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Marc Headley's second interview
9 May 2008 ver 1.0
Interview by Dawn Olsen (DO) of Glosslip.com and Marc Headley (MH), ex-Scientologist
Transcript produced by: it's.an0nym0us, Kaminonymous and
DO: Good evening Glosslip Radio listeners, I am Dawn Olsen of Glosslip.com and thank you very much for being here in our special show. We’re normally on Sunday nights but since there’s so much to talk about we’ve had to schedule so many shows for different nights and I appreciate you guys just playing it by ear with the schedule. I want to say hello to everybody in the chat room, and please to feel free to participate in the chat room. I will be checking that out. I think Marc, I don’t know if he’s logged in or if he can see that, but we’ll certainly be fielding any questions that we can. Again, tonight’s interview guest is Marc Headley. This is our second interview with Marc and we’re very excited to have him. I want to point out that his previous show, which was only 15 days ago, we’ve had about 12,000 people listen to that radio show.
DO: I don’t know what the regular programs on BlogTalkRadio get but I’ve been told by longtimers that that is a tremendous number of people listening to the show, by BlogTalkRadio standards. So I am so glad to see this information being disseminated. Without further ado, welcome Marc! Thank you again for coming and joining us tonight.
MH: Thank you for having me.
DO: You sound better, I assume you have recovered from your cold?
MH: Oh yeah, I’m back to normal. Back to batteries. I’m glad that that’s the case for this show.
DO: Yes. So you were sick for a while and that brought up a concern of ours about the Freewinds. Now I’m sure you’re well aware of the recent news that has come out that the Freewinds, Scientology's cruise ship where they do a lot of their upper OT levels and have special events on the cruise ship.
DO: Many celebrities themselves have attended events there. It was recently discovered that there was blue asbestos on the ship during some restoration work there while it was dry-docked in Curacao. This isn’t actually breaking news because Lawrence Woodcraft, several years ago, wrote up a affidavit saying that he had seen the blue asbestos and informed Scientology staff. Were you on the ship at all?
MH: Yeah, actually, I was on the ship for about two weeks in 1988, that was before I was actually in the Sea Organization. Then after I joined the Sea Organization, I went there several times over a period of fifteen years because that’s one of the venues where the international Scientology events are held.
MH: For the June 6th event, called the Maiden Voyage Anniversary Event, there were several times where I went back there for several weeks at a time.
MH: We worked below decks in those areas where we were making the sets and getting everything prepared for the event. So when I had this last little bout I actually had about 80% of the symptoms of the kind of disease that you get from the blue asbestos, so I had to go in and get checked out. We’re still waiting to hear, but it looks like everything is normal now. Hopefully we’re past all that.
DO: Right. You and I had talked about that, we were worried about you there. Yes, mesothelioma is the disease. It’s a cancer that is a rare form and is caused directly by the blue asbestos, the fibers getting into your lungs and creating tumors in your lungs. It’s treatable but not curable.
DO: Ultimately is a short and painful death for those who have it. So I truly hope that the outcome is positive for you. I know you were concerned, although you seem to think that everything is okay. What would you recommend to anyone who’s been on the Freewinds and perhaps been exposed to blue asbestos, since you’ve gone through this process?
MH: Well, I talked to Lawrence Woodcraft about it a bit as well, and based on what he told me a large portion of the ship that was covered with the blue asbestos was on the C-deck where they used to store the cars when it was a ferry before the Scientologists had bought the ship. C-deck is where all of the crew on the ship are berthed and also where the lower-level cabins for public, when parishioners go there, that’s where their berthing is. That’s where their rooms are, they’re on the C-deck.
MH: So really, if you are an ex-staff member that ended up working at the Freewinds, if you’re an ex-parishioner, if you’re a current parishioner, and you are displaying any of the symptoms, you should absolutely get yourself checked out. It’s a piece of cake. It takes a day here, a day there, and they can find out within a few weeks if you’ve got any problems. Then if you do, unfortunately, get diagnosed with it, get a hold of an attorney. There’s lines of them queued up waiting to represent you right now. That’s what I would recommend. I know that if the church can, they are definitely going to pay their way out of this and try to make it go away.
MH: But if enough people speak out and enough people harass the company in Curacao not to let the ship back in the water, then we can keep that thing up in the air in dry-dock and then maybe eventually just sink it.
DO: Yeah, we can torpedo it. Are there people on the ship now, there were rumors and news reports that they sent some special teams to do some cleaning. I don’t know how familiar, you’re out of the Org and you may not be aware of what’s going on...
MH: No, I actually got a report last night. There absolutely are people working on the ship right now as we speak. Whatever area’s been sealed off, it’s not the whole ship, it’s a portion of it. So there are people there working like everything is normal. I guess time will tell what happens with this.
MH: But yeah, as of last night there were people eating, sleeping, working on the ship getting it ready for finish-up on the renovations. So we've got to follow through and make sure this thing gets wide-spread attention so that they shut it down.
DO: Well, it seems to be an on-going story so if you hear anything let us know.
DO: There are a lot of things we want to get to and we have a short amount of time, so I don’t want to dwell on that too much. We have it covered on Glosslip and lots of some mainstream sites have covered it, Radar, Defamer? But there have been some other sites. Do a Google search if you want more information on that. In the meantime we have a big protest coming up tomorrow. It’s the fourth of Anonymous’ monthly protests against Scientology.
DO: I know you’re a supporter of Anonymous, although you are obviously not anonymous in the sense that we know who you are. Tomorrow’s protest is going to be highlighting the process of Fair Game, a process of Scientology. Can you explain to us what you know about Fair Gaming?
MH: Absolutely. The whole subject of Fair Game came up when L. Ron Hubbard was writing up all the different issues, procedures and policies for Scientologists. People who were in Scientology and then turned against Scientology, or even people that just were antagonistic towards Scientology, were deemed Suppressive Persons.
MH: That’s probably on the founding policies of the church, that anyone who is against Scientology, that publicly speaks out against Scientology, is a Suppressive Person. That’s where you get the whole disconnection thing and the Fair Game. Those are all attributes of this Suppressive Person thing. A lot of people have even asked me, have I ever been Fair Gamed? Absolutely. There’s an SP, a Suppressive Person, that’s a friend of mine, and he hasn’t seen or talked to his mother in years because he’s been declared a Suppressive Person and his mom is still a Scientologist. He was called in by OSA, which is the Office of Special Affairs, which is the Church’s investigative branch. They called him and said “We want to meet with you and we need to speak to you about some stuff.”
MH: They met up in a restaurant in L.A. and this girl from OSA, Kirsten Cattaneo, that’s her name. She told him that if they could dig up, create some kind of dirt or any kind of blackmail material on me, and if he could help her on that, since we were good friends, then they’d let him see his mom again for that information. That’s just one instance. I’ve had private investigators and OSA staff members camped outside my house in vehicles outside my house for weeks at a time. Just out there. Just hanging out. Just watching. Looking who comes and visits me, where I go. I’ve been followed in my vehicle. I’ve been tailed on numerous occasions. My trash bins have been gone through. Three days ago I got a knock on the door in the afternoon, my wife and I were both home with my two children – I have a two year old son and I have a nine week old infant – we got a knock on the door and it was Child Protection Services.
MH: They had gotten an anonymous tip on their hotline that our two children were being endangered, that there was a child endangerment situation at our house. Even the guy when he came was like “What’s the deal? I don’t even get why somebody would do this?” He was more concerned for us when he left, that somebody would do this, because obviously there was no situation. The children were totally fine and there was no evidence of it. The person had given them no evidence, they just “feared” or whatever they said, that there was a situation. When he left, we knew. We knew. Okay, that’s the cult, that’s what they do.
MH:When they can’t dig up some dirt on you, when they can’t get some solid thing, they harass you. They'll have people camped outside, they’ll go to your place of work, they’ll go to your neighbors, it’s crazy like that. And of course, the hotline, I shouldn’t say anonymous, I should just say the cult called them, but unfortunately that’s the way a lot of things are set up, is that the hotline can take the call and then there’s no recourse, there’s no way you can track down that person who called because the system protects those people. But those are just run-of-the-mill everyday examples that I know of that “Fair Game” has been used against me. There’s probably other things I don’t know of and other people.
MH: I mean, they do the normal stuff. Anybody who was a Scientologist on my MySpace page was called, every single one of them was called, pulled into their local Church of Scientology and told to take me off their friends list from MySpace. It’s like that kind of thing. And I’m like, to those people, “Well, you’re obviously not my friend, so take me off. Please!” It’s stupid stuff.
DO: The same thing happened to Jenna. I think she complained about the exact same thing.
MH: Yeah. Well, it all started with us. She was told “You better take Marc off your MySpace page because he’s an SP” and she hadn’t been declared a Suppressive Person. I don’t think to this day she’s been declared a Suppressive Person. She basically sent out a bulletin saying “Hey, I’m not taking anybody off my page, if you don’t like it, get off my friends-list” or whatever.
MH: I don’t even really care about that stuff, but the Child Protection Services, that was just ... they always have to stick that, to turn the knife a little bit more. Every time you think “Okay, yeah, they’re not gonna do anything”, then they do something like that and it just gets me all riled up again and ready, where I’m like “Yeah, I’m gonna do that radio interview now. Thank you very much.”
DO: Right, it has the opposite effect because at this point what good would being silent do? You and I have talked about this, it gets to the point where you’re so out there, all you can do is continue to push forward because you know it’s the right thing to do.
DO: You’ve already exposed yourself as a Suppressive Person. This person who’s going to tell the truth. This person who is going to relay this information to the public, because it really is a public service thing to do.
DO: You’re preventing people from joining the cult and you’re trying to help people who are in get themselves out.
MH: Totally. And the other things, like even when I was on the show two weeks ago, I told you about Tommy Davis and how wherever he was and whatever he was doing, he’s been pulled back into the fray again and powering back up to be a spokesperson again. And sure enough, he’s on CNN the other day. And you think “Okay, what are they gonna say? They gotta at least somehow spin this thing”, and they’re not even spinning it anymore. They are just blatantly telling lies. Like Tommy Davis said on this CNN show “There’s no such thing as Disconnection”, I was like, “How can you say that dude?” When the guy on the show keeps asking him, “Well tell us what Disconnection is”. The guy asked him like three or four times and Tommy Davis never answered the question.
MH: Then the guy when on to another question. But even right now, if you go on to Amazon, there’s a book, it’s called “Introduction to Scientology Ethics”, there’s a chapter, not a paragraph, not a sentence, not one little thing, it’s a chapter called “Disconnection”. It’s an introductory book and it’s got a whole chapter on Disconnection. If you go to the Religious Technology Center website, there’s a policy listed right on their website which says “Matters of RTC Concern”. I think if you go to “Ethics” it says “Suppressive Persons and Disconnection.” It’s listed right on their website, the policy letter written by L. Ron Hubbard, how to disconnect from people. Even in the book, “Introduction to Scientology Ethics”, there’s a chapter on disconnection. There’s like fourteen other references in the book that talk about disconnection.
MH: But here, the public spokesperson for Scientology says on national TV that they do not practice disconnection, even though it’s one of their founding tenants of the cult. So it’s just insane.
DO: Well yes. It’s on their website. It can be proven in so many ways. I was shocked at how much blatant dissembling he was doing. I asked my husband about this, how do people lie in the face of reality? He said “They’re just used to it. That’s all they know. That’s all they’re used to. They can’t be truthful, so therefore you just do what’s natural to you.” So Tommy was just doing what’s natural to him.
MH: But you’ve got to dig, it’s also that Tommy is basically being run directly by David Miscavige.
MH: He’s being told what to say and what to do. If he says the wrong thing and that many people are watching, then he’s toast. He already went through this. He was doing this BBC thing with John Sweeney and Tommy was emulating David Miscavige. If you see that one video where he’s like “Okay. You know, you got it. Right here. Right now”, and he just goes wacko on John Sweeney, that’s David Miscavige personified. That is David Miscavige. So he did what David Miscavige would have done. Then of course it was a huge flap and Tommy got nuked and he disappeared. He’s been gone off the radar since that John Sweeney thing, and now they don’t have anybody. Mike Rinder blew, he’s gone. And he’s not coming back. Some people were like “He’s still in”. No no. He’s gone. He’s selling Toyotas in Williamsburg, Virginia right now. He’s already got a girlfriend and he’s moved on, he’s done.
MH: But of course they’re not going to acknowledge that, because then everyone’s going to go “Wait a minute, this guy that’s been yakking for you guys, and telling all these lies, he left? Like, what the hell!” They’re not going to acknowledge that. So now they don’t have anybody else, so they pulled Tommy, dusted him off and put some makeup on the dude. Look at the guy in the BBC interview, he looks like whatever, he’s doing whatever he’s doing. You see him now, the dude has got bags under his eyes, he looks like he hasn’t slept in a week, which he probably hasn’t or he’s getting two or three hours a night, and he’s shacked up at OSA. And they’re trying to figure out what they’re going to do about all this. That’s the other thing you’ve got to know, the people that are in the Church, they don’t know what’s going on. They’re not allowed to get on the internet, they’re not allowed to watch TV, and they’re not allowed to read magazines, so they only know what they’re being told.
MH: All these things that are happening and they have no idea, they don’t know what this Anonymous thing is about. To them it’s just like, “Where do these guys come from?” There used to be these SP pickets, you know, the Old Guard. Maybe five or six guys would show up, or maybe twenty guys would show up. Now it’s like, “Well, where did a thousand SPs come from? How are there a thousand SPs who show up every month? And where are they coming from? And how come we don’t know any of them? And how come none of them have ever been in an Org?” To them it’s just mind-boggling to the Church. But at the Int Base, they’re taking all these videos that are on every week, every day, on E! or Entertainment Tonight or whatever, they are recording all that footage. They are re-editing it and re-recording the VOs for these little segments. And they play it to Int Base staff, like it’s good. Like “Look at all the things that Tom Cruise was on this week.”
MH: They play all these clips edited together with Tom Cruise here, and Tom Cruise there, and Katie and Tom. When I left the Int Base in 2005 I truly thought that Tom Cruise was the biggest movie star in the world and that every time he opened his mouth he said “Scientology” and everybody went “Yay! Yay! Tom Cruise!” That’s what I though, because that’s what they’re tell you. Every few weeks they’re playing all these videos. The staff have no clue what’s going on and they only know what they’re being told. And, like I was saying earlier, OSA’s the legal and investigative branch of the Church, they’re basically like the GO 2.0. That’s what they are. The Guardian’s Office, present day. The Guardian’s Office, for those of you who don’t know, was the branch of the Church that was the legal and investigative unit of the Church earlier on, that was actually prosecuted for infiltrating government agencies.
MH: It was the biggest infiltration of the U.S. Government that’s ever occurred in the history of the U. S. Government. It was done by the Church of Scientology. So OSA is the new tweaked and tuneup version of the Guardian’s Office. OSA International is the place on Hollywood Boulevard where most of the pickets have been, on Hollywood and Ivar. They have these little OSA offices in every single continent of the world and in every single organization of the world they have what’s call a Director of Special Affairs. That person is a staff member of OSA who reports up to them and tells them what’s happening in their local area. It’s usually the spokesperson or the spokeshole in that city or whatever, that’s usually the OSA person.
MH: That’s how they run their whole little network. Any report or anything they get or anyone that attacks Scientology, it gets reported up to OSA International and they feed it into their computer system. They have a pretty sophisticated system of where any report gets fed into this database and they can cross-check and do whatever analysis of how many other SPs that person’s connected to, who’s his relatives, where does he live, what areas, and they do a whole thing. But I don’t know how they can keep up anymore. There’s so much stuff coming out everyday. When I was at Golden Era, every week they would put together this report.
MH: It was called the Press Update. Any Scientology related article in a magazine or a newspaper or a TV thing would all get put into this pack. Every week that would to up to David Miscavige and other high executives at the Int Base so they could see what people were talking about. Anything that was bad or had mentions of Xenu in it, or anything like that, was in a separate package that only went to David Miscavige because the general staff, even most of the general staff in Sea Org and Scientology, have never heard of Xenu. You don’t find out about that until you get on the higher OT levels, and most staff don’t study or get auditing so they never get up there anyway. So that’s how David Miscavige keeps up with all this stuff, is through the Press Update and whenever he gets on the internet. Dave’s office does spend more time, more recently as well as in the last ten years.
MH: His office, his staff and the Office of Special Affairs, they dedicated more time than anything to dealing with defectors and Suppressives than anything else that’s happening. And yeah, that’s what happens.
MH: Yeah. Dave is OT7. That’s another great thing I’ve got to tell you, is that there’s a deposition on the internet. It’s David Miscavige. If you just type in “David Miscavige deposition”. That dude has never done a course in Scientology management. He’s never studied the L. Ron Hubbard teachings, a course on how to manage Scientology organizations. That was as of 1990. Well, I was at the base from 1990 to 2005 and that was the last thing he ever would have done, been on course doing some study.
MH: But the other thing is that in 1993, which coincidentally was when the whole IRS decision came down – or whatever you want to call it when they did the blackmail on the commissioner of the IRS and he gave them tax exemption – but when he was right in the thick of that IRS thing he broke is leg playing basketball at the Int Base. His auditor who was in Religious Technology Center, blew. She blew. She got the hell out of there. Because she knew she was gonna get thrown under the bus for him breaking his leg because she committed ‘out-tech’, or whatever, on him. And he hasn’t been in session since. That was in 1993.
MH: This is a significant thing, later on in the mid-90s a lot of the level of OT7 was revised and all the people who had been on that level had to redo all their studies and everything to be able to do the new auditing. Anyway, he is the old OT7, he hasn’t even done the new OT7. So he’s totally the pot calling the kettle black, he’s number one on that list. David Miscavige did play basketball in the 90’s, and not good on the dunk shot there.
MH: They do spend an insane amount of time on dealing with all of this, all the people that have gotten out. And that is the main reason for, and that’s the main advantage to them, of this whole disconnection policy.
MH: Because what happens is you have somebody who’s in the Church and then they leave. Well, of course they’re going to talk trash about the Church because they left for a reason. They didn’t leave because they were like “Oh, I love it, but I’m just not gonna do it.” No. They’re like, they know it’s bullshit and they’re going to get out. So the Church says “Okay, if you say anything bad about Scientology, you’re never gonna speak to the rest of your family that are in Scientology again”. And, in most cases, when one person’s in, there’s usually another or all of them are in. So they keep that person in check because if they same something then they’re not going to be able to talk to their loved ones. That’s the big thing with the people, a lot of people that have left the Int Base.
MH: L. Ron Hubbard wrote a policy, or what they call “Advices”, which to them it might as well be a policy, because they adhere to it like it’s the Bible. He said “If anyone leaves the Int Base for any reason whatsoever, they are to be declared”. So even if you say, “I’m gonna leave, I’m gonna route-out and I’m gonna get two years of sec-checking before I leave,” which is what you can do at any other Church location and then just leave and not get declared, if you do that at the Int Base, when it’s all done and over with, after they do all the sec-checking, everything else, then they just declare you anyway. So you’re declared a Suppressive Person no matter what if you ever leave the Int Base, if you’re a staff member there. It’s just period. You get declared. So then, a person who gets declared and leaves, they don't want to say anything bad because then they'll never get to speak to their family again.
MH: And the church has this thing, while if you do get declared you can do all these steps and you can pay back your Freeloader Debts and all these other things, and if you do all those things then you might be able to speak to your family again. But if you talk trash, then that's it, guaranteed you're never going to speak to them again. So that’s why you have a lot of these people that are out but they don't say anything, because they are connected or they have some family member that they love and they still want to talk to and they know that if they say anything that they're never going to get to speak to that person again. So, that's how they use the disconnection thing. And they use that at all levels of the church, and that's the way they keep people quiet. I'm looking back at the chat here to see if there's anything else, but I'm not going to talk about Tom and Katie or anything [laughs].
DO: One of the things we talked about that seems very interesting, you were saying that essentially at this point there are at least one or two Anonymous for every actual Scientologist.
MH: Well that's the thing about Anonymous, Anonymous has basically circumvented any policy that L. Ron Hubbard wrote on how to deal with critics of the church. All the Black Ops, all the Fair Game tactics that the church usually uses, Anonymous kind of gets around all those things. Because if you don't know who somebody is, it’s pretty hard to have a PI camp out at their house, or talk to the people they work with. That's why at first they were trying to out the Anonymous guys, that's the only thing they know how to do is say, “Anon5032 is Jeff Whatever”, that's the only thing that the church knows how to do.
MH: They won't do anything unless L. Ron Hubbard wrote how to do it somehow. So Anonymous throws a wrench into their whole system and the whole OSA network. They don't know what to do. The other thing is that the Anonymous guys are so effective, the church is actually trying to find out what Anonymous is doing to figure out what they should do. The churches have had this Scientology website for ten years and it's been the same exact website since day one. Anonymous shows up, and Anonymous starts doing videos and they start doing YouTube and all that. The church never ever was on YouTube, never ever had all these different videos or whatever, and the next thing you know, boom, they scrap their entire website that they've had since day one and then they put up all these videos and they try and make it this cool thing and they get rid of all the heavy text and all that.
MH: Because they're like “Anonymous is reaching these guys through video, so we need to get on and do videos”. It's like literally, up until now, no one told them because L. Ron Hubbard never said to do a video and put it on the internet, so why would they ever do it? But now, Anonymous is so effective so they're like “Well, damn, we gotta get some videos on our site, we've got to fight back, you know, with, you know, the same kind of weapons Anonymous is using”. You've got to realize, Scientology has been doing these international events and conventions for thirty years, and basically every few months they have a get together, it's in one major location and then they satellite that event, or they now video the event and it gets edited and post-produced and sent out in DVDs so all those little satellite little churches, and those areas call people in and they watch the video and “Yay yay yay”.
MH: They've been doing that for thirty years and they spend about, I did the budgets for years for those events and the international events put on was $400,000 - $500,000 to do one of those events. And these things happen like every two or three months and there are six major events that happen. You've got the New Years event, that happens usually at the end of the year, and they do that almost always at the Shrine or in Clearwater. Then the March 13 event which is L. Ron Hubbard's birthday, they have that one in Clearwater, the May 9th event which is the Anniversary of the first publication of Dianetics and they do that in LA or Clearwater, then they've got the June 6 event, the maiden voyage anniversary of the Freewinds, and that one only happens at the Freewinds.
MH: They actually go out there, and there are three hundred people on that ship. A lot of people think that ship is like some huge cruise ship. It's like the ‘S.S. Minnow’, compared to any other Princess Cruise line that holds three thousand people. This thing holds three hundred people, the ship. That's the June 6 event. That only gets attended to by OT7s and OT8s, the highest level of auditing in the church. Then you've got the Auditors Day event which happens in September, usually the second week in September and that happens in Clearwater, and then you have the International Association of Scientologists event that happens in October and that happens in the UK. And then you're back to New Years again. Okay, those events have been happening for thirty years, okay. They spend $400,000 - $500,000 to put them on.
MH: And internationally, when they hold one of those events in the main haul where the main event happens they might get three or four thousand people. Then maybe at a few other locations they get maybe like fifty to a hundred people. At the little Orgs they have maybe five or ten people. That adds up, we're seeing the attendance statistics every time one of these events is on, and they're getting maybe ten thousand people, internationally, to attend one of their events every three months. Okay, this is after thirty years. After three months, Anonymous can get ten thousand people to show up every month, and this is for several hours of peaceful protest where you're walking around in the hot sun, and you've got to march from here and take the Metro over here… The church is paying half a million dollars to get people to sit in a seat for an hour and a half and their getting ten thousand people. Anonymous, in three months, has done what's taken the church thirty years to do.
MH: And Anonymous is getting them every month. The church can only get them every three months. So right there, that is a huge, huge perspective that you've got to be able to have going, Anonymous has done in months what's taken them thirty years to do. And that's why I was saying, you've got Anonymous, you've got ten thousand people, and you've got ten thousand Scientologists showing up, those people that go to the events within the church, those are considered the “active” Scientologists. Those are the guys that are going on course, getting auditing and showing up in the local church. All the other people are basically considered “off-line” and considered not-Scientologists, that need to be recovered or whatever. That's why I say there is one Anonymous for every one Scientologist right now. If fifteen thousand people start showing up or twenty thousand people start showing up at the protests, then it'll be two-to-one, or whatever.
MH: Scientology has peaked out. They have events at the Shrine, which is in LA, Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles, and it holds like 4,500 people. They can't even fill that. Los Angeles is the second largest concentration of Scientologists in the world and they can't even fill the Shrine with four thousand people. That's when they have all the staff go as well, you've got 1,100 staff in the Los Angeles or Southern California area, that are showing up at the Shrine as well. Those are the facts, those are the hard statistics on how many people Anonymous gets to show up and how many people Scientology gets to show up. That's why I think Anonymous has been completely effective in what they've done.
MH: And all the different topics, Disconnection and Fair Game, all these things are, those are the buttons. Those are the things. And yeah, David Miscavige, absolutely, Anonymous is the number one thing on his list to deal with right now. And that's the other thing. He hates when he is on the internet. I remember when I was at the Int Base and his picture was on some website and somebody was doing something to him or something like that, he went wacko, wacko.
DO: Do you think he likes the PhotoShop? I have several that I've been waiting to post but ...
MH: I don't know, I've seen so many things, the crudest things I've ever seen with David Miscavige and I'm just laughing my head off when I seem them, and then knowing that if he saw it he would literally be like “Arrrgghh”, but yeah, that is the biggest thing.
MH: He is the big guy in the church and if people in the church want to know something about David Miscavige, anybody does it, if you want to know about something just go to Google and type in their name. When you type in David Miscavige's name on Google, the stuff that comes up, and you go to YouTube, it's insane. So, yeah. The ones with Dave and Tom Cruise flying through the air, one's riding the other, it's just those things. Those are the things that drive him crazy.
DO: Well, I look for ways [Arggh], The cat has pulled out the phone, hang on!
MH: Well, I'm still here ...
DO: I lost you for a second, sorry [laughs]. The cat yanked the phone out of my ear.
MH: Oh, long cat is long!
DO: Well, that cat, our cat is old.
MH: Oh, old cat is old!
DO: He's seventeen years old and looks like an old man. So, I want to question, this is just kind of speculative, what do you think would be the one kind of – I know there is not going to be one thing that is going to destroy the church – what do you think would be the most demoralizing thing at this point for those who are still trapped trying to hold it all together? Is it the [Anonymous] numbers growing? Is it the continuous protests every month?
MH: I think that is the most effective thing because these local churches, they don't make any money right now. They are already empty, they don't have people doing stuff, they're already dragging ass on trying to get anything done, and if they're now spending the majority of their time trying to figure what [to do] when these flash raids happen, that just totally messes with them. When they know that something is going to happen they can basically tell everybody “Don't come to the church this day because there are going to be these SPs spouting Xenu stuff”.
MH: You've got to keep the Xenu stuff going because that's the thing that a Scientologist is not allowed to hear, or not allowed to see, because that's what is in OT3 and Scientologists believe if they hear anything on OT3 before they get to it, then “Warrghh” – they're going to go crazy. Even though, on the internet right now if you go to WikiLeaks they've got like all of the OT levels in one PDF, you could read all of the Scientology confidential things in one sitting right now. And not die or go crazy. So the flashraids are totally, they can't predict them, they don't know when that's going to happen, and when people start showing up going “Xenu Xenu Xenu”. When I was at the Int Base, one guy would show up, one guy shows up with a picket sign that says “Xenu”, we had to stay inside all day and all night until he left!
MH: We couldn't even go outside, they were worried we were going to see his little picket sign that said “Xenu” on it. And, that was it – we couldn't go outside. So the same thing happens when you go to these little local podunk Orgs, they can't have people see “Xenu” and “Body Thetans”. That's another thing, the body thetan thing, most Scientologists know of a thetan and you are a thetan and that is your soul. It's only when you get into the higher OT levels like OT7 and stuff, where you find out, “Oh! You have thousands of alien thetans infecting you, and those are body thetans”. So when you say “Body Thetans”, that's another thing, they can't hear “Body Thetans”, they can't hear “Xenu”, these are all the things that they're not allowed to let their parishioners hear or see. Having these flashraids is just that extra thing that they don't know, they do not know what to do about it.
MH: They have no way to deal with it and it makes it so they are not, they were not making any money before, now it's just like no chance they're going to make any money. So hopefully as more people speak out, more people come forward, more people do interviews or more people put videos up on YouTube, that were in the church and tell what happens, the more people that do that it's going to get really hard for people like Tommy Davis to get on CNN and say there's no such thing as Disconnection. People are going to be like, “Well, why is there a website called 'Scientology Disconnection'? How does that work? Somebody made a whole website about something that doesn't exist?” You know? And there are like ten thousand Google results for “Scientology Disconnection” that talk about all these horrifying stories about families being broken up and all these things.
MH: That is all because there is no such thing as Disconnection? People are going to see right through his bullshit.
DO: Hey, Mark? There's a few people who have questions. One of them was: what's the best way to approach a Scientologist and not scare them, if you really just want to get through to them, so to speak? You know, bridge that gap between scieno-speak and a normal person. You just want to kind of "Hey, how's it going? Let me talk to you a little bit". What do you think the best way, because you were a Scientologist, what would be the most effective way to approach you, in your mindset?
MH: I think that the best thing would be to tell them "Listen, I’m not trying to attack you, the Scientologist, but your leaders or your management are doing things that are against what L Ron Hubbard said to do. They are doing things that they're not telling you about, and there's things going on that are not per what L Ron Hubbard said".
MH: The basic thing that you've got to do to convince a Scientologist is that the Church is doing things that aren't per L. Ron Hubbard's teachings. If they just get that into their head, or they get that little spark or little question mark planted, then they'll get on the internet. As soon as a Scientologist gets on the internet and they start reading stuff, then very, very quickly the house of cards starts to fall apart. Because then they see "Wait a minute, Mark Yeager, the CO/CMO of International is a declared SP, and has been since 2000?", and all these senior people that they know of that are icons in their eyes, when they see this stuff about these people on the internet and when they hear and see the stories about David Miscavige, it’s not going to be a far stretch for them to believe those things.
MH: He’s so hardcore, and there's so many Scientologists that are scared of him or scared to do something for the chance that they might cross his path or do something that he would find out about and then write down. All those kinds of things are things that they would, if they were to get on the internet. But you've got to be totally cool with them. You’ve got to be like “Yo man, dude, listen. These guys are doing stuff that's not per LRH. It's all over the internet, it's not made up stuff, it’s real stuff". That's the first thing that Scientologists say when you say something is that "Oh, that's just some made-up stories on the internet. Those are just stories people make up”. You’ve got to be like "No dude, these ain't stories, dude". Almost all Scientologists know of somebody who got declared and couldn't talk to their family.
MH: They all know of somebody who something has happened to that did seem totally right to them. They all know of some instances, or multiple instances of that. It’s been a long time since this nanny-watcher program was installed on Scientologists computer; pretty much any of them could go to any one of these sites. So, if you say that RTC is off source, or RTC is lying, or Int execs have been declared SPs, any of these things, it’s going to get the Scientologist going "Hmmm". They're going to get curious. 10,000 people don't show up every month for no reason. There’s some reason that's making these people show up.
DO: Well, absolutely. There’s so many questions in this chat room, I can't even...
MH: I know, I’m trying to kind of keep up with them as they come in, and trying to weave them into the dialog.
DO: You’re doing a good job.
MH: The postcard thing. Everyone’s always asking me about these postcards. What’s the deal? Okay, well, yeah, it’s an awesome idea, but you’ve got to dig: anything that gets mailed to the Churches, it gets checked by security before its gets to the person. When I was getting mail, I would get it opened. It gets opened, read and scanned before you even get it. They read through everything. So if somebody writes to you and says "Dude, you’ve got to get out of there, that place is crazy. They worship aliens", that person's never going to see that thing. At least you get the security people, but you’ve got to put Xenu, and you’ve got to tell the whole story of Xenu, and then pretty soon the only security guards that are going to be able to check the mail have to be OT III security guards.
MH: Whatever you send, whatever you do with Scientology, you’ve got to put “Xenu” and “Body Thetans” in there. And that right there circumvents just the normal people being able to deal with it. It’s got to be then handled by on OT III person. But, yeah, they check all the mail. If you mail something out, they check it. They can't talk on the phone, they can't get on the internet; these people have no way of interacting with society. This is at the Int Base, at the other Orgs I don't know. That’s a good question. I’m not so familiar with what happens in London, or what happens in Chicago, but you might send everything in Victoria's Secret packages.
DO: [laughing in background]
MH: The security guards can't open Victoria's Secret packages at the Int Base because of an incident where one of them, or multiple ones of them were perving out. They'd open the packages and try the stuff on. So, they can't open Victoria's...
DO: Are you making that up, Mark?
MH: No, no. There's a whole story behind that, that would take me two hours to tell, but yeah. There's things that have happened with Victoria's Secret packages that have done very good things for people at the Int Base, but that's a whole 'nother story. Anyway, I don't have time because we've only got nine minutes left. Anyway, that's why I’m writing a book, because I’ve got 15 years of stuff to tell and it doesn't fit into an hour here and an hour there, and blogs and posts and all that. Anyway, there's no quick version, dude. The “Xenu”, the “body thetans”, all those kinds of things are things that people can do that'll at least, if the Scientologist gets back to their place, and they do have internet, they can just type it in.
MH: “What's up with the Xenu thing”, and they'll Google it. Then they'll read that and just be like "You’ve got to be kidding, man. Wow, it’s really true, there is this Xenu thing." A lot of the stuff you read on the internet, when you're a Scientologist, as soon as you read it, it all makes sense. You just go "Oh my god. That’s why I couldn't do this, or that's why I could never do this". And once they read the Xenu thing, that's the other thing. Once you read the Xenu thing ... it takes you about a week if you're a Scientologist, after you read it you think you're going to die. So, after about a week and you don't die, you don't get sick, you don't develop tumors or anything, then you go "Well, it's bullshit! Must be bullshit! Because I just read OT3, I haven't gotten any auditing, and I’m not dead, so...” There you go, boom. It’s bullshit and then the whole thing falls apart.
MH: Before I go, I've got to say a few things on people. I myself am a declared Suppressive Person so I can't talk to my family. I can't talk to my mother, her name is Trudy Hensley or Trudy Headley. She lives in Ohio and she won't talk to me because I’m a declared Suppressive Person. My sister worked at Gold, at the Int Base. When I blew Gold in 2005 and left, she was not allowed to talk to me ever again, so I haven't talked to her in three years. I don’t know where she is. I heard from somebody that she might be in Toronto somewhere. I haven’t heard from, I don't know what the deal is with her. My wife's mom, her name is Jen Whitt, she works at Yahoo in Los Angeles, so any Anons that work at Yahoo, get in her ear. She’s got two grandchildren that would love to meet her, and they're her only grandchildren, I might add.
MH: My wife's dad, his name is Hugh Whitt, he's the executive director of the Beverley Hills mission, Scientology Mission. At Christmas 2004, he was getting major shit for crossing something that David Miscavige had done. He was in deep trouble and he told me the story, and his story was a contributive reason of why I ended up saying "Screw this, I’m out of here." His whole family and his whole existence was being threatened by David Miscavige because of just the stupidest thing in the world. Hugh Whitt is his name, and he's got, you got two grandsons, dude, they'd love to see you. Anyway, then my wife's brothers and sisters, her brother Rob Whitt, of La Crescenta, and Kirsten Whitt of La Crescenta, and her other sister Rebecca Whitt that goes to California State University in Northridge, California.
MH: We love you guys, and your sister misses you, and whatever the Cult told you about us is total bullshit, we still love you no matter what. Of course, my dad is totally cool, he's been doing interviews, he's trying to track down my sister. I think that's basically what he's going to do, pretty much, is track down, try and find out what happened to my sister. She's always been a daddy's girl and now because he's not a Scientologist and he talks to me, my sister won't talk to him. He’s been disconnected. The practice of disconnection, the mysterious non-existent practice of Scientology, has now affected him, that he can't speak to his only daughter because he assisted me when I left the Church.
MH: He kind of got caught, which really sucks. It’s kind of like a toss-up. Does he help me, and not talk to her, or does he not help me and then maybe I end up back in the fold? He got caught in the middle of my bullshit and now he can't talk to my sister. So, that's rough. But he's doing all kinds of stuff and he's definitely getting the word out. He, right there, that's a rock-solid fact that disconnection exists. He's not a Scientologist. He never said anything about Scientologists or Scientology. He kind of just played along so he could talk to my sister, and then I leave and then boom, he can't talk to my sister. It’s like, what, how does that work? He didn't do anything, he was just being a dad, and next thing you know, he loses a daughter because of it.
MH: So, anyway, if there's any other questions... I know we've got three or four minutes, so if anybody wants to put anything on the chat there...
DO: It must be hard for your wife, I mean, you've got two small children and that support system... when I talked to Astra the other night, she, her sister Zoe and her dad, it’s essentially just like you. They’ve been cut off from the other half of their family. She has her daughter Kate, and Kate doesn't know her grandmother, she doesn't know her aunts and uncles. All she knows is her grandpa Larry and her mom. How somebody like Tommy Davis can get on there and just flat out lie to people, and that no one questions him. Sure, the CNN guy tried to get him to talk about it, and they have a job to do, they can't really get into a confrontational fight with these guys.
DO: But at some point, mainstream media has got to stand up and say "You guys are lying, you're full of shit. Come clean, you're ruining families". I just want to know when that day is going to happen, because it’s just shocking to me how long this has gone on. I mean, thirty years!
MH: Totally. These guys, when they get interviewed, they're always... Even that guy at CNN, they're kind of lobbing softball questions at them. They don't really... and the Scientologists know that, Tommy Davis knows that, David Miscavige knows that. They're not going to go on some show where they know that they're going to get thrown under the bus and its going to be a total fest, they're not going to do those shows. They make these really, really tight restrictions and say “Listen, these are the questions you can ask, and if you ask any other questions, we're going to take you to the cleaners, and this is it". It's all very, very arranged, and it's very preconceived on what we're going to be able to talk about.
MH: Even when that guy kept, I was waiting, was he going to answer on the Disconnection thing, and sure enough, Tommy does the normal Scientology thing of just talking over him. And then he never answered.
DO: Although, his obnoxiousness showed through. I’m sure anybody who was not familiar with watching that was like "Who is this clown?". Before we run out of live streaming, obviously all of this will be in the archives, I want to say good luck tomorrow, Anonymous. Be careful.
MH: Yeah, I’m going to be there. I’ll be there at the LA protests, so I’ll be there in full force with everybody and yeah. Mark Headley will be at the LA protest and rock on, Anonymous. You guys are awesome.
DO: Definitely. Send me your reports tomorrow. I’m covering all the protests tomorrow, any pictures, any reports, any videos, please send them to me, you can find my information on Glosslip, and thanks again for tuning in.
[[Female announcer voice: "Glosstalk Radio"]]
DO: Mark, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show again, it’s great and you are a great guest. This might be the last one here for a while because you have projects to work on
DO: If you need any help with that, I certainly know people who would be happy – I don't know how far you are in the process, or if you've got a publisher or anything like that – but I know some high-level people who would probably want to help you with that. So just keep that in mind and I’ll be happy to...
MH: Awesome, awesome. I’ll definitely let you know if I need anything and then otherwise, I appreciate everything that you're doing, and just giving ex-Scientologists and ex-staff members a forum. That alone is huge, because a ton of people are going to find out about this stuff because of you.
DO: Well, thanks. I couldn't do it without you guys. You very brave, be careful Mark, and good luck tomorrow.
DO: You’re representing the "ex-" people, and without them, who would we have to inspire us? Thank you so much Mark, you and I will be in contact for next week and we'll talk more. Have a great night, sleep well.
MH: Thank you very much, Dawn. See you guys later.
DO: Cheers. Bye!