All of them, those in power, and those who want the power, would pamper us, if we agreed to overlook their crookedness by wilfully restricting our activities.
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and Mark Bunker
interview with Glosslip
20 April 2008 ver 1.0
Audio available from: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stations/bc/glosslip
Transcript produced by: SamuelAdams, Kaminonymous,
its.an0nym0us, Eff and an0n1nNZ.
DO: Good evening Glosslip Radio Listeners. I am Dawn Olsen of Glosslip.com. I am very excited to be here this evening. I have two just awesome guests and I couldnít be more thrilled about how lucky I am to get to talk to these two gentlemen, to bring them on the air and discuss some very import issues going on right now and I am sure our listeners, there are a lot of people in the chat room are also interested. Please be aware that I am going to try to avoid taking the unusual on-line calls if I can. There are going to be a few people I know in advance I am going to take, but we've had some weird people call in the past so I'm going to try to avoid that. But I will be monitoring the chat room so if you have any questions or comments, please post them in the chat room. Tonight we're going to have Mark Bunker of Xenutv.com, a little bit later in the show.
DO: Our first guest is a very, very interesting person to talk to. His name is Jeff Hawkins. Jeff is a thirty-five year veteran of the Church of Scientology. He did a lot of marketing and promotional work within the graphic design and now has his own website JeffersonHawkins.com. I do encourage you to go check him out if you have any graphics design work that you need done, I'm sure he won't mind if we do plug him. He didn't ask. I did that on my own. Jeff has some very interesting experiences. The first time I heard Jeff was on lermanet.com. There was a radio show that he'd done there which was riveting, itís not often I have the time to really listen to stuff because I'm just so busy, but I did listen to the whole show and Jeff described some of his experiences working with David Miscavige. Anyone who reads glosslip.com knows how I feel about David Miscavige on a personal level.
DO: So, obviously, this is a very interesting person for me to talk to as I'd like to glean as much information as I can about individual who is essentially in charge of the church of Scientology. So without further ado, Jeff, welcome to the show. Thank you for coming on.
JH: Well, thanks for having me, Dawn.
DO: So, how long have you been out of the Church of Scientology?
JH: Three years, in fact my three year anniversary was just last week.
DO: Wow, congratulations! Happy Anniversary!
JH: [chuckles] Thank you. I just want to make it clear; I'm not a Scientologist anymore, I have nothing to do with the church.
DO: Well, I assumed that. Usually I've only brought on ex-scientologists, I'm open to bringing on current Scientologist but they don't seem to want to come on my show. I wonder why that is.
JH: I don't think they will.
DO: No, I doubt they will. So what exactly did you do, where were you posted within the church of Scientology? Thirty-five years. Youíre definitely, of all the people I've had on this show, and I've had a number of ex-scientologists, you've been there the longest. So tell us how you got your start and we'll move on from there and talk about our buddy the asthmatic dwarf.
JH: I was involved in the church for thirty-five years. I got involved when I was in my early twenties. In those days, it was a very exciting thing to be a part of. I see what is happening with Anonymous these days, and that kind of excitement surrounded Scientology in the late 60's, it was kind of the big counter-culture thing to be a part of, interestingly enough.
JH: So I got involved with it and I was excited about it because it was like, ďOh, we're going to change the world. We're going to get rid of war, and get rid of crime and all this other stuffĒ. As the years went by, I began to see more and more of the dark side of Scientology. Things that I didn't agree with and things I thought were wrong, and I ended up leaving after thirty-five years. I was mostly involved with the publication end of things. For many years I worked for the publications organizations that put out Hubbard's books, and then with the marketing angle. The marketing bureau of the church. I really thinks it's the only church that I know of that has a marketing bureau.
DO: That is one of the interesting aspects of it, you are right.
JH: It is. It is. And it kind of indicates where the organization is at.
JH: They have tried over the various years to rename it and call it the planetary dissemination bureau and these sorts of acronyms, but really always it's been about marketing. They had us read marketing textbooks and all sorts of things, then we could market the church. I did that for many years, I did a whole campaign with Dianetics in the 1980's. Questions would come on the black screen and so forth and then the volcano would explode. That was the campaign that I did in those days in the 80's, and it sold a lot of books. Then I went to the International Base in San Jacinto and I worked there in the marketing area there for fifteen years, the last fifteen years that I was a part of the group I was involved with marketing, writing, that sort of thing.
DO: So, you thought it was a pretty exciting thing and that's how a lot of people described it. One thing I want to point out is that itís really interesting to me that all of the ex-scientologists that I've talked are the most compelling, intelligent, interesting and really scholarly people. It's interesting to me that they do seem to have the ability recruit the brightest, creative and ambitious people, and of course they destroy them over time. But I think it's interesting that you were brought in because you wanted to change the world, you had ideology that seemed to match the church's beliefs at the time and surely things have changed over the years you have been there a long time.
DO: What was the first thing you saw that really made you go ďHmm, I 'm not sure this is really it seems to beĒ, when the veneer was starting to crack for you. When was that moment?
JH: I had always seen that there were individuals and certain organization practices that I thought were not correct. But when I was a true believer, I always put those down to you know the imperfection of people and that the sort of the good would win out over time and the bad people and bad influences would disappear and the organization would become better over time. It really began to crack for me when I was at the International Base and I got exposed to David Miscavige over a long period of time. Working with him, having meetings with him, I realized that the sort of dark aspect of Scientology was not going to go away, in fact it was going to take over the organization. And had taken over the organization.
JH: At that point I said, ďI just don't want any part of this anymoreĒ. Because, as you go along as a Scientologist, you can always think ďOh, things are going to get better, the abuses will handled, the abuses become less over timeĒ and that's how you give yourself hope. But it doesn't happen, things have just gotten worse and worse over the period that I was involved in Scientology.
DO: So, you spent some time with David Miscavige. I think a lot of people, especially those who are not Scientologists, outsiders so to speak and especially members of Anonymous, have this perception of what he is like. Can you give us in your words the best description of what it is like working for David, what kind of manager he is, and what kind of human being you think is underneath the exterior that he portrays?
DO: We don't see him very often, other than goofy propaganda videos and dancing on the Freewinds with Tom Cruise. So I'd like to really glean that from you, as best you can.
JH: Okay. I can't really give you a two-dimensional portrait because he is a complex character. On the one hand, he is very charismatic and has a very dynamic personality. In other words, if he comes into a room he pretty much takes over the room and all attention goes to him, simply because he has that sort of force of character about him and that intensity.
JH: Heís a very, very intense individual, and once you work with him, in terms of management he is a micro-manager. He wants to make every single decision that is made and has no trust of people. He has no trust of otherís decision-making abilities or ability to do anything. He considers that he can make the best decision or do the best thing in any situation. So working with him is, you have to get used to having anything that you do be completely trashed. For him to tell you what is wrong with your work and what is wrong with you in very graphic and often obscene terms. He doesnít mince words. He will quite often say in meetings that he was the only one doing anything, that everyone else is incompetent, that everyone else is, as he says suppressive, that heís dealing with a bunch of suppressive peopleÖ
JH: Ö that he has to do everything, he has to make every decision, he has to write every bit of every speech, that he has to micromanage every event and so forth. This is his constant song and constant complaint. ďI have to do everything, I have to do everything, I have to do everythingĒ, and he will not let people do their jobs. He absolutely will not. He will find any excuse to get them de-powered, taken off their jobs. Anything that they try to do is completely trashed by him and replaced with his own, what heís done or his own decisions or his own programs or whatever. From that point of view heís a very, very difficult man to work for just because he is so narcissistic.
JH: He just believes he is the only person who can make any sort of decision, then you add to that he is a very abusive person, he uses a lot of profanity, constant threats, when heís dealing with executives or staff. He deals in a level of constant threats, and of course he has things he can threaten people with, that he can threaten to send them to the RPF, or to offload them from the International Base or to offload them from Scientology or to declare them suppressive. And these sorts of threats are just common coin with him, he constantly says these things. Then you add to that the occasional physical violence where he will physically attack an executive or a staff member, and you have a pretty bleak picture, heís a man who does not brook any opposition, he does not brook anyone questioning him, he does not brook any decisions or anything like that.
JH: If you do that you are toast, you end up on RPF, you end up doing manual labor or doing something like that. If anyone would dare to oppose him, which no one does, no one does, because if they were to oppose him they would be gone, like me.
DO: I do have a couple of specific questions, then Iím going to get to the aspects of the physical abuse because I think that really is telling. Heís a really small man and so it seems like he feels the need to intimidate people, heís probably got that whole short man syndrome, alpha male thing where, ďIím like a little bitty dog that barks and growls all the time to make up for sizeĒ and thatís how I picture him and Iíve obviously portrayed that.
DO: So now, heís aggressive, has alpha-male need, heís paranoid, heís narcissistic, so he thinks very highly of himself, he thinks heís the only person who can fix anything and ďIím surrounded by idiots, oh god, why, why must I be surrounded by idiotsĒ, so therefore heís lashing out at people all the time. It sounds as if heís deeply insecure, I think that he would be a psychiatristís wet dream to try to tap into his psychoses. But what OT level is he? Do you have any idea?
JH: I donít know, and that sort of information is not that well known. I know he has at least seen the OT 8 materials because heís dealt with those. And I can only assume that he has also seen the so-called OT levels beyond that. He has access to any technology that he wants to access. I know that heís at least OT 7, you know, and heís possibly done OT 8.
JH: Who knows, because his auditing is not a matter of public record.
DO: Right, I figured that it would be kind of unusual for you to know that. Someone in the chatroom wanted to know, once you are clear youíre not supposed to get sick anymore. Did you ever witness him being, calling off sick? Itís kind of a bizarre question, but a funny one.
JH: I donít recall him being sick, I know that heís asthmatic, but I never observed him being sick or not showing up to a meeting because he was sick or something like that. I donít think that ever stopped him.
DO: Iíd say heís as Clear as an f----ng bell, then, Ďcause, you know, other than that asthma, which according to him, because Iíve read his bio, thatís how his father got into Scientology, because it cleared him of his asthma. But smoking five packs a day does not help that, his asthma.
DO: Something that people in the chatroom want to know is, what did you witness in terms of physical abuse against your person and against others. I think this is the kind of thing that is very telling, itís compelling to know. Itís not often in a corporation as large as Church of Scientology that you hear stories about executives beating the hell out of people or slapping them. You canít physically assault any adult in that sort of setting without being slapped with major lawsuits. Itís interesting and I think we want to hear about that. And what was your reaction, why didnít you slap the crap out of him? So these are some questions people want to know and Iíll just let you go for it.
JH: Okay, well Iíve had that question from a lot of people whoíve heard my stories, ďWhy didnít you just hit him back?Ē You have to understand the degree of mind control that exists in that environment.
JH: You believe, if you are a Scientologist, that the only way to your spiritual salvation is to go up the bridge and get your OT levels and become an immortal, spiritual being who lives life after life, which is what they believe, and you believe if you mess up and if you get declared a suppressive you will be forever enslaved in a body on the planet. These are the sorts of things they believe, so ultimately you have that being held over the heads of anyone who is there. Secondly, for instance in my case I was married, my wife was there, and Iíd been in thirty-five years so all my close friends were there at the Base. And that was my job, that was my home, that was everything to me.
JH: So, yes, you could go against David Miscavige and hit him back, but that moment you would be saying goodbye to your wife, all your friends, any family you have, your job, the place where you lived all your life, everything. You would be turning your back on that and saying ďIím gone, Iím outta hereĒ. And youíd have to be willing to make that decision to front up to him, otherwise youíre not, because heís surrounded by people who are going to defend him and he never physically attacks someone unless there are ten, twenty or forty other people in the room. Any of which to carry favor with him would jump on any attacker. So youíre not going to get very far. And one time he told me, actually he told another person in the room. He loves to talk about people as if theyíre not there.
JH: But he said about me, ďLook at how he looks at me, heíd just love to wear one on me, heíd just love to wear one on me. And I hope he does because then I could really unload on himĒ.
DO: Thatís so sick to me, you seem like a gentle, laid-back fellow and everything Iíve heard about you from well respected people is what a wonderfully nice, confident, thoughtful guy you are. Why would someone hold such hostility towards a person for no reason? I donít understand? He must be a very angry little man.
JH: He is, he is, and he holds that hostility for pretty much everybody. I donít know that there is anybody that escapes that. There are people that become his favorites for a time, until he turns on them. And then when he turns on them they find out what everybody else has been experiencing. And then so forth. But he knows he can get away with it and he knows that nobody is even going to report him.
JH: I wouldnít have reported him at the time and I didnít report him at the time because heís the head of my church, he holds my entire life in his hands, and with a flick of the wrists he can destroy anything, which he did, eventually, and thatís when I finally left. I said, "You've destroyed anything that I had here. Iím out of here, Iím gone."
DO: Did you have family still in the org?
JH: I did. My wife was there, at the Int. Base. Weíd been married about five years, and I never heard from her again. I received signed divorce papers that were delivered to me by the security guards while I was still being imprisoned out there. I had to sign those and return them, and that was the only contact Iíve had with my wife since then.
DO: So, you were in the RPF?
JH: No, I never went to the RPF. I was in an area out in San Jacinto. The San Jacinto compound is about 200 acres, I think, surrounded by razor wires and motion sensors. Itís a sort of camp there, a detention camp, but there's a section of the compound that is separated even from the rest of the base by razor wire fences and security guards. That's where they keep the people who are bad people, who are being offloaded from the Sea Organization or declared suppressive. They are first isolated out there in this section of the compound, and I was out there under guard for about three months before I left.
DO: To me that's false imprisonment, wouldn't you say?
JH: Well, yes! Absolutely, absolutely.
DO: How do they get away with this crap? Look at whatís going on, Iím sure you've seen in the news with the...
JH: The cult...
DO: Yeah, the Mormon cult down in Texas. It's almost as if scientology is given a free pass. I don't know if itís because Tom Cruise is the face of it, but I don't understand how they can get away with this. If you wanted to take legal action, what do you think would happen?
JH: Well, that's kind of playing in their ballpark, because they have the best lawyers that money can buy. They have a legal team that is second to none. They're very, very familiar with working in the courtroom and pushing it as far as they can push it, and then doing an out of court settlement when they can't win it, and so forth.
JH: They use the legal arena to intimidate people. One of the reasons that you donít see more people speaking up is simply because of that intimidation factor, that people know they are going to get litigation thrown at them. Hubbard even said in his writings that the purpose isn't even to win the litigation, itís just to shut people up. So, that's what they do. They use any trick that they can to keep people quiet. And they use any trick they can to shut up people who've been there, like myself, who've actually witnessed it. They will go to any means to discredit such people. They'll say "Oh, they're apostate former members. Oh, they're bitter. Theyíre in the minority". No, we're not in the minority, we're the majority, [chuckles] and they can't shut all of us up.
JH: Particularly nowadays, they can't shut all of us up, and I think they're starting to realize that.
JH: That there's more coming out than they can possibly handle with their usual tactics which they've done in the past.
DO: Someone asked a question thatís a pretty good one. Iím sure you've answered it by way of how they destroy people legally. If you call the police in there for some sort of, not domestic abuse, for a physical assault charge, how do you think the church would handle that? Youíd have to prove it, I guess?
JH: Youíd have to prove it, and it'd be a ďHe said, they saidĒ situation, and they would bring forward ten or twenty, thirty witnesses that it didn't happen.
DO: Like you said, he doesn't do it when there are not enough people around to back him up.
JH: Thatís right. And if it comes down to swearing before the police or talking to the press, anybody who's inside is going to defend him because of the way it is.
DO: Yes, that is the way it is. Anonymous, Iím sure you're well aware of who they are, they are any of us. The more I think about it, the more itís a moving target as to what Anonymous is. What would your advice be at this point, if they continue to wage this global protest against the Church of Scientology, and do you think it'll work? From somebody who's been inside the Org and knows they [Scientology] have been through various levels of protest, this is the largest and most global. What are your feelings about Anonymous, and what do you think that they should continue to do?
JH: I think that they should definitely carry on. Anonymous has been such a catalyst to people like myself and others who are now speaking out simply because the Church cannot go after everybody.
JH: Theyíre used to a few people having the guts to speak out. In the days when it was just Arnie Lerma and a few critics who had the guts and the courage, because everyone else was shutting up, they could easily go after those few people in the legal arena and shut them up. But now, with Anonymous, particularly in spreading information about the church broadly on the internet, which I think is wonderful, and taking information from former members like me and making it widely known, which is great, itís something that the church can't stop, and I think that's wonderful. They can no longer intimidate people into silence, which has been their tactic. Itís been their only tactic. So, I think itís just terrifically, terrifically valuable, the work that they are doing.
JH: Iíve talked to some of these guys at the protests here, and they are very intelligent, and they have a very good grasp of what they're up against in general. I would say just carry on, because the church has no defense against what they're doing. Number one, the church has no defense against viral communication on the internet, they're used to dealing with one individual that they can attack and discredit. With it being Anonymous, they have no individual to attack and discredit, so they're powerless. Secondly, and Iíve made this point on some of the forums, they have no defense against humor, because the Church of Scientology has no sense of humor.
DO: They have ZERO sense of humor, Iíve noticed. Which is funny, because Anonymous is all about having a sense of humor. Itís sort of like the most evil thing they can do to them is to inflict humor on them. [Both laugh] I love that aspect of it, itís really pretty great.
JH: It is, it is great. I can tell you that David Miscavige has no sense of humor whatsoever. None. I think he had it surgically removed. Itís impossible for them to deal with humor, because they donít understand it. They don't understand humor, and they can't respond to it. For instance, you had something like South Park putting the OT III materials out broadly in a humorous vein, there was nothing they could do. All they can do is respond as they always
DO: With serious litigation and lawsuits and so forth. God forbid that they should come back with humor. They never would, they can't, because they are incapable of it.
DO: Itís really funny. This is sort of unrelated, but itís the aspect of the sense of humor. George Clooney took a little jab at Tom Cruise when he said that ďIf you'd just make fun of yourself then you've de-weaponized the criticsĒ. But Tom, he's a scientologist.
DO: He does not laugh at himself, other than that maniacal scary laugh. [JH laughs] Chuck Beatty has a question for you and itís a good one. He wants to know if thereís any point in time when there will be an international amnesty from the Church of Scientology, where they'll be forced to declare everybody not an SP, everybody's allowed to talk to anybody, and that might be their saving grace, or do think they're just a hopeless case?
JH: I don't think that they're ever going to do that. Possibly Iím very cynical about the church because Iíve been in many meetings. The only reason that they would issue an amnesty, and Iím being very cynical here, is if they were running out of people to get money from for services and they wanted to widen the number of people and so they issued an amnesty to get them all in and get more money from them. The church is all about money
JH: Itís all about money. If you look at the decisions that they make and the things that they do, I didn't fully understand this until I was out, the actions that they take are completely motivated by money, by making more money, amassing wealth and that sort of thing. Itís kind of sick, but thatís what it is. So no, I don't think they're going to issue an amnesty out of the goodness of their hearts because I don't think they have any goodness in their hearts; in particular, Miscavige I know does not have any goodness in his heart. I spent years trying to get on his good side, and then I realized he didn't have one.
DO: You're trying to get on ó you keep going around him in a circle but you can't find that good side; it's just not there.
JH: Yeah, yeah, and then I realized it was not there. He doesn't have a good side. And I don't think the church under him has a good side. So no, I don't think they're going to do anything of a compassionate nature to simply right wrongs that were done in the past.
JH: They are organizationally incapable of righting their own wrongs and correcting their own abuse or crimes.
DO: Okay, so here's a question for you, and I'm very curious. Let's say Anonymous is successful and they continue to hammer away at the bricks of Scientology ó and I sure hope they do, I sure hope they don't get disillusioned by how long it might take to do because it takes a long time to really dismantle something sort of widespread and indoctrinated as a church and a cult mindset. But let's say the walls start to crumble because we've seen it with the Catholic Church! There's a huge establishment; it's been around for thousands of years, or at least a thousand years anyway, and they've certainly had their fair share of negative things in their history.
DO: Yet, they've managed to look within themselves and go, "Gee, you know, we're really not going to grow, we're not going to help people spiritually unless we admit our wrongdoing." I don't see Scientology getting to that point. I think they realize that they're not really a religion at their core. I think they know that if they were to open themselves up to criticism, people would see through what's going on. So my question to you is, when the walls crumble, as I feel they will, what do you think people like David Miscavige are going to ... will we ever see him behind bars, will he ever stand trial for his crimes? Or is he going to somehow just flee and be on the run like L. Ron was for years until he dies a lonely old death of cancer, which every day I pray happens to him. I really, I hate to say that because that's mean, but I feel it's like Castro. If he falls, will Scientology fall and can it then just reform the tech so people who do believe in it can have something to look forward to? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go on so long. Go ahead, you go.
JH: Well, I think that in terms of the collapse of the Church of Scientology, I think we're already seeing that. Most Scientology organizations are empty and there is very little growth. I know the internal statistics of the Church because I was very much involved with tracking things like members and so forth, and I know that the Church has been declining since 1991, rather steeply. They don't tell you this, but they are. I think they're on their last legs, financially. They're not getting new members, and a lot of the members that exist are getting tired of the constant demand to them for money and so forth. So I think we are seeing the collapse.
JH: On the other hand, there is the rise of what's known as the Freezone, which is people applying what they agree with of the technology privately, with no connection to the Church. And I think if people want to do that, great! Go ahead and do it! If you want to take what is beneficial and discard what's abusive, go ahead and keep practicing, I'd say more power to you. And I think we're going to see more of that and that when the central corporate Scientology eventually does collapse, you're going to see it collapse into private groups like that, of people that are just pursuing the technology that they find that works.
DO: Now, in your opinion, what do you think the time frame for when we're going to see something dramatically happen? We've seen a lot happen in the last three months, since the first Scientology video with Tom Cruise and Anonymous declaring war. What will be the sign that we'll know something dramatically is happening within the Church itself?
JH: It's hard to say from one point of view because they will keep a facade up for as long as they can, which I think is what we're seeing now. I think that internally they are crumbling, and have been crumbling for some time. But they can keep up a nice facade for ó maybe even for years ó of just "Everything is wonderful, everything is great, everything is going along fine." And I think that you're going to see more and more outer organizations closing, as we have started to see.
JH: Many cities where there were two or three organizations are down to one. And some are disappearing; I think Dusseldorf organization disappeared. So you're going to start to see organizations disappearing, you're going to see empty organizations. And eventually, I think you're going to see Scientology sort of drawing into its major centers and trying to carry on from there, probably in Clearwater, being the major center. I think you'll see them drawing more and more into Clearwater and trying to carry on from a central location.
DO: That's very astute. So really, what will happen is that, as the money dries up, the people sort of dissipate and just try to hold it together with their hardcore followers by centralizing in Clearwater.
DO: I grew up in parts of Fort Lauderdale and I have family there and I've been told by several people there that Clearwater really is just a Scientology town. I'm sure there's people who aren't Scientologists, but they run the joint.
JH: Mhmm, definitely.
DO: That's disturbing. But I guess, you know, there's Vatican City. I mean, that's their Mecca I suppose.
JH: Yeah, yeah. My brother lived there until last week, actually. They just moved. He was a Scientologist. He quit Scientology. Actually, he quit when they asked him to disconnect from me and he told them, "You picked on the wrong family", and said, "I am no longer a Scientologist". And he quit the Church, which I thought was a very brave thing for him to do.
DO: That's tremendously brave! You don't hear that very often, you hear the opposite. You hear people getting disconnected, which is the most heartbreaking aspect of it all. I mean I know, beating on senior Org members, hitting people, and putting them in the Gulag is cruel.
DO: But I can't imagine being separated from my loved ones because of my faith. To me, that's not a faith. That's an ideology which has long since last its luster in modern society. Sure, maybe 150,000 years ago, you could see people being so narrow-minded where they could get away with that. But we're supposed to be an enlightened society and that doesn't seem very enlightened to me.
JH: That's right. Well, it's one of the earmarks of a cult.
JH: You don't often find major religions requiring people to isolate themselves from family or friends. But every cult does that to one degree or another. And that's one of the things, to me, that really brands Scientology as a cult.
DO: Well, it's definitely a cult. And, boy, do they not like it when you call them a cult.
JH: Oh, they hate it. They hate it. Hubbard hated it.
DO: Hubbard hated it?
JH: Oh yeah.
DO: Can you tell me the one thing that I could say personally about David Miscavige, and not be sued or killed, that would really irritate him? Like, what's an insult I could get away with? Because I really like to irritate him. Even if he doesn't see it, it makes me feel better.
JH: [laughs] Um...
DO: You can think about that and let me know.
JH: Anything negative irritates him. I know he hates it if people talk in the media about him beating people up, which of course I will do that because he did beat me up. So I will talk about that. That irritates him because it reveals the real him to people, and he's all about facade. He is all about facade. So I would say anything that reveals the true nature of the man, publicly, that is going to upset him the most because he's all about his image.
DO: Well, that's interesting. You know what we may have to do, Jeff, is you and I may have to do a transcript interview where I can write about that.
DO: I enjoy immensely... I lay awake at night and wonder, "When's he gonna come and get me?" But on the other hand, I am also driven by an internal desire to torment him any way I can. So itís good to know what his triggers are. Itís a sick thing that I have. Like I said, I need to get a life, Iím afraid.
JH: Well, revenge is never a very pretty emotion, and I have thought about that. Do I want to get back at Miscavige? I thought about that for a long time and then I thought ďThe worst thing that I could do to him is to condemn him to being David Miscavige for the rest of his life, and I think thatís punishment enough.Ē
DO: Yeah. I would be willing to bet heís not a very happy man.
JH: I donít think he is. I donít think he is at all.
DO: And heís married, do we know why he has never had kids?
JH: Youíre not allowed to in the Sea Org.
DO: Really? What happens when you accidentally get pregnant? It happens to lots of people. It happens to celebrities all the time, apparently.
JH: Well, celebrities are different from public scientologists. Itís different. Thereís no restriction on that. But if youíre in the Sea Org, if youíre a woman and you get pregnant, you either have to get an abortion or you are off-loaded from the Sea Organization.
DO: Have you witnessed, or seen first-hand, somebody who has been forced to have an abortion?
JH: Many times. Itís not talked about, but I know several women who had to have abortions because they got pregnant. And they were given a lot of grief about it. ďHow could you dare get pregnant?Ē and so forth and so on. There are many, many abortions, and I think that a survey of clinics near the Int Base would be very revealing.
DO: I actually saw something about that. Thatís something Iíve been thinking about writing about because forced abortions is really barbaric and sick.
Whatís odd is that I just read L. Ron Hubbardís policy itself about how abortion is an Ďout-ethicí. Thatís not something that they condone. Theyíre not open to it. Iím not encouraging it. Iím just saying I donít think you should be forcing it on anybody. You certainly shouldnít be prohibiting it. Itís interesting to me that they, on one hand, encourage it as it suits their needs, and on the other hand they condemn it as policy. Thatís very telling.
JH: Thatís right. Thatís right. Well, the church is all about hypocrisy.
DO: I think we have Mr. Bunker on here. You were really great. Iím so glad I got to talk to you. Chuck Beatty set that up, and another anon person dr3k, helped me get you. Iím really glad you came on. And youíll stay with us through Markís interview?
JH: Sure, I would love to hear what Mark has to say.
DO: Thatís great. Mark? Is that you?
MB: It is me!
DO: Oh excellent! We have Wise Beard Man. This is totally off-topic, but my son, heís four, often refers to you as ĎWise Beer Maní. So Iím not sure what that means, but maybe Budweiser needs to use you as their new spokesperson.
MB: I am available for ads. I will, of course, push their stuff even though I donít drink beer.
DO: Thatís okay. There is nothing wrong with hocking stuff and making some money.
MB: No, no, I wonít sell myself.
DO: You know, everyone needs to sell out and I wanted to tell you that last night. If you get phone calls about appearing on the David Letterman show or whatever, I encourage you to sell out as quickly as possible because that is just that much faster you can bring this particular subject to the mainstream media. I encourage it.
MB: Appearing with Dave would not be a sellout. Iím a huge fan of Dave.
DO: Well, then we may have to work on getting you on the David Letterman show. I think youíd be a great guest. Youíd be very compelling and an interesting figure. So why donít youÖ
MB: Heís my TV pal!
DO: He is your TV pal, thatís right! Hopefully everyone can hear us in the chatroom. Iím having trouble hearing you guys, I donít know if itís just my headphones. Why donít you bring us up to speed as to where we are at right now. I know people are very eagerly waiting to hear the rest of Jason Begheís video. Iíll recap briefly: He contacted Andreas from Operation Clambake, is that correct?
MB: Right. He reached out to Andreas after Jason left Scientology and a lot of people apparently do that. Theyíll contact Andreas and start to try to sort out the experiences they went through.
DO: Just as a hint: Andreas has agreed to come on GlossLip. Weíre still trying to figure it out because heís in Norway and the timingís weird. So Iíll let everyone know when that happens. I was hoping heíd get the two of them on but unfortunately I couldnít. But Iím so excited to have Mark here now, so Iíll shut up now. So you guys met with Jason, you did this video, you released a teaser video which was very savvy of you, and that was displayed around the world. How many? It was almost 600,000 hits before it got taken down from YouTube, right?
MB: Right. Right. We were over 595,000 hits on Thursday afternoon and then BOOM. Itís gone.
MB: So thatís a little discouraging, but I have faith that everything will work out in the end.
MB: Iím getting besieged by people offering me their YouTube accounts and suggesting that I put it up over at Blip, Veoh or Google Video. And, you know, itís going to get out there. I have accounts at all of those places, so the video will be seen. Itís not a case of ďWell, if I donít have my YouTube channel this interview is not going to be seen.Ē Thatís not the case at all.
MB: The interview will go up tomorrow. I know people have been frustrated because I said Thursday, then it was moved back to Saturday and now itís moved back to Monday. I promise you I have now finally uploaded it under private URLs at this point. There are a couple of people in the media who are going to get a crack at it and then everyone will have a chance to see it tomorrow. It will be everywhere, everybody can download it and spread copies around.
MB: So the interviewís going to be seen, and I hope that itís worth the wait. I think it is. Jason is a terrific guy, heís full of passion. Heís full of vim and vinegar. And I think you can see just from the tease, even Jason was shocked by it, ďGee I didnít know I cursed that much!Ē Heís speaking straight from the heart, heís not pulling any punches and heís telling you what he thinks. And thereís a lot of interesting stuff in it. I didnít cut out a lot because I think what he has to say is pretty fascinating. According to Jason, this is just a drip in the bucket. Heís got much more he wants to say so weíll see how this plays out. Youíre going to find out how he got into Scientology, some of his experiences inside the group, and what it was that really caused him to rethink this thing and leave.
MB: It takes some time to sort through this experience. There is a lot that goes into getting sucked into a group like this and having your entire life altered. And then to come out the other side and be able to process that and share it with others, thatís a pretty amazing thing to do, and Iím glad he actually sat down to do it.
DO: Itís really important to see that, because all weíve seen is celebrities from the inside and they all say how wonderful it is. Youíve got Kristie Alley, Tom Cruise, John Travolta. So far there has been no real cracks in their veneer as far as the whole celeb angle, because their asses are kissed and they are treated well, and they are threatened if they start to become disillusioned.
I wonder if David Miscavige had any idea that Jason was going to go off on him like that. I know you said Jason got calls from the church of Scientology and he threatened them that they had better make sure that video got back up. So far itís not, but itís sort of out of everyoneís hands except for the people at YouTube and Viacom. Weíre going to have an update on that in a minute, someone who has been working with Mark on that. Iím going to have them talk to us about what they have been doing behind the scenes. I know I have been trying to do some stuff behind the scenes and making my limited connections. But Iím tapping all the ones I have to try to get in touch with the right people. And I agree, as Mark said, itís not so much that the video is not going to get out, itís that he has all these videos up on his YouTube account and he has a channel set up and he has subscribers, and itís a lot of work and effort to get that stuff up there. Then to have to do it all over yet a third time is probably not something we want Wise Beard Man spending his time doing when heís got more important cults to be slaying. So I hope YouTube comes around.
MB: There is a lot to that. But let me say that I certainly donít think that YouTube are being the bad guys in this or Viacom are being the bad guys in this. They have policies they are trying to live by, and I screwed up. Iím hoping that my screw-up will not be big enough that the channel comes to an end. I think thereís a way for us to work this out. I do think my channel, and I donít mean to sound egotistical about this or anything, itís just a YouTube channel after all, but itís kind of had a major role this year with the rise of Anonymous.
MB: That is a YouTube story and I feel my channel played some small part in that story and I hate to see that come to an end. I think it has been, not to raise my self too high here, I think Iíve actually contributed something with the channel. I would hope that even Scientology would acknowledge that I kind of stopped some of the destructive stuff that Anonymous was starting to do and set them on a legal path. So some of the threatening stuff that was there at the beginning simmered down. And all I asked Anonymous to do was get rid of their tax-exempt status. So Scientology should be thankful to me, I think.
MB: But not to overstate my role in this, but I think thatís all part of the YouTube story and Iíd like to think that thereís still a space for that on YouTube. Just because I screwed up, I would like to have a second chance. Not to bore you to tears with this, but my screw up was I got the notice over a couple of Steven Colbert clips and a take-down notice from the Church of Scientology. Well, one of the Steven Colbert notices I didnít get. Didnít get to my mailbox, whatever. The second one hit on the exact same afternoon as the Church of Scientologyís take-down notice over the Tom Cruise video. My understanding of take-down notices is that youíre supposed to have time to take it down. You know, stop the offense and move on.
MB: Well, before I had a chance to take down the offending Steven Colbert clip my account was cancelled. I checked my email, saw I have a take down-notice, okay, well let me go to the site to take it down and BOOM. It was gone. I couldnít do it. YouTube says that if Viacom will retract the take-down notice for the two Steven Colbert clips, one of which never reached me, then I would not be a repeat offender and they would give me back the channel again. Both channels, including my original channel which allowed me to post clips longer than ten minutes. Which would be really nice because I hate having to break up the twenty minute Clearwater Police video into two chunks. It would be better if people could just sit there and watch the whole thing without having to go ďPart 1, Part 2, Part 3, whatever.Ē That would be a nice outcome if we can get that worked out. And if YouTube says ďNo, we canítĒ, well, you know Iíll move on. I just think it would be nice if we could continue to have that channel where 10,000 people had subscribed and were very happy to see every video that I put up there.
MB: I can go somewhere else. I can put my videos up somewhere else and hopefully people will come over there and subscribe wherever I end up. But it would be nice to also have the YouTube channel as well.
DO: I agree. Like I said, itís a matter of how much work. I have a YouTube channel, itís not nearly as cool as yours. There are other places you can go, but what is so great about YouTube is its brand, its market. You know that you can propagate that video and so many different ways, the embeddable aspect of it. Plus the popularity of it makes a big difference. While certainly you can go elsewhere itíd be a win to know you were able to get your account back for a variety of reasons. Plus it would benefit YouTube. I mean, surely they want that traffic. Theyíre in it to make money.
DO: Theyíre not a benevolent non-charitable organization.
MB: I donít know if they would notice anything if my channel was gone or not, I would like to think that 10,000 subscribers is okay, was a decent channel for them. I donít think that they are the bad guys in this. People who are emailing them: I appreciate the fact that youíre contacting them and letting them know you want the channel back, but you donít need to be angry with them because they are doing what their policies say they are supposed to do. Theyíre willing to put the site back if Viacom is willing to retract the Colbert notices. Iím not asking for Viacom to do anything that would set precedent.
MB: Iím not saying to them ďPlease! I must have the Steven Colbert clips on my YouTube channel, even though you take them down everywhere else!Ē What Iím hoping Viacom understands is: I just didnít have a chance to act on their take-down notice and if they would give me the opportunity I would gladly remove those two clips. Especially since theyíve come up with their own wonderful solution now where Comedy Central puts all of their videos up on their website and you can embed their videos onto your pages, onto your pages, or onto your blog. They sell an ad on that, they make some money, and you get to use the content. And itís great content. I mean, what better shows are there now in comedy or politics than the Daily Show and Steven Colbertís Colbert Report. Those are brilliant shows, night in and night out. To make their whole archive available to anyone who wants to use it is terrific. So I support them in that and I hope that they would support me in getting my channel back.
DO: I hope they do.
MB: I say donít attack Viacom. Donít attack YouTube. Donít attack Steven Colbert, certainly. But I appreciate you folks who have been emailing and calling and making every effort to get the channel back. It would sure be nice to have happen. Unfortunately this happened right at the start of a weekend. So yesterday and today, nobodyís in the office, nobodyís going to be dealing with it. Weíll see what happens tomorrow morning. Maybe tomorrow this will all be settled. And maybe not. Maybe Iíll have to move on. But Iím keeping my fingers crossed and I think itís possible weíll be able to get this worked out without too much sweat. But no matter what, whether itís on that YouTube channel or elsewhere, itís going to get out there tomorrow. The Jason Beghe interview will be seen.
MB: Iím also planning to put this up on newsgroups too. So you can download a high quality copy of the full interview. And those people who use BitTorrent will be able to spread it that way as well. Weíll get it out there. Everybody will be sick of seeing this interview by the end of the week, Iím sure. Theyíll be going ďOh no! That interview again? Weíve seen it a hundred times!Ē
DO: Itís going to blow up!
MB: But the first ninety-nine times youíre really going to love it. Youíre going to be fascinated by it.
DO: I still love watching, ďIím clear as an effiní bellĒ. Thatís going be my new phrase for all things: ďAre you good? Yeah, Iím clear as an effing bell!Ē People in the chat room want to know if Jason has been getting any Fair Gaming? Has he had any harassment? Have you had any harassment during things?
MB: Really, I have suffered very little. I mean, certainly when I was working at the LMT my life was a little more frantic. Iíve had a lot of PIís follow me over the years and all that kind of stuff.
But I havenít really suffered the incredible attacks that other people have, including my friend Bob Minton. Jason has not had any attacks but scientologists are calling him, apparently. Theyíre calling and calling and calling. But heís doing great. He is happy that this is out there, heís seen part of the interview at least and he likes how it turned out. I think everyone else will too. Except David Miscavige. I donít think David Miscavige is going to like it. But hopefully there will be many people who are currently in Scientology who will see it and understand, and maybe take a second look at their involvement in the group.
MB: Itíd especially be nice for some of the other celebrities to see that Jason has spoken out and he really hasnít suffered for it.
DO: Thatís exactly what needs to be seen.
MB: Yeah. When people leave they are often terribly frightened that if they speak out they will be viciously assaulted and itís going to be the end of their careers and all that. I was a little concerned during the interview that itís going to hurt Jasonís career in anyway. But Iíve been overwhelmed by the reaction that heís gotten around the world. I think itís going to help him. Not that he needs the help, heís got a terrific career, look at his credits, heís working all the time.
DO: Sure, I think heís going to help his career. I mean, honestly, look at what being an outspoken Scientologist has done to Tom Cruiseís career. I kind of imagine the flipside of that is going to be the opposite.
MB: Iíve talk to people up in LA in the business whoíve said that they think heís a hero.
MB: Theyíre looking at this as a really courageous step and theyíre all applauding. So, time will tell, but I think itís only going to be a plus for him, and thereís a lot of people whoíve left Scientology that have kept their mouths shut. Maybe some of them will want to stand up and be counted as well. Weíll see.
DO: There are some questions in the chatroom, but you know what Iím going to do, thereís somebody whoís been working on the Viacom aspect and they had some information theyíre going to share with the group so Iím going to bring them on real quick. VictoireFlamel are you there?
VF: Yes, Iím here.
DO: Hah! You do not sound like a dude!
VF: [laughs] I am not a dude!
DO: Well how about you and Mark talk Ö
MB: The first female Victor Iíve ever met!
DO: Yes, exactly! Why donít you tell us what youíve been working on, and give us some clues about what you think maybe the outcome for Mark and his YouTube account.
VF: Essentially I agree with everything thatís been said, in the sense that this can be resolved. YouTube and Viacomís are shifting blame back and forth on each other but only because of policy issues, not necessarily because of a conspiracy theory. Both of them have said that they need to review whatís going on. Now, in my talks with YouTube, itís basically blown up, the whole entire thing has blown up in the Google offices, everybody knows. When I had originally called, nobody at the top had heard about it in the Communications and Media department, but since everybody has been calling in and emailing and everything, people at the top are hearing about it.
VF: Now, like Mark said, unfortunately this went into a weekend and calls were being made, Thursday afternoon, Friday, you know executives play golf, so you canít really expect them to be at the office on Friday, so we have to wait for Monday. Everybody that I spoke with, both the heads of Communications at YouTube and the heads of Legal at Viacom have said it sounds like something that can be worked out. And everybody has said that theyíll look into it personally. So, everything that everyoneís told me, in terms of telling me that theyíll call me back, has happened so Iím going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are going to look into it. And, as Mark said, if it canít be handled diplomatically, heíll go somewhere else.
VF: So, weíre doing the best we can and using the appropriate channels.
MB: I appreciate every effort that youíve made on my behalf too, youíve been really out there pushing hard and I appreciate it. It is amazing to me to see how the reaction of YouTube, because itís impossible to reach YouTube. You look for contact information on the YouTube site, they donít want to give you a phone number. They bury you with e-mails that go nowhere. And suddenly, thereís so much pressure put on them that they are calling me! So I thought that was pretty interesting. At any rate, you know I appreciate all the focus that has been put on it. Ultimately, itís going to work out one way or the other.
MB: People have been saying ďYou can have my accountĒ, ďYou can have my accountĒ, ďYou can go hereĒ, ďYou can go thereĒ, you know, weíll be fine.
DO: Okay, somebody asked a funny question in the chatroom. I think it was Michael Pattinson. He was asking if you regret never being a Scientologist. Iím not sure what kind of answer heís looking for Ö
MB: [Chuckles] I never would have made it past the opening sailboat. I went in and took the Personality Test, watched the Orientation film, played with the E-meter. All the time I was thinking, ďWell, this is crap!Ē So there is no possible way I could have made it to the Communication Course, probably just because itís not in my nature, just to sit there quietly for three hours staring at another person without blinking.
MB: I would have just, after five minutes, stood up and said ďYou know what, this is not for meĒ and walked out. No, I donít regret it at all, and it might have been good for my career as an actor. I met people who came to Hollywood who told me that they were thinking about joining Scientology to get a step up in their career, but I couldnít have done that.
DO: Did you take the test before you started embarking on all of this, or was it you researching the church?
MB: That was very early on in my research. At that point Iíd seen stuff on '60 Minutes' back in the Ď80ís and sort of knew that it was created by L. Ron Hubbard and people were having a hard time leaving because theyíd interviewed Paulette Cooper and Gabe Casares and all these people, so I knew there was something hinky about it. It was pretty much a money making thing.
MB: It just so happened that the house I was living in in the Hollywood Hills, the woman who living there before me was a Scientologist, so I was getting all of these magazines, the celebrity magazine, and just looking at the ads for the e-meter, it was like ďWhat the hell is this?Ē They have their own language so itís hard to decipher even an ad for a meter. So I did wind up there one day just to check it out for myself. I couldnít even make it through the Orientation film, this wonderful twenty minute film, which just hysterical! Now, apparently, Jason says the guy who stars in that thing, for anyone who watches The Simpsonís thereís ď[puts on voice] Actor Troy McClure, I must take a look over here, oh, this is the library...Ē
MB: Heís just as smiling and benevolent and wooden as can be until the end of the video when the lights come down and the music gets ominous and he says ď[puts on voice] Oh sure, you could walk out that door right now and never see Scientology again, but you might as well blow your brains out with a gunĒ, something like that.
DO: Yes, Iíve seen that video! Thatís disturbing
MB: There is a bootleg version of this on the net that Iím sure is still up there here and there, but I mean I was in stitches laughing uproariously at this, and itís so over the top, so Ö
DO: Thatís bad!
MB: And that to me is Scientology. Itís just like, ďWait a minute, do you have to take it that far? Do we have to buy all this crap?Ē And apparently the guy who is ďActor Troy McClureĒ in that has left Scientology as well.
DO: Wow, how sad, maybe we can get some work for him in Anonymous, maybe he could do some voice-over work. Guess heís out of a job now, Golden Era Productions cut him lose or he cut himself lose.
MB: Thatís one of the things that Jason talks about in the interview, too, is that fact that he is voice on a lot of the training films, like the Sea Org recruiting video, he is the voice on that. And so theyíre going to have to go back and redo all of these videos to remove any trace of him, itís going to cost them a lot of money. Darn the luck! Well, it seems they have a lot of money anyway, so might as well spend it on something.
DO: Well yeah, they have tons of money, they should be blowing it on all kinds of things. You know, the chatroom is full of all sorts of Wise Beard Man questions, that would be really upset if I didnít ask, because you know, we have this forum here. I know that youíre a good guy, youíll go along with it. Ahh, whatís this about a Wise Beard Cat? Do you have a cat? Is he wise?
MB: Yes, heís napping right next to me here, say ďHiĒ.
DO: Oh is he?
MB: Oh, where is he, come here.
DO: Can you make your cat purr for us?
MB: Iím not sure if heíll do it. [Cat: Meow!]
DO: Oh, there he is
MB: Okay, go ahead. [Cat: Meow!]. So thatís Wise Beard Cat, right here, what are you doing, waking me up?
DO: Okay, somebody else mentioned this in the chatroom Ė I remember when I first started covering this stuff I saw a video of you doing a little rendition of ĎFiddler on the Roofí, ĎIf I was a Rich Maní, do you have an acting background?
MB: Yeah, I did acting for many, many years, did a lot of musical theatre, a lot of plays, a lot of industrial films and voiceovers, commercials.
I had a couple like ĎUnder Fiveí on TV shows, never had a huge break. I was one of those working actors for a long time. And, I just saw a great show today, I finally took a break, because itís been so chaotic, I went to a musical I love today with a friend, a little light music from Steven Seintine. I donít think Iíve seen a play since I moved down to San Diego five years ago. Itís a good theatre town.
DO: Sure, youíre there, why not? Iíll tell you, what is your feeling about Anonymous now that youíve been sort of indoctrinated into this culture, do you think of it fondly, Ö?
MB: Sure, the people that Iíve met are terrific people, you know, Iíve got to say I am overwhelmed by all the people pouring out onto the streets.
MB: And the folks that Iíve met, theyíre getting smart, theyíre getting educated, theyíre on top of this and they are doing this wisely, they have my support.
DO: Howís your documentary coming?
MB: Ahh, that is something I need to raise funding for, but weíre making progress. Itís something I think that I can do, but my day is so full as it is, working full time, doing this stuff, itís amazing. I need to set aside time to actually get the project together. So once I do it will be terrific.
DO: Iím sure it will. Now, Iím going to bring on a call that I knew they had a question for you, so hang on a sec here. Pelvidar, is that you?
Pe: Yeah, Iím here, can you hear me?
DO: Yeah, excellent! I can hear you, and Mark is all yours, if he doesnít mind me just sharing him like that!
MB: Maker of those great videos?
Pe: This is me, thank you, thatís very kind of you to say, Mark.
MB: Spectacular job, excellent!
Pe: Well, I have a question for Mark and if possible after Iíd like to make this one quick follow-up comment. Mark, I think while itís true that there have been others before you that have raised their voices and perhaps even their beards in opposition to the fraud and abuse of the Church of Scientology, you certainly have to be considered someone with a lot of experience being a critic of this organization. But Anonymous has only been actively going at the Church of Scientology for a few months now, and thereís been a lot that has happened that is keeping everybody motivated and everyday seems to bring some kind of new win. But thatís kind of a two-edged sword, I think. Itís easier to stay involved and swept up with all thatís happening.
Pe: And it just seems that if we are to stay with this for the long haul, which it might require, we all need to find a motivation that isnít simply the daily wins that weíre seeing all the time. I wondered for you, is there something thatís kept you motivated over the years, especially when maybe you were feeling isolated or overwhelmed by it all? What keeps the Bunker Beard charged?
DO: [laughs] I like that!
MB: [laughs] Well, I've got to tell you itís got to be a personal thing, itís just something that interests me. And if it didnít interest me Iíd stop doing it. I canít say anymore than that, I mean why does Michael Moore keep on big business or governments, because thatís what interests him. I never expected to tackle Scientology, but I found myself intrigued by it and just kind of got deeper and deeper into it. There may come a time when, I mean, Iíve done everything I can and say, ďOkay, Iím retiringĒ.
MB: And I know that there are people who will follow, I mean itís very exciting to see all the people who are wrapped up in it now. Many Anonymous will drop by the wayside as time goes by because thatís just the nature of life. Youíre intrigued by something at first, then you kind of find other things. But it seems like thereís a solid core of people who really understand that thereís a problem in Scientology, with their abuses and their fraud, and itís not just some silly little religion that Tom Cruise belongs to. There are some serious things that should be addressed, that people should be made aware of. You know, most Americans have no idea that thereís such a thing as the RPF.
MB: If you told them that people are sent to the Rehabilitation Project Force on a whim, separated from their loved ones, forced to work hard labor and eat rice and beans until they get back into the good graces of management, of a church management, I think most people would be really outraged by that. But most people arenít aware of this.
Pe: And itís almost hard to swallow that, itís overwhelming.
MB: Yeah, thatís the thing about Scientology, it is so over the top, so bizarre, that no one will really believe the truth about it! And thatís the tricky thing about talking about it. How do you not look like this kook ranting about this alien cult. Well, letís just step back and say, ďThis is the truth, this is what happens, these are the lies they tell, and here is the documentationĒ. So hopefully itís interesting enough that once people start to hear about it they go ďWhat? What!Ē
MB: And a good hook is Xenu, people go, ďWell, why do you talk about Xenu?Ē Thatís an interesting hook. They go, ďWhat? They believe they were blown up in a volcano?Ē Itís not a central thing that every member in the group even knows about, but it is a core fact in the religion because itís all leading to that. Itís all leading to ďYou are covered in BTsĒ and the high pressure sale is on from the moment you walk in the door, to get you on the bridge and to get you to become an Operating Thetan. So itís all leading to that, and people should know that. I am ranting, raving here.
DO: No, we like that! Ranting and raving is excellent.
Pe: I just quickly want to say, then Iíll sign off and let you continue, if itís okay Dawn?
DO: Sure! You go right ahead Pelvidar.
Pe: Itís just one thing. I think itís been accurately said that Anonymous has the benefit of not having any leaders.
Pe: But what we canít say is that we havenít had our share of inspirations and I have to give our thanks to Mark, Tory, Arnie and many of the old guards, and I think quite frankly Dawn that you also, we owe thanks to you as well because you continue to provide this time to these people who want to speak to this issue. So, I just wanted to take the opportunity to say ďThank youĒ to Dawn and to Mark and everybody else whoís been active for a long time. Much appreciated.
DO: I am, you know what, I am new to this, I donít deserve any thanks, I am so glad that there are people like Jeff, Mark, Arnie, Tory and Andreas whoíve really paved the path. The wealth of information that is on the internet ... when I finally sat down and said, ďOkay, Iím going to right about this, Iím going to pursue thisĒ, which I am sure Mark can certainly understand from a journalistic aspect, when you reach that point and you go ďIím going to pursue thisĒ, there was just so much information about it. Because of people like Mark, Arnie and Andreas whoíve been doing it for years and years and years.
DO: Weíre really lucky to have these people. Think about all the things in the world which weíd all like to change and fix, but thereís not enough information out there for us. Iím just disgusted that the mainstream media hasnít picked up on it yet, which I really hope happens now with Jasonís video. Mark, I hope he sells that as hard as he can, as fast as he can, because the faster you sell out, the faster the message gets out there.
MB: I donít think anyoneís buying, so...
DO: I donít believe that
MB: So it wont sell out in any time, but I appreciate all the kind words. There have been people doing this much longer than I have, and I have one little cog in this thing and I am happy to have offered the video and the audio and stuff over the years. It is really great to see people taking it even further, like what Pelvidar has done with his videos.
MB: Itís damn impressive. He puts a lot of thought and care and production value into those videos. I donít have the talent for all the incredible work he does with after affects, and thatís an amazing skill heís bringing.
MB: So it wont sell out in any time, but I appreciate all the kind words, there have been people doing this much longer than I have, and I have one little cog in this thing and I am happy to have offered the video and the audio and stuff over the years. It is really great to see people taking it even further, like what Pelvidar has done with his videos.
MB: Itís damn impressive. He puts a lot of thought and care and production value into those videos. I donít have the talent for all the incredible work he does with after affects, and thatís an amazing skill heís bringing. When I started this, have more time on my hands. As an actor I had the free time to devote to this that I don't have anymore now that Iím working full time at the TV station. Itís encouraging to see other people come along and surpass the things that Iíve done. So, when I drop dead there will be people that will carry on, itís good to see.
DO: Youíre not dropping dead soon, are you? [chuckles]
MB: I may not make it to next week. But I...
DO: Oh, stop.
MB: I think I will. Iíve got the cats here, I can't leave them alone.
DO: Is there a Wise Beard Girlfriend? Someone here wants to know that.
MB: Oh man...
MB: I now have women all around the world lusting after me, except not anywhere in my radius. If there was somebody around here, please. Iím not hard to find.
DO: I run a celeb website and I do matchmaking on the side, I may have to work on this. Is Tory married?
MB: You can get right on it...
DO: What about Tory? Is she married?
MB: Tory is not married. Tory has had lured me in her bedroom so many times, and when we get there she says "Lets talk on the web." Itís very discouraging.
DO: [Laughs] That is very discouraging.
MB: Toryís adorable and she's made it very clear that she's smarter than that. Sheís not going to fall into my trap.
DO: You don't strike me as the kind of guy laying out traps. Iím sure that all this fame and fortune will bring you all sorts of women; you're going to have to start discerning and tossing them aside.
DO: Not everyone who wants your fame is the right people for you. Keep that in mind.
MB: Someone give me a stick so I can start beating them off.
DO: Oh, be careful now what you say.
DO: Because Jeff knows about people getting beaten over the head. Jeff, are you still with us?
JH: I am, yes. I am listening, fascinated.
DO: [laughs] You're probably wondering, "Who are these crazy people?" [JH laughs]
DO: Did you have any questions for Mark? I see we only have seven minutes left and we're going to wrap it up. Weíre making it a little goofy because I know in Anonymous they like it a little goofy. I was trying to have some fun tonight on top, because we had the serious hour the first 45 minutes.
JH: No real questions, Iím happy to meet Mark and I admire your work.
MB: And Jeff, Iím thrilled that you're speaking out. Itís fascinating to hear all the inside stories, and that's what we need.
JH: Yeah, definitely, and I think we're going to hear more and more of that.
MB: Iím just a conduit for your stories, so Iím thrilled that all of this is tumbling out now.
JH: I think that there's going to be more and more people speaking out now, because of Anonymous and because of the things that you're doing and so forth, and I think that it's just going to reach a tipping point.
DO: What do you think that that tipping point will be? Do you think, as Mark said, it'll be an even more high profile celebrity, or maybe even a high profile ex-scientologist? Mike Rinder, for example, might come out and start speaking out about the abuses. Do you think that's possible?
JH: I think that anything's possible, and I think that that would certainly accelerate it. Iím of the opinion that the implosion is going to be financial. I think that that's where we're going to see it.
DO: So the funds start dwindling, and then they're going to have to make some drastic changes?
JH: Exactly, and we're already seeing already seeing that well in progress. Weíre seeing them tightening up, and working harder and harder to get more and more money from the few people that are still left involved with Scientology.
MB: It does seem to be desperate times now. They have nothing new to sell because Hubbardís dead and he can't write anything new, so they have to keep repackaging the same stuff over and over and over, selling it to the same people because fewer people are joining nowadays.
MB: Itís going to be rough times for them.
JH: It is, and you'll also see them trying to get money for nothing. Simply getting donations for the International Association of Scientologists, building buildings, buying buildings, and you see more and more, they just want money. Theyíre not trying to sell anything, they just want more money.
MB: But every time I think "Wow, the Orgs are really quiet", then we hear that Bart Simpson gave them 10 million dollars. When they have people that can just dig into their pockets and give them these huge sums of money, they're going to keep rolling for a while.
JH: Yeah, and that's why they're still afloat. Itís because they do have those high rollers.
MB: If you think about how they weathered the storm over the decades, especially during the FBI raids back in the late 70's when the top people went to prison for covert operations against the US government. If they can weather that, they can probably weather Mike Rinder speaking up, too.
JH: Sure, sure
MB: The thing that we're seeing now is that critical mass of information out there, making it harder and harder for them to continue when the foundation is cracking underneath their feet.
JH: Exactly, exactly.
DO: Speaking of Mike Rinder, what is your guy's speculation on what he's doing?
JH: I think that he's laying low and probably doing some healing. I know Mike, not that we always got along, but I don't know that he's going to speak out very soon. The reason being that Mike is so complicit in what has gone on with the Church, he has a personal stake in a lot of the abuses and crimes and lies that have gone on. So either he will stay quiet and stay under the radar, or he will very dramatically start to reveal a lot of very sensitive material, and I know that the Church is very frightened about that.
DO: I won't go into too much detail, but I have a good feeling that he'll squeal, he's going to talk. I just sense that he may see that that's probably the best thing for everyone involved. I don't think he seems like the kind of guy to be able to live with himself, living out silently wherever he's at, knowing that people's lives are destroyed and he could have done something about it and didn't. I do sense that, I don't know why. Just a feeling I have.
JH: Mike, like a lot of the people on the inside, has a good heart. I think that his conscience will win out in the end.
DO: I do too. Unlike David Miscavige, who, I don't know if we'll ever see him behind bars, but I can tell you, with god as my witness, this is something I dream on a frequent basis. Like I said, I really do need to get a life.
DO: Because I think its part of this whole story, and Mark probably feels the same way, you want to see some sort of dramatic conclusion that helps people move past their lies. Who better to take the fall than the person who really instilled this sinister, intimidating, fearful environment? I really do feel that he is directly and almost singularly responsible for how the Church of Scientology has turned from what probably started out not necessarily as a benevolent or altruistic place, but certainly I think it had the right ideology. I think itís all nonsense, but lots of religions seem like nonsense to many people. Really, itís not what's in the books, it's how you go about implementing it, and unfortunately they implemented it the wrong way. A dangerous, vicious, cruel way. I want to see him behind bars.
JH: It could have gone either way with Scientology. It could have ended up as a mainstream benevolent religion if it had gone in that direction, but it didn't.
JH: I think that David Miscavige has destroyed the Church of Scientology, and I think he will end up being a very hated man.
DO: Yes, I think he will. Does anybody know where his wife is? Shelly?
JH: Sheís in detention somewhere. I think in one of the CST, Church of Spiritual Technology centers where they have where they bury things underground. Sheís at one of those places and she's...
DO: Probably not happy to be there. I heard that he was having an affair with one of his assistants and she was not happy to hear that. Did you hear word of that?
JH: Iíve heard those rumors, and Iíve heard those for some time. I don't know if itís the truth or not.
DO: I know you don't want to speculate.
JH: Iíve just heard that she is no longer involved with the Church management, and disappeared.
DO: Mark, we're almost out of time. So the video is going to go up sometime tomorrow, right?
DO: And how will we know where that video will be? Will you post something on xenutv.com?
MB: Yeah, Iíll have it up there and Iíll make a post on A.R.S. Iím sure that you'll see it in the news tomorrow. It won't be a secret, it will be out there, I promise.
DO: Will you send me an email?
DO: I would be so appreciative, because you Iím going to want to post it up. Will it be embeddable? Will we be able to start spreading it, wherever itís at?
DO: Excellent, excellent. Well you know, you can send it to me, and I will make sure that it gets out there.
DO: Thank you both so much. VictoireFlamel is still on, and whoever's waiting there on the line. Thank you everybody for calling. Thank you so much Jeff, thank you so much Mark. I think this was a really great show.
DO: We got a little goofy, but that's the way these things are. You have to keep it fun for the masses because we do need the masses, we really do. I feel very strongly about that. Mark, good luck, watch your back, be aware. Jeff, Iím think Iím going to get in contact with you, so look for an email from me. And thank you both so much, just is safe.
MB: Thank you.
DO: Take care, guys.
MB: Okay. Bye bye.
DO: Bye bye.
[[END OF INTERVIEW]]