------------------------------------------------------------------- F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. (Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network, Incorporated) a non-profit computer bulletin board and electronic library 601 16th St. #C-217 Golden, Colorado 80401 USA BBS 303 530-1942 FAX 303 530-2950 Office 303 473-0111 This document is part of an electronic lending library and preservational electronic archive. F.A.C.T.Net does not sell documents, it only lends them according to the terms of your library cardholder agreement with F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. ===================================================================== 2988 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 ------------------------------ 5 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY ) 6 INTERNATIONAL, a California ) 7 non-profit religious ) 8 organization, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 vs. )No. 93-3843-HLH(Tx) 11 STEVEN FISHMAN and UWE GEERTZ,)VOLUME XVII 12 Defendants. ) 13 ------------------------------ 14 15 Continued deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF, 16 at 221 North Figueroa Street, Suite 1200, 17 Los Angeles, California, commencing at 18 10:27 A.M., Wednesday, August 18, 1993, 19 before Lee Brenneman, CSR No. 5222. 20 21 22 23 24 PAGES 2988-3043 25 2989 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 5 BOWLES & MOXON 6 BY: TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ. 7 6255 Sunset Boulevard 8 Suite 2000 9 Hollywood, California 90028 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT UWE GEERTZ: 12 13 LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD 14 BY: GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 15 221 North Figueroa Street 16 Suite 1200 17 Los Angeles, California 90012 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 21 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 22 BOB BICHLER 23 24 25 2990 1 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 2 The date is August 18th, 1993. The time is 3 10:27 A.M. Beginning of Tape 1, Volume XVI in the 4 continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 5 6 GARRY L. SCARFF, 7 having been previously duly sworn, testified 8 further as follows: 9 10 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Scarff. 13 A. Good morning. 14 MR. BOWLES: Good morning, Mr. Calhoun. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Good morning, Mr. Bowles. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. Mr. Scarff, you understand you are 18 still under oath? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 At this time I am calling for a meet 21 and confer, Mr. Bowles and Mr. Calhoun. 22 Mr. Bowles, I have been informed by 23 my counsel, and I am sure you know this, that's 24 why your conduct has been the way it has 25 throughout this cross-examination, is that under 2991 1 the law and technically you remain my attorney and 2 you have never ended that relationship as my 3 attorney. And that throughout this 4 cross-examination you have asked me loads of 5 improper, argumentative questions which were 6 subject to the attorney-client privilege and which 7 you had no authority to do so. And you've 8 officially breached your professional obligations 9 to me as an attorney. This will be addressed to 10 the state Bar and the state committee on 11 discipline that disciplines attorneys for 12 breaching ethical -- 13 Q. You have a statement you are reading 14 there? 15 A. I am reading the notes I secured from 16 an attorney that I spoke with this morning. 17 And I have been informed, sir, that 18 as my attorney, of which you have never terminated 19 the relationship, you are obligated to preserve my 20 confidences. Those confidences are protected and 21 you thus far have interrogated me on substance and 22 content of what was under the attorney-client 23 privilege and you have no right doing so. You 24 have submitted documents to that effect. 25 I never recall any letter from you 2992 1 ending or withdrawing from any representation of 2 me. I have never sent you a letter discharging 3 you as my attorney. And I am also advising 4 Mr. Calhoun at this time that if any letter is 5 submitted into evidence by Mr. Bowles showing that 6 he discharged me and withdrew me as a client, that 7 it is probably a forgery because it will be 8 predated to August 18th, 1993. 9 One of the reasons, Mr. Bowles, our 10 relationship hasn't ended is that I sent you a 11 letter, and I will refer to the exhibit, 12 Exhibit-164 asking for client files that were 13 subject of our relationship as attorney-client. 14 You responded or your associate, Mr. Wiener, 15 responded. 16 I am sorry. My letter was 17 Exhibit-154 dated July 28th, 1993. 18 Mr. Wiener responded in a letter to 19 Mr. Berry dated July 28, 1993 which is 20 Exhibit-164. Thus far in this cross-examination 21 we have discussed contents of what was privileged 22 information in the attorney-client privilege. 23 Those exhibits are Nos. 16, 20, 23, 28, 30, 31, 24 32, 33, 41, 42, 44, 50, 67, 68, 70, 80, 90, 154 25 and 164. 2993 1 It is clear to me, Mr. Bowles, that 2 you have simply chosen one client over another. 3 That you have simply spitted me out and thrown me 4 away and you have decided to use every discussion 5 that we have ever had on the telephone and in 6 person in December, every content that has been 7 subject that we have discussed on the phone about 8 earlier documents, earlier conversations with 9 relationship to my family situation, personal 10 situation, and my relationship with the Greeks, 11 the Positive Action Center and the Cult Awareness 12 Network. And you advised me when you were 13 drafting the lawsuit which was to be filed on my 14 behalf, that any of that, if it ever came up, you 15 would use your authority and your abilities as an 16 attorney to deal with that. And as far as I am 17 concerned, that is all attorney-client privilege. 18 You still have my client files which 19 you refuse to return to me. When I have asked you 20 in the past to return them to me and, as the 21 cameras will reflect I am sure on videotape, you 22 responded with smirks, smiles and laughter, you 23 presented Exhibit-206 which you told me in 24 conversations with you when you were my attorney 25 didn't exist any more and here you threw it out as 2994 1 an exhibit. 2 And I am also going to ask the Court, 3 I am going to have my counsel address the Court 4 that all examination by you in this 5 cross-examination be stricken because you have 6 breached your obligations as an attorney. 7 And that's all I have to say at this 8 time. I am just saying that any further questions 9 during this cross-examination that were the 10 content of our attorney-client privilege up until 11 August 18th, 1993, I will refuse to address, I 12 will refuse to answer and I will ask the Court to 13 rule on it. And I also want to end this as of 14 August 18th, 1993 given the exceptionally 15 incredible manner in which Mr. Bowles had breached 16 his obligations as an attorney in the State of 17 California and tried to ruin a client of his 18 simply to serve the agenda of a greater client 19 that I am firing him as my attorney. 20 Q. That's it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Thank you. 23 Are you aware of any exhibits that 24 Graham Berry presented you on direct examination 25 that were not copies? 2995 1 A. I am sorry. I didn't understand your 2 question. 3 MR. BOWLES: Could you read it back. 4 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand what you 5 are asking me. He can reread it to me but I am 6 not going to understand. 7 MR. BOWLES: I will rephrase it. 8 Q. Are you aware of any exhibits that 9 Mr. Berry presented to you on direct examination 10 that were not photocopies? 11 A. That were not photocopies? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. No. 14 Q. So it is your testimony you didn't 15 spy on The Way; is that right? 16 A. I refuse to answer that with the 17 attorney-client privilege because you and I have 18 discussed that in the past when I was a client of 19 yours, Mr. Bowles. 20 Q. For the record, this obstruction is 21 perhaps going to make the rest of the 22 cross-examination impossible if that's going to be 23 your answer. 24 A. You have obstructed, sir. 25 Q. Let me say something to you, 2996 1 Mr. Scarff -- 2 A. Yes, Tim. 3 Q. You are misrepresenting the 4 occurrences of the past. And I am just not going 5 to get into the extent of the privilege. You can 6 just claim it if you want, you can litigate it. 7 But if you are now going to claim that I talked to 8 you about your entire life much less talked to you 9 at all, that's a misrepresentation. And you are 10 not going to throw that into this proceeding at 11 this point after so many days of 12 cross-examination, direct examination as an excuse 13 to obstruct this deposition any further. And if 14 you are, then there is no reason to go on with 15 it. 16 A. This is a meet and confer. 17 Q. No, it is not. This is your 18 examination. 19 A. This is a meet and confer, sir. I 20 have been advised since I do not have an attorney 21 with me, I cannot afford an attorney to be here 22 with me, that I under the law have a right to 23 represent myself and be my own attorney here, 24 sir. I have been advised of that. If you do not 25 wish to respect that, that is your business. But 2997 1 I have a right to do that. 2 I've been told also by counsel given 3 the fact that I have not had earlier 4 representation, did not know my rights, that 5 previous testimony can also be found under the 6 attorney-client privilege and can be asserted that 7 way, sir, because I've now been advised that I do 8 have that privilege and the fact that you were my 9 attorney, sir, now, if you want to deny that, 10 that's fine, but the exhibits which I have 11 asserted on record, sir, bears not only your name 12 on the documents but also bears the faxes. The 13 faxes in fact came to me from Bowles & Moxon. At 14 the top of the exhibit you will see that and it is 15 also dated from Bowles & Moxon and it shows a 16 direct relationship between me and Bowles. 17 I am also going to have the telephone 18 company in Portland, Oregon send copies of my 19 telephone bills to this law firm to show the 20 numerous phone calls made to Bowles & Moxon which 21 will also substantiate the relationship that I had 22 with Bowles & Moxon for many months. 23 And if you wish to deny that 24 privilege that it exists, fine, we will let the 25 Court rule on it. But I am asserting that 2998 1 attorney-client privilege, and any conversations 2 between October 4th of 1991 and August 18th, 1993 3 that I had with you, Mr. Bowles, I had with 4 Mr. Wiener, anyone in your law firm during that 5 time is attorney-client privilege. 6 You have never sent me a letter, sir, 7 withdrawing as my attorney. If you refer, sir, to 8 Exhibit-50, and I will pull it and I will put it 9 out, sir -- actually it is not Exhibit-50. It is 10 16. 11 Exhibit-16, sir, at the top, dated 12 January 22nd, 1992, military time 13:03 from 13 Bowles & Moxon, Page 002, complaint for damages 14 for intentional affliction of emotional distress. 15 Underneath it, "H:/CAN/Scarff No. 3. Berry Scarff 16 versus Positive Action Center. Adrian Greek, Cult 17 Awareness Network, Cynthia Kisser, Jenette Benson 18 and Kent Burtner." 19 There is in the complaint 25 20 paragraphs and then followed "Wherefor plaintiff 21 demands the following" and it lists damages, 22 monetary damages that I am seeking from each of 23 these individuals. Dated -- and then it gives 24 attorneys, John Clinton Geil, Timothy Bowles, 25 Bowles & Moxon, 625 Sunset Boulevard, Suite 2000, 2999 1 Los Angeles, California 90028, attorneys for 2 plaintiff. 3 You have yet to dispute that you have 4 been my attorney, sir. You have simply washed 5 over this complaint and ignored the content. And 6 I am saying that you as of today following my 7 terminating you as my attorney, I can claim 8 attorney-client privilege, sir, and a lot of the 9 discussions you have had with me which you have 10 done in the manner you are acting now, laughing 11 and smirking, you know what the content of those 12 discussions were. You know what you told me in 13 December would happen if I killed Ford Greene and 14 needed to run away from authorities. 15 Q. Mr. Scarff, you know you are lying. 16 I know you are lying. And you know I know you are 17 lying. So let's just get on with the deposition. 18 A. I stand by my record and what I said. 19 Q. Fine. Let's go question by question 20 and see how you can obstruct this further here. 21 I am going to have you look at 22 Exhibit-6, sir. And the first question before I 23 ask you about that is did you or did you not spy 24 on The Way International? 25 A. That was content of our conversations 3000 1 as a client to Mr. Bowles. You being my 2 attorney. I prefer not to answer that question. 3 Q. Let's turn to Exhibit-6. 4 A. I don't have Exhibit-6 yet. What 5 page? 6 Q. Page 270. 7 A. Is the meet an confer over now? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. We haven't come to an agreement. 10 Q. I don't think we have, Mr. Scarff. 11 A. I just wanted that on record, sir. 12 270? 13 Q. Yes. Starting at Line 23, I would 14 like you to read through to the next page to Line 15 20. Out loud. 16 A. I want to read it first. Thank you. 17 Mr. Bowles this is also content of what we 18 discussed under the attorney-client privilege and 19 I refuse to read it out loud, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Scarff, are you now claiming that 21 we discussed an attorney-client relationship the 22 incident regarding the Academy of Kung Fu and fair 23 game? 24 A. Yes, we have. In fact Fred King in 25 the spring of 1939 told me at the Mission of Davis 3001 1 that he knew for a fact no spying existed and that 2 I was not there to spy. And he was glad that I 3 had changed sides. 4 Q. So any questions I ask you about that 5 incident from now on you are going to claim the 6 attorney-client privilege or something like that, 7 is that it? 8 A. I will take it question by question, 9 but we have discussed Fred King in the past. We 10 have also discussed the fact that Robert Shashita, 11 who is now identified as a Guardian's Office 12 member that was present during that time that 13 threatened me, which precluded Fred King getting 14 violent with me, at which time I signed this 15 declaration under duress, you and I discussed 16 that, sir. 17 In fact you told me, sir, that that 18 document no longer existed and we discussed that 19 fully over the phone. 20 Q. That's your testimony. That's under 21 oath now; is that right? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Very good. 24 A. And I am glad you are getting a kick 25 out of this. 3002 1 Q. You are a real piece of work. 2 A. I certainly find this to be a very 3 serious matter, sir. Evidently this lawsuit and 4 particularly the way you are acting now is a big 5 joke to you, sir. 6 Q. It is not a big joke. 7 A. Causing anguish to Mr. Geertz and 8 Mr. Fishman is a big joke. 9 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 10 A. You are laughing. You are evidently 11 getting a big kick out of this, sir. I want on 12 record that I certainly don't find this process 13 enjoyable and I don't think it is funny as 14 Mr. Bowles evidently thinks it is. 15 Q. I think your behavior is going to be 16 sanctioned by the Court. So I guess we will let 17 them decide and stop debating it. 18 A. I remind Mr. Bowles that the Court is 19 not a Scientology court. It is a judicial court 20 and I think you are going to be in for some 21 surprises. 22 Q. When did the incident with the 23 Academy of Kung Fu you and Fred King take place? 24 A. 19 -- let me look at the document 25 that your church forced me to sign under duress 3003 1 which is a fraudulent document. And I can pull 2 the date from it, sir. Well, it is not dated. 3 Your officials forgot to date this fraudulent 4 document. 5 I believe it was '79 to '80, sometime 6 during that period. 7 Q. And during that time you were not 8 spying on the Church of Scientology? 9 A. I refuse to answer that question. 10 You know the answer to that. We have discussed it 11 before. You and I have discussed that before, 12 Mr. Bowles. I am not going to answer that 13 question, sir. You are breaching your obligations 14 as an attorney, sir. 15 Q. I can tell this is going to last not 16 much longer, Mr. Scarff. 17 A. That's your decision, Mr. Bowles. I 18 am prepared to stay for a long period, sir. 19 Q. What is your regard for Cynthia 20 Kisser? 21 A. What is my regard for Cynthia 22 Kisser? I don't even know Cynthia Kisser that 23 well. I don't have any hate for her. I have no 24 love for her. I respect her for what she is 25 doing. I respect her even more that she has been 3004 1 able to stand above all the fraudulent conduct 2 that has been heaped upon her by the Church of 3 Scientology. And the fact that she has been able 4 to stand it all and not go, in what Church of 5 Scientology has labeled make Cynthia Kisser go 6 insane, that she hasn't gone insane, has been able 7 to stand boldly in the face of all that garbage, 8 that I highly respect this woman. But I don't 9 know her personally. 10 Q. Does she take a hard stand against 11 deprogramming? 12 A. Excuse me? 13 Q. Has she taken a hard line against 14 deprogramming? 15 A. I don't know. You need to ask 16 Cynthia Kisser. 17 Q. You don't know what line she has 18 taken against deprogramming, if any? 19 A. I know what the Cult Awareness 20 Network has taken. I know the line of the Cult 21 Awareness Network. I don't known her personal 22 feelings. You need to ask Cynthia. You have her 23 address. You have her phone number. She is the 24 one I was supposed to murder for you. Why don't 25 you ask her, sir. You know where she is at. 3005 1 Q. So you have no personal knowledge as 2 to what her personal position has been with regard 3 to the membership of CAN associated with 4 deprogrammers? 5 A. Mr. Bowles, this is a question which 6 is constantly flaunted out about Scientology and 7 it is interesting that Scientology has a monopoly 8 on thought in this would. Because what one person 9 believes to be the case in 1980 or feelings may be 10 in 1980 changes over time. That's human. I don't 11 know what her feelings were in 1985, 1986 or what 12 they are today. I haven't spoken with her. So 13 you need to ask her. 14 I know what my thoughts about 15 deprogramming were when I was in the Church of 16 Scientology and I know what my thoughts about 17 deprogramming are now. People change. And you 18 know that. People in Scientology change all the 19 time. Decent human beings become criminals. Then 20 they leave the church and they are decent again. 21 People change and you need to respect that. 22 Q. Have you ever had any personal 23 knowledge of Cynthia Kisser's personal position 24 with regard to the association of CAN members with 25 deprogrammers? 3006 1 A. It would be speculative. I can only 2 speculate. It wouldn't be fact. 3 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-3. Turn 4 to Page 162. Actually 161, please. And if you 5 could read from Line 16 through to the next page. 6 A. To what page? 7 Q. The next page, 162, Line 6. 8 "Q. Did you in fact believe all that 9 stuff to be true when you wrote it" -- I would 10 like to read the preface before I begin to answer 11 this. 12 Q. Go ahead. 13 A. Okay. 14 "Q. Did you in fact 15 believe all that stuff to be 16 true when you wrote it? 17 "A. One thing I did 18 believe, and I still believe 19 again, I don't know how much 20 Cynthia Kisser has the power to 21 do this. I don't agree with 22 kidnapping. I still don't agree 23 with kidnapping. I think that 24 deprogrammers tend to forget 25 there is a psychological trauma 3007 1 that goes with kidnapping as 2 well and they are not around to 3 see the trauma that these 4 victims have to go through. And 5 I feel that Cynthia Kisser 6 should take a harder line by 7 telling them we do not associate 8 with deprogrammers. That's my 9 personal opinion that she should 10 take a harder line in diffusing 11 and separating CAN from 12 deprogramming, but that's, you 13 know, the extent of my 14 opinion." 15 Q. What was the basis of your making 16 that opinion under oath on September 11, 1992? 17 A. The basis of that, Mr. Bowles, is 18 that Cynthia Kisser is the executive director of 19 the Cult Awareness Network. Whereas it is my 20 personal opinion, and I have said here on Line 5 21 and 6, this is only my personal opinion that if 22 the Cult Awareness Network is going to effectively 23 separate themselves from kidnapping and 24 deprogramming, which they have made statements to 25 that effect, then something should be done 3008 1 regarding allowing those individuals that are in 2 the business of kidnapping deprogramming from 3 registering to attending Cult Awareness Network 4 conferences and also speaking as guests at Cult 5 Awareness Network conferences. Because I do not 6 agree and believe that one adult should be 7 kidnapped and held against their will and 8 deprogrammed. 9 That was my personal opinion. And we 10 know, both you and I know, Tim, that Joe Szimhart, 11 who has been tried, although he was not convicted, 12 for a recent kidnapping deprogramming in Boise, 13 Idaho has been a guest speaker at CAN conferences 14 as has Rick Ross and other individuals. 15 I believe it is Cynthia Kisser's 16 feeling, and again I am speculating here, that 17 everyone, and we are talking about parents here 18 who have loved ones in cults, have their own 19 philosophies and their own views on how they can 20 rescue their child from a cult, and they are 21 simply some people that are so entranced and so 22 entrenched in a cult you simply cannot invite them 23 over and talk with them in an involuntary 24 deprogramming to get them to listen. 25 Certainly, Tim, you and I both know 3009 1 that in Scientology individuals whose parents are 2 out to get them have been coached and they are 3 hidden underground and they are pushed away so 4 parents can't get to them. Maybe that's why 5 parents are so desperate. They feel so desperate 6 they need to kidnap their loved ones out of groups 7 like this. 8 I think Cynthia Kisser is simply 9 saying each person has to make his own decision on 10 how he feels and what resources they need to reach 11 out to and that CAN is in no position other than 12 to say our official position is we don't support 13 this. They are in no position of telling parents 14 what to do. That Cynthia would simply leave it up 15 to the parents to decide based upon their own 16 reasoning what is necessary in that particular 17 case. 18 Q. Yes or no, Mr. Scarff -- 19 A. I have answered the question. 20 Q. Were you speculating when you said 21 that Cynthia Kisser should take a harder line, yes 22 or no? 23 A. You are taking that out of context 24 and I will not answer a question with a yes or no 25 when you are taking it out of context. 3010 1 Q. Let's go on to another subject. 2 A. I have a right to finish my answer. 3 Q. You are filibustering. 4 A. No. I will not go on to another 5 question until I've answered this question, sir. 6 Please show some respect. 7 Page 162, Line 1 "And I feel that 8 Cynthia Kisser should take a harder line by 9 telling them." I have already addressed at length 10 my feelings and that it is my opinion that Cynthia 11 Kisser evidently feels that parents led by their 12 own feelings and convictions make their own 13 decisions on how they address a particular 14 situation and she leaves it up to them. She 15 respects that. That's my answer, sir. 16 Q. Now, your supposed student loan that 17 you passed to the Church of Scientology, how much 18 was that for? 19 A. You and I have discussed that, sir, 20 as an attorney and a client. You can address it 21 on record, sir. You have that information. If 22 you want to breach your obligations further, feel 23 free, but, sir, let's not get into that. 24 You and I have discussed that. You 25 and I have discussed at length what things I did 3011 1 at Pacific First Bank, which are illegal. And if 2 you want to address it, go for it. You are 3 already in deep doo-doo as it is. If you want to 4 dig yourself deeper go for it, Mr. Bowles, but you 5 are not going to get me to do it, sir. That's 6 attorney-client privilege. I refused to answer 7 that question. 8 Q. That goes for all the student loan 9 incident; is that right? 10 A. You know fully about that, sir. We 11 have discussed that and you have told me how if I 12 was ever investigated or prosecuted, how you, Tim, 13 would come to my defense and simply get rid of 14 it. 15 Pretty funny, isn't it, Mr. Bowles? 16 I don't find it funny at all. 17 Q. It is so absurd. 18 A. I find it insulting that you would 19 laugh. 20 Q. It is absurd. 21 What is your regard for Pat Ryan, 22 Patricia Ryan? Is she a truthful individual? 23 A. Yes, she is. And you know something, 24 I will be very honest, and I am glad you asked 25 that question, I am very anguished, and I continue 3012 1 to be anguished that I hurt this woman to the 2 degree that I hurt her. It is my understanding 3 from other individuals that know Patricia Ryan 4 that she was very hurt by the fact that I 5 misrepresented myself numerous times to her during 6 the time I was involved with the Church of 7 Scientology at the direction of the Church of 8 Scientology and the Church of Scientology has 9 absolutely no respect or concern for this 10 individual whatsoever. I hurt this woman deeply. 11 She continues to hold resentment towards me, which 12 is well deserved, I understand that. But I would 13 do anything to amend the hurt that I brought 14 against this woman but it was not deserved. 15 The Church of Scientology has no 16 respect whatsoever for the fact that this woman's 17 father was murdered in Jonestown and the fact that 18 she has chosen to be a spokesperson for other 19 people who are affected by cult situations. That 20 you simply want to destroy this when you have no 21 respect for her whatsoever. 22 Q. So yes or no, is she a truthful 23 individual? 24 A. In my feelings and my opinions, yes. 25 In the manner that I knew Patricia Ryan, she is a 3013 1 truthful individual. 2 Q. Let me show you what we have marked 3 as Exhibit-207, which is -- 4 A. I also want it stated that the court 5 reporter did not mark this. That Mr. Bowles 6 reached over and pulled the tag and marked these 7 exhibits himself without announcing on record 8 first what they were. 9 Q. And this is the deposition of 10 Patricia Ryan in the matter of Emory Wilson versus 11 Cult Awareness Network, a partial transcript. 12 A. Prepared by Atkinson-Baker Associate 13 which is a Scientology court reporting service in 14 Burbank, California. 15 MR. BOWLES: Strike as nonresponsive. 16 THE WITNESS: It is true. I can 17 substantiate that if you wish. 18 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 207 19 was marked for identification and is 20 bound separately.) 21 BY MR. BOWLES: 22 Q. Mr. Scarff, let's go to the third 23 page of this exhibit. And on the right-hand 24 column you will see there is a heading "Page 97." 25 Do you see that? 3014 1 A. No, I do not. 2 Q. The right-hand column. 3 A. I am only page 98 -- wait a second. 4 What page is it? 5 Q. The third page of the exhibit. 6 A. You are not counting the front page, 7 right? 8 Q. I am. 9 A. You are. Okay. And what, 97? 10 Q. Yes. Bottom of -- the right-hand 11 column. Do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. This is one of these condensed 14 transcripts. 15 A. I have never seen this before, by the 16 way. I don't even know the case in which you are 17 referring to here. I have never -- 18 Q. It is your testimony we have never 19 discussed this; is that right? 20 A. No, in fact I have never seen this 21 before. I don't even know anything about this 22 case. And before now, I didn't even know Patricia 23 Ryan was involved in this case. 24 Q. So let's go back to the third page. 25 A. Okay. 3015 1 Q. In the section that is titled 2 "Page 97." 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Would you please read from Line 24, 5 which is -- it has a numeral 24 in parentheses 6 there. Do you see that? 7 A. If you are referring to my name in 8 this, it actually goes up to 16, sir. It starts 9 with 16. 10 Q. Okay, fine. Can you read the context 11 if you wish, but I want you to start reading from 12 the question that is "Do you know Garry Scarff?" 13 Do you see that there? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 MR. CALHOUN: I will object as improper 16 examination based on the witness' lack of 17 familiarity with the document. 18 THE WITNESS: I am going to refuse to even 19 answer this, Counsel, because I also notice on 96 20 my name is mentioned. And I have not seen this 21 before. I am going to ask that you allow me to 22 read this document from Page 1 so I understand 23 what I am reading here, sir. Because you are 24 taking something out of context that I have never 25 seen before. I have never seen this and usually 3016 1 it is my position if my name appears on anything I 2 want to be able to have possession of it and read 3 it first. Again I think this is just another 4 tactic, sir, that you used during the time you 5 were my attorney and now you are using now. So 6 until I have a chance to fully read this, I am not 7 going to even talk about it. I refuse to answer 8 your question. 9 Q. Next question. 10 A. May I read this in full, sir? 11 Q. No. I am going to read the next 12 question to you. I am going to read the following 13 exchange to you and ask you if this is truthful. . 14 "Q. Do you know Garry 15 Scarff? 16 "A. I have met Garry 17 Scarff. 18 "Q. Do you believe he is 19 a liar? 20 "THE WITNESS: Dan? 21 "MR. LEIPOLD: Go 22 ahead. Say. 23 "THE WITNESS: I do 24 believe he is a liar. I believe 25 he has lied on many occasions, 3017 1 yes." 2 Would you agree with that testimony 3 by Patricia Ryan? 4 A. Yes. I would agree to that and I 5 have already attested to that because I lied to 6 Patricia Ryan during the time I was involved in 7 the Church of Scientology at the directives of the 8 Church of Scientology of which you, Mr. Bowles, 9 are fully aware. You knew about my relationship 10 with Patricia Ryan and the Cult Awareness 11 Network. You knew fully about that and again you 12 are breaching your obligations as an attorney 13 simply taking everything that you knew about the 14 content of our conversations and our discussions 15 and you are throwing it out to attack me and to 16 denigrate me. And you, sir, will be held 17 accountable for that. 18 Now, if you want to throw out things 19 like this that I have never seen before that, I 20 had no awareness of and take things out of 21 context -- I mean I have already found Garry 22 Scarff mentioned on Page 96, No. 3, which is 23 Page 97 and you simply out of context want me to 24 address a portion of this. 25 I see what you are doing, Mr. Bowles, 3018 1 and you are not ringing anybody's bells. You are 2 not doing anything that any corrupt attorney would 3 not do to simply take something out of context. 4 Again, Mr. Bowles, why don't you let 5 the court reporter mark exhibits, sir. I am going 6 to ask the Court to strike all this, too. Because 7 it is clear what you are up to, Mr. Bowles. 8 Mr. Bowles, since it is an exhibit I wish to read 9 this before I answer any further questions on 10 this. 11 Q. We are going on to the next 12 question. 13 A. Is this what you call full discovery 14 process is when you throw things out and don't let 15 people read them before you have a chance to 16 answer questions. Is this a full discovery 17 process. You have breach that too. 18 Q. Let me show you what we have marked 19 as Exhibit-208. 20 A. No, sir, I want to read this. Are 21 you done asking questions? 22 Q. Yes, I am 23 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 208 24 was marked for identification and is 25 bound separately.) 3019 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. What is your regard for Anne Greek? 3 A. I am sorry. 4 Q. What is your regard for Anne Greek? 5 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, vague as to time. 6 THE WITNESS: When? 7 BY MR. BOWLES: 8 Q. Currently. 9 A. Currently this is a woman, a very 10 wonderful, caring, compassionate woman who has 11 reached out and helped so many people in different 12 ways that I hurt this woman to such a degree that 13 if she never forgives me I deserve it. 14 Q. Is she a truthful individual? 15 A. Yes. She is a truthful individual. 16 Q. This 208 is a condensed transcript of 17 the deposition of Anne Greek in the matter of 18 Wisel versus Cult Awareness Network. 19 A. Which I have never seen before. 20 Which you have not provided to me. 21 Q. I will ask you a question having 22 now -- I will read a part of the transcript. 23 A. Again which was omitted from the 24 discovery process in this deposition by Mr. Bowles 25 deliberately. 3020 1 Q. Now -- 2 A. I don't see that. Where are you? 3 Q. I am going to read from the last page 4 of this exhibit. It is in the left-hand column 5 under the heading Page 53. And I am starting at 6 Line 4. 7 "Q. Okay. Now, we 8 talked last time a little bit 9 about Garry Scarff and we 10 established -- correct me if I 11 am wrong we established that the 12 point at which the CAN board 13 resolved that Mr. Scarff was not 14 truthful was when he embellished 15 the story about Jonestown and 16 the point of having raised a 17 supposed wife and child that 18 died there. Do you recall 19 giving that testimony? 20 "A. I do. In my 21 opinion. 22 "Q. You said that was 23 sometime shortly after the board 24 meeting in 1988, the national 25 conference? 3021 1 "A. I will answer 2 that question with, in my 3 opinion, Garry Scarff is a 4 compulsive liar and makes 5 victims of everyone and every 6 organization he touches. I am 7 going to refuse to answer any 8 more questions about Garry." 9 Mr. Scarff, would you consider that 10 to be truthful testimony? 11 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, calls for 12 speculation. 13 THE WITNESS: That is Anne Greek's opinion 14 based upon all the hurt that I have caused her 15 because Anne Greek looked upon me as an adopted 16 son. We were very emotionally intimate with one 17 another and I betrayed this woman during the time 18 I was working for the Church of Scientology and 19 even tried to incriminate her in several manners 20 of which you are aware of, sir, which has been 21 produced in this deposition in the form of 22 exhibits in which you and I have discussed. In 23 which you, sir, were prepared to file a lawsuit. 24 Don't look away at me, Mr. Bowles. 25 You can look at me. You don't need to look away 3022 1 when we talk about the lawsuit we prepared. Don't 2 interrupt me. Shut up, Mr. Bowles. I have a 3 right to finish an answer. You have no right to 4 interrupt that, sir. 5 You prepared the lawsuit and on that 6 lawsuit, the complaint was against Anne Greek, who 7 you are now referring to, wouldn't that make you 8 angry? I understand why she said that. She was 9 emotional. She is upset. 10 I hate to tell you, Mr. Bowles, I 11 have had some conversations with some people since 12 I left the Church of Scientology and all these 13 people that were angry and hateful towards me then 14 aren't so now because they realize now what kind 15 of crap I was under in the Church of Scientology. 16 And what kind of garbage, human garbage you are. 17 So you can use this as you wish because I have a 18 feeling that down the line some of these very same 19 people are going to come up and they are going to 20 be talking on behalf of Garry Scarff and this is 21 going to blow you right out of the water. 22 Q. Did Anne Greek testify truthfully 23 there, Mr. Scarff? 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, calls for 25 speculation. 3023 1 THE WITNESS: That was her opinion. The 2 opinion speaks for itself, sir. You have used 3 it. You didn't show it to me before. I have 4 never seen this before so I didn't even know this 5 took place. 6 MR. BOWLES: Let's go to Exhibit-6. 7 THE WITNESS: I would like to take a break. 8 It has been at least 45 minutes. 9 MR. BOWLES: I differ on that, but if you 10 are insistent, I guess we will take a break, 11 Mr. Scarff. 12 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The time 13 is 11:05 A.M. 14 (Recess taken.) 15 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 16 The time is 11:45 A.M. 17 BY MR. BOWLES: 18 Q. Mr. Scarff, would you please turn to 19 Exhibit-6. And turn to Page 249, please. I would 20 like you to read from Line 14 of that Page 249 21 through to Line 5 of Page 251. 22 A. I would like to read it first. 23 Q. Sure. 24 A. "Q. Why had you decided 25 to leave the Positive Action 3024 1 Center? 2 "A. It was just a 3 personal decision plus in the 4 Mormon Church you extricate 5 yourself from past relationships 6 that are not conducive to the 7 doctrine or philosophy of 8 Mormonism. 9 "Q. What was it about 10 the Positive Action Center that 11 wasn't conducive to Mormonism as 12 far as you understood it? 13 "A. The only way I can 14 answer that, Counsel, is that in 15 the Mormon Church you are 16 involved in certain activities 17 that have absolutely nothing to 18 do with the activities that the 19 Positive Action Center has 20 nothing to do with. And I 21 immersed myself in Mormonism. 22 "Q. Since I have never 23 been involved in either one, 24 could you tell me what you are 25 talking about, what activities 3025 1 at the Mormon Church were 2 inconsistent with the -- 3 "A. I am not saying 4 there are inconsistent 5 activities. I am just saying 6 that Mormonism was a path that I 7 took that did not involve cult 8 education of any kind. If you 9 are trying to get to the point 10 that the Greeks condemned 11 Mormonism as a cult, that never 12 came up. The fact is that I 13 decided to embark on this very 14 religious path with the Mormon 15 Church. I was -- I had met 16 someone that I was possibly 17 looking at marrying in the 18 future and possibly have 19 children. That meant more to me 20 than anything else. 21 "Q. So there wasn't 22 anything inconsistent between 23 the Positive Action Center and 24 the Mormons other than you were 25 going to devote your life to 3026 1 this person and -- 2 "A. Yes. Plus also some 3 personal grief about having 4 lived a life of lies. 5 "Q. By that you are 6 referring -- 7 "A. I had lied to the 8 Positive Action Center. I had 9 lied to people that were very 10 good to me that treated me like 11 a family. Anne Greek was very 12 much the mother to me that I had 13 never had with my own mother and 14 I could not, I just did not want 15 to be involved in that any 16 more." 17 Q. Is that an accurate transcription of 18 your testimony on September 11, 1992? 19 A. Yes, it is. 20 Q. And you are now asking that people 21 trust you that you are no longer living a life of 22 lies, are you? 23 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 24 THE WITNESS: I won't answer that question, 25 Mr. Bowles. I refuse to answer that. 3027 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. Who is your lawyer, Mr. Scarff? 3 A. Mr. Bowles, I no longer have a lawyer 4 at this time. I simply fired you today as my 5 attorney. 6 Q. Who is the counsel that you have been 7 claiming you have been consulting with for this 8 entire deposition? 9 A. And you have consistently asked 10 that. Your questions have been duplicative and I 11 have given you answers. 12 Q. Is it the same lawyer now that you 13 started with at the beginning of the deposition? 14 A. As I said to counsel and I believe I 15 have said this yesterday. I have had counsel from 16 three different lawyers. 17 Q. So you have had counsel from three 18 different lawyers since the beginning of this 19 deposition? 20 A. Three different, yes. 21 Q. Are they in different law firms? 22 A. I refuse to answer that question, 23 sir. 24 Q. Are they in the law firm? 25 A. Asked and answered. 3028 1 Q. Are they all members of the state Bar 2 of California? 3 A. I refuse to answer that question. 4 You are trying to swim around the question here, 5 Mr. Bowles. We know what you are trying to do, 6 sir. So move on. 7 Q. And you consulted how many lawyers 8 with regard to this position you are now taking on 9 the attorney-client privilege? 10 A. One. 11 Q. And I assume you are not going to 12 divulge that person's name either; is that right? 13 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 14 Q. Are you now claiming that all 15 discussions regarding your life experiences with 16 Scientology, with deprogramming, with CAN and PAC 17 were discussions between you and me in the 18 attorney-client privilege context? 19 A. I never said that. You are 20 characterizing that as such. 21 Q. I am just asking for your claim. 22 A. What you just said was a statement, I 23 guess. I didn't hear a question. 24 Q. Are you claiming that all discussions 25 regarding your life experiences with the Church of 3029 1 Scientology, with the Cult Awareness Network and 2 any of its affiliates including the Positive 3 Action Center and any personnel attached to those 4 organizations was also discussed in the context of 5 an attorney-client privilege between you and me? 6 A. Much of that was discussed in the 7 content between you and me particularly during the 8 time you were prepared to file a lawsuit on my 9 behalf against parties in the Cult Awareness 10 Network and associated with the Cult Awareness 11 Network, and we went over that in great length on 12 how you were going to obstruct the discovery 13 process, how you were going to obstruct CAN from 14 coming after me in case we lost the lawsuit and 15 all that was discussed with you, Mr. Bowles and 16 with Mr. Moxon and with other members of your law 17 firm. 18 And I refuse to discuss that, sir. 19 If you wish to discuss it, then you can deal with 20 the Court on that. You are breaching your 21 obligations as an attorney. If you want to breach 22 those obligations, sir, you are entitled to do 23 that. Everyone has free choice but I am not going 24 to discuss it, sir. 25 Q. Mr. Scarff, this is obstruction of 3030 1 the deposition. We have spent some days 2 cross-examining you. You spent some days 3 discussing this on direct examination. The breaks 4 you have taken in this deposition lasted well over 5 half an hour now. They are getting longer and 6 longer. 7 Your answers are nonresponsive. You 8 go into areas that have nothing to do with the 9 question asked. There is filibustering going on. 10 You are taking time to look at exhibits that have 11 nothing do with the question I ask. And I am at 12 this point going to conclude my cross-examination 13 on a couple of conditions. 14 One is we are going to reserve the 15 right to reopen cross-examination upon your 16 submitting any written corrections to the 17 transcript which are substantive in nature. We 18 will reserve the right to recross-examination if 19 counsel chooses to engage in any sort of redirect 20 examination. And we will also be bringing a 21 motion to compel, and I should actually revise 22 that. We intend to bring a motion to strike the 23 entire deposition for the obstruction that's 24 occurring here and to compel answers to questions 25 that you have refused to answer without any valid 3031 1 basis. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 MR. BOWLES: So with that, Mr. Calhoun, it 4 is over to you. 5 THE WITNESS: First of all, I would like to 6 say, Mr. Calhoun and to Mr. Bowles and to the 7 paralegal that is sitting here, I don't know this 8 man's name, as far as the breaks are concerned, I 9 was told that this could not proceed until all 10 attorneys were present. During these breaks that 11 you said that I have taken well over 30 minutes 12 on, I have been present, sir. And I have waited 13 for other attorneys to come to be present. This 14 last break I took, as you are well aware because I 15 walked right by, sir, I was talking to the guard I 16 was here. 17 Q. You were here after 35 minutes. 18 A. After speaking to counsel. But 19 despite that, Mr. Bowles, Mr. Calhoun was not 20 present. So you, sir, could not have proceeded 21 with this deposition anyway because Mr. Calhoun 22 was not present. And during these breaks I have 23 been here, sir, waiting for Mr. Calhoun to end 24 what business he had to end to come to this 25 deposition. 3032 1 So your complaint there is basically 2 null and void, sir, because you can't direct that 3 at me. I have been here waiting for this depo to 4 continue but we could not because Mr. Calhoun 5 needed to be here, sir. So I would take that, 6 address that complaint to Mr. Calhoun and ask him 7 not to be involved in any of other type of 8 business, I guess. But I have been here, sir, 9 waiting for this depo to continue. So don't hash 10 that on me. Again that is another 11 misrepresentation you have decided to throw out in 12 the deposition. 13 As far as the other things, that's 14 fine. Mr. Bowles, it is clear at this point that 15 you and I are going to be seeing a lot of each 16 other. You are going to be going before a 17 committee on discipline and I will be there, sir. 18 There will be a Bar complaint. And we will both 19 be in contact regarding that, sir. So I have a 20 feeling that you and I are going to be around each 21 other for quite a bit for a time in the future. 22 So you can make whatever complaints 23 you wish. I have always made it and said it on 24 record that if the judge in any case rules for me 25 to do something, I will abide by a judge's ruling 3033 1 because this is not a Scientology court we are 2 dealing with. We are not dealing with Scientology 3 officials. We are dealing with a justice system 4 that does things on a fair an equitable basis. I 5 will accept the judge's ruling. 6 But you, sir, are not the judge as 7 you have tried to point yourself out or tried to 8 make me feel you were. 9 And I have been told, thank God, that 10 I have rights and responsibilities and those 11 rights and responsibilities have been given to me 12 most recently by attorneys that care about what is 13 happening to me in this process that I simply 14 cannot afford to pay. And if I choose to receive 15 counsel from attorneys that from the goodness of 16 their hearts and in pro bono want to give that 17 advice to me, I am going to accept it. And if you 18 don't like it, all I can say, Mr. Bowles, is stuff 19 it. 20 MR. CALHOUN: I don't have any questions of 21 you, Mr. Scarff; however, I would ask for 22 clarification of your statement in response to 23 Mr. Bowles. Are you refusing to answer, and this 24 is going to be a long question so if it is 25 difficult, ask me to break it down. I am going to 3034 1 put these as two alternative positions. 2 Are you telling us that you will not 3 answer any questions Mr. Bowles puts to you about 4 your life experiences or are you telling us that 5 you will only not answer questions about those 6 life experiences you contend you discussed with 7 Mr. Bowles in the context of an attorney-client 8 relationship? 9 THE WITNESS: As I have said on record 10 before, I will not discuss those experiences that 11 were discussed directly with Tim Bowles or any of 12 his associates that were under attorney-client 13 privilege. And that came under attorney-client 14 privilege. And I'm speaking specifically to not 15 only personal conversations I had with this man 16 sitting across the desk from me, but his 17 associates. 18 I have been advised by counsel that 19 even if Mr. Bowles was to leave this 20 cross-examination and simply replace himself with 21 Mr. Wiener or Mr. Moxon, that attorney-client 22 privilege still stands because it is still the 23 same law firm and that attorney-client privilege 24 covers the entire law firm. And I am asserting 25 that privilege. I have been told I have that 3035 1 privilege so I am asserting it. 2 If Mr. Bowles wants to ask me 3 questions that were not discussed in the contexts 4 of attorney-client privilege, he has the right to 5 do that and I am prepared to cooperate with him. 6 But he has made it very clear that he wants to 7 throw all of the stuff that was part and parcel to 8 our attorney-client privilege and simply throw it 9 on the table and use it against me. He does not 10 respect my position here. He has chosen to 11 represent the Church of Scientology International 12 over me. 13 And as far as he is concerned, when I 14 left the Church of Scientology evidently in his 15 opinion he is no longer my attorney and, 16 therefore, he has the right to strike at me any 17 way he chooses whether it is unethical, whether it 18 is a breach of his legal obligations. He simply 19 feels he has the right do that. 20 So in answer to your question, I am 21 prepared to answer any questions he has as long as 22 it was not content of our attorney-client 23 privilege. 24 MR. CALHOUN: I have no further questions. 25 MR. BOWLES: So, Mr. Scarff, we will take 3036 1 your word for it, is that it, as to what we 2 discussed and what we didn't from the 3 attorney-client privilege context? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. BOWLES: I guess with that we are closed 6 until order of the Court. 7 MR. CALHOUN: Since this doesn't relate to 8 the conduct of the deposition, the issues that you 9 have asked about, it is not a 30(d) issue, not in 10 my opinion. 11 MR. BOWLES: I wouldn't think so either. 12 MR. CALHOUN: It would sound like we need to 13 do the usually 10-day meet and confer and exchange 14 of positions. It looks like it is going to be a 15 three-party situation because we have our 16 position, you have your position and Mr. Scarff 17 has his position. So we will need to work out a 18 mechanism whereby papers from each of the 19 respected positions are collated for the Court's 20 benefit. 21 MR. BOWLES: I agree with that. One thing 22 we are going to do immediately is to collate the 23 questions and answers that we think ought to be 24 made. 25 MR. CALHOUN: I understand. 3037 1 MR. BOWLES: The question that were given 2 and the answers that should be given in response. 3 So, Mr. Scarff, as Mr. Calhoun will 4 tell you there are local rules here on setting 5 meetings to resolve these matters informally 6 initially and then taking off to the Court for 7 those matters that cannot be resolved in the form 8 of a joint statement and we will be bringing a 9 motion and we will be taking the lead on the meet 10 and confer. 11 THE WITNESS: I am also going to ask, 12 Mr. Calhoun, I don't know if this is my right to 13 ask you or even make you aware of it and I am 14 going to ask Mr. Bowles the same thing, is that in 15 this ex parte, whatever you have to do, there is a 16 full and complete discovery process because it is 17 clear that Mr. Bowles has chosen to withhold a 18 number of client files which he claims he doesn't 19 have when in fact he does. He again is 20 obstructing this process by not providing full and 21 complete discovery in this deposition. 22 MR. BOWLES: Mr. Scarff, this is the Fishman 23 case. This is not the Garry Scarff case. 24 THE WITNESS: You have tried me already, 25 Mr. Bowles. You have been trying me in this 3038 1 cross-examination. 2 MR. BOWLES: When the other side brought you 3 in to make this your case, we have every right to 4 cross-examine you. 5 MR. CALHOUN: Let's see if we can work 6 something out here in terms of it may be possible 7 to get answers to some of these questions without 8 necessarily getting answers to all of them. I 9 suspect all of these won't be answered. But if 10 there are questions that Mr. Scarff decides to 11 answer, can we agree on a procedure by which that 12 would be done? 13 MR. BOWLES: I would rather make that part 14 of the meet and confer process itself rather than 15 go into a long discussion about that point right 16 now. I suppose one of the things you are thinking 17 about is bringing him back. 18 MR. CALHOUN: Bringing him back or having 19 video conference or there is any one of a number 20 of methods that large corporations have been using 21 for the past decade to allow interrogation or 22 meetings to occur on a cross-continental basis 23 without necessarily incurring the cost of people 24 flying back and forth. 25 MR. BOWLES: Well, all I can say is we are 3039 1 prepared to work with you on the most 2 cost-efficient manner without sacrificing the 3 benefits we have had so far which of course are 4 video. 5 MR. CALHOUN: The methodology that I am 6 speaking of would effectively be a conference room 7 in California and a conference room wherever 8 Mr. Scarff is located and the entire process is 9 videotaped. One would be merged together. 10 MR. BOWLES: We will consider it. 11 MR. CALHOUN: I don't know whether this is 12 being treated as complete or not, if it is not 13 complete. 14 MR. BOWLES: I don't think it is complete. 15 So I guess with that we are adjourned. 16 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 17 The date is August 18, 1993. The time is 18 12:03 P.M. End of Tape 1, Volume XVI, continuing 19 deposition of Mr. Scarff. 20 (TIME NOTED: 12:03 P.M.) 21 22 23 24 _____________________________ 25 SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS 3040 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) 2 ) ss: 3 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 4 5 6 I, ______________________________, a 7 notary public for the County of Los Angeles, State 8 of California, certify that on __________________, 9 19 ___, the foregoing deposition was submitted to 10 _____________ _______________________ for 11 examination and was read by the witness, at which 12 time any changes made by the witness were entered 13 upon the deposition, and was signed by the witness 14 before me. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ___________________________________ 22 Notary Public in and for the County 23 of Los Angeles, State of California 24 25 3041 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss: 2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 3 4 I, LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222, do hereby 5 certify: 6 That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L. 7 SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place 8 therein set forth, at which time the witness was 9 put on oath by me; 10 That the testimony of the witness and all 11 objections made at the time of the examination 12 were recorded stenographically by me, were 13 thereafter transcribed under my direction and 14 supervision and that the foregoing is a true 15 record of same. 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel 17 for nor related to any party to said action, nor 18 in anywise interested in the outcome thereof. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name 20 this 18th day of August, 1993. 21 22 23 24 ___________________________________ 25 LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222 3042 1 I N D E X 2 VOLUME XVII 3 4 WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 18, 1993 5 6 WITNESS EXAMINATION 7 8 GARRY L. SCARFF 9 10 (By Mr. Bowles) 2990 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3043 1 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 2 GARRY L. SCARFF 3 4 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 5 207 Partial condensed transcript 3013 6 of the deposition of Patricia 7 Ryan, taken May 13, 1993. 8 9 208 Partial condensed transcript 3018 10 of the deposition of Anne 11 Greek, taken May 7, 1993. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ================================================================= If this is a copyrighted work, you are acknowledging by receipt of this document from FACTNet that on the basis of reasonable investigation, you have not been to obtain a copy elsewhere at a fair price, and that you are and will abide by the following copyright warning. WARNING CONCERNING COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS: The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photo copies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified by law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. 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