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Marc Headley interview on Glosslip

Glosslip Radio
25 April 2008
Radio interview by Dawn Olsen
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Transcript of Glosslip interview with Marc Headley
25 April 2008 ver 1.1

Interview by Dawn Olsen (DO) of Glosslip ( and Marc Headley (MH), ex-Scientologist

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Transcript produced by: anomnomnom1, an0n1nNZ, Anonymeep, cannedonymous, its.an0nym0us, Kaminonymous: and SamuelAdams.
Edited by: anon1nNZ, contact for any on for corrections.
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DO: Good afternoon Glosslip radio listeners, I am Dawn Olsen of, and I am very excited to have a very special guest with me today. It's Marc Headley, an ex-Scientologist who was with the Church of Scientology for 15 years. He's got some really very interesting, exciting and sad stories to share with us about his experiences within the Org. He and I talked a few times before while we were setting up the interview, and certainly I'm well aware of the stories he has to tell, so I'm just going to give you a little background here from his bio. Marc worked at the Scientology international management headquarters in Gilman Hot Springs from 1990-2005, and he worked for the media production company owned by the Church of Scientology, Golden Era Productions. They're the ones that put out all those Scientology commercials and propaganda videos we've seen and mocked on the web over the last few months.


DO: Having worked there for quite some time, he ended up becoming the Executive Producer at Golden Era Productions. He left in 2005 and now lives in California with his family. We're going to leave it at that because why he left is very pertinent to this story. First we're going to begin with introducing Marc. Hello Marc, thanks for joining us, I'm really excited to have you.

MH: Hi Dawn, great to be here.

DO: And you're recovering from a cold, so everybody...

MH: Just a little bit hoarse.

DO: Just a little bit hoarse. We'll try and not make you talk too much. I'm just curious, can you tell us how you became involved in Scientology? I know you still have family members who are in, so let's go with your background first.

MH: What actually happened was my mother, probably in the very early 80's, got involved in Scientology through a friend.


MH: More and more, she became involved in doing courses and getting auditing. I grew up living across the street from the Celebrity Center in Los Angeles. So I grew up around Scientologists, then my mom became a Scientologist and I went to a Scientology school. So from about the age of six or seven I was indoctrinated into the lingo and the procedures, and all the different things that Scientologists do. In 1989, I left school, the Scientology school that I was attending, to join the Sea Organization.


MH: Very shortly from when I joined the Sea Org, I was transferred from Los Angeles to the Golden Era Productions facility, so that's how I got in. When you grow up in Scientology, the Sea Org is made out to be the elite of all Scientology so if you can actually go into the Sea Org, it's considered a privilege. They have a slogan: "Many are called, few are chosen." And that's how they recruit people.

DO: So, they make it sound like a very elite society, and not everyone, you may be interested but not everyone gets to join, therefore increasing the image of the Sea Org?


MH: That's exactly correct. You don't really see when you're Scientology public, if you're a parishioner, behind the scenes into the Sea Org. You only see the staff that work at the different churches. A parishioner might never go into a management facility or a confidential location such as Golden Era Productions. They're not really privy to the goings on there, its very mysterious. Even when I joined the Sea Org in 1989, I was not aware that there was a facility, even a secret facility that was up in Hemet. I had no idea, even after I was in the Sea Org for many months. I had never heard it until I was asked if I would like to go there. So I said "Sure, what it it?", I didn't even know.


MH: I didn't know who David Miscavige was, I didn't know who any of the current leaders of Scientology were, nothing. I had no knowledge of them whatsoever, that's the view of a kid growing up in it. So that's how I ended up at Golden Era Productions.

DO: Now, when you and I talked, I shared with you some experiences that Jeff Hawkins and I talked about. Do you know Jeff?

MH: Yeah, I know Jeff.

DO: I assumed you would have, but there's a lot of people who've come and gone over the years so I shouldn't assume that people know each other. But he worked with David Miscavige doing marketing, that type of stuff, I figured you could have run into each other. He told a very disturbing story about David actually abusing his staff members and specifically Jeff, he himself was abused.


DO: And he saw a senior Org member get beaten, it was like an open-handed slap to the face several times. That was David's way of intimidating staff into doing what he wants and he's a very angry man. But you also have some more stories and I'd like you to share that with us, I think it's very important because we're trying to build a picture about a man we don't know that much about, you have a lot of insight into that, why don't you tell us what you know about David Miscavige.

MH: Well, from the time I showed up at Golden Era Productions in 1990, I had been there maybe a few months when I saw David Miscavige physically beat somebody up. And that was in 1990. So it's not like this just developed over the past five years, there's a pattern going on.


MH: All the way up until I left in 2005 I'd say that I saw David Miscavige physically strike somebody or slap as you say or punch in the face, I'd say I witnessed myself at least thirty different occasions, myself. And I heard from other people second hand many more instances that occurred. That was the turning point was for me. In late 2004 I was walking through the main factory facility with David Miscavige and I had made a smart-alec comment in response to one of his questions, apparently he'd not had a good day already and my comment was not well received and he proceeded to unload on me.


MH: He punched me in the face at least ten times and my glasses fell off, I was thrown up against a desk unit, a counter top, and that was the moment right then when I realized I could go no further down than this, to be beaten by the leader of my so-called church. What else could I do that could get me in a lower status than that? And I decided that I would strike back. As soon as he saw that in my eyes, I was grabbed and escorted out of the building and made to take a walk for about an hour or so. He sent several people off to console me, that he really shouldn't have done that and he was really sorry. While I was being escorted out of the room I heard him say to his staffers, “He was going to hit me back”.


MH: And I thought to myself, “Do you know what? I really was, I really was going to hit you back”. At that point that I started figuring out what I was going to do because I wasn't going to be staying there much longer. And in January 2005 I left. A lot of people, a lot of Scientologists think that Dave Miscavige is the savior of the church and all those things that he's done have kept it alive, basically the reason they are still around. That might also be the reason why they're not going to last, because of the crimes, the physical violence, the emotional and mental torture, that he puts people through, its mind-boggling.


MH: A lot of people don't believe, the stuff they read on the internet, that David Miscavige has done. When I got out of the Sea Org I couldn't believe the amount of stuff that was on the internet that was absolutely, 100% accurate, of the going ons at the international headquarters or Int Base. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff on the internet and it's absolutely true, pretty much I'd say 99% of it is very accurate.

DO: It's disturbing, you and I talked about the Jenna Miscavige 'Nightline' interview which is pretty powerful. I know sure, it's unfortunately only half an hour, but I think they covered some of the major talking points. The forced abortions and the child labor practices within the church. Those are some pretty sensational claims and you read about them on the internet, you've heard about them from ex-scientologists, and now you have a major media site essentially validating it by presenting it for public consumption.


DO: So I'm hoping that more of these stories that we hear are being treated in the light that they are given, and that is “This is truth, this is reality, this is what has happened to these people, and it's very sad, it's damaging”. You seem like one of the more stable ex-scientologists. I'm not sure if it's your upbringing or just your nature, but having talked to you a few times now you really seem to understand what you went through and have been able to move forward. That's good to see, because people inside need to know that there's hope when they leave to the outside. We want to help people, I know you do, you have family members in there. I want to stay on the David Miscavige thing because I think it's very fascinating. This is the leader of the Church of Scientology, this is the man who represents the state of this spiritual organization which says they are going to clear the planet and make everything better for mankind.


DO: Yet obviously we've just heard your story, you've seen several people physically abused by David Miscavige, we know Jeff's story, and you yourself were abused. Now there's and interesting story about David Miscavige throwing people overboard? This is all just so confusing to me. Can you tell us a little more about that particular story?

MH: L. Ron Hubbard actually formed the Sea Org on ships, on sea vessels and when people, students or staff, would do something that was against his teaching, then he would throw them overboard. This was when they were at dock or in port or something, they would be thrown over the side of the ship as a punishment. Obviously the Sea Org is no longer a sea based organization, they have moved to land.

[13:00] At the Int Base there is a large lake that is very close to the manufacturing building. If you look on Google Earth you'll see it in a second, but there's a little bridge that leads out to a little island. In the '90s Dave re-instituted being thrown overboard. So if somebody was late to report to post or they had done something they weren't supposed to ... basically it was a way of punishing people. And you would literally get walked out to the lake, you were allowed to take off your shoes, and I think your tie, we were wearing at the time button-down dress shirts and tie, so you were allowed to take off your shoes and your tie, and then they read like a little passage, something like “May your sins be thrown into the water”, and then they'd push you into the water.


MH: This lake by the way was filled with dead birds, fish, mold, and it never got cleaned or anything.

DO: Eww.

MH: People started to get sick after they'd been thrown into the lake so they had to cancel it. Okay, now fast-forward to 2004, all of a sudden in the middle of the night, like 4 AM, hundreds of people are called in, you'd need to report to the base right away. Buses were sent out to pick people up from their housing, everybody showed up. David Miscavige was there, wearing his nighttime pajamas, walking around, waiting for everybody to show up.


MH: He explained that this guy, he was the C.O.C. of International, Mark Yager, was living with another executive in Fairmount who was named Guillaume Lesevre, the Executive Director International. Every day when Dave would have meetings with these two guys, he would tease them and torment them about how they were gay and because they lived together he knew they were up to stuff. This went on for months, and he would always tease them. Well this night when we got pulled in, Mark Yager had decided that he wasn't going to take it anymore, he had dragged his mattress out of his room, halfway across the property, and put it in basically just a field of dirt and decided he was going to sleep there. Dave walks by his room that night, he saw that he was gone and the mattress was gone, and then that's when he ordered "Okay, somebody go find Mark Yager and call everybody back in". After he explained this whole thing to us, he said that it was our fault that Mark Yager wouldn't sleep in the room he was assigned and that we were all going overboard.


MH: And a hundred people were thrown, because we couldn't go into the lake anymore, we thrown into this swimming pool that's at the property, it's called the Star of California. It's like a ship that's built into the hill and has a huge swimming pool. We all, one by one, had to just walk off the diving board into the pool, like walking the plank. Those are the kind of things, like being woken at 4 am, being dragged in, being thrown into the pool, and then being told "You guys are useless and you can't get anything right" and then ... “Go home”. Incidents like that were regular occurrences at the Int Base.


DO: It's sick, but worse, that it's being done by a church that says they're a religion, that gets tax exempt status. That presents themselves as the alternative to psychiatry, that they are going to help us all and all of mankind. You're right, this is really sick.

MH: There's a story on the internet, if you Google “musical chairs int base” there's a tear-jerking story of something that Dave put several hundred staff through, threatening to split them up from their spouses. It's too long of a story to tell right now but somebody did write it up and it is on the internet. It's insane, but even during that time people were made, as punishment, to sleep under their desks for weeks on end until certain achievements or milestones were met.

[18:00] Until those were met, you went to sleep under your desk, then you got up in the morning, you went to take a shower in the garage of the estate facility there, and you never went home. And if your wife was in a different area of the church, then you didn't see her, because you were sleeping under your desk and that's just the way it was. Sometimes he would even forget that he had ordered people that they were restricted to the property and couldn't go home. And months later someone would say "Well, I'm not going home anyway" and he would go "Why not?" and it'd be like "Sir, we've been restricted to the base for three months now". And he would be like "Oh. That was only meant for a day or two", and this is like four months later.


MH: In 1990, when I arrived at Golden Era Productions, there were 1200 staff that worked at that facility. It was a sprawling complex, it's actually over 500 acres. There's several International Management Organizations that exist there. It's also where Religious Technology Center is located, which is the organization that Dave Miscavige is the chairman of the board of, and about four or five other church organizations that are housed there. As of 2007, there was about 400 people left that worked at that facility. And those 400 people are still demanded to do the work of the 1200 people that were there in the early '90s.

DO: Have you talked to anyone, Marc, who is still in there? Do you have any contact with anyone who is still in the church, or not much?


MH: Well, what ends up happening is when these people leave is that they get on the internet and ultimately I'm able to find them or meet up with them and in a lot of cases I've actually helped people out, gotten them jobs, gotten them situated. When you leave the International Base, besides losing all contact with your family and friends and basically anybody that in your life, you have no money. You have no credit. Most staff that work there do not even have a driver's license. There's no reason for you to drive anywhere. You work, you live there, you work there, you never leave. So when a person like that leaves it's very hard for them to get on their feet. I talked to a guy a few months back who had left about a year ago and he said that when I left, we thought it could never get any worse.


MH: And that's always what you think, every year that would go by, we'd think “Well , what, at least it can't get any worse. It can only get better from here, because this is the lowest of the low that we could possibly experience”. And he said that from 2005 until 2007 it got markedly worse. So, when you're there, you think, “It's got to get better. It just can't go on like this forever”. I started thinking that in the year 2000. I thought, “What, it's got to get better. It just can't keep going like this”. Until in 2005 I realized that it's never going to get better, it's only going to get worse. When you're there, you're there to help people.


MH: The whole reason that you're there, that anyone is there, in Scientology or in the Sea Organization, is because they have an internal urge to help other people. That's it. So, when you see all these things happening, people being treated like this, it totally goes against the grain of what you're there for. And sooner or later I think a lot of these people are just going to leave. More and more of these stories will come out and more of these different things. In 2003 Dave Miscavige instituted a rule that all staff at the Int Base facility have to call Tom Cruise "Sir". Okay, now, Tom Cruise is a public scientologist. He's a parishioner. Some of these people that have been in the Sea Organization at the Int Base have been in the Sea Org for 30 years.


MH: Dedicated their life. And the only person that they have to call "Sir" is someone who's senior in rank to them. But now, this new guy, Tom Cruise, garners the title of "Sir". And if you don't call him “Sir”, you might get away with calling him "Mr. Cruise", if the situation deems that you couldn't just say "Sir". But if you called him "Tom" or "T.C.", that's it, you were in trouble. People actually did get in trouble for calling him "Tom". And it was made a big deal of, like "blaughtyblah" called Mister Cruise "Tom" today and that person was made an example of. What job security do you have if you've been in the Sea Organization for 30 years and a movie star can come along and suddenly he's senior in position to you and …


MH: And when he hasn't dedicated nearly as much of his life to doing what you're doing, that kind of thing.

DO: You worked with Tom Cruise quite regularly...

MH: Well, no, I didn't actually work with him. What had happened was in the early '90's when he first became a Scientologist he had to do his training to become an auditor. While you do your training you also get auditing and you kind of go back and forth. In order to do that, you need to get somebody who hasn't had any auditing. In the early '90's I had had very little auditing, if any. So I was the perfect candidate for Tom Cruise, so he actually audited me while he did his auditor training.

[25:00] So I got to know him then, but in the mid '90's, when he got up to OT3 he left the church. He was not being a scientologist. And during those times...

DO: He was disillusioned, wasn't he?

MH: Well, he basically thought it was complete bullshit. He read all the stuff about…

DO: The wall of fire, right??

MH: Yeah, he got to all that Xenu stuff. "Xenu stuff?", and he was like "I'm out of here". And he left. And when he was in Scientology, though, several Scientologists were implanted into his staff network. His assistants and his people, people that helped him run his career. And they were Scientologists. So, when he became upset with Scientology these people stayed with him.


MH: And they were the eyes and ears for David Miscavige. On when they were going to be able to get Tom Cruise back into Scientology. So for many years, Tom never came back to the Int Base to do anything. We never heard of him, we never saw him.

DO: Was that when he was married to Nicole?

MH: Absolutely.

DO: So this is during that time?

MH: Totally. And Dave would comment regularly about how how much of an out-ethics person Tom Cruise was. Because he's off with Nicole and he does whatever Nicole wants, and Nicole doesn't want anything to do with Scientology. The facts surrounding him getting back into Scientology are very speculative, but from all that I know, the church seized upon the fact that Nicole had gotten pregnant.


MH: And that Tom, up until that point, was not able to have children whatsoever. So her being pregnant was a major faux pas for her and that she had been cheating...So then out of nowhere, Tom Cruise divorces Nicole Kidman, completes OT4 in the same week. And now, out of nowhere, he's the most dedicated Scientologist in the whole world. Just like overnight. He's with Dave all the time. And it was bizarre to people that worked at the Int Base.


MH: Ten years this guy was gone and all of a sudden he just shows up out of nowhere. And now he's just a fanatic. He's claiming that he's been in Scientology for fifteen, twenty, years and you're just like "What the hell, man? Where did that come from?"

DO: It's a lie. So let me see if I can summarize this. Nicole comes into his life and he goes to OT3. He says this stuffs a bunch of BS because the whole Xenu story sounds like a load of BS. I'm not even talking about the tech. I don't know enough about the tech to even slam it. But we'll just say the tech is A-Okay but the whole Xenu story is BS. So Tom sees this, Nicole's not into Scientology, her dad is a clinical psychologist and she's Catholic. They're just not into it. She gets pregnant, although you and I know because, we're well aware that that was Tom's baby that she was pregnant with.


DO: She saved the placenta, I talked to Andrew Morton about this, just for this purpose of when they got divorced. She had her little ace in the hole, which unfortunately is sick that she had to have it, but there it was. And they seized on this opportunity of Tom Cruise, getting his wife pregnant, like that's something awful. It is impugning Nicole Kidman's reputation as being a cheater, which she emphatically denied. And I just don't buy it because, I think… Even to this day she still says nice stuff about Tom.

MH: Yeah, even when they did get the divorce, the only thing that Tom would say was "She knows what she did".

DO: Exactly. Which I think is sick.

MH: That's the only statement that's ever been made on why they got a divorce was "She knows what she did". That's it.

DO: That could be anything. That could be she didn't buy into Scientology. She got bigger than I was. Who knows what it was? But it implies she did something, some sort of infidelity or betrayal of some sort. Which doesn't sound like what actually happened. I mean, we may never know. There's certainly lots of speculation.

MH: Yeah.


DO: Now, we won't focus too much on Tom Cruise, although, since you certainly have the knowledge ... So he and Nichole divorced, and Tom's alone, as we know from reading Andrew Morton's book, Tom doesn't like to be alone. Tom wants women in his life, he's always surrounded by women, he always wants people around him, he doesn't want to be lonely. Is there any truth to the rumor that David Miscavige and the Church of Scientology helped him find his next girlfriend and to make sure that they were pro-Scientology? What do you think of those stories?


MH: Sure, those are absolutely true. After Nichole, he was with Penelope, and then Penelope wouldn't drop the Buddhism so he dropped her, and then he was going out with another girl I think her name was, Sophia Vergara.

DO: Vergara?

MH: Right. And then the thing with Sophia wasn't going to work out. There was something about her or something that had happened or she did or something that was not going to be good if they were put under the microscope. So Dave was constantly being called by Tom and Tom was in his ear, about how he's gotta figure out what he's going to do, and Dave was like "Why do I have to hear this?". He tells his assistant, who is also his wife, Shelly Miscavige, to figure this out and handle it. What we ended up doing was, in Golden Era Productions we have a talent agency that works out of the celebrity center in Los Angeles.


MH: They do auditions for films and videos all the time, so a casting call went out to all the young twenty-something Scientology actresses that there's a Tom Cruise movie coming up that you might be able to get a part in and we need you to come in for an audition. They were asked a series of questions and these interviews were videoed. And those tapes, every day, were compiled and sent up to RTC. We must have interviewed hundreds of Scientology actresses.

DO: Anyone you want to name, specifically? Who was rejected?

MH: Oh, well, then they were all rejected. Every single one of them was rejected.


DO: By Tom, or by Scientology? I mean- who...

MH: We don't know. They just went went up to RTC and that was it. We never heard. Nobody said "Okay, this is the one, get her", it was just, nothing. And then, this big head honcho guy from RTC, Greg Wilhere, who used to be one of Dave's go-to guys, is suddenly jet setting all over the place. He's going off to New York, he's going down to LA, and this is all from the Hemet facility. And he's taking interviews with high profile actresses. And that's where you hear the stories about Scarlett, and Jennifer Garner, because Dave just said, "If you had a list, what would the list be? Let's just go through what girls you'd like to be with." And that was how that happened.


MH: The Katie Holmes...

DO: Can he not get a date on his own or it just the whole Scientology thing, he wanted a Scientology girlfriend? And was this his idea or was it David Miscavige's idea?

MH: It was mutual between them. They were like "Hey, what can we do?" I left in 2005, so obviously Katie Holmes was the one, I think what happened on the Katie Holmes one was she had just recently done a magazine interview that said she wanted to marry Tom Cruise.

DO: Right.

MH: So how much more perfect can you get? She's the perfect candidate. They just gotta like each other. And then, sure enough...

DO: Were you around for when she was first indoctrinated? There's a story, then we'll move on from Tom Cruise because I know you've got lots of actually pretty, even more interesting things than old...

MH: Well, I'll tell you this, I'll tell you this.


MH: When Katie showed up years before that, there's this girl that worked in Tom Cruise's camp, a Sea Org member, part of the Church of Scientology, the organization that runs the church. Her name is Jessica Rodriguez. Jessica Rodriguez is an auditor and was with Tom because she was giving security checks to Isabella and Conner Cruise, Tom Cruise's two adopted children. These children were being interrogated on the e-meter whenever they were misbehaving or things weren't going so well. They would get these metered interrogations from Jessica Rodriguez. So it seems ironic that as soon as Katie gets into Tom's camp, suddenly her best friend is Jessica Rodriguez.


MH: The only reason Jessica Rodriguez is Katie's best friend is to get her through her auditing and her training. Someone who can be the eyes and ears of the church so they know who's in Katie's ear and they can pick off people who are going to foil that little plan of theirs. So that's where Jessica Rodriguez comes in. Jessica Rodriguez is in the same camp as Tommy Davis and these other handlers that were with Tom. They were the eyes and ears of David Miscavige. So if something happened they could say "This is the guy who's doing X, Y and Z” and then the Church can figure out how to deal with them. Or they can tell Tom how to deal with it.


MH: To this day, you've got Jessica Rodriguez and Tommy Davis working with each other at the Office of Special Affairs in Hollywood. Yesterday those two were together.

DO: They were together yesterday? Tommy, Tommy's still in? I thought Tommy was demoted to scrubbing David Miscavige's floor for screwing up that whole John Sweeney thing?

MH: That was the word on the street. He did disappear for many many moons, and then all of the sudden he just popped back up on the radar. So, I'm sure it'd be very interesting to ask Tommy where he's been for the last year or so, but he's definitely not been out in the news. And even now he's not really out in the news. He's a little bit behind the scenes. But both him and Jessica Rodriguez have been involved in recent handlings on what's going down from OSA.

DO: Ah. So maybe he was, uh, brought up simply because they have to handle Anonymous? Because of all the recent backlash?


MH: Well, they've got nobody left! You've got Mike Rinder who took off, Tommy got busted, I mean they're running out of people. They're running out of faces, they're running out of people to throw under the bus. So I think they're getting desperate. It's like, "Okay, Tommy's been punished enough, lets bring him back".

DO: Right. It's like, "We need bodies", and they're out of people as they start to defect. Alright there's some questions, somebody wanted to know who you think might be the next celebrity Scientologist who could blow out of there.

MH: Oh man, that's, that's...

DO: Speculative.

MH: That's a good question. There's so many that I wouldn't just pick one. There's so many. I mean Jason, out of all the Scientology actors in the Los Angeles area, we used Jason Beghe all the time for the technical training films.


MH: He was very well thought of by David Miscavige and the local Scientology celebrity community. So the fact that he left? I think there's going to be a lot of Scientologists who are going to follow suit and they're just going to say "What? Jason's right. I'm out of here". I don't think it's going to be just one celebrity, I think over the next year we're going to see several more people coming out. Doing videos, speaking out. Yeah. I couldn't tell you which one, though. The guy that did the Orientation film, Larry Anderson, he's the guy. There's a Scientology indoctrination film, where at the end he says "You don't have to join Scientology. But you could also drive off a cliff or


DO: I love that video.

MH: Yeah, exactly. Well, that guy didn't want to be in Scientology. The guy who said that…

DO: So is he gone? He's blown out of there?

MH: I don't know, but he hasn't been very active. No one has seen or heard of him in a long time. But he would be a great person to come out and say, "Hey Jason, you're totally right. It's a total crock", because he's the one who says that in the movie.

DO: Yeah, if that's not irony, I don't know what is. Here's another question and then we can go back to your some of things we talked about. Who Greg Berry is obviously. He came out with a document recently that targeted Tom Cruise and David Miscavige. And in that document he mentioned that Scientology membership is down 50% and income is down 50%. What do you think? Do you think that is speculation or do you think there is some validity to that statement?


MH: I think that's 100% valid. I know that since the release of the major program that David Miscavige spearheaded, "The Golden Age of Tech", Scientology statistics internationally have been going down, down, down. It was a huge problem in the mid '90's. And he considered it basically the staff making him "wrong" by not doing what he said to do and mis-implementing the program so that it actually drove people out of the organization and facilities. Before I left in 2005, I toured several of the brand new Church of Scientology facilities in New York, San Francisco, Northern California, Los Angeles. I went to several of these brand new facilities that had just been renovated and newly built. And every single one that I went to was completely empty, like nobody in it. It was like ghost town.


DO: There is a good question in the chat room and it is something that I am familiar with because, I was here in Cleveland and there is a Columbus Org which their building which is called the Ideal Org and their putting in all kinds of money. And it seems to be that's something they are doing a lot of putting money into real estate. What is that strategy? Why are they building all the Orgs when they are clearly losing members left and right? I mean it. I know it. They know it, but they aren't going to say it. What do you think that strategy is about, is that how they are going to fund themselves in the future by selling off real estate? Or is it just a show, a veneer to make it seem like things are going well?


MH: I think it's that more than anything else. I think that Dave is basically saying “Hey, look what we've got. We're building these islands of 'sanity' all around the world”. And it's all they really have to talk about at their little events that they do, it's really just a talking point and something that they can show off. But when you go to these places they are empty. I think it's even starting to become a kind of a thing like the Scientologists know they are empty and it's losing it's whole spin right now. I don't really understand the whole real estate aspect of it. I mean obviously they have that to fall back on.


MH: But for the most part, over the last four or five years the majority of the funding for those new buildings is coming from high profile donations from the Nancy Cartwrights and Tom Cruises of the world. That's where they are getting the money to those things. So the parishioners themselves have dried up as an income source because they have been milking these people for 20 or 30 years. It's like, “Hey, come on, I've already given you 5 million dollars. I'm done”. So they are getting a lot of their money from these A-list celebs. They are setting up these new buildings and there's nobody in them. I don't think any Church of Scientology anywhere in the world, except for the one in Clearwater, is actually turning a profit. When I was there in 2005 that was the case, so the organization called Flag or the Flag land base in Clearwater was the only place that was actually providing income and ...


MH: ...supporting international management and paying for things to be done, all of the rest of the churches were just getting by. They weren't able to pay their staff. They're in this new building and even in Buffalo they built a brand new building and the people in charge of getting people into the Org to do services are out in their cars with the heat on because the Org has no gas and it's freezing inside the Org. So they are calling parishioners from their cell phones in their cars with the heat on. This is an organization that was just recently built from the ground up and that's the state that they are in. I definitely think they are absolutely losing people, losing money and they are in a downward spiral.


DO: And they are in a downward spiral, although the Columbus Org, I am being told in the chat rooms, they got some of their money from local donations. But it sounds like the way they did it was very sneaky and sort of from what I have read about them they sort of trick people into donating money. I imagine with all the negative publicity about Scientology extending from Tom Cruise, his own bat-shit crazy attitude, has a lot to do with driving people away or at least making them look at a distance. It is amazing that that they have anyone donating to the Org itself. I want to talk about some of the things that Jenna and Astra talked about last night. Which I know intimately if it not on a personal basis but having been in Sea Org. What is it about forced abortion thing for Sea Org members? I've heard rumors of it, but is that true?


MH: At Int Base, I know of several female staff members that were absolutely pressured into having abortions. I know one girl who had four abortions in a five-year period. And when somebody goes to the eye doctor goes to see a physician anything, any medical thing, they're usually driven by one of the medical liaison office staffers. When these girls are going off to get abortions they are going to the planned parenthood facility in Hemet, going with a carload of girls and it even got so bad that the Planned Parenthood place was like, “What the hell is happening? This is just not right, we are seeing girls come in here every week and not only that sometimes we are seeing the same girls back again months later”. And they actually had to go to different Planned Parenthood centers all over the England Empire because they were creating a public relations situation by having so many abortions performed on church staff members. So, it really is. If you don't get an abortion then you are basically saying I don't want to be here, if you don't get the abortion you have to leave so, I mean...


DO: It's not an official policy, it's an unstated rule.

MH: No. It's an official policy that you cannot have kids while you're at the Int Base property. That is an official rule. There are no kids allowed, period. If you do have a child, then you get sent to some other facility where you no longer in the Sea Org and you become like a staff member and I think that the last person that actually did that was in 1992. It was a girl who got pregnant, held her ground and said “I'm having the baby”. I can't remember any other females from 1992- forward at the Int Base that actually didn't get an abortion and have their baby. We're talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of abortions not just like ten, twenty. We are talking about every week, girls going to the Planned Parenthood center getting abortions.


DO: Is there any way, we can investigate that particular, scenario?

MH: That's the thing with everything at the Int Base. That's the thing with the beatings. That's the thing with the abortions. That's the thing with the people being held there against their will. If you go there today and say "Hey, are you being held here against your will?", they are going to say “No, I love it here, it's a Paradise!”


DO: Right

MH: Because they really think that, there are people that really think that. Of course, as soon as you walk away, they think "Should I have fucking left? That was my one fucking chance that I could have gotten the hell outta here. But I didn't, oh". You never know. And you share these stories of people and the stories of beatings, and people say, "Well, why didn't you just leave? Why do these people stay there through all of this?" You've got to understand that you don't have your driver's license, Sea Org members get paid forty-six-dollars and twenty-cents a week. That's your pay. That's your weekly wage. Forty-six-dollars.

DO: That's not even, is that even legal?


MH: Because you're part of a church order, you are there in an ecclesiastical aspect, you're not there to make money. But, I got a document from the Social Security Administration that had my wages listed for the fifteen years that I was at Gold. The average yearly wage while I was at Golden Era Productions was nineteen-hundred and eighty-dollars, and I was working fifteen hours a day, seven days a week, fifty-two weeks out of the year. If you split those hours into that wage, I was making thirty-six cents an hour. How much money are their paying staff members who work at Golden Era Productions?


MH: Thirty-six cents an hour.

DO: That's slave labor.

MH: In 2008, the China-slave labor hourly rate was thirty cents an hour. So staff members at Golden Era Productions are getting six-cents more an hour than the national slave labor rate in China. So you don't have a lot of money, thats where that leads to. You don't have a lot of money. You don't have a car, just paying for gas would put you out of pocket right there. Insurance, maintenance, none of those things, you can't afford that. But for forty-six bucks you have to buy all your own personal supplies like soap, shampoo, deodorant, toothpaste, you want to buy a pack of cigarettes, its all coming out of that forty-six bucks. So, my wife and I went to Denny's for our anniversary, at four o'clock in the morning. That was our anniversary dinner, a half an hour at Denny's.


DO: Wow, what a celebration!

MH: That's what forty-six bucks gets you. So these people, they don't have a license, they don't have credit cards, they don't have any money saved up, so when you leave, that's a huge, huge decision that you're making. You're saying “I could be a bum if I walk out here now. I'm going to walk out these gates and I'm going to have to fight my way out at that, and I'm going to have to, I don't have any family or friends I can go to”. Some people do have at least relatives or friends who aren't in Scientology so they can go to those people and that's good, but not a lot of people are like that. These people who've been in the Sea Org for thirty years, they've lost all contact with any family or friends. And they might have even disconnected from them for one reason or another because they didn't support their decision to stay in Scientology.


MH: So that's what I try to explain to people when they say "Why didn't you just leave? Why did you stay there for fifteen years?" Well, that's why. You, what are you going to do? I don't even have a high school diploma.

DO: Wow, and then we know that David Miscavige doesn't have a high school diploma too. So all these things ..

MH: And I'd say ninety-percent of the kids that are brought up in the Sea Org or within the church, they don't have any sort of degrees or ...

DO: That's how they trap them, I'm sure.

MH: And the church uses that against you. They tell you, “If you leave here, you're going to be a janitor or a bum, or maybe if you're lucky you'll wind up flipping burgers somewhere. If you're lucky, you'll wind up flipping burgers”. So it's that kind of weight that's held over your head.


MH: When I left, I drove off with a motorcycle, a duffel bag and a suitcase full of my clothes. That's literally what I had to start a new life at thirty-two years of age. That was it. That was all my worldly possessions that I had.

DO: I just thought of something, so we know that they only make approximately forty-six dollars per week, but we know a lot of them are having abortions so who's paying for these abortions? Clearly the women don't have the money to do it.

MH: Umm, no, I think in most cases the girl has to pay for it, I think it's like a-hundred-and-fifty bucks, so they have to save three-or-four weeks worth of pay to be able to go and have an abortion.

DO: They force you to have it, and they don't even offer you any money to pay for it? It's coming out of your pocket, I assume there's no medical benefits, you can't get like birth control ...


MH: They can and they do provide that. That stuff in most cases its very low cost, if you go through Planned Parenthood the girls can get those types of things. But that's another misleading thing, when you sign up for the Sea Org they say that you're going to get all your medical taken care of and all your dental and all of your berthing and your food. You're told you're not going to need any money because they're going to provide you with everything you need. And then when you're actually in, the food sucks, you're on a list of about two-hundred people to get your teeth fixed, if you need new contacts you're on the list of three-hundred people that need new contacts. None of those things get taken care of, you just wait in line and you just go into atrophy and you say "Forget it, I'll just spend my own money and I'll get myself some contacts" or “I'll go buy some medicine or some rash cream” or its like...


MH: The simple things like that that you wouldn't think of right now in your day-to-day activities, those things are like gold to a Sea Org member. Literally, going to Jack-in-the-Box is the highlight of the month when working at Golden Era Productions. The fact that they've built a Jack-in-the-Box one mile from Golden Era Productions kept me there another two or three years because I had something to look forward to at the end of the week. That's the kind of thing that when you leave, you realize, that's one of those things. You think to yourself, “Why did I stay? Why did I stay, I can't believe I stayed that long”.

DO: It really sounds like its from another reality


DO: 'cause you're living in a state that I can't imagine, these people live in conditions and don't realize that there's got to be something better out there for them. That's so very sick. Do you think people like John Travolta, Tom Cruise, do they know their rank-and-file members are being treated in this way?

MH: I doubt it. I know that Tom more recently knows. Dave has been telling him about the things that people that worked at the Int Base have been doing to sabotage Dave's plans, and he's been telling Tom, "These guys are scumbags, they're not on-board". But I don't think he knows that these people are being paid thirty-six cents per hour, I doubt that he knows that.

DO: How about somebody tell him, maybe that's what's needed, 'cause a lot of people hate Tom Cruise now because of ... but he's just a guy.


DO: I don't think he's evil like David Miscavige. You knew him, do you think he's evil?

MH: Well, the more and more I see and hear Tom Cruise on TV and in the news, the more and more he has become like David Miscavige. When you hear him talking in that video, when you hear him being interviewed by somebody, he talks like David Miscavige, he has the same sorts of mannerisms, he literally is emulating David Miscavige, and it's scary, it's eerie in fact. And anyone who knows David Miscavige in fact will say the new Tom Cruise is a carbon copy of David Miscavige. So, I don't think he's necessarily evil, but he's definitely been duped into thinking what he's doing is the greatest good for the greatest number of people.


MH: It's sad that he's been convinced of that, but that's another thing. David Miscavige himself is the chairman the of the board of Religious Technology Center, of all the organizing boards of Scientology and all their organizations. RTC is not allowed, and it doesn't contain in any of its duties, management functions over the Scientology Organization. They're only supposed to police the use of the trademarks and the copyrights. It even says so on RTC's, Religious Technology Center's, website that RTC holds the ultimate ecclesiastical authority regarding the standard and pure application of L. Ron Hubbard's religious technology. It says RTC is not part of the management structure of the church, nor is it involved in the church's day-to-day affairs.


MH: Thats a quote off of their website. While that same quote appears on their website, David Miscavige micro-manages every single excruciating detail of international Scientology management on a day-to-day basis, hour-to-hour basis. Nothing goes on without him knowing about it or ordering it or him approving it or having been proposed to him. So its a total scam. He's not supposed to be doing that, that's part of the whole agreement that they got with the IRS, that they're going to have that and this, all these different things set out, and yet he's doing it. For some case there was a deposition done on David Miscavige in 1990, you can Google it, just Google "David Miscavige deposition". In that deposition he states that he's never once studied any courses in Scientology on management or administration.


MH: Never. But yet he's the leader of the church and he oversees all management. So there's so many things that if public Scientologists or parishioners of the church of Scientology knew the things that went on behind closed doors, they would leave, they would absolutely leave. There's just no way that all these things can go on and then not be real, I mean even the whole thing with disconnection, the church to this day says that they do not do disconnection.

DO: But they do!

MH: This girl, Corinne Pouw, the Public Relations person for the Office of Special Affairs, she actually states that they do not break families up, they work to strengthen them. So how is it that I haven't been able to speak to my mother or sister since 2005, when I was declared a Suppressive Person?


MH: Because they told them not to talk to me, but they don't practice disconnection? And even my wife's parents and her two sisters and her brother, who live ten minutes from us, have never seen their first grandchild or their second grandchild. When my wife gave birth to our first son I called her mom and said "We just had a baby boy, your first grandchild!". She stated "We can't talk to you" and hung up. That is how she responded to their first grandchild. But the church “doesn't practice disconnection”. It's just like one of those things. And Scientologists, the public Scientologists, they know the church practices disconnection.


MH: That's the first thing you learn when you get into Scientology, they make you do a course called the PTS/SP course which is Potential Trouble Source/Suppressive Person course. It basically says that if you're connected to somebody who is against Scientology, then they are a Suppressive Person. Because you are connected to them, you are a Potential Trouble Source because you are going to do things and say things that are going to make Scientology look bad 'cause you've got this person in your ear. So they have two handlings: you either handle the person or you disconnect from them, that's it. You learn that. They embed that into your brain on that course, that you either handle them or you disconnect. So every Scientologist is very well aware that they practice disconnection. It is one of the first things that you learn.


MH: So, for this woman Corinne Pouw to actually come out and say that they don't practice it is like, how can you do that? How could you possibly say that? It boggles my mind.

DO: Because she's lying!

MH: It's this bold-faced lie. There obviously wasn't just a world-wide picket called Reconnection because of some situation that doesn't exist. It's one of those things, so why aren't there people all over the world saying "Why can't I talk to my families if you don't do this?" It's just one of those things that doesn't make any sense.

DO: Speaking of world-wide protests, what do you think, as someone who's out now, about Anonymous' tactics and their strategies, and what advice would you have for them to continue putting pressure on the Church of Scientology?


MH: I think that Anonymous have been doing a great job. When they first came on the scene, I was very wary of how long it would last, I thought it would last a month or so. The fact that it's gone on this long, I couldn't be more pleased that what they've done and how they've done it and the way how organized they are. It's amazing that a bunch of people with no identities can do as much and accomplish as much as they have accomplished. Just as a funny sidenote, in the Sea Org, L. Ron Hubbard says that the most optimum state or condition to be in is a condition, a state of Fabian, which is very mysterious, you don't know where the person is or where he is going or when you will be there and there's kind of like this aura about them and they are very mysterious.


MH: You can't really do anything to the person because they are never anywhere, whenever you think they are here they are not because they are over here. L. Ron Hubbard talks about that and the Sea Org and about how the Sea Org is supposed to be fabian. Maybe when they were at sea that was possible but, more than anything, Anonymous is totally Fabian. They cannot be attacked, the church doesn't know who's running it, they don't know where they're at, if they find five guys and harass them another hundred show up. If they take down Mark Bunker's YouTube account, another ten videos go up. It's one of those things, they're like grabbing at shadows trying to find Anonymous, so I think if Anonymous just keeps doing what it's doing that and sticks it out, it's absolutely going to make or break Scientology.


MH: It's going to take them down faster than any of us could have ever hoped, with the things that they're doing. Just with the pure word that's being gotten out all over the world on a monthly basis is amazing.

DO: You advise to keep doing what they're doing. You don't see any flaws in their strategy, keep up the pressure, keep pushing back at them and keep reaching out to the media. I spoke to Andreas at Operation Clambake yesterday and he said it's really important that we treat the people gently because many of these people are afraid, they're scarred, maybe they want to leave but they don't really know what its going to be like in the outside world.


DO: Anonymous isn't known for being warm and fuzzy but I think they've really tried to tap into that aspect in the sense of, look, if this helps bring down the church we will sort of change up our strategy and be about as kind and loving as we can despite being a faceless organization.

MH: Yeah, and I think the other thing that Anonymous has done that is very good is they have attacked real issues that are tangible, like the Disconnection thing and Lisa McPherson, it's real, it happened, there's some beef to it. So long as they keep picking things that absolutely are things that have been happening, then there is no way that they can go wrong, there's no way. You keep pushing forward, don't lose, the last thing that Andreas said was how important it is to not be outspoken and to not be discouraged because it could take time.


DO: It could take, who knows how long. Andreas would not give a time line, he said we've had enough things happen that no one should be frustrated that it's not going to eventually happen but it's just a matter continuing, dedicate yourself. Look at people who, the old guard, who've been at it for years, Andreas did it for twelve years. Three months is probably a drop in the bucket when you think about what other people have invested in terms of time and money and energy in fighting the church of Scientology. People like you are so important because before people started coming out, all you heard were rumors and hear-say, but you were willing to step forward, speak out, tell us about it, and it's so essential for fueling the fire that grows within Anonymous themselves. Anonymous is just anyone that sees that the Church of Scientology have done illegal and abusive things and that all we're asking...


DO: Cults have been around for a long time and eventually they get taken down because they do enough horrible things to people. Where do you think David Miscavige is now, I mean physically, I've heard he's floating around on the Free Winds in the Caribbean, I've heard he's holed up in Hemet, where do you think, based on your experience, David is holed up right now?

MH: Well, they have an event coming up in May, and that's the anniversary of Dianetics, the May 9th event, so most likely he's either at the Int Base or he's on the Free Winds preparing to do that event, that's what he's doing. Every three months they have these events. They have one in March , in May, June, September and then October and then January, and December 31st.


MH: So a bulk of his time is spent preparing for those events and spinning recent events in their favor and making up all kind nippy things like about how the church has been expanding and how everything has been all rosy and happy even though all those Scientology parishioners have just been seeing Scientology dragged, their name, dragged through the mud on a daily basis in the media. So that's what he spends a lot of his time doing. I know for a fact that, on the first or second picket, David Miscavige himself insisted on driving by and seeing what this picket was all about.

OD: So he's on-land as far as you're concerned, he's not hiding, he's not running from us, he has every right to go back because, does he think Anonymous is going to give up, is that his hope?


MH: I think so. They've got all these videos that they're putting up on their site. It's funny though, Anonymous has really dictated where they've gone with their approach on getting new people in. Their entire website is in that same kind of video-feel, that's how we're educating people, with videos. Up until three months ago they had just a labyrinth of sites, the World-Tech sites, with very few videos, maybe ten videos throughout all of their websites. Now they have videos everywhere, they've been shooting videos full time, they're shooting videos right now so that they can just bombard people with videos and all these banner ads linking to their site and everything.


MH: Anonymous has dictated that they do that because Anonymous has so many videos every day about Scientology, there's no way they can keep up. So I don't think David Miscavige is hiding but I think he's definitely concerned. I think that he definitely sees this as a major threat and its definitely not helping them get anything else done that they're supposed to be working on before Anonymous showed up. I think that's another great thing about Anonymous, is that they're taking up so much time of the Church's that the Church is not going to be able to carry out all their expansion plans and all their programs, all the activities that they were planning on, because every month they've got to shut down for a protest. All around the world!


MH: That's a guaranteed day where no-one's going to be doing anything, when Anonymous shows up, and that's every month. And that's a big deal, a big deal to the Church of Scientology.

OD: That's a good point, I spoke to another person who used to be a Scientologist who I talk to reasonably frequently, they said the exact same thing: every day that Anonymous keeps them out of an Org is money they are losing and work that is not being done. So, these flash raids are actually a pretty good strategy because they're not expecting them, they pop up all of a sudden, draw people's attention to Scientology, freaks the Scientologist out, not that anyone wants to upset to upset the people, its not the brick-and-bond members that anyone is after. From my perspective it's one person, it's David Miscavige, he is the one person I want to see rot to death. Do you think that will happen, Marc?


MH: I think if enough people come out and if enough like Jenna and Jason, these people that are coming out and saying "This is what happened, this is what went on", if enough people like that actually come out and say that, then that is also going to prod other people to come. That's a big thing right now, it's almost becoming safe for someone to speak out against Scientology, and more and more people are comfortable with doing that, 'cause that's another thing. When you've worked for the church, you are made very aware what they do to people that defect. They definitely make life miserable for those people. So when you leave, that's the last thing that you want to do, come out saying all the things that happened.


MH: And I think that for a lot of reasons why David Miscavige hasn't already been brought up with physical abuse charges is because by the time somebody comes out and says "Yeah, he beat the crap out of me", four years have gone by and what can we do? And everybody who was there is not going to say anything, they're all going to say, "No, David Miscavige didn't do anything, I was there, there was twenty of us there and nothing happened." So it's a little bit hard, but if enough people come out and say "Yeah, he did this, yeah he did that, yeah he did this", it means you can't deny that when you've got hundreds of people saying that thats what happened. It becomes almost like, "Hey man, whats the deal? You're beating people up!" And if anybody is doing it, it's him. It's not like everybody at the Int Base beats everybody up. No, it's David Miscavige. He's the only one who gets away with it.


MH: Other people might get messed up or get in a little fight with somebody but the next day it's all over and it's fine, but David Miscavige is literally hitting people, smacking people, and you can't do anything. You just have to sit there and take it. So, I think that if all this keeps up, that there is hope that he'll be dealt with and justice will be done.

DO: I'm sure that will be a sweet day because there's nothing like being humil..., from your picture you're a pretty broad guy, I mean you don't look like a weakling who's going to take a smack down from a five-foot-two man who -- credit to David that he works out, he's not scrawny -- but he's little and you don't look little...

MH: No, I'm definitely not little, I don't miss many meals so...

DO: I don't even mean it like that, you look like a broad strong guy that would beat the hell out of somebody like David Miscavige coming up to you, treating you like that.


DO: It seems not right to me, you're a dignified grown man and you're just being smacked around, that's just not right, so here's my question. Do you think if enough Scientologists got together, I mean you and the staff and whoever, and came up with a Class Action Suit, do you think that would be an effective means, or do you think it's still too crazy to do something like that?

MH: I don't know, you gotta dig that the Church of Scientology, International Management sends about a hundred thousand dollars a week to the Office of Special Affairs to conduct legal battles, that is in-house attorneys, private investigators, whatever. That's a lot of money. A hundred thousand dollars a week, so, that's the kind of thing that I myself, when I hear people saying like that...


MH: "We're gonna get a bunch of people together and we're gonna do this", I kind of think, ok, it seems plausible, if you had enough people, and it was an open and shut case, then maybe that would work. But at the same time, they killed a woman and got away with it.

DO: You're talking about Lisa McPherson?

MH: Yeah, that's a whole 'nother interview. And I'll probably have somebody call you. But I know people that were there in Clearwater that cleaned out different offices or rooms where she was in after that incident happened, so there would be zero evidence left behind on what happened. When that case was going on, David Miscavige was up day and night reading through medical books trying to come up with some way that the condition she had was totally disrelated to what they were subjecting her to.


MH: I mean, he was up day and night. He had medical books. He was on the internet. He wasn't sleeping for weeks, trying to figure this out. He HIMSELF was doing that, because it was looking really really bleak that this thing was not going to go their way. But somehow they managed to do whatever they did and settle, or whatever happened, and it went away.

DO: I heard a rumor Marc, and I don't know... and I would love to have you back. Believe me. We've got people clamoring for the information and they really want to know it and you seem to have it. But I heard a rumor about Lisa, Lisa's case, that people were speculating that she wasn't even actually held at Fort Harrison and maybe she was held at ... I don't know if it's a Best Western or at some other building that is kinda off-site there in Clearwater. And there's rumors about a locker or whatever that means. It's obviously a rumor.


DO: But they thought it was really odd that she had cockroach bites on her and this was supposed to be like, a Five-Star hotel. There were no cockroaches in any of the other rooms. Why is it that she's in this Five-star whatever, it's the mecca of Scientology, this high-end place for worldwide people to come visit. She's been bitten by bugs and she's been dehydrated. And this whole embolism thing sounds like ... probably came from not being moved enough if you're in a vegetative, comatose state. Do you think there's more to this story of legal actions than what we heard in the news?

MH: Oh absolutely. Absolutely.


MH: Not to go off on a total wild thing but all of the people that were involved in that from RTC to the Flag Land Base Staff, the people that were auditing her, the people that were overseeing her auditing, every single one of those people that was anywhere involved with that: as soon as that case was settled, they were whisked off and made to disappear. The girl that was in Religious Technology Center in Clearwater was sent to Australia to do the Rehabilitation Project Force there. Australia! Because they wanted her far, far, far away, never to be seen or heard from again, because she had involvement and knew information regarding the Lisa McPherson case. Her name is Ricky Yensen, by the way. Or Ricky Galviotti, or Ricky Drake, whichever name she uses now.


MH: There's absolutely more than has been told and more that's been heard that went on. I'll have this other fella that I know contact you, who was there in Clearwater and was working with Marty Rathbun when this was going down. Marty Rathbun was in Religious Technology Center at the time as well, he was like David's henchman. Cleaning up all this messy stuff. So there's absolutely more more to this story.

DO: Do you think this case could be re-opened if somebody would be willing to come forward with new details that there was a cover up involved?

MH: Well, it's the same type of thing. You've got to get enough people that all know the same thing that are all willing to put their neck on the line and persevere through whatever the church is gonna throw at them. It's that same kind of scenario. There's a girl by the name of Stacy Moxon or Stacy Meyers, a girl that worked at the Int base.


MH: They said she committed suicide [MH meant to say "They said she had an accident" — R. Hill]. She was electrocuted to death in a high voltage transformer vault. Well, somebody told me she left a note, so it wasn't actually an accident. The church makes it, saying basically it was an accident. She went in to save a squirrel or something. Believe me, nobody at the Int Base is worried about any squirrels, Okay?

DO: Right.

MH: But that's the way they played it off. As she was this nature-loving girl that wanted to make sure the squirrel wasn't hurt and then she slipped on some oil. No. She went in there and grabbed the vault. That's what happened.

DO: Why did that happen? Was it an accident?


MH: Because she wasn't allowed leave the property to go see her husband and her family. She wasn't being allowed to go. She was being held captive there, like every other person at the Int Base. But she was new to the Int Base and she'd only been there for a few months. She was like, "I can't take this anymore", and she even threatened and told other people that she was depressed and she was separated from her husband who worked in Los Angeles. Her own father is one of the lead litigation attorneys for the church, Ken Moxon. And he still fights for the church even though that happened to his daughter. He doesn't even know that there was a note. But, but he still fights for the church. His daughter is dead. Because she wasn't allowed to go down and see them. And anybody that was connected with that, anybody who made the press releases, anybody who was there, all of those people are gone.


MH: They are no longer there. Ken Hoden, at the time, was the public relations officer for Golden Era Productions. Shortly thereafter he was shipped off, so that if any further inquiries were done, he's gone. “We don't know what happened, Ken knew, and Ken's no longer here." It's that kind of thing, I mean, when something goes down they do their due diligence to mop up and make sure there is no snail-trail left behind. So, they are well-versed in this arena of litigation and all the black ops. I've had private investigators following me around on four or five different occasions.

DO: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about fair-gaming. Recently, or has it been a while?

MH: Two weeks ago.


DO: Two weeks ago. How do you pick these people out? I mean, I'm very paranoid. I would notice if somebody was doing something, let me tell you.

MH: Well, when you see the same vehicle in your rear-view mirror four or five different times in a two or three hour period, that's not a coincidence. But that's what they do, they try to intimidate you. They've been doing that to Jenna for the past two weeks. They've been doing it to Dallas for the last month. Somebody called Jenna's husband, Dallas, where he was working and said "I'm a retired police officer and I have a police scanner in my vehicle and in my home.


MH: There's been chatter on the radio about you for the last month or few months, and people have been following you all over town". He called Dallas, out of the blue, because he heard the company they mentioned, where Dallas was at. So this guy called the company and asked for Dallas. And told them all the stuff that was going on 'cause this retired police officer is hearing all these people on the radio saying "Okay, he's going here, he's going there". This is a few days ago this happened.

DO: How can they get away with that? Don't they realize that when you are dealing with high profile people like that, what, are they going to try and hurt him? What are some suggestions for people to prevent ... Do you think they are at the point now where they are going to hurt people?

MH: No, what I think they do is they try and set people up. And they try and catch them doing something that they can then use against them. They've done that with a lot of people in the past.



DO: They cut us off, but everything gets saved in the archives. So it's ok. People can't hear us... We can go on talking. But we'll wrap it up. I know your voice is starting to go. I want you to be careful, 'cause I know you have family and you are concerned. Certainly, the things you have said today have been explosive! And they are very interesting. It is possible that some what you sent me can be used in relation to this archived audio cast?

MH: Sure, absolutely.

DO: Do you mind that getting posted up there? Because what happens is it helps with search terms and then people can find the information and I can associate it with, "Hey, you want to know more about this? Listen to the radio broadcast of it." So I wanted to ask you first if you thought that was okay.

MH: That's totally fine with me. Totally fine.


DO: I gotta have you back! We gotta plan something. I know you're busy and you got a job and all sorts of things going on ... but let's ... I want you to think about some other things you want to talk about, and you and I let's plan another show because I think it was very popular. There's 70, 80, almost 90 people in the chat room. I'll look back at the archives. And this is in the middle of the day!

MH: Yeah.

DO: And I know the archive I had with, a week ago on a Sunday night, we had almost a thousand people listening to just the archive itself. So that's like 2000 people out there listening to the show. So, this will be popular. And I'm gonna promote it because I know you've a lot of good things to say. And I cannot thank you enough. You've been just a tremendous guest and you're very articulate, you know a lot, you're well-informed and you came really prepared. So, I can't thank you enough Marc! And we'll be in touch.

MH: Yeah, and if there's anything you need just let me know. Yeah, if I can think of some more things...


MH: Like I was telling you earlier I'm trying to put a book together but there's so many things that I could tell you that you would just never believe. Like, things that I'm telling you right now those are the lightest, the easiest things that you might think actually happened. Most of the things that I could tell you, you just wouldn't believe. You just wouldn't. You would just say "You must be lying, there's no way that could have happened!" It's that bad.

DO: There's some questions I have that I think you could be of help, but I would rather not discuss them now on live streaming audio. We'll talk...

MH: [coughing]

DO: You poor thing go get some cough medicine. I know you got stuff to do this weekend, have a safe weekend, and please feel better, okay? And I'll be in touch with you Marc.

MH: Good, I will talk to you later, thank a lot Dawn.

DO: Give the kids a kiss!

MH: I will, bye-bye!

DO: Bye-bye!