assist processing, and 20 I was meeting with a counselor in the church. I 21 was talking to John Carmichael quite a bit about 22 personal things that were happening in my life. 23 Things that were bothering me. And that was about 24 the extent of it. 25 Q. Were those services you paid for, 2794 1 this talk to Mr. Carmichael? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What services did you pay for during 4 that period of time aside from the four courses 5 you now claim you have taken? 6 A. I had assist processing. I had some 7 auditing. At least I would say it was auditing, 8 because I was on E-meter. A piece of junk. And I 9 was told at a later date that I was being charged 10 for all of that, although it was my original 11 understanding that I was not paying for it. And 12 later I paid $6,000 to the church. 13 Q. Do you have the canceled check for 14 that? 15 A. It wasn't my checks. They were NDSL 16 checks and GSL checks. And since that is now 17 federal and I have asserted that to federal 18 officials, that is now a pending investigation. 19 Q. To what agency? 20 A. That's none of your business. I am 21 sure that when you are served with the subpoena 22 you will know what agency it is, Mr. Bowles. You 23 are going to be running. You will probably flee 24 to Mexico given the way you act in situations. 25 Q. Okay, Mr. Scarff, let's get on with 2795 1 the deposition here. 2 A. Are you having fun here, Mr. Bowles? 3 You should wear -- 4 Q. Tell us about auditing first of all. 5 What's the difference between auditing and 6 processing, Mr. Scarff? 7 A. Auditing and processing are to me the 8 same thing. The only difference between assist 9 processing, where you are sit, you are forced to 10 sit there for long periods of time while a man 11 touches you in various parts of your body saying 12 "Feel my finger." "Feel my finger." "Feel my 13 finger" over and over and over again, auditing is 14 where you sit there and you are asked questions 15 and you are expected to answer questions. And you 16 are told to consider various situations on how you 17 would deal with a particular incident. And youÔh) 0*0*0*°°ÔŒ18 have your hands on two soup can type of things and 19 it's all being recorded on a funky device referred 20 to as an E-meter which the Church of Scientology 21 says has all the credibility in the world and we 22 all know it's a piece of junk. It has no 23 relevance whatsoever. 24 Q. Did you think it was a piece of junk 25 then? 2796 1 A. I didn't even know what it was at the 2 time. I thought at the time it was like a lie 3 detector, but I was told it records electrical 4 impulses in the body and it helps to register 5 things. And I was giving a lot of personal 6 information. I discussed family relationships. I 7 discussed sexual relationships, and of course, I 8 was told all of these things would be held 9 confidential. 10 Q. Let's talk about this so-called 11 processing that you are now describing. This is 12 the touching? 13 A. Assist processing. 14 Q. Assist processing. How did that 15 work? Did you have your eyes open at the time? 16 A. Yes, I had my eyes opened. I was 17 told to stare at a black dot that had been put on 18 the wall. It's a form of hypnosis, Mr. Bowles. 19 Q. Have you ever been hypnotized before, 20 Mr. Scarff? 21 A. Yes, I believe I have. 22 Q. Ever been hypnotized by a 23 psychologist? 24 A. Not that I can recall. 25 Q. You might have but you can't recall? 2797 1 A. Well, Mr. Bowles, during the time 2 that I was in Scientology, I felt that I underwent 3 all kinds of hypnosis, but I didn't realize it at 4 the time. 5 Q. So you had your eyes open and you 6 were looking at a black dot? 7 A. A black dot on the wall. I was told 8 not to sway. I was not to move. I was not to 9 move my hands. I was to simply stare at that 10 black dot for hours on end while a person touched 11 me. You are getting off on this. Are you -- 12 Q. You are just lying because it doesn't 13 work this way. 14 A. Are you getting horny here, 15 Mr. Bowles? Is this making you horny? 16 Q. It's not making me horny. Let's get 17 on with the deposition. 18 A. Don't interrupt me when I have an 19 answer, Mr. Bowles. Grow up and act your age,Ôh) 0*0*0*°°ÔŒ20 sir. I have already said on record that in assist 21 processing not only was I touched on my neck, my 22 shoulder, my head, hands went down my pants. They 23 went up my shirt. You know what it is. You know 24 how the game is played so don't sit there like a 25 little angel and lie. How dare you? 2798 1 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 2 A. You are a sick pervert. 3 Q. Are you a homosexual, Mr. Scarff? 4 A. Are you, Mr. Bowles? Are you 5 attracted to me? You keep winking. Are you 6 attracted to me? Do you get off on me, 7 Mr. Bowles. 8 Q. Are you a homosexual, yes or no? 9 A. Are you, Mr. Bowles, yes or no? 10 Q. I am not going to answer your 11 question. 12 A. I am not going to answer your 13 question. I consider that personal. That's none 14 of your damn business. 15 Q. Do you claim you were homosexually 16 assaulted in this so-called assist processing that 17 you went through? 18 A. I have never claimed that I was 19 homosexually assaulted during assist processing. 20 Q. Let's take a look at your testimony. 21 We will get this straightened out. All right. I 22 want you to read from Page 903, Line 21 to Line 1 23 of Page 905. 24 A. One second, please. What numbers 25 were they? 2799 1 MR. BOWLES: Let me see it again, Bob. 2 MR. CALHOUN: 903, 21 to 905, 1. 3 MR. BOWLES: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: I still didn't hear you, sir. 5 903 what number? 6 MR. CALHOUN: 21. 7 THE WITNESS: To what? 8 MR. CALHOUN: 905, 1. 9 THE WITNESS: "Q. And did the 10 touching of the private areas 11 occur on more than one 12 occasion? 13 "A. Yes. Two or 14 three times that I can recall 15 being touched. There was one 16 physical problem that I had. It 17 was as a result of those 18 sessions, and I didn't 19 understand, because they told me 20 that sometimes when you are 21 dealing with things in a veryÔh) 0*0*0*°°ÔŒ22 mental sense that sometimes 23 physical manifestations occur, 24 and they told me that or the 25 coach told me that I had, for 2800 1 example, if you had pain through 2 various parts of the body, that 3 a person can do touch processes 4 on you and touch you in the 5 neck, for example, and all that 6 pain would leave the various 7 parts and become very 8 centralized in the neck. And 9 sometimes a touch would bring 10 about a boil or a red scar, and 11 it would be all centralized in 12 the neck. And through the touch 13 processing you could eventually 14 eradicate that focal point of 15 pain. And that manifestation of 16 an injury in that one place. 17 But that too was a good sign 18 because if your body was racked 19 in pain and through touch 20 processing you were able to 21 bring all that pain to one focal 22 point, then you wouldn't have to 23 go over the entire body. You 24 could simply focus on one 25 point. 2801 1 "And one physical 2 manifestation that I had coming 3 out of those sessions was anal 4 bleeding and hemorrhoids. And I 5 even went to the health care 6 facility at Portland State 7 University and was treated for 8 it." 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. Thank you. So, are you claiming by 11 that testimony that you were homosexually 12 assaulted in assist processing? 13 A. I am claiming, Mr. Bowles, that I 14 believe that I was assaulted during that 15 processing, but I can't prove it. 16 Q. When was the first time you had anal 17 sex, Mr. Scarff? 18 A. Mr. Bowles, that's none of your damn 19 business. 20 Q. Was it prior to this claimed 21 session? 22 A. That is none of your business, 23 Mr. Bowles. That is personal information. YouÔh) 0*0*0*°°ÔŒ24 know it. So let's get on to something that's 25 relevant to this deposition, sir. 2802 1 Q. Were you engaging in anal sex in 1982 2 prior to this session -- 3 A. Mr. Bowles -- 4 Q. -- that you claim occurred? 5 A. -- as the judge has ruled, what is 6 good for the goose is good for the gander. Why 7 don't we talk about your infidelity with Rona. 8 Why don't we talk about you cheat on your wife. 9 Does Rona know that you play around in the 10 office? Do we want to get this on record that you 11 cheat around in the office and you cheat on your 12 wife, sir. That is well known within the OSA that 13 you do that. Do we get on record your sexual 14 experiences? What is good for the goose is good 15 for the gander. The judge has already ruled on 16 that sir. If you are going to talk about it, why 17 don't you tell me about Rona. 18 Here you are, Mr. Calhoun. 19 Q. So you are refusing to answer any 20 questions about your homosexual experiences, 21 Mr. Scarff? 22 A. Yes, I am. Unless you are willing to 23 discuss your sexual life with your wife and other 24 women that you run around with. 25 Q. Those are your conditions? 2803 1 A. So you are admitting now on record 2 that you do that? 3 Q. No. Those are your conditions? If I 4 talk about my sex life, you will talk about 5 yours? 6 A. No, Mr. Bowles, because you have 7 already said that you will not touch on the 8 infidelity that you have had with your wife on 9 record. You are not going to discuss that and 10 it's none of my business. Well, in retrospect, my 11 sexual life is none of your business. So move on. 12 Q. All right. Afraid to say you are 13 going to be mistaken on that, Mr. Scarff. If you 14 claim that the church is somehow involved in 15 assaulting you homosexually. 16 A. I never said that, Mr. Bowles, that's 17 your characterization of it. 18 Q. Are you going to tell us now that you 19 are withdrawing that claim? 20 A. No, not on the all. What I have 21 claimed, Mr. Bowles, and you are misrepresenting 22 the testimony here. Is that I was told that 23 certain mental things produce physical 24 manifestations. And when I came out of a session, 25 I had physical manifestations which are in theÔh) 0*0*0*°°ÔŒ2804 1 record now, and quite frankly, I have a belief of 2 what happened, but I can't prove it. That's my 3 claim, sir. 4 Q. You believe you were homosexually 5 assaulted; is that right? 6 A. Yes, I believe that. 7 Q. That's because of the physical 8 symptoms you claim happened after the session; is 9 that right? 10 A. I believe that, sir, yes. 11 Q. Just to make the record clear. 12 What other banks have you done business with since 13 1980? 14 A. I think I am going to take a break, 15 Mr. Bowles, and talk to my counsel about whether 16 that is information you are privy to. Because I 17 think that's personal information, sir. So 18 instead of doing that, instead of disrupting this 19 deposition, I am simply going to assert privacy 20 here. And if you want to go to court and the 21 court rules that I need to give you that 22 information, then I will do it. But I don't want 23 to interrupt the deposition here and waste your 24 time. So I am going to assert the privacy 25 privilege. Say that's none of your business. If 2805 1 the judge rules differently, then we will take it 2 from there. 3 Q. Okay. So you are refusing to answer 4 the questions at this time; is that right? 5 A. Until the judge rules otherwise, 6 yes. 7 Q. Okay. How much did auditing cost in 8 1982? 9 A. They quoted me $100 an hour. I also 10 was quoted $125 an hour. But I don't recall when 11 it changed to $125 an hour. 12 Q. How much were you paying? 13 A. I wasn't paying anything. I was told 14 one of two things. One, that the assist 15 processing I was not going to be charged for 16 because they wanted to help me. They told me it 17 was a therapy relationship. 18 And, two, I was told that everyone 19 goes on credit if they can't find the money for it 20 right now or they go on staff and they pay for it 21 through that way. Through a work study type of 22 relationship. So I wasn't paying anything that I 23 recall until 1983 when I turned over NDSL and GSL 24 checks. 25 Q. Do you have records of these NDSL and 2806 1 GSL checks?Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 2 A. No, sir. But as I have said before, 3 there is a government agency that does have them 4 and that is pending right now in an 5 investigation. 6 Q. So you have no files with regard to 7 any student loan -- 8 A. It's pending, Mr. Bowles. 9 Q. Let me finish the question. You have 10 no files in your possession regarding any student 11 loans between the years of 1979 and 1985? 12 A. I have copies of contracts that I 13 have signed with Portland State University. And 14 my attorney also has copies of that stuff. And 15 there is a government agency which has received 16 copies of everything that I have and there is a 17 pending investigation with that agency right now 18 with regards to the Church of Scientology which I 19 found out has been pending for quite some time 20 even prior to the time that I contacted them. So 21 this stuff will eventually come out and you will 22 be in handcuffs and we will see what happens from 23 there. 24 Q. Mr. Scarff, are you done with that 25 answer now? 2807 1 A. Are you getting your jollies now? 2 Q. Well, let's go on to the next 3 question. 4 Ever lied to church representatives, 5 Mr. Scarff? 6 A. When? 7 Q. Ever. Church of Scientology 8 representatives, ever lied to them? 9 A. Not that I can recall. 10 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-50. 11 Do you have the original of that. 12 THE REPORTER: Down there. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. This is the notes, I guess, on your 15 lawsuit. Was this written after this first draft 16 that you described that Randy Spencer supposedly 17 drafted? 18 A. I don't know. Let me look at the 19 lawsuit. What exhibit is the lawsuit? Do I need 20 to find it? 21 Q. 16. 22 A. I believe at the time that I wrote 23 this it was after, one, the first or the second 24 draft of the lawsuit, yes. 25 Q. Which one was it, the first or the 2808 1 second? 2 A. I don't recall. I believe it was 3 after the first one because David ButterworthÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 4 asked me for my recommendations on how to make the 5 lawsuit more appropriate to the jurisdiction of 6 Oregon where it could be tried successfully in 7 Oregon courts versus the California courts. 8 Q. Okay. So your prior testimony was 9 that the first draft was too similar to other 10 suits and you wanted something or that the 11 decision was to customize it to Oregon. Is that a 12 fair statement? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is there anything in this Exhibit-50 15 that's false? By the way, this is in your 16 handwriting, isn't it? 17 A. This is my handwriting. 18 Q. You prepared this document? 19 A. Yes. Except for the telephone 20 numbers on top. I didn't do that. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I don't know whose phone numbers 23 those are. 24 Well, the basis of a lot of 25 information in this is untrue. But I guess I 2809 1 don't know what you are asking me, because I was 2 in this scheme along with you, Mr. Bowles, and the 3 OSA in filing this SLAPS suit which had no merit 4 whatsoever against the Cult Awareness Network. So 5 what are you asking me, sir? 6 Q. What in this document is false? 7 A. Well, I think Paragraph 3 reflects a 8 false statement in the fact that we are trying to 9 allege Cynthia Kisser, that Cynthia Kisser should 10 be added as a defendant in the lawsuit. That it 11 had some bearing or some merit to file a lawsuit 12 with Cynthia Kisser involved. And it doesn't 13 because -- never mind. 14 Q. What else is false? 15 A. Well, Paragraph 4 is definitely 16 false. And this is a subject from a conversation 17 I had with David Butterworth who claimed that he 18 had evidence that Wayne Barber was a crook and 19 that he had laundered money. 20 And I state right here that "Pursuant 21 to the lawsuit, an investigation needs to be made 22 in retrieving copies of the charter of the 23 nonprofit 'child help' organization established 24 by the Greeks and Wayne Barber with which they 25 laundered money for the behalf of the Positive 2810 1 Action Center." That's false. To my knowledge. 2 Now, Mr. Butterworth claims that he 3 has got evidence that Wayne Barber has laundered 4 money, and I don't know whether he has evidence of 5 that or not but that's what he claims.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 6 Q. All right. So you wrote this without 7 any evidence of that; right? 8 A. I wrote this based upon the content 9 of a conversation that I had with a Church of 10 Scientology official whom you work with, 11 Mr. Bowles. You work with David Butterworth so 12 you would know whether this is true or not. 13 Mr. Bowles, you know as well as I do 14 that you were involved in all of this. And that 15 you know the relationship you have with David 16 Butterworth and you also know, Mr. Bowles, the 17 relationship I had with David Butterworth. 18 David Butterworth claims to have 19 evidence about Wayne Barber something that I knew 20 nothing about. The only thing that I knew about 21 Wayne Barber was the fact that a book was written 22 titled "A Secret Agenda" about the Nixon 23 administration and Watergate break-ins. And Wayne 24 Barber was footnoted in the book as being some 25 kind of detective in the Watergate investigation. 2811 1 Mr. Butterworth claimed to have more evidence 2 linking Wayne Barber to money laundering. 3 So this paragraph is reflective of 4 the conversation that I had with a gentleman that 5 you work with, Mr. Bowles. 6 Q. What else is false in here? 7 A. Well, I think 5 reflects a falsity in 8 that we should involve individuals in a lawsuit 9 which have no reason for being in the lawsuit. In 10 fact, I will read this sentence here. "In doing 11 so, we should concentrate this in such a way that 12 these individuals would be 'pressed' to defend 13 themselves which would be a costly maneuver for 14 the Greeks and their cohorts." 15 And again, that simply reflects what 16 is already on the record with the fact that 17 Timothy Bowles, Ken Moxon and the other attorneys 18 for Bowles & Moxon have filed all these frivolous, 19 bad faith lawsuits in order to financially ruin 20 the people that they are attacking. It's simply a 21 means to attack someone financially, 22 psychologically and try to ruin them. And this 23 simply addresses that. 24 And as far as in here about the $1 25 million liability policy that the Greeks have, I 2812 1 didn't know about that. Eugene Ingram told me 2 that he was able to investigate insurance 3 companies that represent both the Greeks and 4 represent the Cult Awareness Network. And he knew 5 what policies they had and what it covered. And 6 so this was a means by which you, Mr. Bowles, 7 could sue these individuals and swim around theseÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ 8 policies in order to attack them on a personal 9 level, make them personally responsible for 10 damages. 11 Q. Let's go to the fifth page. 12 A. You don't want to address the rest of 13 this, sir? 14 Q. There are lots of other falsities in 15 there; is that right, Mr. Scarff? 16 A. Reflective on the active 17 investigation that I was involved in with both you 18 and Mr. Butterworth. Yes, there are a lot of 19 falsities here. 20 Q. So the point is -- 21 A. The point is you don't want to 22 address -- 23 Q. Let me ask you a question. This 24 document is loaded with falsehoods, isn't it? 25 A. Well, no. It's not loaded with 2813 1 falsehoods. It's loaded with reflections of 2 statements that had been made to me by your law 3 firm and David Butterworth. And this is simply -- 4 this isn't loaded with falsehoods. It's simply a 5 means by which we plan to go after somebody. So 6 it's two different things. 7 For example, the third page refers to 8 Wayne Barber's relationship with Senator Robert 9 and Elizabeth Dole. Well, that to my knowledge is 10 true. Anne Greek told me that. So that's not a 11 falsehood. 12 Q. Okay. There are false statements in 13 here, aren't there? Yes or no, are there false 14 statements in this exhibit or not? 15 A. Can you show some patience and let me 16 read the exhibit so I can give you a truthful 17 statement. 18 Q. Have you already testified there are 19 false statements in here, Mr. Scarff? 20 A. Let me read the statement then we 21 will get on with it. 22 Q. We will withdraw that statement and 23 get on with the next one. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Let's go to the Page No. 5. Would 2814 1 you read from the star where it says 8 encircled 2 down to the word "character assassination." 3 A. I'm sorry, say that again. 4 Q. Page 5, you are on Page 7. 5 A. I am counting pages here. Okay. 6 Q. There is a circled eight and read 7 from that to the words "character assassination," 8 please. 9 A. "No. 8. We, or rather 'I,'Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ10 can sue the Greeks for 11 intentional infliction of 12 emotional distress through 13 comments made through the media 14 and comments made to prospective 15 employers which resulted in 16 slander and character 17 assassination." 18 Q. Okay. Is that a false assertion, 19 Mr. Scarff? 20 A. I think it's true and false. 21 Q. What's false about it? 22 A. Certainly I was distressed with the 23 fact that the Greeks had spoken to the 24 archdiocese, but the fact that it has intentional 25 infliction of emotional distress underlined, these 2815 1 were reflective of conversations I had with not 2 only Ken Moxon, Aron Mason, David Butterworth, 3 Eugene Ingram and I believe even you, sir, 4 Mr. Bowles, that in the State of Oregon, because I 5 didn't know this, this is a legal term that was 6 given to me, in the State of Oregon one can sue 7 someone for intentional infliction of emotional 8 distress. It's a legal terminology. I am not a 9 lawyer so I wouldn't have known this. And that in 10 the State of Oregon, you can prosecute someone 11 under that what you call ruling or something. Or 12 clause. 13 And where it says, "Intentional 14 infliction" was based upon a conversation I had 15 with various members of the Church of 16 Scientology. 17 The basis of this paragraph is 18 related to the fact that I was upset with the 19 Greeks for communicating with the archdiocese of 20 Oregon about my relationship to the Church of 21 Scientology which resulted in my being dismissed 22 as a candidate to the Catholic priesthood. 23 Where it talks about slander and 24 character assassination, these are legal terms 25 that only a lawyer or someone that works in the 2816 1 legal profession would know about. I didn't know 2 anything about this stuff. I didn't know where 3 any of this could hold up. The only way I could 4 have gotten this information and known that we 5 could use it was the fact that I had 6 conversations, and I can support this with my 7 numerous telephone bills which shows the numerous 8 phone calls I made to Bowles & Moxon, that it was 9 supported by you, sir, and your law firm. 10 Q. And you claim that you made phone 11 calls to me that show up on those bills; is thatÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ12 right? 13 A. I have said on record already, 14 Mr. Bowles, that telephone records do not show, as 15 you well know, the names of individuals you have 16 called. It simply refers to the phone numbers 17 that you have called. 18 Q. Which numbers did you call to talk to 19 me? 20 A. Excuse me? 21 Q. Which numbers did you call to talk to 22 me? 23 A. Let me pull the exhibit, sir. Do you 24 know it or do I need to look through everything? 25 Q. Exhibit-86. 2817 1 A. 86, personal contacts? 2 Q. 86 is the Lynn Garrett phone bill. 3 A. Actually, I would like to refer to 4 the exhibit that says personal contacts on it. It 5 has personal contacts at the top. 6 Q. That is the first page of your 7 Exhibit-4. 8 A. I don't have Exhibit-4. Right in the 9 top right-hand corner it says Area Code (213) 10 661-4030. And when I was faxing things back and 11 forth in communications with Bowles & Moxon, I 12 used the fax number (213) 662-6419. 13 Q. Okay. And let's go to Exhibit-86. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Are there phone calls on here which 16 you claim you made to me? 17 A. Not on this specific phone bill, no. 18 It has the Office of Special Affairs, which I 19 called three times, which on the second page, 20 Office of Special Affairs I called one, two, 21 three, four, five times. Office of Special 22 Affairs on the third page I called one, two, 23 three, four, five, six, seven times. 24 And Mr. Bowles, it's already been 25 documented the fact that you are a member of the 2818 1 OSA in which I called seven times, at least seven 2 times this month. And this is only one phone 3 bill. I am now in the process of getting all my 4 phone bills for the last two years, which will 5 show in great detail the numerous phone calls 6 which were made to both the OSA in Los Angeles, 7 the OSA in various parts of the country and also 8 Bowles & Moxon. And I simply say you are hard 9 pressed to dispute something that's documented on 10 telephone bills, sir. 11 Q. Okay. So you claim you talked to me 12 about this complaint in which months of the year? 13 A. I believe it was December, January ofÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ14 '92 and February of '92, if I am not mistaken, 15 because it was during that time, Mr. Bowles, that 16 you were communicating with Mike Gordon who you 17 used to work with, according to Gwen Mayfield, and 18 that Gwen was actively trying to find an attorney 19 in the State of Oregon that would work with you in 20 bringing this lawsuit to the courts. The problem 21 that we had is that most attorneys didn't want to 22 touch something that had anything to do with the 23 Church of Scientology given the extremely poor 24 reputation Scientology has in the court system. 25 And so she had a real difficult time doing that. 2819 1 But. 2 Q. So your answer is you talked to me in 3 December of '91, January and February of '92; is 4 that right? 5 A. That's what I believe, yes. 6 Q. Let's go to Page 10 of Exhibit-50. 7 By the way, you talked to me at my office in 8 Los Angeles; is that right? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. That's what your phone bill is going 11 to show? 12 A. The phone bill is going to show that 13 I called Bowles & Moxon in Los Angeles. But I 14 notice that your phone, you have changed your 15 phone numbers to try to hide something. 16 Q. Let's go to Page 10. Take a look at 17 the number that's circled 14. Could you read from 18 that point to the next page where it says "once 19 and for all" at the top? 20 A. I'm sorry, I am missing you. 21 Q. Start at the bottom of Page 10. It 22 says, "Once all the information," read from that 23 to the end of that passage which says, "once and 24 for all." 25 A. Okay. "No. 14. Once all 2820 1 the information is disseminated 2 and the complaint drafted, you 3 can fax it to Gwen, and I will 4 call you back on it and make 5 whatever arrangement are 6 necessary to file it. We can 7 later negotiate on distribution 8 of settlement proceeds over 9 legal contacts are written up. 10 Be assured that I don't see this 11 as a get rich scheme. I am 12 excited, however, to 13 detrimentally ditch these 14 buttwipes once and for all." 15 Q. Is there any passage of that that'sÔh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ16 false? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Let's go to the first page. 19 A. I would like to take a break. It's 20 been over 45 minutes. 21 Q. Let's try to make the break short and 22 we can get through faster. 23 A. Mr. Bowles, I will take the break as 24 soon as I can. But you are not in the position of 25 telling me how long to take the break. 2821 1 Q. Let's try to limit it to ten 2 minutes. 3 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 4 The time is 11:09 A.M. 5 (Recess taken.) 6 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 7 The time is 11:37 A.M. 8 BY MR. BOWLES: 9 Q. By my watch that took almost a half 10 hour. Is there any particular reason it took half 11 hour for the break? 12 A. Yes, Counsel. With all due respect 13 you are in no position to tell me how long I can 14 speak with counsel or not. So let's move on. 15 Q. Were you speaking with your counsel 16 or -- 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Or were you speaking with counsel for 19 Dr. Geertz? 20 A. I have answered the question. Let's 21 move on, sir. 22 Q. Were you speaking with counsel for 23 Dr. Geertz along with your own counsel? 24 A. No, I wasn't. But you can 25 mischaracterize it all you want. You have done so 2822 1 in great depth already. 2 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 3 Let's go to Exhibit-50 again. First 4 page of that exhibit. After the word "Dave," 5 would you please read that paragraph. 6 A. "Per my meeting with 7 Portland attorney, Dave Urman, a 8 friend from my days at Portland 9 State University I make the 10 following recommendations for 11 drafting a lawsuit." 12 Q. Did you draft this lawsuit after 13 meeting with David Urman? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Is there anything false about the 16 first paragraph that you just read? 17 A. Yes.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ18 Q. The first paragraph you just read, 19 sir. 20 A. The first paragraph, no. 21 Q. You mentioned earlier about this 22 auditing with an E-meter. What does E-meter stand 23 for? 24 A. E-meter is electro something meter. 25 I don't have the full name for it. 2823 1 Q. Electro something meter. 2 A. I want to say ergo something meter, 3 but -- I can't tell you what it is. 4 Q. Okay. So you claim to have been in 5 counseling sessions with this E-meter; is that 6 right? 7 A. I have had counseling sessions with 8 it. I have even since leaving Scientology and 9 going over my testimony with various ex-members of 10 the Church of Scientology have even played with 11 the E-meter after leaving Scientology. And I have 12 had access to several E-meters in which I have 13 showed investigators involved in criminal 14 investigations exactly what it is and what they 15 are. Particularly in reference to one of the 16 E-meters called the Mark Super No. 6, I believe. 17 And I think the general feeling was it was just a 18 piece of garbage. 19 Q. Okay. Who are these ex-members you 20 discussed this E-meter with? 21 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. The 22 record speaks for itself. 23 Q. You are refusing to answer that 24 question? 25 A. Yes. Privacy. 2824 1 Q. How many were there? 2 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 3 Speaks for the record. The record speaks for 4 itself. 5 Q. You are refusing to answer that 6 question? 7 A. Yes, sir, I am. It's private. 8 Q. So describe to me how this worked 9 when you were in a session with the so-called 10 E-meter. 11 A. I sat there with an E-meter. I held 12 two soup can-like things. They were silver. They 13 are attached to this lie detector similar device. 14 And they asked me questions about my family. 15 Q. Who is they? 16 A. The auditors. 17 Q. Was there more than one at the same 18 time? 19 A. Yes.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ20 Q. How many were there? 21 A. One. 22 Q. I asked you if there were more than 23 one. You said yes. Was there more than one or 24 not. 25 A. Let's not misrepresent the testimony, 2825 1 Mr. Bowles. I said there is one. Let's move on 2 with it. 3 Q. Where was -- 4 A. You are supposed to ask questions not 5 intimate witnesses, sir. 6 Q. I am trying to get your testimony 7 straight. Where was the counselor sitting? 8 A. Right next to me, sir, facing me. 9 Q. Right next to you facing you. Was 10 this person across the table or was the person 11 next to you? 12 A. It was a table. The E-meter was 13 sitting right here. I sat right here and the 14 coach sat right there looking at me, asking me 15 questions. And I would answer questions. And she 16 would write down little notes based upon the 17 little finger that was moving on this piece of 18 garbage you call an accredited E-meter. And they 19 would ask me how would you have dealt with that 20 situation better? Let's take, for example, you 21 did this to your mother at the time. How would 22 you have reacted then? And there was all kinds of 23 hypothesis thrown at me about how to deal with 24 particular situations and to imagine myself in 25 various situations and how I deal with it. And it 2826 1 was supposed to pull up the engrams by the little 2 E-meter that was flashing about. Whatever 3 bothered me. 4 Q. Were you watching the needle? 5 A. No, sir. I couldn't. The needle was 6 being observed by the coach. 7 Q. How do you know what it was doing? 8 A. I don't know. But I know how an 9 E-meter works. I have had access to it after 10 leaving Scientology. 11 Q. Were you told how it worked then? 12 A. I was told how it works. I was told 13 that it registers mental engrams. That it 14 registers conflicts in my mental state; that it 15 points out things that haven't been addressed yet 16 and that through this E-meter I would be able to 17 become clear of all my problems. 18 Q. So you have a table. And you have 19 one person sitting at one side and you are sitting 20 on the other; is that right? 21 A. Sir.Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 23 testimony. 24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. It's been 25 asked and answered. 2827 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. You are sitting opposite the table of 3 this person; is that right? 4 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 5 testimony. 6 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. I am not 7 refusing anything. I have already answered your 8 question. 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. Are you refusing to answer the 11 question whether you were opposite the table with 12 this person? 13 A. You asked it already and I answered 14 it. 15 Q. And this person was referred to as 16 the coach; is that right? 17 A. I refer to it as my coach, yes. 18 Q. How did the church refer to that 19 person? 20 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 21 speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: As an auditor. 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. How did that person refer to her or 25 himself? 2828 1 A. As an auditor. 2 Q. What else was on the table, if 3 anything, besides the E-meter? 4 A. Nothing. Nothing. 5 Q. So this person is just sitting there 6 operating this meter and then you were opposite 7 with these cans; is that what right happened? 8 A. As I said before, I had my hands on 9 two soup cans -- two things that looked like soup 10 cans. There was an auditor there with a note pad 11 in her lap and she was writing things down based 12 on what she saw on the E-meter. And she asked me 13 questions and she, I saw her scribbling things 14 down on the pad which didn't make a lot of sense 15 to me but she said it made sense to her. 16 Q. Was there anything else on the table 17 besides the meter? 18 A. Not that I can recall, no. 19 Q. You are certain about that? 20 A. I have answered the question. 21 Q. Now, you described in your direct 22 testimony this supposed procedure for TR 23 bullbaiting. You remember that?Ôh)0*0*0*°°ÔŒ24 A. Yes. In fact, I can refer to it in 25 the exhibit, too. 2829 1 Q. When you were being bullbaited, was 2 there somebody in front of you? 3 A. There was someone in front of me, the 4 same person was a side of me, the person was 5 behind me. 6 Q. Did you say inside of me? 7 A. Aside. Aside. 8 Q. I'm sorry. 9 A. You need glasses and hear. 10 Q. I didn't hear you. 11 A. I know you didn't. Go ahead. I 12 answered your question. 13 Q. So this person was all over the 14 place; is that right? 15 A. This person was behind me yelling 16 things. This person was aside of me and the 17 person was in front of me. And the entire time I 18 was staring at the wall. And I was told not to 19 react. 20 In fact, at one point this person sat 21 down, she had her knees touching my knees and I 22 was told to rest and to stare right at her and not 23 flinch, not flinch at all no matter what she did, 24 no matter what Tim Bowles has done during this 25 entire deposition like staring at people. Don't 2830 1 let it bother you. Just focus in like I am doing 2 now, sir. And not let it bother you. 3 Q. You are looking at a spot on the wall 4 then? 5 A. Not only on the wall but also as I am 6 doing right now, Mr. Bowles. I am staring right 7 at you. I am looking right through your eyes, 8 sir. I am to remain focused and not to be 9 distracted by my external surroundings, to be 10 yelled, at to be cussed at, to be touched. Not 11 to -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I mean -- 14 Q. Fine. Was there any spot on the 15 wall? Was there like a picture on the wall or 16 some object you needed to look at? 17 A. No. They took a black pen just like 18 yours, sir, and they put a dot on the wall. 19 Q. Were you in a course room with other 20 people there? 21 A. No, it was private. 22 Q. Just you and this other person? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And that's how they were doing that? 25 That was the procedure?Ôh) ================================================================= If this is a copyrighted work, you are acknowledging by receipt of this document from FACTNet that on the basis of reasonable investigation, you have not been to obtain a copy elsewhere at a fair price, and that you are and will abide by the following copyright warning. WARNING CONCERNING COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS: The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photo copies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified by law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be "used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research." 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