------------------------------------------------------------------- F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. (Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network, Incorporated) a non-profit computer bulletin board and electronic library 601 16th St. #C-217 Golden, Colorado 80401 USA BBS 303 530-1942 FAX 303 530-2950 Office 303 473-0111 This document is part of an electronic lending library and preservational electronic archive. F.A.C.T.Net does not sell documents, it only lends them according to the terms of your library cardholder agreement with F.A.C.T.Net, Inc. ===================================================================== 2777 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 ------------------------------ 5 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY ) 6 INTERNATIONAL, a California ) 7 non-profit religious ) 8 organization, ) 9 Plaintiff, ) 10 vs. )No. 93-3843-HLH(Tx) 11 STEVEN FISHMAN and UWE GEERTZ,)VOLUME XVI 12 Defendants. ) 13 ------------------------------ 14 15 Continued deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF, 16 at 221 North Figueroa Street, Suite 1200, 17 Los Angeles, California, commencing at 18 10:25 A.M., Tuesday, August 17, 1993, 19 before Paulette M. Griffin, CSR No. 2499 20 and Lee Brenneman, CSR No. 5222. 21 22 23 24 25 PAGES 2777-2987 2778 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 3 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: 4 5 BOWLES & MOXON 6 BY: TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ. 7 6255 Sunset Boulevard 8 Suite 2000 9 Hollywood, California 90028 10 11 FOR THE DEFENDANT UWE GEERTZ: 12 13 LEWIS, D'AMATO, BRISBOIS & BISGAARD 14 BY: GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 15 221 North Figueroa Street 16 Suite 1200 17 Los Angeles, California 90012 18 19 ALSO PRESENT: 20 21 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 22 BOB BICHLER 23 24 25 2779 1 GARRY L. SCARFF, 2 having been previously duly sworn, testified 3 further as follows: 4 5 VIDEO OPERATOR: Good morning. We are back 6 on the record. Today is August 17th, 1993. The 7 time is 10:25 A.M. Beginning of Tape 1, 8 Volume XV, continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 9 10 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. Morning, Mr. Scarff. 13 A. Good morning. 14 MR. BOWLES: Morning, Mr. Calhoun. 15 MR. CALHOUN: Morning, Counsel. 16 BY MR. BOWLES: 17 Q. All right. Mr. Scarff, you are still 18 under oath. You understand that? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Any more on your plan to motion? 21 A. Yes, I do. I will have the motions 22 here tomorrow at ten o'clock and they will be 23 filed tomorrow to be heard on Thursday. 24 Q. So are you following the joint 25 statement procedure specified by the judge? 2780 1 A. Yes, I am. 2 Q. All right. So, -- fine. So you are 3 filing these by yourself? 4 A. I am filing them with the help of 5 counsel. 6 Q. Will counsel's name be on the 7 papers? 8 A. I am sure they will be, sir. 9 Q. So at that time we will finally know 10 who counsel is; is that right? 11 A. Counsel, I have just answered your 12 question. Let's move on. 13 Q. So we have no ability to contact this 14 counsel prior to the filing of this joint 15 statement; is that right, you are not going to 16 allow us to do that? 17 A. I think I have already answered that 18 question many times before, sir. 19 Q. And the answer is no; right? 20 A. Characterize it as you wish. I think 21 I have given that answer to you many times. Let's 22 get on with the depo, please. 23 Q. All right. Mr. Scarff, the 24 deposition could well be done sooner than Friday 25 if you will simply answer my questions and not go 2781 1 off on nonresponsive speeches about extraneous 2 matters not related to the question. 3 Do you understand that? 4 A. No, Mr. Bowles, I don't understand 5 that. Because we both know exactly why you are 6 here. And if you want to toy with this and you 7 have nothing better to do with your time, I am 8 prepared to stay here for another month. 9 Q. You mean Friday? 10 A. Definitely. I am committed to this. 11 I mean, I was committed to a week and a half, but 12 as a result of your poor conduct and behavior 13 during this entire proceeding, I am committed to 14 this. 15 Q. All right. What is your motion going 16 to say then? 17 A. Read it tomorrow, sir. Why would I 18 put it in writing if I needed to tell you what it 19 said? You can read it tomorrow. 20 Q. Let's go to Exhibit-71. Look at the 21 original, Mr. Scarff, so we have no mistake. 22 A. Mr. Bowles, allow me the time to find 23 it first before you answer your question, please. 24 I know you are in a hurry. 25 Q. The court reporter may have set it 2782 1 aside for you there. 2 A. I don't recall the court reporter 3 setting anything aside for me, sir. 4 Q. Those are the originals you just 5 plopped on the floor. 6 A. You said Exhibit-71? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. Let me pull Exhibit-71 here. Okay. 9 Q. These appear to be receipts for 10 services paid for; is that right? 11 A. They don't appear, they are receipts 12 paid for services by the Church of Scientology, 13 Mission of Davis. 14 Q. What's the difference between the 15 Mission of Davis and the Celebrity Center of 16 Portland? 17 A. The Mission of Davis is the 18 ecclesiastical entity of the Church of 19 Scientology. The Celebrity Center is where one 20 takes courses and introduced to various courses. 21 Q. Are they different entities? 22 A. On paper I am sure they are different 23 entities, but they are all part of the Church of 24 Scientology International as you well know. 25 Q. What makes you think they are 2783 1 different entities on paper? 2 A. Excuse me? 3 Q. What makes you so sure they are 4 difference entities on paper? 5 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; mischaracterizes 6 the testimony. 7 THE WITNESS: I seem to recall that 8 different -- they are trademarks and each one has 9 a different trademark. I could be wrong. 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. Have you researched the area? 12 A. Excuse me? 13 Q. Have you researched the area? 14 A. I don't think it takes a lot of 15 research if they are in fact two different 16 entities, why they are named differently and why 17 they are in two separate buildings. 18 Q. What building is the Mission of Davis 19 in? 20 A. The Mission of Davis is at 701 21 Southeast Salmon. The Celebrity Center in 22 Portland is connected to it in another office of 23 what used to be a beauty salon and what is now 24 next to a restaurant. But they are two separate 25 buildings. Actually they are in the same building 2784 1 but two separate offices. If they are one in the 2 same, I don't see why they need to separate 3 offices and they have two different titles. 4 Q. So that's your research? Have you 5 done any corporate research to make your 6 statement? 7 A. I don't know what you mean by 8 "corporate research." 9 Q. Have you gone to the Secretary of 10 state for the State of Oregon to see whether or 11 not in fact these are separate entities or not? 12 A. No. Had no reason to. 13 Q. So the state of your research is 14 looking where buildings are located and signs out 15 front? 16 A. No. I was always told the Mission of 17 Davis, the reason, and it was explained to me by 18 John Carmichael, is the mission is the religious 19 entity of the Church of Scientology. It's where 20 one goes to when they first have contact with the 21 Church of Scientology and where one is told about 22 the spiritual and religious nature of Scientology 23 and where the introductory courses are explained 24 and taken. 25 And the Celebrity Center acts as a 2785 1 place where you take higher level courses than you 2 do in the Mission of Davis. And the Celebrity 3 Center is not considered a religious entity of the 4 church. It's like an instruction or educational 5 entity of the church. 6 Q. This is according to Mr. Carmichael? 7 A. Mr. Carmichael. Gwen Mayfield. 8 Angie Mann. 9 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-71. 10 A. I am looking at it. 11 Q. The upper left corner has what 12 appears to be a copy of an invoice numbered 7148, 13 date 25 May '92. Whose handwriting is that? 14 A. Murray Marvin. It's signed Murray 15 Marvin. 16 Q. Did you see him fill it out? 17 A. I believe Murray Marvin did fill this 18 out, yeah. 19 Q. The question is, did you see him fill 20 it out? 21 A. And my answer is I believe Murray 22 Marvin filled this out, yes. 23 Q. Did he fill it out while you were 24 watching him? 25 A. I believe so. 2786 1 Q. Did he fill it out on the 25th of May 2 '92? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. What does "No mail please" mean? 5 A. "No mail please" was indicated, it 6 was written there by Angie Mann at the directions 7 of David Butterworth who said that if any time the 8 Cult Awareness Network was ever to defend 9 themselves against these frivolous SLAPS suits 10 filed against the Cult Awareness Network under the 11 Plan 100, that in the discovery process the Cult 12 Awareness Network attorneys could invariably seek 13 records reflective of Garry Scarff's association 14 with the Church of Scientology. And that they, in 15 fact, in the discovery process could get copies of 16 all receipts of courses taken. 17 And that they simply had "No mail 18 please" because it was also the understanding that 19 mail might be stolen from members of the Cult 20 Awareness Network out of my mailbox. And so they 21 were not to have any indication that I was taking 22 courses at the Mission of Davis and that the 23 receipts were going to be retained there in a 24 secret file and that they were not to send any 25 mail to me that could be offed or taken away by 2787 1 members of the Cult Awareness Network who may want 2 to be in the position of stealing my mail. 3 Q. All right. Take a look at the other 4 receipt on the top of that page, bottom, upper 5 right corner. What does ISF stand for? 6 A. It's ISE. It's introduction to 7 Scientology ethics. 8 Q. What does that indicate then? Did 9 you buy a book? 10 A. It was a course. 11 Q. What does NSL stand for? 12 A. I forgot what that was. It was 13 another course that I was taking. 14 Q. How did you pay for these, upper 15 left, how did you pay this $30, if at all? 16 A. I believe it was by check. 17 Q. Okay. What bank account? 18 A. It was through Bank of America. 19 Q. What branch? 20 A. The Lloyd Center Branch. 21 Q. Did you have more than one checking 22 account at the time? 23 A. I have had -- yeah, I did. 24 Q. At the time. 25 A. Uh-huh, yes. 2788 1 Q. What other checking accounts did you 2 have at this time in May of 1992? 3 A. Checking, savings. I had a CD. 4 Q. What other checking accounts did you 5 have besides Bank of America, Lloyd Center? 6 A. That was it. 7 Q. So then you had a savings account and 8 a CD? 9 A. A CD. 10 Q. Were they all at the same branch of 11 Bank of America? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that was the Lloyd Center; 14 correct? 15 A. Lloyd Center Branch. 16 Q. Let's look at the larger invoice 17 that's photocopied sideways. Did you prepare this 18 exhibit, sir? 19 A. No, I did not. 20 Q. Who prepared it? 21 A. Joanne Charbonneau. 22 Q. She prepared this piece of paper? 23 A. Yes. I mean she signed it. 24 Q. With all these invoices on it? 25 A. No. This piece of paper here? 2789 1 Q. Yeah. 2 A. Are you talking about this exhibit? 3 I thought you meant the income invoice. 4 Q. No. 5 A. No, the exhibit I did. 6 Q. Do you have the original of each one 7 of these invoices shown? 8 A. No, sir, because the files in which 9 Gwen Mayfield gave me to copy, this was enclosed 10 in the file and it was like this when I 11 photocopied it at Kinko's. 12 Q. Now this larger invoice, it's headed 13 "Church of Scientology Celebrity Center 14 Portland." Were these other invoices that are on 15 this same exhibit, the smaller ones, are they also 16 from the Celebrity Center at Portland? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, this larger invoice, it's got a 19 number on it of PS 1209. Who filled this out? 20 A. Joanne Charbonneau. 21 Q. So it's your testimony that this is 22 Joanne Charbonneau's handwriting? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. It's not your handwriting. 25 A. No. I wouldn't have access to income 2790 1 invoices in the church, sir. 2 Q. You didn't fill this out? 3 A. No. Like I said, I don't have access 4 to income invoices in the church. 5 Q. I notice just below the income 6 invoice and a number there is a handwritten entry 7 "check # 119 PI full." 8 A. Paid in full. 9 Q. Was that a check written from your 10 Bank of America Lloyd Center Branch? 11 A. Yes, it was. 12 Q. Do you have canceled checks from that 13 checking account? 14 A. No. Because I no longer do business 15 at Bank of America. I don't have copies of 16 canceled checks anymore. Had no reason to keep 17 them. However, I am sure you can get it from the 18 bank. Because I believe banks do photocopy all 19 the check transactions. 20 Q. And it's your testimony that that's 21 Joanne Charbonneau's signature there at the bottom 22 of the page? 23 A. I have testified to that, yes. 24 Q. Did you see her fill this out in 25 front of you? 2791 1 A. No. No. I gave her a check. Gwen 2 Mayfield, I told Gwen Mayfield what I wanted to 3 do. After Gwen had told me some of the things 4 that might benefit me, I gave her the check. And 5 I was told that I would get a copy of the invoice, 6 and I did get a copy in the mail from Joanne of 7 this. 8 Q. Okay. You understand that if you 9 forged this, this is going to be fraudulent claim 10 of donations to the church? 11 A. Mr. Bowles. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 13 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, go on with your 14 testimony. We know who the forgers are. I have 15 documented evidence of that, sir. Evidently you 16 don't want to refer to it, although it's in the 17 exhibits. So. Would you like me to refer to the 18 internal church document that talks about teaching 19 people how to forge documents, sir? 20 Q. Yeah, we will get to that. 21 A. I hope you do. 22 By the way, when are you going to 23 refund my money to me, sir? 24 Q. You prove that you paid it and maybe 25 we will go to the next step. 2792 1 A. What you are saying is I need to file 2 a suit against you? 3 Q. No. Let's see the canceled check. 4 Why don't you send us the canceled check that 5 shows that's not a forgery. 6 A. Tell you what. I will take it up 7 with an attorney and you may be back here again 8 defending yourself on this since you have chosen 9 not to cooperate. 10 Q. Show us a canceled check, Mr. Scarff, 11 everything will be very simple. 12 A. Will it be that simple if I show you 13 a canceled check? You are saying on record now 14 that you will refund my money to me. 15 Q. If you can prove you paid it to the 16 Church of Scientology, they have their refund 17 policies and I am sure they will be followed. 18 A. And you are guaranteeing that. 19 Q. You can ask them. I am not 20 representing the Portland church here. 21 A. You are representing the Church of 22 Scientology International. Are you now 23 guaranteeing me that you will refund my money if I 24 present a canceled check? 25 Q. No, I am not. 2793 1 A. Of course not. 2 Q. I don't remember represent the 3 Portland church. That's who you paid. 4 A. You are a liar. Liar. You just 5 can't -- 6 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 7 A. You just can't deal with the truth 8 here, Mr. Bowles. 9 Q. Let's get to the truth. 10 A. Mr. Bowles, I have been trying to get 11 to the truth, what, the 16th day, and you have 12 toyed with the system up till now. You don't want 13 the truth. You are looking for every legal dodge 14 you can get your hands on. 15 Q. 1982 to 1984, besides the four 16 courses you claim to have taken at that time, did 17 you take any other services from the Church of 18 Scientology? 19 A. I went through assist processing, and 20 I was meeting with a counselor in the church. I 21 was talking to John Carmichael quite a bit about 22 personal things that were happening in my life. 23 Things that were bothering me. And that was about 24 the extent of it. 25 Q. Were those services you paid for, 2794 1 this talk to Mr. Carmichael? 2 A. No. 3 Q. What services did you pay for during 4 that period of time aside from the four courses 5 you now claim you have taken? 6 A. I had assist processing. I had some 7 auditing. At least I would say it was auditing, 8 because I was on E-meter. A piece of junk. And I 9 was told at a later date that I was being charged 10 for all of that, although it was my original 11 understanding that I was not paying for it. And 12 later I paid $6,000 to the church. 13 Q. Do you have the canceled check for 14 that? 15 A. It wasn't my checks. They were NDSL 16 checks and GSL checks. And since that is now 17 federal and I have asserted that to federal 18 officials, that is now a pending investigation. 19 Q. To what agency? 20 A. That's none of your business. I am 21 sure that when you are served with the subpoena 22 you will know what agency it is, Mr. Bowles. You 23 are going to be running. You will probably flee 24 to Mexico given the way you act in situations. 25 Q. Okay, Mr. Scarff, let's get on with 2795 1 the deposition here. 2 A. Are you having fun here, Mr. Bowles? 3 You should wear -- 4 Q. Tell us about auditing first of all. 5 What's the difference between auditing and 6 processing, Mr. Scarff? 7 A. Auditing and processing are to me the 8 same thing. The only difference between assist 9 processing, where you are sit, you are forced to 10 sit there for long periods of time while a man 11 touches you in various parts of your body saying 12 "Feel my finger." "Feel my finger." "Feel my 13 finger" over and over and over again, auditing is 14 where you sit there and you are asked questions 15 and you are expected to answer questions. And you 16 are told to consider various situations on how you 17 would deal with a particular incident. And you 18 have your hands on two soup can type of things and 19 it's all being recorded on a funky device referred 20 to as an E-meter which the Church of Scientology 21 says has all the credibility in the world and we 22 all know it's a piece of junk. It has no 23 relevance whatsoever. 24 Q. Did you think it was a piece of junk 25 then? 2796 1 A. I didn't even know what it was at the 2 time. I thought at the time it was like a lie 3 detector, but I was told it records electrical 4 impulses in the body and it helps to register 5 things. And I was giving a lot of personal 6 information. I discussed family relationships. I 7 discussed sexual relationships, and of course, I 8 was told all of these things would be held 9 confidential. 10 Q. Let's talk about this so-called 11 processing that you are now describing. This is 12 the touching? 13 A. Assist processing. 14 Q. Assist processing. How did that 15 work? Did you have your eyes open at the time? 16 A. Yes, I had my eyes opened. I was 17 told to stare at a black dot that had been put on 18 the wall. It's a form of hypnosis, Mr. Bowles. 19 Q. Have you ever been hypnotized before, 20 Mr. Scarff? 21 A. Yes, I believe I have. 22 Q. Ever been hypnotized by a 23 psychologist? 24 A. Not that I can recall. 25 Q. You might have but you can't recall? 2797 1 A. Well, Mr. Bowles, during the time 2 that I was in Scientology, I felt that I underwent 3 all kinds of hypnosis, but I didn't realize it at 4 the time. 5 Q. So you had your eyes open and you 6 were looking at a black dot? 7 A. A black dot on the wall. I was told 8 not to sway. I was not to move. I was not to 9 move my hands. I was to simply stare at that 10 black dot for hours on end while a person touched 11 me. You are getting off on this. Are you -- 12 Q. You are just lying because it doesn't 13 work this way. 14 A. Are you getting horny here, 15 Mr. Bowles? Is this making you horny? 16 Q. It's not making me horny. Let's get 17 on with the deposition. 18 A. Don't interrupt me when I have an 19 answer, Mr. Bowles. Grow up and act your age, 20 sir. I have already said on record that in assist 21 processing not only was I touched on my neck, my 22 shoulder, my head, hands went down my pants. They 23 went up my shirt. You know what it is. You know 24 how the game is played so don't sit there like a 25 little angel and lie. How dare you? 2798 1 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 2 A. You are a sick pervert. 3 Q. Are you a homosexual, Mr. Scarff? 4 A. Are you, Mr. Bowles? Are you 5 attracted to me? You keep winking. Are you 6 attracted to me? Do you get off on me, 7 Mr. Bowles. 8 Q. Are you a homosexual, yes or no? 9 A. Are you, Mr. Bowles, yes or no? 10 Q. I am not going to answer your 11 question. 12 A. I am not going to answer your 13 question. I consider that personal. That's none 14 of your damn business. 15 Q. Do you claim you were homosexually 16 assaulted in this so-called assist processing that 17 you went through? 18 A. I have never claimed that I was 19 homosexually assaulted during assist processing. 20 Q. Let's take a look at your testimony. 21 We will get this straightened out. All right. I 22 want you to read from Page 903, Line 21 to Line 1 23 of Page 905. 24 A. One second, please. What numbers 25 were they? 2799 1 MR. BOWLES: Let me see it again, Bob. 2 MR. CALHOUN: 903, 21 to 905, 1. 3 MR. BOWLES: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: I still didn't hear you, sir. 5 903 what number? 6 MR. CALHOUN: 21. 7 THE WITNESS: To what? 8 MR. CALHOUN: 905, 1. 9 THE WITNESS: "Q. And did the 10 touching of the private areas 11 occur on more than one 12 occasion? 13 "A. Yes. Two or 14 three times that I can recall 15 being touched. There was one 16 physical problem that I had. It 17 was as a result of those 18 sessions, and I didn't 19 understand, because they told me 20 that sometimes when you are 21 dealing with things in a very 22 mental sense that sometimes 23 physical manifestations occur, 24 and they told me that or the 25 coach told me that I had, for 2800 1 example, if you had pain through 2 various parts of the body, that 3 a person can do touch processes 4 on you and touch you in the 5 neck, for example, and all that 6 pain would leave the various 7 parts and become very 8 centralized in the neck. And 9 sometimes a touch would bring 10 about a boil or a red scar, and 11 it would be all centralized in 12 the neck. And through the touch 13 processing you could eventually 14 eradicate that focal point of 15 pain. And that manifestation of 16 an injury in that one place. 17 But that too was a good sign 18 because if your body was racked 19 in pain and through touch 20 processing you were able to 21 bring all that pain to one focal 22 point, then you wouldn't have to 23 go over the entire body. You 24 could simply focus on one 25 point. 2801 1 "And one physical 2 manifestation that I had coming 3 out of those sessions was anal 4 bleeding and hemorrhoids. And I 5 even went to the health care 6 facility at Portland State 7 University and was treated for 8 it." 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. Thank you. So, are you claiming by 11 that testimony that you were homosexually 12 assaulted in assist processing? 13 A. I am claiming, Mr. Bowles, that I 14 believe that I was assaulted during that 15 processing, but I can't prove it. 16 Q. When was the first time you had anal 17 sex, Mr. Scarff? 18 A. Mr. Bowles, that's none of your damn 19 business. 20 Q. Was it prior to this claimed 21 session? 22 A. That is none of your business, 23 Mr. Bowles. That is personal information. You 24 know it. So let's get on to something that's 25 relevant to this deposition, sir. 2802 1 Q. Were you engaging in anal sex in 1982 2 prior to this session -- 3 A. Mr. Bowles -- 4 Q. -- that you claim occurred? 5 A. -- as the judge has ruled, what is 6 good for the goose is good for the gander. Why 7 don't we talk about your infidelity with Rona. 8 Why don't we talk about you cheat on your wife. 9 Does Rona know that you play around in the 10 office? Do we want to get this on record that you 11 cheat around in the office and you cheat on your 12 wife, sir. That is well known within the OSA that 13 you do that. Do we get on record your sexual 14 experiences? What is good for the goose is good 15 for the gander. The judge has already ruled on 16 that sir. If you are going to talk about it, why 17 don't you tell me about Rona. 18 Here you are, Mr. Calhoun. 19 Q. So you are refusing to answer any 20 questions about your homosexual experiences, 21 Mr. Scarff? 22 A. Yes, I am. Unless you are willing to 23 discuss your sexual life with your wife and other 24 women that you run around with. 25 Q. Those are your conditions? 2803 1 A. So you are admitting now on record 2 that you do that? 3 Q. No. Those are your conditions? If I 4 talk about my sex life, you will talk about 5 yours? 6 A. No, Mr. Bowles, because you have 7 already said that you will not touch on the 8 infidelity that you have had with your wife on 9 record. You are not going to discuss that and 10 it's none of my business. Well, in retrospect, my 11 sexual life is none of your business. So move on. 12 Q. All right. Afraid to say you are 13 going to be mistaken on that, Mr. Scarff. If you 14 claim that the church is somehow involved in 15 assaulting you homosexually. 16 A. I never said that, Mr. Bowles, that's 17 your characterization of it. 18 Q. Are you going to tell us now that you 19 are withdrawing that claim? 20 A. No, not on the all. What I have 21 claimed, Mr. Bowles, and you are misrepresenting 22 the testimony here. Is that I was told that 23 certain mental things produce physical 24 manifestations. And when I came out of a session, 25 I had physical manifestations which are in the 2804 1 record now, and quite frankly, I have a belief of 2 what happened, but I can't prove it. That's my 3 claim, sir. 4 Q. You believe you were homosexually 5 assaulted; is that right? 6 A. Yes, I believe that. 7 Q. That's because of the physical 8 symptoms you claim happened after the session; is 9 that right? 10 A. I believe that, sir, yes. 11 Q. Just to make the record clear. 12 What other banks have you done business with since 13 1980? 14 A. I think I am going to take a break, 15 Mr. Bowles, and talk to my counsel about whether 16 that is information you are privy to. Because I 17 think that's personal information, sir. So 18 instead of doing that, instead of disrupting this 19 deposition, I am simply going to assert privacy 20 here. And if you want to go to court and the 21 court rules that I need to give you that 22 information, then I will do it. But I don't want 23 to interrupt the deposition here and waste your 24 time. So I am going to assert the privacy 25 privilege. Say that's none of your business. If 2805 1 the judge rules differently, then we will take it 2 from there. 3 Q. Okay. So you are refusing to answer 4 the questions at this time; is that right? 5 A. Until the judge rules otherwise, 6 yes. 7 Q. Okay. How much did auditing cost in 8 1982? 9 A. They quoted me $100 an hour. I also 10 was quoted $125 an hour. But I don't recall when 11 it changed to $125 an hour. 12 Q. How much were you paying? 13 A. I wasn't paying anything. I was told 14 one of two things. One, that the assist 15 processing I was not going to be charged for 16 because they wanted to help me. They told me it 17 was a therapy relationship. 18 And, two, I was told that everyone 19 goes on credit if they can't find the money for it 20 right now or they go on staff and they pay for it 21 through that way. Through a work study type of 22 relationship. So I wasn't paying anything that I 23 recall until 1983 when I turned over NDSL and GSL 24 checks. 25 Q. Do you have records of these NDSL and 2806 1 GSL checks? 2 A. No, sir. But as I have said before, 3 there is a government agency that does have them 4 and that is pending right now in an 5 investigation. 6 Q. So you have no files with regard to 7 any student loan -- 8 A. It's pending, Mr. Bowles. 9 Q. Let me finish the question. You have 10 no files in your possession regarding any student 11 loans between the years of 1979 and 1985? 12 A. I have copies of contracts that I 13 have signed with Portland State University. And 14 my attorney also has copies of that stuff. And 15 there is a government agency which has received 16 copies of everything that I have and there is a 17 pending investigation with that agency right now 18 with regards to the Church of Scientology which I 19 found out has been pending for quite some time 20 even prior to the time that I contacted them. So 21 this stuff will eventually come out and you will 22 be in handcuffs and we will see what happens from 23 there. 24 Q. Mr. Scarff, are you done with that 25 answer now? 2807 1 A. Are you getting your jollies now? 2 Q. Well, let's go on to the next 3 question. 4 Ever lied to church representatives, 5 Mr. Scarff? 6 A. When? 7 Q. Ever. Church of Scientology 8 representatives, ever lied to them? 9 A. Not that I can recall. 10 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-50. 11 Do you have the original of that. 12 THE REPORTER: Down there. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. This is the notes, I guess, on your 15 lawsuit. Was this written after this first draft 16 that you described that Randy Spencer supposedly 17 drafted? 18 A. I don't know. Let me look at the 19 lawsuit. What exhibit is the lawsuit? Do I need 20 to find it? 21 Q. 16. 22 A. I believe at the time that I wrote 23 this it was after, one, the first or the second 24 draft of the lawsuit, yes. 25 Q. Which one was it, the first or the 2808 1 second? 2 A. I don't recall. I believe it was 3 after the first one because David Butterworth 4 asked me for my recommendations on how to make the 5 lawsuit more appropriate to the jurisdiction of 6 Oregon where it could be tried successfully in 7 Oregon courts versus the California courts. 8 Q. Okay. So your prior testimony was 9 that the first draft was too similar to other 10 suits and you wanted something or that the 11 decision was to customize it to Oregon. Is that a 12 fair statement? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Is there anything in this Exhibit-50 15 that's false? By the way, this is in your 16 handwriting, isn't it? 17 A. This is my handwriting. 18 Q. You prepared this document? 19 A. Yes. Except for the telephone 20 numbers on top. I didn't do that. 21 Q. Okay. 22 A. I don't know whose phone numbers 23 those are. 24 Well, the basis of a lot of 25 information in this is untrue. But I guess I 2809 1 don't know what you are asking me, because I was 2 in this scheme along with you, Mr. Bowles, and the 3 OSA in filing this SLAPS suit which had no merit 4 whatsoever against the Cult Awareness Network. So 5 what are you asking me, sir? 6 Q. What in this document is false? 7 A. Well, I think Paragraph 3 reflects a 8 false statement in the fact that we are trying to 9 allege Cynthia Kisser, that Cynthia Kisser should 10 be added as a defendant in the lawsuit. That it 11 had some bearing or some merit to file a lawsuit 12 with Cynthia Kisser involved. And it doesn't 13 because -- never mind. 14 Q. What else is false? 15 A. Well, Paragraph 4 is definitely 16 false. And this is a subject from a conversation 17 I had with David Butterworth who claimed that he 18 had evidence that Wayne Barber was a crook and 19 that he had laundered money. 20 And I state right here that "Pursuant 21 to the lawsuit, an investigation needs to be made 22 in retrieving copies of the charter of the 23 nonprofit 'child help' organization established 24 by the Greeks and Wayne Barber with which they 25 laundered money for the behalf of the Positive 2810 1 Action Center." That's false. To my knowledge. 2 Now, Mr. Butterworth claims that he 3 has got evidence that Wayne Barber has laundered 4 money, and I don't know whether he has evidence of 5 that or not but that's what he claims. 6 Q. All right. So you wrote this without 7 any evidence of that; right? 8 A. I wrote this based upon the content 9 of a conversation that I had with a Church of 10 Scientology official whom you work with, 11 Mr. Bowles. You work with David Butterworth so 12 you would know whether this is true or not. 13 Mr. Bowles, you know as well as I do 14 that you were involved in all of this. And that 15 you know the relationship you have with David 16 Butterworth and you also know, Mr. Bowles, the 17 relationship I had with David Butterworth. 18 David Butterworth claims to have 19 evidence about Wayne Barber something that I knew 20 nothing about. The only thing that I knew about 21 Wayne Barber was the fact that a book was written 22 titled "A Secret Agenda" about the Nixon 23 administration and Watergate break-ins. And Wayne 24 Barber was footnoted in the book as being some 25 kind of detective in the Watergate investigation. 2811 1 Mr. Butterworth claimed to have more evidence 2 linking Wayne Barber to money laundering. 3 So this paragraph is reflective of 4 the conversation that I had with a gentleman that 5 you work with, Mr. Bowles. 6 Q. What else is false in here? 7 A. Well, I think 5 reflects a falsity in 8 that we should involve individuals in a lawsuit 9 which have no reason for being in the lawsuit. In 10 fact, I will read this sentence here. "In doing 11 so, we should concentrate this in such a way that 12 these individuals would be 'pressed' to defend 13 themselves which would be a costly maneuver for 14 the Greeks and their cohorts." 15 And again, that simply reflects what 16 is already on the record with the fact that 17 Timothy Bowles, Ken Moxon and the other attorneys 18 for Bowles & Moxon have filed all these frivolous, 19 bad faith lawsuits in order to financially ruin 20 the people that they are attacking. It's simply a 21 means to attack someone financially, 22 psychologically and try to ruin them. And this 23 simply addresses that. 24 And as far as in here about the $1 25 million liability policy that the Greeks have, I 2812 1 didn't know about that. Eugene Ingram told me 2 that he was able to investigate insurance 3 companies that represent both the Greeks and 4 represent the Cult Awareness Network. And he knew 5 what policies they had and what it covered. And 6 so this was a means by which you, Mr. Bowles, 7 could sue these individuals and swim around these 8 policies in order to attack them on a personal 9 level, make them personally responsible for 10 damages. 11 Q. Let's go to the fifth page. 12 A. You don't want to address the rest of 13 this, sir? 14 Q. There are lots of other falsities in 15 there; is that right, Mr. Scarff? 16 A. Reflective on the active 17 investigation that I was involved in with both you 18 and Mr. Butterworth. Yes, there are a lot of 19 falsities here. 20 Q. So the point is -- 21 A. The point is you don't want to 22 address -- 23 Q. Let me ask you a question. This 24 document is loaded with falsehoods, isn't it? 25 A. Well, no. It's not loaded with 2813 1 falsehoods. It's loaded with reflections of 2 statements that had been made to me by your law 3 firm and David Butterworth. And this is simply -- 4 this isn't loaded with falsehoods. It's simply a 5 means by which we plan to go after somebody. So 6 it's two different things. 7 For example, the third page refers to 8 Wayne Barber's relationship with Senator Robert 9 and Elizabeth Dole. Well, that to my knowledge is 10 true. Anne Greek told me that. So that's not a 11 falsehood. 12 Q. Okay. There are false statements in 13 here, aren't there? Yes or no, are there false 14 statements in this exhibit or not? 15 A. Can you show some patience and let me 16 read the exhibit so I can give you a truthful 17 statement. 18 Q. Have you already testified there are 19 false statements in here, Mr. Scarff? 20 A. Let me read the statement then we 21 will get on with it. 22 Q. We will withdraw that statement and 23 get on with the next one. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Let's go to the Page No. 5. Would 2814 1 you read from the star where it says 8 encircled 2 down to the word "character assassination." 3 A. I'm sorry, say that again. 4 Q. Page 5, you are on Page 7. 5 A. I am counting pages here. Okay. 6 Q. There is a circled eight and read 7 from that to the words "character assassination," 8 please. 9 A. "No. 8. We, or rather 'I,' 10 can sue the Greeks for 11 intentional infliction of 12 emotional distress through 13 comments made through the media 14 and comments made to prospective 15 employers which resulted in 16 slander and character 17 assassination." 18 Q. Okay. Is that a false assertion, 19 Mr. Scarff? 20 A. I think it's true and false. 21 Q. What's false about it? 22 A. Certainly I was distressed with the 23 fact that the Greeks had spoken to the 24 archdiocese, but the fact that it has intentional 25 infliction of emotional distress underlined, these 2815 1 were reflective of conversations I had with not 2 only Ken Moxon, Aron Mason, David Butterworth, 3 Eugene Ingram and I believe even you, sir, 4 Mr. Bowles, that in the State of Oregon, because I 5 didn't know this, this is a legal term that was 6 given to me, in the State of Oregon one can sue 7 someone for intentional infliction of emotional 8 distress. It's a legal terminology. I am not a 9 lawyer so I wouldn't have known this. And that in 10 the State of Oregon, you can prosecute someone 11 under that what you call ruling or something. Or 12 clause. 13 And where it says, "Intentional 14 infliction" was based upon a conversation I had 15 with various members of the Church of 16 Scientology. 17 The basis of this paragraph is 18 related to the fact that I was upset with the 19 Greeks for communicating with the archdiocese of 20 Oregon about my relationship to the Church of 21 Scientology which resulted in my being dismissed 22 as a candidate to the Catholic priesthood. 23 Where it talks about slander and 24 character assassination, these are legal terms 25 that only a lawyer or someone that works in the 2816 1 legal profession would know about. I didn't know 2 anything about this stuff. I didn't know where 3 any of this could hold up. The only way I could 4 have gotten this information and known that we 5 could use it was the fact that I had 6 conversations, and I can support this with my 7 numerous telephone bills which shows the numerous 8 phone calls I made to Bowles & Moxon, that it was 9 supported by you, sir, and your law firm. 10 Q. And you claim that you made phone 11 calls to me that show up on those bills; is that 12 right? 13 A. I have said on record already, 14 Mr. Bowles, that telephone records do not show, as 15 you well know, the names of individuals you have 16 called. It simply refers to the phone numbers 17 that you have called. 18 Q. Which numbers did you call to talk to 19 me? 20 A. Excuse me? 21 Q. Which numbers did you call to talk to 22 me? 23 A. Let me pull the exhibit, sir. Do you 24 know it or do I need to look through everything? 25 Q. Exhibit-86. 2817 1 A. 86, personal contacts? 2 Q. 86 is the Lynn Garrett phone bill. 3 A. Actually, I would like to refer to 4 the exhibit that says personal contacts on it. It 5 has personal contacts at the top. 6 Q. That is the first page of your 7 Exhibit-4. 8 A. I don't have Exhibit-4. Right in the 9 top right-hand corner it says Area Code (213) 10 661-4030. And when I was faxing things back and 11 forth in communications with Bowles & Moxon, I 12 used the fax number (213) 662-6419. 13 Q. Okay. And let's go to Exhibit-86. 14 A. Okay. 15 Q. Are there phone calls on here which 16 you claim you made to me? 17 A. Not on this specific phone bill, no. 18 It has the Office of Special Affairs, which I 19 called three times, which on the second page, 20 Office of Special Affairs I called one, two, 21 three, four, five times. Office of Special 22 Affairs on the third page I called one, two, 23 three, four, five, six, seven times. 24 And Mr. Bowles, it's already been 25 documented the fact that you are a member of the 2818 1 OSA in which I called seven times, at least seven 2 times this month. And this is only one phone 3 bill. I am now in the process of getting all my 4 phone bills for the last two years, which will 5 show in great detail the numerous phone calls 6 which were made to both the OSA in Los Angeles, 7 the OSA in various parts of the country and also 8 Bowles & Moxon. And I simply say you are hard 9 pressed to dispute something that's documented on 10 telephone bills, sir. 11 Q. Okay. So you claim you talked to me 12 about this complaint in which months of the year? 13 A. I believe it was December, January of 14 '92 and February of '92, if I am not mistaken, 15 because it was during that time, Mr. Bowles, that 16 you were communicating with Mike Gordon who you 17 used to work with, according to Gwen Mayfield, and 18 that Gwen was actively trying to find an attorney 19 in the State of Oregon that would work with you in 20 bringing this lawsuit to the courts. The problem 21 that we had is that most attorneys didn't want to 22 touch something that had anything to do with the 23 Church of Scientology given the extremely poor 24 reputation Scientology has in the court system. 25 And so she had a real difficult time doing that. 2819 1 But. 2 Q. So your answer is you talked to me in 3 December of '91, January and February of '92; is 4 that right? 5 A. That's what I believe, yes. 6 Q. Let's go to Page 10 of Exhibit-50. 7 By the way, you talked to me at my office in 8 Los Angeles; is that right? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. That's what your phone bill is going 11 to show? 12 A. The phone bill is going to show that 13 I called Bowles & Moxon in Los Angeles. But I 14 notice that your phone, you have changed your 15 phone numbers to try to hide something. 16 Q. Let's go to Page 10. Take a look at 17 the number that's circled 14. Could you read from 18 that point to the next page where it says "once 19 and for all" at the top? 20 A. I'm sorry, I am missing you. 21 Q. Start at the bottom of Page 10. It 22 says, "Once all the information," read from that 23 to the end of that passage which says, "once and 24 for all." 25 A. Okay. "No. 14. Once all 2820 1 the information is disseminated 2 and the complaint drafted, you 3 can fax it to Gwen, and I will 4 call you back on it and make 5 whatever arrangement are 6 necessary to file it. We can 7 later negotiate on distribution 8 of settlement proceeds over 9 legal contacts are written up. 10 Be assured that I don't see this 11 as a get rich scheme. I am 12 excited, however, to 13 detrimentally ditch these 14 buttwipes once and for all." 15 Q. Is there any passage of that that's 16 false? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Let's go to the first page. 19 A. I would like to take a break. It's 20 been over 45 minutes. 21 Q. Let's try to make the break short and 22 we can get through faster. 23 A. Mr. Bowles, I will take the break as 24 soon as I can. But you are not in the position of 25 telling me how long to take the break. 2821 1 Q. Let's try to limit it to ten 2 minutes. 3 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 4 The time is 11:09 A.M. 5 (Recess taken.) 6 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 7 The time is 11:37 A.M. 8 BY MR. BOWLES: 9 Q. By my watch that took almost a half 10 hour. Is there any particular reason it took half 11 hour for the break? 12 A. Yes, Counsel. With all due respect 13 you are in no position to tell me how long I can 14 speak with counsel or not. So let's move on. 15 Q. Were you speaking with your counsel 16 or -- 17 A. Yes, I was. 18 Q. Or were you speaking with counsel for 19 Dr. Geertz? 20 A. I have answered the question. Let's 21 move on, sir. 22 Q. Were you speaking with counsel for 23 Dr. Geertz along with your own counsel? 24 A. No, I wasn't. But you can 25 mischaracterize it all you want. You have done so 2822 1 in great depth already. 2 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 3 Let's go to Exhibit-50 again. First 4 page of that exhibit. After the word "Dave," 5 would you please read that paragraph. 6 A. "Per my meeting with 7 Portland attorney, Dave Urman, a 8 friend from my days at Portland 9 State University I make the 10 following recommendations for 11 drafting a lawsuit." 12 Q. Did you draft this lawsuit after 13 meeting with David Urman? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Is there anything false about the 16 first paragraph that you just read? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. The first paragraph you just read, 19 sir. 20 A. The first paragraph, no. 21 Q. You mentioned earlier about this 22 auditing with an E-meter. What does E-meter stand 23 for? 24 A. E-meter is electro something meter. 25 I don't have the full name for it. 2823 1 Q. Electro something meter. 2 A. I want to say ergo something meter, 3 but -- I can't tell you what it is. 4 Q. Okay. So you claim to have been in 5 counseling sessions with this E-meter; is that 6 right? 7 A. I have had counseling sessions with 8 it. I have even since leaving Scientology and 9 going over my testimony with various ex-members of 10 the Church of Scientology have even played with 11 the E-meter after leaving Scientology. And I have 12 had access to several E-meters in which I have 13 showed investigators involved in criminal 14 investigations exactly what it is and what they 15 are. Particularly in reference to one of the 16 E-meters called the Mark Super No. 6, I believe. 17 And I think the general feeling was it was just a 18 piece of garbage. 19 Q. Okay. Who are these ex-members you 20 discussed this E-meter with? 21 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. The 22 record speaks for itself. 23 Q. You are refusing to answer that 24 question? 25 A. Yes. Privacy. 2824 1 Q. How many were there? 2 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 3 Speaks for the record. The record speaks for 4 itself. 5 Q. You are refusing to answer that 6 question? 7 A. Yes, sir, I am. It's private. 8 Q. So describe to me how this worked 9 when you were in a session with the so-called 10 E-meter. 11 A. I sat there with an E-meter. I held 12 two soup can-like things. They were silver. They 13 are attached to this lie detector similar device. 14 And they asked me questions about my family. 15 Q. Who is they? 16 A. The auditors. 17 Q. Was there more than one at the same 18 time? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. How many were there? 21 A. One. 22 Q. I asked you if there were more than 23 one. You said yes. Was there more than one or 24 not. 25 A. Let's not misrepresent the testimony, 2825 1 Mr. Bowles. I said there is one. Let's move on 2 with it. 3 Q. Where was -- 4 A. You are supposed to ask questions not 5 intimate witnesses, sir. 6 Q. I am trying to get your testimony 7 straight. Where was the counselor sitting? 8 A. Right next to me, sir, facing me. 9 Q. Right next to you facing you. Was 10 this person across the table or was the person 11 next to you? 12 A. It was a table. The E-meter was 13 sitting right here. I sat right here and the 14 coach sat right there looking at me, asking me 15 questions. And I would answer questions. And she 16 would write down little notes based upon the 17 little finger that was moving on this piece of 18 garbage you call an accredited E-meter. And they 19 would ask me how would you have dealt with that 20 situation better? Let's take, for example, you 21 did this to your mother at the time. How would 22 you have reacted then? And there was all kinds of 23 hypothesis thrown at me about how to deal with 24 particular situations and to imagine myself in 25 various situations and how I deal with it. And it 2826 1 was supposed to pull up the engrams by the little 2 E-meter that was flashing about. Whatever 3 bothered me. 4 Q. Were you watching the needle? 5 A. No, sir. I couldn't. The needle was 6 being observed by the coach. 7 Q. How do you know what it was doing? 8 A. I don't know. But I know how an 9 E-meter works. I have had access to it after 10 leaving Scientology. 11 Q. Were you told how it worked then? 12 A. I was told how it works. I was told 13 that it registers mental engrams. That it 14 registers conflicts in my mental state; that it 15 points out things that haven't been addressed yet 16 and that through this E-meter I would be able to 17 become clear of all my problems. 18 Q. So you have a table. And you have 19 one person sitting at one side and you are sitting 20 on the other; is that right? 21 A. Sir. 22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 23 testimony. 24 THE WITNESS: That's correct. It's been 25 asked and answered. 2827 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. You are sitting opposite the table of 3 this person; is that right? 4 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 5 testimony. 6 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered. I am not 7 refusing anything. I have already answered your 8 question. 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. Are you refusing to answer the 11 question whether you were opposite the table with 12 this person? 13 A. You asked it already and I answered 14 it. 15 Q. And this person was referred to as 16 the coach; is that right? 17 A. I refer to it as my coach, yes. 18 Q. How did the church refer to that 19 person? 20 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 21 speculation. 22 THE WITNESS: As an auditor. 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. How did that person refer to her or 25 himself? 2828 1 A. As an auditor. 2 Q. What else was on the table, if 3 anything, besides the E-meter? 4 A. Nothing. Nothing. 5 Q. So this person is just sitting there 6 operating this meter and then you were opposite 7 with these cans; is that what right happened? 8 A. As I said before, I had my hands on 9 two soup cans -- two things that looked like soup 10 cans. There was an auditor there with a note pad 11 in her lap and she was writing things down based 12 on what she saw on the E-meter. And she asked me 13 questions and she, I saw her scribbling things 14 down on the pad which didn't make a lot of sense 15 to me but she said it made sense to her. 16 Q. Was there anything else on the table 17 besides the meter? 18 A. Not that I can recall, no. 19 Q. You are certain about that? 20 A. I have answered the question. 21 Q. Now, you described in your direct 22 testimony this supposed procedure for TR 23 bullbaiting. You remember that? 24 A. Yes. In fact, I can refer to it in 25 the exhibit, too. 2829 1 Q. When you were being bullbaited, was 2 there somebody in front of you? 3 A. There was someone in front of me, the 4 same person was a side of me, the person was 5 behind me. 6 Q. Did you say inside of me? 7 A. Aside. Aside. 8 Q. I'm sorry. 9 A. You need glasses and hear. 10 Q. I didn't hear you. 11 A. I know you didn't. Go ahead. I 12 answered your question. 13 Q. So this person was all over the 14 place; is that right? 15 A. This person was behind me yelling 16 things. This person was aside of me and the 17 person was in front of me. And the entire time I 18 was staring at the wall. And I was told not to 19 react. 20 In fact, at one point this person sat 21 down, she had her knees touching my knees and I 22 was told to rest and to stare right at her and not 23 flinch, not flinch at all no matter what she did, 24 no matter what Tim Bowles has done during this 25 entire deposition like staring at people. Don't 2830 1 let it bother you. Just focus in like I am doing 2 now, sir. And not let it bother you. 3 Q. You are looking at a spot on the wall 4 then? 5 A. Not only on the wall but also as I am 6 doing right now, Mr. Bowles. I am staring right 7 at you. I am looking right through your eyes, 8 sir. I am to remain focused and not to be 9 distracted by my external surroundings, to be 10 yelled, at to be cussed at, to be touched. Not 11 to -- 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. I mean -- 14 Q. Fine. Was there any spot on the 15 wall? Was there like a picture on the wall or 16 some object you needed to look at? 17 A. No. They took a black pen just like 18 yours, sir, and they put a dot on the wall. 19 Q. Were you in a course room with other 20 people there? 21 A. No, it was private. 22 Q. Just you and this other person? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And that's how they were doing that? 25 That was the procedure? 2831 1 A. You know the procedure. 2 Q. I am asking you. I want the truth. 3 A. Mr. Bowles, you have accused me of 4 bullbaiting you. So you know that is procedure. 5 You have already said on record that I was 6 bullbaiting you so you know that exists. 7 Q. That was the normal procedure in 1982 8 when you took a communications course? Each 9 person would go into private rooms and do this 10 bullbaiting? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 13 testimony. 14 BY MR. BOWLES: 15 Q. How do you know that? 16 A. Because I was bullbaited. 17 Q. How do you know other people were 18 doing that in private room? 19 A. Well, I assume if they were doing it 20 with me -- 21 Q. You're assuming; is that right? 22 A. Why would they do it to me, 23 Mr. Bowles, if they weren't doing it with 24 everybody else? Why would they charge people to do 25 shit like this if they weren't doing it with 2832 1 everybody else? Are you saying that I was so 2 unique that I was the only person that got to do 3 this? Are you claiming that? Are you so stupid 4 to think the world is going to believe something 5 like that? That I was so unique that I was the 6 only one that got to do this? 7 Hey, let's refer to the exhibit that 8 deals with bullbaiting, if I may. 9 Q. You can do that on redirect. Let's 10 go to the next question. 11 A. No, sir. You have asked me a 12 question about bullbaiting. And as a witness I 13 have a right to refer to the exhibit, sir, and I 14 am going to do that. 15 Q. You have an obligation to answer the 16 questions asked of you. 17 A. I have a right to refer to exhibits 18 as advised to me by my counsel, Mr. Bowles. 19 Q. Who is your counsel, Mr. Scarff? 20 A. Mr. Bowles, you asked one question. 21 I am going to go question by question by 22 question. 23 Q. The question is withdrawn. 24 A. Are you sure? 25 Q. Yes. 2833 1 A. Positive? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. Okay. I thought so, because when it 4 comes to the truth, you simply don't want to refer 5 to it. But it's on record. 6 Q. Do you know off the top of your head 7 if there is any exhibit in this deposition that 8 has to do with bullbaiting? 9 A. I believe so. Can I refer to it? 10 Q. No. Because I don't want you to go 11 spending a half an hour walking through exhibits 12 making an excuse for more delay in this 13 deposition. 14 A. Mr. Bowles, you know where the 15 exhibit is. Why don't you tell me what number it 16 is. 17 Q. There isn't one that I know of, 18 Mr. Scarff. 19 A. I believe there is. So if you let me 20 have the opportunity to find it, I will show it to 21 you. 22 Q. The question is withdrawn and you can 23 tell me after lunch if you care so much to tell me 24 more about bullbaiting. You find the exhibit and 25 tell me after lunch all about it. How does that 2834 1 sound? 2 A. You guarantee me I can do that? 3 Q. If you find the exhibit, then we will 4 talk about it further. 5 A. Okay. Thank you. I am glad you 6 brought it up. I will refer to it after lunch, 7 sir. 8 Q. I would like you to draw me a floor 9 plan for what you claim to have been the office 10 arrangement of the Office of Special Affairs on 11 November 17th, 1991 when you claim you met with 12 David Butterworth and Gene Ingram to plan the 13 so-called murder of Cynthia Kisser. 14 A. And have been advised by counsel that 15 I am not required in testimony particularly in 16 cross-examination to do demonstrations, 17 exhibitions or anything for your pleasure. 18 Q. Whose counsel recommended that, sir? 19 A. I am not going to reveal the 20 counsel's name. Get the judge -- 21 Q. It couldn't have been from the 22 speaking objection that we heard yesterday -- 23 A. It's nobody from this law firm. In 24 fact, this attorney is not in the L.A. area, sir. 25 Q. Where is this person located? 2835 1 A. If the judge makes a ruling and 2 demands that I speak it, then I will speak it. 3 Until then, asked and answered. 4 Q. So you are refusing to answer the 5 question? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. How many auditing sessions did you 8 have, Mr. Scarff? 9 A. I can only recall three occasions, 10 sir. And then I stopped doing it. 11 Q. That's your truthful testimony? 12 A. That's only what I can recall simply 13 because it made no sense to me at the time. I was 14 driven not to do things that made no sense to me 15 at the time. And they still don't make sense and 16 you still do it. 17 Q. Well, you said something different 18 last week. Let's see what that is here. Just so 19 we get your truth really out there, Mr. Scarff. 20 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 21 THE WITNESS: I enjoy your performance. Do 22 you want me to stand and applaud you again? 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. Take a look at Page 1918, read from 25 Lines 4 to Line 7. 2836 1 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you. 2 THE WITNESS: "Q. Now, how many 3 auditing sessions do you recall 4 having with the Church of 5 Scientology? 6 "A. I believe it was 7 15 because it was in a package 8 of 15 sessions." 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. So what is your true testimony, three 11 or 15? 12 A. It remains the same, Mr. Bowles. It 13 says here, and I read at Line 6 "A. I believe" 14 and I said in the last testimony that to my 15 recollection that's what it was. I don't recall. 16 Q. So this week it's three? 17 A. No, sir -- 18 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. It 19 misstates the testimony. 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, you are misstating 21 the testimony. Mr. Bowles, I am not going to even 22 answer that question because it's very clear on 23 camera and it's very clear to the people present 24 except for the fact that you and your paralegal 25 that you are toying and misrepresenting my 2837 1 testimony. So what's the point of answering the 2 question when you are simply going to sit there 3 and lie and misrepresent the testimony, sir? 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. You are refusing to answer that 6 question? 7 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. 8 Q. You are refusing to answer it? 9 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. I 10 only can speak based upon my recollection at the 11 time. It may be faulty. I don't remember 12 everything that happened. I can only say what I 13 believe to be true and that's what I have done. 14 If you want to make that a given, that's your 15 mischaracterization and that will show in the 16 record. And the only person you are going to be 17 fooling is yourself. So go for it. Feel free. 18 Have fun. 19 Q. Was your recollection faulty last 20 week, Mr. Scarff? 21 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative? 22 THE WITNESS: I am not going to even answer 23 that question. I am not going to dignify that 24 stupid question with a response. 25 BY MR. BOWLES: 2838 1 Q. Now, you claim to have been in a 2 three-hour meeting with Mr. Moxon; is that right? 3 A. It was a three-hour meeting with both 4 you, Moxon, Bartilson and Mason, I believe, and 5 Butterworth and Ingram on December 20th which was 6 a Saturday morning. 7 Q. And that started at 8:00 A.M.; is 8 that right? 9 A. I recall it was around eight o'clock, 10 yes. 11 Q. Who was the first to arrive? 12 A. David Butterworth, Eugene Ingram and 13 I arrived first. 14 Q. I want you to draw me a floor plan of 15 the offices in which this supposed meeting took 16 place. 17 A. And as I have said before, I am not 18 required to give you any floor plans. I am not 19 required to give you any exhibitions or 20 demonstrations. 21 Q. So you are refusing to do that; is 22 that right? 23 A. I have been told I don't have to. 24 It's not relevant. You are getting into -- 25 Q. I'm sorry, it's not relevant after 2839 1 you accuse myself and my law firm of a plotting a 2 murder? 3 A. Drawing pictures? If the judge says 4 that I am required to give a floor plan, I will be 5 happy to provide the judge with a floor plan. But 6 you, sir, are not a judge, although you seem to 7 think you have the authority to speak as one. So 8 let's move on here. Okay. 9 Q. During this three-hour meeting how 10 was Mr. Moxon addressed by others in the room? 11 A. They referred to him as Rick. I have 12 always referred to him as Ken. 13 Q. So no one else referred to him in the 14 room but you as Ken; is that right? 15 A. I always called him Ken. They called 16 him Rick and I don't know why. Other than he is 17 Kendrick. But I called him Ken. As I have called 18 you Tim. 19 Q. I see. So he never corrected you on 20 that; is that right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Have you ever heard Gene Ingram call 23 him Ken? 24 A. No. He has always referred to him as 25 Rick. 2840 1 Q. So that's different from yesterday, 2 you understand that, don't you? 3 A. I am only saying that I believe they 4 called him Rick or Ken. I don't know. 5 Q. Now you don't know? 6 A. No, I'm sorry. 7 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 8 THE WITNESS: I can only do what I recall. 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. I see. Have you ever spoken with 11 Earl Cooley? 12 A. Not that I can recall. Mr. Cooley 13 was having lunch at the Hilton Hotel during the 14 time that John Carmichael and I were there. And I 15 believe I said hello to him at the Loma County 16 Courthouse when he was trying the Christofferson 17 case, but we haven't had any substantive 18 conversations, no. There would be no reason to. 19 Q. Were you ever among a group of people 20 walking back from the courthouse along with 21 Mr. Cooley? 22 A. Not a group of people. I was with 23 John Carmichael. 24 Q. Were you with Mr. Cooley at the 25 time? 2841 1 A. No. John Carmichael and I went to 2 the Hilton Hotel and Cooley was already there. 3 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of 4 Mr. Cooley walking back from the courthouse after 5 the verdict was rendered in that case? 6 A. I have seen him. I have seen him 7 walk out of the courthouse to the Hilton Hotel, 8 yes. 9 Q. Right. Did you see him walk out of 10 the courthouse to go to the Hilton Hotel after the 11 verdict was rendered in the case? 12 A. I saw him walking in that direction. 13 I believe, it was Mr. Cooley. 14 Q. Did you overhear any of the 15 conversation that took place at that time between 16 Mr. Cooley and anyone else? 17 A. Not that I can recall. 18 Q. Okay. Take a look at Page 1154 to 19 1155 and read from Lines 22 on 1154 to Line 12 on 20 1155. 21 MR. CALHOUN: Thank you. 22 THE WITNESS: 22. "Q. So what 23 happened next in connection with 24 the Church of Scientology? 25 "A. Julie won the 2842 1 case. The ruling was in her 2 favor. She won $42 million 3 against the Church of 4 Scientology. 5 "I accompanied John 6 because John was there on that 7 last day, and John was in the 8 company of Heber Jentzsch and 9 Earl Cooley and another attorney 10 whose name I don't recall. And 11 we walked over to the Hilton 12 Hotel and they were 13 congratulating Earl Cooley for a 14 good job, a job that he had done 15 during the trial. That night I 16 had heard from Mary Weeks that 17 they were going to have a 18 celebration party for Julie 19 Christofferson and I informed 20 John Carmichael what Mary Weeks 21 had told me. And -- I'm 22 sorry." 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. Thank you. So did you or did you not 25 walk back from the courthouse and hear Mr. Cooley 2843 1 being congratulated for a job well done on this 2 trial? 3 A. As I have said before, Mr. Bowles, I 4 can only go based on what I recall. You have 5 refreshed my memory from earlier testimony. And I 6 will admit to it. Yes, I must have. I don't 7 recall that particular event. I can only recall 8 what I remember, but if that's in the testimony, 9 then it must be. 10 Q. So you must have recalled it last 11 week but not this; is that right? 12 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 13 THE WITNESS: No, I am simply going to thank 14 you for refreshing my memory. Because you have 15 the documents in front of me and I haven't read 16 any of this and I haven't refreshed my memory with 17 past stuff. I am only going on memory here and 18 you have helped me refresh it. Thank you. 19 Q. Okay. Where was Mr. Cooley staying 20 at the time? 21 A. I don't know. I believe, and again 22 this is speculation, I believe Carmichael told me 23 they were staying at the Hilton Hotel. I believe 24 that. I am not sure. I didn't see anything with 25 motel receipts or anything like that, but I 2844 1 believe because the Church of Scientology is 2 directly across the street from the Church of 3 Scientology, Mission of Davis that they were 4 staying at the Hilton Hotel. I can't confirm 5 that. 6 Q. So when you testified on direct 7 examination that they were in fact staying at the 8 Hilton Hotel, that was just speculation? 9 A. That was my belief at the time. 10 Q. That was speculation too; right? 11 A. That was my belief at the time. 12 Q. That belief at the time of what, in 13 your testimony or when this occurred in 1985? 14 A. In 1985. Yes. In 1985, sir. 15 Q. You didn't have any personal 16 knowledge, did you? 17 A. No. No. Considering the fact that 18 they would go from the courthouse to the Hilton 19 Hotel and have lunch and drink and that's my 20 understanding that even after that initial time 21 there are other reports of them being in the 22 Hilton Hotel at the time that I naturally assumed 23 they had some relationship with that hotel. 24 Q. You weren't spying on the Church of 25 Scientology then, were you? 2845 1 A. Oh, Mr. Bowles. Grow up. I won't 2 dignify that stupid question with a response. 3 Q. So you are refusing to answer that? 4 A. Mr. Bowles, get your face out of a 5 comic book and deal with reality, sir. Please. 6 Show some integrity here. Do you read comic 7 books? 8 Q. Are you refusing to -- 9 A. Do you read comic books -- 10 Q. Are you refusing to answer the 11 question, Mr. Scarff? 12 A. No. I will answer the question, 13 Mr. Bowles. You are certainly a legend in your 14 own mind and you certainly have a lot of things 15 that stick in your own mind. If you want to 16 mischaracterize my testimony, have fun. So be 17 it. 18 I am going to take a break. I need 19 to go to the restroom. 20 Q. We are now breaking after 20 minutes; 21 is that right, Mr. Scarff? 22 A. I believe it's been about 45 23 minutes. 24 Q. No. We started again at 20 minutes 25 to 12:00 after a half an hour break and now you 2846 1 are taking another break at noon? 2 A. Mr. Bowles, I took a break to be with 3 counsel of which you have tried to limit of which 4 you have no authority whatsoever to do and you 5 failed. 6 Q. If you tell us the name of your 7 counsel, we probably would make it a little more 8 efficient? 9 A. And I already said on deposition that 10 if I need to use the facility, that I will do 11 that. I have been advised that I have a right to 12 do that. And I am going to do that. Now, if you 13 need the police officer out here to accompany me 14 to the bathroom and come back into this deposition 15 room that I went into the toilet to relieve 16 myself, I will be happy to do that for you. 17 Otherwise, why don't you just shut up. Thank 18 you. 19 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 20 A. What will be nonresponsive is when I 21 meet you outside the room today. 22 Q. Is that a threat, Mr. Scarff? 23 A. It's a promise. 24 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 25 The time is twelve o'clock P.M. 2847 1 (Recess taken.) 2 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record 3 the time is 12:02 P.M. 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Calhoun, when are we 5 breaking for lunch, sir? 6 MR. CALHOUN: Let's go to about 12:20. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 MR. BOWLES: I prefer to go to 12:30 so we 9 have a full 45-minute session. 10 THE WITNESS: I prefer 12:20 too. 11 MR. BOWLES: So you will walk out of the 12 deposition at 12:20, is that it? 13 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 14 THE WITNESS: You know, Mr. Bowles, I am 15 going to apologize for the statement I just made 16 because I realize and I think that everyone that 17 knows Tim Bowles is that you're a spineless wimp 18 and you are all mouth and nothing to back it up. 19 So I apologize if I came across with a threat, 20 because I am not going to approach you outside the 21 room. Because given your reputation, you will be 22 running 20 miles an hour to get out of here. So I 23 apologize. I wouldn't want to strike any discord 24 with a child. 25 BY MR. BOWLES: 2848 1 Q. Mr. Scarff, thank you for the 2 apology. 3 A. It's curious -- 4 Q. I am sure it was heart felt. 5 A. You can call me Garry, too. You do 6 it off camera, why don't you do it in here? 7 Q. Mr. Scarff, who is Jessica Marx? 8 A. Tim, Jessica Marx is a member of the 9 Church of Scientology and you would know who 10 Jessica Marx is because she paid for my room when 11 I was in Los Angeles that week in November at 12 which time you were involved, at least to my 13 understanding, in the solicitation to kill Cynthia 14 Kisser. And I saw her name on the hotel receipt. 15 So I know that Jessica Marx paid for it. And also 16 Matt Bratschi told me that Jessica Marx was living 17 and working in the Los Angeles area. So it was 18 confirmed with me that Jessica Marx knew that I 19 was there as well. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. Jessica Marx, I believe, is the 22 granddaughter of Harpo or at least one of the Marx 23 brothers. I believe it's Harpo. I am not sure. 24 But at one time Jessica Marx lived in Portland, 25 Oregon. 2849 1 Q. Okay. So was it Harpo or Groucho? 2 A. As I said before, I believe it was 3 Harpo. 4 Q. Or was it Gummo? 5 A. Asked and answered. 6 Q. On what basis do you claim that she 7 was the granddaughter of Harpo? 8 A. I said I believe she was the 9 granddaughter of Harpo Marx. 10 Q. And on what basis do you claim that? 11 A. From things that I had heard about 12 Jessica. 13 Q. From whom? 14 A. Mary Weeks who was involved in a 15 deprogramming attempt on her at one time. I 16 believe the conversation came from Mary. 17 Q. Okay. How does Jessica Marx spell 18 her last name? 19 A. I don't know. I would assume 20 M A R X based on the information I got from Mary 21 Weeks. Again, I'm not sure. 22 Q. So your testimony -- let me just have 23 you read this. Page 469, Line 1 to Line 18. 24 A. "The other individual 25 that I recall that they went to 2850 1 for funds was Jessica Marx, who 2 used to be a resident of 3 Portland, Oregon who, is well 4 known to members of the Positive 5 Action Center in Portland. 6 Jessica Marx is the 7 granddaughter of Harpo Marx and 8 evidently inherited funds from 9 that estate. And she was a 10 heavy contributor to this 11 cause. I know, for example, in 12 fact when I went to Los Angeles 13 in November that my motel room 14 was paid for by Jessica Marx. 15 And so whenever they have 16 expenses that need to be had, 17 they can just reach out to those 18 individuals in the church that 19 they know have the money to do 20 so. And I mean it's all one big 21 effort within the Church of 22 Scientology to make this a 23 greater and saner world so it's 24 no problem in going after these 25 people to get the money." 2851 1 Q. When you testified there that Jessica 2 Marx is the granddaughter of Harpo Marx, it was 3 based on your belief out of Mary Weeks' mouth? 4 A. Not only that, but I have heard other 5 people refer to Jessica Marx. I recall a senate, 6 I believe it was a senate or maybe it was a house 7 meeting that I attended in Salem, Oregon, which is 8 the state seat of Oregon, and at one time there 9 was a bill that the Greeks were trying to pass 10 which would make deprogramming legal or even 11 mandated by law in some situations, and Jessica 12 Marx was present. And she testified. And I 13 remember her getting very emotional. And I even 14 think Anne Greek at that time told me who Jessica 15 Marx was. 16 But the first time I heard about 17 Jessica Marx was Mary Weeks told me that she had 18 been involved in some deprogramming attempt or 19 actually deprogramming with her. And it's based 20 upon the information that I heard. 21 Q. Did you hear Jessica Marx claim 22 before a legislative body that she was the 23 granddaughter of Harpo Marx? 24 A. I don't believe so. I believe her -- 25 the only comment she made was the fact that she 2852 1 had been a victim to an unlawful kidnapping and 2 deprogramming and that's what bothered her. 3 Q. So from who else did you hear that 4 she was the granddaughter of Harpo Marx besides 5 Mary Weeks? 6 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; mischaracterizes 7 the testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: I believe -- 9 MR. BOWLES: If anyone. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, I don't need to 11 answer the question. You have already answered it 12 for me. Asked and answered, Counselor. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Was there anyone else you have heard 15 it from? 16 A. You answered it for me. 17 Q. I said if anyone. 18 A. You just made a comment. Asked and 19 answered. It's on the record. Do you need to 20 read the document, sir? 21 Q. Mr. Scarff. 22 A. Are you getting off on this now, 23 Tim? You are enjoying this. Just remember the 24 camera is also on you, sir, and it's recording 25 your little antics here as well. 2853 1 Q. Mr. Scarff, were you the golden boy 2 for Scientology? 3 A. It was referred to me by someone that 4 I was the golden boy for Scientology. And I think 5 I even used it once that the fact that despite all 6 of my impeachable history, much of which you have 7 brought up in this testimony, sir, you would still 8 and I am speaking you, Tim, we are not talking 9 about Eugene Ingram here, we are not talking about 10 anyone, you, Tim, you, Tim, had your employee, 11 Eugene Ingram pay me hundreds of dollars to 12 participate in your unlawful scheme. And it's 13 interesting that in the last, what is it, about 14 four days now you have discredited me about all of 15 my past, and I have read numerous things that have 16 been entered into evidence about what happened 17 between 1982 and 1984, but here in 1991 you sent 18 someone and you actually endorse and allow this 19 man to pay me $1100 to participate in an unlawful 20 scheme with you. That doesn't strike you as 21 funny, Tim? 22 Q. So, Mr. Scarff, have you been 23 discredited in this deposition? 24 A. You have sought to discredit me, 25 sir. You have made a three ring circus out of 2854 1 this deposition, sir. You have constantly 2 disrupted this deposition. And you have 3 constantly used numerous evidence that you think 4 is fulfilling your agenda here to try to discredit 5 me and it all occurred during the time -- 6 Q. Have you been discredited. 7 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; argumentative. 8 THE WITNESS: -- when you said I shouldn't 9 be trusted but in 1991 which is very recent, sir, 10 it only happened in the last two or three years, 11 sir, Tim, you allowed your employee, and I am sure 12 that Eugene would not have done anything without 13 your approval because you employ him, paid me at 14 least $1100, $1,100 to be a part of an unlawful 15 and unethical scheme perpetuated by your law 16 firm. That's funny. I find that really ironic. 17 Don't you, sir? 18 BY MR. BOWLES: 19 Q. Before you became Scientology's 20 golden boy, were you ever anyone else's golden 21 boy, Mr. Scarff? 22 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 23 speculation. 24 THE WITNESS: First of all, I have said that 25 I believe people have referred to me being a 2855 1 golden boy and I have even joked about it. Are 2 you admitting that I was Scientology's golden boy 3 by your statements, sir? 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. I am asking that prior to your 6 claiming that you were Scientology's golden boy 7 have you ever claimed that you were someone else's 8 golden boy, in particular the Cult Awareness 9 Network? 10 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 11 testimony. 12 THE WITNESS: First of all, again, 13 Mr. Bowles, don't misrepresent the testimony. I 14 know you are losing. I know you feel bad because 15 you are not doing very well here, sir, but please 16 don't misrepresent my testimony here. I never 17 said that I was the golden boy. I have said that 18 people have referred to me as Scientology's golden 19 boy and that I even joked about it. But I never 20 made the claim that I am Scientology's golden 21 boy. 22 And as far as being the golden boy 23 for the Cult Awareness Network, no. Eugene Ingram 24 made a little assertion in there that Wayne Barber 25 had said that I was the golden boy. 2856 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. Okay. Have you ever testified 3 yourself that Wayne Barber said that you were 4 CAN's golden boy? 5 A. I don't recall that, no. I don't 6 recall that. I recall Wayne saying something to 7 the effect that I was a valued asset to the Cult 8 Awareness Network and this happened after a 9 meeting that occurred at the Cult Awareness 10 Network conference in Milwaukee, but I don't 11 recall ever saying that I was CAN's golden boy. I 12 didn't create the word. 13 Q. That wasn't my question. My question 14 was -- 15 A. And Eugene Ingram in his declaration 16 that said that I was CAN's golden boy. And in 17 that respect I would like to look at the exhibit 18 to refresh my memory about what we are talking 19 about here. 20 Q. Let's look at Exhibit-3. And I will 21 ask you again. Have you ever claimed that Wayne 22 Barber said you were CAN's golden boy. 23 A. Let me look at Exhibit-3 when the 24 court reporter is free. 25 Q. Yes or no, do you recall ever having 2857 1 said that Wayne Barber claimed you were CAN's 2 golden boy? 3 A. When I see the exhibit and I look at 4 it, I will answer your question, Mr. Bowles. She 5 is busy right now. Do you know what page it's 6 on? 7 Q. Page 228. You can read from Line 11 8 to 15. 9 A. Okay. "A. Wayne Barber 10 told me that I was CAN's golden 11 boy. That I should keep it up. 12 He did make a comment in 13 Milwaukee that I was the golden 14 boy and that was a joke out of 15 humor, but he never said I 16 should keep it up as if he was 17 encouraging me to make false 18 accusations." 19 Q. So what's your testimony now? 20 A. Well, my testimony is -- thank you 21 for refreshing my memory. Evidently he said I was 22 CAN's golden boy. But the difference there is 23 that and with respect to the Eugene Ingram 24 declaration, I was CAN's golden boy because I was 25 part of some unlawful activity, and I clearly say 2858 1 it right here on Lines 11 through 15 that it 2 discredits Eugene Ingram's assertion in his 3 declarations which you swear by, Mr. Bowles. You 4 paid him to do. So, I don't think this works in 5 your favor at all, Mr. Bowles. 6 Q. So you committed no crimes while you 7 were a member of CAN; is that right? 8 A. I think that's speculative. 9 Q. Didn't engage in interstate 10 kidnapping while you were a CAN member? 11 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; misstates the 12 testimony. Assumes facts not in evidence. 13 THE WITNESS: I think it's speculative. 14 Certainly I know Scientology looks around every 15 corner looking for a crime to have occurred and so 16 in your mind-set, I am sure that I am a criminal. 17 But that's just in your paranoid reality, sir. So 18 it doesn't affect me whatsoever. 19 BY MR. BOWLES: 20 Q. Okay. Mr. Scarff, who is Alana 21 Arnold? 22 A. Alana, I believe it's Elana. 23 Q. Elana Arnold. Who is that? 24 A. There are two Elana Arnolds or Alana 25 Arnold. There is an Alana Arnold that was the 2859 1 woman that Eugene Ingram had written to. I 2 believe she was with the criminal enforcement 3 division of the Internal Revenue Service in 4 Chicago, Illinois. There is a letter in the 5 exhibit which refers to her receiving a letter 6 from Eugene Ingram attesting that -- in fact, I 7 should refer to the exhibit, but it basically 8 attests that Mr. Ingram investigated Garry Scarff 9 and stands by Garry Scarff's history and 10 everything about his declaration in a complaint to 11 the Internal Revenue Service. 12 I remember the first person that I 13 met when I went back to Scientology in '82 was a 14 woman by the name of Elana, E L A N A, and I 15 believe her last name was Arnold, but I am not 16 real sure. But I know it was Elana. So there is 17 an Alana and there is an Elana. Do you want me to 18 refer to Alana Arnold's letter, sir. 19 Q. No. You have answered the question. 20 Let's take a look at Exhibit-88. 21 Do you have that exhibit there? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. September 1, 1992, addressed to 24 Father Kent Burtner from Garry Scarff. Is that 25 your signature on the last page? 2860 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Okay. The third paragraph starts 3 with "I was raised." Would you read the first two 4 sentences please? 5 A. "I was raised in a 6 dysfunctional family, and was 7 abused growing up. One of the 8 results of this dysfunction was 9 a long lack of self-esteem and 10 confidence in myself and a 11 tendency to lash out and seek 12 vengeance against individuals 13 that were critical of me." 14 Q. Is that a true statement, 15 Mr. Scarff? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. Anything false about that in this 18 letter? 19 A. No. About this letter? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Not that I see, no. 22 Q. Okay. What do you mean by 23 "dysfunctional"? 24 A. I think dysfunctional is a relative 25 term which has been discussed frequently, not only 2861 1 in the media in the last couple of years but in 2 the mental health profession generally. What I 3 mean by dysfunction is that I did not have a 4 LEAVE IT TO BEAVER family or something that you 5 see in a television sitcom about a family. That 6 my family was torn apart. That my family was 7 affected by a very bad divorce situation which 8 involved me and my brothers. There was abuses 9 that occurred. 10 Q. What kind of abuses, Mr. Scarff? 11 A. That is personal and it's none of 12 your business. And I am not going to discuss my 13 family life or my situation with you. You know 14 it's personal. And you also know that these are 15 things that I have discussed in length with 16 counselors from the Church of Scientology who 17 claimed they were part of a priest-penitent 18 privilege of which you have chosen to breach 19 deliberately. And of which you will be held 20 accountable for. 21 Q. So were you sexually abused as a 22 child, Mr. Scarff? 23 A. Mr. Bowles, I have answered the 24 question that I will not talk about my family 25 life. I won't talk about personal things. It's 2862 1 none of your business, sir. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. I also will say that I resent this 4 letter being entered into the exhibits because 5 this was a personal letter sent to an individual 6 who was also a priest in the church of which now I 7 am a member. 8 Q. You didn't voice this so-called 9 resentment when Mr. Berry brought it up, did you? 10 A. I don't recall now that he ever 11 discussed this letter. I could be wrong, but I 12 don't recall him ever discussing this letter, 13 sir. And I don't know why he entered it as an 14 exhibit, sir. Or why -- I simply don't know why 15 we are discussing it unless there was something in 16 the content of this that he wanted to point out to 17 me. 18 Q. Okay. 19 A. But I am not happy with the fact that 20 this has been entered as an exhibit because if 21 I -- I mean, it tells me now that I simply can't 22 write to anybody anymore on a confidential level, 23 because it's going to be turned into a court 24 record. 25 Q. All right. I want you to read from 2863 1 Page 955 of the transcript, Line 7 to Line 15 of 2 956. 3 A. "A. You have to understand 4 something, Mr. Berry. If I had 5 left after being dismissed as a 6 candidate for the archdiocese of 7 Portland, if that didn't mean a 8 hell of a lot to me and I wasn't 9 so angry and I was of the 10 mind-set that, okay, I lost out 11 on this one, I am going to go on 12 with life, in that mind-set I 13 would have known, God, I have 14 would have known not to write a 15 letter speaking critically of 16 the Church of Scientology to 17 anyone. I certainly wouldn't 18 have sent this letter to the 19 Church of Scientology because I 20 knew the repercussions of that 21 action. 22 "However, I was so angry 23 and so upset about being 24 dismissed as something that I 25 saw as a life-long vocation that 2864 1 I was throwing the wind at 2 anyone. I was angry at the 3 world. I was angry at myself. 4 I was angry at the Church of 5 Scientology because they 6 wouldn't talk to me. I was 7 certainly angry at the Greeks 8 because I considered them 9 responsible partly for my being 10 dismissed. 11 "So I wrote this letter 12 out of anger and in disgust. 13 And my mind-set at the time was 14 I didn't give a damn if the 15 Church of Scientology came and 16 ran me over with a bulldozer. I 17 was going to get back at 18 somebody. And that's why I 19 wrote the letter. 20 "But any one of a 21 rational mind at the time, and I 22 am not saying that I had any 23 rational mind, but any one of a 24 mind-set that was thinking 25 clearly at the time would know 2865 1 better than to challenge the 2 Church of Scientology because 3 the Church of Scientology has a 4 history and a well-known 5 reputation for not sitting down 6 and being slapped in the face. 7 "They get up and they 8 attack their aggressors and 9 their critics with so much vigor 10 that, I mean I think it has 11 already been established on 12 record how much vigor they 13 attack their critics to the 14 point that it caused a lot of 15 their victims a lot of anguish 16 and a lot of pain." 17 Q. All right. So any part of that 18 transcription that's inaccurate? 19 A. No, sir. Not at all. 20 Q. Page 956, "but any one of a rational 21 mind at the time, and I am not saying I had any 22 rational mind," Mr. Scarff, how would you know 23 when you have a rational mind? 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection; calls for 25 speculation and argumentative. 2866 1 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to say at 2 that time and what I said on record is that I was 3 angry and that when a person is angry and lashing 4 out, that it's not the same thing as sitting down 5 and Cooly and clearly thinking out a situation and 6 that's what I was referring to. 7 BY MR. BOWLES: 8 Q. Okay. Take a look at Page 960 from 9 Lines 10 to Line 14. Please read that for us. 10 MR. CALHOUN: I will object as being an 11 incomplete excerpt from an answer without the 12 question. It's not within the context. 13 MR. BOWLES: I am handing counsel the prior 14 page so he can see the question. Talking about 15 the same incident. 16 THE WITNESS: Where did you want me to 17 start? 18 BY MR. BOWLES: 19 Q. Got the context, Mr. Scarff? 20 A. I just asked you a question. Can you 21 answer it, sir? 22 Q. Do you have the context now, sir? 23 A. You don't want me to address the fact 24 that your representative lied to me about being a 25 police officer? 2867 1 Q. I want you -- do you have the context 2 now of your answer on the page I handed you 3 first? 4 A. I asked you a question, sir, and it's 5 relevant to what you asked me. I am just trying 6 to figure out what you want me to -- 7 Q. Let me see the pages. I want you to 8 read from Line 10 to 14 on Page 960. 9 MR. CALHOUN: Same objection. A portion of 10 an answer out of context. 11 THE WITNESS: This is an excerpt of the 12 entire answer which is taken out of context by 13 Mr. Bowles. But I will read it. 14 "And I had considered 15 several options at that time. 16 One was suicide. One was moving 17 out of the state and getting as 18 far away from Oregon as I 19 could. And one was just to ride 20 the flow and hope that nothing 21 happened." 22 Again, you have taken this out of 23 context. But you do that with most of the things 24 you do anyway in your cross-examination, sir. 25 BY MR. BOWLES: 2868 1 Q. Did you contemplate suicide after you 2 were rejected by Reverand Kerns? 3 A. Mr. Bowles, I thought about suicide. 4 I thought about moving out of the State of 5 Oregon. I thought about running and never talking 6 to anyone again because I was so upset and so 7 oppressed about what had happened. 8 Q. And you blame the Church of 9 Scientology for that? 10 A. I blame the Church of Scientology in 11 part because they were individuals who in the past 12 said if you ever had a problem, come to us. If 13 you ever need to talk to someone, come to us. And 14 here I said I have a problem. I need to talk to 15 someone and their response was reflective of fuck 16 you. Yes, the church misrepresented itself. 17 Yes. 18 Q. So, after Reverand Kerns wrote you 19 the letter, I think it's Exhibit-29 which -- 20 A. Reverand Kerns didn't write me a 21 letter, sir, that I recall. 22 Q. -- Oh. 23 A. I wrote a letter to Reverand Kerns. 24 He didn't write me a letter. 25 Q. All right. Exhibit-29 is the letter 2869 1 to Reverand Kerns. You are right about that. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Is it your testimony now that -- is 4 it your testimony strike the now -- is it your 5 testimony that during the time you were rejected 6 here by the archdiocese of Portland that you 7 sought the counsel of the Church of Scientology 8 and they rejected you? 9 A. Yes, it is. Yes, I did. And no one 10 cared. No one listened. 11 Q. Who did you talk to? 12 A. I talked to a gentleman at the Church 13 of Scientology center, I believe it was on 14 Southeast Ninth Street at the time. And I left 15 messages for Gwen Mayfield. I even asked this 16 gentleman if Gwen Mayfield was around. He said 17 yes, she is simply not in the office at the time. 18 And I left numerous messages for Gwen Mayfield and 19 there was no response whatsoever. And I even 20 asked him at one point whether she had gotten the 21 messages. And he said, "Well, Gwen said she knows 22 who you are. She knows you but that she would get 23 in contact with you at a later time." And she 24 never did. 25 Q. What part of your message that you 2870 1 had an extremely emotional situation having been 2 rejected by the archdiocese? 3 A. I'm sorry? 4 Q. Did you indicate in your messages 5 that you had an extremely difficult problem you 6 were facing with regard to the Catholic 7 archdiocese of Portland? 8 A. What I told him was that I had been 9 rejected by the archdiocese based on information 10 that had flowed from the Cult Awareness Network 11 and Adrian and Anne Greek. That I was told 12 specifically by Father Kerns that Adrian and Anne 13 Greek had spoken with them by virtue of the fact 14 that my name appeared in an article in the 15 Catholic Centerum, which is the state Catholic 16 newspaper, and it announced the fact that Garry 17 Scarff was going to go to the seminary and study 18 for the priesthood. 19 And that either Father Kent Burtner 20 or Jeanette Benson alerted the Greeks to that. 21 And the Greeks talked to them. And the fact that 22 Father Kerns told me that he had spoken with the 23 Greeks but nobody else, he wouldn't say who else 24 he spoke, to but the fact that he brought up the 25 Cult Awareness Network at the time led me to 2871 1 believe that he had also talked with someone 2 within CAN. Possibly Cynthia Kisser. 3 And, yes, I was upset given the fact 4 that the Church of Scientology considers the Cult 5 Awareness Network an arch enemy, a hate 6 organization; that they spend a lot of time, 7 effort and money to try to destroy the 8 organization. I thought that I would find some 9 empathy within the Church of Scientology not only 10 to my situation but the fact that this 11 organization which Scientology refers to as a 12 national hate organization would support me. I 13 really thought they would support me. 14 Q. So you are claiming that you 15 contacted the church before you wrote the Kerns 16 letter; is that right? 17 A. Yes. I did. 18 Q. And the failure of the church to 19 respond to your asking them for help in this 20 situation led you in part to writing this letter, 21 Exhibit-29, is that your testimony? 22 A. Yes, sir, in part. Because other 23 people I addressed it -- I went to Catholic 24 officials. I went to my parish priest. And there 25 is a very strong hierarchy within the Catholic 2872 1 church. And they didn't want to touch it. And so 2 I was angry at the world. 3 I went to my parents and my parents 4 were upset with the fact that I even got involved 5 with Scientology or the Catholic church in the 6 first place. Because my mother is very agnostic. 7 And so I didn't feel I was getting support 8 anywhere. And that's why I threw it. 9 MR. BOWLES: It's a good time to break for 10 lunch. 11 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 12 Today is August 17th, 1993. The time is 12:30 13 P.M. End of Tape 1, Volume XV, continuing 14 deposition of Mr. Scarff. 15 (The luncheon recess was taken 16 at 12:30 P.M.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2873 1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: 2 (P.M. SESSION) 3 4 TIMOTHY BOWLES, ESQ. 5 6 GORDON J. CALHOUN, ESQ. 7 8 9 ALSO PRESENT: 10 11 BARRY VARANESE, VIDEO OPERATOR 12 BOB BICHLER 13 14 15 16 17 REPORTED BY: 18 19 PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, CSR No. 2499 20 21 22 23 24 25 2874 1 (The deposition of GARRY L. SCARFF 2 was reconvened at 1:49 P.M.) 3 4 GARRY L. SCARFF, 5 having been previously duly sworn, testified 6 further as follows: 7 8 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 9 The date is August 17, 1993. The time is 10 1:49 P.M. Beginning of Tape 2, Volume VX. 11 Continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 12 13 EXAMINATION (CONTINUING) 14 BY MR. BOWLES: 15 Q. Mr. Scarff, can you tell us your 16 phone numbers since 1980? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Can you tell us any of your phone 19 numbers since 1983? 20 A. 281-9088 is the last number that I 21 remember. 22 Q. Between what years did you have that 23 phone number? 24 A. I believe it was October '89 through 25 July of '93. 2875 1 Q. That's the 503 area code? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What was your number before that? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Do you recall any other phone numbers 6 prior to that time? 7 A. I don't. 8 Q. Have you ever had any training in 9 auto mechanics? 10 A. Not that I recall. I know how to 11 change a flat tire. My father taught me how to do 12 that. But other than that, no. 13 Q. Have you ever had any training in 14 replacing brakes? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Any training in brake systems 17 generally? 18 A. No. 19 MR. BOWLES: I am going to show you now an 20 exhibit which we will mark as next in order which 21 I think is 199 and ask you to identify it. 22 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 199 23 was marked for identification and is 24 bound separately.) 25 THE WITNESS: This is already an exhibit. I 2876 1 will find it. It has already been talked about on 2 the record as well. Somewhere near your 3 declaration, Mr. Bowles. Exhibit-28. 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. Okay. 28. I see that now. Are 6 there any differences between Exhibit-28 and 7 Exhibit-199? 8 A. The only difference that I see right 9 now, I haven't read this whole thing, is that the 10 exhibit you want to introduce is a lighter copy 11 than what is shown in Exhibit-28 that is already 12 in record. 13 Q. Is that your signature on the second 14 page? 15 A. No, it is not. 16 Q. Is it your testimony this is a 17 forgery? 18 A. Yes, it is. I have already attested 19 to that on record. 20 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-39. You 21 are at 39? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. This appears to be a December 16, 24 1991 letter to Board of Directors, Ecumenical 25 Ministries of Oregon. And is that your signature 2877 1 or is there a signature? No signature. 2 Did you write this document? 3 A. I wrote this document as did Gwen 4 Mayfield. We both wrote this document. 5 Q. Wrote it together? 6 A. Yes, and it was approved by David 7 Butterworth. 8 Q. Let's take a look at the sixth page. 9 If you would read the third paragraph, please. 10 A. "Upon learning that I 11 have began to tell the truth 12 about my years in the Positive 13 Action Center and Cult Awareness 14 Network, their officials have 15 accused me of slander, being a 16 pathological liar and being 17 solely responsible for what I 18 have been honest with you about 19 today. Unfortunately for the 20 Greeks and their associates the 21 evidence clearly does not show 22 this." 23 Q. Is that a true statement? 24 A. Absolutely not. In fact this was 25 written during the time, as you well know, 2878 1 Mr. Bowles, that I was in Scientology and that the 2 purpose of this document was to slander and to 3 incriminate Adrian and Anne Greek who were 4 affiliate directors of the Cult Awareness Network 5 who were also defendants in the lawsuit in which 6 you, Mr. Bowles, was going to represent me in in 7 the Oregon courts. 8 Q. Let's go to Page 5. Second 9 paragraph. It starts with "The deprogrammer." 10 Would you read that, please. 11 A. Sure. 12 "The deprogrammer then 13 would subsequently kidnap, 14 falsely imprison and 'deprogram' 15 the loved one in order to 16 influence them to renounce their 17 chosen beliefs. In many cases 18 the victim is so overwhelmed 19 with physical and mental 20 exhaustion and emotional trauma 21 of a 'caged animal' that they 22 relent and renounce" -- it looks 23 like -- "their beliefs only to 24 return to them after they are 25 released by their captors which 2879 1 results in a separation in the 2 relationship of parents and 3 child. However, this does not 4 concern the deprogrammer who is 5 $25,000-plus richer and the 6 unfortunate parent $25,000 7 poorer and the loss of a loved 8 one." 9 Q. As you sit here today is there any 10 truth to that paragraph? 11 A. There is some truth to it. 12 Q. What is the truth? 13 A. With respects to a deprogramming and 14 what occurs in a deprogramming, particularly as 15 defined by the Church of Scientology, one is put 16 into a situation where they are forced to recant 17 their beliefs. And again I wrote this at the time 18 that I was in the Church of Scientology and this 19 was approved by Scientology officials. In fact I 20 was not free to even release this letter unless it 21 had the final approval of David Butterworth, the 22 director of the Office of Special Affairs, Church 23 of Scientology International. 24 Q. When did you discover that your 25 affidavits now marked as Exhibits-9 through 13 2880 1 were sworn and under oath? 2 A. I never -- they have never been sworn 3 and under oath and I have said that on record. 4 You are simply twisting the information around 5 again. They have never been sworn and under oath, 6 ever. 7 Q. Have you ever claimed that they were? 8 A. That 9 through 13, Ingram's 9 affidavits, were sworn? 10 Q. Affidavits, yes. 11 A. I believe that during the time that I 12 was working for the Office of Special Affairs in 13 which, Mr. Bowles, you were also a member so you 14 would know what I am talking about here, that I 15 claimed that everything in these affidavits was 16 true and correct, that Eugene Ingram being a 17 private investigator and a former Los Angeles 18 police officer had a well-established reputation 19 for finding the facts, and that I supported Eugene 20 Ingram in whatever he did. Again, this was during 21 the time that I was in Scientology. 22 Q. Did you ever make the claim that 23 these were sworn affidavits? 24 A. I just answered the question the best 25 I can. If it is not good enough for you, that's 2881 1 your business. 2 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-45. Is 3 that your signature on the last page? 4 A. I don't have a last page. I have 1 5 through 3, no last page. 6 MR. BOWLES: Why don't we, Mr. Reporter if 7 you could, pull the original exhibit. 8 THE WITNESS: It doesn't have it. In fact 9 there is a note that says, "Needs Page 4 on it." 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. I will show you my copy. 12 A. It does look like my signature, yes. 13 Q. Take a look at Exhibit-49. And my 14 copy isn't signed but I will ask you, did you 15 write Exhibit-49? 16 A. Not just myself but David 17 Butterworth, Gwen Mayfield, Angie Mann and I were 18 all writers of this document. Again this was 19 another scheme to incriminate Adrian and Anne 20 Greek in the eyes of the Ecumenical Ministries of 21 Oregon. 22 Q. You read this document and signed the 23 original before it went out? 24 A. Yes, I did after David Butterworth 25 approved the final copy I did sign it and 70 2882 1 copies of this went out. 2 Q. Let's go back to 45. On that 3 document did you sign that after having read it? 4 A. I am sorry, this is something I 5 sent. What do you mean read? 6 Q. Did you sign it on the last page 7 after reading it? 8 A. Yes. Again I wrote this at the time 9 I was in Scientology combined with Exhibit-49 and 10 the earlier document. You will notice it is in 11 the same time period. We were in addition trying 12 to incriminate the Greeks. We were trying to sway 13 her daughter, Sheryl Greek, who was a Way member 14 of the Unification Church, from having any kind of 15 social contact with her parents. 16 Q. Did you understand both documents 17 before you sent them out? 18 A. Did I understand them? What I 19 understood, sir, was that was on a scheme with the 20 Church of Scientology to incriminate people even 21 though these complaints had no merit. Yes, I 22 understand that I was part and parcel to that 23 entire scheme. 24 Q. Was there any portion of these 25 letters that you didn't understand the meaning of 2883 1 before they went out? 2 A. No. I have admitted that I am 3 involved with the Church of Scientology in these 4 schemes. I make no claims otherwise, sir. I 5 don't deny it. 6 Q. So you weren't confused by any of the 7 text here? You understood exactly what it meant? 8 A. Yes. I have said on record that I 9 take responsibility and I take accountability for 10 what I have done during the time I was in 11 Scientology. I am not throwing a bunch of legal 12 dodges out as you and your compatriots have, sir. 13 Q. Strike the last part as 14 nonresponsive. 15 Let's go to Exhibit-50 again and I 16 want you to look at Page 11. That's the page that 17 says in the middle "Personal Narratives," is it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. This is again in your handwriting, 20 right? 21 A. It is in my handwriting, right. 22 Q. And you see it has Kent Burtner's 23 name there and you go on for several pages 24 describing Reverend Burtner. Is it correct to 25 call him reverend or is it father? 2884 1 A. I am Catholic now and I call him 2 Father Kent. It is up to you what you want to 3 call him, sir. 4 Q. Is Father Burtner in good standing 5 with the Catholic Church currently? 6 A. Yes, he is, to my knowledge. 7 Q. When is the last time you spoke with 8 him? 9 A. I don't think that's any of your 10 business. 11 Q. Have you spoken with him within the 12 past three years? 13 A. Sir, that's none of your business. I 14 am sorry. Father Kent is a priest. I am 15 Catholic. I have spoken with him in terms of 16 being a Catholic priest. That falls under 17 priest-penitent privilege. If you want to destroy 18 that, you try. I think you will fail. 19 Q. All communications you have had with 20 Father Kent for the past three years are in the 21 context of a counseling relationship with him? 22 A. That's priest-penitent privilege. 23 Q. That's your claim? 24 A. That's priest-penitent privilege, 25 sir. 2885 1 Q. It has all been within the counseling 2 relationship; is that right? 3 A. Priest-penitent privilege. 4 Q. Just answer yes or no. 5 A. Priest-penitent privilege. I have 6 answered your question. Let's move on. 7 Q. I don't think you have but we will 8 move on. 9 Could you read from the middle of 10 Page 13 which is headed with the words "Patty 11 Hills" to the middle of Page 15. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. I am sorry, to the middle of Page 16 14 which has the 15 in a circle. 15 A. "Patty Hills," underlined. 16 "Patty became involved 17 in the PAC in 1986 after 18 attending a PAC function at St. 19 Rita Catholic Church where she 20 is a member. Patty, when I met 21 her, was being seen by a 22 psychiatrist for post-traumatic 23 disorders from what she said was 24 a child of satanists. She 25 claims to have been raised in a 2886 1 satanic coven and that her 2 stepfather 'rescued' her when 3 she was 14. Her stories of 4 abuse arise from data taken from 5 hypnosis sessions with her 6 psychiatrist. And sessions 7 later when she counseled with 8 the Greeks and then Father Kent 9 Burtner, who implored her to 10 believe that all the bad dreams 11 she had of satanic abuse could 12 be accepted as repressed 13 memories. Patty can recall as 14 has accepted bloody human 15 sacrifices, group sex, drinking 16 blood, wine and vomit" -- I am 17 sorry -- "urine and vomit, being 18 smeared with feces, being forced 19 to stab children during 20 sacrifices and has admitted 21 assisting her father in luring 22 children off playgrounds on the 23 East Coast, kidnapping them and 24 drugging them until they were 25 ultimately molested, used for 2887 1 kiddie porn and snuff films or 2 scarificed on the altar. 3 "Patty Hills was 4 interviewed by the Oregonian 5 Margie Boule, B O U L E, for a 6 PAC sponsored telethon in which 7 I also appeared on camera 8 attacking the Church of 9 Scientology and Scientologists 10 Fred King and Dr. Jim Aungst. 11 "Patty attended the 12 Milwaukee conference where I was 13 a guest speaker and she and 14 Fred, Father Kent had private 15 accommodations with another CAN 16 member in Sheboygan, Wisconsin. 17 "It was obvious then 18 that Father Kent and Patty Hills 19 were more than counselor and 20 counselee and Patty later 21 confided in me what would 22 confirm a sexual relationship 23 was occurring between Patty and 24 Father Kent. 25 It was for this very 2888 1 reason that the Greeks dismissed 2 Father Kent from the associate 3 director's position at PAC 4 though they publicly stated that 5 they couldn't afford to pay 6 him. Hard to believe since 7 Kent's salary and use of 8 automobile was paid by Wayne 9 Barber. 10 "During the social affair 11 with Patty and Father Kent she 12 was undergoing a nasty divorce 13 and child custody action whereby 14 she accused her husband, Craig, 15 of molesting her children. 16 (Patty confided to me that 17 Father Kent put her up to it.) 18 After expensive testing and 19 court evaluations this was 20 disproven. I also offered 21 Craig, a friend of mine, my 22 testimony to assist him but was 23 never contacted. 24 "Patty remains in 25 contact with Father Kent at 2889 1 St. Dominics in San Francisco." 2 Q. If you could read down to the middle 3 of that page, sir. 4 A. "I don't know her current 5 involvement with the Greeks 6 though they had a falling-out in 7 1988 because of a relationship 8 with Father Kent and refusal to 9 abide by their instructions. 10 You might want Eugene to 11 interview her. She would also 12 be a hot witness in court, I 13 think. Have Eugene or your 14 attorneys call if they need more 15 information. Gary Scarff." 16 Q. And that's your signature at the 17 bottom? 18 A. It is. 19 Q. In this section regarding Patty Hills 20 and Father Kent, is there anything incorrect about 21 that, about the recount here? 22 A. That I can't attest to. 23 Q. Sorry? 24 A. That I cannot attest to because the 25 information that I received here came from a 2890 1 number of people that I simply accepted as telling 2 me the truth. If what they were telling me was 3 true, then the information in here would be 4 correct. 5 Q. So you relayed accurately what others 6 have told you about this incident? 7 A. Yes. And also in the conversations I 8 had with Patty because I knew Patty. Patty does 9 admit to being a former satanic cult victim. She 10 admits to being a victim of ritualistic child 11 abuse in a satanic cult. The comments she made 12 about her father are the comments me she made to 13 me and the association she had with the Greeks are 14 things she told me. So these are conversations 15 that I had not only with Patty, but Anne Greek, 16 John -- I forgot his last name, but he is a 17 Unification Church member who has worked with John 18 Biermans and I also believe I spoke with John 19 Biermans in Sacramento, California and he confided 20 with me that some of the stuff was true. So 21 that's how I came to write this. 22 Q. So it is accurate that Father Kent 23 was terminated from the Positive Action Center for 24 this reason? 25 A. No, I am not saying that. What I am 2891 1 saying is that's the information I got through 2 various people. I know that Father Kent left the 3 Positive Action Center because they could not pay 4 him and that's all I know. As to whether there 5 was other things involved, you need to ask Father 6 Kent. I don't know. This is what I was told. 7 Q. So this is basically then based on 8 other people's claims; is that right? 9 A. Based on other people's claims that 10 at the time I believe were telling me the truth, 11 yes. 12 Q. Did the Greeks claim they had 13 dismissed Father Kent for the reasons stated here? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Who claimed it? 16 A. The Greeks told me that Father Kent 17 was no longer associate director. And that was 18 it. 19 Q. They didn't give you a reason? 20 A. It was none of your business. 21 Q. They didn't give you a reason? 22 A. No. I didn't ask. 23 Q. This mentioned a telethon. When was 24 that? 25 A. 1984, I believe July. 2892 1 Q. And that's where you -- is this 2 accurate that you appeared on camera attacking the 3 Church of Scientology and Scientologists Fred King 4 and Jim Aungst at that time? 5 A. What I said at the time was I felt I 6 was being mistreated at that time and being that I 7 wrote this during the time I was involved in 8 Scientology, I simply said I was attacking them. 9 Q. So is this accurate that you went on 10 camera attacking the Church of Scientology? 11 A. No. 12 Q. What is accurate? 13 A. What is accurate is I said I had a 14 run in at one time with Fred King. I had a run-in 15 with the Church of Scientology and the Church of 16 Scientology has not been totally honest with me 17 and I had problems with that. 18 Evidently because this was also 19 addressed in Oklahoma City with David Butterworth, 20 the Church of Scientology didn't see any problems 21 with it because again they welcomed me back with 22 open arms. 23 Q. Have you -- 24 A. This is also the telethon, by the 25 way, which I have attested to already was my 2893 1 meeting with Diane Benscoter and later which I 2 turned Diane Benscoter into the police and had her 3 arrested. 4 Q. Is that the same Diane Benscoter you 5 testified yesterday was your counselor? 6 A. No. I misspoke when I said that. As 7 I have said on record before my counselor's name 8 is Debbie Bensching, B E N S C H I N G, and that's 9 different from Diane Benscoter. I just got 10 Benscoter and been she mixed together. 11 Q. And you got the Diane mixed up -- 12 A. Diane Benscoter is a deprogrammer I 13 turned into the police that was arrested for her 14 participation in Denver, Colorado. Debbie 15 Bensching was my therapist from September 1992 to 16 September '93. 17 Q. So you got Debbie and Diane mixed up? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. Ever appear on any other telethons? 20 A. There were no other telethons I can 21 think of. 22 Q. Did you appear on a telethon in 23 November of 1987? 24 A. A telethon. 25 Q. A 12-hour PAC cablethon in November 2894 1 of '87 telling your story of People's Temple? 2 A. November of '87. No. There was only 3 one telethon. I thought it was July. Maybe this 4 was the November one I am thinking about. 5 Q. Which year? 6 A. I want to say July. And the reason I 7 say that, Mr. Bowles, is that when I got a copy of 8 the police report from the Portland police showing 9 the arrest of Diane Benscoter, it was dated August 10 of '88. And so I am assuming that the telethon 11 was July of '88, but my day could be wrong. There 12 was only one telethon I appeared on. It was with 13 the Multnomah County Cable Systems. And I want to 14 say July because of that police report, but I am 15 not sure. 16 Q. Would it be 1988? 17 A. I am sorry. 18 Q. You are sure it couldn't be 1988? 19 A. I want to say July of '88 because of 20 the date of the police report. I am not sure. 21 Q. Do you recall having said on the 22 telethon that the most devious cult is 23 Scientology? 24 A. No. I don't remember saying that. 25 Q. Do you recall having received a 2895 1 telephone call in that telethon in which the 2 caller asked if you had ever done any courses in 3 Scientology and you denied it? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Mr. Scarff, are all Scientologists 6 subjected to the so-called RPF? 7 A. You are asking me to speculate. I 8 can't speculate. Therefore, I won't give you an 9 answer. 10 Q. So it would be speculation on your 11 part if you were to say that all Scientologists 12 are subject to the rehabilitation project force, 13 RPF? 14 A. It would be speculative because I 15 don't know each and every Scientologist in the 16 Church of Scientology and for me to say that I 17 know that everyone is subject to RPF or has ever 18 been on RPF -- 19 Q. I think we are misunderstanding each 20 other. Is it the policy of the Church of 21 Scientology that any Scientologist is subject to 22 the rehabilitation protect force? 23 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, vague and 24 ambiguous. 25 THE WITNESS: I have been told that by 2896 1 Eugene Ingram and David Butterworth. In fact 2 David Butterworth told me that even David 3 Miscavige has been on RPF and has had to work 4 menial labor on the grounds of the San Diego 5 organization building on weekends and that no one 6 is -- everyone is subject to RPF including the top 7 man in Scientology. 8 BY MR. BOWLES: 9 Q. So you have never heard that only 10 members of the Sea Organization are eligible for 11 the RPF? 12 A. No, sir. 13 Q. No one has ever claimed that to you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. So do you actually know what the 16 policy is of the Church of Scientology with regard 17 to the RPF? 18 A. All I know, Mr. Bowles, is that when 19 one wants to punish a member of the Church of 20 Scientology, the RPF becomes a convenient 21 opportunity to do that. It is not a disciplinary 22 measure. It is a punishment measure. 23 Q. And it is involuntary? 24 A. People are treated like garbage. 25 Q. Is it involuntary? 2897 1 A. I never said it is involuntary. A 2 person has a choice. They can either go or be 3 punished in a different way. I think in essence 4 it is involuntary because you are given one of two 5 choices. It is like here, take this gun and blow 6 yourself in the head with the gun and if you don't 7 I am going to kill you. What is your choice? You 8 really don't have a way out. Do it yourself or 9 someone else is going to do it to you. 10 And that's what RPF is. If you are a 11 member in good standing and you are sent to RPF 12 and you don't do it, there is recourse and you 13 don't want the recourse. 14 Q. Have you ever been on the RPF? 15 A. I have refused to go on the RPF. It 16 was mentioned to me in December -- no, like 17 February, March of '86 John Carmichael brought it 18 up and I said no way. No way. 19 Q. So yes or no, do you actually know 20 what the policies are with regard to who is 21 eligible for the RPF in Scientology and who is 22 not? 23 A. What do you mean "who is eligible"? 24 This isn't a gift you bestow on anybody, 25 Mr. Bowles. This is punishment. This is 2898 1 grueling, inhumane punishment that you put people 2 through, sir. What do you mean "eligible for"? 3 Q. Do you know the policies or not? 4 A. Which policies are you referring to, 5 sir? There is an awful lot of policies in the 6 Church of Scientology. Which policies are you 7 referring to? 8 Q. Who can go on the RPF and who cannot? 9 A. I don't know specific policies, no. 10 I can find them, though, sir, if you would like me 11 to do that. I have a whole lot of stuff at home I 12 can dig through. 13 Q. Why don't you send them to us. 14 A. Mr. Bowles, please. You are such a 15 fool. 16 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 17 A. Nonresponsive but true. 18 Q. Let's look at Exhibit-89. 19 A. Nonresponsive but true. 20 89. Okay. 21 Q. Did you write this letter? 22 A. I haven't seen it yet. Let me look 23 at it. Yes. I did. 24 Q. Did this letter have to do with what 25 you claim to be sex crimes committed by the 2899 1 Christian Fellowship Church and its members? 2 A. No. What this had to do with was the 3 fact that there was already a criminal indictment 4 against two associate ministers who had been 5 involved in a criminal action with the pastor of 6 the church. And the pastor of the church had 7 already been convicted. And I don't recall -- I 8 believe it was at this time that he had already 9 been sent to Statesville Prison which is a maximum 10 security prison in Illinois for committing these 11 sex crimes against Mexicans who were brought up 12 from Mexico for the purpose of these criminal 13 activities. 14 And one associate minister admitted 15 to me, because earlier I had testified in front of 16 the congregation at the Christian Fellowship 17 Church that I had been a victim of sexual abuse, 18 and he felt free, I guess, to relate that to me 19 about the situation. 20 And so, yes, it relates to the fact 21 of a conversation I had with an associate minister 22 who claimed that prosecutor's charges against him 23 and the manner in which Reverend Loyd B. Davis was 24 convicted of was true and factual and that the 25 conspiracy charge that was constantly being thrown 2900 1 out to the media was created with the cooperation 2 of the Church of Scientology. 3 And I know for a fact having been 4 involved with Friends of Freedom and with the 5 church and with Reverend Paine this to be true. 6 This is very true. 7 Q. So this is in the nature of a police 8 report, isn't it? 9 A. No, it is not a police report. It is 10 simply a letter. It doesn't say police report. 11 Q. Was it written to a law enforcement 12 officer? 13 A. No, sir. It was written to a lawyer. 14 Q. A district attorney, right? 15 A. Are you a police officer? 16 Q. The question is this was a district 17 attorney, wasn't it? 18 A. This was with the state's attorney's 19 office. He is a lawyer. I don't know if you call 20 him a law enforcement official any more than I can 21 call you a police officer. 22 Q. Is he responsible for prosecuting 23 people under state law, criminal law? 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, lacks foundation, 25 calls for speculation. 2901 1 THE WITNESS: He works for the Lake County 2 state's attorney's office. So I would presume 3 that it had to do with state law. 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. And your purpose in sending him this 6 letter was to alert him to crimes committed within 7 the CFC? 8 A. I wrote this letter after I made a 9 decision that I was going to leave Scientology and 10 I was going to lay everything out on the table. 11 And this is part of laying everything out on the 12 table. Yes. 13 Q. So you are referring to what you 14 considered a criminal matter to a lawyer 15 responsible for prosecuting crimes? 16 A. No. Your question is inaccurate, 17 Mr. Bowles. It is relating specifically to a 18 criminal matter in which I was called as a state's 19 witness to testify in. And several days before I 20 was to fly to Chicago, Illinois, and to Waukegan 21 to testify in this case, Mr. Carner, who you see 22 in the letter addressed, this is addressed to 23 Mr. Carner, plea bargained and admitted that all 24 charges against him were in fact true and 25 corroborated the statements that I made in my 2902 1 statement. 2 In fact Mark Pleasant, who is an 3 investigator for the state's attorney's office, 4 said that as part of the agreement Mr. Carner had 5 to corroborate the statements that I made in my 6 statement. And he did so prior to the plea 7 bargain. And he did do the plea bargain. So it 8 validated everything I have said here, sir. 9 Q. This covers in part November of 1991 10 when you were in contact with the CFC, doesn't it? 11 A. 1991, yes, I believe so. 12 Q. Take a look at the second page and 13 you will see in the second paragraph, it states, 14 "Between November '91 and July '92" and goes on 15 to talk about the contact you had and some 16 interactions you had with the church there. 17 A. Right. 18 Q. It also talks there about mediator 19 between CFC, Christian Fellowship Church, and the 20 Church of Scientology. Do you see that? 21 A. No. Where is that at? 22 Q. In that same paragraph. 23 A. Paragraph 2? 24 Q. Of the second page, correct. See the 25 second sentence that says: 2903 1 "Because of my close 2 relationship with Davis and 3 Paine, I also acted as a 4 mediator between them and 5 members of the Church of 6 Scientology in what became a 7 gradually deteriorating 8 relationship between the two." 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So this paragraph covers the 11 activities of the Church of Scientology with 12 relation to CFC? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. There is no mention in this letter, 15 is there, of the so-called death plot against 16 Cynthia Kisser during that same time? 17 A. No, there is not. 18 MR. BOWLES: Thank you. 19 I want to show you some new exhibits, 20 now. This will be Exhibit-200. 21 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 200 22 was marked for identification and is 23 bound separately.) 24 BY MR. BOWLES: 25 Q. I ask you to identify that. Is that 2904 1 your signature on the last page? 2 A. I believe it is. 3 Q. Did you prepare this letter to 4 Mr. Biermans? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you prepare it in December of 7 1985? 8 A. I believe I did. 9 Q. Let's take a look at the bottom of 10 the first page. And would you read the last two 11 lines and then on into the remaining part of the 12 paragraph which is at the top of Page 2. 13 A. Sure. 14 "Was also involved in 15 spying activities for CFF and 16 PAC, actions which could have 17 easily been constituted criminal 18 activities since many of my 19 information-gathering activities 20 involved theft and burglary of 21 Unification Church documents, 22 mail and other materials which 23 would assist CFF PAC in locating 24 the residences of church members 25 and future activities of 2905 1 Unification Church members." 2 I don't dispute that. 3 Q. So that's true? 4 A. No. It is absolutely not true. And 5 this has been discussed on record again. 6 If you recall, Mr. Bowles, I said 7 first of all I would not discuss the content of 8 this letter after because, as you read the top of 9 it -- I am going to let the camera look at it, 10 sir -- it is stamped "confidential," 11 confidential by the Church of Scientology under a 12 therapist-client privilege, sir. 13 But as I have said before, and I will 14 relate this, and I am not going to go into it 15 further because it is already on record, that you 16 have breached my therapist-client privilege 17 through this proceeding here. That at the time I 18 was a Mormon. And I was told by my Bishop to make 19 amends to everyone that I had insulted. 20 And I contacted not only the Church 21 of Scientology, I contacted John Biermans, the 22 Unification Church. I even wrote a letter to 23 Moses Durst, who is the president of the 24 Unification Church, who related me back to John 25 Biermans. I was told by Scientology that I 2906 1 should, if I wanted to make amends to Scientology, 2 that I needed to talk about the criminal aspects 3 of Positive Action Center and CFF. 4 So I did this as a deliberate means 5 to try to rectify any problems I had with the 6 Church of Scientology and also the Unification 7 Church. And again the content of this letter 8 appeared in a book which Mr. Biermans published 9 without my consent, without my knowledge and 10 played several references to this letter, which 11 was provided to the Church of Scientology at their 12 request and marked confidential. 13 And you, sir, have breached 14 confidentiality here and I will not discuss it 15 further, sir. 16 Q. That is the exhibit. Give it to the 17 court reporter. 18 A. I am sorry. 19 And I will certainly address it to 20 the court the fact that you are now submitting 21 confidential documents intentionally breaching my 22 therapist-client privilege and priest-penitent 23 privilege in these proceedings, sir. 24 Q. That necessarily means that your 25 testimony is that the Church of Scientology is a 2907 1 church and religion? 2 MR. CALHOUN: Objection. 3 BY MR. BOWLES: 4 Q. Yes or no. 5 A. No, absolutely not. Mr. Bowles, you 6 represented to me, not you, sir, but members of 7 the Church of Scientology, at the time that I was 8 in a therapist-client privilege, in a 9 priest-penitent privilege. I was assured a 10 confidence. I was assured it was sacred within 11 the Church of Scientology that this was 12 confidential and would never be revealed, and now 13 you have proven to me, sir, that it is bullshit. 14 That you used it to blackmail people. And you as 15 an attorney have breached and compromised your 16 position to do it. 17 I am going to also draft a letter to 18 the state board and send him a copy of this 19 transcript with the exhibits you have submitted 20 and I will see to it that you are censured by the 21 state Bar. 22 Q. So you are going to transfer to the 23 state Bar the entire cross-examination, 24 Mr. Scarff? 25 A. Asked and answered. If you don't 2908 1 like it, go to hell. 2 Q. Make sure that you get everything in 3 context, won't you? 4 A. Mr. Bowles, by the time it goes to 5 the state Bar you will probably be behind bars and 6 Rona will be looking for another husband. And you 7 will find a new boyfriend. 8 MR. BOWLES: We are now going to show you 9 Exhibit-201. 10 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 201 11 was marked for identification and is 12 bound separately.) 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Is that your signature on the second 15 page? 16 A. I haven't read it yet, sir. 17 Q. Do you recognize your signature on 18 the second page? 19 A. No, sir, I don't. 20 Q. So you are going to read the document 21 and then tell me whether it is your signature; is 22 that right? 23 A. Well, I can tell you right now this 24 is not my letter because it is dated October 21st, 25 1989. I did not meet George Robertson until 2909 1 November of 1991 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. And 2 for the camera, sir, this is a forgery by the 3 Church of Scientology. And you, sir, are 4 submitting a forged document. 5 Now, if you would like me to refer to 6 the exhibit, sir, that talks about official Church 7 of Scientology International policy, teaching 8 individuals how to forge documents to be used in 9 legal proceedings, I will be happy to refer to 10 that because it is in evidence, sir. 11 Q. You don't have to. Let me show you a 12 few more and you will probably consider these 13 forgeries to. 14 A. This is a forgery because I didn't 15 even know Dr. George Robertson until November of 16 1991 and this is two years prior to that fact. 17 Q. So you never wrote to George 18 Robertson? 19 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 20 testimony. 21 THE WITNESS: I didn't even know George 22 Robertson until November of 1991. Never met him 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. Did you ever write him a letter in 25 1989? 2910 1 A. Why would I write someone a letter if 2 I didn't know who they were or knew they existed? 3 This is a forgery, sir. Is that what you do when 4 you leave this deposition is you gather and create 5 forgeries to try to win a case that you are 6 naturally losing? Is that what you do with your 7 time, Tim? 8 Q. So you didn't write it him in 1989, 9 yes or no? 10 A. Absolutely not. In fact this will be 11 substance to go with the state Bar complaint as 12 well. 13 MR. BOWLES: Let me show you Exhibit-202. 14 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 202 15 was marked for identification and is 16 bound separately.) 17 THE WITNESS: Not my letter. Did not even 18 know Dr. George Robertson, May 27, 1989. Didn't 19 know there was a Friends of Freedom in 1989. 20 BY MR. BOWLES: 21 Q. So is that your signature on the last 22 page? 23 A. I didn't even know this letter 24 existed so how can it be my signature, sir. 25 Q. So yes or no is that your signature 2911 1 on the last page? 2 A. I just answered the question. Open 3 your ears, jerk. No, it is not my signature. 4 Having a good time? You are smiling 5 an awful lot. Smiling for someone who is going to 6 have it blown up in their face in the future. 7 MR. BOWLES: Let me show you what we will 8 now mark as Exhibit-203. 9 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 203 10 was marked for identification and is 11 bound separately.) 12 THE WITNESS: Well, I know for a fact this 13 is a forgery simply because again it is dated 14 July 1, 1989. I didn't know Dr. Robertson during 15 this time. And also it says here I was on 16 vacation in Australia and New Zealand. 17 Sir, outside of Mexico and Canada I 18 have never been outside the United States. Good 19 try. It doesn't work, Mr. Bowles. 20 BY MR. BOWLES: 21 Q. Is that your signature on the last 22 page of Exhibit-230? 23 A. No, it is the absolutely not my 24 signature. It is not my letter. You are trying 25 too hard to forge and it is not working, 2912 1 Mr. Bowles. 2 I am going to take a break. It has 3 been about 45 minutes. 4 MR. BOWLES: For the record Exhibit-201 is a 5 letter dated 10/21/89 from Gary Scarff to George 6 Robertson, two pages long. 7 Exhibit-202 is a letter dated May 27, 8 1989, Gary Scarff to George Robertson. Three 9 pages long. 10 Exhibit-203 is a letter from Gary 11 Scarff to George Robertson dated July 1st, 1989. 12 Two pages long. 13 THE WITNESS: And they are all forgeries 14 created by the Church of Scientology International 15 which I can substantiate through exhibits which 16 Mr. Bowles does not wish to refer to. 17 MR. BOWLES: Thank you for your unresponsive 18 and self-serving statement. 19 VIDEO OPERATOR: We will go off the record. 20 THE WITNESS: Good performance, Tim. You 21 are not doing well very, though. 22 VIDEO OPERATOR: The time is 2:31 P.M. 23 (Recess taken.) 24 VIDEO OPERATOR: Back on the record. The 25 time is 3:06 P.M. 2913 1 BY MR. BOWLES: 2 Q. Mr. Scarff, let's take a look at 3 Exhibit-92, please. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Did you prepare this letter? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. When? 8 A. I don't recall. Sometime in 9 September of '92 after I left the Church of 10 Scientology. 11 Q. Could you read the third paragraph, 12 please. 13 A. Sure. 14 "I will be remembered in 15 CAN as one who maliciously and 16 deliberately perpetuated an 17 elaborate hoax posing as a 18 survivor of the Jonestown cult 19 tragedy in 1978. Although my 20 actions were supported by others 21 with great animosity against the 22 Cult Awareness Network, I accept 23 full responsibility for my 24 actions during those years of 25 1978 to 1988, which resulted in 2914 1 much pain and a deep sense of 2 betrayal among the many friends 3 I made in the network." 4 Q. So that letter was in the context of 5 your having now left the Church of Scientology? 6 A. This was written in context of not 7 only my leaving Scientology, but addressing the 8 dialogue letter which I had sent out earlier at 9 the directives of David Butterworth, who was the 10 director of Office of Special Affairs, Church of 11 Scientology International. And this was to 12 eradicate that letter. 13 Q. There is no mention in that letter 14 that the Church of Scientology put you up to the 15 so-called Jonestown hoax, is there? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Yesterday we were talking about 18 Exhibit-195, which was the corrections sheet for 19 Exhibit-3, if you recall. 20 A. I don't recall. Let me refer to it. 21 I don't have 195. I don't have 195 with me. My 22 exhibits go up to 189 and I don't believe you have 23 given me copies of any further exhibits since 24 then. 25 Q. We were talking about the math on how 2915 1 many seconds it would have taken you to read each 2 page according to your testimony. 3 A. If we are going to refer to 4 Exhibit-195, you should provide me Exhibit-195 so 5 I can address it. 6 Q. We will come back to it if it is 7 necessary. Let's look at Exhibit-94, sir. Did 8 you prepare this document? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. This claims, does it not, that 11 Mr. Ingram was now threatening you? 12 A. I don't recall anywhere in here, I 13 don't see it here at least, I could be missing 14 something, where he is threatening me. What he is 15 saying here is that he knew that I had 16 corroborated -- let me read it. 17 First paragraph states that he knew I 18 had met with Dan Leipold. Ingram said I was a 19 liar. That I had turned to CAN, demands to know 20 what conversations I had with Cynthia Kisser. 21 They underestimated his ability as a private 22 investigator. That we had both, me and Cynthia 23 Kisser, had been under 24-hour surveillance at 24 home and at work. In fact someone from the church 25 followed me to a restaurant from my home at one 2916 1 point. And that "I had forgotten how badly 2 Cynthia Kisser and CAN had hurt me and messed up 3 my life and that 'I better hope that' I don't 4 forget who I am dealing with in the church." 5 Q. You took those as threats? 6 A. Definitely. Most definitely. 7 Q. The date on this is correct, 8 September 17, 1992? 9 A. I believe that's correct. But given 10 the fact that you have entered forged evidence on 11 the record already, I am not sure, sir. 12 Q. Is that your signature at the bottom? 13 A. I believe it is, but again in the 14 four previous documents you have forged my 15 signature on documents which aren't mine so I am 16 not sure. I can't be sure any more. You have 17 submitted forged evidence so I don't know what is 18 my signature any more or not. 19 Q. Does that apply to your whole 20 deposition? All documents that you have now 21 signed were signed by you may be forgeries? 22 A. That you have submitted may be 23 forgeries, yes. And I would simply like for the 24 Court to refer to Exhibit-114, sir, which is an 25 internal Church of Scientology document which 2917 1 states by policy how to create forged documents 2 except in this regard it is referring to how to 3 forge a document on CIA stationery. And it is a 4 compliance report. It is an internal church 5 document. 6 So given the fact that you, sir, as 7 an attorney in the State of California have 8 introduced into the record Exhibit-No. 201, 202 9 and 203 which are not letters by me, not signed by 10 me, and I can dispute these letters in several 11 cases, we will wait for redirect on that, sir, I 12 don't know whether anything that you have provided 13 in this deposition is accurate or if it is a 14 forgery. 15 How much did you pay Eugene Ingram to 16 do these letters, Mr. Bowles? 17 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 18 A. How much did you pay Eugene to create 19 these letters, Mr. Bowles, and did you pay him 20 last night to do it, Mr. Bowles? 21 Q. I am sorry if these letters 22 contradict all your testimony, but let's go on 23 with the deposition. 24 A. Mr. Bowles, I am going to simply say 25 on record, and I want to get it very clear and you 2918 1 better listen to me, sir, anything that you 2 introduce is evidence that bears my signature, I 3 will not validate it. I don't trust you. You are 4 a forger, you are a liar and you are a criminal. 5 And I am going to hall your ass into court on 6 those terms, sir. I've got a few things on the 7 turnpike waiting for you, Mr. Bowles. 8 Q. Is that a threat? 9 A. It is a promise guaranteed. 10 Q. Is that a threat, Mr. Scarff? 11 A. No, it is a promise. Unlike the 12 Church of Scientology we don't threaten the 13 world. You're the ones that threaten people with 14 lawsuits and harassment and threaten to kill them 15 and playing murderer, sir. That's your beef. 16 That's not our beef. 17 Q. Did you prepare Exhibit-94, sir? 18 A. I believe this is a letter that I 19 sent to Dan Leipold, sir, yes. 20 Q. The contents are true; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Take a look at Exhibit-96. Is that 23 Mr. Ingram's handwriting? 24 A. I believe it is. I believe I got 25 this letter from him. 2919 1 Q. Is that Mr. Ingram's signature? 2 A. It doesn't look like his signature, 3 but I believe it is because this is a letter I got 4 from him. The signature doesn't match up with the 5 writing. It looks like someone may have signed it 6 for him. But where it says G, it looks like Gene, 7 that doesn't match up with the rest of that. If 8 you look at the first where it has G where it says 9 "Good News? Galen," that G certainly doesn't 10 match up with the G in the signature. 11 Q. Did you receive this message from 12 Mr. Ingram? 13 A. I received this in an envelope from 14 Ingram Investigation. So whether he himself 15 signed it, I doubt it because again if you look at 16 the content of the letter where it says it is 17 signed with a letter G, this G, the signature, 18 does not match up with the G or the E or the N 19 anywhere in this letter. It is a totally 20 different style of writing, sir. So someone in 21 your organization has chosen to sign his name to 22 this document. 23 Q. Do you know that for a fact? 24 A. No. I am saying that's my 25 assumption. 2920 1 Q. That's your speculation, isn't it? 2 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 3 THE WITNESS: Characterize it as you wish, 4 sir. You have done it so plainly in this entire 5 proceeding. 6 By the way, Mr. Bowles, I have spoken 7 with counsel and I have simply been told that 8 desperate people make serious mistakes. You 9 should take heed to that, sir. 10 BY MR. BOWLES: 11 Q. I think this deposition is a 12 testament to that, Mr. Scarff. 13 A. Well, I don't lose all cases like you 14 do, sir. 15 Q. Have you made any police reports for 16 what you claim to have been the destruction of 17 court files in Portland, court files regarding the 18 Church of Scientology? 19 A. No. 20 Q. So is it your testimony that court 21 files were completely obliterated on certain 22 cases? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-110. 25 What does the DD stand for at the top of that? 2921 1 A. DD, I believe, is Dissemination 2 Division. US is USOSA and I don't know what the G 3 stands for, sir. 4 Q. Are familiar with the abbreviations? 5 A. I know DD in the Church of 6 Scientology is the Dissemination Division that 7 disseminates documents in the church. 8 Q. Were you familiar with the 9 abbreviations of the Guardian's Office as they 10 were being used in the late '70s? 11 A. I am now. 12 Q. Were you then? 13 A. When, I believe, back in 1985 I was 14 shown certain things and told at that time what 15 they were, yes. 16 Q. So were you shown this document in 17 '85 and told that this was the Dissemination 18 Division, the DD? 19 A. I was asked by Mr. Berry if I 20 recognized this document and I said I did because 21 it refers to hiding people out that are fleeing 22 from governmental prosecution. And I remember 23 Project Quaker being discussed in the Church of 24 Scientology. 25 Q. And you remember DD being referred to 2922 1 as Dissemination Division? 2 A. That is what I believe it to be. 3 This was a disseminated document which was titled 4 "Eye's only, Top Secret," and again it is a 5 document created by the Church of Scientology to 6 teach people how to avoid lawful prosecution of 7 Scientologists. This is a document basically 8 perpetuating unlawful criminal activity. I 9 recognize it as such. 10 Q. Now, you have testified that you were 11 very dependent on the church during the 1980s, 12 haven't you? 13 A. No. I have said as I have said 14 before that I was wishy-washy. I admitted to 15 that. And that I went to wherever the affection 16 was. And so I went to the Church of Scientology 17 for affection and I went to the Greeks for 18 affection and I went to my mother for affection 19 and I went wherever it felt good at the time. 20 Q. Is that what you are doing today? 21 A. Bowles, go to hell. 22 Q. Go where you get affection, 23 Mr. Scarff? 24 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Bowles, you are the one 2923 1 that in this deposition has winked at me. You are 2 the one that has asked me about homosexual 3 activity and behavior. 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. Mr. Scarff, I have not winked at 6 you. 7 A. You have. It is clear to me you have 8 some misguided affections that you cannot 9 control. 10 Do you find it funny, Mr. Bowles? 11 Q. Very. 12 A. Good. It is on camera and it will 13 show in court. I don't find it funny at all. 14 Q. All right. So was Gwen Mayfield a 15 member of OSA at any point when you knew her? 16 A. Yes, she was. 17 Q. When? 18 A. From November of 1991 through 19 September of 1992 she in fact identified herself 20 as a director of the OSA Portland, Oregon. 21 Q. Prior to that was she a member of the 22 OSA? 23 A. I don't believe so. She told me 24 prior to that that she had been the president of 25 the Church of Scientology and that she had also 2924 1 been a legal clerk for you and Mike Gordon. 2 Q. So when she was president of the 3 Church of Scientology, as you claim, she was not a 4 member of OSA? 5 A. I am not saying that. I don't know. 6 I just know that you have asked me if I knew for a 7 fact that she was OSA and I said between November 8 of '91 and September of '92 I know for a fact she 9 was OSA. If she was OSA before that I don't 10 know. Ask her. 11 Q. Now, you helped out a fellow out in 12 Oklahoma at one point, Lobsinger; is that right? 13 A. I am sorry? 14 Q. Did you help out this fellow 15 Lobsinger in Oklahoma at one point? 16 A. I don't even know Lobsinger. 17 Q. Have you ever heard of a Senator 18 Lobsinger? 19 A. I have heard of him, yes. In fact we 20 were involved in a hospitality center, the Friends 21 of Freedom scheme to get at the Cult Awareness 22 Network and Lobsinger was one of the targets. 23 Q. I see. So he was a target of yours; 24 is that right? 25 A. He wasn't a target of me. He was a 2925 1 target of the Church of Scientology 2 International. Let's get the facts straight. 3 Q. You have never attacked Senator 4 Lobsinger? 5 A. I don't recall in November of 1991 6 which you have referred to as attacking Reverend 7 Lobsinger. I know there has been information that 8 has come out that Lobsinger was one of the 9 individuals responsible for discrediting 10 Narc-Anon, which is the so-called Scientology drug 11 rehab center in Oklahoma. 12 Q. Is he a reverend or a senator? 13 A. He could be both. I don't know. You 14 would know. You are the one that has planned 15 these attacks on him. You are with OSA. 16 Q. I am asking for your knowledge. 17 A. I don't know. I believe -- 18 Q. So when you call him senator you 19 don't know if he is a senator or not? 20 A. I believe he is a state senator. He 21 is a state center senator or he is a house 22 member. I don't know. He is a politican of some 23 sort. He received the Ryan award in November of 24 '91. And he was one of the individuals that came 25 down to the hospitality center where I, George 2926 1 Robertson, Anne Laws, Kathy Norman, Sue Taylor, 2 all officials of the Church of Scientology, were 3 at when we were doing this disruption campaign of 4 the Cult Awareness Network, in which the Office of 5 Special Affairs, of which you, sir, are a member, 6 was totally responsible for and totally funded. 7 So you know as well as I do what 8 happened, don't we, Tim? You can sit there with 9 that little smirk on your face but you and I both 10 know what happened, don't we, Tim? 11 Q. Mr. Scarff, do you have any basis at 12 all for calling Lobsinger a senator? 13 A. It is my belief based upon what I 14 heard that he is a state senator. Not a U.S. 15 senator but I believe he is a state senator and I 16 believe Ingram told me that. Because Ingram, I 17 believe it was Ingram that told me that, that he 18 was trying to get at Lobsinger at one point. And 19 him not being able to get at Lobsinger that he 20 went to Oklahoma and harangued his one son and 21 made his son feel threatened just to get at the 22 young Lobsinger's father. And of course we all 23 know that Mr. Ingram is employed by Timothy Bowles 24 of Bowles & Moxon so you were a part of that 25 harassment campaign against a young child. 2927 1 Q. Okay. All right. 2 What is your project with Jon Atack, 3 Mr. Scarff? 4 A. That's none of your business. 5 Q. You brought it up in direct so I 6 think we will ask about it. So what is it? 7 A. I just told you, sir, it is none of 8 your business? 9 Q. Page 440 of the transcript, 10 "Mr. Atack and I are in fact working on a project 11 together." What is that project? 12 A. I have been informed since giving 13 that testimony by counsel that that is personal 14 and privileged information. And given the fact 15 that you in the past have unlawfully implemented 16 the Fair Game policy against Jon Atack, you have 17 sued him, you have sued the publisher, which 18 sought to publish his book -- by the way which was 19 unsuccessful. And it is successfully being 20 distributed today to the objections of 21 Scientology. In effect that you have done 22 everything you can to cause this man great pain 23 and anguish. You know where he lives. You know 24 who is involved in dealing with that person. You 25 deal with it. You know where he is at. You deal 2928 1 with it, sir. 2 Q. So what is the project, Mr. Scarff? 3 A. Asked and answered. 4 Q. So you are refusing to answer that 5 question? 6 A. Asked and answered. The record 7 speaks for itself, sir. 8 Q. Now, you are pretty knowledgeable 9 about the first Christofferson trial? 10 A. Yes, somewhat. 11 Q. Did you sit through part of that 12 trial? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. You were in the courtroom there? 15 A. Yes, I was. 16 Q. Who were the attorneys for the 17 plaintiff? 18 A. The attorneys for the plaintiff was 19 Earl Cooley and another gentleman whom I do not 20 recall. 21 Q. In 1979 Mr. Cooley was counsel? 22 A. No. We are talking about 1985 here. 23 Q. I am asking you about '79. 24 A. You asked me about the Christofferson 25 trial which I have referred to already and it was 2929 1 1985. So let's not mischaracterize the testimony, 2 sir. 3 Q. Was there a prior trial? 4 A. There was a prior trial. 5 Q. Were you an expert on that trial? 6 A. I have never been an expert on any 7 trial. 8 Q. Did you sit in on the first trial? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Do you have any idea what occurred in 11 that trial? 12 A. Yes. The Church of Scientology lost 13 and the verdict was overturned for some reason 14 which I don't recall. 15 Q. Do you have any idea what occurred in 16 the proceedings in that trial? 17 A. No. 18 Q. So you wouldn't know what the 19 circumstances were of any jury view by either the 20 plaintiff or defendant, would you? 21 A. From conversations that I had with 22 other people, yes. I mean jury view wouldn't be 23 rational or concede that the jury didn't have a 24 lot of appreciation for the Church of Scientology 25 and the fact that they awarded a $2.5 million 2930 1 judgment against the Church of Scientology. I 2 mean that's logical to me. Isn't it logical to 3 you or do you think logically? 4 Q. What were the circumstances to the 5 jury view in that case? 6 A. I don't understand what you are 7 asking me. 8 Q. What were the circumstances of the 9 jury view in that case? 10 A. I just answered your question. 11 Q. You don't understand it? 12 A. If you are not satisfied with my 13 answer I would think that it would be rational 14 even with you, Mr. Bowles, that I don't understand 15 what you are trying to get at. 16 Q. Okay. I will rephrase it. 17 Are you aware that the jury viewed 18 the Delphian School during the course of that 19 trial? 20 A. No. 21 Q. So you wouldn't know what you are 22 talking about when you are talking about the jury 23 view in that case, would you? 24 A. You are talking about a legal term 25 that I do not know anything about. When you say 2931 1 jury view, what does that mean? 2 Q. A visit by the jury of a site outside 3 the court room. And I will rephrase the 4 question. 5 You wouldn't know what you are 6 talking about if you were to talk about a jury 7 view of the Delphian School during the course of 8 that trial, would you? 9 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 10 THE WITNESS: In 1979, no. 11 BY MR. BOWLES: 12 Q. How about in '85? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Was there a jury view of Delphi, 15 Oregon in 1985 during that trial? 16 A. I believe a visit was made, yes. And 17 I believe also there is an exhibit in this which 18 refers to that. And it is the Church of 19 Scientology document which refers to not only 20 that, I believe, but also refers to the anger felt 21 by the Church of Scientology in that regard and 22 the fact that operations were taken to incriminate 23 Judge Paul Jones, who was the proceeding judge in 24 that case, as a vengeful act. And that was an 25 internal document created by the Church of 2932 1 Scientology International which I will find. 2 Q. I want to ask you another question. 3 A. Well, if you are going to talk about 4 the Christofferson case I would like to refer to 5 this exhibit. 6 Q. That one is withdrawn. Have you ever 7 met Charles Mertin? 8 A. If you are going to talk about the 9 Christofferson case in any detail, Mr. Bowles, I 10 would like to refer to this document. 11 Q. Why don't you wait until redirect, 12 Mr. Scarff. I am going on with my questions. 13 A. Go ahead with your questions. I have 14 the right to refer to the exhibits as a witness 15 and you cannot impede on that right to do so. 16 Q. Have you ever met Charles Mertin? 17 A. As soon as I find this document, 18 Mr. Bowles, I will respond to your question 19 truthfully and accurately. Unless you know the 20 exhibit number and then I can refer to it a lot 21 faster. It deals with the Christo conspiracy 22 which you created, sir. 23 Q. If you are going to insist on it, 24 Mr. Scarff, why don't you make your speech and get 25 it over with. It is Exhibit-125. 2933 1 A. 125. Thank you, Mr. Bowles. I 2 believe there is another exhibit too. I think it 3 is preceding it. 4 It is actually Exhibits-124 and 125, 5 Mr. Bowles. And I have got it, thank you. Go 6 ahead. 7 Q. Let's go to -- have you ever met 8 Mr. Mertin? 9 A. Not to my knowledge. I recall that 10 he was an attorney in either the first or the 11 second case. When I was in court it was -- 12 Mr. Mertin was not there. 13 I also believe now that I think back 14 to the Christofferson trial there was an attorney 15 by the name of Jack Kennedy involved. But I don't 16 recall which trial it was. 17 Q. Let's find Page 518 of the 18 transcript. I ask you what you meant here. 19 If you could please read from the 20 question at Line 11 on this Page 518, to Line 21 21 of the same page. 22 A. "Q. I have met with you 23 prior to your deposition being 24 taken, haven't I? 25 "A. You met with me and 2934 1 you showed me documents and you 2 interviewed me as I suspect any 3 attorney would interview someone 4 before taking the time and 5 expense to bring them into 6 deposition. But at no time have 7 you scripted me anything, and I 8 seem to recall several 9 incidences where I got very 10 volatile towards you because I 11 didn't appreciate the way you 12 were treating me in certain 13 respects." 14 Q. What were the circumstances under 15 which you got so-called volatile? 16 A. I have gotten volatile, when I say 17 volatile I mean very angry and very upset with the 18 fact that this deposition now is in its 17th day, 19 that I was told I would be out here a week and a 20 half. That this has caused me a lot of discomfort 21 because this deposition has dragged on and that 22 despite the total lack of faith that I have in any 23 type of trust in the Church of Scientology, I am 24 starting to lose some of my trust and respect for 25 attorneys in this law firm with the fact that I 2935 1 have been held out here way beyond the time I was 2 told to. 3 And there is a judge in this case who 4 believes that depositions should be able to 5 continue as long as they wish without regard to 6 the witness' situation. And that made may angry. 7 And that's it. 8 Q. So you have lashed out as a result of 9 that, haven't you, Mr. Scarff? 10 A. No, I haven't lashed out against 11 anything, Mr. Bowles. That's your words. That is 12 your mischaracterization. I have simply said -- 13 hey, let's look at the facts. Last Friday you 14 refused to come to a deposition, Mr. Bowles, 15 because you had another commitment to go to. Did 16 you lash out because you refused to come here, 17 sir? I didn't see a lash-out. 18 Q. So the context of this comment is the 19 interview prior to this deposition, right? 20 A. No. It has been this entire 21 proceeding. 22 Q. I am talking about what you just read 23 in the transcript. 24 A. Again I don't know the date, sir. 25 You didn't give me the preface pages. 2936 1 Q. "Q. I have met with you 2 prior to your deposition being 3 taken, haven't I? 4 "A. You have met with me 5 and showed me documents and you 6 interviewed me as I suspect any 7 attorney would interview 8 somebody before taking the time 9 and expense to bring them into 10 deposition. But at no time have 11 you scripted to me anything, and 12 I seem to recall several 13 incidents where I got very 14 volatile towards you because I 15 didn't appreciate the way you 16 were treating me in certain 17 respects." 18 So my question to you, Mr. Scarff, 19 that comment is referring to the prior interview 20 you had with Mr. Berry before this deposition 21 began, isn't that right? 22 A. Mr. Bowles, two things. One, you 23 have interrupted me when I tried to get the 24 prefacing copies. Two, you will not let me see 25 the prefacing copies so I can authenticate the 2937 1 fact when this happened. 2 I am not going to give you an 3 answer. You are setting me up. You are taking 4 this out of context. You are not letting me see 5 the testimony. You are not letting me see the 6 preceding pages so I can refer to this in an 7 accurate, truthful way. There is no point in 8 answering a question when you will not cooperate, 9 sir. 10 Q. How many more pages do you want? 11 A. I would like to see three pages and I 12 would like to see the cover sheet for that 13 transcript so I can validate the date that 14 testimony was given, sir. I would appreciate it. 15 When did our deposition start? It 16 started on Monday? 17 MR. CALHOUN: The 27th. 18 THE WITNESS: I refer, Mr. Bowles, to 19 Page 516 of this transcript dated Thursday, July 20 29th, 1993 in continued deposition, Line 16: 21 "Q." And it is by 22 Mr. Berry. "Mr. Scarff, just 23 before you broke you wondered 24 whether you were being 25 responsive to my questions. I 2938 1 apologize if my questions some 2 times seem abstruse, but this is 3 direct examination and certain 4 requirements exist as to the 5 form of questions. One being 6 that as much as possible I 7 should avoid asking leading 8 questions. So despite the fact 9 that there is no opposing 10 counsel here, that they seem to 11 have waived their right to be 12 present, I am nonetheless 13 struggling to ensure that 14 questions remain correct as to 15 form." 16 I recall during the time that I was 17 speaking to Mr. Berry that he would ask a 18 question. He would rephrase a question and I -- 19 this is the longest deposition that I have ever 20 been in. I have never been in a deposition before 21 of this type, of this length, to this degree. And 22 I have gotten very tired of it. And it was 23 wearing me out being asked question as to question 24 as to question and I didn't know what Mr. Berry 25 was doing, although I understand now that 2939 1 evidently you have to phrase your questions as to 2 some kind of form that is applicable to the 3 judicial system. I am not a lawyer so I don't 4 know. 5 Q. Let's look at Page 518, Mr. Scarff. 6 A. 518. 7 Q. The passage you just read that begins 8 a little exchange, are you referring to -- 9 A. It was 516, not 518, Mr. Bowles. 10 516, sir? Right there? That's what I was 11 referring to, not 518. 12 Q. Fine. I want you to look at 518. 13 A. 518. Okay. 14 Q. 518 now. The passage that you read 15 that begins this exchange begins at Line 14, I 16 believe, maybe 13, in there somewhere, are you 17 referring there to your exchange with Mr. Berry in 18 the initial interview of early July prior to the 19 beginning of this deposition? 20 A. No, I am referring to -- wait a 21 second. 22 Q. Take a look at his question there. 23 A. Let me go back to Line 1. Thank 24 you. 25 No, this is referring to the 2940 1 deposition. 2 Q. The question was "I have met with you 3 prior to your deposition being taken, haven't I?" 4 That's Lines 11 and 12. 5 A. Yes. What he is referring to in the 6 form of a question -- 7 Q. So your answer had nothing to do with 8 that? Is that right? 9 A. You are right. This is not with the 10 deposition. This is from the declaration that I 11 gave him on -- I believe it was July 6th. 12 Q. 6th and 7th? 13 A. 6th and 7th. Right. You are 14 correct, Mr. Bowles. 15 Q. What are you referring to there when 16 you say you get volatile towards his action? 17 A. "Volatile" is not a correct word. I 18 am sure Mr. Berry could come in this deposition 19 and tell you that I was not volatile towards him. 20 It was simply the way I characterized it at the 21 time. 22 Mr. Berry could honestly tell you 23 that I was getting frustrated with the legal 24 process. I was getting frustrated with some of 25 his questions because he would address questions, 2941 1 address them again and address them again and I 2 got frustrated sitting in a chair eight hours a 3 day, twice a day going over and going over and 4 going over again. 5 And I got frustrated and I lashed out 6 at him. I didn't lash out physically. I simply 7 expressed myself and I expressed my frustration as 8 any human being who has never been involved in a 9 process like this before. And I apologized and he 10 apologized and nothing came of it. 11 Q. When was the first time you met Ken 12 Hoden? 13 A. I believe it was spring of 1982, and 14 I remember him plainly because I thought he was a 15 Catholic priest when I saw him. 16 Q. I would like you to read Pages 863 17 and 864 starting at Line 4 on 863 and continuing 18 to Line 23 of 864, please. 19 A. "Q. Now, did there come a 20 point in time of your life that 21 you became associated with the 22 Church of Scientology? 23 "A. I took a personality 24 test in May of 1976 at the 25 former office of the org, 2942 1 Scientology organization on the 2 corner of Southwest Broadway and 3 Salmon Street. And from that 4 personality test in which I 5 failed drastically I was told I 6 had quite a few problems that 7 needed to be dealt with. I 8 signed up for a communication 9 course and I stayed with that 10 course for approximately, if I 11 recall, one, one and a half 12 weeks, and then I left because I 13 was being pressured very heavily 14 for additional money to take any 15 further, more courses. 16 "Q. When was this? 17 "A. This would have been 18 May of 1976. 19 "Q. And in what manner 20 were you being pressured to take 21 further courses? 22 "A. Well, I was told the 23 communications course was the 24 most introductory course you 25 could take in Scientology and 2943 1 that I had to, in addition to 2 taking the communications 3 course, I needed to sign up for 4 auditing. And that auditing was 5 $100 per hour. 6 "And I told them that I 7 could come up with $100 and in 8 fact did pay them $100 for one 9 hour of auditing, but I was told 10 that the $100 was simply a down 11 payment to the package that I 12 had to pay for. Because 13 auditing is not given on an 14 individual basis. You have to 15 sign up for a package of it for 16 it to be effective and that they 17 only sold auditing in package 18 sessions of $1,500. And that I 19 had to come up with an 20 additional $1,400." 21 Q. I don't think you read quite as 22 far -- 23 A. I am sorry, 23. 24 "And when I told them I 25 could not do that there was a 2944 1 minister by the name of Leigha 2 Clark working at the Mission of 3 Davis which at the time was 4 right across the street from the 5 org. And Leigha and another 6 gentleman there whom I remember 7 as Ken Hoden, whom struck me as 8 being a priest of some sort, 9 because he wore his black garb 10 with a white collar that you 11 would usually see of a Catholic 12 priest wear." 13 Q. So which is it, did you meet him in 14 May of '76 or did you meet him in '82? 15 A. I guess this confirms, and I thank 16 you for refreshing my memory, Mr. Bowles, that I 17 met him in '76 instead of '82. But the events are 18 correct. Because as I have said on record before 19 I remember him because he looked like a Catholic 20 priest. 21 Q. So it wasn't in '82? 22 A. Now you refreshed my memory. Thank 23 you, sir. I wouldn't have thought about it unless 24 you brought that up. 25 Q. But you would have sworn to '82 if I 2945 1 hadn't brought that up, wouldn't you? 2 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 3 THE WITNESS: No. As I have said before, I 4 believe it to be that time. But again we are 5 dealing with my memory and we are dealing with the 6 fact that I have been here now, what, 16 days in 7 deposition. It is getting a little tiring putting 8 up with your BS, Mr. Bowles. But I am trying. 9 BY MR. BOWLES: 10 Q. Did you steal money from CAN? 11 A. Yes, sir, I did. Not from CAN but 12 from the Positive Action Center which at that time 13 was an affiliate of the Cult Awareness Network. 14 Q. How much did you steal? 15 A. I believe it was like $400. It could 16 have been more. But -- 17 Q. When was that? 18 A. I am going to say between late 1987 19 to early 1988. It was prior to my going to 20 Milwaukee. 21 Q. Let's take a look at Exhibit-101. 22 What is this, Mr. Scarff? 23 A. This is a letter that I received from 24 the Celebrity Center which is actually the address 25 says Celebrity Center, Hubbard Dianetics 2946 1 Foundation, 709 Southwest Salmon Street. That is 2 in fact the Church of Scientology Mission of 3 Davis. The Celebrity Center is in an adjoining 4 building. 5 Q. Can you read that for us the 6 handwriting? 7 A. "Gary: Happy holidays and have a 8 great, great 1993. How have you been?" It is not 9 signed but it has Benjamin Klevit at the top. 10 Q. Please read Page 810 of the 11 transcript from Line 5 through Line 21. 12 A. "Q. Now, let's turn to 13 what will be Exhibit-101. What 14 is 101? 15 "A. 101 is a greetings 16 that I received from the Church 17 of Scientology on the 18 letterhead. It says Celebrity 19 Center. It is actually from the 20 Mission of Davis and it is a 21 greeting from the Mission of 22 Davis wishing me a happy 23 holidays and a great 1993." 24 And down at the bottom it says "How 25 have you been?" 2947 1 Q. Keep going. 2 A. "That's relevant to me 3 because two months prior to the 4 time I received this I was in 5 deposition at the Church of 6 Scientology and they were very 7 much aware that I had left the 8 Church of Scientology and by 9 this time I was being subject to 10 fair game. And I think this is 11 just a kind of a slap in the 12 face to me and harassment." 13 Q. So, Mr. Scarff, Exhibit-101 is proof 14 of fair game; is that right? 15 A. I never said that. That's not my 16 testimony. You are mischaracterizing it again. 17 Q. So Exhibit-101 is "just a kind of 18 slap on the face to me and harassment"; is that 19 right? 20 A. Don't you find it strange, 21 Mr. Bowles, that given the fact that on October 26 22 I was in a deposition with Mr. Leipold which was 23 interrupted and turned into a three-ring circus by 24 your co-counsel, Mr. Wiener, and then several 25 months later I get a Christmas greetings from 2948 1 Scientology saying "Happy holidays and have a 2 great, great 1993." 3 By this time I am sure everyone in 4 the Scientology was aware that I had left and that 5 I had turned against it in my testimony, if you 6 want to use those terms. Why would I receive a 7 greetings card from the Church of Scientology when 8 in fact they went head over heels to disrupt a 9 deposition that I was giving which in essence was 10 against the Church of Scientology. Tell me where 11 that makes sense, Mr. Bowles. You are an 12 intelligent man. You don't want to answer? 13 Q. Next question. 14 A. No answer. I didn't think so. 15 Nothing but the truth, huh, Mr. Bowles. 16 Q. Yeah, let's get some more truth out 17 here. 18 Mr. Scarff, have you turned back to 19 the Church of Scientology at any point since that 20 date? 21 A. No, not that I recall. You mean 22 since leaving the Church of Scientology? 23 Q. No, since this date when you got this 24 harassing Christmas card. 25 A. Have I turned back to the Church of 2949 1 Scientology? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you made any action which is 5 favorable to the church since then? 6 A. To the church, no. Not that I can 7 recall. I mean, I recall in deposition with Dan 8 Leipold of the Cult Awareness Network there was an 9 occasion where something was said to me which I 10 did not find judicial and I thought was wrong in 11 the context of what was happening at the time. 12 And I wrote a letter -- first I made 13 a phone call to Andrew Wilson which is one of your 14 WOG attorneys. And following my deposition with 15 Dan Leipold, and I forgot the date, I believe it 16 was July, it was my first deposition in -- I am 17 sorry, it was my last deposition with Andrew 18 Wilson. I sat down with Mr. Wilson and gave him a 19 separate statement following that deposition and I 20 said that I am not speaking on behalf of the 21 Church of Scientology, I am not speaking on behalf 22 of Dan Leipold. I simply wanted to make a 23 statement about something that had been said to me 24 which I had major disagreements with. And I said 25 that on record. And I signed it in front of a 2950 1 notary public. 2 Now, if you want to say that 3 construes support for the Church of Scientology, 4 it may be, but it was the truth. And there were 5 statements made to me by Gerry Armstrong and Ford 6 Greene. 7 Q. So in that instance you lashed out at 8 Mr. Greene, didn't you? 9 A. No. I didn't lash -- Mr. Bowles. 10 Get a life, please. Oh, God. I am not going to 11 dignify that stupid question with a response. 12 MR. BOWLES: All right. Let's mark 13 Exhibit-204 and 205. Counsel, here are copies for 14 you. 15 204 is a letter dated April 26, 1993 16 from Garry L. Scarff to Daniel Leipold. One 17 page. And 205 will be a copy of an interview with 18 Mr. Scarff with the Wisel caption and it goes to a 19 page 16. 20 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-Nos. 204 21 and 205 was marked for identification 22 and is bound separately.) 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 BY MR. BOWLES: 25 Q. Are those the two documents you were 2951 1 just referring to in your testimony? 2 A. Yes, they are. 3 Q. I want you to now read from the 4 transcript starting at Page 813 at Line 10, 5 Mr. Scarff, and continue on to 814 at Line 5, 6 please. 7 A. "Q. Do you have any 8 knowledge of who Larry Leiser 9 is? 10 "A. Yes. I was 11 contacted by an attorney 12 representing Galen Kelly who 13 deprograms cult members and is 14 also a member of the Cult 15 Awareness Network, and he asked 16 me to locate information -- I am 17 sorry, to locate the name of a 18 school that Ms. Leiser -- 19 Mr. Leiser's young daughter 20 attended, and he told me that 21 Larry Leiser, who was an 22 assistant U.S. Attorney, was 23 sympathetic to the Church of 24 Scientology and that his 25 daughter was attending a 2952 1 Scientology school in southern 2 Virginia somewhere. 3 "And I did some research 4 and I called around and the 5 information I received from a 6 source was that she was 7 attending the Ability School in 8 Chesapeake, Virginia and I 9 passed this information on to 10 him. Now, whether that 11 information has been confirmed 12 or not, I don't know. But 13 that's the information I got 14 from the source which I happen 15 to believe to be credible." 16 Q. Who was your credible source? 17 A. I refuse to provide that information 18 to you. That is privileged. That is personal. 19 That is privacy. 20 Q. You were spying on the U.S. Attorney 21 there, Mr. Scarff? 22 A. Mr. Calhoun -- 23 No, sir. I don't even know 24 Mr. Leiser. How would I spy on the U.S. 25 Attorney? 2953 1 Q. Were you conducting an undercover 2 investigation of his private life, sir? 3 A. No. I was not. I don't even know 4 him. 5 Q. This is an accurate transcription of 6 your testimony, isn't it? 7 A. It is. According to a source that 8 information was confirmed to me and I relayed it 9 back to Galen Kelly's attorney. 10 Q. When was that? 11 A. That is none of your business. 12 Q. Was it within the last two years? 13 A. Asked and answered. 14 Q. Are you refusing to answer that 15 question? 16 A. Yes, I am. 17 Q. Are you refusing to answer any more 18 questions with regard to your investigation of 19 Mr. Leiser? 20 A. Yes, I am. Talk to Eugene Ingram. 21 You pay him to do those types of things. 22 Q. Have you ever worked as an undercover 23 security agent? 24 A. Yes, I have. 25 Q. When was that? 2954 1 A. I think my work record is also 2 personal and private and none of your business, 3 sir. If you want to -- 4 Q. Even if you have already brought it 5 up in this deposition? 6 A. I have been advised by counsel that 7 that's personal and private, sir. At the time 8 before I was without representation. I am without 9 representation now, and I have told you that is 10 personal and private. If you want to bring it up, 11 talk to the wall because I won't talk to you. 12 Q. You have a lawyer now, don't you? 13 A. I do not have a lawyer now. I speak 14 with counsel, sir. If you want -- 15 Q. You have counsel now; is that right? 16 A. I have spoken with counsel. 17 Q. Counsel that represents you in this 18 matter? 19 A. I am not going to respond to that, 20 sir. It is none of your business. I receive 21 legal advice from an attorney who has told me what 22 my rights and responsibilities are. Particularly 23 my rights which you, sir, have tried to breach 24 throughout this deposition. And if that to you 25 infers an attorney-client privilege or 2955 1 attorney-client relationship, fine. But I have 2 signed no contracts with any attorney. And as you 3 can see, unless you are totally blind, I have no 4 attorney sitting next to me, sir. I am here by 5 myself. 6 Q. You are calling a lawyer and you 7 consult with him on breaks; is that right? 8 A. Actually I have called several 9 lawyers. 10 Q. You are represented by more than one 11 lawyer in this deposition? 12 A. I have never seen said that. You 13 have characterized it as that. You are the one 14 playing games here. So characterize it as you 15 wish. 16 Q. Why don't you read from Page 860 from 17 Line 13 to Line 1 of 861? 18 A. "Q. And then what? Where 19 did you work? 20 "A. I had various jobs 21 in the area as a store 22 detective, undercover security 23 person for various stores with 24 an agency called Western 25 Intelligence Services and I was 2956 1 put in various stores throughout 2 the area on a contract basis for 3 store detective work. Had one 4 position at Montgomery Wards as 5 an undercover security person. 6 "Q. And did you cease 7 doing that at some point in 8 time? 9 "A. I ceased doing 10 security work following 11 graduation from school. And 12 shortly before graduating with 13 my Bachelor's Degree I joined 14 the Air Force ROTC" -- 15 Q. I think you have read too far now. 16 Just to Line 1. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. Is that an accurate transcript of 19 your testimony? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So you are still refusing to answer 22 questions even though you talked about this 23 undercover work on direct? 24 A. I have been advised by counsel that 25 my work history, medical history, family history 2957 1 is confidential information. It is private. 2 Q. So that should be stricken from the 3 direct testimony; is that your position? 4 A. What my position is is that if a 5 judge in this case wishes me to speak about those 6 things which an attorney has told me is personal 7 information and is not required to be brought up 8 in a deposition, and the judge rules that I should 9 talk about it, then most certainly I will abide by 10 a judge's instructions. But until that time, no, 11 sir, I am not going to answer any questions about 12 my work history to you. 13 MR. BOWLES: It is just about four o'clock. 14 Why don't we take our last break. 15 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The date 16 is August 17, 1993. The time is 3:59 P.M. End of 17 Tape 2. Volume VX. Continuing deposition of 18 Mr. Scarff. 19 (Recess taken.) 20 VIDEO OPERATOR: We are back on the record. 21 The date is August 17th, 1993. The time is 22 4:33 P.M. Beginning of Tape 3, Volume VX, 23 continuing deposition of Mr. Scarff. 24 BY MR. BOWLES: 25 Q. Mr. Scarff, you had a close personal 2958 1 relationship with the Greeks from 1979 to August 2 1988; is that correct? 3 A. I would not characterize it as that. 4 Q. Well, let's take a look at 5 Exhibit-9. And if you could read not out loud 6 just read to yourself Paragraphs 3, 4 and 5, 7 please. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. So are those paragraphs true? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What part of these are not true now? 12 A. I knew Adrian and Anne Greek from 13 those times until August of '88. I was in a 14 position of being able to contact Adrian and Anne 15 Greek until August of 1988. That was my 16 relationship at the time. I was close with them 17 until I left to join the Mormon Church in August 18 of '84, and had no contact with them for 19 approximately a year and a half. 20 And then after two months, I believe 21 it was two or three months after leaving the 22 Mormon Church, I established contact with them 23 again. And it is already on record the fact that 24 I established contact with them at a cult 25 education forum at Holy Rosary Church in Portland. 2959 1 Q. Is it not accurate then in 2 Paragraph 5 when it says, "I developed a close 3 personal relationship with the Greeks, 4 particularly Anne Greek. This relationship lasted 5 until about August of 1988"? 6 A. What I meant to say there was that we 7 had a personal relationship. And never during 8 that time did the relationship break down to where 9 we were no longer friends. But it wasn't personal 10 and intimate during the entire time, no. 11 Q. So Paragraph 5 is not accurate, then? 12 A. No. 13 Q. During that period of time did you do 14 anything hostile to the Greeks? 15 A. What do you mean by -- 16 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, vague and 17 ambiguous. 18 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what you 19 mean by "hostile." 20 BY MR. BOWLES: 21 Q. Did you ever try to disrupt any of 22 their activities? 23 A. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 24 Q. So that wasn't very close and 25 personal, was it? 2960 1 A. No. 2 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, argumentative. 3 THE WITNESS: No, it wasn't. 4 BY MR. BOWLES: 5 Q. Now, you were a very good friend of 6 John Carmichael's in the '80s; is that right? 7 A. A very good friend? 8 Q. Yes? 9 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, calls for 10 speculation. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know how John 12 considered me, but I looked up to John, yes. 13 BY MR. BOWLES: 14 Q. Would it be accurate to say that he 15 was a very good friend of yours? 16 A. Well, I have very good friends today, 17 Mr. Bowles, and I did not see John Carmichael at 18 that time in the same sense that I would see some 19 very good friends today. 20 Q. Did you consider him then a very good 21 friend? 22 A. You are mischaracterizing the 23 testimony again, Mr. Bowles. Please stop. He was 24 a friend. He was someone that I looked up to. He 25 is someone that I trusted. He had a great love 2961 1 for books. And that was something that I also 2 enjoyed was reading. And there were things about 3 him that I praised. And yes, he was a friend. 4 Whether he was a very good friend, that's -- I 5 can't -- that would be speculation. 6 Q. So it would be inaccurate to call him 7 a very good friend; is that right? 8 A. I have answered the question, 9 Mr. Bowles. Move on with your questions, please. 10 Q. I would like you to read from the 11 transcript, Page 1150, Line 12 to 1151, Line 7. 12 A. "Q. And who were you 13 having contacts at the Church of 14 Scientology? 15 "A. John Carmichael. 16 "Q. Anyone else? 17 "A. Well, whomever 18 answered the phone down there. 19 The receptionist but mostly John 20 Carmichael, Jim Candon, Kathy 21 Candon, who are now both 22 remarried, divorced, remarried. 23 "Q. Who are Jim and 24 Kathy Condon? 25 "A. Members of the 2962 1 church. 2 "Q. What if anything 3 occurred during these 4 conversations with John 5 Carmichael? 6 "A. You are talking 7 about the phone conversations? 8 "Q. Yes. 9 "A. I was just calling 10 John to say hello and because 11 John was very interested in what 12 I was doing. And at the time he 13 was a very good friend. And he 14 asked me how things were going 15 with me and I asked him how 16 things were going with him. It 17 was very platonic. 18 "I need to take a short 19 break here. A rest room break, 20 please." 21 Q. That's fine. 22 So is that testimony inaccurate when 23 you called him a very good friend? 24 A. That's what I testified to at the 25 time. It would be inaccurate if I testified to 2963 1 it. 2 Q. Are you going to testify the same 3 thing here today? 4 A. What, that he was -- 5 Q. That he was a very good friend. 6 A. At that time I would say I considered 7 him a very good friend because I looked up to him 8 as I have said before. Today given his position 9 in Scientology and what Scientology has done, no. 10 I wouldn't agree with it today. 11 Q. Your testimony today is that he was a 12 very good friend of yours in 1985? 13 A. I am saying back in 1985 that is what 14 I may have felt about him then. 15 Q. So were you close? Did you share 16 personal experiences with him and vice versa? 17 A. I have answered your question, 18 Mr. Bowles. Move on. I am not going to play 19 these games with you. 20 Q. I am going to ask you a new 21 question. 22 A. If it deals with this topic -- 23 Q. Were you close friends and shared 24 personal experiences of your past? 25 A. Yes. 2964 1 Q. What college did Mr. Carmichael go 2 to? 3 A. I don't know. I didn't go to college 4 with Mr. John Carmichael. How would I know that? 5 Q. Did he ever tell you what university 6 he attended? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Was he married? 9 A. No, he was single at the time. 10 Q. He was single in 1985? 11 A. I believe so. I could be wrong, but 12 I believe he was. 13 Q. Did he have children in 1985? 14 A. I don't know. Ask him. You talk 15 with him. You ask him. 16 MR. BOWLES: I am going to have you identify 17 Exhibit-206. 18 (Plaintiff's Exhibit-No. 206 19 was marked for identification and is 20 bound separately.) 21 BY MR. BOWLES: 22 Q. Is that your signature on the second 23 page, Mr. Scarff? It is an affidavit two pages 24 long. 25 A. Yes, Mr. Bowles, thank you so much 2965 1 for introducing this because I never had a copy of 2 this, and I thank God the Court will finally have 3 an opportunity to see this document, Exhibit-206. 4 This is the document that Mr. Fred 5 King forced me to sign under duress in the company 6 of a Guardian's Office member who I only recall at 7 the time as being Chinese. And the witness' name 8 is Robert Shinghita. So he may not have been 9 Chinese, but he definitely was Oriental. 10 And this is one of the phony 11 documents that I was told to sign under duress and 12 Fred King in fact said if I didn't there would be 13 some violence. And Fred King also went to the 14 Positive Action Center, and I am sure the Greeks 15 will be able to attest to this in court, went into 16 the Positive Action Center, played a tape of this, 17 because this was read into a tape recorder, a copy 18 of it -- or a part of it which was played to 19 Adrian and Anne Greek, the rest which was omitted 20 and they left. 21 I am glad you introduced this because 22 this is going to blow up in your face, 23 Mr. Bowles. Thank you for doing it because only 24 you, sir, would have had a copy of this. Thank 25 you so much because this, sir, I am going to make 2966 1 a copy of. I am going to submit with other things 2 that I have provided criminal enforcement agencies 3 who are looking for copies of this and the other 4 declaration. 5 I believe there is another 6 declaration, sir. Is that the one you are going 7 to introduce there as well? Is this the second 8 one? Because I believe there were two of them. 9 This one deals with the Positive 10 Action Center and Way International. There is one 11 that deals with the attorneys in the Julie 12 Christofferson case. Are you planning to 13 introduce that one too, sir? Because I need it. 14 Q. Let's stick to this one, Mr. Scarff. 15 Are the contents of this affidavit 16 true or false? 17 A. You know, Mr. Bowles, you know as 18 well as I do when this was taken, under what 19 conditions this was taken. Your member of the 20 Church of Scientology threatened me, threw me up 21 against the wall and did this under duress with a 22 Guardian's Office member signing it. You know 23 exactly as well as I do that everything in here is 24 false and it is incriminating and you did it 25 simply to incriminate somebody maliciously, 2967 1 unlawfully and without merit. And this, sir, is 2 going to go to the FBI and other criminal 3 enforcement agencies. 4 This is going to come back to 5 haunt -- 6 Q. That's a false affidavit; is that 7 right? 8 A. You know -- 9 Q. Yes or no. 10 A. I don't remember because I didn't 11 have a chance to read this. I was told to sign it 12 or else. There is your document. Hope you're 13 happy with it. 14 Q. Go ahead and read it. Is it true or 15 false? 16 A. I am not going to read it. I am not 17 going to read it, Mr. Bowles, because I remember 18 what happened at the time that I was forced to 19 sign this document. And you know the way that I 20 am feeling now, maybe I should take you into the 21 room next door and do the same thing to you, do to 22 you that your officials did to me at this time. 23 Maybe I should do that to you and see how you 24 feel. 25 Q. Is that a threat? 2968 1 A. You see if you have a smile on your 2 face, Mr. Bowles. 3 Q. Are you threatening me? 4 A. Mr. Bowles, do you want me to take it 5 outside and let me show you? Would you like me to 6 demonstrate or are you going to sit there like a 7 spineless wimp with a finger up your head and just 8 watch? Are you afraid of me? 9 Q. No, I am not. 10 A. Then why don't we go next door and 11 let me exhibit and show you how this was 12 rendered. Why don't I show you how I was forced 13 to sign this document on your behalf evidently 14 because you are the one that provided it into 15 evidence. 16 This is a piece of shit. It is 17 unlawful. It is going to go to the FBI and some 18 other enforcement agencies. And you can sit there 19 and smile with a smirk on your face, but believe 20 me, it is going to drop real soon. And I am not 21 going to talk about it because it is bullshit. 22 Q. So you are going to refuse to tell me 23 whether the contents of that affidavit are true or 24 false? 25 A. Asked and answered. Anything you 2969 1 produce is false. You are a liar. You are a 2 criminal. You need someone -- someone needs to 3 kick the shit out of you, frankly. That is what 4 needs to be done. 5 Q. Is that a threat, Mr. Scarff? 6 A. Are you afraid, Tim? Tim, why don't 7 we go next door and settle this right here and 8 now. Why don't you show me how big and how much a 9 man you are. 10 Q. I respectfully decline, Mr. Scarff. 11 A. That's because you are a wimp. 12 Everybody knows you are a wimp. That's why you 13 run around with other women behind your wife's 14 back. 15 Q. Let's go on, Mr. Scarff. 16 Take a look at more of your -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- background. Pittsburgh 19 conference, 1987. You have given truthful 20 testimony on that here in this deposition, haven't 21 you? 22 A. Yes, I have. 23 Q. Let's take a look at some of that. 24 Page 1190. Start with Line 4 and you can read 25 through Line 10 of 1192. 2970 1 A. 1192 to what line? 2 Q. You want me to repeat it again? 3 A. Yes, that's what I asked. 4 Q. 1190, Line 4 to 1192 and I forgot 5 which line it was. Line 10. 6 A. I would like to see the preface 7 copies of this, please. 1188 to 1190. 8 Q. 1188 and 1189. 9 A. Thank you. 10 Q. Actually you know what, why don't you 11 read on beyond that. Go ahead. You can read the 12 preface pages and then I'm going to have you read 13 further. 1193. 14 A. What line? 15 Q. I think it is -- let me see. 16 Line 2. Line 3, sorry. Line 3. 17 A. "Q. And at the time of 18 the Pittsburgh conference were 19 you wearing a hat in the 20 Scientology sense of the word? 21 "A. Yes. 22 "Q. And what was that 23 hat? 24 "A. My hat was to find 25 and collect data relevant to the 2971 1 Cult Awareness Network and 2 individuals involved in the Cult 3 Awareness Network, and the other 4 hat was to carry out a project 5 which would in the future serve 6 to destroy the credibility of 7 the Cult Awareness Network and 8 Patricia Ryan who was a guest 9 speaker at the conference. 10 "I attended the 11 Pittsburgh conference talking at 12 length about the fact that I had 13 been a former member of the 14 People's Temple and a survivor 15 of Jonestown. I talked quite a 16 bit about my father dying in 17 Jonestown and one of my 18 successes at that conference was 19 to get close to Ford Greene and 20 get close to Patricia Ryan 21 because I had successfully built 22 this image within the Cult 23 Awareness Network that I was a 24 survivor of the Jonestown 25 tragedy as a survivor of the 2972 1 People's Temple which is 2 something that I had initially 3 created on my own -- I have 4 admitted to that -- during the 5 time that I was undergoing some 6 problems. But it was not until 7 I became associated with the 8 Church of Scientology that that 9 entire hoax took on a national 10 flare because I was constantly 11 going to the media with this 12 information. 13 "And on the night of the 14 conference, banquet, Patricia 15 Ryan was slated to speak. They 16 were going to present Patricia 17 Ryan with a Leo J. Ryan award 18 which is an honorary award given 19 to those individuals that have 20 performed some commendable 21 service on behalf of educating 22 people on cults. And 23 considering that this was the 24 first year the award was going 25 to be given out, they thought it 2973 1 was fitting to give it to Leo J. 2 Ryan's daughter, Patricia. 3 "And I had made an 4 agreement with Anne Lundgren, 5 who is one of the coordinators 6 of this banquet, to go up on 7 stage, talk to Patricia Ryan, 8 give a small testimonial and to 9 give Patricia a rose, which I 10 did. 11 "And it was a very 12 emotional thing for Patricia 13 Ryan. I not only talked about 14 my experiences in the People's 15 Temple but I also threw out the 16 tidbit that I had never told 17 anybody else and that was the 18 fact that I had a small child 19 that also died in the People's 20 Temple in Jonestown that was 21 forced to consume cyanide. 22 "And when I left the 23 stage I got a standing ovation. 24 And it was a very emotional 25 thing for Patricia Ryan and all 2974 1 of that was scripted. It was 2 all bullshit. 3 "Q. What do you mean it 4 was scripted and bullshit? 5 "A. Because Gwen 6 Mayfield told me we had 7 discussed some ideas on how we 8 could bring this, bring about 9 something that would embarrass 10 Patricia Ryan and insult the 11 Cult Awareness Network and we 12 discussed some things to do. 13 "And what I finally did, 14 what arose out of these 15 discussions, how can I get up on 16 stage, say something that would 17 be embarrassing to Patricia 18 Ryan. What can I do? And I had 19 not even considered giving 20 anyone a rose. I didn't see any 21 relationship or what the 22 symbolic -- symbolism was in 23 giving them a red rose. But 24 they told me that a red rose 25 means an expression of love for 2975 1 somebody. 2 "Q. Whose idea was a red 3 rose? 4 "A. Gwen Mayfield." 5 Q. That's enough. Thank you. 6 So that was an accurate transcription 7 of your testimony, Mr. Scarff? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. And that's all true? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. So it was Gwen Mayfield's idea for 12 you to mount the stage and give this talk and give 13 a rose? 14 A. It was our discussions to mount the 15 stage. She suggested giving Patricia Ryan a red 16 rose. And I asked her why because I didn't know 17 the significance of giving her a red rose. She 18 said a red rose symbolizes love. 19 Q. So you decided together to mount the 20 stage but it was her idea to give the red rose, is 21 that the idea? 22 A. In our discussions I said that I 23 could probably get up on stage and talk about 24 Patricia Ryan and she said why don't you give her 25 a rose. 2976 1 Mr. Calhoun, do you have a copy of 2 this? Could you make a copy of it for me today, 3 please. 4 I understand, Mr. Calhoun, that in 5 this case of which I am a witness that a discovery 6 process has taken place. This is not the only 7 affidavit Mr. Bowles has in his possession. There 8 is a second affidavit which pertains to attorneys 9 that they sought to incriminate. And I would 10 suggest that Mr. Bowles has breached the discovery 11 process by not introducing the second affidavit on 12 record. And I would ask that Mr. Bowles be 13 required to present that second affidavit. If he 14 does not do so that certain sanctions be taken 15 against him. 16 Q. Okay, Mr. Scarff, let's get back to 17 the point. 18 A. It is the point. 19 Q. Why don't you take Exhibit-3 and go 20 to Page 228. 21 A. It is the point of which you will 22 soon discover, Mr. Bowles. You cannot hide and 23 lie to the court as you have judiciously done in 24 the past and it will catch up with you, sir. As 25 you will find out. 2977 1 Q. Strike as nonresponsive. 2 A. To you but it is true. It is very 3 responsive. 4 Q. Page 228, start reading at Line 17 5 and you can go to the next page and read to Line 3 6 of the next page. 229. 7 A. 229, Line 3. 8 Q. This is your sworn statement to 9 Mr. Leipold on 11, September 1992. 10 A. "A. No. 11, it talks 11 about my being at the Pittsburgh 12 conference where I got up on 13 stage in front of a Patricia 14 Ryan and gave her flowers and 15 talked about my story of 16 Jonestown. That's true. 17 "What is not true is of 18 the added sentence 'These 19 stories brought Ryan and many of 20 the others to tears.' That part 21 is not true. I did receive a 22 standing ovation from the 23 audience however. 24 "Q. Let me ask you 25 this. Did somebody encourage 2978 1 you to get up on the stage and 2 give her flowers? 3 "A. No. 4 "Q. Was that your idea? 5 "A. That was my idea." 6 Q. That's enough. 7 So which is true, was it your idea or 8 Gwen Mayfield's idea? 9 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, vague and 10 ambiguous. Misstates the testimony. 11 THE WITNESS: Gwen Mayfield, as I have said 12 on record already, Mr. Bowles, and I am not going 13 to play this black or white, true or false game 14 with you, because it can't be answered in that 15 fashion, is she gave me the idea to do it and I 16 did it and I stand by my record on that. 17 BY MR. BOWLES: 18 Q. So it is false testimony to say it 19 was your idea; is that right? 20 MR. CALHOUN: Misstates the documents. 21 THE WITNESS: Asked and answered, Counselor 22 BY MR. BOWLES: 23 Q. You are going to refuse to answer 24 that question? 25 A. No, I have answered it. I have 2979 1 answered it and you refuse to listen. It is asked 2 and answered. She gave me the idea and I pursued 3 and did it. 4 Q. So the question that was asked "Was 5 that your idea" and the answer "That was my idea," 6 is that false? 7 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 8 record. 9 THE WITNESS: As I have said before, 10 Mr. Bowles, Gwen Mayfield gave me the idea and I 11 did it. 12 BY MR. BOWLES: 13 Q. The question to you -- 14 A. I answered your question. 15 Q. Line 2. 16 "Q. Was that your idea? 17 "A." -- Line 3 -- "That 18 was my idea." 19 Is that false testimony? 20 A. Asked and answered. 21 MR. CALHOUN: Objection, misstates the 22 testimony 23 BY MR. BOWLES: 24 Q. You are going to refuse to answer 25 that question? 2980 1 A. Asked and answered. 2 Q. How about this crying thing where you 3 say here on the prior page "what is not true is 4 this added sentence. 'These stories brought Ryan 5 and many of the others to tears.' That part is 6 not true." Page 228. 7 Page 228 and it is Line 20 to 22. 8 A. In the context of the entire 9 sentence, this is not true. I observed Patricia 10 Ryan with tears in her eyes. She was overwhelmed 11 by it. But as far as many of the others to tears, 12 I didn't see anybody else in the audience crying, 13 Mr. Bowles. 14 Now, if you want to do as you have 15 done already in this deposition is tear the 16 sentence apart and take it out of context, so be 17 it. We know what you are up to here and you are 18 not fooling anybody but yourself. So go for it. 19 As far as Ryan going to tears, yes, 20 she was brought to tears. As far as many of the 21 others to tears, I didn't see it. So the entire 22 sentence being that half of it is true and half of 23 it is not, I would simply say that part of it is 24 not true. That's why I said it. Characterize it 25 as you wish. 2981 1 Q. So you said "What is not true is this 2 added sentence, 'These stories brought Ryan and 3 many of the others to tears.' That part is not 4 true." 5 A. Do you have ears? 6 Q. What you are saying now is only part 7 of that sentence is not true? 8 A. Asked and answered, Counselor. I am 9 not going to play Romper Room with you again. 10 Asked and answered. 11 Q. You are going to refuse to answer 12 that question? 13 A. I answered it. You just don't want 14 to listen. Asked and answered. Get your hand out 15 of your ear and listen. 16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Scarff, you have been 17 very helpful today it is 5:00 o'clock. 18 THE WITNESS: You have been very helpful 19 today to, Mr. Bowles, particularly with 20 Exhibit-206. Thank you so much. I am waiting for 21 the next exhibit as well when you are ready to 22 introduce that. I am referring to the second 23 affidavit in which you sought to incriminate Don 24 Powers and the other Christofferson attorneys. 25 I will also be contacting those 2982 1 specific attorneys and letting them know that you 2 have failed to produce that affidavit in this 3 deposition and see if they wish to take further 4 action as well. 5 MR. BOWLES: I am sure they will be excited 6 to hear from you, Mr. Scarff, about the 7 affidavit. 8 VIDEO OPERATOR: Off the record. The date 9 is August 17, 1993. The time is 5:01 P.M. End of 10 Tape 3, Volume VX in the continuing deposition of 11 Mr. Scarff. 12 (TIME NOTED: 5:01 P.M.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2983 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss: 2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 3 4 I, PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499, do 5 hereby certify: 6 That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L. 7 SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place 8 therein set forth, at which time the witness was 9 put on oath by me; 10 That the testimony of the witness and all 11 objections made at the time of the examination 12 were recorded stenographically by me, were 13 thereafter transcribed under my direction and 14 supervision and that the foregoing is a true 15 record of same. 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel 17 for nor related to any party to said action, nor 18 in anywise interested in the outcome thereof. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name 20 this 17th day of August, 1993. 21 22 23 24 ____________________________________ 25 PAULETTE M. GRIFFIN, C.S.R. No. 2499 2984 1 STATE OF CALIFORNIA ) ss: 2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES ) 3 4 I, LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222, do hereby 5 certify: 6 That the foregoing deposition of GARRY L. 7 SCARFF was taken before me at the time and place 8 therein set forth, at which time the witness was 9 put on oath by me; 10 That the testimony of the witness and all 11 objections made at the time of the examination 12 were recorded stenographically by me, were 13 thereafter transcribed under my direction and 14 supervision and that the foregoing is a true 15 record of same. 16 I further certify that I am neither counsel 17 for nor related to any party to said action, nor 18 in anywise interested in the outcome thereof. 19 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have subscribed my name 20 this 17th day of August, 1993. 21 22 23 24 ____________________________________ 25 LEE BRENNEMAN, C.S.R. No. 5222 2985 1 I N D E X 2 VOLUME XVI 3 4 TUESDAY, AUGUST 17, 1993 5 6 WITNESS EXAMINATION 7 8 GARRY L. SCARFF 9 10 (By Mr. Bowles) 2779 11 (By Mr. Bowles) 2874 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2986 1 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 2 GARRY L. SCARFF 3 4 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 5 199 Two-page letter to Letters 2875 6 to the Editor Willamette 7 Week from Garry L. Scarff. 8 9 200 Four-page letter to John 2903 10 Biermans from Garry L. 11 Scarff, dated December 6, 12 1985. 13 14 201 Two-page letter to 2908 15 Dr. George Robertson from 16 Garry Scarff, dated 17 10-21-89. 18 19 202 Three-page letter to 2910 20 Dr. George Robertson from 21 Garry L. Scarff, dated 22 May 27, 1989. 23 24 25 2987 1 DEPOSITION EXHIBITS 2 GARRY L. SCARFF 3 4 NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED 5 203 Two-page letter to 2911 6 Dr. George Robertson 7 from Garry Scarff, dated 8 July 1, 1989. 9 10 204 One-page letter to Daniel 2950 11 Leipold from Garry Scarff, 12 dated April 26, 1993. 13 14 205 Multi-page document 2950 15 entitled "Interview of 16 Garry L. Scarff, Thursday, 17 May 6, 1993." 18 19 206 Two-page affidavit of 2964 20 Garry Lynn Scarff, dated 21 August 19, 1981. 22 23 24 25 ================================================================= If this is a copyrighted work, you are acknowledging by receipt of this document from FACTNet that on the basis of reasonable investigation, you have not been to obtain a copy elsewhere at a fair price, and that you are and will abide by the following copyright warning. WARNING CONCERNING COPYRIGHT RESTRICTIONS: The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photo copies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified by law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be "used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research." 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